For Honor - Dodge Timings against Bashes

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This video was a lot of work.
I hope the info is helpful and shines some light on why certain bashes are considered stronger than others.
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[@fkkfreeze]

○ Download Amino and search to join For Honor Amino: aminoapps.onelink.me/4eRt/Freeze ○ Follow me: freeze

[@SneakyBeaky1]

I joined! Well I joined awhile ago. Sweet community.

[@VidalTheKing-]

Thank you, we're constantly blessed with these super helpful videos! Keep it up!

[@siratthebox]

One of the things you can do against a bash on certain characters, such as warden, is attack. What's the windows to attack people out of their bash, regardless of possible mixups from the basher?

[@VidalTheKing-]

@@siratthebox Attacking is the smart way to go but attacking conq's is very situational. Smart conq's only delay it so if you throw a light they'll eat the light and be stopped. Best choice is throw a heavy if you know they'll do the bash so you can properly punish them for it now that if you do dodge it you can't punish it

[@VidalTheKing-]

But the timing personally I'm not sure of.

[@kirbygriffin1]

Imagine having an unblockable attack 😂 This post was made by Peacekeeper gang

[@FedoraFlickNick]

kirby griffin laughs in 400ms

[@SneakyBeaky1]

Nicholas Doumenis Laughs in free ad mortem after light parry.

[@dracolerro2592]

SneakyBeaky1 laughs in half of your health gone after a wall splat (incredibilis)

[@SneakyBeaky1]

Eddy 3 Stackz Laughs in now best confirmed kill off cc (long arm)

[@eduardoperi9897]

>Orochi gang has joined the chat

[@ogmudbone9093]

Thank you freeze very cool

[@SneakyBeaky1]

Well would you look at the time. Time for Lawbringer rework!

[@DaddyGflexNuts]

LB neutral bash is so garbo it didnt even get a brief clip in the video... sad mortem......

[@UrielManX7]

3:10 That's 100% true, the less movement there is in an animation, the harder is to react, that's why Conq bash is so hard to dodge, because the way the animation was made, it looks like it starts instantly since there's no movement transition from the dash to bash, Warlord is similar. This is something that I've thought of since like in S4 or so, but never thought to bring it to reddit since my experience there is ppl down vote to hell anything they don't like, regardless of it is constructive or not, and also I did not, and still not have faith in the devs to making changes for the best; so it would have been like shouting to a wall, just like this youtube comment.

[@Viltch]

"For fook sake lads, its free" - Love that line

[@thelordofcow5639]

Dont forget that massive difference in punishability

[@Zayl1016]

On subject of the similar time but some harder to dodge, I was just talking about this to some friends. LB's top light is 500ms but it consistently hits even at high skilled gameplay where normal lights wouldn't land as consistently, even if they have the same time as his top light. It honestly, I think, has to do with the amount of stimulus your eye receives from the action, since with LB's top light, he literally keeps his arms and body in the same spot, just shifts them forward. The more changes that occur with the motion, outside of the guard widget, the better your brain can process and respond. It is also why I think Nuxia's lights are so nasty. They're 400ms, but like with LB's top light, her body stays relatively still and she just brings an arm forward.

[@itsmaken5551]

Finally a bash video! Thank you Freeze!

[@Ugrasrava]

THANK YOU. I've been trying to convince the muppets since BP launched that Tenebris Rising isn't nearly as oppressive as Conq's bash despite looking better on paper, and this video provides evidence.

[@VermillionMonk]

Besides the ridiculously fast recovery that makes it nearly impossible to punish, I completely agree with you

[@TheMicology]

this was really informative, thanks freeze!

[@Xyrotec14]

What people don't see or want to see is the fact that an opener is something that is supposed to force people not to turtle. It shouldn't be a characters main source of damage. I would really like to see a rework of bashes in general so you don't just get guaranteed 15/20 dmg in. How about something like Lawbringer has right now on a shove. A light that will always hit if not dodged(20 dmg I think would be fine there) but instead you can also gb to catch them in a dodge. Something along the lines of rework or nerf has to happen since bashes shouldn't remain as they are right now.

