French Grip Drum Finger Technique - James Payne

[@budokaiboy]

I was telling my girlfriend, you're like Bruce Lee. You've analyzed a system and stripped it down to its physiological and physics based components. All of your videos are so detailed and explained so well that I have to agree with everyone else. These are the best drumming instructional videos on YT. Thank you!!!!

[@TheHouseofKushTV]

Another mind blowing lesson, the emphasis on the initial strike being its own thing before settling into finer movements is changing the game for me, 25 years and I'm stepping backwards for a while but not feeling the weight of the stick, combined with eliminating tension in the thumb and wrist, has done wonders for my groove. Thank you for taking the time James, you're helping a lot of people out here.

[@JamesPayneDrums]

I am so glad to hear this! You're very welcome and I hope my videos will continue to help!

[@tepikea1671]

Just what I needed! I'm a beginner and your instruction is super thorough, simple and helpul. Thanks from Argentina!

[@flyranton]

The best i've seen about french grip.

[@balrogDCLXVI]

Thank you James, the thumb before index finger is really key here, I just realized I wasn't holding the stick with my left hand like that. Your other advices are also extremely helpful and your analytical approach is just stunning!

[@bernieleinz5110]

Like others before me, using the thumb as a lever as opposed to being part of a fulcrum was my "aha!" moment. Enabling the use of 4 fingers instead of only 3 is worth spending the time to relearn this the correct way. I'll gladly take a step back today for the benefit of knocking down barriers tomorrow. I have also observed that the lever approach makes it MUCH easier to keep the wrist stationary. Thanks JP.

[@zibek02]

Great video, the best i've seen about french grip. Thank you, Grand Elf!

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Grand Elf? lol glad you liked the video tho

[@SLASHFANG]

Last night I learned about this. Today I practiced it for an hour for the first time and already feel and insane improvement in my speed. I’m very thankful!

[@littlebear2477]

Hi James I love how you have taken the time to learn the majority of techniques Thus choosing what works best for you and obviously makes you an amazing musician. Thankyou for your videos

[@isaacg3175]

I’ve been working hard on trying go faster or more accurate in playing, finding the American grip accidentally. This is so awesome to help with other grips and helps for other hand movements.

[@johnsin3843]

This was just an amazing lesson and I am not a drummer. This guy has me hooked on his great explanations. Great job.

[@Ranger1216]

Amazing lesson 15:40 on shows the final product. Accepting the rebound second part demo is absolutely excellent visual. Great lesson. Thanks

[@RCGC01]

Excellent excellent video. Thank you

[@emergentevolution2000]

The best teacher on KZbin for sure. Helped me a lot. He is honest and want to share every of his experiences about the techniques with us. Thanks a lot for all your great lessons dude!

[@JamesPayneDrums]

You're more than welcome buddy! Glad my videos help!

[@vincentsantarelli6915]

James your demos on Techniques have been helping me a lot.Thanks

[@alexg4284]

Brilliant video, thank you

[@sergiopauloliciojunior7475]

It´s so more natural the position of the thumb that you suggest, thank you for share so good information!

[@Cloud_Strife_19]

Great Stuff! Thank you

[@alioch89]

can you play this technique on a snare tuned very low without rebound ?

[@jonathansnowden439]

wheres your subscribers at bro? this is top grade teaching

[@Skhidnyaky]

15:50 - time where is shown the most interesting discovery for me about french grip. I didn't use to play french grip before, felt it something weak. But this idea helps to reach powerful and fast motion even starting practicing it.

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Yes, using the fingers in that way will give way more volume to the French Grip!

[@SuperTechnomancer]

@@JamesPayneDrums Hey James, I'm having issues understanding this part of the video. I cant seem to move my index finger without dropping the stick. My instinct is to keep my index finger in a fixed position and let the other three fingers move stick. So it seems I have a fulcrum on my index finger. Do you have any tips to fix this issue? Is this a bad technique?

[@ShakingMadDavid37]

@@SuperTechnomancer same problem here. Did you find a fix?

[@marichivilcoy]

Many thanks for a great video. I am having trouble keeping the stick : i) straight (it hits the pad in a different place each time :)); and ii) from sliding in my hand, it moves up and down constantly. Any tips on what I may be doing wrong ? :) Many thanks !

