Forced Movement in Pathfinder 2e Remastered

[@HowItsPlayed]

Minor Correction: As pointed out by a few comments below, the multiple attack penalty suffered by Ombi in the example would be -4, not -5.

[@adriandellatorre2489]

Great video! A little correction: assuming that Ombi is using his Free Hand to Shove in the first example, his MAP for shoving with his 2nd Action would be -4, not -5. Source: Player's Core, pg 234, sidebar "Multiple Attacks With Athletics"

[@Tomivasek]

Came to say the same thing - also with Agile Grace or Flurry that could be reduced further. But this example is intended to be high level I assume.

[@Ofley_Adventures]

Excellent topic. It is really good to know that reaction attacks would not work with forced movement, and yet it also means that protective reactions from the enemy that is being moved wouldn't work either. Really like this ruling. Have a successful day everyone! Thanks for the vid.

[@bweenie]

I'm glad your doing these for the remaster. It's really helpful as an experienced gm to get reminded of details in the remaster that I'vr overlooked. Also, I really appreciate how meticulous and rigorous your analysis is

[@bartongattis8580]

You make learning pf2e much easier. MVP. Thanks for all you do

[@HowItsPlayed]

You're very welcome!

[@swampgoat6343]

The token you use for Ombi has been an npc named dagmar in my campaign for two years now lol. Love that token

[@CyclingFish]

I believe there is a mistake in 5:36. Forced Movement isn’t affected by difficult terrain. “When an effect forces you to move, or if you start falling, the distance you move is defined by the effect that moved you, not by your Speed.” (Re PC1 422). Assuming the squares are 5 feet. If NPC 1 and NPC 2 are within 5 feet of each other, and both in greater difficult terrain. If NPC 1 successfully shoved NPC 2, they’d still move 5 feet. Because the distance NPC 2 is defined by the effect (Shove), not their speed.

[@AgentNos]

I was going to mention this, flipped through my copy of PC1 to find the rule saying that difficult terrain affected forced movement but couldn't and thought i was losing my mind xD

[@swingspst]

Have had the situation come up where we argued if you are grabbed but successfully shove the enemy away whether or not it works and releases you from being grabbed. The conclusion seems to be yes it does by raw. Also, tiny PC or NPC could be forced into your space and allowed to stay there I believe

[@HowItsPlayed]

Good point... I always forget about the tiny PCs.

[@VengenceWolf]

Keep up the good work!

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks!

[@josh4275]

Ive always wondered if a player (or creature) would get to use their reaction to grab an edge if they where thrown off a cliff or bridge. Say a PC or a creature using whirling throw or whirling toss.

[@HowItsPlayed]

I believe if you determine that they fall within reach of a ledge, then they get the reaction. If you rule that they were thrown further away than the edge (e.g., 2 squares across the pit), then they would not.

[@VoltasP]

Hey Dave, I have a question for Rule Reminder-- How would you handle a player that wants to make a Molotov Cocktail? My first instinct is, "Well, the Alchemist archtype is right there" but they do make a good point that it's not exactly chemical engineering to fill a glass bottle with lamp oil, stuff a rag in, and light that sucker. I can't find any "Improvised explosive" rules, but it feels wrong to basically give everyone an explosive that costs nothing but lamp oil and rags. How does a GM navigate this dilemma? Do I just rule that if the players have access to Molotov cocktails, then so will monsters and pray that the threat of mutually assured destruction sates their hunger for alchemical items cribbed directly from the Anarchist Cookbook?

[@HowItsPlayed]

I've been meaning to make a video about improvised actions, and this might be a good example. In this case, I would treat the molotov cocktail as an improvised weapon; -2 to attack and it would otherwise function as a lesser alchemist's fire. I would also require 2 actions to make it, assuming they already have the bottle in their hands.

[@VoltasP]

@@HowItsPlayed Thank you! Do you think it would be too much to impose a sort of "because it was improvised and poorly made, the molotov breaks and falls to your feet, shattering and you take the damage instead" penalty for a critical fail?

[@HowItsPlayed]

@@VoltasP That sounds fine to me. Just don't roll a crit fail!

[@0NobleSix0]

Loved it, as all the other videos in this great playlist. One question: last session we had quite the debate on how to rule a "Pull" action, as there is no ruling about that on the Core Rulebook/Player Core. One player wanted to drag a grappled enemy along with him while moving 5 ft. back. How would you rule that, since the Grappled condition says that it ends as soon as the grabbing creature moves? Would you consider it as an instance of Reposition?

[@HowItsPlayed]

Yes, I think by RAW it's a Reposition action. Moving someone against their will is difficult and very slow. You would use Reposition to force the target into its new space, then a Step or Stride action to move into your next space and repeat. But, unfortunately, that wouldn't allow you to "drag" the target through the same spaces you move, as people might expect when "dragging" someone.

[@markrueful7332]

Ombi, when pushing the Devil, since he has an open hand, the MAP on the post attack push would be -4.

[@HowItsPlayed]

Thanks for catching that!

[@markrueful7332]

You are welcome. 😊 Thank you for the great content!

[@FireBowProductions]

I've never really liked the "must have a free hand" for Shove. I can think of several scenarios where you can Shove without using a hand. For instance, a kick to the chest (Arya vs Bienne is a great example), stepping forward and throwing an elbow or shoulder with your full weight can knock someone back 5 feet, and almost any polearm that does not already have the Shove trait or Club group I would argue you could make a Shove attack with (Final fight between the Wolf and Puss in Boots as an example). Anyway, that's my take on it. If you can explain to me how you are trying to Shove without a free hand and it makes sense, I typically allow it.

[@danrimo826]

I feel this for shields in particular. Tempted to allow it in my games

[@JacksonOwex]

6:39 Not only does this sound more interesting but it's also feels more realistic(yeah, yeah, it's a fantasy game but some realism still needs to applied). I might also think about having a creature being forcefully moved keeps going through the space if that character critically succeeds their save. Basically some Matrix-like stuff going on!

[@MattSH06]

How about this. Shoving someone on horseback. Do they fall off? Does the horse move too? Falling off neutralizes knight like characters big time.

[@IShallCallHimTaders]

So you can shove someone into fire, and you must also take fire damage if you yourself are carrying an enemy into fire, but can you reposition an enemy into fire?

[@HowItsPlayed]

Possibly? The book says "If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise." The current book doesn't define what a "push" or "pull" is and leaves it up to the GM to make a ruling. Previous editions of D20 games defined a "push" as forced movement where every square of the path is further from the point of origin than the previous square. And a "pull" was the opposite... every square of the path is closer to the point of origin. So, using that standard, you might be able to use reposition if you had reach and the target is 2 squares away with a firepit between you. But you wouldn't be able to use Reposition to move the target from one adjacent square into another adjacent square that had a fire in it. But, with all things, the GM can rule however they believe makes sense for the scene.

[@SirGucinnio]

What does it mean push or pull? Is Hydraulic Push "knocked back" a push? Is Gravity Well "creature moves" a pull? Is Whirling Throw "throw" a push? Hate this isn't codified :/

[@HowItsPlayed]

The current book doesn't define what a "push" or "pull" is and leaves it up to the GM to make a ruling. Previous editions of D20 games defined a "push" as forced movement where every square of the path is further from the point of origin than the previous square. And a "pull" was the opposite... every square of the path is closer to the point of origin. So, a "knock back" is likely a "push". Gravity well sounds like it's pulling towards the center. Whirling Throw sounds like a push.

[@aimanbenkhadra644]

First! Lol, this is the first and last time I do this, sorry!