FURRY DRAMA and the INFAMOUS Strawman Argument

[@spooky4233]

Thank you for sticking to your guns and sticking up for vulnerable communities under attack by bad actors. The only arguments they have are strawmans or slippery slope fallacies that were used countless times to discriminate against the LGBTQ and furries in general.

[@AshCoyote]

Pretty much why I made this video.

[@spooky4233]

@@AshCoyoteI appreciate you and your work so much. Its felt like dark days with the current drama going on, but you breathe light back into the world. Thank you for all you do!

[@AshCoyote]

I try my best to help where I can

[@foxyloon]

Well said! I’ve found the strawman fallacy to be often used by folks who are trolling or otherwise wanting to incite in a comment thread. Thus the “don’t feed the trolls” tactic being the best move with these folks. If they’re not going to listen, don’t waste your time and energy trying to engage with them.

[@AshCoyote]

Exactly that

[@arvurebantra7639]

Sadly, there gets to be a point where the trolls start believing their own BS.

[@stuffnthangs5545]

i call it out right away... "that's a strawman, i said nothing even close to that."... and if they continue i simply reply with "oh, so you have no interest in having an honest conversation, you'd rather just be disingenuous and make shyte up... got it, let me know when you grow up"

[@AshCoyote]

perfection!

[@Blaze_The_Fire_Wolf]

Awesome job discussing this topic on the Strawman Argument Ash, in the past I’ve spotted people in Facebook and Twitter do these things and I’ve encountered it irl during my school years, high school can be prevalent for the Strawman Argument.

[@AshCoyote]

Places like facebook and twitter are a hotbed for arguments like these because folks try to distill a discussion into something that is a facsimile of what it should be

[@dragonmaster501]

I was once at someone's house and the mother and oldest son started ranting about the school litterbox thing (this is in Australia where we didn't really have that conspiracy) and how furries are mentally insane because we "think we are animal'. I started arguing that their definition of furry was wrong but they would not listen. I had not told anyone that I was a furry so I was really uncomfortable, especially when the son started talking about how he wanted to knock a young child out of a tree with a rock for pretending to be an owl. This was all a transphobic strawman, of course, but they openly admited they think that trans people are meant ill... It was horrorfying.

[@alexthekitsune8740]

Thanks Ash my brother uses strongman arguments all the time

[@AshCoyote]

A lot of folks do

[@EeroafHeurlin]

strongman or strawman ? The opposite of strawman is generally considered "steelman", in which you take the most generous and reasonable interpretation you can manage of the other sides argument and then argue you points based on that. Which is not a fallacy but a tactic to improve your own arguments.

[@alexthekitsune8740]

@@EeroafHeurlin strawman sorry typo

[@Armsmen]

Way too much people do.

[@DJ_MaryaleeScarlet]

It's like the classic internet meme: "I like waffles." "Oh, so you hate pancakes." "Nah, dude, that's a completely separately sentence."

[@AshCoyote]

REAL

[@VintageFenrir]

I know a common tactic used on Tumblr back in the day, is they would make two responses to what you said. If you only answered one that meant you were dodging the question. If you did answer both, that meant you were scattered and off topic.

[@ArlauxWitchdog]

I’m sorry your being put into callouts for posting what is, essentially, very basic information about ABDL and babyfur. This is a growing trend I’ve been seeing where people simply do not care what is truthful or right, they simply care to ostracize whoever is on their bad side. Keep being brave, and keep being you. The world only gets better if those who have voices speak up in support of those who do not. I feel that this will only get worse, speaking as an aspiring sexologist and paraphile. Communities have been getting more repressive for a long time, and while that’s always been the case it feels like there’s far too little pushback now.

[@xanderwusky]

Asking if you have ever ran into a strawman argument is like asking if you have a twitter account

[@EthelredFlametail]

They is that and I have been strawmaned before. They is also confusion defusion. Basically if drama is been thrown at you, you say something that doesn't make sence. The people get confused and it defuses the agument. I have done this but remeber it dose not allways work. The partisepent could come back to you angry and confused so keep that in mind if you are going to do this.

[@carnelianfox5010]

“Back in my day, real men were made of straw.” How those arguments sound to me, especially when discussing masculinity and queerness.

[@AshCoyote]

Yeahhhhhhhh its a lot of cursed

[@lonewolfofficial6058]

Happy October Ash, hope your Halloween will be a good one too!

