Vickers-Berthier 1919 US Trials Rifle (Second Type)

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After designing the bolt action rifle that bears his name, Andre Berthier went on to experiment with self-loading designs. He developed a light machine gun in the years before World War One, but was not able to interest the French government in it. He also submitted that gun for US military consideration in 1917, but was similarly rebuffed (in fairness to the militaries, the gun was not really ready for field service). Then the US issued a request for semiautomatic should rifles in 1920, Berthier and his partners at the Vickers company dated the machine gun design into a closed-bolt, semiauto shoulder rifle. After rejection at the May 1920 trials, they redesigned the gas system to be shorter, and resubmitted another rifle to the followup tests in November of 1921. That resubmitted rifle is what we are looking at today.
Internally, the rifle’s design is actually much better than its ungainly external appearance would suggest - but it was still not good enough to interest the US military. The locking system is a two-piece tilting bolt, very similar to the eventually successful Vickers-Berthier light machine gun of the mid 1920s. A firing pin is fixed to the operating rod, and the trigger releases the whole op rod to jump forward under residual mainspring pressure to fire - much like the Lewis and FG42 designs. Clever safety and manual bolt hold open levers double as takedown pins, and the whole system is really quite modern for 1920/21. Unfortunately, the rifle suffered parts breakage and its top-mounted magazine was a major mark against it in US eyes (unfortunately, the magazine itself appears to have been lost since almost immediately after the firing trials).
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
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[@yuriyromaniw6629]

Trials Report: "We will accept this gun if it's not this gun."

[@andrewwaterman9240]

Well put! You absolutely nailed it!

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

I think the real amazing part of this gun is just how compact that trigger mechanism is

[@warmongerairsoft]

TheGoldenCaulk where the hell have you been? Haven’t seen you around in the comment section lately

[@samholdsworth3957]

@@warmongerairsoft he died

[@Around_blax_dont_relax]

@@samholdsworth3957 he contracted AIDS in a kid sand airbag accident with an elderly person

[@Dapstart]

@@Around_blax_dont_relax AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDS!!!

[@londonjolly9174]

As well designed internally as this thing is, I can't get over the fact that this looks like it was made by an insane engineer. 1920s were wild times indeed.

[@vettekid3326]

I can see why it was never seriously considered for adoption. The disassembly sequence with all the small parts that could be dropped and lost was a nightmare when you think about being in the hands of draftees. A busy gun like that would be better suited to a specialized gun crew that trained to a higher level than just field grunts.

[@shawnr771]

No it would still be horrible with small parts that could dropped or lost.

[@yangcheng-jyun8542]

Except it was successful, as a LMG.A much more busy gun

[@Todesnuss]

Like a machine gun crew for example? What a coincidence.

[@tonyovermyer5368]

Especially when the gun is covered in mud and all jammed up.

[@sumvs5992]

And also war had become trenches full of water and mud. You lose a piece there and it's gone for good, disappeared into hell for being a component of such a bad gun.

[@2526ac]

It wouldn't surprise me if the cracked open stock may have been caused by air pressure, that tube would move a fair bit of air ahead of it and the pressure just from that may have been enough to split the wood if it was a close fit. And as pointed out any contact would cause splitting.

[@VegasCyclingFreak]

25:39 Complex but simple to take apart. Some interesting ideas in this rifle, and I also like how they were able to have things serving multiple purposes, very clever. From the looks of it, that would have been a very expensive rifle to manufacture.

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

I suspect that the replacement bolt may be related to the broken stock. Perhaps a round with an excess pressure caused a catastrophic event.

[@warphammer]

It would also neatly explain where the magazine went. Into pieces. ...come to think of it, what's the documentation of the trials like? If that's what happened they almost certainly would have made note of 'well, this one kind of blew up.'

[@sirdiff1]

You thought Ian was done with berthier rifles, huh?

[@narcoleptic8982]

Seems like it would be fairly easy for the gas piston to get misaligned with it's port and do some damage.

[@WalkerKlondyke]

That firing pin??? Looks like something right out of the Khyber Pass Quality Machining & Manufacturing Co.

[@AshesWorkshop]

Only the finest

[@wendycoffey8283]

glooc perfection

[@Cwhandle]

Laughs in BAR.

[@bconneau658]

Ungodly alliance between french engineer and an english company. Doomed from the start ^^

[@cptreech]

But his LMG very nearly beat out the gun that would become the Bren.

[@royperkins3851]

Not really it created a light machine gun that served from the middle 30s until the 50s in India, Pakistan and Burma

[@LUR1FAX]

The Vickers-Berthier machine gun was pretty good.

[@heikkiremes5661]

Having only ever disassembled/assembled the RK-62, every other weapon looks so damn complex.