[@SB_kilsgb]

Yes but people as a result use these openers as the only go to attack due to how save it is, I've played this game since beta and I've always loved this game no matter how unstable it was at times. I never stopped playing, I never gave up on the game until things like the Conq and Valk reworks. In diamond play I can tell you all people do is exploit the fastest gayest move over and over to win and they do nothing else, imo that is not how this game is supposed to be. As a matter of fact, in beta and in the beginnning/middle of the game; it was in some ways much better than it is now.

[@chokonnit7337]

What a great idea let's give all heroes a 50/50

[@SB_kilsgb]

@@chokonnit7337 haha well youre joking but they well on their way there alrdy with the recent buffs

[@chokonnit7337]

@@SB_kilsgb oh fuck nvm I just realized you understood the joke. Nothing to see here.

[@Xyrotec14]

@@chokonnit7337 Rather a halfway decent 50/50 than a bash that's almost guaranteed to hit.

[@KingTigerGuy]

Im wondering now the difference between the damage stun on bps vs conqs attacks going into the bash, just from playing i feel like i have a window of maybe 100ms to dodge the bp bash if they hit me with a light, whereas conq i feel like i have an age to do so, maybe the follow up bash is just a lot slower on conq than the neutral bash?

[@doritoman2593]

TL;DW For Conqueror: You have a 60 ms window to dodge all delays, and no window to dodge all delays AND CGB. For Black Prior: You have a 160 ms window to dodge all delays, and a 100 ms window to dodge all delays AND CGB. This is what gives Black Prior's zone the purpose of catching that window. Though, some would still argue that a 100 ms window to avoid all outcomes is still not easily reproducible, making it still a viable option. I would argue that the damage and recovery of Black Prior's bash is what needs adjustment, not its speed.

[@iiequinox8044]

Yeah, I'm a warlord main and his headbutt's recovery is what I think all really fast bashes should have.

[@yungmalaria]

I use the zone at the end of the BP empty dash to catch dodges, highly recommend it. I don’t think his bash recovery is problematic, just the damage.

[@NKaldis]

Is there any difference whatsoever between a side dodge and a back dodge besides the spacing it creates after successfully avoiding an attack?

[@kolt45gaming]

"For fuck sake lads, it's free!" Absolute legend.

[@CaptainVallois]

Hahaaaaaaa the infamous conq's bash video! :D I'm happy you explained that, I didn't know the earliest possible dodge timing could have such an influence. Thank you. And I guess BP has the same bash dodge frames as WL (given how early you can dodge WL's headbutt)?

[@zodakmozzila9719]

Aye thats me in the amino chat talking at 0:20

[@cIoudbank]

the only problem with bashes it how nonpunishable they are

[@PinkPrior]

Conqs is punishable

[@InfamousTub]

Strongest Hero punishment on prediction is not the same as punishment on reaction. I don’t mind moves you have to predict, like unblockable 50/50’s in combos. But to have a move out of neutral that you can spam and it makes the opponent have to predict what you’re doing to get a punish is stupid.

[@darianbabayaga629]

Use raider he has the best guardbrake

[@mournfulslasher940]

U can punish wardens

[@Popo-oy3by]

@@PinkPrior how on earth is 13 damage punishable 😂. if he was able to get a guarantee heavy than I agree 100% but the only thing you can get after a shield bash is a light. It makes sense why he has that as a move. It's because conq literally has no offensive game once or ever he has 0 combos just endless chains of lights or heavys. his heavys are so slow there easy to block and even his lights are pretty fucking slow tbh so I don't know why people even have the balls to complain about shield bash. The only move you have is charging up your heavy that's it. his zones are whatever

[@not_a_wise_man9772]

So, instead of slowing down attacks and bashes by miliseconds, could changing the animation make the move more agreeable while still keeping it's properties? Yeah, as if the devs would ever spend the time and money to do it, they don't even synk the animations that are already broken like shugoki and JJ.

[@J_just_J_yes]

baby steps, at least they update the animation for berserker so now feinting doesn't feel as snappy as before *shrugs*

[@doomslayerfreya1578]

How does this affect deflects?

[@Josh-kx4zo]

Do all characters have dodge capabilities? Like would a Highlander struggle to dodge the Conq's bash more than an Orochi would?

[@TheMehkey]

But what is the dodge startup?

