Dr. Martin Gibala: The Science of Vigorous Exercise - From VO2 Max to Time Efficiency of HIIT

[@FoundMyFitness]

Get the show notes and transcript www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/martin-gibala 00:00:00 - In this episode 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:03:22 - What is high-intensity training? 00:04:15 - Zone 2 vs. HIIT for VO2 max - which is better? 00:05:44 - The vital role of vigorous exercise 00:07:02 - Why VO2 max matters for longevity 00:10:07 - Why athletes vs. exercisers benefit from different intensity distributions 00:14:31 - Measuring maximum heart rate and VO2 max 00:22:53 - How the heart adapts to HIIT to increase VO2 max 00:28:09 - Why vigorous exercise accelerates mitochondrial adaptation 00:32:28 - Enhancing fat oxidation and mitochondrial growth with vigorous exercise 00:36:44 - How intensive exercise boosts fat breakdown 00:38:18 - Is high-intensity exercise better for autophagy than fasting? 00:47:36 - Exercise snacks 00:50:15 - Why 'choosing the stairs' reduces early death (VILPA study) 00:53:01 - Protocol for VO2 max 00:58:12 - The effect of HIIT on muscle fiber types 01:02:40 - How aging effects muscle fibers 01:06:31 - Does high-intensity training produce an “afterburn effect?" 01:08:35 - Why vigorous workouts are better for BDNF and cognition 01:15:37 - Anti-metastatic cancer effects 01:42:45 - Wingate training vs. reHIIT - a comparison of protocols 01:48:00 - Perceived exertion vs. HRmax 01:51:45 - Interval walking for people with type 2 diabetes 01:53:28 - Are there contradictions for HIIT? 01:57:28 - Why preconditioning reduces risks from exercise 02:03:06 - Can resistance training be a type of aerobic exercise? 02:08:46 - Does cardio and strength training interfere with each other? 02:11:07 - How many minutes per week of high-intensity training? 02:19:20 - Are there sex differences in high-intensity training? 02:19:20 - Misconceptions on high-intensity interval training for women 02:20:04 - Should post-menopausal women do H.I.I.T.? 02:20:09 - Does intense exercise raise cortisol? 02:26:23 - Bone density and osteoarthritis 02:29:02 - Atrial fibrillation risk 02:31:35 - Hypoxic training and blood flow restriction 02:33:07 - Tips for training with joint issues

[@lpass1]

what is the definition of extreme exercise? Is it the amount of time? Amount of effort?

[@gstlynx]

Thanks to Dr. Gibala and Dr. Patrick for a densely packed useful conversation.

[@inthedougout301]

This was outstanding and unexpectedly reassuring. I have had more knee injuries than I would like; it was not only reassuring to hear that I can still pursue HIIT, but I was able to hear it from an expert who has learned to navigate those issues. It is -not- easy.

[@latifa1020]

Thanks Dr Rhonda...been following you for years and your work is invaluable...

[@inthedougout301]

Agree, her content is outstanding!

[@praisethelord4222]

After 30 years of bodybuilding (naturally), I will tell you that once I found Mike Mentzers style of training (HIIT), it was a game changer. For 28 of those years I worked out 5x per week for hours on end. Once I followed the Mentzer HIIT, I was working out 2x per week for 20 minutes and the results have been incredible. At 45 years old, I’m not turning back to 5x per week for hours on end. HIIT is the way to go. I’ve seen more improvements than ever before.

[@PolkaRoo]

You will turn back when your joints burn out on you

[@SioLazer]

OMG you have AMAZING closed captions. THANK YOUUUUUU

[@funhistory]

Thanks for the excellent production work on your informative videos. This one in particular covered an impressive range of topics.

[@FoundMyFitness]

You are so welcome! Really appreciate the "super thanks." And the supportive words - really encouraging after a long release cycle. Episodes like these are such a privilege, because I learn a lot (along with my team) from the literature review we do when we look everything up. That's the benefit of having amazing people like Dr. Gibala on.

[@nosretep1960]

Perfect timing. This time of year is a major PITA. I change my method and schedule every year, I was doing sprint HIIT in the spring, have to quit because of the heat, then the pool shuts down every September for maintenance, so in September it was diminished power and strength training. I was already excited for the first of October, this cranked it up at least a notch. TX Dr Rhonda!❤

[@FoundMyFitness]

Glad Dr. Gibala and I could be of service!

[@richiejames928]

This is absolutely brilliant. Thank you DR Rhonda and DR Martin

[@Surfsailwaves]

Yes, it was gripping + pitched at just the right level. Extra thanks for excellent timestamps and screenshots of key references.

[@richiejames928]

@@Surfsailwaves i agree. I just wish the references stayed up a little longer as I struggle to read them that quickly

[@richiejames928]

@@mroyal007 yeah that’s a little jarring. I watch long form videos on my tv and don’t want to have to sit holding the remote waiting to hit pause.

[@Surfsailwaves]

@@richiejames928 I find that taking a screenshot is better than the fiddly pause-rewind-read. Screenshot then read at leisure…

[@timrizzo3941]

Very interesting stuff. Especially to a masters runner, where the emphasis needs to shift towards more quality and less volume in order to stay injury free, and grappling with the ever present desire to maximize performance while muscle mass inevitably decreases year to year. All the same, the idea of trying to reduce exercise to the minimum amount of time to gain VO2max benefits is very strange to me. The #1 reason I put in the time in zone 1&2 is for what it does for my mood and focus.