[@Ni999]

Completely met and surpassed steampunk complexity with over 7 minutes to go for the explanation for the mechanism.

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you , Ian.

[@SeizureSpecialist]

I can't really understand how this thing would be comfortable to shoot in any configuration (SLR or LMG) with a stock and grip that long. Also I think you misspoke when you said "field-stripped", Ian. I think I'd call that 'workshop-bench-stripped' :D

[@frenekel]

Another piece of knowledge delivered by Gun Jesus^^

[@BrandMalone24]

Some hot steaming knowledge haha

[@frenekel]

@@jeffcarroll1990shock Thats why were talking about the Gun Jesus, he brings the knowledge and shooting fun^^ Despite that its as far as i could go with believing, not really into all the religion stuff, but hey to each his own :)

[@thecorbies]

Hi Ian. I've watched sooo many of your FW videos, and I NEVER cease to be amazed at how well you know your stuff. And it's not just like you're reading it off 'cue cards', you know it 1st hand; presumably because it's of great interest to you. Re' this gun. It seems so complicated compared to many others, and when you were explaining it, it made me wonder whether you had ever designed a gun of any kind? I imagine that you've got more than enough knowledge in your head to do so. Anyway, thanks for sharing all these videos with us. Regards Mark in the UK.

[@LOUDcarBOMB]

Today is my birthday and this is really cool to see released on it, kind of like a pseudo gift.

[@Vampirization]

I love these longer episodes.

[@worldtraveler930]

But where is Ian's universal gun disassembly tool?

[@BrandMalone24]

So well preserved

[@korblborp]

i gotta say that this adds to my questions about stock shapes, though it's more specific to this one in particular rather than the ones i have in general.

[@nerome619]

I wonder if Ian will buy this for his French collection ... another French unicorn!

[@d4ngru5h83]

No I don't think so, I remember him saying if he had his eye on a gun he wouldn't put up a video on it, or at least not until after the auction?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

This one is going to be much too rich for my blood. :(

[@d4ngru5h83]

@@ForgottenWeapons we have been blessed by the almighty gun Jesus replying to us!

[@nerome619]

@@ForgottenWeapons Would it actually interest you? It's not really an issued firearm that saw service and there are lots of prototypes. I always had the impression you'd prefer a complete collection of service weapons.

[@SuperAWaC]

so many machining operations to make this

[@matthewspencer5086]

This is a closed-bolt rifle, where more metal moves between the pulling of the trigger and the firing of the cartridge, than on many open-bolt guns. I wouldn't expect it to win many target matches! However, as the ancestor of the Vickers-Berthier machine-gun, it is also the ancestor of the Vickers "K" gun used in considerable numbers by the RAF and Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm in WW2 -and subsequently famously used by the SAS and "Phantom" on armed jeeps. One advantage as a machine-gun would be that the primer gets a really good high-momentum whack each time, which might minimise misfires. By the same token, cartridges being fed get a good push, which may be how the K gun managed to work reliably with 97-round drums.

[@yop_cholo]

So... Do the various auction houses you browse for rare guns have some sort of arrangement as to which one will get you to come visit and when ? A shared custody perhaps ? :)

[@handlesarekindadumb]

Only if the alimony comes through

[@bruceinoz8002]

There is a bit about this rifle in "Hatcher's Notebook". Page 99 shows a young and keen-looking Julian Hatcher with a version in 1917. There is another photo of an early variant on page 145.

[@Leander_]

One thing that has struck me after watching Ian take a look at a bunch of trial rifles: holy shit, these things are literally one-of-a-kind, where do people FIND these things? How do they end up at an auction?

[@megabrout]

they honestly belong in museums

[@Leander_]

@@megabrout Agreed.

[@MachineGunManUFMS]

28 minutes of Gun Jesus blessing? My day has been made. Thank you, Gun Jesus!

[@napiersh1]

Good, I've got some extra time this morning before I go vote.

[@donaldholman9070]

That is a really dirty rifle. Thank you Ian.

[@JerryWoo96]

the cut in that your finger is ponting at 21:30 is for the safety such that at 23:23 when you engage the safety, it will push the oprod slightly back.

[@garrettmgrantham]

That trigger placement though, ech!

[@kenhelmers2603]

Thanks Ian :)

[@zendell37]

Makes me wonder how different these "awkward" designs would have been if they ditched the standard rifle design and went with an in line stock and forward pistol grip design.

[@jarrettbeal833]

Nothing like forgotten weapons on the drive home

[@TheArklyte]

@@joshuakarmann7488 passenger seat? Public transport(heretical thought for americans, right?;))? Tesla?