[@AshCoyote]

I am doing great lone wolf, hope you are well too

[@monopolisticfox]

I'm actually grateful you made that video, despite the backlash of some people. Honestly, "Furries" who have a negative view of the ABDL community are honestly hypocrites considering furries have also been plagued with misconceptions, and they're just doing the same. I'd expect better from one of the most welcoming communities. On another note, from someone who's in both communities, thank you so much for everything you do in the furry community

[@baphnedia]

Knowing when to walk away is very important. There are few things that can result in being considered "dumber than a pooltoy" and relying on strawman arguments is one such. ^_^

[@AshCoyote]

yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[@arvurebantra7639]

Hey now... I have pooltoy furry friends... lol

[@LashynAndOliver]

Strawman and slippery slope is the best duo since peanut butter and jelly.

[@8L0ND1E_WOLF]

I've gotten into a strawman argument with my older brother. I argued that I didn't like The Acolyte after watching the first episode and reading some reviews, and explained with evidence and backed up my opinion with my own experience in a college film class. Then he tried to invalidate my opinion by saying just because the majority thinks the show sucks, I'm just following the crowd and don't think for myself. Then he asked all these "gotcha" questions trying to find something to attack me with. I felt like I was getting bullied because my opinions on film are always unpopular with him.

[@JediOttselWaluigikid115]

@8LOND1E_WOLF your opinion of the Acolyte is valid and you’re not alone. Me and my father are avid Star Wars nerds and I think we watch either 4 or 5 episodes of the Acolyte and we both agreed it sucked and stop watching it after that. We both have many different reasons as to why we did not like the Acolyte and agree on some of each other’s points.

[@BioniclesaurKing4t2]

When defending against a strawmanned response to your point, don't say "that's not what I meant to say", as that could be used to imply you misspoke and undermine any future things you say as "maybe you misspoke again, so why should it be taken at face value". If you know you did not misspeak and they either misheard, misinterpreted, or knowingly misrepresented, instead respond with the slightly different but infinitely more accurate, "that's not what I said", flat out, maybe with an "and you know it" if needed; what you meant was clearly laid out, the fault lies with them, convey this either subtly or directly. Or perhaps, agree with their point: "Yeah, that sounds terrible, but it also sounds fake. What's actually happening is…", which is a tactic they may not be prepared for. If you know they're not arguing from an honest position, the only reason to engage is either to troll them back or to demonstrate their argument as being in bad faith to any audience there may be so they can't be misled.

[@AshCoyote]

Good point! I think thats a clever way of handling it

[@Silkyfur]

I often just walk away in frustration, as discussing a topic with someone who deliberately uses strawman arguments is like trying to persuade a flat-earther to realize that the earth is round. But I really like the "Yeah, that sounds terrible, but it also sounds fake. What's actually happening is…"-tactic that you mention. I am going to try that some time. Thank you for sharing this!

[@pantern2]

My father does Strawman arguments a lot. But he is really bad at it. When you call him out on it, which I do, he inevitably ends up wanting to stop discussing the issue at all.

[@alexthefox2550]

I’ll be honest… I’ve never knew there was a name for people that did that kind of thing or act like that but this taught me something new but think just facing them would hurt my brain so might try just going back on topic nicely if it ever happens. Thanks very much for teaching me something new Ash

[@AshCoyote]

Glad I could help some

[@shutterwolf]

If my strawman experience on Friday taught me anything, there are people that want to dominate and control over every aspect of your life. My intent was to advise my followers going to BLFC of a controversial candidate being at the hotel leading into the weekend. Individual accuses me of supporting candidate, which is grossly wrong and I would even say is defamatory, IN short, they were blocked. I believe it's about power and control through suppressing your information or with misinformation.

[@AshCoyote]

Its better to just block and walk away tbh

[@FrozEnbyWolf150-b9t]

As a former debate bro (don't worry, I got better) I can spot a strawman or any other logical fallacy a light year away. I tend to call them out right away, as this takes the wind out of the sails of chuds who claim to have "facts and logic" on their side. I will still explain why they're wrong, and bring up actual statistics, studies, and reporting, but it's not for their sake. It's for the sake of anyone else listening, so they don't get fooled by the fallacies and disinformation being disseminated.

[@StarMystro]

This is a great topic, not even pertaining to furry or lgtb. Really liked how you promoted peace and not to argue. Most times, it’s not worth fighting with someone.

[@AshCoyote]

Thank you!

[@arvurebantra7639]

The easiest strawman for people to use is taking the worst example of something, and framing it as if that's the norm. One of the worst examples is what is going on in trans conversations. The immediate jump to "You're trying to get kids surgeries" and "Forcing kids who are gender non-conforming to be trans" comes from stories where that may have happened (though those stories are often warped too) The most recent one I've seen involves a certain well known streamer and his comments on Palestine. The immediate jump I've seen from his defenders is to point out the terrorists as if the extremists represent all Muslim people. It's like all these strawman arguments immediately jump to the extreme examples. It's sickening. Edit because I forgot to mention it: The stigma of ABDL and such actually hurts me and others like me who sometimes regress in age (And I also have a form of dysphoria involving my age) due to past trauma and mental health issues. I don't go full baby in my case, but it still is something I have to keep to myself due to the stigma around it.

