Full-Self Driving Demo: NHTSA Tesla FSD Beta Recall

[@JohnVanDeVoort]

At 12:50 - One thing the recall isn't expected to address is 'phantom braking.' I didn't finish that thought after the pedestrian yield. For more information on the recall, visit: www.tesla.com/support/recall-fsd-beta-driving-operations - Thanks for watching & feel free to share any comments about the recall or anything I may have missed :) Cheers!

[@UberDude]

The car did better than some drivers I see on a daily basis.

[@brianriebedriveselectric]

Nice example drive & overview of the recall elements. I’m not thrilled with the recall language for software fixes that don’t require a service station stop, but these should be positive fixes that need to be tackled anyway, so may as well move them to the top of the priority list.

[@JohnVanDeVoort]

It'd be nice if the government's language would be updated to something other than 'recall' since it is much different than a faulty airbag, bad brakes, or other major safety concern. With a level 2 driver assist, there shouldn't be question that the driver is still responsible and the software (as an assist) is not intended as the primary safety control for driving.

[@Xanthopteryx]

@@JohnVanDeVoort Well, the problem is that you still have to be able to trust the system. The same with all the other assisted features you have in SAE Level 0-2, like emergency brake, adaptive cruise control, blind spot and so on. This also include the psychology of the system: You you are tricked into thinking it is more capable than it really is, that could be a safety issue.

[@Xanthopteryx]

Well, it still is a recall: "Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle." See it as they are actually recalling the software in this case. The same things goes if you have a car that updates software at a workshop - still a recall, as in Remove software. And preferably you get a new software instead, but could be complete removal. All depends on the case. So by looking at the citation above, that is from NHTS, it can lead to a buyback of the FSD software.

[@JohnVanDeVoort]

I agree with psychology of the system. I've observed autopilot/FSD to take me to the edge of a safety issue, and then suddenly disconnect with a red error message and loud beeps immediately before something bad would happen. It is a good caution to all FSD beta testers to be ready to take over in an instant.

[@Xanthopteryx]

@@JohnVanDeVoort That is so, not good, when it goes like that. In my car i have a system that drives itself pretty good on roads with decent lines. It could in rare occasions do a little swerve if the lines fools it or becomes tricky like in snowy conditions. But it is not a large one like the wheel turning 90 degree or so. Most often it just shuts off and tells you in the steering wheel. And you of course have nags and also one important thing: When it shuts off, you do not get any 'warning' other than a burr in the steering wheel and that the symbol for it goes from green to grey (visible in the HUD). No audio. because... if you have audio, people would be less concentrated because "I will hear when it disconnects". Now you are more prone to focus And to hold a hand on the steering wheel. Those small clever things give you clues of how you trust the system or not. So everything connects, every detail, every sound, every symbol, giving the level for the whole system. Just like brakes: They have a certain feeling in them, to make you feel safe, trust them, and know what is going on and the limitations. You could today create a totally different feeling but that would be more unsafe. That is why you also have that feeling even when you have 100% regenerative braking - it should feel 'normal'. Not a safety issue but on the same line: Koenigsegg CC850 have an automatic manual(!) gearbox. Yes, you can drive it like a regular automatic or you can shift it like a manual, but, it is 100% automatic! Even the clutch pedal is 100% computer controlled. But since you want to have a system you can trust and feel, they have designed the pedal to behave exactly as a normal clutch pedal. The special feeling pressing it down, how the clutch plate engage and so on. And the gear selector the same way - feels like a normal gear selector. So if you did not know you would have NO CLUE that is an automatic transmission with computers doing everything when you do the manual shifting and clutch work. Car safety is tricky. It involves so many things, on all kinds of levels, and it can be hard to say what exactly makes you trust a system, a car, a function and so on since it is often a lot of small details that bring the whole together. A fascinating subject.

[@RB-pi3jl]

I believe the FSD beta improvements will go exponential at some point. Just like computers took many more years to learn chess that it took them to advance from there to beating Grand Masters.

