How H-Growlithe Broke Little Cup

[@liylaliyla]

little cup ubers about to pop off

[@playboithecreator8778]

Type: null banned to little cup ag

[@Lichtkrieger13]

LC Ubers is not a fun meta, at least it wasn't in Sword/Shield. Haven't played it since

[@polavux]

@@playboithecreator8778 Type null isn't allowed in any little cup format because it's impossible to obtain one at level 5, which would presumably still be a requirement even in a hypothetical lc anything goes

[@jules2438]

Lc ubers was great in sword and shield imo, very hectic but also surprisingly fair and controllable

[@Kamirasu]

*BIG CUP*

[@Nmoment-uv6jc]

Mienfoo was angry that he could not be in paldea, so he sent growlithe to destroy the tier in his name

[@victory8928]

Meinfoo ,queen of lc, really been quiet rn.

[@altariamotives16]

Mienfoo's pet dog

[@ultimapower6950]

Why would a mon get angry about not being in the distortion world?

[@jamesbackstar8285]

Lol

[@jerry3115]

In gen 8, cherubi is lcubers. Not because it's too powerful, but because sun teams were too powerful and chlorophyll got banned, which is poor cherubi's only possible ability

[@JoeKell365]

i feel like there should have been a Cherubi exception to the Chlorophyll ban, since Cherubi isn't a very strong Pokemon, even with sun support

[@aquatazer]

That’s crazy that it never got like Leaf Guard or something mid like that.

[@aaleven4728]

@@JoeKell365 That was the second time Cherubi got banned. Earlier in Gen 8 it was banned by itself due to how overwhelming Chlorophyll + Weather Ball was, it's not a bad sun pokemon, it's just that there are better options. if they were banned from LC then cherubi would just take their place

[@longingsoul1]

@@JoeKell365 Would that make it a complex ban? Something that Smogon doesn't generally like doing? I'm not sure what the rules are for that.

[@borby4584]

That’s what Big Stall WANTS you to think! Big Stall fears the Cherubi overlords

[@butteredsalmonella]

The lack of Onix, Tyrunt and Mienfoo was another big boon to Growlithe and why it was freely let to spam its moves.

[@RJPS-jd6rw]

well h-growlithe still gets close combat to beat onix and tyrunt

[@ultimaterecoil1136]

@@RJPS-jd6rwah yes that’s totally a normal decision when a rock ground type that outspeeds and ohkos you comes in on a resisted stab move is to try to use close combat. If onix was around hiusi dog would be switching out every time it came in and would need to be paired with things that do particularly good vs onix.

[@thegodofallakira6349]

Eh, use the eviolite set and run cc in the fourth move slot, no real difference

[@butteredsalmonella]

​​​@@thegodofallakira6349 Onix outspeeds, survives Close Combat and turns Growlithe into set-up fodder... easily activates Weak Armor which is dangerous.

[@thegodofallakira6349]

@@butteredsalmonella Yeah it lives but it goes down to being one shot by any good priority move, also even if it outspeeds onix doesnt have amazing damage output (I'm sure it would do at least 70-80 on the hit but not more then that without a weird build), and then you would be able to pivot around it and then kill it easily, growlithe sweeps after. If you need 1 mon to be at full hp to barely beat 1 mon that beats all 5 other mons, its not a real method to beat it.

[@supernova9014]

It's interesting how much mileage a few changes make. We've technically had Rock Head + Head Smash in LC since Gen 4 with Aron, who has comparable attack to Growlithe (70 v. 75). Yet the few key upgrades of Flame Charge to boost speed, a better offensive STAB combo in fire/rock, and Terastallization gave it all the tools it needs to shape the meta.

[@realhumanbeing3599]

and onyx 🥲

[@des4929]

@@realhumanbeing3599doesn't it have the attack stat of oddish or something

[@realhumanbeing3599]

@@des4929 yeah... but it gets dragon dance i guess

[@Pudcup]

​@realhumanbeing3599 nope, it has a HUGE defense stat of 120. That's like fighting a toddler with a titanium cube.

[@TaLeng2023]

I wish there's a Rock type Flame Charge.

[@totalphantasm]

I always knew that VGC had a much wider “viable” pool… I didn’t consider that “you can just not use your bad pokemon if they don’t have their niche” was the reason. That’s very cool.

