Fuel Injector location - Dyno tested - 200whp 4age

Dyno testing the same set of fuel injectors in throttle bodies and end of trumpets. bosch ev14 980cc, 200hp 4age, outboard injection
Merch: teespring.com/...
‪@Garage4age‬
@garage4age

[@uncleputes]

He actually did it! The absolute mad man!

[@Garage4age]

Have talked to a few people re results in this video. Some theories were, the modern fuel injectors being used here already do a good job of atomizing the fuel, over older styles. Manifold temperature; the intake in this test is very well insulated from heat, runs cold at almost all times. spraying into a hot manifold may benefit from change of state cooling along with general cooling. Also to note; engine ran a bit richer with the injectors in outboard location, possibly a better fuel mix. i corrected the fuel ratio before doing the test. Also had a little play with injector timing over a small range with no effect. Since there wasn't any fuel stand off issues I thought this would be the case. Edit: seems every 2nd question is asking about the injectors not switching off on overrun. simple answer is, i had tuned that feature off at some stage and seems to never turned it back on, so dont worry its just a tick of a box away

[@KevskiStyle]

As atomizations: That doesn't seem to play a role. Change of state cooling is a bigger issue, as is mixture at full throttle. Mixture at idle is where the prblems start, but also at throttle response. This is only prevented on downdraft applications, or at higher injection pressures. Fuel puddling is the main culprit.

[@garage4k989]

I concur

[@uru-freemind7711]

v10 f1 which were the most powerful N / A engines per liter with that fuel used the injectors outside

[@doomprojectremap3411]

future video: put the fuel injectors back in their normal location and use another fuel rail with some dirt cheap fuel injectors strip the filter baskets and plumb the fuel rail with 50-100psi compressed air from your work shop compressor. injected ram air controlled by the ecu lol.

[@youwantshum9860]

@@uru-freemind7711 reason is F1s revving as high as they could back then would benefit from a better air fuel mix at higher rpms

[@SiroccoSeven]

I don’t know why people dislike this video. It’s awesome science and engineering

[@tristynleetl]

Bet it was accidental. I too have huge thumbs

[@SiroccoSeven]

@@tristynleetl either that or it's intentional. Even I sometimes dislike some videos accidentally but immediately notice it upon lifting my thumb. I doubt it would unnoticed.

[@ricepony33]

I’d be nervous with all that fuel vapor in the engine bay.

[@Garage4age]

I had a lot of fire extinguishers around that's for sure

[@jasonv9951]

I imagine with ITBs controlling ingoing air velocity and being sealed against the block that not a whole lot can escape against the inrush air current, and with fuel only pulsing on the intake stroke there is no waste spray to get loose.... But just a guess

[@woopimagpie]

Ideally you'd run this kind of setup inside a fireproof airbox.

[@danr8194]

@@jasonv9951 as someone who has used standoff injectors before I can tell you that fuel does escape. Not much but it does. The intake pulse causes some droplets to bounce off each other. I even moved the injectors futher down the ITBs trumpets and it still did it but only very small amounts.

[@zeljkoadzic1692]

ignition time is retarded or camshaft timing is not good...@@Garage4age

[@vertinskiyslava]

Это просто топ! На русском ютубе таких видео не найти, спасибо что снимаете для нас такой интересный материал!

[@zeljkoadzic1692]

this is still hidden as a trade secret. it's hard to get information... today I'm a little different. what we did 20 years ago, others were still playing in the sand, some only discovered today...

[@That90sMazdaGuy]

It's cool the engineering that went into this

[@Garage4age]

The cable ties ? 😂

[@jonazevedo28]

Good shit man! I've done the same test on a bike. The throttle was delayed down low, due injector timing, and the physical distance. Benefits of top mount; cooling as you said, and more time to tumble and mix, making a better bang and boom. Remedy for yours is; Bump up the fuel pressure as high as you possibly can, makes for a better mist, lean it a bit more than standard location. And last and obvious, find injectots with acute spray angle and more granualar. Everything you're doing is awesome!!!! Keep it up. If you can build an airbox that ingulfes the whole throttle body and bolt it to the head.

[@Garage4age]

Thanks. The fuel pressure one has been suggested quite a few times, may give it a go at some stage. Engine in this vid will be going on holiday for a bit, after a few more vids. a near stock engine will be going in its place to test some more experimental stuff..

