FRINGE cEDH, SECRET LAIRS, AND MORE! - PATREON SUBMITTED TOPICS

Dylan and Cam discuss multiple topics submitted my our Patrons, including Fringe and Pet decks in cEDH, the new Jurassic Park Secret Lairs, and the top 5 cards from the set Tempest in cEDH!
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[@damo9961]

You should do a fringe/outdated episode. Sidisi hermit druid + gitrog Prossh food chain + pitiless plunderer/chatterfang/cradle abuse Zur Brago stax or something

[@zeroisnine]

LMAO. I never thought in a million years you were going to take your secret lair complaints in this direction 😂😂😂

[@zaneearldufour]

IMO, a cEDH pro tour would blow up the format with new decks

[@Highwang]

I like the idea of going back to old sets and looking at the pieces that contributed to cEDH, if only cause there’s an antiquities box at my LGS that I wonder if it’ll ever be bought

[@dimitri13]

I was very confused about the Tempest block section. They asked about tempest *block* (Rath block: Tempest, Stronghold, Exodus). Lots of notable omissions including: Mox Diamond, Culling the Weak, Survival of the Fittest. And even some cards from Tempest that I think are better and more playable than Humility: Earthcraft, at least one Medallion, Scroll Rack, and even Blood Pet.

[@banderson5586]

I was confused as well. So many good cards from this block and specifically Tempest. When I was growing up and starting to get into MTG this was my favorite block, so I'm biased, but I really think the list provided in this video was not great.

[@JosueOnYT]

"And complaints that we have about these new secret lairs..." Me: Is it about the cards all being the wrong dinosaurs and such?! *Listens on.* YES! I think the arts and such are really cool (even the Indominus Rex frame itself is really good! But just poorly colored.), but they're on all the wrong dinosaurs. I genuinely just passed on buying them because it felt like a fumble. Also, there is a Spinosaurus in Jurassic Park 3. The first two Jurassic Worlds dealt with Hybrid Dinosaurs.

[@TheTarkovish]

I can't remember if I ever wrote to you guys but: I'm not an cedh player but I still watch all your vids and listen to all your podcast; 1) It makes me a better player to see the game in 'your' perspective 2)you're just great dudes

[@NewSchoolPOKERstrat]

Play cedh You cannot resist the dark side Surender Resistance is futile All roads lead to cedh 🤘😖🤘

[@anthonybuck4864]

I think if your commander is a stax piece or can easily find a stax piece should be considered as well

[@saltyseas416]

Find a stax piece? meaning tutors are now stax piece? Nope, but I agree that if your commander is one it should be called like one.

[@anthonybuck4864]

@@saltyseas416 I'm meaning things like GW Sisay that can tutor legends and other Commanders that can tutor Stax pieces like Oswald

[@GoldSabertooth]

Every time the PtW boys start discussing multiple Oppos it feels like the Pepe Silvia meme

[@tylerduncanson2661]

Notion Thief actually works a bit differently, because whichever replacement effect is chosen is still a card being drawn as not the first during draw step.

[@DonnieWest]

2 mana etali? Yep, busted. Except it's 1 mana and it's called Ragavan 😉

[@josephharty5048]

They need a secret layer of Lotus Petal but it is printed as a “Treasure”

[@SP-ik6cc]

Haha the Cam voice-over added in post, had me cracking up - "...the person who controls the [effected card] gets to choose". haha too good.

[@knightstranded3415]

I also agree that the secret lairs for dinos are a miss for me, if they would have linned up i for sure would have purchased

[@noahcarreiro2277]

One difference I’ve noticed between cEDH decks and “tEDH” decks are some decks aren’t really considered for tournaments because of the rules tournaments have in place. Some decks take longer to execute their gameplan like stax decks or extra turns decks, which in a tournament where there is a round clock, get punished for dragging the game out. Where as turbo decks like RogSi or Mid range decks like Tymna Kraum that can present wins faster are favoured more. I understand tournaments have clocks in place to keep the event moving but I think that’s a big limiter on people brewing more fringe deck

[@DerekCale]

Uh you guys remember that Mox Diamond was printed in stronghold within the tempest block right?

