Frances Fox Piven vs. Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell

In this clip from the 1980 Free To Choose, socialist Frances Fox Piven tangles with Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell. We thought this would be interesting in light of the dustup between The New York Times and Fox News (Glenn Beck) on the subject of Piven.
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[@daveBit15]

“When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.” ― Thomas Sowell

[@hookalakah]

Milton Friedman was right in 1980, he's right today, and he'll be right in 2180.

[@iluvinternalcombustion]

I love how every argument Friedman hears he's just smiling, he knows he's going to destroy it and it's only a matter of time, it's too easy for him.

[@craigamore2319]

He's like a wily Cheshire cat about to pounce.

[@danielu.4957]

I didn't know that no matter the time of history, leftists always argued against the debater and not the argument itself. Friedman and Sowell, real gentlemen, didn't need to reject their adversary before engage the debate as the british guy has.

[@TheBehm08]

iluvinternalcombustion like a movie or video game when the boss is super overpowered and he’s listening to your plea for his life or that he’s gonna defeat you. And you just laugh hysterically at his gall 😂

[@davidulu9596]

he simply knows the reality of the argument's claims

[@blankblank1949]

Unless he went toe to toe against Samuelson it wont be interesting. Friedman vs Samuelson. Chicago economics vs New Keynesian

[@Vic2point0]

Sowell and Friedman: "The best way to help the poor is-" Their critics: "So you don't care about the poor!? What an outrage!!"

[@azchris1979]

1980: Nobody is talking about absolute equality of outcome. 2019: Anything less than absolute equality or outcome (equity) is immoral. They predicted the future 40 years in advance. It is almost like they have insight. Hmm.

[@lZY8d70P-sTP]

no leftist intellectual in 2019 ar proposing absolute equality of any sort

[@jimbartlett1333]

That statement is intrinsic to socialist doctrine. Apposing argument will invariably be characterized as 'immoral'. Shutting down debate that way is a socialist's universal orthodoxy.It reveals an underlying intellectual dishonesty that is being exposed quite clearly recently and I'm happy to see that given the historical carnage that socialism has left behind it everywhere it's been implemented. Radical egalitarianism is in direct contradiction to human nature and all nature. This is self evident to anyone with even a micron of objectivity.In 1980, they were merely being a little more diplomatic about their world view. Even Sowell and Friedman could see through this rouse then.

[@LovingPrinceTamayuki]

I believe it was Solomon that's said that, "There is nothing new under the sun." If you know the right information, and are wise enough you can predict the thoughts or actions of mankind.

[@Cenot4ph]

it's an impossible aim, but left wing ideology isn't concerned with reality

[@g.lowenklee2268]

And none of you replying in affirmation of the the original comment were at all concerned with the fallacious claim he made that anyone today is credibly talking about equality of outcome (equity or otherwise) ...so one thing is certainly correct as regards then vs now, there's always you nefarious fuckers to reliably tilt at windmills.

[@greywinters4801]

"Compared to what?" This question shuts down communists in no time at all.

[@miamivlad]

Grey Winters Yep. I use Sowell’s three questions, including this one. It’s so sad when a great mind like Sowell’s gets completely ignored then and now, even though he is providing facts backed up by statistical data & research.

[@ssjwes]

@@miamivlad I would've voted for him if he had ran for President.

[@sexistspaghettios]

@@miamivlad could you imagine where we'd be if these 2 men were listened to and taken seriously?! One could only dream!

[@sexistspaghettios]

I only actually discovered this question when listening to the Hoover Institute interview with Douglas Murray and it made so much sense!

[@keepyouright6157]

friedman and sowell were pretty cool dudes

[@DelkorYT]

sowell is still a pretty cool guy

[@catchgenerics8667]

Sowell is still alive my man

[@JTNugget]

I just love how time has only proven them right. And yet people out there willfully turn a blind eye to it.

[@Walkeranz]

Total badasses

[@matepesut]

Its like children asking their dad about the real world.

[@tommydenato8863]

Hahahaha that made me laugh. Good one.

[@peterdragon6367]

Friedman and sowell should be taught in every high school and college in America

[@williamdufour4826]

Friedman and Sowell are correct!

[@Libertino]

Duh! :D

[@Dominancelogistics]

These two men should be studied in jr high and high school.

[@DAVIDWTCS]

Friedman and Sowell should be the standard by which all things economic and government are judged.

[@miamivlad]

Gives me chills watching legends like Friedman & Sowell school the virtue signaling, pompous leftists.

[@zorrier]

As a Chilean citizen, thank you Milton Friedman for making Chile what it is today.