[@HansBrodiAutomotive]

This channel is amazing 👌😍 also I would have thought that hanging injectors would make more of a difference... Nice to see that it doesn't

[@enchantedwenis4994]

I was curious too because I’m assuming the only benefit from hanging the injectors is for the cooler charge air effect which is why I constantly see carbs making more high end power gains over injection. I’m assuming this is why Indy series motors run this setup because they are trying to squeeze every bit of HP from their motors with the strict rules. I wonder if we would see the typical % power increase or more if it was boosted to capitalize more on the cooler charge effect or would boost disrupt the spray pattern too much to see any benefit?

[@youwantshum9860]

@@enchantedwenis4994 in Motorsport standoff/shower injection benefits in the higher rpm range. The injectors hangout cause it allows the air to mix more effectively when air speed increases in the rpm range. You'll usually see power gains with more aggressive cams and port designs and also high compression engines.

[@krusher74]

interesting that them just being in the way does not restrict CFM breathing. (but it must do) so i would conclude the inlet isnt the worst breathing part of this engine.

[@waelal-rihawi2496]

Lovely work, but you need to use a narrow angle injectors to reduce the wall wetting of the runners. All the puddling fuel on the runner walls are causing your vehicle to run leaner when you first open the throttle and richer when you close it.

[@exploranator]

Amen to that.

[@zeljkoadzic1692]

relatively...

[@RattiMatti83]

Injectors need do be more out. Fuel cooling air. More air= more power and gif you another 1 kw

[@devis592]

If there are two rows of injectors, one row is responsible for idling at the original position, and the other row is used at high speed at the front end of the ITB. Is this feasible?

[@waelal-rihawi2496]

@@devis592 , look up "skoda felicia rally." This is the only engine that I could think of at the moment using that setup. According to my memory, it gave them an extra 15hp out of a tiny pushrod 4 cylinder. That is a decent increase if you ask me!

[@TransAmDrifter]

From what I know, BMW e30 DTM had 2 sets of injectors. Low - mid rpm were inside, while mid and high rpm were outside. It gave a lot of additional HP.

[@Surestick88]

2 injectors is usually a solution to full power requiring bigger injectors that can't run the engine smoothly, or stay within emissions at low throttle or idle. You don't see it frequently anymore because injectors have gotten better. It's not so much the extra injectors that gave more power, they're more a symptom of more power.

[@Weihrauch88]

Came here for more usual glorious 4AGE trumpet noises, added bonus of standoff injection. Marvelous video as per usual!

[@olfy7313]

this is the ultimate pleasure for ones ears

[@GTfour01]

"Freedom units" 😆😆😆👌🏻 Love the build.

[@Nathan0A]

I'd love to see single primary diameter vs stepped primary headers! Awesome content you have here. Another interesting thing would be can WMI increase power on an N/A car that's not otherwise knock limited at all

[@Garage4age]

I have a few header test vids on here, some stepped. from tests ive done, seems to me the the step needs to be of a fairly decent size, to have an effect. which will give a bit more top end. but will significantly reduce low end power as the rest of header will be too big. But i want to do some more testing on this in the future, see how small can go out of head without restricting top end

[@jonnyretro2235]

This channel is so cool! Staged narrow angle stand off injectors for the high rpm range will see a better gain. But really only a benefit for very high rpm engines.

[@yojoshman8663]

This channel is so usefull in doing all the testing that none of us have the money or time to test ourselves. You sir are the man! Appreciate all your time and efforts!

[@corporalpunishment1133]

Your fuel pressure regulator adjust fuel pressure relating to the manifold pressure. By having the injectors in the wrong side of the throttle body at normal atmospheric pressure, effectively you're dropping the pressure difference across the injectors by 14 psi at idle. My tip is remove the fuel pressure reg vaccume line and run max fuel pressure all the time and tune to that. Cool video it was very interesting. 👍🇭🇲

[@Garage4age]

It doesn't run the reference line on a stock reg, so flat 3 bar

[@corporalpunishment1133]

@@Garage4age 🤔

[@corporalpunishment1133]

@@Garage4age ok i see theirs no line on the reg. Vertical stacks will stop puddles like older f1 cars but probably not a option.

[@skerlone]

Injectors are huge over 4x what you would need. Fuel injection on production cars works like this: fuel is sprayed on the back of the closed intake valve that is hot and evaporates the fuel witch then mixes well with intake air. Atomization is not important. Injection from such far away from intake port should be better but not easy to tune and use. On worm up is worse and probably at low revs and loads. It would work better in a hot intake that is bolted directly on cylinder head.