[@psycholars1]

​@@250txcWhat kind body pain do you mean? Also, they adress injuries in the podcast. The guy has a chronic knee injury but still finds ways to do his HIIT

[@psycholars1]

@@250txc yeah, idk man. If you can't run without pain I'd be willing to guess you have some injury and/or disease. However there are myriads of less taxing methods of interval training. Stationary bikes or rowing machines for instance. Good luck man

[@svengali5415]

ironically, the idea of maxxing out Zone 2 and 80/20 for VO2 max improvement was once viewed as very strange, because interval training had been in vogue for years....as Martin observed, every decade or so, interval training becomes the flavour of the month...i guess this cycle is a good thing because it implies ongoing research output and learning i think the thing with sports science research is that new research tend to be inadvertently over- hyped because: 1. the area is relatively new and comparatively underfunded, so when new data/discoveries come along, it's a big deal 2. their newness plays into a predisposition to novelty common across the field of sports performance; competitors are always striving for any edge 2. sports science's research findings are relatable and appeal to a broad audience, hence more "content creators" are explaining, distributing (and monetising) them on YT and other social/digital channels. The more is made, the more is seen and the greater the perception of incremental value personally, i don't count Zone 1 as exercise (more minimum daily movement), and wouldn't give up Zone 2 for VO2 max improvement. I'd just make room for some interval training...

[@Fitnessnatural850]

Esta entrevista es oro puro! Un nuevo suscriptor al canal. Muy agradecido por compartir entrevistas de científicos serios como,entre otros,Martin gibala,Stuart Philips y Brad schoenfeld. Saludos!

[@juliennereid8214]

9/23 10:30am thank you so much for this episode it really spoke to me as I have a heart condition and do primarily low to moderate exercise but a lot!!! I’m an ultra runner! You touched on what I think about ALL the time! I do more low to moderate and do try to sprinkle in some high intensity. But not a lot. I feel that and have had good results. Thanks again!!!!

[@michele2716]

Love these common sense doable tips to get us on the path, with insight into advanced levels. Super helpful. Ty!

[@AJ99]

Really excellent discussion. Very informative and it was wonderful to have all the relevant citations showing (must have been much work). Great index, also. Thank you.

[@AUM9]

Great podcast! Thank you! Can we have one on colesterol levels and how to drop it please ?

[@deannechrystal5089]

Brilliant. I second that suggestion!!! Ty

[@MasterBrain182]

Astonishing content Dr. Rhonda Patrick 💯💯 Thanks to share your knowledge, time and joy with us 🥳 God bless you girl! Thumbs Up from Brazil girl, yeeeh 👍👍👍

[@mindcache5650]

Spot on. I was eating one meal a day at 1600 hrs , working out intensively 6 days per week for 2 hours each time but didn’t lose an ounce for 10 years. Rest of the time super stressed, sitting in front of excel sheets and doing far too much weightlifting. Changed to low intensity carb, deep breathing in the steam room . Weights all - boggy just once every 2 weeks . Lost 25 KGS of visceral fat in 2 months

[@Sky10811]

try Hoffman process (1 week deep dive). a bit pricey but really good, works like 1 year of psychotherapy

[@AudioTruyenLangQue]

Thank you so much for your help and advice, I really appreciate your job. I wish you happiness and peace under the sky of prosperity. All the best. Take care and have a good time

[@hugechimp]

Excellent info for HIIT enthusiasts. Lifelong health conscience that LEVELED UP on my vo2 max after incorporating HIIT... LOVE Dr. Rhonda Thank YOU!

[@omgautam6581]

I find it so valuable. Thanks both of you.

[@keithdow8327]

Thanks!

[@thinkfitapp]

Yes🎉 that's why we developed our app! We are introducing physical activity (even vigorous ones) in between daily task and work, without impacting your schedule and taking advantage of the synergic effect on 🧠!❤

[@bluebagel8084]

Great to see Michael Stipe post R.E.M

[@Seanmufc89]

Super high intensity training S-H-I-T

[@juanrivera8566]

SHIT we all must do.

[@maillardsbearcat]

Full utilization cardiac kinesis

[@straightedgeveganbel2453]

🤣🤣🤣

[@monroetinker9844]

Great interview,! I have switched my training over to zone two, I was doing a lot of zone four and five intervals on my echo bike with a good response VO2 max. After this I want to switch over back to the intervals. Can you tell me where you get your portable blood lactate machine please? I had a blood lactate test done to determine my heart rate zones would love to have my own so that I can dial-in!

[@brentkimball8866]

Interesting how these notions change over time. In 1991 I did VO2 twice at Colorado Springs Olympic training center. They were doing drug performance testing and my VO2 were 78 and 81. Coaches of those days said VO2 was set and couldn’t be improved. Their suggestion was to work to improve my efficiency when cycling as an avid/competitive rider. I will share high intensity is rarely touched by most. ALL OUT interesting place to explore

[@nymthehavoc]

super informative session, thanks a lot!

[@Game7Mode]

This video is a tour de force in making me happy I chose the athletic life.

[@anthonylawrence5842]

How about the difference caused by say KETO and the availability of ketones versus High Carb and glucose availability?