[@AlejandroMinnelli]

Very helpful! I'm a guitar player but lately I've been trying to teach myself to play the drums, french grip always felt very comfortable to me whenever I wanted to play a little faster but I wasn't sure if I was on the right track or not... now I know!Thanks!

[@ged287]

What are the brand and model of the heavy metal drum sticks… such a good idea to build finger strength….

[@LearsiMusic1]

best video on french grip

[@fildrums2836]

Thank you for this lecon it's very helpful for me !!

[@MCM686]

James thank you for sharing this technique and how to do do it properly. Thanks a million!!

[@JamesPayneDrums]

You are very welcome man!

[@stefancounts1391]

How do you keep your hand from sliding up the stick.

[@mikemike7345]

Yeah I like all that techniques especially finger and the Moeller technique

[@felixgarstka]

thank you so much for all your work, I really appreciate what you do; keep it up

[@JamesPayneDrums]

You're welcome Felix! I'm glad you like what I'm doing buddy!

[@felixgarstka]

James Payne you're a drum god and drumming is my passion 😁😊

[@meepmeep3874]

I have a lot of trouble with having my thumb in front of my index finger. I can operate with it a very small distance in front, but if I try to extend it as far as demonstrated I really can't do anything. I'm fairly new though, could just be a matter of adapting.

[@josephgizzi373]

This is a great video. I’ve watched this so many times. I’m still trying to master the finger technique. Still not sure how the index finger makes a squeezing motion like the 3 other fingers do tho

[@wilydingus]

Welp ive been doing it wrong haha. Thanks so much!! Great video

[@almadaestudios]

Thank u for the lesson!

[@JamesPayneDrums]

You're very welcome!

[@arasiah]

Totally awesome video. Thanks for taking the time to show us.

[@JamesPayneDrums]

You're very welcome! Glad you liked it!

[@jeremiahfingsheets]

Great video. Could you tell me specifically what sticks those heavier aluminum ones are?

[@1dkd1dkd]

James you've got it down solid! Perfect form and thorough delivery of the information and thanks for editting. These guys on here who don't edit kill me. :) lol

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Glad you liked the video and the informations man! :)

[@diocpst]

Great man!! Your videos helps me a lot. Thankss!!

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Super glad to hear that man!

[@ajandas4178]

ive been struggling to learn this technique...... as you said earlier to learn from the stronger limb ..... i am doing that too still trying to concentrate........ my muscles get easily tensed even in slow tempos on the weaker limb........ do you have any video materials which focuses on some particular motions and workout exercises..... so that i can atleast get a proper direction?

[@tojafato]

Thank you very much James Payne 🥁👌🎼

[@webber977]

excellent techniqe

[@PeX218]

Vital Remains

[@twelge15]

Also the whipping motion from the shoulder can reach these tempos. And you can get more power from singles with palms down American Grip which is between French & German. Check out Dennis Chambers, and Gary Novak on KZbin.

[@twelge15]

I finally got the [8th note] whipping motion going with the left shoulder. Now, I can finally do up tempo swing with the left hand on the ride. Seriously, it was an epiphany.

[@ingokolb6871]

thank you for that video!! it finally feels right when trying this technique

[@JamesPayneDrums]

You're very welcome, glad it helped!

[@twelge15]

I use both German or French grips. Depending on the situation. But you can end up with trigger finger using fingers too much. That's why I'm using Moeller technique more often.

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Yeah, I use different techniques based on what I'm doing, in this video I was talking about French grip in particular

[@twelge15]

James Payne Cool! I'm just bringing that up because I'm 52. I used to play singles thumbs up using fingers only for years. It started bothering me (trigger finger) using a computer mouse, etc. Constant repetitive motion with smaller mucles of the ring and pinky fingers on hard, cymbal surfaces can lead to tendon problems over time. Took me until I was 38.

[@twelge15]

Trad grip with brushes on purpose to become more proficient with trad.

[@twelge15]

Also, I switch between index & middle finger fulcrums. But mostly middle finger fulcrum because it builds up your ring & pinky strength nicely which is very important with any instrument.