[@BoostedPastime]

10/10 channel!

[@stygmartyr]

I just love these videos, please never stop.

[@minnionator]

Engine Masters did a very different test that yielded similar results: Horsepower differences between Carbed manifolds and Carbed manifolds w/injectors in them. The carbed setup made more power everywhere, due to fuel vaporization and lower IATs. Goes to show that carb specific manifolds and EFI specific manifolds are two very different things and they cannot really be intermixed and yield similar results!

[@davidcakers6818]

Nice jury rig on the fuel rail, good results. I bought 1 of your stickers to put on my virgin roller cabinet

[@janeblogs324]

Jerry rig mate

[@davidcakers6818]

@@janeblogs324 look it up, both terms are acceptable

[@Celciusify]

The Yamaha R1 uses both inboard and outboard injectors, inboard injectors are used most of the time, with the outboard being used alongside the inboard at high RPM(when the variable intake is in the closed position). And at high RPM full throttle outboards are only used IIRC.

[@seanforsythe78]

Definitely the coolest looking form of intake.

[@garandi]

Beautiful video, loveve the slow motion 🥲😆😆😆😆😆

[@uru-freemind7711]

v10 f1 which were the most powerful N / A engines per liter with that fuel used the injectors outside

[@RyuMoto]

I think you just saved me a lot of 💰. Time to buy some merch!

[@woopimagpie]

I saw an article in a Performance Fords magazine done on Glenn Seton's EL Falcon Supercar, it had a similar setup. In the interview Glenn stated the power gains were significant from utilising this type of setup. From memory the photographs showed the injectors were standing quite a way out from the inlet trumpets too, not even inside them. I guess if you're finding a few horsepower in a small engine (by comparison) with a jury-rigged setup and a bit of playing around, then a no expense spared race-prepped 5-litre V8 with a fully professional setup dyno-tuned to within an inch of it's life would see horsepower gains that were in fact "significant". Idle and low speed behaviour isn't really an issue in a V8 Supercar, lol. I've also read about some engines that run staged injectors - smaller port mounts for idle and low rev tractability and behaviour, then a gradual switch over to larger trumpet throat mounted units for high revs and full power use. Best of both worlds, if you will. There's plenty of aftermarket ECUs capable of running dual injector setups, it probably wouldn't be that hard to build a similar setup to stage the injectors. Something to think about anyway.

[@PistonAvatarGuy]

"... the injectors were standing quite a way out from the inlet trumpets too, not even inside them." My first thought was that the injectors were too close. They were probably interfering with airflow a bit.

[@LemonMan_Man]

This is an amazing video to show people why polished ports are a bad idea, if you keep things slightly rough or dimpled it collects fuel and more evenly disrupts it.

[@LemonMan_Man]

I would like to see this again with a dimpled port and swirls and maybe a in tube venturi???

[@tiitsaul9036]

Thanks for sharing. I was expecting bigger difference, but it is what it is. Perhaps your normal setup is so well sorted out it’s hard to make any significant gains with simply fiddling with shit.

[@blkdna748]

So cool about tuning. It would be great to see. This channel is awesome.

[@user-oy6qn8bl9v]

you are a real scientist!

[@whataboutbob7967]

In Sprint Car racing they run two sets of injectors. one just below the throttle valve, the other is in the head directed at the intake valve. This way they can have it lean enough for part throttle, & fat enough a WOT. they are running Alky

[@bobross6677]

Its amazing how 200hp can make such a difference

[@tylerrogowski]

Look at a sport bike intake. My 2016 R1 has velocity stacks that move depending on RPM, and 2 injectors per cylinder. One at the end of the velocity stack and one near the bottom of the intake runner. Good enough technology to make 200whp at 1.0L

[@bengunn07]

This definitely has merit and as you suggest with your example, the advantage becomes more and more noticeable as RPM increases.

[@DoriFord]

Great stuff! However, if you pump up the fuel pressure you will increase atomization by a lot. Anyway, lovely 16V! Sorry, I see you have a lot of fuel pressure comments.

[@glensubtorq]

"Danger Will Robinson!" 😲🤣😎

[@JCnordic2983]

I always thought like the 2 stage fueling of old blown injected dragsters

[@noxious89123]

Just a thought, but the situation would be different if instead of ITBs you were running this setup with a large plenum and single throttle body. Because in the setup in the setup in the video the injectors are infront of the throttle plates. Whereas with a plenum and single throttle body, the injectors would be down stream of the throttle plate. So when at idle, the fuel would be being sprayed in to the low pressure "vacuum" of the manifold; the fuel would vapourise more readily due to the low pressure. I had a 2007 Honda CBR600RR and that had a pretty cool setup where it had a set of injectors pointed right at the inlet valves, and secondary injectors up in the airbox pointed straight down the velocity stacks.

