Managing the Freeze Response: Dissociation, Emotional Shutdown, and Creating Safety | Being Well

[@ForrestHanson]

We briefly mentioned harm reduction during the episode, and got some feedback from a community member about the goals of harm reduction work. I've paraphrased it below: I heard a fundamental misunderstanding of what harm reduction is as a concept, and it’s one that creates a lot of barriers in the work I and my colleagues engage in: that the goal of harm reduction is to decrease, and eventually cease, the practice of a particular activity (such as drinking or using drugs). This is in fact antithetical to harm reduction, which seeks to reduce the collateral damage from risky behavior rather than prescribing any path in regards to that activity itself. That’s the hook by which harm reduction is effective: meeting people where they’re at, refraining from judgment or prejudice, providing love and support without strings attached. It’s not don’t drive a car, it’s wear a seatbelt. It’s not don’t drink, it’s have water in between drinks. This isn't to to say that harm reduction opposes abstinence or sobriety, it simply sees that as options on a spectrum. Harm reduction is sometimes summarized as “any positive change." The way you all went on to apply the concept of harm reduction did stick the landing though. I agree that, for example, it’s a pretty wonderful approach to help us take maladaptive fight/flight/freeze/fawn approaches and nudge them towards something more adaptive. It’s a way to offer parts a different role, using IFS terminology, rather than the burden they’ve been assigned.

[@Haleh1]

Harm reduction sounds an awful lot like enabling.

[@georgiehughes4858]

This is extremely informative… I identify!

[@audreyreynolds4254]

@@Haleh1I think of it as enabling better outcomes by reducing potential harm. The words making up the term are harm reduction. So if someone chooses to drive, they can reduce potential harm by wearing a seatbelt, not drinking alcohol or using intoxicating drugs (recreational or prescribed), not driving tired, not texting, paying attention to the road, avoiding rush hour, keeping 2 hands on the wheel - all harm reduction techniques that may minimized the risks associated with the activity of driving. Keeping with this example of driving, the risk could come from the driver themselves or from another driver, animal or obstacle, or even the vehicle itself - a blow out often has less harmful impacts when the driver has 2 hands on the wheel, is going the speed limit and is paying attention so they react well to the vehicle jerking.

[@Tinyteacher1111]

Very interesting! I never heard of this! I will start to use it with my adult son. I’m spiritually trying to remain neutral when a trigger happens now, so I’ll try this. Thank you! Oh! I know many people who are good at quarreling, and having come from a chaotic childhood family, I get my feathers ruffled.

[@Jean-xo3hl]

Love this! As an addict, this make a lot more sense to me now... I always thought the goal was to eliminate the behavior. Which wouldn't be horrible. But I think I can work with being met where I currently am much better. Thank you.

[@user-js4sb4qq2h]

Oh my goodness... this is so important. How often do people come from abuse, learn to disassociate and continue in abusive relationships, jobs, workplaces, communities, houses, families and continue to disassociate through their entire life....

[@llkellenba]

Often - in my experience 🥶

[@flip1980ful]

😂 that would be me

[@cathycoppin5682]

I suffer from this

[@katejacobs5491]

❤

[@Taluta394]

🙋🏼‍♀️ me too

[@Heather_Michelle]

I spent a year in "functional freeze" state following a trauma experience...I was so unaware of what was happening to me, I saw multiple specialists because my blood pressure was so incredibly low I began passing out upon standing and got nothing but a chronic fatigue & fibro diagnosis...obtaining my trauma certified yoga teacher training is what helped me realize what was happening to me and break myself out of it.

[@mishalshahbaz7647]

I am suffering from the same exact issue. Whenever I go through freeze periods in life, my blood pressure gets consistently low and I faint/get dizzy/ etc. Could you share some things that helped you?

[@OmShantiManu]

How you did it you’re self? I am also a yoga teacher

[@AngelikaHighIn]

Hey how did you break that cycle

[@HawgsandDogsHardcoreHotdogs]

If "we" stay frozen for too long, or "lie there and play dead" for too long/stay frozen... we're in GREAT danger of becoming harmed if a scavenger comes along to clean up the pieces, after the predator that first threatened us has left the scene. So get up and get moving before you're in danger AGAIN. I hope this makes sense. I recently had this personal epiphany, so I hope it helps someone. I helps me when this positive thought comes back around. (I have the diagnosis of severe CPTSD and DID/fracturing). I don't know if anyone will see this this comment, but I hope so! Stay blessed. 🥰🙏

[@HawgsandDogsHardcoreHotdogs]

Btw... i meant "get moving" in terms of getting up and participating in life. Realize that you ARE alive. Don't hide. First, allow your body to move and be active...to do positive things that "it" wants to do. (From your subconscious positive urgings). Clean house, go out and buy one nice thing for yourself, or a treat. Go for a walk, do your dishes, call friends / family, make that appointment, bake some bread, do projects/hobbies,... woodworking, car repairs, painting, crafts, basketball,...etc.

[@rockon2503]

Comment seen and I'm grateful for it. I'm coming out of a decades long freeze. I played dead for way too long truly believing there was no other way to survive. Your visual of a scavenger coming along though really brings home the importance of the work I'm doing in therapy. I'm very visual & I can carry this with me. It will help a lot.

[@sophandcarlismom]

Thank you, very accurate.

[@happygucci5094]

This was awesome 👏🏽

[@JessAnonymous]

Way easier said than done. I've been studying about narc abuse and cptsd for YEARS and just discovered that the freeze response is literally almost automatic. Even if you WANT TO move, and are consciously aware enough to realize you ARE safe, the body is like, "nope!" And this heavy, weighed down feeling ensues. Consciously trying to deescalate the triggers is a challenge within itself

[@roc-88]

Lately, when I begin to feel upset, I acknowledge my feelings by saying, "I really want to dissociate right now. But can I sit with these feelings for a little while?" It's very unpleasant, but it gives me a moment to know what I'm feeling and why.