[@funhistory]

Please re-check your segment timestamps in the Description. For example, it currently shows 00:50:27 for "Exercise snacks", but that actually begins at 47:33. Maybe all are shifted because of including "In this episode" at 00:00:00. THANKS!

[@FoundMyFitness]

We have fixed this and a handful of other timestamps. I am very appreciative that you made this comment. Thank you!

[@jerrydesu]

Is HIIT better than regular walking/jogging for blood pressure?

[@jesperburns]

@@250txc Didn't get enough hugs from mommy?

[@authentichealthcoach4142]

Most programs that are designed in the fitness industry are not HIIT it is High Intensity Steady State. TABATA is a High Intensity Steady State because the W:R is not sufficient enough to allow recovery and restoration of substrates. The programming is the problem- not the research. The research is concrete and there are a vast array of variables we can use to program for people to meet their needs. Coaching and programming are 2 aspects that are crucial to finding the right “fit” for people. Dr. Gibala is a colleague of mine and we are actively working on studies together. It is my company that he mentioned who he is working with.

[@svengali5415]

fantastic point re TABATA being high intensity steady state. IMO the average TABATA workout is worth not much more than 1x5 minute HIIT interval @ 80%.

[@authentichealthcoach4142]

@@svengali5415 TABATA is kind of effective on the Bike for a short HISS impulse but that’s about it. Leave it to the fitness industry to take that protocol and use it for everything. Really ineffective in my experience.

[@anthonylawrence5842]

What are the long term effects of high levels of aerobic exercise on cardiometabolic health of elite athletes. Immune system and respiration for example?

[@ReyShady05]

Hey Ronda have you ever experimented with ginger tea? Thanks!

[@vitalijussivakovas334]

Thank you ❤ brilliant information as always 🙏

[@sergy5337]

At 23:17 there is a caption which says that HR max does not increase with training" - which contradicts everything I thought about it. Quick search seems to confirm that statement. I am 65yo who have never been an athlete in any sport. My HR max should be around 155 by basic age-based formulae, or 169 by HUNT formulae. But I regularly exercise with HR in 175-185 range. I thought it was because I've been exercising all my life. If exercise doesn't increase HR max, I wonder what makes mine so high, and it is actually a bad thing, not good as I thought?

[@damageinc.3695]

My wife was training for a marathon a few years ago. We did the max heart rate exercise very precicely and she was at 183 bpm for max heart rate. A few weeks later, she was on a 10km cross country trail and was chased by a grizzly bear with two cubs. Her heart rate chest strap had her at 192.

[@ukaserex]

I suppose the question I might expect would be - how do you know if you run out of endurance before you reach the max HR? Or is the lack of endurance simply the current limiter on HR until that endurance can be reached? There's a lot of folks, for whatever reason, aren't going to be able to run 400m without stopping, let alone running it full speed.

[@JennyLeClair]

@@250txcre-read his question, you’re misinterpreting

[@henrikmadsen2176]

Is this 2 hours and 45 minutes ??? 😲😲😲 We will all LOVE the person who makes a summary of it in bullet format 🙂 ❤

[@FoundMyFitness]

Get the show notes www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/martin-gibala 00:00:00 - In this episode 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:03:22 - What is high-intensity training? 00:04:15 - Zone 2 vs. HIIT for VO2 max - which is better? 00:05:44 - The vital role of vigorous exercise 00:07:02 - Why VO2 max matters for longevity 00:10:07 - Why athletes vs. exercisers benefit from different intensity distributions 00:14:31 - Measuring maximum heart rate and VO2 max 00:22:53 - How the heart adapts to HIIT to increase VO2 max 00:28:09 - Why vigorous exercise accelerates mitochondrial adaptation 00:32:28 - Enhancing fat oxidation and mitochondrial growth with vigorous exercise 00:36:44 - How intensive exercise boosts fat breakdown 00:38:18 - Is high-intensity exercise better for autophagy than fasting? 00:47:36 - Exercise snacks 00:50:15 - Vigorous Intermittent Lifestyle Physical Activity (VILPA) 00:53:01 - Protocol for VO2 max 00:58:12 - The effect of HIIT on muscle fiber types 01:02:40 - How aging effects muscle fibers 01:06:31 - Does high-intensity training produce an “afterburn effect?" 01:08:35 - Why vigorous workouts are better for BDNF and cognition 01:15:37 - Anti-metastatic cancer effects 01:42:45 - Wingate training vs. reHIIT - a comparison of protocols 01:48:00 - Perceived exertion vs. HRmax 01:51:45 - Interval walking for people with type 2 diabetes 01:53:28 - Are there contradictions for HIIT? 01:57:28 - Why preconditioning reduces risks from exercise 02:03:06 - Can resistance training be a type of aerobic exercise? 02:08:46 - Does cardio and strength training interfere with each other? 02:11:07 - How many minutes per week of high-intensity training? 02:19:20 - Are there sex differences in high-intensity training? 02:19:20 - Misconceptions on high-intensity interval training for women 02:20:04 - Should post-menopausal women do H.I.I.T.? 02:20:09 - Does intense exercise raise cortisol? 02:26:23 - Bone density and osteoarthritis 02:29:02 - Atrial fibrillation risk 02:31:35 - Hypoxic training and blood flow restriction 02:33:07 - Tips for training with joint issues