[@MouldMadeMind]

It's one reason, other would be that there are much more niches.

[@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917]

I'm just annoyed that Rabsca doesn't have a niche. That Pokemon just feels like it should be able to do something well, but I never see anyone use it and I've been struggling to find something fun to do with it. The problem is that it feels like a second-stage Pokemon instead of an actual Pokemon, it feels unfinished.

[@sancheetb]

​@@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917I think the problem is the Mon is more of a lose less Pokémon that doesn't do much when you're winning

[@Endershock1678]

@@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917 Rabsca actually does more or less see usage. Wolfey has ran into more than one in competitive, and ran into a good handful in latter. It's used in Trick Room teams as a backup plan. It's main issue is it's usually the Trick Room setting lead, and if your opponent leads with Mons that are bad for the ones in the back, you more often than not have to sac it in order to set up trick room and not lose even more in the process, so its main role doesn't synergize with what makes it unique. As such, you're way better off going for more reliable setters like Armarouge and Indeedee, who can set up trick room with follow me then deal massive damage or expanding force, or Farigaraf to play around Fake Out.

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

@@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917MoxieBoosted did a fun theme with both annihilape and veluza spamming final gambit, and rabsca reviving them under trick room. Kingambit's supreme overlord counts a twice dead annihilape as 2 fallen pokemons, so you can consustently get to 4 boosts

[@Lykrast]

Really appreciate the little box that show the moves/abilities, especially for someone like me who doesn't really know them, so huge thanks!

[@PokeMasrerJ]

Didn't expect to see you here lol.

[@Lykrast]

@@PokeMasrerJ Well where would you expect to see me then?

[@PokeMasrerJ]

@@Lykrast in something either Minecraft related or adjacent

[@hiimemily]

For those who are wondering, the strongest Pokémon in LC Ubers is probably either form of Sneasel. 21 Speed with a neutral nature lets it outspeed everything outside of Scyther (a positive nature puts it at 23, outspeeding Scyther!), and strong STAB (whether it's Dark/Ice or Poison/Fighting) with good coverage moves makes it an absolute powerhouse. It can't really take a hit, but it hits hard enough that it barely matters.

[@azeria1]

One day mienfoo will return to his top spot

[@unclear.justice]

how is scyther not lcag

[@waitingfortheequinnox]

@@unclear.justicepowercreep, probably

[@EmiliaHoarfrost]

I don't know if there are still any terrain setters in LC but with a seed+acrobatics+unburden either Sneasel GOOBS

[@crimsonDestroyer]

Aren't both Sneasels banned?

[@dandyjeloo4929]

ouppy too filled with good dog power for little cup

[@PokeMaster22222]

1:48 Well, "without repercussion", except for the 20% Head Smash miss rate. Just as accurate as Stone Miss - er, I mean Stone Edge.

[@iss2075]

Also, Growlithhe has base stats like Pidgeotto, rather than like Pidgey. I think it's important to mention that, because if it had base stats like Pidgey or Slugma, obviously it would not be banned.

[@Xantrahx]

I dont know if H-Growlithe gets it as well, but the fact that H-Arcanine gets Wild Charge as well basically answers all of its checks except ground (which you normally have tera grass for) if they can get it off safely. I've been running Head Smash/Wild Charge/Flare Blitz/Protect in VGC with an expert belt and I'm not gonna lie, its quite fun to use. might even slot in tera blast, not too sure yet

[@Jai-xv5gz]

i wish wild charge was a good move. 0 reason for it to have 90bp, except to make volt tackle feel more special

[@JenniferA499]

A video on the Swirlix LC ban in gen 6 would be cool, I remember being so surprised learning about it since Slurpuff was so bad before getting Drain Punch

[@kyallon1213]

Not technically little cup but magnemite being banned in NFE when it’s the only 1st stage of a 3 stage evolution line to be banned is kind of interesting

[@pedroide23000]

i assume it was banned because of magnet pull, right?

[@shirshobanerjee7751]

Isn’t gastly NU?

[@des4929]

@@shirshobanerjee7751yes and as someone who played pu while it was there it was really good

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

​@@shirshobanerjee7751yes but being in another tier doesn't exclude a mon from being in lc. Lc exists outside of regular tiers.