[@Pechko]

Love you guys and love your content. This video while off the typical flavor really hit a lot of notes that I find interesting and worthy of talking about. So never feel weird or bad about doing a Secret Lair review! We love to see it! Keep it up fellas, and I hope you all have a Happy Holidays :) Small Edit: The double Oppo Agent situation could be very relevant, if both Agent players are in different situations in terms of available resources! It's a political scenario but- say I'm tapped out- but I get to choose? I will let Cam search with his Agent BUT *only* if he agrees to find, reveal, AND use a removal spell that he has 1 mana open for (to use towards the player trying to tutor ofc)! Super rare interaction, but still possible!

[@therealax6]

Regarding those points about the rules, the rules aren't normally complex by themselves, but their interaction is. I personally love the rules, and how they build something so complex from rules that, individually, aren't necessarily complex themselves. (But then again, I'm also the kind of guy who likes reading technical specifications...) For instance, the Blood Moon plus Urza's Saga is a combination of rules that, by themselves, will probably seem completely obvious and reasonable to you (rule numbers in [brackets] so you can look up the actual rule text if you're curious): - If a saga is finished, it is sacrificed [714.4, 704.5s]. There's obviously a proper definition for what I'm abbreviating as "finished", but it's pretty much what you expect. - If a saga doesn't have any chapters, it's already finished [714.2d]. The formal definition of this involves a "final chapter number", but the concept is the same. - If an effect says that a permanent "is a Mountain", it loses all abilities and gains "{T}: Add {R}" [305.7]. This also means it loses all chapters, since chapters are abilities. The combination of these three rules is what makes Blood Moon kill Urza's Saga. If you look at each rule individually, you'll probably think that it makes complete sense and you wouldn't expect it to work any other way. But the combination of simple rules makes a very complex system. (By the way, if you want to learn more about complicated rule interactions, I'm happy to explain them! I'm not a judge, but I've been studying the rules for a long time and I probably have a better grasp on the technicalities than most players. Feel free to ask any questions.)

[@andrewwagner8939]

Remember all the neon cartoon monster shirts for metalcore bands in the early 2000s? That was the same dude who did the secret layers Dan Mumford. But totally agree with your take on the card choices; they could've used the Mosasaur from Jurassic World as Nezahal and that would've been sick

[@jcdb2582]

It’s weird that im building a dino casual deck and bought this secret lair and i barely gave a shit about the colors or dinos matching lol. I keep noticing as people bring it up but for some reason it doesn’t bother me at all

[@TheSpiritombsableye]

Nezahal is a type of Plesiosaur.

[@noahmurtha4036]

So in regards to “exploring the format” I see it constantly tbh. Granted a lot of folks I play with are brewers and are willing to try cards/decks that otherwise are batted aside. Myself included. One of my favorite decks has been a 3 year project in Livio/Thrasios and the deck is unique in what it does/how it wins. We all maintain the mandatory staples and such but trying new things is always something we attempt. Ngl, my new list is Francisco/Thrasios and DAMN! Oracle of Mul Daya (yes that casual card) is pure gas in that deck.

[@barronlucas8054]

Dylan and Cam do indeed share one brain 🧠 😂. Thanks for the podcast guys.

[@brackishwater8484]

haven't played in a tournament, but for my Local LGS cEDH pods, i've had a ton of success with Lonis Clone-pod, by turn 3 out values the table , wins via thassa or biovis on turn 3 or 4.

