FUTURE OF THE DARK ANGELS! THE PRICE OF THE HUNT FOR LUTHER?

[@Deathwing-Y2K]

I've always imagined that the Dark Angels never actually broke up their legion. They just pretended to and operated in smaller groups, but we're still one full legion.

[@augiechiavuzzi4907]

That's actually how they operate the dark angels main chapter is the one in charge and all the rest listen to them like a captain of the dark angels holds more rank over chapter masters of successor chapters and the inquisition don't like that

[@MSte21]

I think that's canon more or less. The Unforgiven consists of every single Dark Angels Successor Chapter, and ultimately answer to the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels. Pretty sure the Ordo Hereticus already knows and heavily dislikes the Dark Angels for that (and everything else).

[@MWH12085]

Basically that's how they operate. The chapters act more like Companies with The Dark Angeles acting as the 1st Company.

[@tflwulf69]

I imagine the imperial fists to do the same especially with the last wall protocol, would not surprise me if the blood angels and well everyone except the ultramarines are the same. I can imagine however that the blood angels will reform into a legion because of the shit position in the galaxy they currently are and lets not forget that the space wolves never stopped being a legion, just like they never stopped using psykers even after nikea, because, well they are wolf priests not psykers, but the space wolves always did what the fuck they wanted to anyway. The Lion will never be turned but his legion might, a space wolf....I'd rather book a two week break in commorragh than try to turn a space wolf to chaos. Not saying it's impossible to turn a space wolf but you got more chance of coming out of commorragh alive and in one piece.

[@tflwulf69]

@@MSte21 In fairness the ordo hereticus hate everything as standard procedure.

[@DanteMac26]

Quick side note, Azrael is the only Supreme Grand Master. All the other Unforgiven chapter masters are Grand Masters. Sammael and Belial are also Grand Masters, while all other company captains are Masters. So the Angels of Absolution for example are led by a Grand Master, while their Deathwing and Ravenwing companies are led by Masters. This is a little nod to the fact that Unforgiven are still a Legion in fact, if not in name. Edit: Also, didn't GW talk about how a bunch of the Primaris were taken from the Legions during the Scouring era? And that many of the others were taken from the Chapters over the intervening ten thousand years? So theoretically there might actually be some marines who were Black Princes of Terra and are now Dark Angel successor Primaris. And those would probably know more than even Azrael about the hidden history of the Dark Angels.

[@ShadrackMeduson]

the more i read the origin of this conflict during the horus heresy the more i realise its just the dumbest missunderstanding in the history of 40k. the fallen: we betrayed the imperium because we believe the lion knew caliban would blow up and he left us on the planet to die weeeeeee the lion: i left them there because.......i forgot.

[@kelman727]

He didn’t, and many of them joined Corswain before reinforcing Terra during the Siege.

[@Subject_Keter]

It weird how some stuff is solid, some like Angron treatment is "abit iffy but holds up" and thay is like "We came up with Traitors and now fit that Mold!"

[@chuck2703]

Lion sends Luther back in exile to train troops. Luther was supposed to spend his exile to atone for betraying the Lion by not giving 100% loyalty. The Lion views everything as black and white. Spoiler : In the book Luther, they go deeper into what happened. The troops were to be reserves for the Lion. Corswain came to caliban to mention that. However, through Typhus, Cypher and Astelan the reserve were a mix of troops who either were pro Luther, thought the Lion had turned or were defending themselves from the Lion as they missed how Astelan fired into the fleet. There's definitely a huge misunderstanding but I think magnus takes that cake.

[@alphaomega938]

Child’s understanding of the lore, Astelan seething, @Chuck is the only one here who gets it

[@Slightlyanxious]

He also saw the taint of chaos in them when he first took them into battle. He wouldn't talk or even look at them all the way home. Caliban was one of the most chaos active planets that any Primarch landed on. He knew the taint of chaos better than most.

[@HeroRyzeD]

I don’t actually think Cypher is actually fallen, more like he’s seen events as they unfolded and seeks the path to awaken the Lion, I think trying to seek an audience with Papa E was part of that plan

[@themasterninja110]

I agree with this sentiment.

[@EvolvedTactical]

You're right that Cypher isn't one of the Fallen, but that's because he's actually Omegon.

[@themachine7534]

Cypher has to be corswain . Zahariel is stated as having died in the battle for caliban , holguin also . Redloss becomes 1st supreme grand master of the dark angels and dies later after the heresy era . Corswain fought in the battle for caliban is the lions closest son and is unaccounted for . ( also a good reason why gulliman didnt recongnise him in gathering storm) they never met in the heresy whereas holguin and redloss met roboute in the imperium secundus shenanegans ..

[@themasterninja110]

@@themachine7534 he didn't though. He survived. Somehow. At the very end

[@timothylyons5686]

It was rumoured ( in the book Shroud of Night) that the Alpha Legion had all marks of suits of armour from all 20 legions.and they could have been responsible for the destruction of Caliban.