[@blackdojo]

Finally some good fucking food. "Me seeing this video"

[@mieciowiesiu1804]

if they changed the neutral conq bash to look like the one with the wind-up after softfeinting heavies it would be much easier to dodge

[@leventcelik6597]

I really want to know your opinion on conq bash.

[@Tulkeleth]

Hey there Freeze, I'd like to ask if you plan on updating Peacekeeper max punishment now that she's been tweaked, maybe there is some new optimal punish now, or is the old one from the first time she was reworked still valid. PS: a Nobushi max punish update would be nice as well, the one you have still lists GB as an option after parrying for close range attacks.

[@fkkfreeze]

the Nobushi one is in the works the PK one... dunno... only number changes afaik. The punishes itself are still the same, just the values changed. And well, side heavy on GB.

[@CreamCheeseTho]

Good vid. Have you already done a video comparing how long an animation lasts start to finish. Then compared that same animations time to how long the red indicator is shown for? edit: Reason being, sometimes I feel like the red indicator shows later than the animation start up.

[@averynewtown2782]

i just wish i had better control over conqs bash. like if i side step somebody and coulda guard broke him for a heavy punish but instead i bash him by mistake and only get a bash light. it sucks

[@andreazhab]

I'm a bit confused. Don't i-frames start at 200 ms into the dodge? How can I dodge a bash by dodging 100 ms before it connects? And also, isn't Conq's delayed bash 433 ms instead of 500?

[@fkkfreeze]

that's why I said it's surprising. the 433 dont matter, as it's simply the length of the indicator that is affected, not the move itself.

[@Mustacheoro]

Would you kindly do an updated version of gladiator's punishes? Thinking about playing him more, but I don't know punishes.

[@minikiwi6796]

Watch the guide by KingMisty it has all Max punishes except toestabbing someone when you parry and they go out of stamina due to the parry.

[@syndirsloth5574]

Is there any difference with Conqs heavy feint into shield bash? I get caught by that one more than anything. Its tracked me 180 degrees around the conq on several occasions. It almost seems impossible to dodge. Ive tested it with Tiandi's dodge heavy and it catches him almost every single time.

[@logankladue]

You have to dodge that one much later than the animation makes you think. It's pretty consistent once you make that realization.

[@yungmalaria]

You can roll from it pretty easily regardless if you can’t figure out the timing for it

[@yungmalaria]

Me freeze a gamer told me this patch has given 100 ms more time to dodge bashes, can you confirm this?

[@fkkfreeze]

it hasn't

[@bubsenseijebe2993]

im hella inconsistent in my parrying and dodges... do you guys loook at the indicators or more so on the animation of the character?

[@chacharealsmooth941]

Animation gives more info, try looking on it

[@yungmalaria]

Depends on attack, I dodge 80% of warlord headbutts but I don’t even attempt to dodge from conqs.

[@bubsenseijebe2993]

Executor will try it out, will need getting used to

[@faresel-fayoumi2332]

Is Valks shield bash 600 or 500ms? because it's hard for me to dodge it on reaction if it was 600ms. Is it like freeze said because of animation or do I need just more practice?

[@yungmalaria]

Shield crush (heavy softfeint) or the fullstance when you let it go?

[@faresel-fayoumi2332]

@@yungmalaria the heavy softfeint

[@kingspade461]

Hey maybe add in the overlay (purple area) for warden too! His is actual pretty easy to get down with some practice and it can beat all his mixups I believe

[@SeveRUS67]

More infographics please! That was awesome

[@Blackwolf-ud5je]

There is one thing I don't understand/ confused. This 133ms value you show, is this the time of how much the dodge progressed at the moment the bash would have hit? This value should be 200ms, since this is when I frame starts no?

[@fkkfreeze]

this is why I said it's surprising... s seem to start sooner now

[@Blackwolf-ud5je]

@@fkkfreeze thx, it's wierd cause it is not the way with blockable, none-bash attacks. Feels like there is two different s for it. Before the Tiandi buff, he could dodge bashes easily with his dodge heavy, but could be hit out of it with regular attacks, I think this two is related to eachother.

[@infinitefalcon1589]

Might be too soon to ask but do you think you would eventually quit this game like Spliced did?

