FNaF & Undertale: How to/NOT to Tell A Story

[@psi_mae]

I think the issues with Scott’s donations is that the worry of queer phobia hijacked a bigger issue that he did NOT address, and that is racism. Between anti-blm and violent stances from Donald’s trump, to Mitch McConnell being against interracial marriages, to Kimberly Klacik’s anti-Asian and anti police reform rhetoric. The last of whom Scott claimed would be “best for the black community”

[@psi_mae]

Holy Shit thanks for the Pin

[@psi_mae]

*Donald, have no clue why it got instantly corrected to “Donald’s”

[@Torgan454]

I honestly always felt that scott's apology was sarcastic in the first place. LIke what does "I recieved lots of love in the last days from the lgbt community" mean when he was chastised for donating to trump?

[@thestone6324]

What? Why everything has to do with politics? And why just everyone assumes that every person who vote different is somehow fob or ist. Didn’t anyone actually check why certain people vote certain politicians and support certain politics? Maybe they have reason different than just being so called small minded? Maybe certain polititians and people voting for them are right in certain topics? Ever crossed anyone mind to actually think about that? Of course not. Instead having your own mind and gathering information on our own and be skeptical, better listen to TV, celebrities, activists, journalist etc. and just assume everything. Because it is not like people and groups which we support could be wrong on some topics or be govern by bad people right? And I think it is realy open-minded to just assume that all members of certain demographics vote the same, think the same and support the same organizations right? Cause if they don’t that means that they were manipulated into thinking so or are traitors of their own comunity right?

[@prehistoricorchid3455]

I love Scott and all but damn was that such a big blow being BIPOC and queer

[@tegelstenen4178]

I kinda believe that Matpat always realized that Scott Cawthon just made things up as he went, and that that was why he continued to make Fnaf theories. Matpat basically got to become the unofficial lead storywriter for the series whenever he made a video Scott liked.

[@thegombagamer0224]

That's just a theory...

[@graveyardoperations7407]

@@thegombagamer0224 A MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL BUSINESS AND FINANCIAL THEORY!

[@theautistictomboy4003]

Yeah, I initially hated Matt for it but then I kind of realised it's Scott's terrible self control.

[@b.a.r.f1004]

@@theautistictomboy4003 who are you to say that he should stop?

[@theautistictomboy4003]

@@b.a.r.f1004 well I can’t physically stop him. But I can say he should’ve.

[@indiana47]

1:06:20 MatPat actually said it great in his Hello Neighbor theory. Let them be right. It is okay for fans to figure it out and for their theories to be proven true. You don't need to retcon things just to make theorists wrong.

[@ExarchGaming]

on the inverse, changing your plot to cater to the theorist community is often times pretty bad for the story. There are also devs who will release a game just to try and get MatPat's attention, because clout is one hell of a drug.

[@Awesomeness-iz3dh]

So many storytellers think they have to surprise their fans, that it's some sort of battle of wits. This is not the case. In fact, I'd argue, more than anything, that if your story isn't satisfying when you see the end coming, you've made a bad story.

[@vex6517]

exactly what the pretty little liars writers did wrong

[@loodgack]

too bad he was wrong in those HN theory videos. he got, like 2 things right and that's it

[@justsam4321]

​@@loodgackand yet, the HN dev team were so desperate for his attention

[@quinnhascrashed1388]

Your point about Toy Chicas beak being a retcon is made even funnier buy the fact that, the only context in which the mini games Chicas beak being missing being reverent is dream theory. Which Is a theory that was explicitly retconned by Scott

[@guidedexplosiveprojectileg9943]

Toy Chica is a straight up baddy

[@graysongdl]

What's dream theory? If that's a name for a FNaF theory, then unfortunately it shares its name with an entire genre of theories across literally all media, then I probably wouldn't be able to find it with a Google search. Trying yields results for multiple separate theories. I've always wondered what the deal with that "clue" was, so if it's relevant to something that got retconned, I'd love to know what it was.

[@sora_animates_sometimes]

​@@graysongdlfrom what i remember dream theory was made when fnaf 4 was going to be the last game. the theory was every fnaf game was just dreams/nightmares created by the main character we play in fnaf 4 (from being scared of fredbears dinner and hearing rumours from other kids) And the only real parts was the cutscenes during fnaf 4. It would give reason it all the wierdness or mistakes/retcons throughout the first 4 games, but the fans did not like this theory so it believed that scott noticed this and decided to instead continue the story with sister location to fnaf pizzeria simulator (+unc) And then steal wolf studios took it from there :)

[@graysongdl]

@@sora_animates_sometimes Ah, so the reason for the generic name is because it literally is your stock standard average dream theory? I sincerely hope Scott was never ACTUALLY planning for something that bad to be the true ending to the series...

[@JGLMAO]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@graysongdltbf dream theory was credible and did make sense. At least more sense than what we have now.

[@namelesspersonakaneonwaffles]

I like how Toby Fox used the power of friendship to create a game about the power of friendship. Now he's making a game about dreams with the power of That One Dream

[@Entity.null9]

But it’s just a theory

[@ibis03]

​@@Entity.null9A GAME THEORY

[@Entity.null9]

@@ibis03 THANK YOU DO F***ING MUCH FOR GETTING IT

[@kindofkool5460]

@@Entity.null9 i think even people who live under a rock would get it

[@Entity.null9]

@kindofkool5460 it took a week or two. I was worried it would go unnoticed

[@ghosteaparties1764]

I always thought that FNaF has what I like to call Schrodinger's Lore. Scott makes implications about the lore, looks at how the fandom reacts at what he intended, and based on the reception he changes it up.

[@wyster14]

Like burntrap

[@thegreatBarbossa]

Scott is such a people-pleaser it genuinely harms his entire franchise. Whenever the fandom doesn't like something, he very clearly overfixates on "correcting" that. Hell the guy made like 3 games just to "fix" things people didn't like about the last one. I'm no psychologist or anything but I think it's because all his previous failures as a game dev have made him somewhat insecure.

[@Rabid_Nationalist]

Yeah. The dream theory is the perfect example for that. Proof of it was definitly in the box, but the fans were dissapointed so he decided against it and made SL.

[@PixieLem0nz]

I’m p sure he literally said that at one point. He did what he wanted to sometimes but he mostly listened to feedback. What a guy man. We basically have Like weird AU fanfics coming to life on Walmart bookshelves because this dude is so dedicated to keeping his fans happy and hearing their opinions.

[@counterfeit1148]

I don't know if the lore is one way or another until I watch inside the feedback

[@_pitako]

The problem I think Scott has is he is obsessed with the mystery surrounding his games, he forgot the point in giving something a mystery. He forgot that the point in having a mystery is other people solving it, so whenever someone gets close to solving it he changes it to preserve the mystery

[@dittomaster2141]

Ah so he made Lost

[@8is]

I don't think Scott actually changed the story based on any fan reception. He made multiple new installments in the series where he intended it to be the final one. That's why the story as we understood it at the release of Fnaf2, Fnaf3, Fnaf4 and Pizza simulator/UCN were all coherent but different since the story changed based on new context from the new game. We had the ability to understand one game, but when Scott decided to make a new one, he made the decision to tell a new story with the old content to tie all the games together. There are pros and cons to this very unique way of telling a story. A pro is that it ties the entire franchise together while still telling something new, but a con is that it retcons the old story, which people might've gotten attached to. Regardless, it still fanf, which is why people stuck with it regardless, which is why people still argue about which story they liked the most and discuss whatever the hell the newest game is trying to say about the entire franchise as a whole.

[@TalpaTulpa]

@@8isthere is evidence he did, but your point is also true

[@SquareViking]

​@@dittomaster2141Scott, Ryan Johnson and J.J. Lensflare must share notes.

[@VampiricBard]

@@dittomaster2141 DAMN you beat me to it. 🤣 Lost has to be one of the most disappointing series of all time

[@lor5827]

41:18 Undertale actually uses Gamemaker instead of RPG Maker, which is also the reason why Toby managed to put his games on platforms like the nintendo switch so early on (He even worked with the people behind the engine to make undertale one of the first Switch games made in Gamemaker)

[@hyperexorcist1129]

Ngl the fact he got that wrong made me mad

[@GlitchyPixExtra]

​@@hyperexorcist1129Why? It was a simple mistake, it's not that big of a deal

[@IamEscBoy]

bump

[@baked_horse]

​@@Beowolf-jy5rc I agree it's not a big deal and it's an 8bit style so they look similar. However being someone who has used both GameMaker and RPG Maker, its really easy to tell the differences between the two, especially with Undertale. At least with the old RPG Makers.

[@baked_horse]

@@Beowolf-jy5rc RPG maker is more easier for creating an RPG (kinda obvious by its name). It's like a framework as a lot of the systems of an RPG is in place. Personally though, I like GameMaker more as its way more of a blank slate for anything you want to do. When it comes to RPG though, you need to code and design your own systems. Such as the Fights, textboxes, etc etc. Both of them are designed to be beginner friendly. Only real things I don't like are some limitations for the more nerdy complex stuff and GameMaker's specifically being subscription based for exporting games. For anything 3D however, I'd recommend Godot, or Unity/Unreal if you're more comfortable with a little more complex engines. Its possible to do 3D in GameMaker but its not really designed for it.

[@danhatter6823]

Undertale is a testament to the idea that anyone can create a game. It is one of the most well-received games ever made, but if you show it to any coder worth their salt, they’ll tell you how horribly it’s made. Five checks for one value, only to set the same value to zero, then check it again, hundreds of lines under a single “if” statement, yet many people, myself included, think of it as one of the best games ever made. It doesn’t matter if someone could do it better. No one is going to, unless you do it first. The Wright brothers made the worst airplane, when you think about it. Go make the game. Go jerry-rig some code together to make your game work, because no one is going to care how well you’ve made the game, as long as you put your heart and soul into it, because THAT is what people will see.

[@Nevernamed]

People will always forgive bad code if that bad code isn't 'visible' in the end product. At least, that's what I tell myself to quell the programmer anxiety.

[@EpicGamer-fl7fn]

its impressive to me how stable this game really is despite it barely holding it together "under the hood" so to speak. For years i thought that it was coded properly, until someone finally decompiled it and showed everyone the code and....yeah jesus fucking christ even i can code it better than that and i only have a year of experience in game maker. Not to emntion how the whole "game remembers you" mechanic of the game which further empowered this feeling that whoever programmed this game is a fucking genius. it actually makes me more confident in my own "outside the box" ideas too since if he managed to pull his dieas off, why cant i?

[@somethingwithbungalows]

@@EpicGamer-fl7fn stealing the exasperated statement “….yeah jesus fucking christ…” for future use

[@TomoLamp]

RAAAAAAAH THE WRIGHT BROTHERS DIDNT INVENT SHIT RAAAAAH

[@ohmygodmateitbearinnitkid9251]

@@TomoLamp they invented angry birds that's what they did

[@thenosternook]

"Evidentially he played it too" made me laugh my ass off Was really excited for this because of FNAF and the story around it feels like a first time dungeon master's first plot point slowly changing overtime causing contradiction and continuity errors. Wanted to see your viewpoints on that.

[@Notkryo]

Don't get me wrong, these characters will always have a special place in my heart. But damn did FNaF's storyline go to shit after 4, it just became too cryptic. It proves being cryptic isn't always a good thing, like we still don't even know what the hell the main characters name is in the Fourth game let alone who they are. It's so fucking stupid. To me it's honestly more fun just participating in the fanbase (The good part) As a hobby because I basically gave up on the actual storyline like Four years ago with the release of Help Wanted. That game has to have the most stupid story in the entire world.

[@thenosternook]

@@Notkryo I know Scott not having much of a plan meant that any first time real story teller (like a first time DM) would change their plans for the series and have new contradicting ideas for the story but since he hasn't explained anything or de canonized the contradictions the lore has become a big mess. Especially with the apparent mindset of changing the story every time a status quo is found. It's the problem with improvisation. In DMing in general you need to have planned improvisation to move smoothly. Setting up key events characters and ideas but keeping the options open for your players potentially improvising to their ideas and theories but still keeping the structure of the storyline intact and it feels to me Scott cared more about having a fun time and implementing cool things than making any sort of structure leaving people searching for a succinct story that simply doesn't exist at this point of time.