[@erih2934]

Here my take on this whole thing: Dark Angels vs Fallen will be the big 10th Edition Campaign. And actually it will come with proper Dark Angel Primaris and the Horus Heresy Fallen minis - the current Heresy Codex doesn't have a traitor option for the Dark Angels contrary to many other loyalists, so I bet they will get their own supplement in some form. This will be the time they actually drop also the Dark Angel Heresy stuff (like we have currently a slight push for Imperial Fists and Sons of Horus, but I expect significanlty more to come over time). This way players for both 40k and 30k get proper Fallen minis. You can add a Fallen Kill Team to the mix and use the whole 40k Story to revoke the Heresy feeling in 40k as well with Luther and the Lion getting models to celebrate the big release. I wouldn't be surprised we see Azrael turned into a Primaris like Rho suggested. Though I don't see any major deal for the Unforgiven - people underestimate how important loyalty is to them. That's why they can't look past the Fallen even though other chapters had traitors as well, but as sons of the Lion its in their genes to put loyality above anything else - call it their flaw I guess. Otherwise they would be just the first and the ones who actually set the standard for the Angels of Death. Cypher will turn out to be a repenting Zahariel, who helped gathering the Fallen for the Lion to crush those corrupted by Chaos, handing him the sword back. I don't know if there will be more to the sword - like the theory of Cypher forcefully 'rebooting' the Emperor by killing him - maybe. But I think this will be the mega invent to push all 40k related product ranges droping some big names as minis. This is at least what makes the most sense for me if they have not used the upcoming Chaos codex to somehow make money out of the storybuild up so far. It would be wasted otherwise and this way it would cross promote several gamesystems at once.

[@udp1073]

another YT channel released an interesting theory about who Cypher really is.. one that make a lot of sense in terms of general lore, dark angel lore and Cypher helping Guilliman lore.. if that YT theory will prove true, it will make a lot of sense for GW because, as you said, it will let them revamp a lot of models with more returned primarchs, more established character that will be upgraded to primaris and then some..

[@erih2934]

@@apollo5224 not sure if he meant this one - but damn, major kill has convinced me with his new video :D kzbin.info/www/bejne/qH_Lf6qJj6d5fLM

[@udp1073]

@@apollo5224 sir I don't like to link another creator video on any page but I will give you the name of the channel: majorkill

[@Dragoth1337]

He never has to say or admit Luther was alive in the rock. He just has to say he is back and they need to adress it. In the end it was 10k years ago and it wasn't Azriel who who kept him alive.

[@davidd1195]

Simply put, Luther been left alive was due to the fact that the Lion only may pass judgement upon him. The others will understand that.

[@postwar142]

There's no reason why the Darks Angels chapter would know that Luthor was held captive unless Azrael told them and there's no reason why he would do that. So that theory is bunk. I just hope the Fallen thing ends. My bet is an epic last battle or accepting the unforgiven back into the chapter by the Lion. Then launching a massive crusade. I think Luthor will die regardless if either happens. As for Cypher I think he's a loyalist being guided by visions of the future (maybe Big E?) to set up events and kill certain individuals to prevent worse things from happening.

[@georgiots1409]

Good point. Why does he have to tell them anything? He's the only one who knows Luthor was imprisoned in the Rock. He could tell them anything about Luthor reappearing. He's not above lying.

[@CynUnion-ji9uj]

part of me thinks it would be funny if the Dark Angels secret gets revealed and Guilliman is just like "So what? it was 10,000 years ago, guys. besides, literally every Legion had traitors. it's NBD"

[@SEBWS]

That unforgiven summit idea sounds a bit perfect for a Lion El Johnson reveal 👀

[@jonbauml225]

I love it when you predict future events. They feel like whole stories. I can't wait to hear what other future events you foresee

[@georgiots1409]

I think we're going to be waiting quite some time to see a resolution with this plot thread. Keep in mind there's been allusions to Fulgrim running around and it seems Angron is entering the picture in game before him. There are a lot of threads that may not ever get resolved either. I do hope it does get resolved in a novel. I'm also skeptical of the Lion coming back too. I've heard the rumors for years. I'll believe it when I have his model in my hand.

[@eichler721]

Would love some interaction between Azriel and Dante during the Dark Angels assault in the Imperium Nighalis

[@Deathwing-Y2K]

It doesn't seem likely that the Fallen have a legion sized army. When they turned against the Legion, they had around 20-30000 marines. With the battle for caliban, and its destruction, they would have taken losses. In the ten thousand years since the fall, they would have lost marines. Maybe they could have recruited new aspirants, but it seems very unlikely they would have more than their original numbers.

[@markcoroneos7811]

Also have to remember that “legion sized” simply means larger than a codex standard chapter. The astral claws were “legion building”, but had few marines than either the BT or SW.

[@danceswithgerbals1]

Ya I have thought this as well. In reality the Fallen should actually be incredibly depleted. By all accounts the Fallen where kinda getting butchered before Caliban broke and hundreds if not thousands have been hunted down since then. I think that the Fallen are kind of getting the good ol' WHF High Elves treatment. The High Elves were always "diminishing" and if a few hundred fell in a battle it would be considered a great loss. Then at other times tens of thousands of them would go to war and thousands would fall and it would be "Meh..", so fans got around to asking about this discrepancy and GW stated that there would always be enough High Elves as the plot needed. I think the Fallen are the same way. If you considered their original numbers, then start counting down, it seems like they should have around probably 5k-10k left (siding with generosity), but I think they will be as big or small as the story needs them to be.

[@maxwellfujs6124]

10k years is a long time and the Fallen are reclusive. I could see it happening.