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Thank you for sharing this! Good to know! I usually try to synchronize my body with all the instrument, so that I don't crash with the external forces that we have to deal with as drummers, but I work with them. But of course hitting a piece of wood against a piece of iron for 30 + years it's not a completely good thing for our body for sure. Will keep that info in mind, thank you!

[@agsgs3424]

Hello James. Thank you for your videos they are really good and very informative. I was hoping you could give some advice on a trouble I have when working my fingers. I can't sucessfuly alternate with my hands, for some reason my fingers don't let me make alternates. I can alternate for a brief moment but then if I keep the motion I start playing unison. Any exercises you might recommend to prevent this to happen?

[@JamesPayneDrums]

You can do an exercise where you alternate 1 bar of 8th notes with wrist motion and 1 bar of 16th notes with finger motion and then you slowly increase the bars of finger motions to 2, 3, 4 etc.... until 8 or even 16 bars so that you get slowly used of controlling it! Also, think of opening the fingers when you do this instead of closing them (if it makes sense)

[@jaakkot9661]

As a drummer with short fingers I find it impossible to have my thumb over index finger. I notice that you have quite long fingers which give a longer lever and thus more power.

[@littlebear2477]

Atleast you didn’t nearly cut your thumb off with a power saw now it’s a fused straight and is much shorter than my other one not to mention the lack of movement

[@steijnmuller7228]

Hey James, great video! I wonder however, where exactly does the stick rest on your fingers? It seems that when you do your arm-stroke, the stick is lays more inside the hand (closer to the palm), whereas when you pull the stick back again, it looks like the stick rests more on the joints/finger tips of the fingers. So does the stick move its resting point? Where exactly should the stick be placed? On the first joint/fingertips, the middle phalanx or the second joint? Where would I have most control as well as speed? Or doesn't it really matter and I am making a bigger deal out this then necessary? Haha

[@steijnmuller7228]

And does your stick rest on a different location on your fingers when you use German/American grip?

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Hi Steijn, if you'll put the stick in the first joint you will have more speed but it will take a little bit longer to get used to it since at first you will have less control. In the German grip instead, I keep the stick more on the second joint since I mainly focus on the rist motion there rather than the finger one! I have another video on the French grip that might help you out even more: kzbin.info/www/bejne/noPZloiBaN6ojq8

[@steijnmuller7228]

Hey James! Thanks for the quick reply! Okay yes that's exactly my problem, if I put the stick on the first joint I have more speed, but I have it on the second joint I will have more control sort of haha (depending on the grip). Do you have any tips on how to get more control (so that the stick won't move to left and right, it doesn't want to stay in the joint if you know what I mean). Maybe quarter notes, isolating each finger or something?

[@JamesPayneDrums]

I would say that if the stick is movng right and left, it can have something to do with the position of the hand more than anything else. Make sure that your hand and wrist are in a position that will allow the stick to bounce always straight and not oblique

[@ajandas4178]

james plz help ...... i find the french grip too hard to learn on the weaker side........ what do i have to do?

[@JamesPayneDrums]

It's very hard for me to give you a precise answer without seeing and knowing what happens exactly, but one thing you can do is compare your weak hand to your strong one, analizing every detail: grip, thumb position, position of the arm and wrist, how the rest of the fingers work etc... you have a teacher in you, which is your strong side, use it as much as you can!

[@ajandas4178]

James Payne although I can play relaxed now where I was tensed before do I have play a bit slower if it helps I don't know .... Ok I will try to upload a video question to your website and discuss each and every detail also I tried to play the heel up method for foot put I get tension in my hips

[@JamesPayneDrums]

I suggest you to start from a comfortable speed and slow it down from there. If you'll send a video it'll be way easier for me to give you exact instructions for sure!

[@ajandas4178]

James Payne ok thanks so much for the information

[@dios8256]

When using this technique (thumb further up the stick than the index finger) the stick slides up as I play. Anyone else get this?

[@JamesPayneDrums]

That usually is caused by the position of the hand. Make sure that the thumb is facing all the way up by rotating the wrist.

[@thedruminator6560]

James do you use the same technique in the toms??it is quite hard because of the low rebound

[@JamesPayneDrums]

I don't man, I use either german grip for long rolls or push pull for shorter rolls on toms and floor tom. The lack of rebound makes it too hard to use the French grip.