[@angelapitts2123]

This is so hard to do, for me 😢 I try

[@tersiadodo5990]

The scary part is not wanting to LIVE due to the FEAR!!! Praying has become my "go to" safe place 🙏

[@heatherinCT]

Hoe are you doing now?

[@bonnarlunda]

Oh, my... had to stop half-way to go lie down. I've seen the word "dissociation" in medical comments about me, but didn't know what it meant to the ones using it, and they never bothered to explain. But this description hits home. Slept for two hours from shutting down for realising how much I'm shutting down.

[@SSYOTX]

I'm so glad to read this because halfway through I feel like I'm needing a nap too.

[@manyBlessings2all]

Dear Bonnarlunda & Jhsrh .. thank you, grateful to be in good company.. me too, I often "conk out" & sleep when I'm not expecting to, tho I realise nowadays it's when I'm struggling to cope or even just to focus & or 'do' something that feels hard, or I feel numb, want comfort or at least distraction, breathing often shallow too, can be low oxygenation (I have an oximeter now) In my twenties I fainted on a rope swing once, too scared to say I was scared, so I 'went for it' & have no recollection of blacking out.. landed face down in shallow rocky water unconscious, luckily was picked up promptly, head injury concussion 7stitches, once home slept for 2 solid days! I've fallen asleep suddenly in mid stressful conversation, sitting in a car passenger seat, in day time, like 'cutting out', with no warning. Etc. Our brains are amazing what they can do in their efforts to 'protect' us! Love to you both & to us all, & healing for what we went through to cause such responses ❤🌷❤🌸❤

[@jennw6809]

getting suddenly sleepy is one of the main ways I dissociate. It used to always happen about 40 min into my therapy sessions with a supposed dissociation expert. She never saw it for what it was, I had to figure it out myself years later! All an infant can do to dissociate is to space out so this was probably my very first way of coping with abuse.

[@lynnefeldman1301]

Me too!!

[@SofDiane]

So it gets better? I’m in tears over my frozen body and they are talking about matrixes? Makes me feel dumber. Thank you @bonnarlunda for your optimistic comment

[@susanmercurio1060]

I was a fighter most of my life. My older sister is a fawner. Now I am freezing and I don't like it, but I'm trying to accept it and forgive myself and practice compassion (not always very successfully).

[@nickibanks5185]

I hear you & I was the same. I feel very disappointed with myself for not having that drive to stick up for myself or voice my needs anymore. Instead I avoid confrontation don't ask for help, which in turn makes for a hard & lonely road,that's a bit trippy at times when you feel detached from your sourounding like an alien. I found it I can treat myself like I'm the guardian looking after the little hurt me & acknowledge & validate my feelings & promise myself I'll look out for me because no one else is going to. Not like split personality...I don't think 🤔 just be patient & not force myself to be tougher & not weak. Separate myself as much as possible from the people & environment that is triggering as much as possible. Focus on just me , selfish it feels at first but you get past that. After few weeks my pre trauma personality started coming back out. Setting boundaries for my time to others & allowing more time with myself doing things I like to do without guilt etc. As soon as I let the toxic people slowly invade my time & influence my life ...even just a little bit...I was back to square one. Short story long....give yourself permission to validate your feelings & experience Without becoming victim mentality. just give yourself non critical counselling instead of criticism & dismissal & the assertive part of you will slowly emerge again. It doesn't take much for your hard work to regress with too much exposure to the problematic people/ environment

[@susanmercurio1060]

@@nickibanks5185 I'm 77 so I've learned most of your suggestions over the years. When my son was 13 (so in the early 1990s), I found myself yelling at myself in my head and I was shocked. I made myself stop every time I heard that and told myself that I had plenty of people around me (the social workers to whom I had turned for help with my problematical son) already doing that and I didn't need to join them: they were doing a pretty good job on their own. Sadly, I don't have a pre-trauma personality. My earliest memories are of my mother gaslighting me. However (no matter what psychologists say) I resisted inside myself so I do have a "non-trauma" identity. Also, in the late 1990s I decided that "my physical and mental health are my #1 priority," so I was more able to take care of myself without feeling guilty. Also, I have always been assertive. (I think that was the part of me that my mother disliked. At least she was never able to beat it out of me.) I haven't lost that. I do try to set up my life in such a way that I keep toxic people to a minimum. And keep stressors to a minimum. Right now I am taking your advice and giving myself permission to feel my feelings and to accept myself. It's working (at least sort of: it's a struggle). Thanks for your kind words.

[@inneralignmenteducation]

I saw a graphic that freezing is a deeper stress response than fighting and flighting. I’d love you both to explore that dynamic.

[@mgn1621]

Freeze is a dorsal vagal state…..the lowest of the low 😋 It’s a combo of fight and flee, so like one foot on the brake, and the other on the gas at the same time. It takes a lot of energy to be in the freeze state, or should I say, there is a lot of energy underneath a freeze state.

[@tinypixiekitten7806]

​@@mgn1621 - you're right. AND, it can be the gas and break on at the same time ("functional freeze") OR just the break on (often referred to as "freeze - shutdown".) For resources/ better explanation than me, check out Irene Lyon or Peter Levine.

[@chinmeysway]

unclear what deeper means in this context. to me it makes more sense that each persons way about stress response has its own specific depth regardless of some textbook or chart.