[@markcoroneos7811]

@@danceswithgerbals1 we say “WHF elf treatment” but it’s basically just every race of each franchise haha. There shouldn’t logically be that many CSM, or eldar but there will always be enough for the sake of plot 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@danceswithgerbals1]

@@markcoroneos7811 Completely true

[@messageinthebottle1673]

Dark angels are my most favorite first founding chapter due to the fact they're based on knights and keeps secrets very seriously. On top of this they're literally the frist space marine and are blessed with superior technologies even have gears that dates back the dark age of technology on top of this in recent lore update, they're called the emperor's personal exterminators! Which makes me love them ❤ even more! Very happy that dark angel primarch is still alive and sleeping 😴 in the rock soo just waiting for lore update and curious how he will interact with his brother Guilliman.

[@rankcolour8780]

Are they the first though? That depends on whether Alpharius is telling the truth, or not.

[@samueldoran7712]

El'Johnson and his eternal nap is stupid. The dark Angel's are liars and idiots. "Let's leave multiple worlds to suffer and die so we can catch a single warrior!! Haha.. get fucked our Imperiam while we catch and interrogate one warrior! Catching one line soldier is worth a WHOLE STAR system!!"

[@northernnaysayer1240]

@@rankcolour8780 Alpharius being found first doesn’t mean the Alpha Legion were the ‘First Legion’, or Legion 1, because Lion wasn’t the first Primarch reportedly found, that was Horus. The first legion basically refers to them being the first fully functional Terran Legion that the Emperor subsequently used to subjugate the Sol system(or at least for Luna, Jupiter’s moons and maybe Titan) whilst recruiting and training for the other 19 Legions continued or got started on Terra. I haven’t read it yet but I think the new Sigismund book is meant to cover the Terran recruitment process for the initial iterations of the 20 legions. I’m pretty sure the Valdor book more or less fully covers the formation of the First Legion after the betrayal of Astartes.

[@rankcolour8780]

​@@northernnaysayer1240 if you beleive he was found first then it does, they show Alpharius the marines they are making before the Legions were a thing, if you believe the book the DA are called the first but aren't really. In this case they are called the 1st because the Lion was Primarch number 1, his test tube was test tube number 1 not because they were the 1st legion to exist. But shhhh don't tell them after all no ones knows about the secret 1st legion or who the 1st Primarch to be found was ....if you believe the book that is.

[@scragglefoot2179]

I think Cypher will sneak into the rock when the majority of dark angels are off fighting the fallen. Once he is there he will wake the lion and use him to get a meeting with the emperor where he will tell the emperor of the fallen and beg forgiveness.

[@Archon3960]

Let us hope that Guilliman never learns that Azrael wanted to blow him up... x) And also, using the Fallen another Chaos Marines faction is a _huge_ wanted potential imo. The Fallen, aside from a few ones, never fell to Chaos during the Heresy. They were tricked into rebellion. But hey, Geedubs and subtility often makes two. 😎

[@johnpyrett4017]

Gw really needs to give the fallen a new color scheme to help make them more unique. Can you imagine a real battle on the table top. "Hey is that my model?" Opponent "maybe?"

[@udp1073]

and then some Alpha legion in between them all to stir things up..

[@johnpyrett4017]

@@udp1073 who? (Laughs at inside joke.)

[@Archon3960]

They also need to not make them a generic "haha evil Chaos Marines faction." I am getting tired of Chaos' lack of subtlety (yes, even Tzeentch) and being often not much more than mustache-twirling villains.

[@postwar142]

How are they not unique?

[@Archon3960]

@@postwar142 GW can't write anything about them without making the Dark Angels seem like traitors and/or idiots x)

[@UntiltedName]

I thought Cypher was merely a title or a position within the ranks of the pre-Heresy Dangles. Whoever takes up the title scrubs their past identity. Does any current lore acknowledge that? Who could he be, if so? I never understood why he was in my codex, nobody ever uses him.

[@Marcusjnmc]

Cypher has been a single marine , a survivor of the heresy , for all the time since , his identity shrouded in the past

[@comradeweismann6947]

ASMODAI! OUR ASSUMPTIONS ARE CONFIRMED! HE HAS A SUSPICIOUS BOOK! HE'S IN CAHOOTS WITH THE FALLEN! MAKE HIM REPENT!

[@HuntersOfTheNorth1]

INTERROGATE? WHAT? BOOK! FALLEN! *REPENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNT*

[@Adeptusmetallicus90]

Supreme Grand Master Azrael revealing the most secret of secrets to the Grand Masters BELOW him and them feeling betrayed afterwards because they weren't told something they weren't supposed to know in a strictly secret and hyerarchical order of secrecy. You truly are a Wolf, Lord.

[@Furzkampfbomber]

Apart from this being an, as always, quite interesting and fun to listen to video, seriously, Dark Angels being cool and all that, but this must be the worst He-Man impersonation I have ever seen (and can't unsee). Oh and apart from _that,_ I agree with the notion that Luther requires the comeback of a Primarch, because you know what Luthor needs in order to calm down, think about what he did and repent? A hug. Vulkan li-hiiives, STOMP STOMP!

[@lface7426]

Here's a crazy way this could go: with everything thats going on in the galaxy right now Azrael helped Luther escape or at least made it possible to try and awaken the Lion. Lion wakes Luther escapes again and the Lion thanks Azrael for helping him awaken and the takes his head.