[@svengali5415]

thanks very much for the outstanding podcast Dr Rhonda, and for sharing your personal journey moving from Tabata style training to HIIT....i was wondering how you were managing to survive 5 HIIT sessions, now i know! ... the pain cave and post-session recovery associated with 6-8(20/10) Tabata are quite different compared to those arising from 2-5 minute work intervals @ true 80% just wondering if, next time you cover this topic, could you please include some discussion on: 1. the importance of warming up properly before high intensity exertion, and cooling down afterwards (esp whether length and intensity of warm-up depends on the protocol) 2. the significance of exercise selection (e.g. airdyne v running v swimming) to an athlete's ability to produce consistent performance with low injury risk across the minimum recommended HIIT dose (say, 3x weekly), including whether exercises with mainly concentric force production should be preferred (eg airdyne, sled sprints, maybe some hill sprints) 3. techniques for titrating effort during intervals of various durations...to this end, in my experience it's both physiologically and psychologically easier for ex-sprint athletes (eg kayak 500m-1000m, sprinters 400m etc) to do 'true' 2-4/5 minute 80%+ intervals because the duration matches the events they've trained and raced thousands of time. to this end, when the gun goes, they don't build progressively (even for the first 30 seconds) - they drop the hammer for, say, 20 seconds; down- regulate slightly to facilitate lactate clearance; then spend the remainder of the race (interval) "dancing" around Vo2max/Vo2max+. obviously, a one-off race demands more than 4 repeats with 3 minutes rest in between, but you get the idea! 4. what the research indicates about rest interval duration and intensity (eg, the Norwegians are prescribing 3 minutes @70% in their 4x4 because it maximises lactate clearance specific to a 4 minute work interval)..... currently, the general recommendations seem very broad, which novices may view as flexible & hence helpful, but which more athletic people may view as frustrating when psyching themselves for a true 80%+ session.....eg. 3 mins recovery @70% is vastly different to 4 mins @ 50% in terms of the actual and perceived exertion required to maintain consistent power output during the subsequent work interval 5. the argument that HIIT is somewhat of a false economy - not just because studies omit or downplay the obligatory warm up and cool down periods - but because they never seem to take into account the time taken for systemic recovery post-session, especially among genpop and especially novices. For example, anyone who thinks they can do a true Norwegian 4x4, then hop off an airdyne, shower, dress and pop off to work like they usually do after a 30 minute level 2 run will be in for a surprise. After spending 3-5 minutes lying on the ground hyperventilating, there will likely be 10-15 minutes of lightheadedness during which cognitive function will feel impaired rather than enhanced. It'll take another 20 minutes to stop perspiring, esp if they're fit. Bar the sweating, their recovery experience will improve over time. That said, it's probably wise to forewarn novices in particular in order to facilitate session planning and drive home the level of effort that's truly required in "all-out" work intervals of 2-5 minutes duration best regards and thanks again

[@scottymackay1801]

With regards to brain health and feeling 'sharper' etc after high intensity, is that not just stress hormones? fight or flight activation similar to how people talk about the clarity of mind after a cold shower?

[@orion9k]

Hiit and weight lifting increases vasodialation which increases brain function, but anything that gets your muscles working hard will create vasodialation. Cold has opposite effect on blood vessels, constricts them, same as coffee and smoking, it constricts the vessels meaning your heart needs to work harder to maintain same oxygen and nutrient flow to your tissues eg. muscles, joints, eyes, brain etc.

[@sleepinglaffey3886]

​@@orion9kGet myokines and xenohormesis whenever you can. Resveratrol and 44C hot showers are how I go about things. - Meat based KD sprinter

[@worldnomad2301]

I have 90 year olds in therapy where I have improved wattage outputs on a NuStep leg sprints from 15-30 watts initially to 250-300 watts approximately 6 weeks later. I have them do 3-5 sprints with 3-5min rest. I let them sprint to their peak output and stop them when I start seeing the wattage drop. This takes 15-20sec or so. They usually improve each session.

[@scottymackay1801]

With regards to Cortisol, a few years ago I developed a strange pattern of not having good sleep on days of higher intensity exercise be it weights or cardio. It took awhile to connect the dots as the doctor immediately told me I had anxiety and wanted to give me pills. I took 6 weeks off any high intensity and my sleep went back to normal. I restarted higher intensity exercise and my sleep went to sh*t again within a week. It seems that my stress hormones aren't coming down fast enough after exercise. Now I only do two higher intensity days a week and take 10mg propranolol and a very low dose quarter or half of a anti-represent pill and my sleep is still slightly disturbed, but I can fall back to sleep easily whereas without the pills it's hard to fall asleep and I wake up at 4am and there's little chance of getting back to sleep.

[@MB-up3mh]

Do you still get higher cortisol after zone 2 cardio? For me it doesn't interfere with my sleep, quite the opposite, I sleep like a rock

[@scottymackay1801]

@@MB-up3mh No. As long as my heart rate remains somewhere in the region of 130bpm or lower, I'm usually good for sleep (it's not fantastic but decent). I can also get away with doing say 4-6 sprints lasting a few seconds. Even though my heart rate spikes, it seems too short to release tonnes of stress hormones. My worst sleep is when doing weights typically 45mins or if I do 85% of max cardio for a sustained period like 40mins. The funny thing is, my BEST sleep is if I do nothing all day. If I just watch TV and lounge about, my sleep is perfect. Which seems to be the exact opposite of most people. it's been a few years now and I've tried everything. The pills work quite well but if I go hard like a 5k at a decent pace, I typically need to double my dose as I won't even be able to get to sleep. it's a strange one.