[@SteelDevilReal]

In Europe a lot of pet decks on tournaments

[@yoricktop8649]

I'll help you out and confirm that at 23:15 you guys were correct, the Notion Thief (NT) one wasnt entirely correct. With Dauthi/RIP you choose which one exiles the card and then the other will see that there is no longer a card going to the grave and therefore it will no longer try to apply its effect however with 3+ NTs this becomes relevant, if player A, B and C all have a NT and player A would draw a card, they choose, for example, player B's NT. At which point player B will now try to draw a card but 2 NT's will see that and player B can now choose either of the remaining 2 NTs whose controller then has to pick the last one. TLDR: with notion thief you decide who doesnt get the draw if there are 2 in play

[@TheGrifcannon22]

Last video of the year needs to be a top 10 favorite top 10 list.

[@Delarissa]

Urza's Saga with Blood Moon, Blood Moon only removes the land sub-type which is Urza's, it does not affect the Enchantment sub-type which is Saga. The Saga sub-type comes with rules baggage and any Saga with equal or more Lore counters than it has chapters gets sacrificed, seeing as Blood Moon removes all of the land's Chapter abilities it now has 1 or 2 lore counters and 0 Chapters which means it gets sacrificed.

[@rdumalaog]

The Indominus Rex Polyraptor vs Indominus Rex, Alpha is honestly what bothered me more about the Secret Lair, but the dinosaurs being swapped was not far off from getting under my skin when they showed the previews 🙃

[@Some_Context]

I'm gonig to need to keep that opposition agent interaction in mind, as there is some incredibly mean tech you can do with it. For example: Player one: Has an oppo Player two (you): has an oppo (beats out P1s) Player three: has a mystical tutor in hand Player four: is playing a game ending spell Convince player three to use mystical tutor so that you can go search for a free counterspell. Find Pact of negation and chose to allow player one's oppo's replacement effect take the card. Player one is forced into a position where they either pact the game winning spell or lose the game. Player one pacts, pays on their turn and does nothing due to having to tap out, you go to your turn with all shields down.

[@rings-cn1yn]

12:37 Couldn't disagree more, I love building the most, and yet your perspective is still fun to hear and talk about, it's a great aspect of the game that we can enjoy it for such different reasons.

[@janmelantu7490]

I think cEDH content creators (especially y’all and the Spike Feeders) are the biggest voices in creative cEDH deckbuilding. Y’all play so many commanders that aren’t in the meta but make them as competitive as possible But nobody has the deckbuilding creativity as LoadingReadyRun, they did a “bad tribal [sic] cEDH decks” stream once and it was incredible, some truly nonsense decks based on absolutely atrocious creature types: Griffin Stax, Moonfolk High Tide, Advisor Blue Farm, and Shaman Stormless Storm

[@cinosaurus]

Quality content for morning vibes 👏

[@travismcauley9875]

You Guys are the best, keep up the great work

[@ghost64626]

Still waiting for the Legends set review lol

[@PlaytoWinMTG]

Haha maybe one of these days

[@keitha4768]

14:44 This is the content we need

[@meximan374]

Woo, new episode!!!

[@AMerexican787]

If someone wanted to put together a pod of cedh decks to introduce people to the format and the various archetypes, which 4 decks would you choose? Preferably some form of turbo combo, control, stax, and something else. They don't necessarily need to be top decks as long as they're roughly the same tier.

[@zeroisnine]

The reason the person affected chooses is because that person is being forced to take the action. So think of the text as being a modifier to the active players action, rather than the card. So when the player takes an action that has a replacement affect, they are taking the action and putting the replacement affects on the stack and thus are the ones in control. So for example, if a card said whenever a player draws a card instead you draw a card and there were two in play, Those cards are not causing the trigger, they are modifying the active players action of drawing. And so the active player choose how to put them onto the stack

[@mrgarneau4895]

What makes Indominus Rex even worse is that there's a card with the same name in the Jurassic Park cards

[@Mjoelnar89]

Don't think the player has to choose with two replacement effects it should be a time stamp issue due to: 718.1a: Multiple player-controlling effects that affect the same player overwrite each other. The last one to be created is the one that works

[@atyya4233]

I would like to know the PTW opining in Which commanders would be playable/viable on CEDH, for example: Emiel, the blessed Glenn from TWD

[@hussefalfonsoabizaidherrer515]

I love how you always end up making lists lolit almost seems inevitable, i think Tyler meme'd about it a few episodes back. I'm all for the lists though keep em coming!!