[@sallyh.6362]

I think that freeze feels most vulnerable because it often would be used when other responses either won’t work or you think they won’t, like the mouse. It’s literally the only option available to him and not a great one. Running and fighting feel pro active. They may not be effective, but you’re taking action, in a way that sends a mssg of some kind to others. Where as in freeze your totally vulnerable with your only hope being to being to hide your feelings and become as insignificant as possible, to become invisible. You are sort of betraying yourself because you are doing nothing, communicating nothing. Just taking it.

[@halliebirds]

OMG @ these brake/gas comments! I’ve been telling my therapist that it feels like I’m in my car, and my car is on and it works great, but when I press on the gas (and boy DO I) the car is still in park, and even if it wasn’t, well there’s a massive concrete wall right in front of my car so the car wouldn’t get very far before totaling itself anyway 🤡😅 love it here.

[@solarahspeaks]

Your love, respect and admiration for each other is so beautiful. Thank you for your professional wisdom, but also thank you for sharing your precious father son bond with the world 🙏🏾✨

[@aritalkstech]

Just the fact that you and your dad make this content together is so healing to me on top of the empathetic teaching. ❤

[@blue-uv4mh]

Yeeeess something about Dissociation! 😊🎉 I swear nobody talks about this ever

[@earthpearl3790]

Channels, like Kim Sage’s and others that focus on cPTSD have videos on dissociation, depersonalization and de realization

[@blue-uv4mh]

@@earthpearl3790 Thank you I know, I searched far and wide on the internet… While watching I realized that just like these videos, this is more about normal dissociation or dissociation that accompanies other disorders, not dissociative disorders themselves. The problem with dissociative disorders is that you never even get the chance to get out of the freeze response. This sadly means that almost all of those tips become meaningless because you never have much control, you could be gone days on end and not notice… Dissociative disorders are even so less talked about, that the DSM V only lists 3 disorders in a waaay to generalized way. The ICD11 does a better job at this, listing 9 categories of dissociative disorders plus 19 specified dissociative disorders (if I counted right) that lie under the umbrella of three of them, but even in the EU, finding someone who knows how to treat dissociative disorders is really hard, even though every therapists knows the basics of dissociation. There are just so few resources…

[@blue-uv4mh]

@@earthpearl3790 But I‘m still grateful for every video on the topic of dissociation, don‘t get me wrong :)

[@Charity-vm4bt]

​@@blue-uv4mhThere is tons of information available on the NICABM website. Bessel Van Der Kolk has an on-line educational conference coming up in May. There are now many therapists dealing with this. It is advisable to start somewhere. There is not one answer but many pieces to put together to put together your own healing process.

[@mgn1621]

Peter Levine, Bessel ven der Kolk.

[@marydaniel2142]

This is my first Being Well podcast, though I've followed Dr. Hanson's work for more than a decade. You, Forrest, have other-worldly instincts, intelligence, and compassions. As a podcast choreographer, moderator, and participant, you are second-to-none. And of course your dad speaks volumes with every nuanced and thoughtfully-crafted sentence. He possesses such a deep well of knowledge. Yowsa! And as for the topic? For me, it couldn't be more timely. Thank you.

[@ACraig-og8tn]

❤

[@deborah3709]

Yes to the idea of a whole episode on safety.

[@teacup2302]

Thank you so much for this video. I’ve been navigating these turbulent waters for going on 7 decades. I know it gets easier as the coping strategies of dissociating become more self-apparent especially now that I have more time for introspection, but your valuable insight and your graceful expression of it makes a world of difference. You are both gentle giants and perfectly model the path to mental health. Bless you.

[@Charity-vm4bt]

Teacup Beautifully expressed!

[@celestehogan5907]

Yes me too. I’m not alone.

[@revolutionary_evolution]

Omg... You guys just saved my life. No joke. I'm shaking all over, because it's all true. So many years in therapy. So many different types of therapy, and BOOM. I knew I freeze, and I've been dissecting it as best I can, because I've had to administer "self-therapy", and in under 1.5 hours, we've nailed it. Thank you. THANK YOU! Thank you so much for sharing your gifts with us. ❤ I cannot thank you enough. Good job fellas. You're work is saving lives. I promise you, I am one of them.❤ Bravo 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@sharonvanboven7542]

I want to thank you both from the deepest part of my heart for sharing your much needed wisdom. I also want to thank you both for your love and compassion which was palpable! Your work is amazing and healing. I am eternally grateful!💓💓

[@skybabe1959]

I don't know what to say. I'm 64, this has just been life changing. I won't say much because I'm frozen. I feel Hope, thank you so much. I've never seen family members interact like this, it's absolutely beautiful...I hope you both know that. I have just subscribed!

[@anastasiyapolyevyk9510]

"For some people living is an unconditioned stimulus, with with which they associate the electric shock, even when they are not shocked at the moment" 😢 wow that is exactly me in my life

[@lindaelarde2692]

I love the lens Forrest used to discuss "fawning". It's my primary response but I've always seen it described like "appeasement"...in a negative frame. Flexible lenses are helpful for me. In some contexts fawning is pro-social while in other context, I may be avoiding asserting boundaries or conflict aversion.

[@mgn1621]

I have been working with a somatic/trauma therapist on my freeze responses. One thing I still have difficulty with is; when a situation occurs where I feel uncomfortable (for lack of a better description because I don’t know what emotion I am feeling at the time); and its only later, say the next day, when I have had a chance to regulate myself and get in touch with what bothered me. I get frustrated because what I want to eventually get to is being able to say in the moment of the uncomfortable situation that no, this doesn’t feel right to me and work through it then and there with the other person(s).

[@hshfyugaewfjkKS]

That's okay, be kind to yourself. That will come over time and exposure with a sense of safety as you do it. While you build your window of tolerance to be with the discomfort that will become easier because your executive functioning will stay online since you are not in a state of non safety Intrigued by a trauma response.