[@illusions500]

Everyone will, my guess is freeze will stop sometime after they are done with year 4, if we have one. That'll be the last batch of character we will get for this game definetly

[@dracolerro2592]

Lost at that point they’ll work on for honor 2

[@illusions500]

@@dracolerro2592 I'm simply going off of whether or not year 3 is successful, I feel they are already hinting at it with the character roster looking incomplete

[@aeroblaze4]

No way in hell spliced isn't gonna play LB rework. This just feels like a publicity stunt tbh

[@irfankamil8302]

Spliced already quit?

[@oliverdijzel6009]

Finally!!!

[@haruhas7604]

That's truth some attacks feel a lot easier to React to despite them being the same Speed for example Goki and Orochi have the same neutral lights but it is much easier to Parry Goki than orochi at least for me lol

[@XcocomocoX]

It’s literally just animations that fuck us over

[@Shinigginaz]

This doesn't mean that s start earlier right? Bashes just have an exception for whatever reason

[@Shiftinggers]

Imo, the reason why people find it easier to dodge the Valk's bash compared to Glad's zone bash is because Valkyrie's bash is always a soft-cancel of a heavy while the Gladiator's zone bash is most often than not thrown from neutral

[@lemonynoodlez396]

“ for fuck sake lads “

[@Scuddi]

The game revolves around bashes and dashes so this is kind of a funny video, being about both.

[@hunterraby3459]

Can we get a bash vs bash video? And maybe a video on bashes hitting someone mid dodge attack and it giving the symbol of being bashed but no real effect

[@QuietusFH]

0:20 Yea that's me 😎

[@ivanemax]

Maybe this is how they made you able to dodge vortigers bash while out of stamina

[@_ShiX]

Just wanted to ask you about something, you said at the very end about Vortiger's recovery, as I don't understand why it should be changed to be a useless tool... I get the damage nerfs some people suggest, but certainly not the recovery! So, why do you think it needs to be nerfed?

[@fkkfreeze]

wouldn't you be fine it was more along the lines of conq's? it just feels too safe for what kind of damage it does.

[@_ShiX]

@@fkkfreeze I just really like the fact dodge attacks can't punish it, but it's true the damage is overturned and should be nerfed to at least 15 I would say. I don't want it to be similar to conq, but rather keep it as it is right now.

[@fkkfreeze]

I understand, and your sentiment is shared by a lot of your fellow top players afaik. And yeah, the recovery for the guard and CGB/dodging is different on a lot of moves. I'd love if they made this a thing for more moves. A discrepancy between those 2 values. how many characters can punish BP's bash onr eaction now? shaman and Raider, right?

[@_ShiX]

​@@fkkfreeze Shaman I think only on an early dodge right? Conq and Warden, with a 50/50, could as well punish the bash. Well and everyone on a pre dodge which normally means a 50/50 read that in some cases can even favor the defender with an almost 100/0, as far as I have seen. And yeah by making it less safe, the bash will lose massive amounts of viability, due to it being a rather easy to react bash with one dodge timing. So I would like to let the recovery stay with a proper damage nerf, to prevent safe and character-specific punishes, that can encourage turtling. It also makes the bash less like other bashes in the game, I would say. ^^

[@fkkfreeze]

I thought shaman can backdodge bash it... I think Zac said it, but maybe I misunderstood. and yeah, I was thinking of actually cutting out that line, but I dunno. It just feels frustrating if you continously dodge it, but cant do fuckall against it. I guess I kinda disagree as whole with the approach to that bash. single dodge timing, high damage and very low recovery. It just seems like it's skewed in all the wrong directions.

[@JacobSauers]

I don’t think you should be punished for dodging “early”. I can’t stand getting hit because as soon as I see the indicator I dodge, yet it’s too “early” so the attack still lands

[@lultimebiscuit9688]

Yes

[@corax1996]

I guess that side deflects are even harder to pull off now. Before they were 66ms but after these changes, these are what, 33ms? They are basically unusable now... And to think they are supposed to be 200ms...

[@downfall963]

I have the best way to learn how to dodge ANYTHING. Always dodge like you’re playing orochi and trying to deflect everything.