[@Rizso1]

think of oppo agent same as if you cast mindcontrol on a creature thats affected by a mindcontroll. Urza's saga dies to bloodmoon cos its at max lore counters. Saga is enchantment subtype so bloodmoon doesnt change it but it still losses the saga abilities. sense it no longer has its ability its now automaticly at max lore counter and dies to statebase effect.

[@wingmankid3084]

I have a question is Staff of domination still viable in Cedh?

[@ElderAlchemists]

We play commander 1v1 at our LGS multiplayer banlist. Would love to see you guys come down and take us on!

[@AeonMTGA]

I’ve always been a fan of Marath will of the wilds it just doesn’t have access to the 2 best colors :/ however great stacks pieces and combos!

[@DrivingCr00ner]

As a huge Jurassic Park fan I was so bummed about this SL. I mean, come on! How do you eff up amazing Dino cards?!

[@jonathonskogman8337]

Just a heads up buddy asked about tempest BLOCK, back in the day a block was 3 sets. So Tempest, stronghold and exodus were what he was asking you to evaluate.

[@jonathonskogman8337]

It would be nest if you guys did a top 10 Cedh cards for tempest block and urza block

[@VeilofDeathMTG]

Together we have one brain and Hive mind of cEDH Best Comments :D Also Cam...Blood Moon Kills Urza's Saga Because Its Its a Saga Land, so Blood Moon Makes it into a Mountain, It Loses all its chapters, its still a Saga and since it has no chapters it basically looks at itself as complete and goes away :D cause it believes its done...I think I explained that right? right?

[@Zaalbarjedi]

Very close actually. There are 2 rulings that explain the interaction. 714.2d A Saga’s final chapter number is the greatest value among chapter abilities it has. If a Saga somehow has no chapter abilities, its final chapter number is 0. 714.4. If the number of lore counters on a Saga permanent is greater than or equal to its final chapter number, and it isn’t the source of a chapter ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that Saga’s controller sacrifices it. This state-based action doesn’t use the stack. So, when blood moon is in play, it "clears" whole Urza's Saga and makes it a mountain. But it is still an enchantment and still a Saga. So, as a result, we have a saga with final chapter number 0 (because all text was removed from it), and 1 lore counter. Per rule 714.4, we need to sacrifice it.

[@VeilofDeathMTG]

What he said :D

[@chrisjanus12]

And also Indominous rex is a card on its own! Calling it that and then having it be a different card when indominous is a sultai card. Beyond the blue thing (which is absurd), the fact that there is already a card called indominous rex just makes layers upon layers of confusion.

[@adamreed2088]

Do you guys think colorless commanders fringe cedh?

[@D3V1L4NC3]

Effected Card splice 10/10

[@WindexChugger]

When do we get a ban list discussion?!

[@headhunterhades3816]

I’ve never understood why Intuition is legal but Gifts Ungiven is banned. Aren’t they essentially the same card but Intuition is way more expensive real money wise? I get that Gifts gives you 2 cards vs Intuition gives you 1, but in graveyard decks you essentially get all the cards for both anyway so I don’t really see the difference

[@raedien]

Because the ban list sucks.

[@janmelantu7490]

Yes, in a graveyard deck you get all the cards: Intuition gives you 3 cards while Gifts give you 4. I actually think both should be banned, but if you ban one of them it should be Gifts, it’s just more powerful

[@headhunterhades3816]

@@janmelantu7490 I’ll clarify that I’m not saying one is more powerful than the other, (after playing Gifts in Modern Storm I totally agree with you). I’m just trying to point out that if two cards have nearly identical effects they should either both be banned or both not be banned. Especially if the one that is banned is the more affordable option of the two because then it makes it kinda look like you’re just trying to set a “price gate” on the effect. You want this effect? Cool, cough up $150 or make proxies