[@insertmyidentityhere]

You sound very self-absorbed. Do you have a job? People that work don’t have time to sit around ruminating.

[@annetteka]

⁠@@insertmyidentityhereyour comment (NB there’s a crucial difference between drawing conclusion onto the character and personality judgementally, and responding to the message foremost) comes across passive aggressive. You might be stood up and ever so busy (I hold two jobs and still am in an, arguably overactive, self awareness dialogue alongside it all) yet seem to have time enough for someone else’s shortcomings. Is your reality that empowering , I wonder, or are the triggers difference and feeling unseen. I can relate to that!

[@susandelaney858]

Baby steps. I've experienced, with practice, the time between the stimulus and this delayed response, does gradually get shorter.

[@phoenix9889]

thank you so much for this video. I've lived in the freeze response for the majority of my life and watching this enabled to me apply for a job at my dream workplace right afterwards!

[@tnt01]

You can do it.👍

[@manyBlessings2all]

@phoenix9889 ~ wow that's great this video helped you so much ~ Bravo! And very best of luck & joyful manifestation of your dream job.. please let us know how it goes ~ & if for any strange reason not this job then surely you are on the way to an even better more wonderful adventure.. I keep being told *Life happens FOR us, nOt to us* which does feel more empowering. Love to you 🎉❤

[@jeannined7532]

Your dscussion of safety really touched something deep in me. As a biological creature I have been strangely comforted by realizing my own human frailty and vulnerability. The earth plane simply cannot provide a sense of ultimate safety. I've noticed that almost everyone has some degree of traumatic experience just from being alive. As a person who has struggled with CPTSD all my life (I'm 72) I have grown and healed by leaps and bounds through counseling and the practice of prayer and meditation. I've had startling insights about the true nature of safesty, which is simply this felt realization that no matter what happens to me in this phenomenal world, I am sustained by a Presence I can't see, but is so thoroughly "for me". I agree that developing agency, positive self talk, asking for help and taking small steps in carrying out new possibilities that are more life giving are key skills that I can learn, but I have to say, that the power to do this is an inner empowerment that comes from Love. My life changed dramatically the day that I realized I don't have to hold myself together because I'm already being held together by this Love.

[@Charity-vm4bt]

Jeannine, excellent! Thank you.

[@kimlec3592]

How many are alone? Or in a family but feel alone or distressed by others in the family? Freeze response makes sense when you feel there is no relief from constant emotional distress. Emotional comfort is rare for some of us.

[@gladlifechanges]

Thank you! I so relate. Working on integrating the loving presence into daily life. ❤

[@celestehogan5907]

Well said. I agree totally. Thnx. We are blessed to have these 2 men to explain without the You shoulds!!!!

[@narotsonana]

I fell upon this discussion because I have been freezing and couldn't understand what within my environment was causing it. Tears are streaming down my cheeks as soon as you started discussing safety issues and cortisol. Something just clicked. Thank you.

[@manyBlessings2all]

@narotsonana ~much love to you 🎉❤

[@AS-kf1ol]

So interesting how just employing an inappropriate strategy for the situation or employing it for too long can make it maladaptive. Like fawning at work when you really should be fleeing a toxic environment. Never thought about it like that.

[@advocate1563]

Disassociation is a weird state. You are an observer of your own existence (can't be called living) and therefore nothing "hurts" you.

[@chinmeysway]

don’t we all end up doing it to some amount though? i mean it’s similar to desensitization perhaps, which i’m not. wish i could be more actually. i’m so sensitive to violence, can’t watch many movies all the way through, trees and old buildings being cut down around me, can’t look up much or walk just anywhere. some amount of disassociation would be helpful for ppl who feel “too much.” but i see what you mean. but the weird state will be different for everyone and how it’s utilized i assume.

[@lynnefeldman1301]

I dissociated all the time even when in court representing clients. And I always did really well when in that state. But once I found this wasn’t “normal”, I stopped doing it at all.

[@AngelikaHighIn]

@@lynnefeldman1301how did you remove this state.

[@Pajet.Yesway]

You have such a beautiful dynamic with your dad. So much love there and it’s wonderful to witness. Also quite important topics to explore. This was the first time I stumbled on your content, and I happily subscribed. Sending y’all good vibes ☀️

[@dmt7674]

Always froze during conflict or when anyone raised their tone, caused a lot of issues between my boyfriend and I because I would be stuck in trying to descalate by apologizing and appeasing instead of coming into my body. podcast is very helpful, thank you!

[@mirelladlima5278]

Like Father like son. Dr. Forest has taken very well after his dad Dr Rick Hanson. Congratulations Forest you have been able to forge your own path and yet be so humble to acknowledge the depth of knowledge your dad has gained due to his experience in the field over the years 🙏

[@christinaward161]

I love how you and your dad both bounce off each other. You really break things down in a simplistic form that makes it easier to both understand and relate. We could all do with a chat with a therapist like you. Having watched a few of your videos now, i am beginning to learn so much about myself,and for this i thank you both.

[@Charity-vm4bt]

Christina, I echo your thoughts!

[@CLK7378]

Adaptive means we don't have a say in how our nervous system responds. Children especially don't "think" about running away or fighting or freezing or fawning. It's reactive, not conscious. They are biologically wired responses. It's not a cognitive choice. It's very complex. It's not until adulthood we can see how our childhood adaptive responses can be maladaptive. That's when our thinking really comes into play because we can pay attention to how we can help ourselves to use these wired safety mechanisms to help ourselves be effective. These aren't "bad" adaptations.