[@MicaW4VE]

​@@Notkryofnaf 1-6 tells a pretty coherent story when u put it all together, past that when u get into computer viruses with Williams consciousness Inbedded inside it is when the story gets wonky

[@Notkryo]

@@MicaW4VE 4-6 were the best games gameplay wise imo, and the FNaF 6 ending was fire (lmao). But the lore got a bit too messed up after 4. But it was still a bit coherent. Unlike people turning into computer viruses.

[@gaminganimators7000]

​@@MicaW4VEapparently it's not actually William but an AI designed to mimic things and it's apparently sentient now or something and wants to become William? Idk, both options are dumb

[@CGFillertext]

tbh, another reason why FNAF’s lore got so messy is that Scott Cawthon just started putting in sci-fi elements (probably due to the Scott Cawthon Rule of Cool). What was once the spirits of children whose souls couldn’t rest, became endoskeletons infused with super ghost metal (that could be infused into other stuff for all kinds of wacky effects). What once was a mysterious random murderer at a pizzeria became a mad scientist supergenius who just can’t seem to die.

[@najpotenicewolf934]

It's probably why I eventually lost interest. For the first 4 games, it was just mostly a murder mystery in a Pizzeria setting and some paranormal stuff. But it became far too convoluted for me when some sci-fi technology came into the picture. It just came too much across of what many original fans of the franchise imagined and expected.

[@Robin-234]

​​@@genericname2747pardon me if I'm wrong but doesn't security breach take place in like 2050? How did we get here (I say, as someone who is fully aware of how we got here).

[@davidkonevky7372]

This is why I lowkey have a lot of gripe towards Fnaf SL. As much as the reveal of the funtime animatronics was cool at the time, going from a vintage pizzeria with low budget animatronics to high tech robots with nonsensical yet impressive technological features was what changed the game for the worst. And the fact that i'm expected to believe all that technology existed before THE INTERNET is what gives me a sour taste

[@yetanotherphotoaccount]

we went from which fnaf character are you quizzes where you would get freddy or something to which fnaf character are you quizzes that would get you that annoying robot thing in ucn that i dont remember the name of that im pretty sure is related to candy in some way

[@GeorgeDCowley]

No comma before "became".

[@Transference90]

One thing people forget now, because it's been spoiled to death, is that Genocide Route is not a "third ending." It's supposed to be the secret dark ending you find after exploring everything else possible. To be at the point in your exploration were you wonder, "what if I try to max out my LV in the first area?"

[@hayond656]

Yeah like if you just Kill The few you encounter trying to go as fast as possible to the next room It won't activate Genocide would it? Because the kill counter wouldn't appear?

[@4notherguy]

Yes, Genocide is not the final ending, it's supposed to be a creepy secret.

[@chineseobama6043]

You're even punished for doing the genocide route, you'll never have a true pacifist run afterwards. You ruined everything, the game does alot and gives you many chances to not do this, so it's all your fault. Flowey/Asriel literally asks the player to let Frisk live their life and not reset the timeline. It is the route you shouldn't do.

[@siduxjxhdgzhdjxhxuuxxyhgg1079]

​@@chineseobama6043i feel like its reverse psychology

[@superdoofus]

@@hayond656right. to activate (and maintain) genocide you have to pace around the same set of rooms to get every possible encounter, which you would never get just cruising through normally. even if you linger in an area for a while, there’s a very small chance of accidentally commencing genocide. there’s just so much grinding required early on that it practically has to be a deliberate choice after exhausting every other option in the game & being familiar with its mechanics

[@probablywrong3816]

For anyone writing a story, and you have people theorizing or guessing whats going to happen next and they get it right, *don't fucking change it,* save for consistency issues or the like. You did it! You wrote a story with a clear path or breadcrumbs in the right way! You told a good fucking story! You're not a bad author if people figure it out early. You're a good writer, or your readers or smart, and more than likely it's a bit of both but more importantly *you have people engaging and enjoying what you put out enough to try and unravel it.* That's good. "Oh, but that spoils it" sure, but you know what else it does? Make the readers feel smart and cool for figuring it out. Just don't twist your stories if people figure them out early. Please.

[@MCTogs]

The sad thing is even if they did figure it out, it doesn't even mean that the story has to end. Scott could have fleshed out aspects of the story and given more things for people to think about without it necessarily being some mystery.

[@kokirij0167]

I ran a D&D campaign where I had a friend figure out a kind of important plot point about halfway before the plot twist. I felt great but also panicked a little because what if he followed that gut instinct? Turns out I didn't need to worry because various scheduling conflicts made the campaign fizzle out

[@demothiguillermo2059]

Scott never said he changed the story because of theories, he only said he was "inconvenieced" by theories and the only thing he said he did change was the contents of the box because he was worried it wouldn't be satisfying.

[@justradiclesandco]

@@kokirij0167 I’d say that you should be proud that your friend figured it out. You crafted the story well enough that they were able to pick up on the hints and characters you created, and he’s able to influence the campaign and help push it forward, giving you more to work with and more fun for everyone. Too bad it fizzled out, but it’s definitely great that you did a good job at crafting the story

[@clark5426]

Where is the right balance between leaving breadcrumbs, build ups and cliffhanger to predictable and easily read in writing?

[@obliviongigan6360]

I always felt that if fnaf wasn't Scott last attempt at making video game before quitting and if he was a bit younger he could actually develop fnaf in a more clear and captivating story. With all of that being said I still enjoy fnaf for what it is.

[@highdefinition450]

they were clearly not meant to have a story lol they're just an neat idea for a horror game. didn't have to be more than that

[@davidkonevky7372]

​@@LebeanzErYTFNAF 1 story is really basic, it can be shortened to 5 articles, a golden recolor of a character, a spooky ooky phrase (It's me) and a phone call. It's not until fnaf 2 where scott tries to give it a little more flesh

[@comyuse9103]

@@LebeanzErYT you're kidding, yeah? there is nothing behind most conspiracy theories; no ice wall at the edge of the world, no entry into the hollow earth, no technology capable of faking the moon landing. stupid people will glom onto anything that can make them feel smart, and that is easiest if there isn't any substance, freeing something up to project their own insanity onto it.

[@yetanotherphotoaccount]

@@davidkonevky7372 no im pretty sure fnaf 3 gave the story more flesh considering you see it on the springtrap model although im not a flesh expert so it might be visible in previous installments

[@camila1925]

Fr, fnaf was sort of the last hope for Scott’s career and well being, I’m happy he managed to work it out but I also wished he stopped being such a people pleaser, it would make his story much better

[@marcelinepink]

the fact that Toby considered Undertale a stepping stone towards creating Deltarune makes me incredibly hopeful of the game's future. Imagine creating one of the most influential narrative-based videogames of all time just because you wanted to prove to yourself that you could create a game based on a dream you had.

[@IAmTheJellyBeanRock]

That’s fucking awesome

[@pungoblin9377]

It’s like if we found out that Jesus was using his sacrifice as a stepping stone to the resurrection

[@yourtimetraveleralara]

Yeah me too

[@cometojesus6983]

@@pungoblin9377 w Jesus

[@eddie-roo]

iirc Undertale has about 6 hours of gameplay, while Deltarune chapter 1 alone is already 3 hours long. The whole game is going to be a behemoth of a game.

[@toonvoid856]

I don’t think anyone fully understands how complicated FNAF is now. To fully grasp this, I’m gonna say one single sentence that still continues to be baffling how this is a plot point worth discussing: Are the first 4 games cannon?

[@Depressed_Dandelion]

Oh, and that "still" part is iffy, because, remember... the first 4 games' canonicity have been questioned not once, but _TWICE._

[@obnoxas]

The question is not IF they're cannon, but HOW they're cannon. They definitely exist, and whatever story is told in those 4 games are cannon to those games. BUT they might not be cannon to the wider narrative due to them being in universe games. Oh fuck oh shit what if Glitchtrap is a culmination of Purple Guy from the first 4 games and doing that shit, possibly via The Mimic. I literally had this thought while writing this comment.

[@kristianperez4108]

Canon to what is what you should be asking.

[@diamondguycarlosortega4075]

Yes

[@roxelpop_]

I assume you're referring to how HW introduced the rogue indie-game developer and how he created the first four games in-universe.This has always been a confusing point honestly, but I do have an attempt at a take: My take has always been that even though the games themselves were created in-universe by that rogue indie-game dev, it doesn't mean that the events depicted within them aren't canon. Remember in HW Tapegirl says that Fazbear Entertainment hired the game dev to make light of what happened at the restaurants. This implies that the events that happen in the games are based on things the dev has heard about Fazbear Entertainment, the missing kids, the bite, security guards complaining about animatronics trying to getting into their office, I think those are all real things that have happened, the game dev just made games based on those events. It's like a movie that's based on a true story, the movie itself may be fake and things that happened in the movie may not be 100% accurate to what actually happened irl, but overall the main story beats are real events. Honestly this whole "ohh the fnaf games exist in-universe" plotpoint is really stupid to begin with so I'm just trying my best to make sense of it here, I have no idea why Scott decided to make this a thing.

[@iamseamonkey6688]

"There are no holes in the plot, only holes in your understanding" is such a smug and condescending thing to say that im amazed he didnt stop and think before clicking post

[@LowProfile0247]

People are still trying to praise scott or call him a chad in the comments while hes a literal sham thats also an awful person helping other awful people.

[@dummy1o2u]

I feel like it was meant to be a joke but.. ...fuck with some of the things he's done I have my doubts.

[@tarantula-sb7og]

Nah we don't have holes in are understandings. Scott just has holes in his franchise

[@murakami2346]

@@LowProfile0247 what other awful people? you mean the donation? you do know scott used to make Christian games and animated shows before this whole fnaf thing, no?

[@viscera8442]

​@@murakami2346yes, they watched the same video you did.

[@aircraftcarrierwo-class]

I appreciate Hatsune Miku's involvement in Toby Fox's history as a game creator and composer.

[@flamingpi2245]

Miku made homestuck

[@ultimaxkom8728]

There's a cute pipebomb in your mailbox.

[@steamoreeno]

​@@ultimaxkom8728:3

[@WhimsicalGobelin]

@@ultimaxkom8728 OOoo, pipebomb, so cool

[@nosyDetective]

@@ultimaxkom8728 omg just like Jane Crocker in hit webcomic Homestuck!

[@benimel3204]

As a catholic it blows my mind that Pope Francis has an Undertale copy and that a couple performers played Megolavania in front of him. It honestly makes me wonder were they keep that copy in Vatican city and if the pope has touched it since Matpat gave it to him.

[@hobobobeatsturtles8458]

In my mind, I like to think he's blessed it

[@Hambo325]

Unfortunately the copy of the game was a steam key

[@Humanresouces]

So that's what's in the Vatican Archives.

[@Dekubud]

As an ex-Catholic who thinks Pope Francis is the best Pope by a long shot, I believe he would definitely love the game. He's a kind-hearted man who truly cares about people after all.

[@benimel3204]

@@Dekubud I think your right, the Pope would consider undertale a very Christ like game due to its non violent message and emphasize on common humanity. He was born in the 30’s however so it would probably confuse him in many areas (as well as the concept of a video game in general).

[@25bitgamerx36]

39:00 i love asgore's fight because there's so much buildup, you get there, meet one of the nicest named characters in the entire fuckin game, and then he BREAKS YOUR GODDAMN MERCY BUTTON AND HITS YOU WITH THE *h a r d e s t* BEAT DROP IN ANY RPG I'VE EVER PLAYED LIKE HOLY SHI-

[@complex2live]

It even has that Easter egg, where if you use the butterscotch pie in battle, it gets down all of his defenses because he immediately recognizes it as Toriel's. It's beautiful that he knows that he will most likely not be forgiven or have redemption, but it shows that he does in fact have emotion and does feel remorse.

[@loganbreau882]

What I love about the Asgore fight is that he destroys the Mercy button not because “he wants to kill all humans.” Instead he destroys it because he doesn’t believe HE DESERVES MERCY.