[@jarrettbeal833]

Passenger lol

[@TheArklyte]

@@joshuakarmann7488 in short? Have you seen your buses? Compare them to german or japanese ones:P Sorry, there is a stereotype here that your public transportation is so bad solely thanks to the need to promote car sales and suburdia lifestyle after WWII to keep the industry going nonstop as in the late days of the war.

[@HJDore]

Jarrett Beal god damn it stop watching KZbin and focus on the road.

[@TrinidadJamesWoods]

@@TheArklyte there is some truth to that.

[@Skankhunter420]

What an amazingly complex rifle. Holy hell.

[@randywatson8347]

Wow that handle is almost straight. But I ought to give them credits for that cool clean trigger unit. I started drewling on the machined parts around 19:20

[@rogerwhite9484]

Beautifull rifle IMO. Definately should've had a pistol grip . TY for posting this Ian.

[@BobtheHobo324]

I really hope you get the chance to take a look at one of the early type Berthier machine guns from before WW1. They had a lot of neat aspects, such as being able to swap the positions of the necessary parts like the trigger group and pistol grip to flip the entire gun upside down so you no longer had the magazine being fed from the top. It also had a lightweight water cooling system on some of the guns that I am surprised never caught much interest from any of the militaries of the time. From the literature I have read, the French military almost intentionally tried to ignore the LMG, despite Berthier himself being among their ranks. Some sources suggest that the US military (the Marines, I believe) had accepted the design of the LMG late in the First World War, but the tooling to make them had not even been completed by the end of WW1, prompting the Military to cancel the order with none of the U.S. Berthier Machine Guns ever having been made. Pictures for those curious: www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Berthier_Automatic_Rifle/123-591363/

[@viridisxiv766]

this thing looks really cool.

[@lando8913]

Man, Larry Vickers is a busy guy. Looks good for his age too.

[@arthurfrayn2652]

Very cool.

[@zacht9447]

Ian I think the reason for the Round interface piece being it's own may be for making Headspacing the gun simpler

[@BigShaneGillis]

Vickers Tactical Berthier 1919 US Trials Rifle

[@BigSwede7403]

Hmm, i can see the sudden increase in airpressure in the buffer-cutout from the cycling bolt being a possible cause for the cracking. Depending on how tight it is of course.

[@PandLantis]

It looks like it's begging for a pistol grip, a straight stock and a selector switch.

[@jerryjohnsonii4181]

Very interesting gun.

[@briarus1000]

man that looks like it was so close to being good.

[@cheesenoodles8316]

Another unicorn...well done.

[@stevenhoman7723]

Complex but interesting. However the supreme foolishness of the stock construction is amazing. It could easily be remedied by using a more sensible construction that encased the bolt assembly completely, plus added bands for strength.

[@altothex9648]

Woah the new laser rifle looks dope.

[@glennpettersson9002]

I think the guys at Vickers are still laughing about that one.

[@phillipsullivan3400]

Seems like, with that much moving mass attached to the firing pin, there would be a risk of light primer strikes. A big issue with the hard primers that were common back when.

[@greydonstautzenberger3901]

Keep it up

[@JustIn-op6oy]

The proportions of some of the mechanism is so bizarre.

[@danschneider9921]

Most dedicated steampunk individual looking at this rifle: "Its a bit much"

[@blueband8114]

That stock = Breaky breaky.

[@Dreska_]

28 minutes, strap in boys/girls

[@RockIslandAuctionCompany]

My body is ready.

[@Dreska_]

28 likes yeeehaaw

[@madrigalelect3388]

Did you assume only 2 genders?

[@TrinidadJamesWoods]

@@madrigalelect3388 I, too, was appalled.

[@choosetheright8654]

Buckle up buttercup

[@calvingreene90]

That sear on the oprod could give a bullpup a good trigger pull.

[@gavindavies793]

The little pivot piece between the bolt body & bolt head: could it double as the method of setting headspace? Or is there a removable locking block in the receiver?

[@kubrick1969]

This gun looks much modern than others from the same period....

[@timbaskett6299]

There are a couple other "minor" improvements I could think that the designs needed. The major item I see is the "none reinforced" pistol grip assembly, and spring plunger buffering in said assembly.

[@justinsavage6236]

Such a complicated piece of equipment

[@justinsavage6236]

@@bmstylee No 100%, its still more complicated than it should be, can you imagine giving it to a troop to clean

[@AtholAnderson]

Given how thick the (unbroken) grip on the stock looks, it seems like it would have been a rather awkward rifle to fire.