[@doloresmira]

I have the same issue, 3.00AM I was up. I have switched the high intensity or weight lifting in the morning to allow for cortisol level to lower.

[@scottymackay1801]

@@doloresmira I've never met someone with the same issue! yeah, I've tried moving routine to the morning and it helps a bit, but still crappy sleep. At least it's only a couple of times a week.

[@sleepinglaffey3886]

​​@@scottymackay1801I would get inflammatory cytokines like CRP and TNF A looked at. as well as cardiometabolic fitness like TG and fasting insulin looked at (along other bad habits like drinking caffeine without the theanine or running at VO2 max beyond 30 secs). - Meat based KD sprinter

[@mattepton5731]

Wonderful video and information, thank you 🙏

[@krisjay1558]

outstanding. Thought he would sing "everybody hurts" or "losing my religion" but this was good on VO2Max.

[@jaypunt9385]

What type of program/set - rep protocol would be good for men and women over the age of 60? Non-competiitve, former athletes looking to increase strength and cardio.

[@bennguyen1313]

Regarding how vo2max (maximum amount of o2 can be utilized) is mostly determined by the delivery side ( maximum cardiac output rate : stroke volume x heart rate) rather than the the utilization side (how well can muscles/mitochondria pull that oxygen from the blood)... isn't there a 3rd component of how well you the your lungs can pull the oxygen from the air? For example, Gary Brecka recommends using Hypermax (oxygen concentrator) when doing high intensity exercise! Regarding maximum heart rate (220-age) and using the worldfitnesslevel to estimate vo2max... any thoughts on grip-strength as a longevity marker?

[@fatihb.1280]

How influential is the intensity during the low intensity part of HIIT ? Let's say I am doing something like: 2 minutes low intensity, 20 second high intensity, repeat 3 times. What difference does it make if I walk during the low intensity part or jog at a comfortable pace ?

[@carlherzog1410]

This is great stuff. Very informative. My understanding is that Zone 2 training, however, is not for increasing VO2 max, its to train your body to improve your metabolic efficiency, i.e., to preferentially burn fat instead of glucose. The guest talks about how close you can work to the ceiling for the longest time, but it seems there are (at least) 2 relevant ceilings. One is clearly VO2 max, but the transition point between burning a practically unlimited supply of fat and a strictly limited supply of carbohydrate also seems important.

[@FoundMyFitness]

So I think one of the points that Dr. Gibala makes is that working at intensities that produce a demand on anaerobic metabolism stimulates mitochondrial adaptation, which makes you a better fat oxidizer. 00:32:27 "You don't have to only work at a high rate of fatty acid oxidation in order to get that boost in mitochondria. So there's many different ways to stimulate that, including short, intensive types.” That isn't strictly a contradiction with the idea that doing (potentially) a lot of work at a low-to-moderate intensity may have a lot of value for certain individuals (see also 00:10:07).

[@maadman117]

@@FoundMyFitness Dr San Millan who is undoubtedly a world leading expert postulates that zone 2 is more effective at increasing mitochondrial count. And the experts at INCSYD talk about the benefits of having a low VLamax for long event endurance athletes, meaning your lactate production for a given intensity is lower than with other athletes. HIT intervals definitely burn mostly glucose, not fatty acids, the accumulating lactate is an indication of this (anaerobic) process. The mitochondria then metabolise lactate for further ATP. If you are striving for a low VLAmax you would likely avoid hard interval training

[@FoundMyFitness]

I think a major take-away is that we should pay a lot of attention to who the message is for, because it makes a big difference in terms of intensity distribution in terms of whether you're a committed athlete vs. a committed exerciser. Low-to-moderate work loads are less effective at increasing mitochondrial biogenesis for committed exercisers that don't put in hours of work each week, but as Dr. Gibala highlights at 10:07 the optimal intensity distribution can look quite different for endurance athletes which will ultimately benefit spending more time in these zones. @@maadman117

[@maadman117]

@@FoundMyFitness yep 45 mins Zone 2 probably isn't long enough. But zone 2 is an absolutely sustainable way to train, a factor that is often ignored and becomes a serious issue for those also doing strength and leading stressful lives. Fittingly, I just received an Email from INSCYD titled: "VO2 max,-does it really matter-or is it overrated?" Clickbait of course, but they are adamant that other factors can be equally important, and the highest VO2max won't guarantee a win.

[@carlherzog1410]

Yes. If forced to choose by the time-restricted scenario that many people inhabit, relying on HIIT to the exclusion of zone 2 training makes sense for health and longevity. HIIT is also clearly better for rapid gains. What's not so clear (as mentioned in the podcast) is whether that's the best way to go for the long term.

[@sahanaravindranath5777]

Can we do resistance training with weights and calisthenics type of functional training on the same day?

[@ParisVega]

Great info. Must sit less and sleep more... i basically need to change careers to achieve health it sounds like. Working on it.

[@andrewwhite1065]

Still need a good endurance base before any really high intensity efforts.

[@davidhunt6306]

I don't see why. I started out 3 years ago only being able to do 20 seconds HIIT 3 times with 2.5 minutes rest in between. Now my Vo2Max is 59. I can only do HIIT because a knee issue prevents me from running or cycling (I box for HIIT). My aerobic endurance is far better and as I said, Vo2Max is very high for a 46 year old male.