[@mgn1621]

They helped us survive……be kind and gentle with ourselves

[@celestehogan5907]

Yes wonderful to know … perfectly fine to how we’ve tried to cope and get thru life … school , home, careers and marriage, and friendships, even God and the Church!!!

[@yamlwoz]

Can't believe I haven't come across this channel before. What an amazing pair you are! This topic was huge for me and I'm about to play it through again. Such valuable information, thank you, from the bottom of my oft-frozen heart ❤

[@katzygolf]

What a wonderfully informative video of the freeze response, which has been ignored, in my view, forever. I suffer still at age 75 & still trying to overcome so I am comfortable in my own skin. This was excellent. Thank you.

[@ruthmariesub]

A few minutes in and I had to comment! Watching you and your dad communicate is heart warming and healing! I wish I had a dad like yours! ❤

[@Cassie-pt7mt]

For anyone who has cptsd, check out Tim Fletcher's Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn.

[@amanullahkariapper2503]

As I was saying to some friends, apart from your wisdom and empathy, you also model an amazing father-son dynamic.

[@LivDeSantos]

Amazing episode! I only realised recently that I've been emotionally shutting down in the face of stress and instability. I can't wait for the episode on feeling safe in yourself 🙏🏿

[@kaoutar6921]

Hi there hope you're doing better .did they drop the safety episode or not yet

[@Finne57]

That was pretty moving - when Rick I think said - for some people it's living, that is the US.

[@Idkaboutyoubutimfeelin22]

Recently got out of an abusive relationship and its interesting to look at the dynamics of those conflicts through the stress response/attachment style lense. Its kind of mindblowing to realize that i allowed him to dominate me through the aggression because of the way i grew up thinking i was powerless to make a change or to stand up for myself. Speaking up for myself never even occurred to me as an option, i just made myself smaller and smaller in order to survive. He would often berate me so suddenly and id enter that freeze response which further triggered his preoccupied attachment/anxiety when he felt me withdraw. If i cried or withdrew, he went into attack mode and escalated, which only sent me further into a spiral, and id go from freeze to appease because the freeze wasnt working and he would get in my space and scream at me. Id end up apologizing just for crying because i was so terrified and now i wonder what i was so afraid of. I was such a mess i couldnt even speak up for myself to even voice my feelings or opinions because I knew he would speak over me or cut me off because in those moments he was so caught up in his own feelings of anxiety /fear/rage he was unable to have empathy for a perspective outside his own. I wonder if i knew this then if i could have asked for space and if that would have helped his own anxiety and if i could have changed the outcome, because i never knew that i had the power to even try.

[@dashaaxelsson9636]

This channel needs more exposure, it's so good

[@marylovberg5448]

The most fundamental issue for me in overcoming this response and the key to my falling into the freeze and avoidance response is my underlying suspicion, whether innate or acquired, that I am “less than.” I am “more defective than”. I am “more culpable” than anyone with whom I am engaging. From wherever the origin of this ingrained feeling arose and is ingrained in my self concept, this is the crux for me of evolving out the freeze avoidance response.

[@ebbyc1817]

Thank you for framing it more as a personality type. Much easier to digest the information when one isn't actively beating oneself up for it.

[@ForrestHanson]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Charity-vm4bt]

​@ForrestHanson I echo the positive responses to your informative teaching. The theories are so clearly explained and shows how this adaptive response is merely behaviorial. A 30 pound child has few defenses against a 200 pound predator. Especially before the child has developed a pre-frontal cortex. Thank you both so much. What fantastic role models you are for a son raised in good health to be able to bring the profound influence of the dad's teaching forward into the present consciousness Awakening into spiritual maturity of present generations.

[@teacup2302]

@@Charity-vm4btBeautifully expressed, Charity. It appears you have a profound insight into the origin of this behavior, too. Thank you.

[@celestehogan5907]

You got it!!!!!

[@marylovberg5448]

This is so incredibly helpful for me presently. Loved your acceptance of working at self therapy especially as, for many of us, therapy with a professional is not possible financially. Also want to say, you two together, bouncing your knowledge and insights off each other offers so much information. Wonderful! Thank you.

[@clarkl4177]

@49:48 "Wonderful!" Indeed, WHAT we tell ourselves about what's happening makes all the difference. We are told to"Consider it all joy when you face trials" It's at THAT POINT that we can see solutions, grow in perseverance, and discover joy. Thanks for having these "edu-versations" 👍

[@peacefulisland67]

Thank you for this!! From my side, I have to really watch if my reactions are coming from codependency. It's a fine line between smoothing things over and controlling because I'm uncomfortable. 🙏 While listening to this I hear me in the details and that can be reassuring, also, I feel myself habitually wandering mentally because it's a little triggering. Years ago when I was describing my dissociative symptoms to rehab staff, she suggested I was having a "white-out". TMI all at once. My vision gets blurry, ears ring, can't talk, can't form a thought other than "bad" or "not good". Still happens and had a really rough time with an inexperienced therapist last year that while it set me back, it also made me angry and lit an internal fire to change therapists. Progress. Plus I have an AWESOME circle of friends working on similar issues. Blessed, and blessings to you both again.

[@katiehealer8861]

This is so good. Seeing these responses as "not bad" i beliwve will help me to change them as necessary instead of getting stuck and being rigid. I've always been a fighter and dissacociated. Get flooded with emotions. Looking at my go to responses. I've experienced so much violence in childhood and tgen went on in adulthood to replicate imthe pattern in jobs & relationships. I feel like crying listening to this realizing there is now HOPE! ❤

[@jennebeattie3168]

I lot my 14 year old son, Branson. I keep getting stuck in freeze response. I just shut down completely and cut myself off. Death can't be fixed. Can't wait to hear what the two of you have to say. My normal nature is to fight. But in grief, I crumble and freeze. THANK YOU ❤

[@pnwadventures2955]

at 9:20 I was just as mind blown as your Dad, Forrest. Wow - the fawning response has so many good aspects - of course it does! This makes so much sense, thank you

[@TheJackster2000]

This was so helpful for me. I’m dealing with CPTSD and is very difficult right now. Thank you for your podcast. You guys are awesome!❤

[@goldenparachute392]

This was so phenomenal. Not just the information that was conveyed but how it what conveyed. I also want to mention that I thought that you and your father have such a lovely relationship. Your dad is truly a role model for fathers.