[@fisherthegoat]

"It looks pretty awkward, but on the inside it's better than you'd expect." -Ian McCollum

[@MrHws5mp]

Seriously think you should get a load of promotional ballpoint pens printed up with "Universal Gun Disassembly Tool" and sell them or give them out as Patreon benfits... ;-)

[@quattroconcept4]

Beatiful rifle, what a pity the magazine was lost

[@thunderbeam9166]

From a technical standpoint it’s incredible however it looks likes a nightmare to put into mass production. Not to mention there’s something about that gas system that gives me the creeps.

[@alexsmirnof]

Sometimes I fear that someday Ian will run out of guns... but no, this will never happen.

[@himlowodinmire1333]

Could it also be possible that if the tolerance on the stock was tight enough that it could have made a seal and created pressure when the rod went back causing the break? Or is the tolerance loose enough to allow air flow?

[@mattrodda1975]

Would this be an inaccurate rifle, with the extra mass of the gas piston moving forward when fired? I've probably misunderstood something.

[@amperzand9162]

It might be an unpleasant to fire rifle, all that mass would jerk you around. That doesn't necessarily imply anything about the mechanical accuracy of the design.

[@Tobascodagama]

Probably not as bad as an open bolt rifle, but yeah I had the same thought.

[@00vondough00]

Looks at home at the Valkyria Chronicles games series.

[@metalman6708]

The stock cracked because there was no place for the compressed air from the bolt moving backwards to bleed off and popped the stock open. It's the same principle as a fire piston.

[@witeshade]

So, the safety mechanism freezing everything makes it seem like it would be really easy to screw something up by, in a tense moment, trying to rack the bolt against the retaining pin.

[@richardgrier4721]

Holy shit. Field strip should be called Field trip.

[@TarterSauce]

At 21:37 Could this notch have been intended to be used for allowing a pull of the trigger to drop the bolt?

[@stephenbond1990]

Was expecting some steam punky rube goldberg contraption and found a fairly svelte rifle, i can see how an svt-like semi auto rifle could come from this

[@abaurre3]

This has to be the biggest battle rifle ever...

[@haroldellis9721]

I kind of want one, sort of an old school take on the Robinson Arms M(^ Bren configuration. I know, I know. But still...

[@christurley391]

I appears the odd notch in the op rod is the catch for the half moon safety lever. I saw nowhere else for the safety lever to push the rod back.

[@AttemptMade]

I didn’t know that the Lewis gun fg42 and m60 all used the main spring to power the firing pin. Would it be fair to say that the maxim silverman pistol is similar to them in the way that the the main spring is is also it’s firing pin spring?

[@gintonic5424]

Call Of Duty Vanguard: "I can battlepass you"

[@Andrew-kd1xz]

Sorry if this was mentioned. What size round would it fire. Was it the same as the Vickers-Berthier MG?

[@phillipsullivan3400]

Also, that spring loaded "cartridge grabber" on top of the bolt is begging to be jammed with dirt, preventing it from going into battery. This gun is a generous mix of good, or at least interesting, ideas and really, really bad ones.

[@Nate_the_Nobody]

Why was the original preference for box magazines to be loaded on the top or the side?

[@beaker126]

Hi Ian, do you have any information on what the magazine capacity may have been?

[@chrissinclair8705]

That little trough at the back of the stock is a little.....scary. God help the guy who was firing it when it broke.

[@Speedgovernor]

If I could time travel I probably would suggest to designers to turn receiver and gas system upside down and have a kind of BAR style bit more usable rifle

[@higorguedes4413]

Hey Ian, please do a video about Panzerfausts

[@VadarVadar]

Wouldn't it be possible to cnc machine or 3d print a mag for this weapon or for the chauchat Ian? I know it would possible break very soon but better than nothing or an $$$ expensive thing

[@PXCharon]

I wonder if that bolt head is numbered for headspacing, like an Enfield no4. Completely unrelated to it's serial number.

[@thewidgetmachine]

Using a century of hindsight. would it have been plausible to rotate this action 180 degrees? Giving it a bottom feed and clear space on top for central sights. I’m just interested to see if anyone with more mechanical/design knowledge would think this would be possible.

[@Tekdruid]

Ultimate hipster gun! "Yeah, you probably haven't heard of it, it was a pretty small production run back in the 1919's..." 8-)

[@a4channoob]

That op rod looks heavy. I imagine that would really mess up your aim every shot having it jump as much as it does. Might help with recoil tho

[@VegasCyclingFreak]

16:52 Longest op rod ever lol

[@2IDSGT]

Most metal, steampunk gun I’ve ever seen…

[@nemergix1707]

Damn this is a complex rifle !

[@riflemanm16a2]

How does the shooter reach the trigger while gripping the stock? The grip seems very far back and above the trigger.

[@TactaGhoul]

Not all weird guns are French, but all French guns are weird!