[@indiradevi8136]

​@@shirshobanerjee7751gastly is Zu. It's haunter that's NU. Oh and misdreavus is the best mon in pu.

[@mr.lonkman4644]

I remeber talking to my friends back in gen 8 about this being atleast pretty good in LC mainly from the offensive potential of the typing with a scarf. We also held a hisui LC tournament within our friend group and this mon with and offense team ended up winning that too. Then Game Freak gave it Rock Head Head Smash.

[@crystalqueen9711]

No wonder it became the Lord of the Isles

[@GravityIsFalling]

I think another reason is that level 5 mons are meant to be using shit like ember and rock throw Not fire blast and head smash lol

[@EmiliaHoarfrost]

Also the fact is that damage is rounded up at level 5 compared to level 100, so that would provide reason why H-Growlithe dominates whereas H-Arcanine doesn't completely.

[@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917]

I feel like, on paper, Hisuian Arcanine is a ridiculously good wall breaker capable of keeping bulky threats in check. But, in practice, that just isn't the case because of the stats. It's a little too weak, not very bulky, and just a little too slow to do much.

[@drunyon214]

the video already mentioned that

[@MsTerkup]

​@@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917also four times weak to ground, which is never a good thing

[@thsand5032]

Something else that is worth mentioning is that because of how the stats of a pokemon are calculated, base stats don't matter nearly as much at level 5 as they do at level 100. Take for instance vullaby vs axew. Vullaby has 55 base attack vs Axew's 87 : it's almost 60% more. So Axew should be 60% stronger, right ? Nope. Not even close. When fully EV invested, vullaby has 15 attack while axew has 18. That's a 20% difference. But the difference in the power of moves is still the same, so if you don't want to use outrage with axew, you'll use dragon claw, and brave bird is 50% stronger than dragon claw. This means that what matters in LC is mostly : - Speed : the way speed tiers work stays mostly unchanged, although ties are much more common - Moveset : Since base stats are less relevant, a good support moveset is all the more valuable, and high-powered moves are incredibly important if you want to hit hard. - Typing & ability : These are other ways you'll tank hits / hit harder : resist or be immune to things / have a good offensive or defensive ability / have good stabs. This explains why mons with lackluster to abysmal stats like Nymble, Shroodle, or Wingull can still succeed, why sticky web is much more viable (setters are bound to be less terrible somehow), or why some mons with very decent to very good stats like Axew can still fall short.

[@yommmrr]

These are the videos that made me love your channel. Also your nuzlockes. You're still so underrated imo

[@kirby-magolor]

1:06 this aged like butter (hisuian arcanine just took his fourth regional event)

[@PokeMaster22222]

The ONE tier where DUNSPARCE is overpowered - nice!

[@transrightsbaybee]

hell ya i love little cup videos not enough lc videos on youtube

[@pierfrancescocosta6336]

I'm glad that one of my favorite Pokémon ever has finally reached his full potential! I didn't expect this, though... : D

[@sagacious03]

Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!

[@liamm1945]

I’m happy my boy is doing so well, I love him

[@akechitg1143]

I’ve missed these little cup videos!

[@des4929]

I just realized barboach resists both of Hgowlithes STABs and gets dragon dance so it can outspeed I've been using a rain team for an eternity so I didn't have to many issues with Hgrowlithe though it did sweep me a few times because Hgrowlithe

[@Mr.M3447]

Unrelated but who else wants a baby Scyther just because

[@TobeyFairre7861]

Heckin love Little Cup

[@AshBlossomWorshiper]

Loving the new mic

[@davidshatto7604]

I hope mienfoo comes back because LC tier centered around him is just so much more fun and playable imo

[@CancerGaming_]

"smog-on"

[@theboostedbaboon4586]

Yeah I'd love more videos like this on other banned lc mons

[@CuriousLumenwood]

I always love watching this channel because I don’t like Smogon Singles and hearing about all of the stuff they ban is so funny to me

[@Poopoocachoo]

I always wanted a LC format where they all could be level 100

[@immagns]

SMOG-ON, NOT SMO-GON, FREEZAI PART OF THE REALS

[@josephguzington]

Random thought but great tusk feels like a mon that should have a 4x weakness but doesn't, and it really shows

[@midnightemerald]

tbf its weakness to defensive birds really shows

[@It-Will-All-Be-Okay-I-Promise]

It’s insanely low Spdef makes up for this, I’d think. Neutral moves like make it rain, Draco meteor and fire blast off of offensive special attackers can just kill tusk instantly, and super effective special moves can kill or really hurt tusk even without investment from the attacker. Every special attacker in the tier can threaten it with big damage and make it hard for tusk to come in on them, even defensive ones like glowking, Garchomp (uses Draco for tusk) and pex.