[@MariahMonique]

This is gonna be a slow one for me to get through but probably the video I need the most. I had to stop the first time i tried watching because i shut down from the topic but I’m more mentally prepared for it now. Thank you for these videos ❤

[@cz964]

Forrest summarizing all the key points at the end of as I think I zoned out at some point ❤

[@kriskelley3562]

This was really helpful to me. Thank you for this podcast.

[@mirelladlima5278]

People who have experienced trauma often do not have “presence of mind” they are physically present but mentally absent. The mind freezes and you have to literally bring them into the present moment by asking them to “focus” or pay attention to the task in hand for example the teacher might try to draw the students attention to the lecture that is being given.🙏

[@celestehogan5907]

The comments are as amazing as the talk itself!!!! What an amazing learned audience of freeeze peers!!!

[@bell10877]

Wow, the question about ' what is the threat' is really fascinating! That could be a whole episode! Thank you

[@Musecollective]

Wow. The first few minutes in gave me SO much self insight! Thank you both!

[@annabelle_michelle]

Thank you for this topic. Makes so much sense. As an avoidant neurodivergent this was helpful. Also, I love the energy of you two together!

[@celestehogan5907]

Thanx! Usually don’t respond in the trauma ones. wanna say .. great aid for those of us who couldn’t find or couldn’t afford correct therapist for decades who would understand this to a Tee like you guys are explaining. I learned on my own …thru decades 12 steps meetings. Thru faith counseling , CBT and my own studies and writings!!!now verified as your words fit right into my brain & soul. Bless you both ✨👍🏻

[@mistydmaddera]

THANK YOU! This was my first episode and I'm hooked. I learned many new things that i know will help me recover from narcissistic abuse.

[@celestehogan5907]

Yes it will help!

[@sophialott1314]

Exactly what I'm going through as im listening to this podcast! 🙏

[@empea3837]

Praying for you and with you 🌸.

[@erinhappy-go-lucky5040]

Thank you for making this video 😊🥰! I have needed guidance and associative language in this area for a long time. I am trying to overcome this for a majority of my life. Please make more videos on this topic 🌈!!!

[@candaceheidenrich6278]

There is a broad spectrum of unsafe situations from mild to very extreme (e.g. violence, war, abuse, rape, molestation). My takeaways…..Safety seems to often begin with recognizing unsafe situations, people, and things….Mobilizing often happens when you feel a sense of agency and determine what is really happening and what you can do about it…..Sustaining a sense of safety….”ground oneself as strong”….determination, efficacy, seek support from others….However, it is critically important to recognize there are people who cannot remove themselves (children as the most vulnerable, but also people in war zones, those facing famine, disasters, and many other extreme circumstances).

[@disappearingremedy7400]

This is very useful and supportive. Thank you!

[@sherrilawrence662]

This is the first time I can't listen to the whole episode 😢I am completely out of strength physically mentally emotionally drained after years and years of isolation and trying to heal myself ( lack of any medical mental health family or friends at this point in Canada. I am grateful for all the knowledge thanks to wonderful people like you and your dad( read all his books when I could still read) 🙏 ❤️ get thru another day and keep trying i suppose...

[@ResearchBasedLanguageTeaching]

Im really looking forward to the followup episode you started to get into with the final question about how to develop the feeling that you are your own source of safety WHEN you are stuck in freeze responses. I would also really love for you to go deeper on how to deal with freeze responses when you are going into stress responses just from being alive and being triggered by situations that are objectively safe and good. Thank you for another amazing episode

[@starboard6372]

Brilliantly helpful. Thank you so much.

[@orientalshorthaircats]

I'm a 44 yo woman and I'm a freezer, I come from a childhood abuse with barely any support system and I guess all the symptoms that you mention apply to me, including the lack of self-efficacy. what I found surprising is your recommendation to do martial arts and climbing. I devoted about 4 years to the former in my youth, it was some fun and I wanted to learn to be able to protect myself, but I sucked at it and going to each training was a struggle and finally I left with a feeling of being more of a failure and understanding I won't be able to protect myself if somebody would really want to hurt me. and it took only one attempt at rock climbing to make me feel like a complete looser. it was especially hurtful to my self-efficacy because I previously tried a lot of sports as a child and I was good at everything except I hated long-distance running and was a bit scared of skiing, but I was still could do them no worse than average. I don't know if there's any correlation between my being a freezer and sucking at those particular activities, maybe I should add that I'm also on the spectrum and bipolar (but my adjustment level is such that I barely seem somewhat odd or off to strangers). but having experienced those activities myself I can only think of how hard they are for a person like me and I can't really imagine how they can help even theoretically, I can't imagine where I could take resources for this struggle to overcome myself. (I can imagine how they can be good for a person without such issues). it sounds like you're recommending running marathons to a person who barely walks.

[@kimgo6174]

My mother was a narcissist, and my father had a fair degree of free-flowing rage, so I would freeze. I was an oops, baby. I could sometimes fawn; I could not relate at all to the fight response until I had done a LOT of therapy and work on myself and was in a safe and loving relationship where my partner was proficient at communication. This is beneficial information. Thank you so much.