[@PerryScanlon]

​@@davidhunt6306how many days a week of intensity? And do you have a job and family? It's hard to go hard every day.

[@094340]

​​@@PerryScanlon You're missing the whole point. High Intensity workouts require LESS time than steady state cardio. Therefore, regardless of whatever responsibilities you have, you should still be able to squeeze these workouts in. Also, no, this type of workout is needed 2 or 3 times a week, rest is required in between, much like resistance training.

[@094340]

Not true from what I've gleaned from the science, and from my personal experience.

[@PerryScanlon]

@@094340 obviously you don't train as a competitive athlete or understand limitations of aging. A lot of these sedentary and recreational athletes don't know what "all out" means and aren't really sprinting. Same with so-called HIT. Long intervals should accumulate a lot of time around 88 to 92% of max HR with active recoveries. Short 3 to 5 min intervals with 4 min active recoveries exceed 95% of max HR with extremely heavy breathing that most people are not really doing when they say "HIT workout."

[@authentichealthcoach4142]

Variability of training stress is optimization of health- metabolic and mechanical flexibility is crucial for health. Here is the coolest part about HEALTH and LONGEVITY…. VARIABILITY IS SPECIFICITY and the KEY to OPTIMIZATION of Health and Performance

[@benslagter]

I was doing my last exercise snack of the day while he started to talk about that.

[@rsolom6]

what about the J curve? What about exercise over max heart rate ? like 90 0r 100% for short intervals??????

[@Surfsailwaves]

Surely ‘over max HR’ isn’t possible, by definition? Would be happy if an exercise physiologist could please clarify…

[@RIPxBlackHawk]

Zone 2 is efficiency. Hiit is Max volume. A gas tank can both get more out of the fuel it stores as well as store more of fuel. Hiit is additional to zone 2 not to replace it. I'm not am expert but that's what has been explained before. To see zone 2 being compared here is misinforming

[@bmp713]

I want to see more research investigating long term results comparing Zone 2 to HIIT. I keep hearing the claim by coaches that Zone 2 better increases heart chamber size and stroke volume but takes more time. And that HIIT plateaus quickly and causes over-training. I want to see the research showing which intensity distribution does in fact most increase chamber size and stroke volume. All I can find is anecdotal evidence on Zone 2. In other words does Zone 2 continue to increase the heart size while HIIT gives quicker results but over time is less effective?

[@Sky10811]

would be good first to explain what is vo2 max and why we need it

[@ondrej1893]

There are studies that show identical adaptations across the board in both “strength/hypertrophy” and “cardiovascular fitness” parameters, for example comparing bike sprints and high effort leg press sets. It means the intensity/effort gives you pretty much all adaptations, and the modality is up to you. Of course over time the hypertrophy benefits will be better from resistance training because it is easier to use progressive overload than in swimming or biking. Also with resistance training you can truly engage all muscles and cause muscle specific adaptations, while biking would largely limit those to your legs. While aerobic benefits will be identical from both approaches. The choice is yours.

[@orion9k]

When i do legg press i feel like im about to pass out and struggling with breathing, also a heart rate of 150-165 so it's definately working my heart and lungs afterwards.

[@ondrej1893]

@@orion9k And the really important parameter is cardiac output. How much blood is pumped out from heart per unit of time. Which is heart rate x stroke volume. And stroke volume is higher in resistance training, because venous return is higher. (Frank-Starling law) So even if heart rate was somewhat lower in resistance training, it is more than compensated for by increased stroke volume so the cardiac output is higher than in cardio.

[@svengali5415]

this is a very good point. I suspect that sport science's relative lack of research into the crossover benefits of resistance training (and occasional resistance to the notion that such training can provide any aerobic benefit) isn't due to lack of merit but reflects available funding and legacy biases against resistance training

[@leland12345]

Isn't classic heavy weight training "HIIT"?

[@USSHammerology]

I did wind sprints when running track in the mid 90's. Run all out for 1/4 of the track then jog 1/4 and repeat. Seems like that was HIIT training.

[@BlackButterFlyTongue]

I do HIIT on a rebounder and I do HIIT weight lifting. My body is tight and toned.

[@jlvandat69]

So glad to see this video. My running has recently become challenging for reasons unknown.....very hard to move out of Zone 2 for any length of time, which is a new problem for me. I'm concerned about my VO2 max, so maybe this video will help.

[@250txc]

lol --- What is zone 2 and how do you know what, when, or where it is? lol --- We all have a V02 MAX ... It is really just a measurement tool that is used ... The average runner has no reason to worry about it.

[@094340]

Welp, great interview, I was all in until the part about coronary calcification. Where did that come from? After so many positive aspects of interval training were discussed, my stomach sank to my feet when they agreed about the possible negative, chiefly heart calcification. It's not a total deal beaker for me, but now it gives me pause to go all out.

[@FoundMyFitness]

On the one hand, you have the coronary calcification, but if you have reduced mortality - what's the clinical significance? More importantly, the observation about coronary calcification isn't specific to HIIT. It's an observational data point about endurance athletes as a group. I anticipate a future interview exploring this topic in detail.

[@094340]

@@FoundMyFitness I'll look forward to that, thank you, you're a pleasure to follow. I'm still going to do my 8 reps of sprints, thrice weekly, and keep my fingers crossed that I don't keel over. 😁 At 62, you never know.