[@elijahjenkins846]

I swear either nerf vortiger recovery or his damage just a small nerf and he'd be perfectly fine

[@mrxmayo9324]

Microwave gang

[@teinmeizeshi5209]

Thank god, Conq 2.0 is much less annoying than v. 1.0

[@NoahNitschmann2013]

Cam someone tell me where his accent is from? Id guess scottish

[@halfcarnage6259]

Germany cus in one Video he used that fotomode and it was in german

[@NoahNitschmann2013]

Im german and in my opinion thats clearly not german

[@fkkfreeze]

I am german. But I try not to sound like one :)

[@halfcarnage6259]

@@NoahNitschmann2013 told you so

[@NoahNitschmann2013]

@@fkkfreeze ooooh ok haha nice one, i seriously thought about scottish, especially with the "fooocking". Love your work, GG

[@A_better_alternative]

I just can't dodge them at all. It's been so long since I played and I picked it back up recently. But fuck bashes are op if your new. It's hard as to dodge on controller.

[@HamodNiko]

Funny enough I can dodge conquerer consistently on reaction but I can never for the life of me react to black priors bash

[@Lucky-iy3dq]

Raider gang

[@Darknesssgshjjdjdjd]

Noice

[@hysteria13]

Where is my "how's it goin' everybody?" :O :O anyone else missing it from the beginning? :O

[@RealAfricanPatriot]

Well I disagree that Conq's is harder to dodge than BP's. Maybe I am just used to conq's bash spam but in my opinion his animation is way better pronounced. Every time conqueror bashes he clenches his buttocks in a very well telegraphed way and no other move in conquerors tool set shares similar animations. While for black prior bash start up looks like a heavy attack start up/left side dodge. This fucks with my brain.

[@Krystalmyth]

Timing for Dodging Tenebris: It already happened or you're too late.

[@chandlerstlouis8110]

Why does every knight have a bash except pk lol Another thing- A great informational video would be what takes priority over what when it comes to bashes, grabs, kicks, etc. There’s a lot of annoying stuff in there that I don’t understand, and the game always seems to favour the enemies regardless of who I play

[@yungmalaria]

What bashes do orochi and nuxia have?

[@vaikos]

freeze for dev, right fucking now

[@novasketch8658]

Probably not the timing, it's gotta be hitbox. Hitbox would explain this issue big time

[@mt_dovah]

y’all see the fan art at 10 seconds 😉

[@austink4596]

7:20 raider mains are laughing. Source I'm a raider main. We always get ya after a whiffed bash!

[@NeedBackup_]

I miss being able to go through bashes with shugoki armor, they should have left that property for his attacks

[@MirrorReaper]

yeah, nope.

[@NeedBackup_]

@@MirrorReaper no, yes

[@zachariz1490]

Артемий Захаров i used to agree, but his passive HA on every attack (especially light) would make him op. Light on reaction or on prediction to avoid a bash

[@zeal0tseven57]

@@zachariz1490 He did not mean to make his attacks uninterruptable, only give them the ability to trade also with bashes.

[@EGB_469]

You just said "he didn't want to make them uninterruptible, just uninterruptible."

[@CallMeMark231]

I thought that bashes were a bit easier to dodge

[@sandguyman]

This made me realize how horrible the bash animations are compared to their hitbox

[@roninara6739]

when ur a rep 53 Ara main & only watch this shit to counter bashes since you know...... they don’t give fucking samurai hero’s any good bash attacks. & if they did everyone would bitch about it.

[@Adercu]

Black prior's light bash needs a nerf

[@sownheard]

They need to make it so after a good dodge you can punished the Black Pior

[@EmptyTenementSpirit]

@@sownheard You can. It's a prediction dodge.

[@ungobungo7986]

@@EmptyTenementSpirit yeah not with gb..

[@iambatman8803]

Bashes that requires read or insane reaction to dodge, should be punished with 2 top heavys if dodged!

[@anirudhv5940]

Also you should delete the game

[@iambatman8803]

Oh my god are u a optimal BP?

[@NightingaleBrawlhalla]

I never understood the whole struggling to react to bashes like gladiators zone attack, it's literally 2.5x the reaction window of an average player.

[@zachariz1490]

Nightingale animations. It can also people off guard

[@NightingaleBrawlhalla]

@@zachariz1490 But even a person with a reaction speed over 300ms.. you'd still be able react to it very easily. See orange = You dodge.