[@Sparkle835]

This discussion is actually helping me to learn coping skills. I'm in a 40 year marriage. At this point, he doesn't just finish my sentences, he often takes over and dictates the outcome of MY story or experience as HE imagines it. He gets irritable and impatient with me when I speak until I eventually lose my train of thought completely. I can rarely, if ever, fully develop a train of thought before he derails it. At this point in our long 45 year relationship, I'm looking to distance myself from him by mostly listening and getting quieter. I want and need peace and calm.

[@librapainter7174]

Leave

[@Sparkle835]

@librapainter7174 I would if the benefits of staying didn't outweigh the benefits of leaving. ⚖️

[@kristenmerrill-nl2dh]

I have dissociative disorder NOS and your helpful tips are spot on and unique! Never experienced any of these most effective tools in therapy. Taking many notes and will rewatch! Thank you!

[@halliebirds]

UGH I love this conversation around adaptive vs maladaptive. I struggled w perfectionism for a really long time and I read a book called The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control and the author didn’t bash perfectionism at all, she just laid it out in all its forms and broke down each “type” into adaptive and maladaptive expressions. I’m still a perfectionist and learning to love and work with it instead of against it has increased my self-esteem tenfold.

[@michelledarkentell7536]

Thank you so much for this episode. It gave me so much more insight into myself.

[@tumblingrosesstudio]

So today was the day I realized I was in a long term freeze response to my family situation and losing my job this winter. And it's been a pattern all my life- today I got answers for so many mysteries: a) why my parents had me tested for hearing loss when I was little, because they would talk to me and call me and I was not there b) why I would go to dance class then have to lock myself in the bathroom to zone away again after class c) why I was catatonic for days and then confused and disassociated for months/hospitalized when I was in my 20's d) why I struggle with depression and e) why I have not been able to find my grit and determination to get my life on track since I lost my job. THESE ARE ALL THE SAME THING- a freeze/collapse response to trauma. Now I know what to do- thank you!

[@ReneeBanchiere]

I deeply appreciate this conversation and in particular the suggestions for alternative responses. I intend to practice feeling safe inside myself with myself.

[@Keepitkind7]

Great video. A therapist asked me "What age do you revert to (feel like) when you fight vs. freeze, etc." She said my differing response depended on what age the triggers fell back on (ie. Current triggers recalling teen years leads to fight or flight...because I could at the time, and since a child has little agency, it leads to freeze or fawn) That was a theory anyway as to why my responses may differ. But I get the adaptive thing. Makes sense. Freeze (dissociation or inertness) for me feels the safest-less consequences.

[@madgepickles]

this was one of the most valuable videos I've ever watched

[@realestaterelief]

Completely blessed to have such a super strong self aware role model. It’s worth years of unfilled potential and living with stored trauma in exchange with a few kind words and the toolkit for structuring a balanced life 🙏🏼❤️😊thank you for setting and example and answering a deep struggle of mine with communication gaps with select people.

[@awright1676]

On my path towards recovery c-ptsd and have been in a state of functional freeze for several years. I appreciate your content. Professional help, logically, is what i need to move forward and have been working towards making the call to initiate services. This literally feels like a wall. I especially am aware of how much I can't feel and what you guys said, the real threat at the bottom of the barrel, i am in total avoidance of. There is rage. I do not know what it feels like to feel angry. I have three times in my life had an explosion of rage that was like the white light of an atom bomb just exploding up and through me in such a shocking and loud noise. I think the closest i feel towards anger is when my teenage daughter starts pushing my buttons and it feels like bees under my skin. It requires every bit of my mental focus to stay present and stay with the conversation to not check out. I find my body goes through the various states - and I'm capable to push through them, like I'm freezing, and I'll stand up or start moving in some way, then I'll start fighting and i can hear it or see the reflection in my daughters face and ican stop, and then I'll fine myself leaving and walking abruptly away to do the dishes and be like wait no, go back - fawning- giving in to her - let me tell you it is such a challenge and i am better now than i have been a far as being able to cycle through and or just Ideally stay in a state of composure even in a stressful conversation. She is 17 now and i can explain to her more easily along with an apology that i struggle with high stress conversations but that i am trying to stick with it and it might look like like all these different stages but for her to know that i am battling myself and trying to keep my brain online not freeze, not fight, not flee, not fawn... i tell her that i might need breaks in a conversation if it is too heated. I'm so glad she's a little older in order to understand this and not take it personally or as an excuse not to have an important discussion. I struggle so hard with all of this and your content helps me with more framework and more potential to save myself. I gotta get in to get some professional help so i can move forward in my own life. Thank you guys. Sorry this is all practically incoherent, listening and thinking through different parts of my life is triggering and I'm to have to come back and listen again so i can hear more of it when my nervous system calms back down. For anyone reading this and in the same state - it has been incredibly helpful for me to learn EFT tapping. 5 minutes tapping will bring me back to my body and bring me back to my thinking brain and relieves the anxiety and physical headache - highly recommend

[@CreativeArtandEnergy]

Ooooh. I had a really long shut down this semester at 40. I'm glad you are talking about this today, marvelous. Confession: in freeze my parents yell at me for getting angry. Both of them wanted to kick me out without a space, because something is wrong with them accepting chronic PTSD.

[@DaylightMoon28]

Whoa… this explains so much of how I get. And it’s sadly true that I don’t see myself as someone capable of things due to experiences. I’m eternally thankful for you ❤

[@anastasiyapolyevyk9510]

Thank you for conclusion in the end

[@TheTechMargin]

Thanks for covering this topic ❤

[@susanstancliff2937]

Thank you! What a wonderful Father and son discussion. I could never understand why I froze certain times and fight other times. Listening to this helps me understand that it depends on the situation you are in. I think I fight when I know I have to and freeze and feel removed from a situation when I feel I don’t have the energy to fight. I’m 76. Maybe I just try to stay away from stressful situations now that I’m older. Stress comes anyway but I try to think about a solution and act slower on it. This is good to study up on. Thank you so much. It’s nice to know we are not alone in this, but that there are others who have gone through trauma and find out through education they can help themselves! Thank you.