[@chuckmarcinko723]

I would love to see a new starter of horus heresy dark angels lead by Luther against primaris dark angels let by primaris Azrael. It would be a great start to GW finally releasing the Lion but with 2 body sculpts. One in his HH outfit and the other in his 40k era new outfit. They way he can decide which group is the true Dark Angels to lead and annihilate the others.

[@Knight-chaplainashriel]

Holy Terra! 2 days in a row talking about the first, oh happy day!!!!

[@cory7328]

Never thought about it till now . I’d like to get a Luther model for CSM. He could accept the gifts do Chaos and start to gather the Fallen together.

[@christopherhartford5066]

I actually think the Dark Angels respect need-to-know more than anyone. I can see some being pissed, but I can't see a proper son of the Lion turning on the wardens of the last piece of Caliban.

[@leatherjacket9]

How are there so many fallen? During the heresy the lion battled Luther and their forces. They both took losses. But for over ten thousand years the DA have been able to replenish their forces while hunting down and diminishing fallen forces. How are the original fallen replenishing their forces? Or is any fresh recruit to current veteran that falls to chaos considered one of the fallen?

[@northernnaysayer1240]

Because the Legions were massive and Luther kept holding back replenishments the Lion requested, indoctrinating them and pressing them into his cause, I don’t think there’s ever been any numbers put down on the fallen but there could easily be as many as 10-50 thousand and we would have no idea, after all Caliban was meant to be prepared to receive a full legion at all times. God knows how they manage to keep up the numbers though, perhaps there were lots to begin with, perhaps whenever they fall to Chaos they’re classed as Fallen, perhaps entire Chapters of the Unforgiven have fallen due to Cypher simply telling them the truth? In all fairness I’ve never heard of the Fallen massing in anything larger than a squad sized unit before this current storyline.....

[@donset3627]

I think Majorkill has a nice theory going on current Cypher's identity, that being Omegon who is not Alpharius

[@hawk4192]

Agreed. Would be a wonderful twist of the plot without being cringe.

[@Archon3960]

Or maybe he is, given his Primarch novel's revelations. 😎

[@hansallen2708]

I just want the Lion to come back if the Dark Angels become the focus. Even as a son of the Warhawk I'm tired of all the daemon Primarchs coming back with Guilliman being the only Loyalist to face them. One of the Loyal sons should have returned a long time ago.

[@OutspokenSeeker]

It doesn’t help that Guilliman is arguably the most boring Primarch in terms of his abilities. He’s the administrator, the organiser. He is effectively Malcador without the spying, powers and ruthlessness. The Lion is perhaps one of the greatest strategists around and a warrior who out-hunted Curze himself. The Khan is one of the most dynamic souls, Dorn was the Primarch who defended Terra against the full might of Horus’ gathered force. Guilliman was the guy who fumbled on even sustaining a back up Empire and split up the Legions.

[@alb0195]

just in time

[@codybates2419]

Cypher is likely Omegon. His skills are well above standard Space Marine. We don't see any warp shenanigans with him that support him being Zaharaiel.

[@tomdolan9761]

I don’t think keeping Luther alive and imprisoned as a secret would be the cause of dissatisfaction among Dark Angels at large so much as the incompetence of allowing him to escape.

[@matthewharr6881]

I can't think of a better time for the lion to return, it's probably going to be a bit more complicated then we think. People want more Primearcs they sell.

[@dalejrose1287]

Dark angels; the traitors were the people we recruited along the way..

[@Crimson_Loki]

What I don't see anyone anyone here discussing is the fact that if the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven were to gather and start mobilizing this is gonna be a big enough event that there's no way it'll go unnoticed by Guilliman and the rest of the Imperium. Yes they've currently been thrown into chaos (pun not intended) and they're busy trying to put out a bunch of fires but when one of your biggest and strongest chapters and their successors start leaving battlefields to start gathering in legion strength and then moving in one direction, that's gonna raise quite a few eyebrows. I could see Guilliman potentially following the DAs into the Somnium Stars and pulling their ass out of the fire if things go wrong, potentially leading to an out and out reveal of their secret past. That or Guilliman reveals to Azrael that he always knew and chose to keep it to himself. Kinda like it's implied that he knows about the Black Rage and the Wulfen thanks to Cawl and the Primaris.

[@mathewfitzpatrick5645]

Plot pitch: Azrael reveals Luthar was sleeping in the basement, the grand master of the primaris forgiven unforgiven chapter starts Salamander laughing. "Ah, I now see why you deem yourselves. Brothers, was I the only one to not know of this?" Successor chapter master 1: "No." Successor 2: "This is news to me. *shoots venomous glare at Azrael*" Forgiven CM: "Well then, let us set out. Once we have Luthar back in his cage we will have MUCH to discuss."

[@fixedG]

Yeah, I don't expect another loyal Primarch return either, at least never any overlap. Like Guilleman is swallowed by the Great Rift and lost in the Warp trying to return from the Dark Imperium and reunite with the newly awakened Lion. I think the writers could do a lot of interesting things with the Star Child. He/she gets a number of loyal Primarch as father figures in turn, and they're all just as poor fathers as the Emperor was for one reason or another, and they're ripped away and replaced by some other surrogate father shortly after.

[@andrewjones4568]

I hope that the real intentions of Cypher and the Fallen become known to us after the Horus Heresy books finish. I would really like to start a Fallen army but I would want to better understand their motivations first. They don’t need to reveal everything but I do need a bit more to go on

[@eugenax9345]

Unforgiven rebellion? :D in chapter with mottoes like: Loyalty is its own reward? A moment az laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy? If you live in a culture where secrets are everything, you don't get mad on just another level of secrecy.