[@twelge15]

I grew up in NY. So, I was lucky & got to meet my drum heroes. Not the rock ones. But, I took one lesson with Dennis Chambers in 1991 at a Long Island Drum Ctr. for $40/hr. Met Weckl, Gadd, Cobham, Tony Williams, Bill Bruford. Chad Wackerman at gigs in Greenwich Village, mostly. Jonathan Mover. Anton Figg, Keith Carlock starting in 1997. Marvin Smitty Smith. Steve Smith, and so on. Check ALL these guys out on KZbin. Check out their technique and feel.

[@jaygee8566]

"Not take advantage of the rebound but to raise the stick on our own... so this is something we don't want to happen" ... "If we have to raise the stick each time, for each stroke, this will only make us work more" This is a gross oversimplification at best, and misinformation at worst. The placement of the thumb relative to the index finger in French grip is a trade-off. Specifically, a trade-off between downward force and upwards mobility. Regardless of where you place the thumb relative to the index, it will help with both. It's the magnitude that changes. Usually, the thumb should be somewhere near the index finger: Either at the same location or slightly above/below. More than a little below doesn't aid much in generating lift. More than a little above and the contribution of your lower digits quickly diminishes and overshadows any benefit from the index finger. This is because your hand forms a longer lever and your digits have further to travel. Smaller levers can be faster but require more effort, thus the combination of a short lever with a lot of hand development maximizes speed. There are exceptions depending on hand shape. You have long fingers, so it makes sense for you to place the thumb further forward if only for ergonomics. For someone with short fingers, it's the opposite. I disagree with almost everything you advocate regarding rebound and lifting the stick. In and of itself, being able to maximize rebound is a good thing, and so is maximizing the ability to lift the stick. You make the later out as something that's bad, which is totally backwards. You aren't always going to be playing on a high-rebound surface, and even when you are, rebound will only yield what you put into the prior stroke, meaning you still need to lift if you want to generate significant stick height after a low velocity note. Ideally, the fulcrum isn't static and immutable, but is living and breathing. The relative positions of the thumb and index finger, as well as the overall placement of the hand, can and should change dynamically to fit the situation. Preaching "one right way" is facile because there is no such thing. What is the proper instruction for French grip? Simple: Start with the thumb and index finger more or less opposite each other and experiment with the relative positioning. While your hands and playstyle are unique, keep in mind the advantages/disadvantages in the average context and compare that with your findings as you progress. To the extent you find different placements help with different contexts, emphasize a dynamic approach to placement.

[@twelge15]

You have great Speed & Power and Chops. You should learn ALL the techniques. Some techniques come from Jazz. Some Heavy Metal - Mike Mangini techniques. I've studied technique since 1986. Mostly hand, though. Only in the last 10yrs have I got the stick going straight up & down using the whole range (German - palms down all the way) to Billy Cobham, or John Bonham thumbs up all the way. Depending on the song/gig situation you can use the whole range. Each apporoach makes the feel a bit different. So, if you end up with physical issues when your old (some peoples bodies can handle repetative motion better than others) you can fall back on the least difficult technique.

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Absolutely, I have learned all the hands and feet techniques! You can check out more of my stuff on my websote too jamespaynedrums.com I've put a lot of other stuff there!

[@agsgs3424]

Thank you! I tried yesterday something similar and actually could alternate longer than before I guess it just takes time to develop. I'll keep your advice.

[@rickb1408]

James, you don't look like a Vital Remains kind of guy, but I see they are once again looking for a drummer.

[@JamesPayneDrums]

I played with them a few years ago already! I gave my try ;)

[@rickb1408]

I'm old and had never heard of them. I only looked them up because you mentioned you had played with them. The first Google search video I found was kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYKogmBuj6ZrsM0 and there you were. So it is just an odd coincidence that they really are looking for a drummer. Man, (keep in mind, I am old) that is crazy music. You are clearly an intelligent, thinking, sane and grounded guy. That music is just so far beyond me.

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Ahah, I totally get you man, thank you for the kind words!