[@Death_by_Tech]

13:58 talking about disrespect

[@Death_by_Tech]

17:08 or a mana sink, see Kenrith

[@N3VVZ0M]

Yo cam I’ve been playing the etali deck for 4-5 months now and I can tell you that etali is definitely tournament possible but you have to time it right

[@user-et6rk1qm9k]

13:00 Yes... Yes... Come to the darkside... realize the TRUE POWER of Esper. Esper has a better 99 than Grixis, but Grixis was always given all the best commanders. We've had to settle for an old fuck and a sphinxman. But soon, and I feel this deep within my balls, a new Esper commander will raise up from the crossroads of hell at Thunder Junction to claim the throne once held by and long since vacated by that ageless ascetic

[@Cuzzin2chainZ]

Toxrill is my new interest and it's "fringe" and still hits at lest 3

[@BS-gk2cb]

TEDH is playing to win by playing what you perceive gives you the best chance of doing so. CEDH is playing to win by pushing any given commander or strategy to its limits.

[@COJred1]

Can you guys please talk about that Japanese Rowan Dragonstorm deck? Love the show:)

[@TheSpiritombsableye]

Please tell me there's a deck list somewhere?

[@COJred1]

@@TheSpiritombsableye Yeah, search japanese rowan dragonstorm on youtube. Should be the first one.

[@christianklein6304]

@@TheSpiritombsableye mtgtop8

[@graydowns9731]

As a die hard Yidris storm fan I think it’s wild fringe

[@emiliomunozlevine1565]

My favorite fringe deck is zaxara the exemplary

[@emiliomunozlevine1565]

It’s nice because it’s a bit like kinnan but it has black

[@smack80]

wayward "SWORDTOOTH" is now a gummy herbivore with no swordtooth whatsoever

[@Dinnky13]

Sefris! It's esper, it's good, but people just see her and ignore.

[@zeroisnine]

Maybe controversial opinion, but I feel like tournaments take up too much thought in the community. Like yeah, I get it. But to me CEDH is still at its core a casual format in the sense that you are playing because its fun. Fun is still the why of playing, competitive is the how of playing, and winning is the goal of playing. Framing the format around tournaments changes the why to winning.

[@rantingrepublican4523]

I have been trying to make vaevictis asmadi the dire work for almost 3 years and I refuse to give up

[@deadNdivine12]

You'll get there one day. Primal Surge? Hahah

[@taylormatic]

No bananas on the Ian Tasigur so it's not an upgrade at all

[@MattCorrales]

I keep trying to find a good place for humility and the only think I can think of is token decks, but you’re wining if you’re creating a million tokens with haste anyway.

[@c.r.bledsoe9322]

I have a Slimefoot and Squee deck that can consistently combo off and win with little chance for interaction, and have even beaten other competitive decks with it yet people still don't think it's a cedh deck. So it could also just be peoples perception and not acknowledging a deck as competitive till it sees wider player bases

[@battleshatner1097]

I'd like to see that. Moxfield link?

[@Snamify]

Sounds pretty interesting! Show us more

[@MK-13337]

With two notion thiefs, you choose which notion thief will apply to your draw. After that the other notion thief will apply to the draw that would happen from the notion thief you chose and thus the notion thief you DIDN'T choose will end up drawing the card.

[@seangerrity9217]

Clearly they were making up for Serendib Efreet with the Indominous....

[@GoldSabertooth]

Wayward SWORDTOOTH as a Herbivorous Triceratops? Whack!

[@zero_and_counting3817]

There's literally an Indominus Rex card outside of the secret later. Big mess up.

[@WhoTFareyou2]

I love that Dillon thinks birthing pod isnt a fringe wincon 😂

[@dantebeleren]

A friend and I saw the JP Secret Lair(s) and immediately tilted as big fans of the series for the reasons you called out. Still love it over all, but the flavor is so wrong.