[@peccantis]

"I have every intention to kill you and use your soul. At least pretend to fight me back."

[@loganbreau882]

@@peccantis he will kill any human that falls down for his people, but he doesn’t want to do it. He wants you to kill him so that he can pay for his sins and so that he doesn’t have to go back to war again. However he needs to go out as a martyr or else he risks Monster Kind losing hope and giving up. If Asgore kills himself, then Monsters will quickly follow. If Asgore tries to step back from all out war, then Monsters will believe freedom will never come. However if Asgore dies to a Human, then even if all the souls are lost, Monsters will bounce back. He wants to die, but he doesn’t want all Monsterkind to follow him to the grave.

[@fedethegreat88]

​@@peccantisHe doesn't, if you keep using the "talk" ACT while being on Pacifist he will lower his attack and defense, because he doesn't want to kill a human that killed noone and refused to hurt him even after he destroyed the Mercy button, so he hopes you will kill him first. He will also ALWAYS leave you on 1 hp, even if the attack should've killed you, because he hopes you will survive

[@SuperMonaLisaBros]

Mood.

[@Tralfazz74]

Toby fox is an inspired storyteller, game designer, and musician who works to create something he wants. Scott Cawthon is an experienced environment crafter who's setpieces got misinterpreted as story beats, and he just rolled with it.

[@JustCallMeEmily]

Scott Cawthon is Andrew Hussie if Andrew Hussie was a furry and not a clown. (I will stand by this claim)

[@thedarkroom6416]

While I think this is partially true I do think that Scott did create actual lore and used some stuff from fan feedback

[@thedarkroom6416]

@@JustCallMeEmilyLol I don’t entirely agree but lol

[@Tralfazz74]

@@thedarkroom6416 Yeah, I shortened that whole part into "he just rolled with it". He certainly had fun making up the story

[@JammyJam5588]

It feels less as if he just rolled with it, and moreso as if his Ego guided him. He still has yet to admit fault in his storytelling, despite being more than ready for retirement, and the movie holds similar flaws to his game plots. He takes criticisms out of fear, and frustration not out of understanding or learning.

[@ChatookaMusic]

I would argue the potential that Matpat "inconveniencing" Scott could also be the classic case of the theory being a better story than the actual truth and scott changing course because he took it as proof that the fans wouldnt be satisfied with his original intentions. I'm pretty sure he straight up admitted that was why he originally changed the contents of the box

[@mrsurge4789]

Scott’s several claims of how the fandom wouldn’t be satisfied with the actual answer reminds me of how rabid the fanbase was in its inception

[@eragons1894]

So basically... Matpat might've been the better storywriter than Scott? I find that kind of hilarious!

[@OlgaZuccati]

"There are no holes in the plot, only holes in your understanding" is probably the last thing a serious storyteller would say about their own story.

[@doomawsogaming]

It seems as though Scott isn't the storyteller. It seems we are the storytellers, and he is the listener

[@crosssans9984]

boblox man@@doomawsogaming

[@doomawsogaming]

@crosssans9984 yes my profile picture is the avatar of the first roblox account I made when I was 9 and playing roblox on the library computer

[@sosiskaKi]

Thomas Astruk vibes.

[@Iamnottheplatypus]

Yeah.

[@ApexGale]

My favorite part of Deltarune episode 2 is how Toby immediately subverts the whole horror aspect of episode 1's ending by showing you exactly what Kris does with the knife. The game immediately opens as if Kris is attacking Toriel, only to then discover Kris used that knife to cut pie. But then when you reach the ending, Toby switches it up again. Kris isn't some evil Chara clone - they've been using the knife to create Dark Worlds in various locations around town. It shows Toby's understanding of his audience, as well as marks a clear and distinct line in the sand. This is not going to be Undertale 2. This character is not a clone of an existing one from Toby's previous game. This character has motivations that are unclear to us.

[@laytonjr6601]

The Dark World in the library must have been created while Noelle and Berdly were still inside, which means Kris can't have created this one

[@mxcrro]

Tbh deltarune lore about like the knight and stuff is really confusing

[@ApexGale]

@@mxcrro because the full game isn't out yet, of course it's confusing

[@ThatKeyGuy]

@@mxcrrodeltarune is far from finished, so imagine the confusion when fnaf 2 came out.

[@crimsondespair_9505]

@@laytonjr6601 Is there any proof that it had to be created while they were in the library? I mean, wouldn't they know the identity of the Knight if they saw them creating it in front of them?

[@GinaDriedUp]

Finding out that Scott Cawthon may also be responsible for the Globglogabgalab made me do the hardest double take I've ever done in my life.

[@emmaginative]

SAME

[@Faunadude]

SAMEEEEEE

[@marenara3212]

I LISTENED TO THIS AS A PODCAST AND LAUGHED OUT LOUD WHEN I HEARD IT

[@Faunadude]

@@marenara3212 SAME

[@jc_art_]

Ive been using this as a 'fun-fact!' ever since this video. Back in 2018-2019 when the globgoglobgolab was popular as a meme, i think i may have heard about the scott cawthon thing but it hadnt been any kind of big deal at the time?

[@averyjeanne]

I haven’t played Undertale in 6 years (I really don’t play video games at all anymore) but it has stuck with me so much. Specifically I think about “despite everything it’s still you” at least once a week. It’s a beautiful game and I’m so glad I played it during such a formative period of my life.

[@justradiclesandco]

Same here! The game was really inspiring to little preteen me, and the messages stuck with me. It’s a fascinating game, and brought so many good memories!

[@yeturs69420]

Something about that phrase has absolutely stuck with me. Love that.

[@frostrose8550]

Hi! I'm playing it for the first time right now (I have watched many, many playthroughs though) and I truly think about that phrase at least onca a day. It also will be the first game other than minecraft that I've ever played, so I'm excited for that. and terrified. I keep dying, but thats okay. sorry for this ramble it is almost two in the morning 👍

[@hamiham125]

same! i haven't played it in years, but undertale was so important to me in so many ways, that when he started talking about the endings and i heard the music, i got this 👌close to crying... and then i went i bought it on steam to replay it lmao

[@nadiarey4196]

I agree with this sentiment a lot. And thank you, for reminding me of the experience of playing it

[@frimi8593]

Considering that Deltarune literally came to him in a dream, it could be accurate to say that Toby's work is more so the result of divine inspiration than Scott's

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

It's gay though. So it's more like some weird pagan dream.

[@Hugealligator254]

Toby’s patron is trying to publish his fan fiction anonymously

[@idioticlight]

@@Very_Silly_Individual god decided convincing his followers to not killng people directly wouldnt work and that an indie game would be more efficient

[@louzo5175]

eh its just ur theory that god doesnt like gay ppl why would he create them like that n complain about it lol@@Very_Silly_Individual

[@BarioIDL]

nah it's his yume nikki

[@Lunar_Spell]

"There are no holes in the plot" My guy, your plot makes a spider's web look like a fallout shelter.

[@Kunuts]

Your plot holes make craters look like snake holes

[@bob_marlee03]

Your holes have some plot in them (no not those holes)

[@theencolony5595]

​@@bob_marlee03 (SPECIFICALLY those holes)

[@typo1345]

Sir, I applaud your excellent burn skills, this one is gold

[@As8bakwTheSage]

This is a baller line, Lunar_Spell. Seriously that’s some damn good alliteration right there.

[@chaosbeam4654]

One thing Toby has over cawthon is he actually knows when to end a story. Fnaf has been going on and on, and had two opportunities for the story to have a fitting ending, 3 and pizza simulator/custom night. But it’s still going, and it’s clear not even he knows what this story is supposed to be about anymore.

[@ElysiaEsper]

and also the endings of Undertale are satisfying, or they feel solid at least. even the cliffhangers of Chapter 1 and 2 don't feel disappointing. it just makes players more excited for what comes next.

[@breadbugking]

Too be fair, fnaf 6/ucn did finish the story as far as our understanding goes. Yes theres security breach and the like, but they are all part of a "new story". Same timeline about different things. Fnaf 6/ucn ended the William afton saga and gave way for the new glitchtrap ar saga stuff.

[@troin3925]

@@breadbugking I considered the games post UCN to be a soft reboot/sequel storyline like how the Dark Aether storyline was a sequel to the Aether storyline.

[@G-Cole-01]

I think that one of the things that Deltarune does better than FNaF in terms of handling multi-installment stories is that Deltarune already had an outline on where it ends elaborated to the audience through the chapter selection screen. As @ElysiaEsper mentioned, while Deltarune does have cliffhangers, it doesn't feel like a "happy ending got ruined by the latest plot contrivance" type thing because we already know that Deltarune physically cannot end on Chapter 2 out of what we know will be 7, so instead it's framed more as "something's going to happen and it's going to be absolutely wacko." FNaF seems to work more on the idea of "start planning on what to do next after you've finished the latest game." This somewhat worked in the short-term, but as someone who tried to write what ended up being the most cursed Deltarune fanfiction ever like that, once you get past like 3 installments you end up writing yourself into more corners at once than exist in an 8-demicube. Once one ends up there, they have to start cutting said corners with this neat trick called "retroactive-continuity." After too much retconning, however, you end up with the absolute spaghetti that is FNaF's story and lore.

[@pedroivog.s.6870]

Isn't the film going to be the very last FNAF related project?

[@SoicAngellis]

I feel like one of the biggest things; Scott made the first game in the FNAF franchise as a semi desperate move to try to finally reach success Toby made his as a test, all the while planning his TRUE dream game.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

His dream game is significantly worse than his "test." Sorry, not sorry. His test was the greatest thing he'll ever create. What happened is that both creators got extremely lucky, and Scott ran with that luck as far as he could. Toby didn't.

[@vineoo5622]

@@Very_Silly_Individual how is deltarune far worse when it has just been 2 chapters and already had such depth in the story

[@dyphonix]

@@Very_Silly_Individual deltarune is under 30% completed, and it is already almost as long as undertale is, has an intriguing story, a soundtrack easily matching UT in quality, is funny, has interesting characters and fun gameplay.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

@@vineoo5622 Why isn't it finished? As we all know, Scott Cawthon produced a massive franchise while Toby released 1.2 games. I'm not trying to make Toby seem like an incompetent lazy douche or something. He can take as much time as he needs. I don't care. But it is clear as day that Scott cawthon is simply a superior developer to him, as he again built a franchise while Toby was working on just his second game.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

@@dyphonix To counter that. It shouldn't be taking this long to complete. The game is not nearly as compelling as fans make it out to be, undertale, at least so far, is far superior. But even that game took a ridiculously long time to produce. Toby can take as much time as he wants. But I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that's going to do him any good. People lose interest and grow up. The 12 year olds who became fans of undertale are 20 now. And all they've gotten, in 8 years, is what essentially amounts to a parody of undertale.

[@shockdoggo6889]

Never before have i seen somebody so perfectly point out the frustrations and annoyances me and many others feel about fnafs story. Its something you want yo solve and make sense of so badly, but its physically impossible to do so because of how nonsensical and convoluted it is now.

[@EepyBoyo]

Well you can with first 6 games like it's straight up been solved the only frustrating part is the new story which isn't even over so it might redeem itself at the end

[@davidkonevky7372]

​@@EepyBoyowell that's the point of this entire video! people said that about fnaf 4 when fnaf SL came out. People said that about fnaf 2 when fnaf 3 came out. Even scott himself said that game theory had the lore Almost figured out on one of the older videos of his. And if you look at that video the lore looks NOTHING like it does now

[@yetanotherphotoaccount]

i already did the heavy lifting for yall you js a god spectating some rando and ur graphics are glitching and ur seeing multiple universes at once and every single piece of lore that has ever been unconfirmed confirmed or just ignored for any reason is all canon js in different universes

[@group555_]

You still can make sense of it. The story might have changed with new instalments but there still is a story. Matpat recently made an entire timeline that seems really solid. This is what storytelling by the seem of your pants looks like when taken to the extreme. If you don't like that that's fine but don't go hating on scot for not doing the story exactly how you want it

[@yetanotherphotoaccount]

@@group555_ you CAN make sense of anything but it doesnt mean that its entirely logical when making that sense however yes i agree with you i was just pointing out that its very easy to make things make sense without it being very logical

[@phantomkitten73]

1. I am legit subscribed to hundreds of other video essayists, and I don't think there's a single one of them that makes me laugh as consistantly as you. Spaceman Scott has my exact comedic rhythm. 2. The Bendy franchise is such an interesting case study for this, because Ink Machine (the first game) is very much in the FNaF style of storytelling, figuring out it's story as it goes chapter by chapter; and it was pretty confusing, and the community couldn't quite make heads or tails of the ending. And then Dark Revival came out, and it was this beautiful follow up that answered basically all the questions of the first, while telling it's own interesting, emotional, and narratively satisfying story. Proving that this convuluted lore-based style of storytelling can work, as long as you have the willpower to finalize it before it gets out of hand. 3. Undertale was made in GameMaker Studio not RPG Maker.