[@binathere2574]

​@@094340 I've been toying with HIIT. I'm going to use my rebounder. I'm 68.

[@ManlioLoGiudice]

Great episode! I'd love to interview both of you on my podcast ❤. Question : how High intensity Resistance training fits into the equation? Training this way to failure should produce many similar effect then HIIT.

[@FoundMyFitness]

Are you just HIRTing to know? We cover it at 02:03:06

[@ManlioLoGiudice]

​@@FoundMyFitnessyep I was not there yet when leaving the comment 😅 fully aligned, alternating HIRT and HIIT as needed plus, time permitted, Zone 2. But of course it depends, as you did in this interview. 🙏

[@anthonylawrence5842]

What I find particularly interesting which I'm about to test in more detail - is how calisthenic exercises at high repetitions affect Vo2 max and compares with HIIT - eg 3 sets of dips for 20 reps or 3 sets of pressups for 25 reps

[@psycholars1]

Interesting idea. I was thinking more of combining the two, e.g. 20 push ups immediately supersetted with some kind of intense cardio, e.g. rowing machine for 30 sec. Then your 90 sec pause or what have you. Seems like it might be a ridiculously time efficient way to both build muscle and get these VILPA's in

[@anthonylawrence5842]

@@psycholars1Thanks, interesting idea, worth a shot. After 60 years I should be able to detect a difference. All my vital signs are very stable. I'm about to check VO2MAX, Lactate and HSCRP to establish a baseline, then I'll give it a try.

[@psycholars1]

@@anthonylawrence5842 Exciting stuff man, wish you great health for many years to come!

[@anthonylawrence5842]

@@psycholars1 Thanks and to you - great work please keep us informed of developments

[@scottymackay1801]

Very interesting indeed and have heard about these short bursts of 1min stuff before, but I'm not going to get sweaty 5 times a day 😂. 1min is like a 400m sprint/run and I think I'd break out in a sweat after that.

[@SpoileralertGMA47]

21:38 shout out to 90’s schooling with the pacer test!

[@Game7Mode]

I always sprint when I jaywalk even if there's no cars. It may seem excessive in an isolated case but over the course of my life I will have completed hundreds if not thousands more sprints than an equivalent me which was more concerned with looking silly to onlookers instead of being awesome whenever the chance arises.

[@RXP91]

I feel the best measure of fitness progression is that if your power output is increasing at the same heart rate your program is working. You don’t need to measure vo2max.

[@gigics6695]

You may be correct…. but Vo2max is clearly and exactly measurable.

[@RXP91]

@@gigics6695 Power output at a certain heart rate is also measurable (precise). Below threshold ramp tests are really good for that & unlike vo2max they're easy to complete & don't suffer a discomfort penalty which can bias a max effort test. i.e. if you're not used to training at vo2max you'll quit before you really hit vo2max

[@esterig.9955]

Is tabatha enough. One round 4 minutes and daily

[@AndreObradovicAus]

My VO2 MAx is 60 as measured by my Garmin I am 58 and 80% of my training is MAF Training in Low Zone 2 for me 100-120 beats the only time I go hard is racing i.e 5km or 10km run at 150beats per minute but that is it.. 5km in 21.20 10km in 44.20

[@mindc0ntr0l94]

5k 21min and 10k 44min is not Vo2max 60. Maybe 47.

[@AndreObradovicAus]

Also if you want to run faster you need to generate power from the legs,. so run less and get into the gym and do single leg work you will generate more power and this will allow you to run faster it is not all about cardio!

[@Mrnobody957]

While this is a great interview the net is spread very vast and it is more of a motivational video than giving concrete specific advice to specific group of people which could have been accommodated in this length of time. Every answer is "It depends ...." and how doing very little can still do wonders for you. This is mushy oatmeal advice as opposed to thunderstorm and lightening.

[@rliao]

Rather surprised that VILPA still had benefit in exercisers

[@doggielove3672]

Thanks for tuning in. If you have any suggestions about things you would like to see, please leave it in the comments.

[@250txc]

I'm with you and understand training to a good degree, but few are gonna do that V02 MAX checkup. Forget that extreme athletic here... It is just gonna turn people away ....

[@raoSENSEI]

More pain... More gain... The right kind pain. Hiit is a tough proposition.

[@JustZPlease]

the VILPA study sounds interesting, but I think that is has a bias, becasuse VILPA is done more by healtyh people with lower BMIs, so it not only their daily excercise it has dependencies so no surprise here.

[@RXP91]

Rhonda is going to discover Achilles tendonopathy if she starts hill sprints without any sprinting background! I did that in my 20s, brutal

[@altaracks]

May we offer a better way of measurement. Are you getting better in what you love to do? for us is cycling, snowboarding, lifting kids, and moving things.

[@Manomahi789]

Nice

[@ivanandreevich8568]

3-5 min x 4 all out are seriously some of the most painful stuff you can do though 😅

[@svengali5415]

indeed, and the idea that total session time incl immediate recovery is much shorter is a bit naive, TBH

[@KasKade7]

Timewise nothing beats burpees for vo2max imho.

[@cholakicha]

1:45:00

[@evanhadkins5532]

The no upper limit may apply to moderate exercise - not high intensity. Very few studies on this so far. Also the contrast with elite athletes is not the whole story - the move from sub-elite to elite isn't a lot.