[@philarchuletta]

Someone should replay all of Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell videos in a series on national television or put a documentary together to be watched in the theaters. Our country needs these men today.

[@stephenoni2019]

men, listening to Thomas Sowell is just amazing! so smart, so articulate! dang!

[@jaygerlach6884]

Especially these videos where he is young. The dude had some serious fire in his tone! ;)

[@iPetty14]

It is so refreshing to see a group of people who deeply disagree that actually let each other finish their thoughts. This type of debate does not happen often in society today unfortunately.

[@Calbenmike]

Sowell and Friedman are Tag Team Champions.

[@jacobgolden9482]

Schooled. Friedman AND Sowell is just overkill.

[@toaojackson7447]

Chile now not only the strongest country economically in the region, but also the first south american country to get visa free visits to the U.S.

[@MrDarkbard]

And now, we are being bombarded with lefty communist populism and politics are more on the left than the right. Immigrants pouring into our country with no restrictions or whatsoever. Taxes getting higher. Security on the streets getting low. Drugs taking their share of the population, etc. Is not looking good 'round here.

[@Cenot4ph]

@Wade left wing ideology doesnt concernt itself with the truth that's the scary part of it

[@tonymuhamad]

@Wade who did it work for? Sure, GDP per capita is up, but who's that money going to? "A 2018 government study showed that the richest Chileans had an income nearly 14 times greater than the poorest. Chile is the most unequal of OECD countries, with an income gap that's about 65% higher than the OECD average." That's who. You must think capitalism worked in America. Sad to break it to you buddy, but America has failed more people than it has "helped". We're a country where our laws are written by the elite for the elite. Democrats and Republicans both need to wake tf up and realize it instead of getting wrapped up in destructive and distracting "identity politics". They don't give af about your freedoms, they just want to put more money in their pockets. Friedman was a smart guy, and he might have truly had the best interest of the people in his heart. But he wasn't actually the one who got to choose which of his policies were implemented. Think about that before you praise everything he stands for.

[@tonymuhamad]

"A 2018 government study showed that the richest Chileans had an income nearly 14 times greater than the poorest. Chile is the most unequal of OECD countries, with an income gap that's about 65% higher than the OECD average."

[@padywac1970]

The Independent Chronicler why is it that you point out the the difference or pay gap between the richest and poorest, and fail to point out the fact that the poorest are not as poor? Bringing the rich down doesn’t make the poor less poor. The ideology of taking from the rich always seems to bring EVERYBODY down eventually, why can’t you see this?

[@YManCyberDude]

Friedman is just one of those chaps I sometimes find my self watching for hours on KZbin . . . We just don't have any thinkers like this these days & if we did they would not be permitted the freedom of discourse as was back in his time . . .

[@Godzilla52]

Yeah, its kind of sad. Back then, America had Friedman and Sowell. Today the American right has Dinesh D'souza, Alex Jones and Rush Limbaugh. Honestly the decline of Conservative intellectualism in America is embarrassing.

[@YManCyberDude]

Godzilla52 … Intellectualism in not only America but the entire planet has dropped several points over the last few decades …

[@workingguy]

Well, at Thomas Sowell is still alive (and active)!

[@YManCyberDude]

workingguy … Still digging Thomas Sowell too & the way he still puts his views out there. Good man…

[@MrSquigglypuff]

Thomas Sowell isn't dead...

[@fredpearson5204]

Piven is a perfect example of someone who places more value on emotion than facts. Intellectually, she's overmatched by Friedman or Sowell.

[@TheMrNightrain]

I love how she dodges his question about naming a society throughout history where capitalism wasn't the dominant mechanism.

[@gawrbage]

After reading "vs. Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell" I knew the other side will not stand a chance.

[@JosephMcMurray1984]

If this conversation happened today, a mob of antifa protestors would be outside trying to close the venue

[@BarbaraJoanneBJ]

God!!! (Yes, I am addressing HIM!!) where is today's Friedman? And, since we're chatting sir, please keep Thomas Sowell with us for, oh, a million more years. Thanks.

[@carminesilverado]

+BarbaraJoanneBJ I so strongly agree with you ,the voice of reason

[@CzipperzIncorporated]

Ben Shapiro?

[@es3259]

Ben Shapiro + Jordan Peterson combined

[@vijaynair2403]

Many think it’s Shapiro. I disagree. He’s way too flippant and antagonistic. There’s no one like Friedman. Sowell is still alive. And I hope his and Milton’s intellect and demeanor have touched some young people out there.

[@ryanlong8550]

It was Ron Paul for me.

[@Allothersweretakenn]

Sowell and Friedman on the same side tag teaming got damn it doesn’t get any better than this

[@kenthawley5990]

Milton Friedman was an intellectual giant.