[@solairedude7119]

Bendy figured out its storytelling with the higher ups roleplaying as Joey Drew with their treatment of employees

[@nonymouswisp8176]

The comedy also works because he breaks his narrerator voic3

[@DoodFloof]

dark revival was a massive glowup for BATIM fr

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

At least Bendy's creators were straightforward about it. They came out and admitted they were taking their favorite fan theories and putting them in the game. And the ending did make sense... it was how we got there that didn't. Although I totally agree with you about Dark Revival. Just like Portal. The sequel is so much better than the original. And it MAKES the original better in retrospect... and the lore is amazing, now that the missing pieces have been provided. It's awesome.

[@demetriam2408]

The only thing DR didn't improve was the gameplay, imo. Both are basically just fetch quests with no puzzles or enticing fighting mechanics.

[@prominent_ire]

I think you answered why the bite of 83 exists in the later segment of how Scott comes up with design/plot choices. He thought it would be cool to fool everyone that played it. By showing a bite, everything would think it would be the bite of 87, and he thought it would be a cool twist if it wasn't without thinking about the actual plot implications. At least, that's the most logical conclusion I could come up with because having a different bite makes no sense otherwise

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

I used to do that - when I was between the ages of 11 and maybe 14.

[@ElFreakinCid]

I mean, you're not wrong, he definitely pulled a fast one on everyone with that bite, and I think, like many decisions, he did it entirely to fuck with MatPat. The most legendary reaction to it, however, ended up being Markiplier's.

[@rafsandomierz5313]

Well if it was the bite of 87 it would be contradiction in the storytelling since Phone guy and Fnaf 2 say that it has happened in Freddy's restaurant not in the old location that got closed during Fnaf 2 and the bite from the previous game in FNAF 2 which is supposed to be an prequel to FNAF 1.

[@des4929]

@@ElFreakinCidWaS tHaT tHe BiTe Of 87!?!?!?

[@graysongdl]

I have an interesting relationship with that clip of Scott saying he didn't plan everything out from the start. Because I WAS one of those people arguing on the subreddit about whether he'd planned everything or not. I, myself, am a planner. So when people told me I was crazy for thinking Scott could've possibly known the whole story in advance, I was confused. I mean sure, I'm not dumb enough to think someone can translate a story idea into a long episodic series 1:1 without changes (they say art is only INSPIRED by the art the artist set out to try to create, after all). And sure, I knew that when he made FNaF 1, he expected it to be his last game, so no wonder he had nothing planned back then. But you could NOT convince me, or at least the FNaF 6 era version of me, that Scott *wasn't* deliberately setting things up for future games since, at the latest, FNaF 3. Of COURSE there's going to be a FNaF 4! Brighten up the newspaper and you'll see! Of COURSE there's going to be a FNaF 5! There's absolutely no reason he would make this game about the bite of 83, after teasing a bite of 87 reveal, if he wasn't saving the bite of 87 for a much grander reveal later down the line! Of COURSE there's going to be a FNaF 6! My man Scott literally teased the return of Springtrap in a cutscene! Of COURSE there's going to be a FNaF 7! Because we still haven't addressed the box and the bite of 87! But then Scott said in the interview that he planned nothing, and every single game he ever made was meant to be the last, and was expected to BE the last at the time of its release. To be honest, I don't think I even registered what happened the first time I watched that interview, but the implications of that finally started to set in... as of recent years, honestly. I've been outside the FNaF fanbase for a good long time due to lacking the hardware to play Help Wanted (I only learned THIS YEAR that Security Breach was bad), and it's only upon thinking about the game again this long later that I've realized what a clusterfuck the story of this series really was all along. To this day, I don't know who the fuck Cassidy is. I'm not sure I care, just as I stopped caring about the story to the same extent I did when FNaF 2 was being teased. Do people still think Sister Location took place before FNaF 2? I still don't know where that idea came from. Are there still people out there who honest to god think the magic discs from the book continuity I hear people talking about are real and that FNaF 4 wasn't a dream? I would never know, because the moment the name Cassidy was being talked about by everyone, and the lore was suddenly incomprehensible to even me (a diehard FNaF fan who has been there since the start), I just kinda stopped visiting the subreddit, and my interest in the lore will probably never return. Unless it's to dunk on it. Because that will never not be funny. XD

[@graysongdl]

@@justice8718 "Make a robot body for"? "Evan"? "FNaF4 Afton"? "Princess Quest"? "Possessing the same Fredbear suit"? "Charlie Emily's agony"? "Exposed for this in FNaF2"? I'm just gonna nod my head and pretend like I understand any of this complicated nonsense. Because if you read my comment and, by the end of it, still somehow thought I would know any of what you're talking about, I don't know how else to help you. XD

[@graysongdl]

​@@justice8718 What in the world are you talking about?? What "legendary theory"? I genuinely don't know what I said that has you so angry. I don't think I even mentioned anything about any of what you're talking about, and yet you wheel out the condescending lecture as if I've so horribly offended you by getting something wrong.

[@Depressed_Dandelion]

@@justice8718 the fact that this is just as, and not messier, than actual current FNAF lore... is impressive on all parties

[@kamiwriterleonardo6345]

Yeah... And it somehow still had a sense of cohesion deep into FNaF 6. After that, both the story and the Fanbase went so wild. The lore is beyond saving, at this point. Imo, Scott should rewrite and remake the first six games.

[@--CHARLIE--]

​@@graysongdl the person is talking about the theories of a different person, who, is known for making theories even more complicated than the fnaf lore with massive leaps of logic the assumption that Scott planned everything since before fnaf 1 and that literally every detail is important. Also he assumed Scott was talking about his fnaf 2 theory when he said game theory got it almost completely correct. So not the best source. Though to be fair many of the terms used are actually things that have significance to the current fnaf Canon. A lot of it has the books as required reading nowadays so thats probably why you got a bit lost. I read the novel trilogy, and I tried my best to keep up with the goosebumps esque Fazbear frights but I fell behind on that near the end, and now there's tales from the pizza plex which is the same thing, but more directly tied to Canon. And at that point I kinda lost interest. Except in the movie. That might still be good. Sorry I got a bit off topic there at the end.

[@JXEditor]

So attempting to understand the story of FNAF is like rolling a boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down? Goddammit.

[@tarantula-sb7og]

Yeah. Ever since after security breach I stopped caring about the fnaf lore. I just lost interest, knowing where it was going, and that it's all pointless at the end

[@ashtonisvibing]

one must imagine sisyphus rolling the fnaf lore up a hill

[@oneannoyingwhiteguy]

Scott Cawthon would be an absolute chad if he would just admit he doesn't care about a cohesive lore and story and just designs his games based on what he thinks is cool.

[@IronDroid925]

He actually cares about the Lore, He just retcons it 3/4 Times but It still make sense

[@dr.archaeopteryx5512]

@@IronDroid925 It really doesn't tho

[@IronDroid925]

@@dr.archaeopteryx5512 It does make sense, They're just confusing and That's what makes FNAF FNAF, Confusing, There are no Plot Holes just people Confused and That's a Normal thing in the FNAF Community

[@dr.archaeopteryx5512]

@@IronDroid925 Just because you can plug plot holes with weird fan theories and head canons doesn't mean they're not plot holes. Like, just because some fans believe Scraptraps new design happened because he grabbed himself a new suit and the Ghost juice healed him slightly but only a little bit doesn't make it not a plothole that he suddenly has a different fursuit and weird bone ears.

[@Jellybo1]

Would???? He IS a chad.

[@Haunted_Plush]

The idea that God himself wanted Scott to make fnaf is insane

[@yetanotherphotoaccount]

fnaf is a game about playing god

[@tatertime]

Yes, it is quite a funny concept at that face value lol. I think I interpreted it more as not "I, God, want you to make FNAF" but instead as "You know what, I know this is your dream and something that would make you happy. Lemme help you out a bit" (full disclosure, yes, I am a religious person but I am also totally chill with those who do not view things the same.)

[@Haunted_Plush]

@@tatertime oh that's actually a really cool interpretation

[@PrimusSwallows]

@@tatertime No, that's false. Somewhere around 2001-2003, God got together with two of his best programmers. He pointed at Terry Davis and said they needed something to compete with Windows XP, and they also needed another temple since the last two broke down, so he gave both those jobs to him. Then he pointed to Scott Cawthon and asked him to help with this idea for a game that he had, and he handed Scott a document with all of the lore written out, along with the basic mechanics and such. Then they all left the conference room and got started, although fnaf ended up having some trouble in early development and got put on the backburner for a few years. Few know this.

[@CesarTorres61296]

God wanted Freddy Fazbear to be real

[@hankboog462]

Imagine being one of the people who made fun of the fnaf 3 jumpscare having to live your life knowing how much you altered the timeline

[@BlazeNStar]

Both creators made stories that made the fans of the games keep it alive and create their own versions. But one was out of "I can make a better version of this game, or at least a far better story. Like seriously, wtf am I looking at?" and the other was more "This is so intensely inspiring, endlessly beautiful, I want to pay it tribute with a recreation of my own. I want to show how much I appreciate this creator's work."

[@mdbgamer556]

2:35 that "And Temmy Chang" reminded me of this set of twitter posts. Toby is being all serious and introspective, and shortly after, Temmy posts about getting toothpaste in her eye. Truly, the coolest set of developers. xD

[@WanderTheNomad]

3:35

[@SkylightCiel]

As a huge fan of both of these franchises I have in my life had many conversations about the mysteries of Undertale and comparing them to those of FNAF. When It comes to the big mysteries of Undertale it's very clear that with the information you're given there's no possible solution. The real purpose of the Gaster and his followers/ Chara and that other stuff, things like that can be endlessly theorize about but the fan base as a whole understands that unless we get more information it's to remain a mystery. The funny thing is that the FNAF community has always treated their mysteries as stuff that CAN be solved. There's a solution and they can figure it out of they try hard enough. It's really funny seeing the distinction between these two since it's so obviously clear that in FNAF case that Scott Cawthon doesn't even know "Solution" and Toby Fox probably actually knows what all that stuff means.

[@comyuse9103]

its the difference in maturity. undertale is a much more well developed game and attracts a more diverse fanbase because of it. fnaf is...bad, _really_ bad, and attracts people who... do not have the experience or intelligence to actually parse media, to put it very politely.

[@funnybones98]

yeah, we know that we'll have to wait before knowing more on gaster or the skelebros. at the time of writing this, there was just a lore drop from the summer newsletter about where sans and papyrus are from, and the spamton sweepstakes are still an important piece of things.

[@s_kolorowa]

@@comyuse9103lmao youre so wrong

[@comyuse9103]

@@s_kolorowa maybe i am over estimating undertale's fans, but i am certainly correct about fnaf

[@fallenwarlock2418]

And even if Gaster and his followers were only put in the game because of “Toby Fox’s rule of cool”, it’s ok, because we were never lead to believe that we have all the pieces to solve the puzzle and that they are the center of the story. Sometimes we have a mystery that is there just to be a cool spooky thing, but FNAF has become about solving the mystery a long time ago, with teasers promising answers that don’t exist, secret minigames that tell retconned bits of lore and endings that nowadays make no sense. I can still get a good story with Undertale, even with unexplained mysteries, the same can’t be said about FNAF because its backbone is a story that not even Scott is sure about

[@mr.springjunkie4415]

One thing Scott and Toby have in common is that both them and their games are far more successful than Yanderedev and his game

[@insertnamehere259]

Yup like Scott made new games every year to keep his fandom engaged while yanderedev has been pandering for longer than he should be

[@georgemeyers7172]

Well you aren't wrong there... speaking of Yanderedev and his game... what's happening with him now?

[@mr.springjunkie4415]

@@georgemeyers7172 last time I checked he was inactive on youtube for a year until he came back late December last year, he seems to very semi active now

[@G00dTaste]

Your username is peak

[@georgemeyers7172]

@@mr.springjunkie4415 hmm.

[@JMsolidsnake]

What i found interesting in Undertale was the way it can tell a story without actually telling you. Before the fight with the king you can go downstairs and see the coffins of the previous human children that fell. It shows the guilt and regret the king has for his actions. If you go back to the coffins after the fight the coffins are now open.......and EMPTY. I always took it as meaning the kings true plan was to revive the children after breaking the barrier the entire time.

[@cherenkov_blue]

Scott Cawthon is that one DM in DnD who completely changes the direction of the game when someone correctly guesses the big plot twist just to spite everyone.

[@PizzA_TimE]

Now that’s hilarious

[@dtrain8530]

Felt that

[@stephanie_jjb]

He's also the type of DM to intentionally kill off your character because they're gay

[@geoffreyprecht2410]

Cawthon probably *enjoyed* the ending of Lost just because it defied expectations lmao

[@marshyboy4637]

​@@stephanie_jjbwat

[@starrychan33]

FNAF 2 was actually perfectly fine with it's cryptic story telling. FNAF 3 is where it started losing the plot and FNAF 4 is where it really really went off the rails

[@Slimpicken]

Bro after fnaf 6 is where i draw the line. No we didn't need the games after and it was chaotic but atleast a bit manageable. Now i give up trying after fnaf 6.

[@thedigod176]

@@Slimpicken It used to be a game about ghost kids and their vengeance and then the whole book series happened 😭

[@shollyboster9115]

idk, I may just be nostalgic, but i thought that the third game's lore was pretty cool

[@potsandpineapples3319]

Fnaf 4 was fine

[@chimichurri77]

FNaF 3 is the close of the plot, it was a great ending, I would say that FNaF 4 and SL is were the plot started to go off

[@NothingRemains.]

The thing that is the most complicated about Scott and Toby is that they made their games in different contexts. Toby made Undertale as a complete passion project while Scott made FNAF because he was a struggling indie game developer, so he made it out of a last ditch effort for his career. He never expected FNAF to get as big as it was, so he never really intended to make solid lore. He tried his best when it came to making the lore as the games go on, and I honestly think he did a lot better than others would’ve. He was able to wrap up a lot of lose ends in Pizzeria Simulator and I respect Scott for that, cause trying to make things from 5 other games at that point link together can be very difficult to figure out. Scott tried his best when it came to making the lore at least make sense in a way so that the fans aren’t left with questions about things that appeared in past games without answers. Now this doesn’t mean that Scott has perfect writing, and that your opinion on Scott’s complex storytelling is wrong. Scott’s storytelling is 100% very complex and difficult to understand but I’ll give Scott the benefit of the doubt since he did not expect FNAF to ever get this big and go on for this long. The only reason he kept going after FNAF 3 (Which was originally supposed to be the end of the trilogy) is because he wanted to final game to be perfect, so that the series ends off with a bang. He continued after FNAF 3 cause people didn’t like Springtraps jump scare, so he felt like he had to make another game. Don’t get me wrong this comment isn’t about how Scott’s storytelling is better than Toby’s, Toby’s storytelling on Undertale is definitely better because of the contexts on why they made their game. Toby was able to get better storytelling because Undertale was a complete passion project so he had lots of time to think about the story, while Scott was struggling to get money for his family, so he made a last ditch effort by making a FNAF, which is a simple point and click game so he was able to finish it much faster than all the other games Scott has made up to that point. He didn’t add much lore at that point cause like I said before he was struggling to make money for his family, so he really had no time to set a straight story. It’s just that Scott didn’t expect FNAF to ever get this big in the first place and never expected for the series to go out this long.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

It became his passion.

[@davilimalol4612]

Doesn't that apply exclusively to FNAF 1? FNAF 1 was big enough to give him a good amount of income and it didn't have much lore then.

[@qwack7032]

I ain't reading allat

[@BillemDafoe69420]

​@@qwack7032I've seen someone commented something like this exactly similar so I don't of you're the same commenter as the other one just in different accounts or it's popular enough that you used it too but you tell me you can watch an almost an hour and a half video but can't read a "long" comment? You see the irony in that? And if you're not reading all that then why comment?

[@BillemDafoe69420]

@@chrispy5249 oh ok thank you for the clarification, I figured there was something sus about that reply

[@mossbaby6292]

There’s something to be said about sticking to the course. It’s another thing entirely to refuse to let your series end, over and over, every time someone gets close to guessing the lore changing the entire series retroactively to make a new installment necessary. Coming out with books that may or may not be relevant. Scott’s story of being a failed game dev, feeling like your life is over only to experience smash success is awesome. It’s impressive his tenacity, his ability to make games really fast and cover for not having a massive story from the beginning. It makes sense he didn’t have the story figured out in advance when he released the first installments. But at this point, the only logical reason I can see that the original story is still ongoing and vague is financial. He just got a movie deal and the most recent game sold for $60 each. I’m not saying he’s a bad person because he wants to continue making money. And I have found myself invested in the recent games. But it’s genuine work to stay interested, there’s never any closure for anything and it’s annoyingly on purpose that nothing is ever resolved.

[@absolutezerochill2700]

The series is out of his hands now. It ended at UCN, and both that game and Fnaf 6 were free.

[@mossbaby6292]

@@absolutezerochill2700 I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Do you mean to say he’s relinquished control over the series…?

[@absolutezerochill2700]

@@mossbaby6292 yes. That exactly. He's retired for good

[@mossbaby6292]

@@absolutezerochill2700 that’s entirely untrue and I’m not sure where you’re getting that. Scott owns the IP and is the main person profiting. He currently oversees the book releases, is the one who was supposed to direct steel wool’s sister location (in his recent interview with Dawko he revealed that he mismanaged the project) and took on multiple behind the scenes roles creating the movie (also talked about in the interview with Dawko). You can believe if you like that the series ended with Ultimate Custom Night, but factually games have been continued to be released along with merchandise, a movie and an entire book series.

[@absolutezerochill2700]

@@mossbaby6292 well of course he made parts of the movie, it's his property and his project since like 2018. Obviously games and books have released since, but unlike pre UCN Scott isn't making these books or games. Of course he still owns the property, but he IS retired and he's not the one who made Security Breach or sold it for 60 dollars.

[@Tyler-os3lg]

The thing about chica’s quote is I believe it’s talking about how she was the first of the 5 children killed, not the FIRST first child

[@yellowstarproductions6743]

That makes sense.

[@yetanotherphotoaccount]

yeah the first child william killed was in the abortion of 76' someone reply to me when i hit 76 likes unless i dont in which L for me ig

[@w1ccaphobia]

​@@yetanotherphotoaccountHELP-

[@alexthewrecker4666]

​@@yetanotherphotoaccountLMAO 💀

[@MyUsersDark]

Well too bad, because the story is so vague that it's impossible to tell

[@mellowmallow4855]

I feel like the reason why Scott won't make a coherent storyline is because being as vague as possible has been working so well so far. His fans fill in the plotholes, he goes along with it if he likes it, and he does not have to worry about never having a steady income.

[@etepapu8276]

The stories of these dudes are freaking inspiring, like Scott made a metroid fangame years ago, Toby made a earthbound fangame years ago AND NOW THEY HAVE THEIR FREAKING GAMES ON THE SWITCH

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

Yeah. I completely agree. Scott cawthon is a better developer than Toby Fox. And a better story teller too. (I'm saying this to de-saturate the cawthon hate)

[@gracewildsmith1183]

@@Very_Silly_Individualare you saying it because you believe it at all as well?

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

@@gracewildsmith1183 Well, I do somewhat believe it. I don't have the ability to discern who's a "better storyteller," but I do believe that both are very talented men, Scott probably more so. I also think Toby wouldn't deny this. I mean, if he really did believe he was better than Scott. He'd do something to prove it. But he hasn't. Undertale is significantly less popular and infulential than Fnaf. Fnaf basically invented meta horror. Something Toby sort of uses in his game.

[@PneumaAsh]

To take it a step further with how inspiring Toby is, the guy went from "I've been a fan of Touhou since elementary school" and talking about how his music production has been heavily inspired by ZUN to working directly with ZUN to make a combination remix of one of ZUN's songs and one of Toby's songs ("U.N Owen Was Hero?", a combo remix of "U.N. Owen Was Her" and "Battle Against a True Hero") For people who don't know, this song will be released on February 7th of next year as free DLC for the video game "Touhou Danmaku Kagura: Phantasia Lost" (which is on Steam) Like imagine working with the person who most greatly influenced your style in a medium of art

[@Gerbert67]

@@Very_Silly_Individual you think creating mascot horror is a GOOD THING?!?!

[@felisazure1820]

54:11 You've basically and perfectly summarized why I fell out of love with FNAF. I am a huge mystery lover, but FNAF never felt like a mystery to me, more of an experiment with how many different and random feeling directions a story could be taken until it fell apart. I couldn't get behind the idea that the story was consistent because the story and design felt like it was being changed behind the scenes. Scott's always annoyed me as a creator because it felt like, instead of being honest about not having a bigger story, he used the "mystery" as an excuse to hide issues with the lore and story, constantly changing things unfairly. It just always felt mean spirited to me.

[@complex2live]

Even though FNAF 4 added a lot of unforeshadowed lore and stretched out to FNAF 6, I can forgive that. But once you make this whole thing where you have to have books to solve the GAME Mystery and making the newer games that take away the original spirit of FNAF is what makes me mad. You can make Books from an entertainment piece and it work. Examples are the spinoff books on Death Note or BATIM or Hello Neighbor. But why those worked is it either established the lore already existed and improved on it, but it never made things so questionable where it is confusing. In Scott's books, he established so many new stories that either don't matter or explain barely anything so WHAT IS THE FREAKING POINT?

[@notjaller]

FNAF as an act of divine intervention is the most hilarious thing I've ever heard

[@notjaller]

1:15:48 also that trans jumpscare lmfao

[@VEE0034]

how?

[@marshyboy4637]

​@@VEE0034It's a horrifying grotesque story that feels like it goes against the things that God stands for and the religion promotes

[@funninoriginal6054]

​@@marshyboy4637 Also the image of fucking Freddy Fazbear as an emissary of god is just hysterical

[@marshyboy4637]

@@funninoriginal6054 haha yh

[@NemoracStrebor]

Just to be clear, the butterscotch pie is absolutely NOT a requirement for True Pacifist. Also, Asriel's SOUL is not trapped within Flowey. It is simply his consciousness mixed with determination. Because he has no SOUL, he can't feel anything. It's a major plot point

[@Waffleman00]

no one cares

[@m.1848]

Dw man I care ^^

[@marcygonzalesgas2humility840]

I care about this too❤

[@Waffleman00]

@@marcygonzalesgas2humility840 nuh uh

[@dcrime4403]

I care too mate a bit late but I’ll give ya all the nods and „ah yes“ I have. Cheers

[@zeldagameryt4018]

As a man who holds Undertale and Deltarune close to his heart as my favorite games ever, I can say personally that they and Toby Fox deserve so much love and praise for being very unique in the whole gaming community

[@concept5631]

Along with not being a terrible person

[@helion_ut]

​@@concept5631You, uh, don't deserve praise for not being a terrible person? That's like, not really an achievement-

[@concept5631]

@@helion_ut I don't know what that's referencing but I was drawing a comparison to Scott.

[@helion_ut]

@@concept5631 Scott wasn't an actually terrible person? No, being right-winged (Not extreme) doesn't make you a terrible person. Except if there is something else idk about, but him being deemed a terrible person by some for his political opinion is straight-up sad.

[@concept5631]

@@helion_ut He donated over $42,000 to people who actively make the lives of minorities worse.