[@franckcamus9166]

sorry to tell you that finger muscles have the same size than the wrist muscle... common finger flexor and extensor are based in the forearm (same things for wrist) the way to gain speed is much more the results of the kind of muscle fiber... you have fast and slow twich muscle and they are responsible of the contraction... and the Speed of muscle fiber not in any case about the size of the muscle. Just open an anatomical book and check the muscle in the forearm you'll find the muscle for wrist AND finger . That being said you are an incredible drummer!

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Hey man, thanx for the kind words! Maybe you mean they all have the support and are controlled from the forearm muscles? I never heard of wrist and fingers having the same size muscles to be honest, and I have opened several anatomical books, in fact, I don't think that the weight and amount of pressure a wrist can sustain is the same as one finger? Also, what I mean by the speed is based on the size of the part of the muscle, I mean the agility is based on the amount of mass that is moved: the more mass has to be moved the slower the motion will be, what's why using the entire arm is always going to be slower than using only the fingers. I see how that can be misunderstood by what you are underlining here, but yeah, I mean that the speed that a bigger muscle can have is not the same as the one of a smaller muscle because of the amount of weight that has to be moved, but what you say about the kind of muscle fiber is exact, that determines the speed of contraction, but your point would be more valid in a gym situation and not in this situation, where my goal is to give the less stress to the muscles as possible. I hope this makes more sense to you now!

[@franckcamus9166]

@@JamesPayneDrums Hi James thanks for your answer , wich muscles for finger control are you talking about? The majority of the muscle wich are controlling finger movement are based in the forearm!!! all the common extensors finger (carpi radialis brevis, carpi radialus longus, carpi ulnaris, extensor digitorum, extensor indicis and so on ... same thing for flexor digitorum the list is long... You are a reason on the point about the agility and the amount of mass moved and it's excatly my point regarding the différence between the speed of wrist and finger . they have the same muscle size but beacause fingers are lighter than wrist bone we are able to move finger faster . the point about drumming and gymnastic regarding the speed of contraction is the same because this is genetically predeterminated It's not depending on the activyty (except the load for recruiting nervous system and motor unit control cell I'm teaching anatomy and biomecanic in injury prevention training program for musician and top level olympics athlets for over 20 years (That my Job )so you point isn't misunderstood... Im' really curious to know where do you take you knowledge and if I can help you to know more about it will be a pleasure for me to discuss with you. If you have the time Take a look to the Frank Netter Atlas Human anatomy chapter 6 you 'll find all the details about finger and wrist muscle Best regards

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Exactly, my point is, since the fingers are lighter than the wrist, because there's less mass to move, then they are faster, and that's why I switch part of the body that I use based on the speed that I need. The smaller the part of the body involved is, the faster we are able to move it. It's put in a less complicated way of saying it, but that's the result you get! But thank you for specifying it and share your knowledge with us!

[@franckcamus9166]

@@JamesPayneDrums no problem to share my Knowledge and demisify the Human biomecanic! Drumming as top elite sport athletes is one of the most interesting activities to study biomecanic. It 's just a non common sense in drumming study that teacher have no idea about how the body is fonctionning but my master class are made for that. Keep your good work buddy!

[@mrnegronis]

You're very good at this. It is a good demonstration. However I wonder what would happen on a real drum kit with looser head tension. A rubber pad has excessive and unrealistic rebound. If the goal is to play on real drums, then working on a rubber pad may be a waste of time.

[@JamesPayneDrums]

The French grip is only good for surfaces with a lot of rebound, like Hi-Hat, Ride or snare drum/toms if the head has enough rebound. Practicing techniques and grips on the pad is good as a gym to develop them, but I agree that is surely different when you then apply them on the drums!

[@debbiehagan6224]

This is great stuff but misleading because there are no muscles in the fingers.

[@JulieTBak]

Do you know a Kyutie?!? ;)

[@JamesPayneDrums]

No, what's that?

[@jeezy4764]

Bro I’ll pay you $100 for a 1 hour lesson I live in the IE lol

[@JamesPayneDrums]

Ahah! I actually give lessons in North Hollywood!

[@TheCunnu12]

Don’t listen to this guy, use the grip you prefer and play. Doesn’t exist the best grip, the best is what fits on your hand the best