[@iseneau27]

I find the downright discriminating hate AB/DL people get by furries so painfully ironic due to how the furry fandom itself constantly has to deal with outside hate. Thanks for making this video, Ash! I respect the stuff you make! 🧡

[@AshCoyote]

The irony of it all is pretty absurd

[@Ploxtifs_OldAndDeadAccountXD]

Remember, bringing up genuine concerns about certain issues in debates doesn’t automatically make it a strawman argument. Pointing out SOME inevitable end results isn’t a strawman argument either. The slippery slope exists for a reason, and pretending it doesn’t exist is dishonest at best and concealing malicious intent at worst. Bringing up certain historical patterns doesn’t make it a strawman argument either. I’ve had to deal with my fair share of Strawman arguments against me, and I’ve personally found debunking them as the most effective method to deal with them. If the person is wrong, and their argument is based on such bad-faith arguments, and any point they do have is built on yet more falsehoods, then it is really easy to knock down their entire argument as a whole like a house made of “straw”. I personally try to avoid such things by choosing my words wisely, and ensuring that any point that MIGHT be misconstrued can be easily rectified by pointing to the original wording. Is it unsportsmanlike to create such “vague” but clear statements/points where either way, you are still correct? Certainly, and I enjoy using it against scam artists who promote thievery and servitude(marxists).

[@HarrisonPeloso]

thank you Ash

[@AshCoyote]

You're welcome 😊

[@october3122]

Definitely really enjoyed this video. Another topic you can talk about is the fallacies. Often, fallacies are used alongside strawmen. But once you start to spot, them start to say, "Yeah, those are fallacies and don't really support your argument."

[@longWriter]

I remember strawman arguments listed as one of many logical fallacies in my Intro to Logic course in college; there were a couple that got named but never expounded upon because they were apparently _that_ appalling to the professor: With the context in mind that we'd been talking about being on the horns of a dilemma at the time, two dilemma-counters he mentioned were "Singing the Bull to Sleep" and "Throwing Sand in the Bull's Eyes". ...Definitely philosophy-jargon; you'd never hear _those_ phrases in a business course!

[@Nahyoudontgetthat]

Ooooh yeah..... love it when people use this to make arguments about people who haven't even spoken yet too! Complete fabrication of actions, reasons, designs, and even thoughts! It's popularized in movies and shows, but if you know what to look for, can be neutralized and turned around quite easily. I had someone do this while I was dressed as a clown..... had him wondering where his jeans came from by the end of it!

[@Sqwirrel_Bonez]

“So what you’re saying is *not what you said at all* “

[@sleepyote]

Great explanation on what a strawman is.

[@AshCoyote]

Glad you think so!

[@IonOtter]

I wish you'd left the comments open. That way, we can see who's doing this.

[@Talkshowhorse_Echna]

Depending on how people use tactics like strawman arguments or other logical fallacies, I try to give them a chance and point out its not worth much. Some people want a real discussion and tahts fine, but most react bad to that point and tahts when I just let them be and go. Remeber sometimes blocking problematic people keeps the problem short.

[@AshCoyote]

I just block folks and move on these days

[@joeyschelz9491]

Aaaye good to see ya again, Ash (even tho its video) and great topic as always..very much appreciated over here!!!*huge hugs

[@RubeusArchos]

Trump is all about that straw man life.

[@marco_mouse]

Every day on counterstrike lol

[@AshCoyote]

You aren’t wrong

[@chris_is_here_oh_no]

Excellent video, very well put definition!

[@AshCoyote]

Thank you kindly!

[@Vaniaomega]

Can't wait to see how Twitter reacts to this one 🥲

[@AshCoyote]

probably with more strawman arguments

[@stazanimations7211]

Strongman argument.... My father use it 😢 Too much

[@FrostfireTheKannik]

Oh I gotta remember this!

[@soulsolis3096]

Furry Dramas have been a way for me to Detach myself not just to this community but every community in general. I am my own being, and will keep using this pfp I have just to interact online without my IRL face. But I refuse to blong to anyone or any community anymore. I'll only do what makes me happy and keep on looking at furry arts online from the way my brain is, sorry not sorry.

[@Florisgrad]

Interesting choice to use an AI image for the strawman, really drives home the point of "I made this guy up, be afraid". EDIT: oops it was just photoshop, my bad

[@AshCoyote]

no worries! It is just a really weird photo bash I am thinking about doing a video on how I make these at some point.