[@subzero47pl]

Maybe Unforgiven vs Fallen will start at the end of 9th edition like part 1 when Azrael fight Luther loses like Luther beats him then leaves him cause he waiting for Lion and anyone else is unworthy is his eyes. Then Azraels gets the primaris upgrade at still trys hunting Luther so in part to during 10th edition they fight agian on Rock because Luther looking ther for Lion and Azrael gets kicked around bearly hold his own then Lion finally wakes up and saves Azrael ass.

[@isawaryokage]

I don't think the Unforgiven would blame Azrael or the Dark Angels for a secret. If there are Chapters who understand the value or necessity of a secret it's the Unforgiven. But I do see them rallying together to purge the Fallen. I also think there aren't enough forces in the Unforgiven to fight a Legions worth of Fallen, specially under Luther, who was a genious strategist. Also if the story they're going for is a "rematch" between the Lion and Luther, we're going to have to wait until those stories come out in the Black Library after the Siege of Terra. So it could take a few years until we see the Lion in 40k. Has for Cypher, I think it would be cool if he sacrifices himself to defeit Luther (with the intervention of watchers in the Dark, somehow), give the Chaos Gods a middle finger, makeing sure the Lion wins and returns to the Imperium.

[@Benwatling]

This will hopefully be the story used to bring about 10th edition of 40k.

[@manosanastasiou4405]

Wishful thinking although every1s talking that blood angel garbage yeah they the original 3rd edition army n look cool for the kids in red wich I was 1 of but then I read my angels of death codex both sides both storys n was fully captivated by the dark angels story it's the best 1 in 40k so like I say to you hopefully plus I love painting green but I'm doing some red 1s just for Christmas

[@Deeps__]

Plot twist. Johnson is the premark to return knowing of Luther’s escape. Asrael is saved from the wrath of the other chapters by Johnson’s return. All the chapters and a primark could take them on.

[@patch7533]

Just imagine if Luther beat Azrael, then proclaimed himself to the imperium as a returned grand master! The imperium at large would think he was a hero coming to save the day but the dark angels would know otherwise! With the lion waking up, imagine him trying to keep this a secret from guliman (sort of like a second imperium style situation .I.e. snapping of swords)

[@boxy2k8]

The Lion will return to an Unforgiven honed by Cypher into a weapon against Chaos, a blade worked and tempered against this new age of gods and daemons. The First will be united openly, the Legion it always was. And the servants of the Dark Gods will tremble as they have not in 10,000 years!

[@fishfingers4548]

Maybe it's me, but I don't see Azrael losing to Luthor in a 1-on-1 fight, Luthor is "essentially" still a human. I'm also a little skeptical that the dark powers would actively embrace Luthor at the drop of a hat. What seems more likely is that Luthor out maneuvers Azrael and the Dark Angels; the first company and second company drawn into an overwhelming battle against the fallen with Belial (the man of many sins - mostly imagined sins) falling to Luthor and his cronies. Interestingly, I don't think there are huge quantities of Fallen kicking around still, some senior figures and characters ya, but the 10 thousand year hunt has had some success. Even if you consider that something around 50% of the original Dark Angels turned traitor on Caliban there seems to be hardly any literature suggesting half a legion of Fallen kicking around. There are suggestions that the Fallen recruit new people into the fold, but c'mon... you cannot just wear some robes and paint your armour black and red and call yourself a member of the fallen . I confess that I'm still incredibly skeptical about Primaris joining the First Company, sure, I bet there's only a handful in there but it seems more likely that they'd get inducted into the Ravenwing. Hopefully we won't see Primaris terminators in the future, something that will make me cringe for weeks. Valid points regarding the Azrael model, certain Rogue Trader models looking newer by comparison

[@thelion2751]

Wanna know why I don't wake up because i hide my biggest secret...that i forget Luther was in caliban i forget there was even part of my legion there

[@orionspero560]

I think the revealing of Luther's of Luther's escape will lead to the unforgiving turning on is on as real and the dark angels. The lion will return to rescue the dark angels from the unforgiven. He will then organize the unforgiven against Luther where as real failed to failed to coordinate them. PSI think Dante somehow finds out and/or knows about the Luther (perhaps cifer told him) situation and rides to the rescue of the unforgiven who are badly damaged by their Civil War before entering the somnian stars

[@robertflynn4215]

Dark angels are the original angels of death for a reason. What ever happens in there story line, it has to go at an even pace. But don't forget the watcher's in the dark. They as well a cypher have there big parts to play. Loyalty is it's own reward ✨ 🙏 🦁☠.

[@gideonhorwitz9434]

It was the emperors design that the 1st legion was to deal with eldrich foes that the imperium should never know about there are thing in the void older and scarier than just chaos. A duty the modern dark angels have been delinquent in preforming due to the hunt for the fallen.

[@snakeyman5560]

How Luthor could beat Azrael, a chaptermaster who's held his own as Kharn the bloodied gladiator is beyond me.

[@pupysb6267]

Being that the Custodes have spies amongst the serfs of most chapters, including the Imperial Fists, they probable have a couple on the Rock, so they could easily be the ones who find out whats going on with the DAs

[@kelman727]

Even the Alpha Legion never managed to infiltrate the DA’s inner circle.

[@TheLostPrimarch2nd]

Yeah.... That was a little out of the ass from the Custodes. You do not simply infiltrate the Dark Angels. If the First got infiltrated, they will know. The Firewing was part of the Hexmagrammaton after all. If they are still a mong the Chapter, is because Azrael wills it so.

[@danceswithgerbals1]

Possible, but as kelman727 pointed out even those known for trying to infiltrate have failed. The inquisition has, for quite a while, tried to find out what has been going on and all that got even a little close just disappeared. Kaldor Draigo in the Pandorax campaign is even shown to have no real idea what goes on in the inner depths of the Rock and he is you know - Draigo. I think one of the things lots of people don't think about, is that some of the greatest protectors of the DA secrets are the Watchers in the Dark. We know very little about them, but from what we have seen in their books, the Watchers are seriously no joke when it comes to warp power. Especially the kind that allows them to see into minds. They even have the ability to show the thoughts and intentions of one person to another. They completely terrify powerful demons from the warp and are the ultimate protectors of all DA secrets. Just my personal opinion, but I don't think their is a single serf in the entirety of the Imperium that the Custodes could use that could successfully infiltrate the DA. Even the DA themselves if they try and delve too deep and discover what the Watchers know, simply disappear, it talks about in in the 7th or 8th ed codex.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

I think you are on the wrong track here Rho, you're thinking like a Wolf Lord, not a Lord of Knights. If you've been in an organization that cultivates and keeps secrets as a part of its nature and vocation (intelligence work for instance), issues like this are not not unusual. We never begrudged elements of our organization for doing their job. . . which is to keep secrets. It doesn't change what actions they would take. Azrael just started that Luther was an intelligence asset, end of story. Personal interests are not valid premises for decision making on mission. This is made pretty clear in Lord of the First.

[@mio87]

Love your videos man, keep it up :-)

[@TheOtherSteel]

When I check map references on the Lexicanum for the Caliban* system and the Somnium Stars, both appear far apart and in Imperium Nihilus. Without the light of the Astronomican to assist Navigators in making warp jumps, how do they plan on getting to the Somnium Stars in a reasonable time frame? Before the Cicatrix Maledictum, I would have thought it would take several years for an amassed military fleet to get there, and before that fleet move several more years to marshal enough supply ships and materials to establish a supply chain all the way there. No supply chain, no success. After the Cicatrix Maledictum, I imagine it would take many decades or even centuries to make the journey. They might even need to reconquer, I mean pacify, former Imperial areas along the way. There are a few more decades or centuries of delay. * The Rock is mentioned as having warp drives, but its exact location is unknown to me, so I considered the distance to the Somnium Stars from the Caliban system location. Anyone marching about proclaiming themselves to be Luther is likely to be laughed at in this milieu of fragmented information and little to genuinely verify such a thing. I'd imagine the Dark Angel's at The Rock could simply state that a giant force was arising in the Somnium Stars. Any rumors arising of Luther could be dismissed as Chaos lies. Although exactly how the the information about Luther got to the top of the Dark Angels in a timely manner from so far away is difficult to understand. Luther might have used "Chaos" routes to get there quickly, but any loyal Imperial elements there would take decades or centuries to get back to the region of space around the Caliban system, if they even had a reason to go. It's not as if the Luther/Dark Angels matter is common knowledge so that local forces would send a message about Luther building up forces straight to the Dark Angels leadership half way across the galaxy. If the Dark Angels and all their successor chapters pick up and leave for the Somnium Stars, then everything they were protecting locally from all the normal dangers: Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, local Chaos, heretics, rebellions, all those go into overdrive and begin to tear down the area. Isn't one of the Tyranid fleets specifically going after the Dark Angels? They could relentlessly through themselves at any fleet formation trying to make it to the Somnium Stars until there was nothing left. I wonder if any Tyranids in the Somnium Stars area could tell the difference between Dark Angels and Chaos Dark Angels? Perhaps the Chaos Dark Angels (Fallen) in the Somnium Star also fall under the assault of Tyranid forces who hate both Chaos and the Dark Angels.

[@kelman727]

It’s called ‘Tuculcha.’

[@Hammbone-vu1yo]

Honestly I wouldn’t hate it if Luther killed Azrael and he’s just dead. No crossing the Rubicon. Belial, Sammael or Lazarus can fill Azraels role and this could usher in the Lion’s return. It would finally feel like characters can actually die. And aren’t just protected by plot armor. And they could Legends an extremely aged model. Bring in a new Lion primarch model instead, move the story along a tiny bit.

[@themasterninja110]

I'm not sure wether I want belial Ezekiel or azreal to get an update first

[@henryviiifake8244]

Dark Angels 99% of the time: 😐 Dark Angels when you mention "Luther": 🔫🤬🔫😡🔫😤

[@JonavicH]

Oh jeez, oh no... Luther is going to spill the beans on us...

[@williamscottshelton945]

would be something to see and read would be Azrael tell the other chapter masters what has happened on the rock that Luther escapes when the other Master get pissed and try to go off on him the watchers in the dark show up with a fully awake Lion El'Johnson!

[@QuantemFear]

GW spent years never moving the story forward. Wonder the chances of them going back to that, meaning DA and fallen will never actually meet in an official capacity.

[@jayallen5599]

I still think "Cypher" is gonna want to give his brothers sword back...