[@evanhadkins5532]

I'm wondering about trading off moderate and vigorous. Would doing only one have the same benefits as the other; i.e. does 20 min moderate do the same as 10 min vigorous? I haven't seen any guidance on this.

[@evanhadkins5532]

Many thanks for the link on interval walking. I've been looking for this kind of thing for ages.

[@annawilson3824]

2:14:24

[@gordangrebovic4128]

Not a single word on how to actually do a vigorous exercise or did I miss something?

[@FoundMyFitness]

At 00:53:01 Dr. Gibala gets a little more into a protocol with interval lengths, number, how often, etc.

[@cristobal.palmero4919]

HIIT vs REHIT, vs SIT

[@wmp3346]

Great guest 👏👏 🙌

[@metroplex3k]

These aren’t exactly risky studies - so just do the studies already! Way too many questions being asked in this video.

[@jpintero6330]

Professor Luigi Fontana says that exercise is quite overrated for longevity. You should have someone on that doesn't put all the eggs in the exercise basket. You know, for science. Luigi Fontana also looks a decade younger than his 54 years, and he is really the only longevity expert that seems to have the formula right for aging.

[@davidhunt6306]

What is his formula for longevity?

[@gregt5530]

Nonesense

[@jackbuaer3828]

Luigi appears to to me be ignoring much of the evidence. In the fully adjusted model (model 3), compared with participants not meeting the physical activity guidelines, the risk of all cause mortality was found to be 11% (hazard ratio 0.89, 95% confidence interval 0.85 to 0.94) lower in those engaging in recommended muscle strengthening activity and 29% (0.71, 0.69 to 0.72) lower in those engaging in recommended aerobic activity, and the risk in those who engaged in both activities was found to be 40% Source: Recommended physical activity and all cause and cause specific mortality in US adults: prospective cohort study BMJ 2020(Published 01 July 2020) CNN's description of the study below "Older adults who did weight training without any aerobic activity reduced their risk of early death from any cause by up to 22%, a percentage that depended on the number of times they lifted weights within a week - using weights once or twice weekly was associated with a 14% lower risk, and the benefit increased the more times someone lifted weights. "Exercise more than the recommended amounts for the longest life, study says Those who did aerobic exercise lowered their risk by up to 34%, compared with participants who didn’t do any weight training or aerobic exercise. But the lowest risk - 41% to 47% - was among those who met recommended weekly amounts of aerobic activity (see below for guidance) and lifted weights once or twice per week, compared with those who weren’t active. The authors didn’t find a lower risk for death from cancer." Gorzelitz J, Trabert B, Katki HA, Moore SC, Watts EL, Matthews CE. Independent and joint associations of weightlifting and aerobic activity with all-cause, cardiovascular disease and cancer mortality in the Prostate, Lung, Colorectal and Ovarian Cancer Screening Trial. Br J Sports Med. 2022 Sep 27 From my other comment in this video: In this paper, the greater the amount of light intensity exercise, the lower the HR. HR continued decreasing even after 850 minutes of exercise per week with little leveling off of the decrease in risk with increased exercise. . Benefits for intense exercise topped out at 150 minutes and were no where near close to 900 minutes of light intensity exercise. See figures 1a, 1b. O'Keefe JH, O'Keefe EL, Eckert R, Lavie CJ. Training Strategies to Optimize Cardiovascular Durability and Life Expectancy. Mo Med. 2023 Likewise, in this paper risk of all cause mortality was trending downward all the way up to 26,000 steps per day Sheng M, Yang J, Bao M, Chen T, Cai R, Zhang N, Chen H, Liu M, Wu X, Zhang B, Liu Y, Chao J. The relationships between step count and all-cause mortality and cardiovascular events: A dose-response meta-analysis. J Sport Health Sci. 2021 While not totally related to this subject, NAD increased with high daily step counts. Older adults , logging on average more than 13 thousand daily steps had NAD levels similar to that of college aged individuals according to articles that reviewed: Janssens, G.E., Grevendonk, L., Perez, R.Z. et al. Healthy aging and muscle function are positively associated with NAD+ abundance in humans. Nat Aging 2, 254-263 (2022) How much more evidence does one need? By the way I think Luigi looks younger than his his age, but not exceptionally so. Hundreds of thousands of other people that have no longevity strategy whatsoever look younger than their age.

[@svengali5415]

that's because he's a nutrition and longevity researcher who writes his own Wikipedia entry

[@mikecar52]

If Rhonda was not finding tabata incredibly difficult she was doing it easy.

[@250txc]

An exercise snack sounds good BUT if I have to be told when and what to do, I'm a follower and at first chance, I burn that wagon that I am following ... god, please help with yours? lol

[@O8080808O]

I have been canceled at your web site. Why?

[@randallhuff4963]

He’s Peter Attia’s brother from another mother

[@javi8129]

🙌🙌🙌

[@250txc]

Mr Gibala keeps bringing the host BACK TO EARTH after she asks a question well beyond most of us here --- People, forget this vo2 stuff... It is only a method to show what your body is doing as it works... IT IS NOT MUCH YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT UNLESS YOU TRAIN SO HARD YOU HURT YOURSELF. So do your workouts, as you like, and the vo2 number will be just that, a number, a reference point that you do not even need to know...Just do something that causes your HR to increase...PERIOD.

[@sterlgirlceline]

⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

[@orhanyuce2864]

❤