[@irakyl]

What a coincidence, just one hour ago I rewatched your tournament run of last year's LC open, and started looking into sv lc because I knew nothing about it. I had no idea berry juice was removed, for example. In terms of bans, I would like you to talk something that caught my eye when I typed /tier lc: apparently there's a complex ban on tinkatink + knock off, which is crazy to me. Why not just ban tinkatink, or why not complex ban Hgrowlithe + head smash? I'm also very interested in seeing a video about the changes from ss lc to sv lc, I'm seeing for example that all weather is shit and that (H) zorua, which used to be shit, is good. I'm guessing that no ferroseed also makes shellder a much better shell smasher. It also seems like there's no great abra replacement, since the fast special attackers aren't as strong and the strong ones aren't as fast.

[@Greedy_eb]

LC main here, the reason for Tinkatink's complex ban of Knock Off is because it was never supposed to have the move in the first place, as due to the species being female only and apparently there isn't anything it can breed with in the games to inherit Knock Off as an Egg move. This was only discovered months later by a user named TheMantyke, and they made an informative post on the Smogon forums if you are interested in an in-depth explanation. There are other Egg moves also need to get removed from Tinkatink's moveset such as Rock Smash, Brutal Swing, and Skitter Smack, but because they are not used competitively and the programming hasn't been done to implement it, Tinkatink can still use them at the time of this message.

[@RadiativeChester]

Yet another time Smogon is inconsistent. If anything, Tinkatink should be banned as a whole, like Houndstone was in OU. Or rather, the opposite: Last Respects being banned instead of Houndstone, since the excuse was to avoid the complex ban LC just did

[@danielhale1]

Growlith is a good doggo. He deserves a vacation!

[@ronnieketchum1241]

Rock is one of the best offensive type. And Head Smash is too strong with Rock Head.

[@wolfherojohnson2766]

I friggen CALLED it! I knew for certain that H-Growlithe would get banned considering its a mini H-Arcanine

[@baldrian22]

couple of other banned mons from lc (not avilable in gen 9 atm) is porygon and yanma. there is some moves that is automaticly banned to, those moves is sonic boom and dragon rage (and any moves that works the same that i might have forgothen about) because of the set damage they do. sonic boom is 20 if i remember correctly while dragon rage is 40. sonic bomb could kill the majority of mons, while dragon rage can kill any mon at lvl 5 that is not a fairy type. i think there is a ghost type move that works the same unless the move got removed in gen 8.

[@cortster12]

Little cup is so adorable.

[@tysondennis1016]

Gen 9 gonna have its own LCU (Little Cup Ubers) tier.

[@bengoodwin2141]

Seeing how H-arcanine does in UU, it's no surprise

[@hsqqq]

Smawgon

[@p0kem0nlvl1]

Little cup when there's new pokemon: *BAN*

[@kwayke9]

Me when a 150 bp stab move off of 75 attack is too much for level 5 mons (it hits as hard as Tinkaton)

[@SergeantQuagsire]

Where there's a woop, there's a way.

[@weedandwater]

I fucking love your content.

[@skeletonskeleton9010]

"Smoggon"

[@JDizzle_98]

A format ive wondered about it how would a format where ANY Pokemon available at level 5 is legal. So you'd have stuff like Level 5 Palkia, Tauros and Snorlax with level 5 first stage Pokemon. Since level 5 mons have pretty low stats it shouldn't be that much different from regular LC

[@hangfire5944]

clueless

[@donutthepop5297]

It would literally just be ubers but tanky Pokémon are worse

[@moblinmajorgeneral]

What about Johtonian Wooper?