[@NoInfoAvail]

I can't wait till Guilliman finds out they have been hiding The Lion from him. He's gonna have one of his rage moments.

[@Darkestdarkify]

He is going to be… perturbed lol

[@kelman727]

Only even Azrael doesn’t know he’s there.

[@chrisbeau76]

I suddenly had an epitome. I don't think Azrael is going to survive which is why he didn't get a new model, Primaris or not. Instead Lazarus got updated and he is almost a spitting image of a Primaris version of Azrael. Instead I think we will get Ezekial and maybe a Asmodai/Sammael/Belial model.

[@warren2717warren]

Need a follow up video with cypher!

[@vonkug]

In the Imperium Nihilus, how would Guilliman know what they were after? They don't share. Guilliman would only celebrate standing chapters.

[@Jack-0-lantern]

Something tells me that the Angels of Absolution are going to play a bigger part in things going forward. Maybe leading a faction of the Dark Angel successor chapters that have had it with how the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven have conducted themselves in the hunt for the Fallen.

[@stephenjdutton]

Azrael crossing the rubicon? Can't those of us who prefer the first born marines have even a single special character?

[@Niteshiftmonkey]

If anything I really do Expect The Lion to return if only because him and Bobby G would headbutt so much that it would cause a schism in the Imperium. Especially if he ends up on the same side of the Eye as Dante. Dante having to Herald Forces on his side while The Lion needs to recall Dark Angel Chapters to deal with the Fallen (i.e. they’d think Horace Heresy 2.0 is happening) this would shake the high lords trust in Bobby G ability to admin the Astartes thus making him to have to make very impossible choices.

[@Niteshiftmonkey]

Poor Bobby G would be stuck on the other side of the Eye unable to confirm or Deny. While also not being able to dispatch Astartes for fear of another Istavann V trap.

[@justincombs5311]

I’m not sure about a bit rift amongst the Unforgiven. If War of Secrets is any indicator, I’m not sure that Chapter Masters who can’t be trusted would live long enough to get an invite, and this scenario assumes Azrael would even reveal the entire truth. Chapter Masters who reacted badly wouldn’t make it off the Rock.

[@macshadow1150]

If they are true sons of Lion, then most of them will be pissed off at the very least. And few ones more loyal to Guilliman may even try to tell him the truth. Even the most loyal of Dark Angels could feel betraeyed upon discovery, that one of their worst enemies was not only still alive, but also only few kilometers away

[@udp1073]

on another youtube channel about W40K, the channel owner just released a video on who Cypher is.. in the video there are many interesting plot development that I really would love to see enacted. long story short: the Lion is in a coma because his soul is shattered, less than the Emperator's one, yet shattered. Cypher asked Guilliman to have an audience with the Emperator to know what to do to awaken the Lion (Cypher never actively engaged dark angles.. he has been bad omen to them but not an all out enemy). the sowrd he carry instrumental to that (Guilliman recognize the sword). this make me think that there may be this opportunities as well: Cypher got what he ask for (in a way or another) and Lion El Johnson returns.. also, if what the yt producer is right, Cypher identity is finally revelaed and this will be a big impact.. on a business stand point it all make a lot of sense: GW make most of his money from tabletop minis.. having another primarch coming back will push that pretty well.. again, if the producer of that video is right, also Cypher identity will be a push worth a Primarch and then some.. in the lore the traitor Primarch are making a comeback, this is, obviously (and rightly) instrumental to business.. the same can be done with loyalist..

[@Blahm15]

To fool your enemies you must fool your allies too. That's why I don't see the fallen as chaos more like renegades that act as smoke screens for the true mission while not knowing that their actions are all accounted for. The Lion is setting the board right now so no need for him to step out of the shadows before he's herded the prey to where he wants. (Just my fun fan theory b/c the fallen the way they are now are boring)

[@licensed_beheader]

Nope they are as chaosy as one can be they have daemon princes and known chaos sorcerers and champions in their ranks plus their leader is also corrupted and insane . Some members are renegades just doing whatever they want but the majority are corrupted beyond redemption. I doubt the lion orchestrated this as some grand plan . So far none of the primarchs save alpharius/omegon could hatch such a scheme even the ones with prophetic powers like sanguinius and curze couldn't do it , though the emperor could use them like he did with those evil alpha legionnaires who unknowingly did his bidding .

[@shaggycan]

Oh yeah Azrael can't wait very long. If there are widespread reports of black clad space marines with Dark Angel chapter symbols attacking the Imperium the secret would be out. Especially if seen first hand by the Inquisition or other space marine chapters. In fact this might be the main story of 10th edition, and like the battle of Baal, end up taking out most of the firstborn Dark Angels and with the Lion turning the tide at the end.

[@akumaking1]

Majorkill theorizes that Cypher is actually Omegon

[@saintcelestine3521]

Angron? Angron? EMPEREOR FUKN DAMN IT I just want another loyal primarch

[@marshaledrek71]

Cypher will play a role in critical assistance to the Dark Angels. The Space Wolves will also play a role towards the end. Dante will learn of this campaign and will be the first marine to learn the truth of the Dark Angels history, and he will decide to keep it private. Azrael will indeed cross the rubicon primaris after this, so will Ezekiel. The Lion will not return because of this.

[@vinayvenkatram8535]

"Fellow Supreme Grand Masters"? There is only one Supreme Grandmaster of DA at any given time, and all DA successor chapters answer to him.