[@quantrindic5488]

Well Milton, seems like they're arguing for equality of identity now too...

[@user-zy1oh8jk7j]

40 years later, you can not have a discussion where the opposing views are so polite as to actually listen and let each other finish their statements.

[@jgbpkoolguys]

Look how civil these people are speaking with each other

[@tekay44]

Chile? Friedman says to Sowell, " hold my beer. " lol.

[@dkswede]

I just came back from a seminar on food security and land grabbing. Again a perfect example of NOT understanding what free market libertarians are standing for. My teacher had a 40 min rant on how capitalism/libertarianism is creating food scarcity in the developed world because of heavy subsidies in the US and in the EU countries. I almost cried! Since when does heavy subsidizing have anything to do with libertarianism?!?!?!

[@b3makinn]

She’s still looking for an example

[@Adam-bq2vw]

When we discuss privilege, we only discuss certain types. What about height privilege? Looks privilege? Geographic privilege? Grew up in educated household privilege? Lack of deformity privilege? Thin privilege? Naturally energetic privilege? Intelligence privilege? Didn't get beat on as a child privilege?...

[@VidkunQL]

A little off topic, but there's a wonderful line in "Enemy at the Gates": "Even in a Soviet world, there will always be rich and poor. Rich in gifts, poor in gifts. Rich in love, poor in love..."

[@xxcrysad3000xx]

VidkunQL Great film, great line.

[@Adam-bq2vw]

+VidkunQL Yep. Good movie, and I think that was its point.

[@MrCordycep]

Unfortunately your gravest fears have been realised. We now have an ever expanding set of perceived privileges that are used by sociopaths to gain access to what they have done nothing to deserve.

[@ElRey_Congo]

“I challenge you to produce a counter example in the history of the world where capitalism as the primary economic mechanism hasn’t produced a freer society “ nobody has ever answered this challenge... it is Milton Friedman’s, Thomas Sowell’s and Walter Williams’ mic drop and pimp slap 👋🏽 The motivation for people in government will always be power at the expense of others, the motivation of free market will always be profit where it’s positive sum and increased choice with freedom and liberty resulting. NO bailouts, NO croney capitalism, NO government in the free market!!!

[@mixmastermeeks]

6:20. That is where Friedman takes over. He listens intently until that point. Then he rips them up. But in a classy way. Friedman has what the liberals never had and never will...... class.

[@happyfndeplorable1605]

Hmm look who keeps interrupting and talking over the other, then get challenged and fall flat. Still a rather civil discussion in the end. Friedman wins, Freedom wins!

[@EltonJThe]

93 people love this program. Thank you for uploading it.

[@jimoyler1780]

Friedman gets it right. Charity through government doesn't result in equality. The character and ability of an individual likewise may not produce equality but it help one know success. I'm not sure about the whole idea of those who think programs can accomplish something by provision. You can make one act like a Christian for example but you can never change a heart where true Christianity is born. Equality? Can't be bought it is earned.

[@beng4151]

Yes, nearly every concern to reduce inequality is wrong. The reason is that it usually backfires and creates MORE inequality. The best way to make things as equal as possible is to, as Milton stated, let people be free to choose.

[@wbgiii]

I love how people could disagree with each other civilly

[@WifeOfTheBeast]

"The entrepreneurs of that free enterprise system have always used government-- and the question that you raised is whether other people can use government to achieve their ends. The free enterprise system as it is spread around the world is spread through the force of arm and those arms....and those arms are wielded by the way of governments. " She is conflating authoritarianism with the free market.

[@zoalord12]

God damn this interviewer is so good. Where are people like these nowadays ?

[@semperparatus3685]

This is when you could debate and argue an idiots position into dust and take the emotionalism to the woodshed and shine light on facts and reality. The "Green New Deal" is a equality of result. Everyone would starve.

[@highdesert420]

I think Thomas Sowell is my favorite person in the world.

[@Drewtazy]

Thomas Sowells brilliance is glowing.

[@republic8886]

you know shit is about to go down when Prof. Friedman taps his glasses

[@Appleblade]

Ms Piven talks about those who "control property" and "control capital" as if they're dirty words, and as if control of property and capital is just power, and not ownership. It's as if the only people she can imagine when she thinks of people with land and money are trust fund kids who inherited them. You know, Ms Priven, even property granted to settlers had to be worked to produce wealth (government creates no wealth when it grants land), and capital is not safe from loss without constant effort. Ownership results from effort, as Locke explained.

[@pigboykool]

OMG, I see the face of evil in this woman's eye she would rip Milton apart if she has the opportunity! lol

[@marcoperrott8160]

This is what modern “talk shows “ are missing.