[@TurbineResearch]

Thank you for sharing the information! Your merch is awesome I love it!

[@Garage4age]

Thanks!

[@gsparks77]

surprising and very interesting ,,,thank you !!

[@bikeserv]

Ducati used outboards on the 998,but they were a lot closer to the TB. A lot of bikes use 2 stages though, normal position for low rpm and all for high rpm

[@v.e.7236]

My guess-timation is the outboard injector location helps to cool off the air/fuel mixture. Appears to show benefits up top.

[@archibalbm1328]

Best video ever

[@zeljkoadzic1692]

I worked on this engine(15y ago). an extraordinary experience. my friend, I see that there are defects in the intake runner . there are many more details you can meade and that would bring you a lot of performance. it is better to use a modern injector as type DEKA, use Textolite | Textolite Hgw 2082 10mm an isolator to relieve the engine head temperature of the ENGINE intake

[@Garage4age]

It has a thermal gasket and a 25mm acetal plastic adapter plate

[@TheErki8]

Nice videos. Really enjoying your content.

[@TransAmDrifter]

And another thing. While having injectors inside, their angle and direction makes difference. Some injectors are pointed in the direction opposite to airflow, but I think it's only in forced induction, because it could slow down the flow a bit in n/a (i think)

[@bougie2k]

you need two ramp injector , one for low rpm and switch to the second one to high rpm .

[@tiagosilva2635]

This!!! And a ecu capable of controlling 8 injectors (don't know which one he has)

[@florenceflavien3970]

great Channel

[@TheNivekvideos]

Another Excellent Video!!!! Lots of practial knowledge....... 3 Thumbs UP! ;) "Decel Fuel Cutoff & 2 Stage injection" It would be "What a Rippa"........... Love Aussies!!! Kevin Thornton (Extrudabody)

[@flymat88]

Would be nice too see the full engine-modifications / specs in the description. Good video altough!

[@Garage4age]

All my later vids do, but rather not give out everything on this particular engine. it runs a big valve head and 300ish deg cams

[@michaelovitch]

You could avoid fuel puddles if you remove the ridges between the different intake components. That's certainly what causes the engine to run richer with injectors outboard. Fuel accumulates,is sucked in while being liquid and not vapor,so it burns less well,and is dumped on the O² sensor,indicating rich. Fuel is supposed to evaporate partially when injectors are external Depends when you check the AFR : on the whole run including idle (wich is supposed to be leaner if fuel accumulates in the intake) or at peak power ?

[@Garage4age]

Hi yes will revisit it at some stage. the intake pipes were just thrown together for the test. idle was fine, normal afr even though it looked like it should not have been with all the fuel floating around. part throttle rich when said fuel was sucked in as throttles are opened. once this cleared at wide open fuel ratio was back to normal throughout the midrange. top end got richer, (7000rpm onwards) this wasn't due to fuel puddling since well cleared at this stage. i assume from better fuel mix and more of the o2 being burnt.

[@michaelovitch]

@@Garage4age I don't get it. If it gets richer on the O² sensor,it's because you have more unburnt fuel in the exhaust,not because you have better combustion. A good combustion/fuel air mix wouldn't let unburnt fuel in the exhaust. Can't it this top end richer could be caused by bad harmonics in the air pulses ? When you check fuel stand of,cylinder 2 spitting back its fuel,wich mean,its air too. less air could explain a richer top end.

[@Garage4age]

If there is a better burn for the same amount of fuel /air there will be less o2 left over, which is what the sensor is measuring. So less o2 will show as a richer afr. So yeah if you have really crappy combustion it will read leaner on the o2 sensor. most of the standoff you see is on the rev limiter or very close to it, went lean well before this.

[@michaelovitch]

@@Garage4age i get it, more efficient in same conditions = richer, because less O² is showing in the exhaust. But since injectors are outside,and fuel evaporates very easily, could that contributes to get more 0² in the exhaust,simply because not all oxygen was used during combustion,some fuel being evaporated ? I get it that the dyno show better results,so it's more efficient,but can it be simply more efficient because of the mixture quality,while you loose fuel by evaporation ?