[@bryanbonar]

I always liked being a brewer in MTG, but I feel like especially in tournaments for cEDH, it can be a little hard to brew, as the 4 player experience means you almost have a responsibility to not play anything jank, because if your deck is less capable of contributing to a competitive game, you end up giving away wins to decks that would otherwise have a harder time with 3 opponents interacting with them. Do you guys ever feel a "guilt" for trying to play something that isn't as good as the top of the meta?

[@Punisher1818]

I had the same issue w the dino secret lair and i still bought it for gishath

[@baconsir1159]

Indominus annoys me because it isn’t the card “Indominus Rex, Alpha”

[@eucoliptus]

After the first few times saying "fringe" it's starting to sound like cringe to me and it makes it so funny lol

[@piralos1329]

Saga dies when blood moon hits bc Blood Moon removes the land types (that make it Urza), and all the abilities on the card (the various chapter abilities), but it doesn't make it not be a saga! As such, the next time state based actions are checked, the game sees a saga with counters equal to or greater than the number of chapters it has (which is 0!) It then checks if there's a trigger from that saga on the stack (hence why Fable doesn't die) - and after finding that there isn't, it sacrifices the saga! In short, Blood Moon makes Urza's Saga lose all abilities, which makes the saga part go "huh, guess the story is over! Bye!!" and leave!

[@jacob510]

But we need to know the most pressing question. What's your favorite dinosaur

[@Jonaltram]

Does Dylan have amnesia? He keeps asking "who am I?".

[@HeritikGamer]

It doesn’t bother me if they change the dinosaur types , those other dinosaurs could have or portray similar abilities . However , Legendary characters should stay true to their depiction in my opinion . Just saying 😂

[@chriswilliams2559]

Interested in why the change of opinion on secret lairs from you guys

[@austinbrown2833]

While I’m no cedh player one card id like to build for a combo/high power cedh build is Siona, captain of the pyleas from Theros

[@Vuietnam]

Wtf is Tedh? Ted Commanders? (Actual guess is tech edh but i am not certain)

[@Diamondstar1ify]

Tournament EDH

[@Vuietnam]

@@Diamondstar1ify omg how did I not put this together xD thanks!

[@XxVenem94xX]

They kind of say in the video, but aren't super specific about it. It's Tournament EDH. Which tbh is pretty much the same thing as Tech EDH, so you aren't far off.

[@amadoromero4823]

Idk about y'all, but I'm killing that Tasigur more. Jeff Goldblum on a magic card is such omega, incomprehensible turbo cringe that I will have no choice but to excise it from the battlefield.

[@daguynexdoor]

At this point I think you have enough tier lists to make a "tier list" tier list 😂

[@jonathankowatch6947]

First again

[@shredz6]

For me cEDH = the most powerful/efficient decks in the format tEDH = the cEDH meta

[@janmelantu7490]

tEDH also puts some different requirements on your flex slots

[@PhoenixRNH]

AlAn NoT iN lOwErCaSe

[@Shivan_16]

Why do you guys dog on Christianity? As a new viewer Ive been loving you guys channel and all the info and heart you guys put into your work. But as ive caught up with more episodes Ive noticed you guys seem to dislike Christianity/Christians. Which makes me so sad because as a Christian in the Magic community I am extremely alienated as it is. I love and respect all people, accept them for who they are, and don't push my beliefs' on anyone. But it breaks my heart to see people ive come to look up to put down my beliefs so harshly. But everyone goes out of their way to be kind about other's different beliefs.

[@damo9961]

The Jeff Goldblum card makes me want to build Tasigur so bad lol

[@VtroboguycEDH]

Welcome to the Etali chomp chomp tribe :D

[@pearcehubbart3767]

Jurassic park 2 btw

[@Jormungadr]

Made me realize cedh is definitely not commander if the colors matter way more then the commander itself. Cedh should be made its own format imo

[@keineahnung2868]

Am I trippin, or is Cam starting to grow some beard...?

[@koreyg8552]

Fringe means not popular and barely makes cedh power level. Borderline high power