[@juliebell5158]

🌹Friedman & Sowell ❤

[@crazycat5958]

So good. I love watching these again and again.

[@CarloGuitardello]

Dude, nowadays Milton couldn't even finish a sentence without being interrupted.

[@mohtoadh]

It appears that such constructive, educative discussions rarely occur nowadays; perhaps it is true that the average human IQ is declining.

[@SleekMinister]

Better believe it. More people have never been autistic than today.

[@gybx4094]

Imho, IQ is being forced lower in the name of absolute equality, like Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron". On the common level, SJW absolutism is destroying competition (e.g. team sports, anti-Valedictorianism, etc.) yet it hasn't been able to suppress a Michael Phelps due to quantitative physicality. Yet it has successfully suppressed the potential Friedman/Sowell thinkers in academia. It has squelched freedom of thought/expression through political correctness with hypersensitivity and emotionalism replacing free inquiry. That's just mho, but I'm 58 and my mother is 95, so we have collective memory.

[@johnclever8813]

SleekMinister Autistic have the same IQ on average as other people, but the derivative IQ is much higher. You have many more mentally retarded autists, but you also have people with Asperger’s syndrome who are much smarter on average.

[@JohnSmith-su3ze]

If Thomas Sowell was given the platform that Al Sharpton's had, black people would be running America by now

[@Rensune]

Also, Friedman's view proved Prophetic: The British National Health System (NHS) is now 57 billion pounds in the hole.

[@Harris4465]

I do have to give that woman credit, engaging Thomas Sowell & Milton Friedman in a debate is a tall order to say the least.

[@thegoodgeneral]

Friedman and Sowell in the same room. I think I just felt an earthquake... or was that my shivers?

[@expdh1]

Notice how the conservative economists refrain from allowing emotions to overrun their arguments; this fact still exists in modern politics. Shouting with frustration makes your point no clearer, instead it tarnishes it. Conclusion=The calm and collected debater is probably always the most well versed in the subject of discussion.

[@domingoknife6280]

1:53 Thought bubble: "Imma bout to wreck your world."

[@progste]

And this debate is still going on to this day.

[@Lex-Rex]

You got to love scholars educating scholars. Well . . . Let me say that Milton educates the other scholars.

[@fredpearson5204]

Piven is no scholar.

[@candyhosch7158]

Neo Smith Read Thomas Sowell’s writings about intellectuals. So insightful!

[@physicsmusic]

OMG I LOVE this stuff! Great genius arguments!

[@markhughes7927]

Sowell & Friedman 1 - Jay and Piven 0

[@chrisyo4461]

God damn! I love these debates. I love hearing Smart people talk and wrestle with other opposing facts and come up with rebuttals....i should have become a lawyer

[@eldexxo]

So you're at a party explaining to plebs the benefits of socialized economies, when these two walk in the room! What do you do ?!

[@padywac1970]

Run and hide!

[@mecobio2]

Milton was right; he predicted the end of the junta in Chile due to capitalism and free economy and that was it happened. The free economy in Chile saw the junta as a problem at the end and got rid of it. On the other hand, under communism it is hard as there is no free economy to get rid of the dictators. Communists know that and that's why communits get rid of free economy

[@MrLouiebooie1]

Didn't the military dictatorship voluntarily turn over the economy to the people? I believe they were open to modernizing or reforming the failing economy and allowed capitalist reforms.

[@SaulOhio]

lrj The people demanded it. Pinochet, RELUCTANTLY, relinquished power before he thought Chile was ready for it. Fortunately, the people were more right than he was.

[@ivancampbell8123]

Only in Chile what about the other nations what about :Brazil ( largest economic grown in South and Central America), Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Costa Rica, Panama.

[@johncarey3374]

Milts face at 1:53 lol. He looks real worried 😂

[@IskalkaQuest2010]

Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell show themselves to be able to analyze the issues on a greater variety of levels of abstraction and concretization, taking into account the subtleties of human action and the variations of governing bodies and economics. If one cannot do that, one is limited in one's ability to analyze accurately.

[@mixmastermeeks]

She lost when she couldn't name one society that was relatively free and didn't have capitalism as the predominant economic philosophy. Instead since she couldn't answer the question she just tried to cheap shot Dr. Friedman about Chili.

[@ThomasPurcell]

A graduate with a degree in Bitter Woman Studies

[@jeandidierly4536]

lool

[@danweaver4304]

LOL! BWS degree, chuckled for two whole minutes. Still smiling - thank you!