[@Garage4age]

The fuel doesn't just disappear when it changes state though. So pretty much all the vapour would end up in the engine. Since not hanging around long enough to float away

[@JoniK1]

Very interesting, thanks for the video! 👍

[@TheLordMaximo]

awesome work bro Thanks what i ever though about this was the best is to use both location low flow rate on the throttle bodies for low torque and response then you place high flow rate outside the trumpets but.... working 2 fuel injectors banks can cost a few compared to a basic one i drived newer injected cars where the injectors goes on the intake near the engine head and my actual car is a old one too, where it does use a old fuel ECU , placing a giant fuel injector on the intake hole, outside. and i feel that too , the response is a damn thing... more when do you use an N/A engine so now i am getting parts to work over an newer eletronic injection compared to yours the issue is : theres none ITBs i know would be compatible with my car lol

[@CreeperOnYourHouse]

Smoother power curve is probably because there's less fuel being spit back out the intake or collecting on the walls.

[@oikkuoek]

All this starts to make a difference when those ITB's are ditched. When squirting into a smooth bore runner, the fuel returns to fluid. when squirted into a rugged bore with no obstacles, the stream stays intact and cold, and the mixture is more homogenous.

[@Garage4age]

Not saying you are wrong, but do you have anything to back that up? if slow down the down throttle footage, from about 4000rpm onwards at full throttle all the fuel is off the walls. whats wrong with the itb's?

[@oikkuoek]

@@Garage4age it is the laminar flow barrier, that lowers the air pressure and speed, and therefore concentrates the fuel into the walls. At full thorttle, the whole valve becomes just an obstacle, unnecessary and basically a power-reducer. To have a perfect AF-mix you need runner length, as you have demonstrated, and you need runner diameter. Basically, you need a full barrel of AF-mix ready behind the valve when it opens for the next round. The pressure from the cylinder and valve movement affects on this, and the trumpet is there to compete with this resonance. Most air speed is gained by creating a swirm inside the trumpet. This gives the most laminar flowing AF-mix towards the valve per cycle. Without the swirm the flow is too turbulent, and valve shock creates a back pulse that clears the whole pre-camber. A swirm keeps the air inside the chamber, and has a low pressure area inside the runner to dissipate the pulse. This is simpliest to make with just one butterfly and a MAP-sensor. With the O2 and Cranck sensors of course.

[@s2000Macedonia]

Great videos as always.. Keep it up

[@mexell3174]

Hi Im from Brazil, nice video .... very explanatory!!! I put one 4 Trottle body in My Vw golf...and I had an increase of torque ....

[@andersonsevero5833]

Olá! Como anda o projeto? Qual cabeçote vai utilizar? Um fluxo cruzado?

[@mexell3174]

@@andersonsevero5833 Ja montei um fluxo cruzado com trottle body, o carro fica outro meu amigo!!

[@sergiogranato5562]

Hi Buddy, Very interesting. It would be really nice if you could run a test with 2 sets of injectors, main set back at the intake port and an outboard set of smaller injectors to be activated only at WOT. The outboard injectors would mainly be used to cool down the charge. If you could take a look at your phase diagram to see if injection is properly timed with the intake valve opening cycle. That might help in reducing fuel stand off .

[@Garage4age]

Hi, yes that would be ideal. unfortunately my ecu cant do staged injection with injection timing on each group. only has 4 injector drives. standoff wasnt really an issue. looks like it in the down throttle shot. but the camera is very close to the end of runner and fish eye'd. the shot from above shows some standoff at high rpm but is mostly on the rev limiter

[@sergiogranato5562]

@@Garage4age Hi, thanks for answering. With 4 injector drivers, perhaps you could sacrifice a bit going from sequential to batch injection mode. People comment that the loss is negligible in some cases. If you use 1 driver for each 2 injectors, you can drive 8 injectors. The question would be if your module will accept independent control for each set.

[@Garage4age]

@@sergiogranato5562 batch fire staged is no issue. but using batch fire may end up with fuel standoff since cant adjust injector timing. Yes in most cases very little to be gained power wise with sequential. especially if not running very large injectors. tends to help at low loads more.

[@jasondoulkeridis6202]

This makes me curious of what could be done to an old mechanical injection machine. I see potential for a long intake pipe and pre throttle injection simply injected into the intake, giving time to atomise and run without complex changes to the motor. Simply doing some sort of physical delete to the mechanical injection and setup a basic EFI system. Now I really want to try it.

[@mattcook160285]

I run DSFI (Duel Staged Fuel Injection) on my 2.0 race engine. I have AT power direct to head throttle bodies with one bank of injectors positioned right by the head and the 2nd bank right at end of trumpets like you have done. I use a progressive transition low rpm fronts and as revs go up it fades out and rears kick in. I do a 90r/10f % at WOT (wide open throttle) past 5500rpm. I've seen b2b we get 11bhp more and 14lbft torque due to better mixture. Your issue is injectors are too big. Use 440cc or 470cc

[@Garage4age]

nice. yeah staged is the way, my ecu cant do it.. ive ran different sized injectors. not outboard, but at the head. zero power difference

[@driver46]

Great videos , very interesting results .

[@bobwhite4344]

great vid.

[@peterfuchs7822]

Try to move the injectors further away from the trumpets if you can.

[@sexyfacenation]

Just need to cut away the strut tower or at least drill some holes

[@BMWontrack]

I would like to see if the injector position made a difference in AFR. If it does affect AFR retuned to the same AFR as baseline, and then do dyno run to see if there is a difference

[@Garage4age]

I cant remember 3 years ago how much different the afr was, if any. but on pretty much all my testing i will correct the afr if needed.

[@StavTech]

Brilliant video. Obv' with forced induction the cooling effect should be more. Love to see that tested too. I'm contemplating mounting the injectors on my new turbo setup further away than usual up the runners (its got long runners) to see if I can gain something from cooling, but I don't want it to drive like crap at part throttle. Hmm...

[@turbo1438]

Here's a brainstorm idea. Two sets of injectors. One in the manifold for low rpm driveability and one smaller set up stream for added fuel and charge air cooling when turbo psi is up. Or control them by throttle position. Just a brainstorm idea.

[@StavTech]

turbo 14 that’s a thing, it works, look at the Ford Sierra RS Cosworth RS500s, they had exactly that. Four in stock place, four in the back wall of the plenum firing down the runners

[@taz4100]

More modern sport bikes do it also. With a 16k redline they come on around 8k. I believe the normal set of injectors doesn't shut down at that point, just stays at a reduced duty cycle.

[@oscarzt1652]

i thought the injectors stay shut when you let off the throttle

[@jamesford3549]

They can shut off, but adding some fuel on overrun helps sort cooling etc.

[@jamesford3549]

@jason crigger what do you mean it makes no sense. If an engine is in a over run situation, if you cut fuel completely the engine won’t stop. But if you do add fuel, you can cool the engine from the change of state during evaporation.

[@jamesford3549]

If you’re going down a hill with the throttle closed, think about it, what happens to the engine revs. I’m not talking engine run away, or run on. I’m talking about over run. Same as accelerating to high revs then taking your foot off the throttle and staying in that gear. The engine will remain at high revs with the throttle shut. This is called over run and the injectors can be cut off completely, but there are reasons to map it so that the injectors still add fuel in this situation like I said above.

[@jamesford3549]

@jason crigger hah get it now?

[@SuprSi]

@jason crigger lol the standard "i knew that" after showcasing your complete lack of understanding. Great job.

[@flakey7832]

if you have a big budget you should be running both setups in a sequential config normal position primaries for low revs and partial throttle and stad off secondaries for high rpm power

[@Garage4age]

Yeah definitely the way to do it. but i have no budget 😂

[@jinkwt]

Try using both injector before throttle and after throttle. And running interpolate between both injector according to tp by percentage.

[@Garage4age]

ecu only has 4 injector drives. so cant run staged whilst being able to control injector timing. but yes that is the best way to do it

[@Fmonnav]

Beautiful.

[@eltonv8tao]

you could put an oxygen sensor in the exhaust for a more accurate measurement 👍

[@JoelArseneaultYouTube]

Running the injectors outboard gives a good visualization of how much air flow changes at different RPM and how much it actually backflows. I feel like this is a good argument for variable cam timing and variable intake runners. This also make me wonder how much lost potential is in an engine like this. The endless balancing act of tuning everything to just the right rpm while matching flow and pressure waves. Not sure if that was clear, so what I mean is that you may have your exhaust and intake turned perfectly for 7500 rpm, but other variables, perhaps your engine would be happier at 8000 or 8500.

[@Garage4age]

I spent a lot of time getting the intake right for the best compromise. In this video it isn't quite right, as had to shorten the runners to fit the injectors. If you compare it to a stock engine it starts making more power from 4000rpm onwards. stock engine would be lucky if it makes 90kw on this dyno. Yes agree with the variable cam timing, This engine should hold peak power till 9500rpm if had my vvt setup on it.

[@JoelArseneaultYouTube]

@@Garage4age Thanks for the response !!

[@leongustavson8746]

Have you studied the voltage log with each run, does you alternator have enough grunt? Have you considered adding a teflon scrapper tray on your crank Have you u considered adding -hg vacuum to crankcase to stop ring flutter at high rpm and stop oil clinging to crank centreline. With the cams, did a new set of valve spring that are designed for these kelford cams installed. Titanium buckets and retainer will also assist in valve float and reduce harmonic frequencies at higher rpms. Given cylinder 4 is rich is it due to air starvation, caused by turbulence in runner and intake port shape. It likes 100degree oil temps.

[@Garage4age]

Which engine are you referring too? The engine in this video is a different one to the one that has rich cylinder 4. All the videos with "200whp 4age" in the title are my good engine. "gold 4age" is my cheap test engine thrown together with old parts.

[@leongustavson8746]

@@Garage4age The spare parts version. Yeah, it was meant for testing unit. My apologies for wrongly posting here, was reading through quite a few of the comments and must of crossed my wires. Amazing thorough testing tbh.

[@Garage4age]

the junk engine had toda springs already in it. so was good to go for the cam upgrade. the other engine has kelford beehive springs, ti retainers and 1sz shimless buckets. voltage is fine. haven't tired the other things, but would be interesting to try

[@DanielErnst1991]

Well both ways are effective if you on a round course where you can stay at high speed and rpm the before injection is your best choice but if you run hillclimbe or Star finish then you go better with after or direct injection

[@nickthompson9697]

How educational.

[@daddycool889]

Awesome so interesting. I know it’s just testing but in the itb, you could see 2 shoulders up from the butterfly choking the air flow a bit. Also, seeing how the injector squirts out fuel like an old garden hose. I wonder if different injectors would be better to atomise them fuel better, or perhaps a ‘multi-jet’ type injector that does several mini squirts that might keep the fuel atomised more. Anyhow, great stuff. Ps I always wondered whether ceramic coating the combustion chamber fully would increase efficiency and hp….for a future rebuild? Cheers

[@zeljkoadzic1692]

excellent observation.

[@mortenjrgensen5497]

I can see there is a lot of fuel running on the alu tube. If you make this surface rugh then you can have a small gain..it gives a better feul evaporation.

[@nikatskhovrebadze5803]

Damn that induction noises

[@lonely.surfer2060]

Use duas bancadas uma próxima pra aceleração rápida , e outra distânte pra potencia... E assim que fazemos no Brasil pra ter um carro de rua e pista

[@devis592]

I have seen modified engines with fuel injectors installed at the front and rear of the ITB, but I am afraid that too much oil and gas will accumulate at idle speed and cause a fire.

[@Yarrow54]

How about both 😂😁 motorcycles have top ones that kick in at upper RPM, and the main injectors before the butterfly low-mid

[@matthewvarner3603]

all portions of the runner that have a fuel mixture in the air need to have walls that are not smooth. This is partly why you are having puddling issues from a very slick wall film that can't maintain its location on the wall.

[@cocka99]

Try the forst method of position from the injectors for the secondary Injectors is very common method on the hi level cars here in European FIA Hill Climb Masters

[@kissmyaskew9844]

What is the First method? Or has it already been mentioned and I missed it?

[@chincemagnet]

If it catches on fire 😆 Definitely a possibility here

[@Ultrasonictwo]

Awesome stuff... its most crazy that i think you sound just like me lol

[@conradsinsua7415]

Wow alot of resonance spitting back fuel out... Time for some REED VALVES....

[@96blackjacket]

Dang look at all the pooling fuel

[@4025215]

You'll get better gains from the outboard cause the air is alot denser with the fuel further away

[@secondstage4272]

This is awesome! Would you consider secondary stand off injectors for the small gains it made? Or not good enough performance vs $ ?

[@Garage4age]

In my case too much money for the gain. as would have to upgrade ecu to control it properly. I can see how it would be worth doing in a race car situation, trying to get that last little bit of power

[@secondstage4272]

@@Garage4age totally understand, also 150 kw from a 4age!!! love your work

[@johnj2496]

Man I love all your testing Your the yoda Richard holdener But ....🤔🤔🤔 what if you wire the outboard injectors Parallel to regular after tb injectors But with a 3800 rpm window switchs But really gained not enough and I'm guessing the fuel mileage is running down your fire wall lol No smoking in car with ac on 💥🔥💥

[@Cheetahtos]

No need to clean throttle body ever again.... 👍👍

[@Mike-ry4ti]

Awesome, did you end up turning off the fuelling on deceleration on your ECU? looks like a fire hazard if idling for a long time...I used to run a second set of injectors on my megasquirt, though that was a boosted setup so they were enclosed...

[@samueldysart]

Try that with the extreme trumpets.

[@samueldysart]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hX_FqZuKapmhrJY

[@doomprojectremap3411]

always wanted to know if raising the fuel pressure as high as possible ( depending on the injectors specs ) to 70-100+psi with an injector position like this, would help draw in the surrounding air around the trumpets and create a slight increase to the intake runner air pressure. not sure how much heat the fuel pump would generate so maybe cooling the fuel to ambient temps using a fuel cooler could help. the idea came from using a pressure washer one day and the amount of energy that is created from a small amount of water but that is with 1000psi.

[@Baard2000]

Once read interview with engineer from TMG Toyota motorsport Group Cologne ...stating that raising injection pressure from 3-4 bars to 150 gave the same power increase as from carbs to injected...... But from 150 .....one had to increase to 350 to see more benefit compared to 150. He also stated that the dyno room was equipped with 1000 bars petrol pumps...but that was for direct injected naturalky asparited F1 engines. FIA ruled out 350 or more as a 1000 bar petrol pump would be expensive as a complete F1 engine at that time . ( 2011) .....

[@doomprojectremap3411]

@@Baard2000 that's some good info, i have watched those f1 engine dyno run's and was amazed at how well their injectors atomize the fuel and always thought they would be using small injector tips with high fuel pressure to achieve that result. the thing i noticed is the f1 fuel injector spray doesn't appear like its trying to use that extra fuel pressure to try and ram it down into the cylinder head ports, their fuel spray seems to be more of a gentle mist and the engine draw's that fuel mixture in naturally. i am presuming they have designed the setup to be fuel efficient and not trying to use that high fuel pressure to brute force the fuel spray into the intake ports to make a small power gain where you would probably end up wasting fuel doing it this way.

[@Baard2000]

@@doomprojectremap3411 I guess that is correct you write regarding the fine mist these F1 injectors create. About the 1000 bars injection pressure the engineer said that in direct injected F1 engines there is no inlet track giving time to vapourise the fuel to a good mixture. Therefore the injectors in the cylinder/head used the high pressure to have vapourize / atomize the fuel so horsepower would we ( almost ?) equal to a normal injected F1 engine. The high pressure was also needed for pulsed injections which would not be possible with , for example the 90 bars used on the Ls direct injected engines. It would be possible, but then not enough fuel would be injected.... So all was done to create a perfect mixture......

[@doomprojectremap3411]

@@Baard2000 yea that's crazy.

[@MrRyanthegreat1]

No deceleration fuel cut? May as well be running carbs!

[@Garage4age]

Its just a tick of a box away.

[@mftsolutions3893]

I've had a look through your videos and didn't see any related to fuel injection timing, have you done any testing in this regard?

[@sxechan]

Hey mate have you tried this as a 2 stage system, as someone mentioned earlier. With inboard being run majority of the time whilst outboard at close to wot or high rpm band.

[@Garage4age]

Yeah that's the ideal way to go if if care about drivability. As to when the outer injector will come in will depend on the engine. If well sorted and reversion isn't an issue the will be able to be brought in sooner. I didnt bother with staging here as just a test. Plus my ecu doesn't have 8 injector drives that can be staged and injector timing for each group

[@user-ef3om4jb6s]

i think yamaha R7 used this type of injection and that little 750cc nugget is rated to 150ish hp

[@W0o0dy]

In the last shots we see the aluminium pipes inside the "trumpets". Wouldn't a system where they fit flush inside give less resistance? And then of course: is that better or worse?

[@Garage4age]

Change in power isn't measurable if there is any change at all. But in this situation the fuel pools in there at idle so not ideal

[@macgyverdroid]

Em i rigth the outboard is better on mid to top end while port position is better on lows🧐

[@Garage4age]

Seems as though the fuel in the runner alters the effective length of the intake runner. I made another video not too long ago revisiting the outboard injection. it shows the effect a bit better