[@Thund3rDrag0n12]

Tera Grass Tera Blast goes brrr

[@moblinmajorgeneral]

@@Thund3rDrag0n12 That's a very specific counter that's only available on the less popular variant of H-Growlithe

[@irakyl]

@@moblinmajorgeneral and Wooper is a very specific counter that would be bad to put on your team in every match where you're not facing H-Growlithe, and it would be silly to suggest that everyone should run a bad mon just so they don't lose to the OP mon.

[@raindown6702]

The way damage calc works at level 5 just makes high bp moves like stab headsmash pretty ridiculous, that’s also the main reason why stall will probably never be good in LC

[@soul-dew5547]

duraludon in little cup😨

[@hnglbanana]

this is really fascinating stuff, and i'm still curious about some other things. are there no viable priority moves to take care of growlithe (aqua jet springs instantly to mind)? and have there not been any notable rock head users in lc before now (and if so, why)?

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Yes Aqua Jet would take it out, but aside from not being widely distributed and the user needing to actually get in, the Growlithe player can always switch out and abuse Aqua Jet's low power for that. Also Onix and Aron had Rock Head + Head Smash before but Aron is too slow and Onix just overall has bad stats and horrible attack.

[@hnglbanana]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 i see! that's super interesting, thanks for replying!

[@Endless_Titan]

This vid makes me realize that Pokemon Showdown is so much more visually clean and effective than the 3d vanilla games

[@KindaKaon]

Retier my buoy diggs its been a while since the SVQLC test and I really, really want to run multi-memento setup sweeper sets again

[@originalcharacter7598]

Great vid freezai, atb for worlds, also I was wondering if you were Indian, would be a really cool if we actually had an Indian world champ maybe then nintendo would pay attention to India like they don't even release the consoles here but an audience is there ik more ppl who own switches which requires you to buy it from a foreign country than ps5 and you can easily get ps5's now

[@pierfrancescocosta6336]

I think he's actually American of Indian descent, but yes, seeing him make it would be amazing!

[@trxxblx-wxs-hxrx]

I’m using Growlithe in my BW2 run w the assistance of a support Arcanine (Growlithe+Intim w helping hand/Odeur Sleuth/heatwave/outrage w the Dragon Gem/Draco plate) and it’s pretty much the star of my battle subway/PWT. It’s set it to bounce of mons that lack in defense and since my team pretty takes neutral to ghost and ghost toes hit all my mons kinda hard for lack of Sp.Def and odeur sleuth is for either a mon to get in and retaliate after growlithe goes down/ or hit ghost on the def aka there weak side w fighting types :D good BOY!

[@jules2438]

I will say that growlithe was not necessarily broken, but so restraining in the builder that it needed to be rid of

[@thehuman2cs715]

Love myself some little cup

[@brooksyang5834]

next video on the list of lc ubers

[@gufishanemometer6450]

are you gonna cover the freedom cup finals?

[@retroBoomin98]

No aqua jet meta?

[@venabre]

Dunsparce banned at anything Imagine that

[@francescognerre2408]

and at the end of the day, grwolithe-h was not as opressive as girafarig, yet it got banned in substantially less time

[@Mustache99]

head smash is even stronger with tera rock since the boost 2 times

[@cideogameguy515]

he already mentioned that

[@Mustache99]

@@cideogameguy515 ah ok my mistake

[@deansullivan4179]

I did damage calcs and, with proper stats and setup, jhotonian wooper lives two hits and kos in response

[@alandragon3897]

Yay the baby

[@3X0T1CTheSphealEnjoyer]

Didn't Murkrow find use in higher tier games a while back?

[@MouldMadeMind]

In vgc, because of prankster.

[@stealthy9156]

People loved to claim it checked magearna because hmm yes a nfe dark type useless in any other scenario checking a legendary fairy type exactly once with focus Sash and without rocks up makes it perfectly manageable, and its not like it gets ohkod with rocks up regardless of item and EV even with magearna having 0 spA investment

[@Nebesus]

Damn no adaptability corphish? Sucks to suck lmao.

[@rayes119]

What’s the background music?