[@DragonFinlay]

I'd love to walk away, but what if others are involved? Perhaps people who are close to you, or whose opinion you value? Walking away looks like you're "giving up", or worse, the fact that you have nothing to say against it might seem like you don't disagree? I often feel cornered like that, and I don't feel like walking away is really the best decision... Any advice?

[@peacefulfungoloid8624]

Whenever I give my opinions or perspectives on social media posts or political messages, I feel like some people paint me as an enemy even though I don't want to make enemies with anyone, (I simply have no filter and never will.) I think everything should speak their minds, but also engaging in healthy conversations instead of taking your words in bad faith.

[@AshCoyote]

Its just not worth engaging if they cant have a good faith discussion without digging in

[@Cryobolt]

Strawmanning and ad hominem attacks are the yin and yang of lazy arguments.

[@jonotwist]

Well said, a short, succinct, and impactful message. "Oh you have a fursuit? you must have lots of money" (im kidding of course, and only slightly jealous)

[@IorekByrnison086]

Sad that people uses the straw man argument. Wish people would not use it to argue a point. And I have been hit by not one but a handful. I just say that I'm done and just walk away. Awesome video. Thanks for the advice and info. Keep up the awesome job.

[@AshCoyote]

Thanks for watching!

[@IorekByrnison086]

@@AshCoyote You're welcome.

[@Spykersan]

Hah, yeah. that is one of many kinds of bad arguments or reasoning out there. Lots of logical fallacies to keep track of sometimes. You get a lot of that within religious discussions as well as political, though certainly by no means the only ones.

[@AHylianWarrior]

Gen AI used for the thumbnail...of course... Is it THAT hard to make a thumbnail of "that"??

[@AshCoyote]

It's photoshopped, I shared my work on my community tab

[@wren1048]

I haven’t watched the video yet, and I’m making a big assumption here, but I’d really discourage against using AI art in your thumbnails, or in your videos at all!

[@AshCoyote]

The only AI used in this thumbnail is the neural filters settings in photoshop the rest is a frankly quite lazy photobash of myself, my husbands old fursuit and a terrible picture of my hand that has been painted with the dodge and burn tool.

[@wren1048]

@@AshCoyote I see, thanks so much for responding! There is a common blurriness in AI art that caught my eye here, especially where the straw is edited around the hat and clothes.

[@AshCoyote]

Of course I mostly just use adobe photoshops built in functions and adobe stock. I shared my work on the community tab if you would like to take a look, the comp is a MESS.

[@wren1048]

@@AshCoyote I saw, thanks for sharing! I believe Adobe Stock has been generous in AI usage, so if that’s where you got the scarecrow image from, that might explain the telltale blurriness!

[@AshCoyote]

It is and I just realized that looking through their catalogue a bit closer. I will discontinue my use of adobe stock moving forward.

[@RileyDia]

I recently made a video about Babyfurcon and their history of racist sponsors. You should do some research on that!

[@AshCoyote]

I will look into that thank you for the tip

[@RileyDia]

@AshCoyote I appreciate it! really like your videos!

[@williamcaya]

Please do a video about Doffa since he was an australian artist that i used to be interested in his artworks but disabled his Furaffinity account around september 11th 2024 only leaving his deviantart account and email adress and he recently turned 37.

[@null.psyche]

There are points in here where you’re mixing the slippery slope argument in with the strawman

[@funnysillyclown]

The way this video instantly has me *actually* peeved because of the AI image in the thumbnail.. you couldn’t do that in photoshop? This is so disappointing :( Respect art and artists and stand up against AI imagery

[@AshCoyote]

That is done in photoshop? I just cut out myself and a old fursuit picture I had and photo bashed it on a scarecrow from photoshop. You can see my slopy cut out job around the hat and ears. I did use their neural filters to clean stuff up though maybe thats what you are noticing?

[@funnysillyclown]

@@AshCoyoteah yeah, that must be it. I’d still probably advise against those filters though even if just for the sake of image quality, it makes the entire image look like it was generated by AI instead of just partly, which is seen as pretty unprofessional. Sorry I assumed it was all AI, don’t mean any harm

[@Vaniaomega]

@AshCoyote are you sure the Scarecrow you got wasnt AI? Google has been pushing AI images lately. I only say that because I think it looks partially like AI too

[@AshCoyote]

I mean it could be I just found it on the internet tbh. Let me try to back track and find it again. I shared my work on the community tab if you would like to see how I made the photo bash

[@MrBelkanwar]

There are books with literal gay sex for kids, they are kids they shouldnt be seeing that at your ages. They are KIDS. Some people use the LGBT rights to push things like that.

[@lady_draguliana784]

I like to keep this handy for whenever there's an argument to be had: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies