FULL REVIEW: Saucony Endorphin Pro 4 (Differing Opinions!)

If you've been following Doctors of Running for a while, you know we don't always agree on shoes we test. Today Matt & Andrea host a special episode to discuss their differing opinions on Saucony's latest racer, the Endorphin Pro 4. They dig into what make their experiences different, how biomechanics influence our perception of shoes (especially super shoes), and how to find the best racing shoe for you.
Read our Endorphin Pro 4 review: www.doctorsofrunning.com/2024...
Shop the Pro 4: www.runningwarehouse.com/Sauc...
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
3:42 - An overview of the Saucony Endorphin Pro 4
7:45 - The fit of the Endorphin Pro 4
13:34 - Midsole & Ride
23:59 - The importance of shoes geometries lining up with biomechanics
28:24 - Shoe characteristics that influence ride experience
31:54 - The influence of sockliners on the feel of a shoe
35:55 - The stability of the Endorphin Pro 4
39:34 - Learning about your running experience & finding reviews that match with you
46:06 - Wrap-up
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We are a group of physical therapists and runners interested in the art and science of running shoes. Learn more by visiting doctorsofrunning.com
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[@DoctorsofRunning]

GIVEAWAY! We’re offering a chance to win a $100 Running Warehouse Gift Card! TO ENTER: Drop a comment about the episode below! US residents only eligible for giveaway. About the Contest We’re excited to share that we’re partnering with Running Warehouse for not one, not two, but eight giveaways in the coming weeks. All you have to do to enter this week is leave a comment about the podcast on our latest episode on KZbin for a chance to win a $100 dollar gift card to Running Warehouse. The contest is open through May 3rd at 9 PM EST. Only US residents are eligible to enter. Please respond to our account only for winner announcements. We’ll reach out to you on how to get the $100 Gift Card. This contest is not sponsored by Facebook. No credit card info is required. THANK YOU to Running Warehouse for their support! Head over to runningwarehouse.com for all your running shoe needs.

[@SloaneSpencer]

I liked this "face off" style episode. I'm a dedicated Speed, Shift, Triumph wearer, and super sad the Shift has been phased out. I don't need more plated shoes; I want the similar rocker/ride to a Speed without a (nylon or carbon or magic surface) plate.

[@dalemcmurren3595]

Totally agree plus I prefer the 4 mm drop

[@JamesMarchetti-bk5xn]

I had a chance to do a short run in the Pro 4 immediately after running 6 miles in the Speed 4. The pop off in the Pro 4 astounded me. I’m looking forward to picking up a pair. Enjoyed this podcast.

[@krisa.1263]

Can't wait for the Pro 5 to come out so I can get the Pro 4 at a discount!

[@tdvent1]

Love your website and podcast!

[@charlenelam780]

Thanks for the review 😊! Was really interested in trying these out!

[@andrewbeane6015]

Love the content! Ran mt first half-marathon this weekend, and looking forward to listening more great content as I prepare for my next race!

[@djoseph312]

Love your work guys. So helpful

[@leJsquaredd]

I am a slower runner and just received the Pro 3. I really enjoy them! I would love to try the Pro 4!

[@Fozzee.1970]

Completely different shoes. Don't assume that because you like the 3 you will like the 4!

[@stevenleung8059]

Awesome chat! Love the endorphin line and really fun to hear more perspectives!

[@NoelleBisinger]

You guys are always my go-to, #1 source of shoe reviews before I try anything new! Appreciate differing opinions and how thorough reviewers are!

[@Afflecl]

Thanks for your reviews! I love the Speed and Pro 3s so looking forward to trying these out soon.

[@dougshipatl]

I really appreciate the differing opinions. It brings out very insightful details (like toe length and how shoes interact). Keep these coming!

[@ztp5003]

Loved hearing the difference in opinions! Currently racing in the 3, looking forward to trying the 4 at some point

[@amywalworth9068]

Love this video! I’ve only ran in pro 1’s (current racing shoe)! Would absolutely LOVE to try the 4’s!!!

[@cristinagray9399]

Would love to try out these shoes for my upcoming events! Great episode! ❤👍🏼

[@sportsapologist1171]

Enjoyed this back-and-forth! Great to hear differing opinions on the same show... Enjoyed the Endorphin Pro 3 but didn't get a great feel trying on the Pro 4. Keep up the great work!

[@infinitefreedom]

Thanks so much for this video! Been on the fence with this shoe myself (as I love the EP3 so much.) But this made me want to give it more of a chance.

[@Emiliobo]

As someone who only runs in a Saucony daily trainer for everything, adding the Pro 4 to the rotation and having two shoes to do everything seems like a perfect match. Amazing video as usual!:)

[@laurahubbard2169]

This is a really awesome conversation - I tried the pro 4 in store and my immediate intuition was no way - listening to this potentially confirms but also makes me think I should maybe give them a go. So much to think about and I love this conversation. Y'all my favs!

[@sangwoo29]

Loved the breakdown I own a pair of pro 4’s and agree with you all said on it!

[@Running_eyedoc]

Great episode! My wife runs in the 3, it’s about time for her to need a new pair. Will definitely share! Anyone who’s looking for shoe reviews and guidance, this is the place to go!

[@Mr.Kennedy9917]

Great episode I’m a new runner, my very first marathon is in October Chicago marathon. I like watching and learning more with doctor of running. I just got the endorphin speed 4 I love them

[@kurtbaumgartner8769]

Always interesting to hear differing views. I love my Speed 2’s and considering the Pro 3’s.

[@owgriswo]

This is an indispensable running pod. Love how you guys switch up the format to get different takes on the shoes we’re all considering. Loved the Pro 3, and this’ll help me decide whether to stick with the brand on race day this year.

[@Postal_Pnoy]

Great episode. Need more.

[@uticajsh]

Very interested in Pro 4. Always enjoy your analysis on new shoes

[@brian5258]

Nice episode!

[@adamlekin2782]

I have a pair of the speed 4. It’s good. I wish I would have gotten more pairs of the speed 2s. Such a fast and durable shoe. Unrelated…I’m pretty excited for the streakfly 2. It looks like a striped down vaporfly.

[@MrJhockley]

Rocker is so important to me. I built a database of shoe cross sections so i could narrow down preferred rocker positioning.

[@austinli6635]

Great episode! I appreciate when reviewers have different opinions. It reminds me that we all have our own experiences and we can take bits and pieces from each reviewer to build a picture. I don't think I have found any particular reviewer (in all the interwebs) that I most align with in shoe preferences, especially at my slower running speeds and feet characteristics, so I am always trying to absorb all the different perspectives. Thanks, team!

[@DaveShepherd2020]

Very intrigued by the Pro 4. Ran in the Speed 3 for workouts but haven’t tied the Pro models. Great info.

[@daymonclayton6388]

I have found that Matt’s reviews are a match to my personal experience like no other reviewer I have found. So I am always interested in hearing his take before buying a new shoe.

[@photoguru13]

I would love to upgrade to the Pro 4 and see how I perform in races. I’ll be running a half in the Speed 4 soon and I would like to see how I respond.

[@spacemanstanly]

Definitely got some great info out of this, would definitely be interested in more of these coin flip types of shoe comparisons!

[@okimy3668]

I think it's great that Matt is so confident in himself (listen at 8:50) you go my guy

[@GerardDypiangco]

I've only run in the Pro 1, my first pair of super shoes, like Andrea. I love the differing opinions on this episode.

[@tysonstewart1877]

Haven’t ever run in Saucony, but definitely want to try after listening!

[@gtromble]

Differing Opinions - very informative and worthwhile!

[@Feanaro5503]

Love these Shoe Feuds

[@mattbeier]

Love this format of comparisons from two different running styles. I use the Endo Pro 3 for races so I’ve been really interested in the 4. I had a chance to do a quick test in the 4 and really liked it, outside of a little heel slip due to the stretchy laces. I’m may eventually get a pair and swap the laces for that perfect fit.

[@jeremypacheco6450]

This was really interesting and helpful 😀 loved the CAT joke too 😸

[@viCoN24]

8:48 Matt's "usually, solidly a ten in most things" also applies to this episode. Great discussion, as usual :)

[@annamartin2309]

honestly i prefer the 3! 😅 love your videos!!

[@user-nf2cv6nl3r]

Love the comparison based off running mechanics. Very curious to try the Pro 4 for myself!

[@NickJBower]

I loved the pro 3. Feels like a trampoline but the 4 feels closer to me how Matt described. It’s comfy but my foot just kind of sank in and didn’t give the return spring. I was curious if it is more a material or geometry thing

[@orbhot]

Love my Endorphin Pro 3, I run a 1:45ish HM, so not real fast, but not slow, and I feel like they help shave a few nanoseconds off my pace.

[@josephjowers4701]

I did the Pro 2 and skipped 3. Saucony has my heart….and credit card info 🤪. Great job as per usual!

[@chinpoeykhoo6261]

Totally agreed that every runners have different biomechanic and preferences when it comes to running shoes best fit their feet and running pattern, just need to identify particular shoes reviewer that best fit to your current condition and a meh shoes for one person can be a wow shoes for you! Thanks for differing opinions on Endorphine Pro 4 episode!

[@jeffc1421]

Learning about how shoe geometries fit with different biomechanics is a topic that has been both interesting and useful for me.

[@N8_runz]

Loved this episode! In regards to knowing yourself, the NB Rebel V4 works extremely well for me, but does that mean the Elite V4 would be a good racing shoe for me? I only ask because the shape/geometry of the shoes are so similar.

[@andykung2854]

Just got the pro 3 on sale…considering the 4!

[@joakimtollerud2172]

I got the Endorphin pro 4 a couple of weeks ago and it's a great shoe for slower runners on race day and for comfortable long runs. The stable platform, the upper and durable outsole really makes it a great buy.

[@AndrewHarrison04]

Have the pro 3’s now and about to run my first half in them and can’t wait to see how they do. Wonder if I’d like the 4’s more?

[@ZackSmith-nk1et]

Haven’t tried the pro but I’ve heard good things… might give it a whirl. Good pod

[@user-fx3jk3no1d]

After Endorphin Speed ​​1, I am wearing Speed ​​3 and Endorphin Elite. I also want to try the Endorphin Pro 4

[@nspeak-vm5cn]

Loved the Endorphin Pro 2s total game changer. Would eventually love to try each one down the line.

[@cristian-adrianfrasineanu9855]

Even though it's not necessarily related to the topic: my achilles tendinitis has got better in the past month thanks to your tips, Matt, related to heavy resistance training and rehab! You truly help the running community folks, keep it up.

[@DoctorsofRunning]

Love to hear this! Well done, keep it up!

[@michaelcaricoo]

Good conversation, thanks folks. It kind of echoes my partner and I's conversation about the EP4. Neither one of us loved the 3, I loved the Elite and she did not. Interestingly to me, she loves the Endorphin Pro 4, I like it better than the 3 but I still prefer the Elite. Maybe it's the elastic panel, I don't tend to do well with them but it just felt so stiff to me, didn't feel the rocker much (which I live for) so when I finished a run in it, it was fairly meh, but she finishes a run and loved it. Just interesting to see how two folks can be very different about the same shoe like you pointed out

[@nikkifahey]

These look great. I’m really slow and have not run in any

[@nitrologly]

With high stability needs, it probably wouldn't work for me if the speed 3 is any indication...

[@dorins3787]

Maybe sc elite v4.... or hoka rocket x2.. among the plated I personally found those more stable

[@brandonvu7638]

love Saucony

[@stevenlowry1833]

I have run in the Pro 3, would love to try the Pro 4. May have to give up running for another couple of weeks. Bad ankle sprain, going to the Doctor (not of the running type) tomorrow.

[@bbygfy]

I love the Pro 4. I just picked up the Pro 3 on a discount. I am interesting in comparing the 2

[@vishalgobin8195]

Great segment! I haven’t made it to the Pro’s yet but still use the Speed 2 for races. It’s the runshield version though and it’s weird how it’s the same but also different than regular version. I had pain under my big toe with the regular version but the no issues with the runshield version and feels softer with just an upper change that still doesn’t get too warm! Wonder if the Pros will have a runshield version too…

[@mvanflue4894]

I enjoyed the discussion on rocker placement vs MTP joint location. I was recently thinking of this with shoe length (i.e. should be going half size up to an 11 for extra room up front, or risk my toes getting beat up for things to maybe line up more as they are supposed to). I didn't think to see where rocker, plate or other shoe geometry lands relative to my foot and chose shoes based on this. It is something I will have to start looking at, especially with expensive race shoes that I don't have the opportunity to try before I buy outside of an odd demo run here and there.

[@heatherwinchell7816]

I've still only tried the Pro 1!! But I love it!! I'm not picky haha. I actually prefer the Speeds for more runs. That being said, I haven't done real workouts in a while. I can't wait to try all the new models!!

[@gabr131s9]

Nice review guys! I’m a current Speed 4 user and love really those, looking to try my first supershoe soon. Considering these, and also the adidas adios pro 3. How would you say they compare? Both seem to be really good cushioned marathon supershoes. Also just wondering which out of the two would you say would be faster for 5km/ 10km distances? (I saw you mention adios pro 3 isn’t great for the shorter distances). Cheers!

[@runnin3216]

Hopefully I will get to demo the Endorphin Pro 4 soon. The last couple of super shoe demos at my LRS were cancelled (Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro 2 & Alphafly 3). Have the NB SC Elite 4 coming on Tuesday if I get there before the other guy that wears size 10.

[@sts265]

Amazing content and analysis. I wish the endorphin pro could work for me, but I had a weird issue where I felt like the heel portion of the insole was too narrow. I was standing on the raised edges. Really weird.

[@hamoudalnasser]

Interesting episode. It seems like shoe feel is a very subjective measure. I’m a wide footed mid/forefoot striker, liked the feel of the Pro on a short trial run, did not feel too uncomfortable on my foot. So many brands change their shoes, you cannot assume next edition will be the same as the current one. Need a new shoe, maybe the SEP 4. Thanks for the contest.

[@tgibridays]

I haven't tried any modern super shoes yet. I feel like the Pro 3/4 might be a good fit for me except I've had issues with sizing on Saucony (and kind imof all shoes at the moment). I think I've found out I just need to go up to 13.

[@jameswestmoreland9717]

Andrea, I have done a 2.5 mile swim, 116 mile bike rideand of course marathons. Just not at the same time/same day. There must be a name for those of us with those Iron credentials. Maybe a prize for thst: maybe a NB Beacon when NB gets smart and brings back the Beacon! (First time I saw a review, I thought it was NB Fresh Foam BACON).

[@austinobrien9881]

Love the early rocker in the pro 3! Sounds like the 4 was moved a little later and sharper? You mentioned matching the rocker with your metatarsals. I wonder if ankle dorsiflexion ROM also plays a role. I have very limited ROM here and have a hard time with stiff late rockered shoes as it makes me feel like I’m wasting energy “climbing out of the shoe.”

[@mochidomo]

Haha! That triathlon comment! Definitely would've made the same mistake. Who does all three sports and not combine them?!?!

[@marvtv264]

I also felt that they have more volume but I didn’t have any issues locking them down wearing them for the Boston Marathon.

[@PatrickStar-km1dm]

I got these coming in the mail in 2 days, i'll see how they do

[@andreipalma3547]

Andrea, could you help me? I have found that you have the same landing area and each shoe you recommend works perfectly for me. For my next marathon I was between Hoka Rocket x2 and Asics Sky Paris, but with this review the Endorphine Pro come into play. What would you recommend me? Buying all 3 would be very expensive haha.

[@LS-hz7xe]

My daughter is anxious to try these, but we’re waiting for more color options.

[@MichaelThibodeau-kb9zg]

Loved the episode!! It’s great to hear the 2 different viewpoints. I have been pondering getting either the pro 4 or speed 4.

[@Fozzee.1970]

I only had a brief try in this shoe amd really wanted to line it. However I didn't feel the roll. It just felt like i was on the heel/midfoot without activating the forefoot. It was bouncy but I just sank back into the heel.

[@benstevens1718]

I'd love more shoe reviewers to put up images of the worn soles from their shoes. It's one of the easiest ways to get a feel for whether a certain reviewer is potentially close to your style.

[@Ezechel.Trifan]

Would love an Elite vs Pro4 video.

[@skshain]

Interesting. I feel the same way with the ProV4. Seems like I have to work much harder to get the speed I got in the V3. What is another shoe that might work, other than the old V3?

[@kevinclark5086]

I've only just got my saucony pro 4. I ran a 5 mile run just to test the shoe to make sure nothing crazy happened. Today I ran 21 long run in horrible weather with constant rain and wind. Shoe felt very comfortable and light. I'd describe the feel as a slight squish then a rebound off the tarmac. Softer than an adidas pro 3. More stable in the mid foot than the adidas pro 3. I could definitely feel the speedroll working with a nice soft landing then a roll to the toes. It definitely wants to go faster. I'll be aiming for 8.30 mp for marathon as a guide to how I run. Definitely didn't feel any instability.

[@arturofernandez9714]

After Andrea mentioned that version 4 runs like version 1, I ruled out the pro 4 as the pro 1 is my least favorite shoe of the last 5 years. The rest of the podcast pretty much confirmed that this is likely NOT the shoe for my gait.

[@ClassicAlex]

Funny how the same shoe can elicit such different reactions. Daily trainers are one thing, but super shoes are even more individual. I have to be quite methodical transitioning to different super shoes/plated trainers.

[@morrisrehn4653]

Wondering I run in Altra for about 2 -3 weeks than switch to asic Superblast because my calves /Achilles get a little sore because the Superblast takes the stress off my feet

[@BrittanyMurphy-dh4vr]

I need these shoes in my closet!!

[@gpersonaltrainer]

I'm sorry if I disagree with Matt regarding insoles. The quest for comfort should be always prioritized. Wearing the Pro 3 at home for 1h (it's my usual test fit when I purchase a different pair of running shoes) has given me hot spots and I wasn't even running. The Pro 2 (and Pro +) have previously fitted me as pair of slippers. I've purchased the same insoles of the Pro 2 and "magically", comfort wasn't an issue anymore and I enjoyed the ride for 750km. Videos are available on my channel.

[@woidmoasta4673]

I Broke the Overlay excactly on the same Spot Andrea about 390Km😢 Do you find the Elite Softer in comparison to the Pro 4?

[@lukemilgate3397]

I find finding the right shoe is difficult. I have a short fat/wide foot. I tried to bring the size down and go the wider size. And it was terrible. So I stick to my comfortable size. Even though they're a bit long. And it's funny my most 'comfortable' shoe tends to make my foot ache after a while. (Triumph 21) foot mechanics is a tricky one , still tryna figure it out.

[@Am-cq6dd]

Which carbon plate shoes would you recommend for a pace of 8 to 9 minute ?

[@michaellinden9631]

Really liked pro 1 not pleased with 3 would like to try 4

[@locojosecarlos]

I try the demo shoe but did not feel natural to me since I being running on Lower drop shoes

[@saddleback7662]

So, Matt, when you say you just couldn’t get the desired response from the midsole, my first thought was “peba,” or, superstack. I’m probably way outnumbered, but not a fan. Even the blends, like the Rebel 4, it’s like slogging thru pudding - and the durability is dismal - and I’m only 128lbs. I know you can’t argue the science behind it, but I prefer critical or cmeva, by far. Question: Did you ever feel the same lack of responsiveness in say, the adios 4? …or 5?

[@Am-cq6dd]

Matt what was that pace you liked so we can get an idea ? 8 minutes, 9 minutes etc

[@DoctorsofRunning]

Good question. Most of my easy paces are 7:30 to 9 minute per feel. Felt fine there but was really best at 5:50-7 min pace (more marathon e pace for me) and felt forced at 5:40 and below (10k and 5k pace) -Matt

[@MS33496]

The Pro 4 is really slow for me and doesn’t propel me forward like the previous versions of the shoe. I wish I would have stocked up on the Pro 3’s but it’s too late now. The ASICS Metaspeed Edge Paris is my replacement for the Pro 3 as my PR/racing shoe.

[@dorins3787]

The episode is very interesting. Not due to the pro 4, but due to the way you analyse the differences between you as runners and between shoes. I suggested for another group of shoe reviewers to mention some characteristics before the review..maybe age, pbs for some distances, weigth and stability needs. This might help me as a runner understand better the reviewer's perspective in respect to me. Simple example: you speak of maraton pace and easy pace. If you run a marathon in 3h and I run in 5.. and maybe your slow pace in 4:30min/km and my slow pace is 6:30 / km, your perspective is less applicable for my personal case. I wish Saucony would produce again the Speed 2. I would pay the same price as the 4. I would even pay 10$ more because the speed 2 is vastly superior. Maybe a business idea for the guys in Saucony - and other brands.

[@wojtekbe]

Maybe permanent training in Speed 4 could help to learn how to cooperate with Pro 4 in a proper way?

[@DoctorsofRunning]

I have over 100 miles in the speed 4! -Matt