[@AclariusLighthouse-il2ji]

This has been an incredible watch. Thank you both. 🙏

[@kingofdubb2133]

The freeze response that Dr Rick was talking about around 23 mins in, I think applies to me - my dad passed away midway through my mum's pregnancy with me, resulting, understandably in a lot of stress & depression. I was told later in life, that I was a good baby because I never cried - my mum left me in my pram outside a shop for several hours (she had forgotten about me) when she returned she said I was "happily" sleeping

[@bernardblack6270]

Starting to suspect similar things about my early childhood. I’m told I was sleeping 16+ hours per day at two weeks old and wouldn’t cry when I woke up so my mom wouldn’t realize I was awake. Now I’m diagnosed with narcolepsy and wondering if it’s really just my cPTSD 🤦‍♀️.

[@luckyduckydaisyflower2344]

😢

[@valdouglas8804]

Have had big problem with this so thanks for explaining it in such a way that's not shaming .

[@revdmargievisser296]

Such a brilliant episode. Thank you for your insights. You're both gifts to humanity.

[@privateperson4842]

I especially liked having the 'what did you mean by..' line in your options of responses. And having yourself as a source as safety💜

[@surayapandor1590]

This was so helpful. From the bottom of my heart thank you.

[@judittabendavidtraumaresil7641]

Thank you! Inspiring and filled with gems. Self Efficacy is so substantial in the healing, it can take quite a while to nurture cultivate and integrate as yours. Patience and consistency are needed as well as compassion, and a lot of times just that one that has trust in your progress .

[@samme1024]

Thank you so much! This is the most comprehensive talk on FREEZE that I've heard. I'm on the healing path from a lifetime of freeze responses and this has been so very helpful. ❤❤❤❤❤

[@evelincosta1449]

Great Show! I hope that this becomes a series on Flight, Freeze, Fawn! I know that my coping mechanism is Flight, and I’d love to dive deeper into it. ❤

[@liezacarroll8018]

Thank you! This is one of the most informative and healing videos I’ve ever seen.

[@didirogakos8855]

Wow..Forrest's case study description was so relatable! Just hearing it articulated so clearly is therapeutic! I think there's a consensus that there needs to be a Part 2 about the freeze response :) Would sooo appreciate more on this. Thank you!

[@christenedoering7720]

My son was made to feel like a freakk when he froze at school noone understood it cared to understand im glad this us a real thing because noone had ever encountered it .

[@Siara259]

22:14 this is so on point, thats exactly how I feel!

[@danathomas7870]

I want to mention something that a lot of people might not think of when it comes to this subject, It's my contintion that a fairly high number of Homeless people fit. this coping strategy. I always feel safer when I am traveling in my van . When I am in my home, I have trouble leaving my house and I can't handle anyone knocking on my door. For me, being on the move feels safe because no person can find me. And if I can change my location it makes me feel safe. This is how I handle my freeze response. I own two homes in different states so I can hide if I need to. But I prefer to live in my camper. I feel like the I feel like homeless population are hiding in plan sight ...

[@A.new.begining1224]

I had an EMDR trauma therapist tell me "It's hard to hit a moving target". I resonate a lot with what you wrote, my whole Life I've been running from people, places, things, situations that were unsafe towards Safety. I haven't stopped running, though, through active self healing I have slowed down my pace considerably. I remind myself of just how much I have made it through, and that I have been very capable at protecting myself. I am learning I am safe with myself. Anyway, aside from a freeze response, journeying in your van is just a rad experience. I miss that life a lot. Much Love Kathleen

[@danathomas7870]

@@A.new.begining1224 I bought a house, in a state where I don’t know anyone…. This makes me feel better, but people still stop by unannounced…. Which triggers me…. We are safe…. It’s the trauma of childhood where we weren’t safe that is playing in our head…. Need to try to remind ourselves that we are not our parents…. We can leave, we can say no, we can say no “ I don’t like this “. And leave….. It’s because we were hostages that we freeze. We can cope with stress because we trust our instincts we have superior instincts. We know instinctually when a person isn’t safe. We get a sense of them and all we need to do is leave. This is a story that I was told by a therapist long time ago, you may have heard it . I walked down a street there was a big hole , I fell in the hole…. It took me two days to get out I walked down the street. There was a big hole, I fell in the hole…… but it only took me one day to get out. I walked down the street there was a hole , I fell in the hole this time I was out within the hour. I walked down the street I saw the hole , I went around the hole. The next day I went down a different street . This is the process of learning about unsafe people. Yes you will fall in that same old time and time again and one day you’ll wake up and you’ll say you’re a hole. I’m not going down your street and you’ll walk away.

[@A.new.begining1224]

@@danathomas7870 I have heard that analogy when I when through a program for woman leaving domestic abuse. Im at a place where I can look back at my experiences and find the value in all of it. Today I am strong, resilient, and have a psychological fortitude through the wazoo. Id rather be by myself then compromise myself for anyone not adding to my world somehow.

[@desirelovell]

Thank you for putting this out here and I wish I grew up in your family household because I admire the way y’all can communicate. I definitely didn’t experience that growning up.

[@noahbrown4388]

I’ve been rewatching all of the Dr Katz show from the 90’s lately, I forgot how much I love it! You two kind of remind me of it.. in a good way :)