[@zeal0tseven57]

@@NightingaleBrawlhalla Ever heard of For Honor on console?

[@SilentLegion96]

Nightingale I think it’s because Gladiator’s zone can be executed while in neutral stance; pretty much every other bash attacks either starts with a dodge (Conqueror, BP), a soft feint (Valkyrie), or after an attack (BP’s lights). So that may give the receiver hints of what’s coming.

[@NightingaleBrawlhalla]

@@zeal0tseven57 I have people I know on console that can reliably react to attacks on console so using the "console" is really getting old.

[@3lectronX]

I cant dodge Warden at all

[@zebrom7994]

Amino is for the most part populated by otherkins/furries/bigenderdemiqueers But I won’t lie, the FH community on it is great.

[@retardretarded1145]

Freeze: how to dodge Sb? Git gud

[@slowrevive4015]

I want the secret 😡

[@fkkfreeze]

bara will spill one

[@slowrevive4015]

LUL you’re quick

[@CaptainRx-ss3rt]

I don’t understand why tank character exist, they are slowing the game and are impossible to deal with if they decide to turtle

[@user-qi2yu4wi6e]

IMO bp's bashes are way harder to dodge. I can easily understand when conq bashes(both delayed and non-delayed sb). But bp's bash confuses me. I can't dodge it almost at all situations, same for the combo bash after a light. Plus conq's bash drains less stamina and "deals" only 2/3 of bp's damage(and sometimes even 1/3(when he hits light-bash-light)). But i hope it's only for me

[@zachariz1490]

UnicPlay bp's dodge timing after a light is particular. You have to input at the right moment. If you play assassins with zero dead zone, it becomes significantly harder since guard switch makes you unable to dodge

[@user-qi2yu4wi6e]

@@zachariz1490 i mostly play highlander and centurion

[@brothatscrazy3418]

I found dodging BP's bashes immensely easier to dodge than Conq's. I'm really good at dealing with attacks that have pronounced animations so BP is pretty easy while Conq can be difficult.

[@orvonton7830]

Well I'm early 5 comments 112 views 25 likes seems legit

[@PulseEditor]

Woah im hella early oops

[@josephl447]

I only just starting maining conqueror Why u do dis

[@JewMagic]

Am I only who think that Conq's and BP's bashes are unreactable? Am not cyber sportsman to predict it. But 100ms, rly?

[@zachariz1490]

Vi you have more than that to dodge and the bash from bp is 500ms. 100ms is the very last moment after the bash would've hit you you can dodge. Black prior's bash is reactable. Conq's is 400ms. Predict. That's all you can do

[@Flowilty]

@@zachariz1490 what? conq and bp bash are the exact same speed

[@zachariz1490]

baxtyr are they? Was sure it was 400 and 500

[@EGB_469]

No, they're both 500. Freeze even says in this video.

[@zachariz1490]

baxtyr just checked freeze's video. I was wrong my bad.

[@ElekrisLP]

Imagine having undodgeable or uninterruptible attacks 😂 This post was made by Valk gang

[@ameliorategibberish8027]

Maybe an undodgeable? But hyper armor? gtfo lmao. It's stupid for most characters who aren't either a heavy or a heavy hyrbrid--especially on more than one move.

[@RafaelSantos-pi8py]

If bots can dodge bashes so can human players.

[@postathehun6235]

BP and Conq are the laziest characters ever made, if they would have anything else to do other than shield bashing or full block cheesing, people would not complain

[@danielzuve13]

Cant we just remove bashes so shit players will actually have to learn the game to win?

[@brothatscrazy3418]

Yes let's turn this game into staring contest, top tier idea

[@danielzuve13]

@@brothatscrazy3418 no, lets see who does the most bashes for free damage to win , i say every character needs a medium speed unblockable and we solve the staring contest problem

[@brothatscrazy3418]

@@danielzuve13 What do you consider medium speed for an unblockable?

[@danielzuve13]

@@brothatscrazy3418 600-700ms ? Maybe like JJ's heavy finisher? Not sure how many ms that has tho

[@danielzuve13]

@@brothatscrazy3418 or make it so you get no free damage after a bash