[@Charlie_the_dog]

That ending to part 6 was the rawest thing I've heard since the FNAF 6 speech

[@mepty_]

41:19 Small correction! Undertale was made in game maker instead of rpg maker which was probably a decision Toby made because of the scale of the project. Loved your video! Hope you can keep this up to 1 gazillion subs!

[@lawrencefosterjenkins8216]

I was hoping someone would correct him on that. I’m familiar with rpgmaker as an engine and I know UT certainly wasn’t made with it

[@margaret_adelle]

I fully believe MatPat's known for awhile that the mystery was functionally impossible to solve. My guess is by the time he realized it, he was already deep in the community and getting way too much money off the videos to give up.

[@WanderTheNomad]

ohh, so that explains how his channel became mainly a fnaf theory channel. surprisingly simple explanation.

[@margaret_adelle]

@@WanderTheNomad I tried to watch one of the latest videos. The second he said "you know FNaF doesn't do coincidences" I laughed so hard I had to click off. 😂

[@theflickchick9850]

He explained in a GTLive that when he didn't upload a FNAF video, he would receive shocking hate tweets. I wasn't surprised.

[@Slimpicken]

​@@theflickchick9850what the fuck ???

[@randompromises1038]

At this point, I can't really say I enjoy the influence FNAF and MatPat have had on indie horror. It's not their fault, but I don't enjoy that their influence has made the subgenre saturated with a lack of inspiration and too focused on lore more than an actual experience.

[@Creatalsoft]

One of the first big pushes that got me into game development when in my youth was being inspired by FNAF and Scott Cawthon's success. I was super into the games and following and I made some really crude fangames for it as well and it was a huge stepping stone for me in now making a lot better projects, and the story of a guy who failed so many times finally succeeding was really empowering at the time and from seeing aspiring developers, it's clear that I wasn't the only one influenced by Scott. But over the last few years, especially in both participating in and looking back at the constant controversy in the FNAF community and related to Scott and then revisiting the previous games to see if they were really that good in the first place, I think it's really interesting and clear how extremely flawed a lot of the games are and a lot of the points were touched on in this video. Not to say every game has to be perfect, but it's something so often ignored (at least for the earlier titles considering... everything in Security Breach) in the fandom and a bit shocking that there really isn't much discussion on some of the huge problems with the games or people trying to learn from those faults. At this point, there's more discourse over other games that are flawed out of trying to chase the success of FNAF than FNAF that it's kind of ironic when FNAF fell into a lot of the same (if not more) problems that were ignored or forgotten since it's Freddy Fazbear. This was a really nice retrospective look at the franchise and all of its pitfalls it went through versus one that took a different approach and had its own separate form of success. It's a franchise that, without a doubt, will keep being beloved by its fans, but it's so infrequent to see a more critical look and I think this summed up well a lot of the core issues. Really great video and I'm really glad I subscribed after the Welcome To The Game video, and looking forwards to more from here! Also, that was a cool flag! 🏳‍⚧

[@obliviongigan6360]

It might not be perfect but I still think the story of fnaf was pretty interesting and not overly complicated in the first 4 games.

[@idontknowwhatmynameis8525]

Wait where is the flag thingie?

[@semisemicoloncolon]

Very well said, but I personally think the first one is genuienly an incredible, super well designed game

[@Kyotakatana]

*"Either God didn't exist or God hated me. I didn't know which was worse."* Straight bars from Scott there.

[@tomp6470]

Well it was neither so..

[@TyperMarlinGames]

You took this quote out of context. He knows neither of these things are true. What he’s saying is that at the time, it felt that way to him.

[@FumanyuX]

​@@TyperMarlinGames😂god doesn't exist lmao

[@Megamix_Nerai]

@@FumanyuX ok cool religion bad

[@Luckrye]

​@@FumanyuXWhy are you so edgy

[@jocosejpeg]

Scott and Toby are honestly fantastic examples of how creatives change as a result of their environment. Toby was a seemingly shy 90's kid whose identity was grounded in the RPGs he'd play, with him recounting being exposed to Earthbound when he was very little. This passion for music and storytelling paved the way for an interest in how he could spin tired tropes on their heads in his content, something he was interested in doing as far back as the Halloween Hack featuring a genuinely fresh take on a gay character suppressing his feelings in Andonuts -- a plot point depicted via gameplay (✨ foreshadowing for UT ooo✨ ). Growing up in fandom spaces (Homestuck, Earthbound), exposed him to not only the internet's most eccentric individuals, but fandom culture in general, something he'd often parody in his game. When UNDERTALE blew the hell up, he was bombarded with waves of attention, scrutiny and praise he described as incredibly overwhelming. He stopped showing his face or voice for years, and only recently has been taking strides on getting himself "out there" again, which is nice to see. Still, not once did he ever feel the need to bend over backwards for his critics, understanding that he had a dedicated fandom waiting for him and a dream game to be made. That 90's kid is still in there, but he has a whole team of talented creatives by his side and has done things nigh-impossible. Going from humble ROM-hacking to getting Sans in Smash Ultimate and MatPat giving his game to the POPE, Toby's got it made, and he's expressed many times that he's forever grateful for his position despite the growing pains of becoming a big name in the industry of game. Scott... came from a much less favourable starting point. Similarly to Toby, Scott was a fan of "older" games as a kid (Metroid, Mega Man, Star Fox, etc), albeit from before Toby's generation. Though he had the support of his wife and kids as an adult, he'd been devoting his life to projects that were going nowhere -- something he was acutely and woefully aware of. His desire to make something enjoyed by many (sadly compounded with his declining mental health) made him VERY susceptible to criticism and feeling the need to constantly "correct" himself; a vulnerability-turned-strength in light of Jim Sterling's scathing review of "Chipper and Son's" leading to the creation of the game that would change indie horror forever. Scott adored his fandom for their love and talent, something obvious to anyone who was around for his Steam and Reddit posts at the time; he wanted an audience, and God gave him an audience. Unfortunately, his need to please had long since became a part of his process, leading to years of retcons and storytelling decisions that ultimately baffled his audience. The ONE TIME (apart from FNAF World) he faced criticism with full confidence in his own stance... was in response to his really 😬 political donations. And while his actions were obviously out of ignorance and differing priorities rather than bigoted hate, the damage was undeniably done, and it was a massive blow for a lot of the queer FNAF fandom to experience. He seems to be in a more stable place these days, spending more time with his family and managing his franchise behind the scenes rather than directly, only occasionally popping in from behind his Pirate Cove curtain to say hi. They're very different people, and their fandoms can be scarily similar sometimes even if the fans hate admitting it (source: first-hand experience in both communities for years lmao), but both of them were shaped by their past and had their creations bear the due boons and consequences. UNDERTALE was a passion project made from love first and foremost, and despite the backlash it suffered, is still one of the best experiences gaming has to offer, hands-down. FNAF was made as a desperate creator's swansong for a hobby he loved, a song that was heard by many and morphed into a beautiful, if equally discordant cacophony. I've seen the best and the worst their fanbases have to offer, and the talent outweighs the degeneracy. Every. Single. Time. Fangames, animations, mind-blowingly gorgious artwork, banger music (including actual f*cking orchestrations, holy), new stories from freshly-inspired creatives, the works. The fact that they were able to create so much from so little is what I find magical about indie devs, in gaming or otherwise. Tl;Dr - Toby Cawthon pro skater real 😳😳😳 god this took forever to write i gotta eat something Edit: I'm happy and very thankful to see the response to this comment! I decided to adjust the wording in a few places where I thought I delivered my point weirdly haha

[@hershloodu8925]

Thanks for writing this, it was a wonderful read.

[@jocosejpeg]

@@hershloodu8925 And thank you for taking the time to read it all! I greatly appreciate it :)

[@DogmaCelestial246]

Best comment.

[@NerveUnderscore]

This is fricking beautiful, holy muffins. You really got the inspiration there, mate

[@Barichter74318]

This is the best comment I've read here

[@Lh0000]

To be fair to Scott, about 2/3rds of the games were supposed to be the last game.

[@Incognitus30]

then he should have made them the last games, its his own fault if he says its the last game and then makes a new one

[@Lh0000]

@@Incognitus30 try applying this to literally every long running game series and see how well it holds up. It doesn’t, at all.

[@trouslinabone]

Closer to half. 55.555~% of the games were supposed to be the last: FNaF 1, FNaF 3, FNaF 4, FNaF: Pizzaria Simulator, and FNaF: Custom Night are all games that were supposed to be the last. FNaF 2, FNaF: Sister Location, FNaF: Help Wanted, FNaF: Security Breach are all games that weren't supposed to be the last game. It's arguable if FNaF: Sister Location was also supposed to be the final game at some point, but I don't think so. Anyways, 5 outta 9 games is 55.5555%(repeating) Although, if you count SL, then it's closer to the 2/3rds you said (at 66.666~) And, if you count every game (AR and World), then it's 45.4545~%, or 54.5454~% if you think SL was meant to be the last game.

[@Incognitus30]

@@Lh0000 So everyone doing it makes it okay? yeah ill just say this is the definitive last game and then make 4 more "last games" but its okay because everyone does it.

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

Sorta like Legend of Korra. They have some weird plot developments because they always thought the season they were on was the last one, and it never actually was.

[@canofraidantandroachspray8415]

It's weird and interesting to me that both of the *"huge indie games from the mid 2010s that probably have their own religions based on them"* have other-worldly explanations for their actual creations: A): Was made to test the creator so they could make something that CAME TO THEM IN A DREAM B): Was (supposedly) AN ACT OF GOD

[@8is]

God works in mysterious ways xD.

[@martinsaad5125]

@@8is Dreams work in mysterious ways

[@swordimproved]

@@martinsaad5125dreams work mysteriously indeed… BY CHEATING

[@UltimateDragon-ne5ui]

@@martinsaad5125 Dreamworks in mysterious ways

[@zame-osomething5096]

@@UltimateDragon-ne5ui You’re good. You’re good.

[@AmySeymour-dm1fr]

Reading into fnaf lore is like going into a resturant and looking at theplates only. Sure they look nice, but they arent the reason youre there. You're there for the meals, the gameplay, not what the meal rests on in order for it to not become gross. Toby has an art gallery, scott has a resturant.

[@itzpeanut9904]

i find it funny that matpat is involved in both games histories, yet their endings swerve in very opposite directions

[@8is]

I mean, it's almost like it's his job to make theories about games and that those theories are very influential and thus impactful.

[@WanderTheNomad]

I like how matpat made theories for both Undertale and Hollow Knight, two of the most impactful games of the decade, and ended up being clowned on by their respective communities. Perhaps that's the sign of a great game. Having matpat make a terrible theory on them because their communities have already figured out the most plausible explanations for things. o7 to "sans is ness" and "the knight is the pale king" You were the sacrificial goat to the indie game dev gods.

[@kingofhearts3185]

​@@WanderTheNomad Man San is Ness takes me back, I haven't thought about that video for YEARS

[@randompromises1038]

​@@WanderTheNomadreminds me of Amanda the Adventurer, a lot of comments were trying hard to "solve" the mystery or give their own theories but they all kind of repeated each other and it made me realize something - the story behind Amanda the Adventurer isn't really complex and you could figure it out after a couple of playthroughs, which isn't a bad thing at all. They made Amanda more layered and interesting of a character than just a demon who wants to eat you or steal your soul or wtv, but the secrets were generally easy to find and the game wasn't bogged down by them. The story is very easy to understand which isn't a bad thing at all, but too many people were trying to discover "more". There wasn't more to discover. What you saw was what you got. It weirded me out people thought there was more when there didn't need to be at all; the story functioned just perfectly the way it was told.

[@nisor123]

@@WanderTheNomad surprisingly the sans is ness theory got very close to the sans comes from deltarune theory (sans comes from a different world with a machine), years before deltarune was out

[@Evanz111]

I appreciate you calling out how overdone and indulgent the “early life” sections of these videos can be. It’s like bombarding you with Wikipedia facts as a way to come off as giving insight. Amazing video in general, loved your presentation!

[@Chackravartin]

Half expected this video to go back to when horror was first invented and when video games first came about like so many other video essays do, but was pleasantly suprised when that diddnt happen.