[@pokebladers1002]

Growl light was too broken fr

[@JetsFusion95]

man said smog-on

[@SmugLookingBarrel]

My question is why is Gothita not banned, if it has Shadow tag, trick, and access to tera. Surely it can also beat any pokemon the same way diglett can

[@CMSonYT]

But you can use it right now on 350 cup! Head Smash! With double stats!

[@lemonadogirl4082]

I'm kind of surprised that Arcanine isn't a little higher in OU proper. Tusk shuts it down 1v1, but without any means of recovery, Tusk can't switch in against it too many times, especially if the Arcanine player is good at calling switches and can nail it with a Flare Blitz or two before switching out. I guess the main problem is that rocks are too hard to remove for Arc to be hitting the field enough to make that matter. Just another reason to hate the Golden Fucker.

[@jozimastar95]

One day lapras would be banned in lc, also isint aqua jet an opvius ohko?

[@jake9107]

terra fire/rock takes away the 4x weakness

[@MasterMechasonic]

Duraludon now that has an evo it would the gen1 Mewtwo of the litle cup XD

[@iuxbaesuzystan]

There should be a LC ubers tier on showdown.

[@M.2000-v2g]

Is there no pokemon with aqua jet in lc??

[@EmersonCRVG]

i think arcanine problem is that ou has all the tools to stop it, however in vgc and uu it is still very good

[@TheNingag]

smawgon

[@notdwaddler2013]

So Duraludon's gonna get banned soon too, yeah?

[@lowkeylokei]

I wish I had people to play LC on cart with man.!

[@entothechesnautknight1762]

It is worth noting that though Hisuian Arcanine sucks in OU, its arguably the best pokemon in UU right now.

[@Pika250]

Is Stantler eligible? If no, it's because Wyrdeer is inaccessible without Legends Arceus. If yes, then shouldn't it have had the same treatment as Dunsparce and Girafarig? I get why those guys are Uber, especially Serene Grace Dunsparce. Stantler would be similar.

[@tbolt__]

Stantler can't evolve in Scarlet/Violet, so it isn't treated as a LC-eligible Pokemon

[@Ultra289]

But does this format exist on official games?

[@brianchan8]

It’s basically a set of rule not to use Pokémon that are banned.

[@jamessudlow]

Does it matter?

[@Doge-zb7ku]

Why does that matter

[@marioipod]

What about Cosmog, would it end up in LC Ubers?!

[@Raizekusu]

Its stats are atrocious even by LC standards and its movepool is splash and teleport, make of that what you will

[@frozenoutsideoctober818]

Cosmog can't do shit lmao

[@12jswilson]

Why is Howlithe OP in LC but Harcanine isn't OP in OU? There is no Great Tusk in LC. Next question.

[@hucklebucklin]

😢we need Little Tusk

[@dataexpunged4784]

​@@hucklebucklinGood Tusk finna go crazy when the DLC drops

[@ronnieketchum1241]

I was thinking. Why not Aqua Jet?

[@grunkleg.2934]

Switching your Aqua Jet user in isn't really an option against such a beefy attack. Calyrex-Shadow isn't suddenly manageable because it fears Sucker Punch. Not to mention you can just Tera out of a bad type matchup

[@steveh.8769]

people did run that, but its easy to either tera or just switch into a resist so it didn't help that much. Also, gothita could trap the aqua jet users since it has thunderbolt.

[@BladeRabbit]

tera grass

[@chubbyman2564]

can someone explain why LC use level 5 instead of 50 or 100? im just curious

[@FreezaiPokemon]

historical reasons mainly, it was like that in the original official Pokemon Stadium 2 rules

[@Synoh]

Hisuian Arcanine is GOOD in ou???????

[@RalorPenwat]

Shouldn't water starters destroy this thing? Like sure no quad weakness because always terra, but if it's scarfed a sash lets you live it and you should be faster if it's eviolite so you could go offensive choice item or something idk

[@Potna_n3m]

Is there no LC water ground type?

[@AI-DreigonGPT]

Barboach

[@LeonardoDrakulic]

can’t wait for duralodon to destroy theese babies 😂

[@nomatyx5789]

Sorry, Zamazenta???????? in OU?

[@Doge-zb7ku]

Yeah

[@MushokuShiro]

Great Tusk gets outsped and 2hko'd by Tera Fire Flare Blitz. Idk what you talking about