[@thebullybuffalo]

Geez people were so much more well spoken and polite back then

[@DeadAbeVigoda]

And they could speak without a constant barrage of F words.

[@intervestcom8054]

Freeedom is the antidote to tyrany

[@danielu.4957]

That's why is in present times is the same as capitalism is the antidote to socialism

[@candyhosch7158]

Inter Vest Com Socialists: “But I wanna be a slave again, let govmint take care of me.” Piven: “Yes! And I shall be your most wise and beneficent queen.” She even looks a bit like Cruella DeVille don’t you think? Obnoxious bitch!

[@louiscypher7090]

where's today's Milton Friedman?

[@fredpearson5204]

Thomas Sowell.

[@evaadams4243]

There's Thomas Sowell.

[@Axeltheprofessor]

Jordan Peterson

[@candyhosch7158]

Louis Cypher And Walter Williams.

[@simonboland]

Incredible to see Thomas Sowell @3:30 and similar Milton Friedman soon after raise the distinction between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome way back then. This is the same stuff Jordan Peterson has hammered on about in various debates in recent times with numerous inept people who don't grasp the concept.

[@beng4151]

"A very small amount of intellectuals are stirring." That's how most of the idiotic "issues" today are brought up.

[@KhalilMGebara]

I dreamed it more than once: Sowell using his left hand to smack Piven upside the head.

[@daveBit15]

A great thinker, with a unique combination of honesty, intelligence and common sense.

[@dkt80]

Wow, Thomas Sowell was good here. He's such a clear thinker, and the only one who didn't muddy the waters IMO.

[@MovieCompoundBoat]

This man...is a goddamn genius.

[@Camia-nb2zy]

Just listen to their voices. When Friedman and Sowell talk it’s at a normal speaking level. When Piven speaks she is either shrieking or about to yell. The other guy Peter something seems to speak in a raised voice but he could just be a loud talker.

[@rayking3489]

Thomas Sowell is a genius, he called all of this ages ago 😂

[@elharbingero]

Peter Jay did quite well for himself, making sure his point was responded to. Kudos to him. No kudos to Piven for trying to play the 'gotcha' card with Chile.

[@docbrandy915]

I appreciate the differentiation between equality of opportunity and equity of results.

[@PingOnThis]

Well, the truth is that we did not begin in liberty, but with every step we have taken toward liberty, we have achieved greater prosperity for everyone. Every step away from liberty has likewise reduced prosperity for everyone. America hasn't always lived up to its ideals, because it created the ideals so that it could strive toward greatness. It didn't create ideals that it had already achieved.

[@TheLoyalOfficer]

@juscurious Bravo! Well said. These people do far more damage than one might think.

[@rintintinification]

so awesome.

[@Thinklikemeornot]

Gentleman, have a conversation. This is how it's done.

[@soaringscott5635]

I could listen to this man talk for hours at a time.

[@bradjbourgeois73]

Thanks!

[@semperparatus3685]

Where are you Milton? We need your integrity and intelligence today.

[@candyhosch7158]

Tablet One He may be gone, but his books will live on.

[@eduardoelgueta-goycoolea2500]

I would like to watch the continuation of this clip, does anyone know where is it available?

[@christopheradderley6902]

@dkswede Spot on comment. Your sentiment is widely felt!

[@impasse0124]

I was really getting into this segment when the video finished. Where is the rest of it?

[@freetochoosenetwork]

You can watch the entire Free To Choose 1980 series here: www.freetochoose.tv/broadcasts/ftc80.php

[@SuperGuitarman69]

@gasmaskinfidel Exactly. Milton was one of the brightest men in history. Piven is an ideologue. I wish Thomas or Milton would point that out. She has no business discussing these issues. To have her way? After the first 5 years of her idea of the perfect society requires walls and tower guards.

[@andrewcruz8543]

Well now we're debating absolute equality (face palm)

[@Golgafrinchamdent]

Would like very much to find the rest of this debate.

[@johncassles7481]

It would be nice if we had a complete program. Why are these programs chopped up or cut short.

[@astroboomboy]

I think Friedman is the person that made me start thinking, rather than reading and spewing out what I had read as arguments. I have been surrounded by middle class leftists all my life, and although I know they have the best intentions, it seems to me that their thinking is more about being in line with rhetoric rather than considering the consequences of their thoughts. When I started reading Friedman, Smith, Rand, Sowell, Mises, etc., I even lost a few friends.

[@nonjusticiable]

Friedman: Name me one free society that was not predominately capitalist? Piven: (Ignores challenge, unsuccessfully attempts to blame Chilean repression on Friedman)

[@mahamadoudiallo589]

Man, now I see the mess we are in today was architected since the 80s.