[@THATGuy5654]

I couldn't stop laughing at the parent asking how to prevent her kid from falling in love with a skeleton. Sorry, baby, ever since anthropomorphic cartoon characters became common, people have been forming crushes on non-human beings, and the generations born to a fully-formed internet... well, we're just going to have to see how that develops.

[@guidedexplosiveprojectileg9943]

Furries 101

[@Vinesus]

The show that clip is from recently had one of their hosts die, and frankly, his death is a net positive for the entire planet

[@Takejiro24]

I'm not a furry but.....Rauru from Tears of the Kingdom.......

[@_-Lx-_]

Still, people should have better taste and simp for characters like Mettaton instead of the Skeleton Bros. Not sure why people want to bone sans tiba honest, great character but as far away from hot as it gets IMO, MTT meanwhile is actively flamboyant and gorgeous and flirty but has scarce art oddly.

[@Vinesus]

@@_-Lx-_ you should probably look into “tumblr sexyman” and the various characters associated. Sans fits right in

[@leimmortalraven3246]

As an aspiring story teller. I have been following fnaf lore so very closely. It's a great frame of reference for how much making more story beyond what you had in mind can destroy the plot of your story

[@Ikcatcher]

You know as much as FNAF became a dumb wacky franchise with inconsistencies. I appreciate Scott staying humble and honest about his fame all the way through.

[@kamiwriterleonardo6345]

Scott was always a humble man. He knows he isn't perfect, but want to give the best things to his fans. That's why he continued after every supposed last game, because he didn't want to see the series end on a low note for his fans.

[@alexanderthegreat-mx5zu]

​@@kamiwriterleonardo6345you tell me that 6 was a low note to leave the story on?

[@kamiwriterleonardo6345]

@@alexanderthegreat-mx5zu Well, no but actually yes. The questions were answered, the game was fun, the ending was RAW. But you know Scott. He has made entire games to correct the mistake of a single jumpscare. So, my theory is that Fnaf continued because of... Scraptrap. And the jumpscares again. I mean, everyone was joking that he looked like Jimmy Neutron. Let's be honest, regardless of the game's overall quality, if there's a little detail Scott sees disappointed the audience, he'll continue the franchise to correct it. Think about it. FNaF 3 was a perfect ending point, yet because of a single jumpscare, he proceeded, turning up the fear factor while messing the lore. With the lore now messed, he tried clarifying it with Sister Location... Which brought more tangled questions. Which brings us to Pizza Sim, where the lore was almost all cohesive (except for the Midnight Motorist), but the designs and jumpscares suffered from it. (I'm not gonna count UCN here) The next installment, Help Wanted... Didn't suffer from design. But since Scott ended the story, he tried beginning a new arc, one more scifi, with a new villain and stuff. Success, Help Wanted is probably the second best game in the franchise. But then, he put into question the canonicity of the previous games. Which he decided to answer with a book, which very few people read. Security Breach was Scott's first try making a triple A style game. Well, he failed. The task was too daunting, but one thing he got right, and that's the thing Scott always gets right: Character Design and Atmosphere. Scott is not a writer, he's a designer at heart. IMO, Scott either needs to, moving forward: hire a team of competent professional writers, or start learning writing skills himself.

[@pizzaisneat]

​@alexanderthegreat-mx5zu hot take time I actually do think it's mid The game is my favorite, but I don't think it should be the end

[@lunaJAMv9]

@@kamiwriterleonardo6345 wasn't SB development mostly Steel Wool?

[@crisptain6356]

41:14 As absolutely insane as it would be to see something like Photoshop Flowey in RPG Maker, Undertale was actually made in GameMaker Studio. Also unrelated but Photoshop Flowey happens even if you choose to kill Asgore. Edit: you literally don't fight Asgore in True Pacifist, eating Toriel's Pie sadly doesn't help you spare him (though it does otherwise make the fight easier)

[@oogwayoverthere6159]

The plot of FNAF is more accurately described as not just one story. It is multiple different stories, ideas, concepts, and plot details (with differing levels of canon-ness subject to change every time a new installment is released), that are stacked on top each other, wearing a trenchcoat pretending to be one single continuity. Good Lord.

[@yellowstarproductions6743]

Agreed

[@MB32904]

the plot of fnaf is literally "avoid the animatronics" I think u're thinking of the lore

[@robertlupa8273]

That sounds really funny.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

Which, again, makes it far more compelling to work through, as much of it is up to interpretation.

[@des4929]

@@Very_Silly_IndividualI see you literally everywhere defending Scott like seriously man just stop it's not worth your time to argue failing points for hours on end

[@no-namearts3823]

The way I write is a combo of both styles. Shitpost as much as you can and just have fun, then go back and polish out your story. You get to be silly and have fun but also have a more cohesive story line. It's what me and my friends have been doing for like 8 years

[@rhyno39]

The seamless transition from calm documentary to documentary with an underlying madness in PRICELESS

[@Xueria]

I actually love Matt Patt's attempts to figure out the lore of 5 Night's at Freddy's. Sure, he's gonna be wrong, and even when he's right he's still wrong thanks to the constantly changing lore, but seeing him try to put together the pieces left over after a train wreck is fascinating and just kinda fun. It felt a lot like he was doing the story writing for Cawthon, because Matt certainly put a lot more effort into the story than Scott ever did. The whole "Matt got the story mostly right" comment of his always struck me as less of an honest statement, and more of a "oh, that's so much better than I was actually thinking, let's go with that". Scott gets to pick and choose bits of the theories, mix it with random bullshit he comes up with, and ta da! That's the story!

[@8is]

I don't think Scott actually changed the story based on any fan reception. He made multiple new installments in the series where he intended it to be the final one. That's why the story as we understood it at the release of Fnaf2, Fnaf3, Fnaf4 and Pizza simulator/UCN were all coherent but different since the story changed based on new context from the new game. We had the ability to understand one game, but when Scott decided to make a new one, he made the decision to tell a new story with the old content to tie all the games together. There are pros and cons to this very unique way of telling a story. A pro is that it ties the entire franchise together while still telling something new, but a con is that it retcons the old story, which people might've gotten attached to. Regardless, it still fanf, which is why people stuck with it regardless, which is why people still argue about which story they liked the most and discuss whatever the hell the newest game is trying to say about the entire franchise as a whole.

[@grathem9789]

@@8is basically he is just using people's nostalgia for the old lore

[@joshkaid]

MatPat gets a lot of shit for his FNAF theories, but honestly, given Scott's incredibly poor ability to convey information, I'm surprised MatPat managed to piece ANYTHING together.

[@grathem9789]

@@joshkaid Matpat wrote the lore of fnaf

[@standardhuman8675]

matpat may be cringe or whatever, but its a blast to watch him try to work this story out. its like watching someone try to build a working spaceship out of spare legos

[@Notkryo]

FNaF's story was SO consistent up until 4. 4 fucked up the entire story with it's super cryptic nature, and it was not cryptic in a good way.

[@idioticlight]

Me and the boys going back in time to prevent fnaf 4

[@Notkryo]

@@idioticlight Me and the boys going back in time to kill Springtrap in FNaF 3 and end the franchise:

[@Elix111]

​@@idioticlightits a canon event bro

[@ElFreakinCid]

I think Scott's biggest mistake was giving MatPat validation and trying to one-up him at every turn.

[@idioticlight]

@@Notkryo naw i think fnaf 6 was a great ending but the stuff inbetween was goofy

[@MrMisfortune]

This is one of the most cathartic videos I've ever watched. I've held these near exact views for YEARS but never found the right words to Express it and this shit is perfection.

[@coopernut]

Two series that would ABSOLUTELY change the life of band kids forever

[@MeIThink1234]

As a professional band kid, yea pretty much

[@jevilstail]

leave me be

[@grantthomasproductions1274]

Lol true

[@thecrazygooseofyourdreams4785]

Lol yea

[@IEatedADoor]

Our entire brass section has Megolovania memorized Send help - Flautist

[@airconditionedstudios1011]

That Toby fox backstory part sounds like something straight out of deltarune, & this video helped me with my story structure, I went from an idea, where I’ll start writing and just went from there, forgetting story beats to writing an outline then fleshing it out, I’m actually in the process of outlining my first few games, to make them when I get a computer

[@АлександраГришина-с5р]

That's great buddy, keep it up! Good luck with your games!

[@johay899]

I was inspired as well

[@ithinkflutterawesome6511]

Scott Cawthon's problem is that he's inherently not that great of a writer, and the only reason it took people so long to figure it out was because at every opportunity he avoided telling a coherent story. Now that the books are out, you really can see how much retconning, mischaracterization, and backtracking goes into his work. Because it's not about the story. It's about leaving breadcrumbs.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

Really. At "every point"? Yeah, the fnaf 6 ending completely ruins that awful argument. The entire story wraps up into a relatively nice yet still mysterious story.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

The books are also not canon. They're only meant to give you clues to the world and how it works. They aren't a "lore bible"

[@peterjohnson11655]

@@Very_Silly_Individual why are you acting like scott cawthon is like your personal friend or something youre in the replies of like every comment that says something even remotely negative about him or fnaf why do you care so much like if you enjoy the fnaf story, then thats perfectly fine, but your comments make it seem like youre genuinely really offended about how these internet strangers don't enjoy the funny robot bear jumpscare game as much as you do its really weird

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

@@peterjohnson11655 Hey man, we all gotta have something to be passionate about. I chose to be passionate about something that brought me joy as a child. You chose to be passionate about criticizing me for still respecting that thing. We are no different. And besides. People who agree with me will find my comments and be like, "Yes, this man gets it!" And leave a like to show that not everyone agrees with the rest of you. I mean, why are you scrolling through the comments anyway? Without leaving anything to say? You're telling me you have absolutely nothing to input? You only respond to people like me who leave a bunch of comments? Yeah, okay, pal. Maybe stop with the superiority thing, and realize this is the internet.

[@peterjohnson11655]

@@Very_Silly_Individual im not really passionate about this, i only left that one comment that i probably forgot about like 10 minutes later, youve left dozens of comments across this one youtube video. i just commented because i noticed something kind of weird, and then i moved on. also why are you so confused on why im scrolling through the comments? im looking at the comments because im curious about what other people have to say about the video and its topic. theres no rule or anything that says that i have to respond to every single comment lol. also you cant criticize me for acting superior while speaking in the most condescending way i have ever seen someone speak on youtube lmao.

[@neonradius]

I honestly think I wouldn’t mind fnaf’s storytelling as much if it was just honest. I love theorycrafting, I love ten hour videos on lore that doesn’t make sense, and I love how fans have taken the aspects of the franchise that works for them and used it to create amazing content (that’s honestly better told then fnaf at points). If Scott or steel wool just came out and said “It’s a long franchise, we can’t promise everything is consistent, but we focus on telling an entertaining story and making a game that fun to play and look for clues in, even if that means it’s often inconsistent”, I would have way less problems with the plot holes. Because yes, FNAF theorizing is fun! Honestly, more fun than the games (for me at least)! The problem isn’t the theorizing, it’s that everyone (including Scott) acts like he was a perfect genius who never made any mistakes or plot holes

[@thedarkroom6416]

I think the story itself is good but not clear

[@yugix_1]

" making a game thats fun to play" steelwool: lmao no

[@CatOnVenus183]

scott does not act like a perfect genius watch literally any interview and he talks about how it was not all planned out from the start and lore has changed at times and there are inconsisties

[@LordDaret]

When did he ever claim that? You were probably just listening to the Matpat propaganda and just bought into it. It was clear from the start that he was just winging it like a derailed DND campaign.