[@1pros1t]

If TESLA has a recall on it's Level 2 driver assist system then I think all the other GM, Toyota, VW, Audi etc Level 2 assist systems should be fixed and recalled if they display the same faulty behavior as TESLA's. All Level 2 driver assist systems need to play by the same rules and adhere to the same standards. And YES ,FSD is a Level 2 system.

[@JohnVanDeVoort]

I just did a livestream where I hit on that topic. I don't think the NHTSA language involving recalls has been modernized with new car technology available. Over-the-air software updates aren't a recall in the traditional sense. The word 'recall' has strong stigma attached to it, which is unfortunate when media picks up on the recall notice and shares with the general public.

[@neverhay]

The only reason why you would have a problem with the “recall” language would be if you are a mega Tesla fan or a Tesla stock holder. As the driver of a vehicle, there is no reason to have any issue with the government mandating the manufacturer fix a flaw that poses an unreasonable risk to motor vehicle safety.

[@JohnVanDeVoort]

For me, concern is that the NHTSA definition of recall doesn’t speak into over the air updates, which regularly occur without recalls. It tends to be misunderstood by the media, which I see in the story titles about this specific recall. This translates to unfair public bias. For disclosure, I don’t own own Tesla stock directly (it may exist in a retirement fund I own). I do like the car, but also like my GM and Honda vehicles. I just wish those manufacturers had the same tendency towards innovation.

[@rsmonge]

my main problem, is that there is a fairly robust effort in the media to discredit Tesla. and using this term, knowing it implies you taking time out of your life, and potentially not having your car for a period of time, just lets them run wild. when in fact, the owner doesn't have to do anything at all.

[@Zripas]

Issue is with calling it "recall" where most people will associate it with situation where you have to bring your car back to Tesla or some service center for some maintenance, but in this situation majority of Tesla users will not even notice it as it will be fixed with OTA, so calling it "recall" is just stupid, and it's just small adjustment on software side for a BETA system to be more in line with requirements. There isn't anything that dangerous about those listed issues like taking slightly longer than regular driver would take at the stop sign, worst case you might annoy someone behind you.

[@Xanthopteryx]

People are looking at the word Recall in the wrong way: A Recall just means this "Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle." Nothing more or less - just simple and easy to understand. Does not matter how, if it is software or hardware or combination. But Elon of course does not want to be in the top list of "Recalls" but if they stop producing shit software and test things properly, they will not have this problem.

[@JohnVanDeVoort]

That's a good thought about the recall definition. For completeness, I found this recall definition on the NHTSA website: "A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect are made voluntarily by manufacturers prior to any involvement by NHTSA." Given this, any OTA software update could be considered a recall. This is new territory for auto manufacturers, since most traditional recall notices required a visit to the service center to be repaired. In our new tech world some fixes can occur at home, while the car is on Wi-Fi and we're asleep. Not just with Tesla, but other auto manufacturers as well.

[@Xanthopteryx]

@@JohnVanDeVoort Yes, and to be honest: Software recalls have been there for a long time but you just got a letter home to visit a workshop to fix an issue, or, you did not even get a letter because they would fix it the next time you did service, and the issue could have been just a simple new software. People normally does not give a shit HOW it is fixed - all they know is that somethings is to be fixed. That is why it is good to have one simple word: Recall. Majority knows the meaning of that: Manufacturer must fix it and it does not cost you anything. I have had a recall when i did not get a letter because, the issue was fixed at the upcoming service. In that case it was problem with screws to the airbag curtain. Not an issue in short term so no hurry to fix, but could lead to a potential issue several years down the line. So when i got the car they just said: We also fixed this because of xxx and since we needed access to the roof inside we had to take out your child seat in the rear but you must install it yourself again since we are not allowed to do that so it lies in the back seat now. (because of liability issues and the fact that there are tons of models and they must be installed correctly)

[@rsmonge]

@@Xanthopteryx no, most people do not know what a recall is. the Tesla stock dropped nearly 10% on the news. so, obviously you're wrong. traditionally a recall involved going to a service center, so pretending that the new kind of recall is well understood, is simply not well understood by you.