[@complex2live]

What made FNAF so good at first is it balanced mystery with a clear story. Within the first few games (about 3 or all the way to UCN), Scott knew what mysteries to reveal, and which ones to use as theorycraft. For example, in the first game we hear about the Bite of 87 and get almost no info on it. But in FNAF 2 we are technically shown it and 2 tells us of the Diner, which gets elaborated on in 4. But then stuff like the shadows and William's motives are left unclear. The reason SB failed though was because it didn't try to balance that out. It just made some mysteries and just left them

[@pepperthe2008]

32:30 i like how he says "especially bonnie" with the most uncomfortable looking bon bon picture you could choose

[@PhuongTran-yj7wz]

In deep voice too😂

[@prismavoid3764]

Honestly, at this point, I can't help but wonder if the fanbase building up Scott as this unbelievable master storyteller has gotten to his head. On top of the sheer arrogance of his "There are no plot holes" line (nobody sets out to create plot holes, but there are always angles you yourself don't consider or find important that other people will. Saying "My story can't possibly have any plot holes" is basically him saying "I never make mistakes, ever"), there's also his excuse for why he never revealed what was in the box, which was that the community "failed to figure out the story" of 4 and so he decided that we would never ever ever get to see what was in the box. Because we didn't immediately understand that a number on a TV meant that this was actually a completely different bite and had nothing to do with 87 and that the teasers with the number 87 meant absolutely nothing, we don't get the last mystery the game sets up revealed to us, ever. Even though he admits in the Dawko interview that what's in the box has changed, meaning he never had a clear vision for what it actually was, it's actually _our_ fault for not understanding his story. I have similar feelings about the "one retcon" that he repeatedly teased the community with. In a franchise where every detail is important, the number on the TV, the tiny toy Chica who's missing her beak, etc, he tells everyone "oh there's actually ONE thing in the games which is complete nonsense and no longer fits the story" and then refuses to say what it actually is. This frustrating vagueness while insisting that there's a coherent lore underneath is the reason why current FNAF theories are about faz-goo and robot children and soul metal and mpreg. Because Scott refuses to just tell us anything and keeps giving us vague symbols that COULD mean any number of things, while insisting that he's a master storyteller and that everything makes perfect sense, somehow. It'd just be so much less frustrating if Scott would admit he doesn't have a coherent vision for the FNAF franchise and that he's adding new things to each installment, that there was no point after the first or second game where he sat down and plotted out an entire massive lore and story. To tie it all back to the metaphor from the start, Scott is a pantser who pretends he's a planner.

[@novustalks7525]

The one retcon is the box. The box was supposed to reveal it was all a dream but everyone hated the idea

[@dannyboidee]

I genuinely still believe that bite in fnaf 4 was supposed to be the bite of 87 but fans were so predominantly up the butt about it being 83 because of the year on the TV show (even tho that could literally just of been an explanation as to WHEN the company started or whatever) that Scott got nervous and went with it. Why TF would he use 87 constantly as a teaser for the game, alongside also literally never mentioning a second bite? That is so absolutely unbelievably frustrating that something that was supposed to be so obvious and blunt got derailed because fnaf theorists think Scott is a god and that every pixel is some hidden lore. Absolute bs

[@novustalks7525]

@@dannyboidee Absolutely

[@prismavoid3764]

@@dannyboidee I do think 4 was going to be about the Bite of 87, but the change to 83 happened a little bit before the TV - around the time of the Plushtrap teaser, all the 87s in the source code briefly turned to 82s, then 83s with no explanation My best guess for why is that maybe Scott thought it was unrealistic for there to still be a Fredbear's open in 87? But even if that were the case, you'd have to change it to the 70s or maybe even earlier for it to match up with Phone Guy in FNAF2 saying it's been "closed for years", to the point where a Freddy's fanboy like him seems only vaguely aware of it Even then, it's stupid as hell. People who still believed it was 87 had explanations for how Fredbear's and Freddy's could be open at the same time (there are some McDonalds' open today that still look like they did in the 80s because of outdated franchising contracts). And there was never a point where Scott said "hey I changed my mind, pretend those 87s never existed". Just another case where Scott creates immense confusion by just never coming out and telling us anything

[@8is]

I don't think Scott actually changed the story based on any fan reception. He made multiple new installments in the series where he intended it to be the final one. That's why the story as we understood it at the release of Fnaf2, Fnaf3, Fnaf4 and Pizza simulator/UCN were all coherent but different since the story changed based on new context from the new game. We had the ability to understand one game, but when Scott decided to make a new one, he made the decision to tell a new story with the old content to tie all the games together. There are pros and cons to this very unique way of telling a story. A pro is that it ties the entire franchise together while still telling something new, but a con is that it retcons the old story, which people might've gotten attached to. Regardless, it still fanf, which is why people stuck with it regardless, which is why people still argue about which story they liked the most and discuss whatever the hell the newest game is trying to say about the entire franchise as a whole.

[@Raiethstar]

I was one of the few people who thought springtraps jump scare was the most creepy. It’s just so smooth and human. It sent a shiver down my spine even through a let’s play.

[@flanimgo1504]

it's not meant to be creepy, it's meant to be scary B)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[@ForgieDusker]

no joke, i had this video on a second screen for background noise and during a lull in the commentary at around 10:34, i got an ad for the FNaF movie and i thought it was a bit to exacerbate Scott's success lmfaooo

[@realrobertflores]

I feel like Fnafs complicated story is what made the games so popular

[@NaddleSchidaddle]

That and all the people who like the animatronics. Let's be real here, especially in the early days people were obsessing over them :') I mean hey, there are definitely neat designs there.

[@des4929]

@@NaddleSchidaddleespecially fnaf 2 toy chica : )/j

[@NatalieExists]

i have to say, after hearing people act like fnaf has a coherent storyline for so long it is REALLY god damn cathartic to hear you rip into it and say basically the same thing ive been saying ever since the "bite of 83" shit happened guess i finally get to make a new entry onto my patented "brown haired white guys named scott who talk about video games that i subscribed to" list

[@PrivateOcto]

The other one is Scott The Woz?

[@kinzie7500]

It's genuinely infuriating when Scott says he changes the story when theorists get it right, as if that's somehow a good thing. If Scott doesn't care about the story, why should anyone else?

[@LeaveMeAlone3omgIgotloggedouta]

Frrrrrrr😭✋it’s so frustrating!

[@Harlegeist]

He never said this.

[@LeaveMeAlone3omgIgotloggedouta]

@@Harlegeist he kinda implied it

[@Harlegeist]

@@LeaveMeAlone3omgIgotloggedouta Where?

[@LeaveMeAlone3omgIgotloggedouta]

@@Harlegeist he said Mat inconvenienced him with his theories

[@keags1545]

I think that scott shot himself in the foot when he decided that theorists guessing his work was a bad thing, I havent seen a community so hellbent on theorizing in terms of video games before and after fnaf came out.

[@faeb.9618]

it honestly just feels like he wants to feel superior by being the one in control and who gets to decide what is and isn't canon, so he can just change things on the fly when people are getting them right to be like nuh huh guess again! either that or he's really just that desperate to keep people talking about his game to the point that instead of making something actually good he went for the low hanging fruit of keeping everyone else working for him in keeping the game relevant. honestly idk which one is more pathetic

[@shyblookster137]

I'd like to think that the box contains a voice recorder with the message on it being "There's no plotholes, only holes in your understanding"

[@he-man9413]

Scott Cawthon: Religious, Questioned faith after spending multiple years of his life making cruddy games, depression, gets lucky with his project that would likely be his last game of all time Toby Fox: Earthbound/Homestuck fan, great composer, connections to giant community, great life, gets idea for a game through a dream on a rainy night, which inspires him to make multiple hit succsesses What kind of plot setup is this

[@birdboy16]

Two unlikely friends working together to save the world

[@he-man9413]

no@@birdboy16

[@birdboy16]

@@he-man9413 oh

[@zeltzamer4010]

I wouldn’t say Toby Fox had a great life prior to Undertale. I don’t know him, but from what I understand he almost exclusively ate Cheez-its with peanut butter (or something like that, genuinely can’t remember the exact snack food combination) before making the game because he was dead broke.

[@crakhaed]

Rom-com?

[@celestialwaffle1491]

Scott wasn't a good storyteller. The fans who put together the random lore pieces into a cohesive narrative were the good storytellers.

[@Chillipeffer]

Hear, hear

[@IBigPrivateDickChinchillaI]

I still think he had a complete story told in 1-3 but after that I think he just winged it.

[@mr.dr.kaiser4912]

No, they were bad storytellers, too.

[@scottygagnon4287]

@@mr.dr.kaiser4912 nah, they were passionate and trying to assemble a puzzle with half its pieces missing.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

Untrue. Scott was obviously a good storyteller. Your implication he was "faking it till he made it" is laughable at best. You try doing what he did, and tell me he's not a good storyteller. By fnaf 2, he had an outline of the story in his mind.

[@internet.person]

Kris running up at the screen and decking me was scarier than anything I've seen from any of the latest FNAF games

[@Tran3x72]

Fr

[@att6844]

I never expected a video essay about fnaf and undertale to leave me feeling so inspired - absolutely marvelous, thank you and keep up the amazing work.

[@nebulanyancat4533]

Love how this video was mostly communicating the frustration that came with Scott Cawthon’s storytelling in FNaF, and I am all for it

[@КовальовМихайло]

what is the tendancy of low subscriber youtubers being so high quality

[@ChiaroscuroxX]

High sub channels are not necessarily high quality, they're just following the Meta and hopefully reach a point of buoyancy once they're big enough. The meta changes but I know you've seen it (scary games, react vidya, 10000000 degree knives etc). The algorithm is dogshit and doesn't spread quality content it spreads "high engagement/sharability" content

[@Thevoidconsumesall]

The soul is still intact.

[@deppygcreations784]

every high quality channel had low subs at one point in time so

[@TheSquishyBoi]

Algorithms dislike long wait times for episodes encouraging people to post slop in some form to get viewers up.

[@MigWith]

for reaal

[@TheMajorMan]

Absolutely fucking hilarious how two of the most recognized games in modern history are works of divine intervention and a fever dream

[@Jack-Riley]

Despite how much I always consume content about these two developers and their respective games, you managed to add a very refreshing perspective by comparing them from this new angle. Really well done work. Very excited to see what you come up with next.

[@sonicmeerkat]

honestly gotta love how the theorist sides of both fandoms while both combing their series for any detail the two series have completely different fan theory cultures. where undertale and deltarune have people analysing lietmotifes in the music to find hidden connections like isolating the "freedom theme" from the deltarune super bosses and picking out ghaster theme motifs throughout or generally trying to find any detail without controdiction, fnaf theorys just tend to mash shit together and ignore previous lore by either combining book retcons or ignoring them without understanding the basic "different world, same rules" that comic books do with their alternative universes. though i'll admit even the most game centric theorys that incorporate details only listed in the books are messy, like either the store burning killed nothing or the mega molton freddy is an agony creature... which is just the suffering of the souls so either way they aren't put to rest so why include it? the perfect ending is already ruined, it's the second one to be cause 3 didn't even get a year to stay conclusive. one thing i really appreciate about undertale though is, you don't have to understand the lore, you can just play the funny monster game and get an emotional ending, with security breach it's supposed to be the AAA debute of fnaf to the masses yet the true final boss is the fucking purple guys corpse ready for the third time lucky sacrificial burning, not even fans of the series expected his return so soon and not in a good way, in a "why does he have more screentime than the main antagonist in her debute game?" kinda way.

[@rockstarherospirit]

FNAF is a mess, but it is a fun mess. Hearing how much Scott struggled on his game developer career and how it effected him really is sad, I hope he is doing better. The story of how he took criticisms and turned them into a really good horror game is truly inspiring.

[@Nugcon]

Fnaf's lore is a dumpster fire but it's OUR dumpster fire

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

Just cut the lore off at 6 and the mess is at least presentable and cohesive. But still complicated. Scott cawthon is the king of indie development.

[@wismuel]

@@Very_Silly_Individual I feel like all of the games after Pizza Sim make the lore MORE cohesive since games like SB try to add explanations to things in the first four games that didn't have them.

[@Very_Silly_Individual]

@@wismuel they do add certain explanations to things, yeah. But they do it the expense of what made those games enjoyable in the first place. Not every question needs to be answered right away. and all the big important questions had essentially been answered by the 6th game. Everything after is the fnaf equivalent of filler.

[@zemellion26]

@@Very_Silly_Individualbut it’s not if it is canon- canon can’t be filler.

[@imparanoiiid]

I ... Had no idea that Scott was responsible for the gobgobgabgalab

[@0og]

and i livr books