[@bradleyarchibald2464]

Have you ever read the space marines conquest book war of secrets? It deals with the primaris and the dark angels.

[@MultiAnanab]

Terran born fallen mostly still loyal when it happened, luther and the caliban born fallen, traitor, Lion was only half right. After the fight with Luther the Dark Angels were subverted from within. The Unforgiven obsessively chase the fallen into the Somnium Stars, turning their backs on the Imperium and will be cast as traitor. The first Legion falls. The Lion awakes .....

[@uberjotjr1167]

Azrael is the only Supreme Grand Master of the Dark angels. The leaders of the unforgiven chapters are known as Grand Masters in the same way Samael and Beliel are. This implies the Unforgiven are still a single legion in all but name and technicality.

[@buryitdeep]

When you find out that half of The White Scars also turned to Horus, it makes The Dark Angel's secret far less powerful. Surely nobody in the Imperium cares? I agree they will still carry the shame of it, but to continue the secrecy above all other seems a moot point.

[@LittleIAO]

Always love First Legion talk. I THINK you have two major flaws in your initial logic. 1. Azrael hasn't been keeping the secret of Luther from just the other Unforgiven Chapters and their leaders, he's been keeping it from his own as well. The Dark Angels Chapter technically is just as much in the dark. 2. Azrael inherited this burden. It wasn't his choice because Luther had been held prisoner by all of the Supreme Grand Masters since the breaking of Caliban. The Dark Angels being a Legion completely given over to ritual, tradition, and esoterica Azrael himself wouldn't be likely to just change his mind and reveal this. And no other Unforgiven would either(that we are aware of). It's alien thinking to them. So I don't think if this secret is revealed it SHOULD create the unrest you describe. However GW's writers have often written Dark Angels very inconsistently and out of character IMO. The very fact they are so obsessed with removing the stain from their honor by capturing all the Fallen that they'd willfully abandon their duty to the rest of the Imperium and just stain their honor another way is insane. And there's no way more than a few fanatics inside the Chapters would be blind to this. It's completely obvious they are doing the wrong thing every time they leave a battle unfinished, and an ally betrayed, etc...

[@MSte21]

But that's been pretty central to the portrayal of Dark Angels for a good while now, hasn't it? The fact that they are completely obsessed with this internal vendetta, to the exclusion of everything else going on in the world?

[@LittleIAO]

@@MSte21 Yes and no. Each writer does choose how much or how little they place that hypocrisy up front. Some stories and anecdotes provide exemplary behavior by members of the Unforgiven as well. I think the lore in the codices for a few editions has made the issue worse. I think that's not very good development but it's there.

[@AvACyberSecurity]

But despite all this how can they ever expel a 1st founding as suggested? It just won't happen. But I admit I'm not up on my DA lore. Eg, what are the unforgiven Chapters? I thought the unforgiven were found, made to repent and then killed? Not forced into Chapters? Would be great to see the Lion back though and with all the secrets, it would make sense that the lion being next to return means the Imperium secundus issue left hanging in the recent Dawn of Fire novel irrelevant. 1 because of DA secrets and 2 because the lion was part of Imperium secundus too. BUT...... as I say I'm not up on my DA lore. Am I also right in thinking Luther isn't even a full astates? Kind of like Kor Pheron? Too old when the primarchs were found? Lastly - We will DEFINITELY see another loyal primarch return. Disappointed to hear Rho say we won't get more of them.

[@MSte21]

@@AvACyberSecurity The Unforgiven are the Successor Chapters descending from the DA Legion forces that stayed loyal to the Lion. The Fallen are the ones who are hunted.

[@AvACyberSecurity]

@@MSte21 Thanks for clarifying. So why are they "unforgiven? I think that's what I don't get. I've read about the fallen but I'm not up on DA lore to know much more. Not my favourite legion, although I'd love the lion back as chaos is in for a kicking!

[@lekad6551]

heres my take,all unforgiven are dark engel chapter with another name because codex,so everyone is on board with azriel and bring the rock to the fallen. luther beat the f out of azriel but do not kill him because all he want is the forgivness of his son lion while deathwing veteran carry azriel away,luther beg for redemption at the sky for it is not what he want. cut away to the lions face (open his eyes)/clench a sword

[@seedon5231]

Stupid question but what is he talking about when Rho said "crossing the rubicon"

[@bringerebrethil6176]

Azrael would definitely amass the other Unforgiven Chapters, I’m pretty sure that only the Angels of Absolution. The rest will join for certain.

[@markrtoffeeman]

I think it clear when The Dark Angels emerge in period its going to be in force. Legion like force. With Primaris Astartes like the Legionaries of old. Slaughtering and Purging those enemies of Mankind requiring it

[@jorahtheexplorer3262]

I think any Primaris Grand Masters would quickly meet with “accidents”.

[@kelman727]

Even the ones that crossed the Rubicon?

[@jorahtheexplorer3262]

@@kelman727 I dare say as long as they were Deathwing before hand, they’d be fine.

[@michaelhowell2326]

If the Grey Knights are Chapter 666, that means the other chapters are numbered too. Would the Dark Angels be Chapter 01 since they were the First Legion?

[@shaunwilson6289]

What happened to the watchers where are they would expect them to play a part

[@lukasfr1039]

I don't think any of the unforgiven grand masters will question Azrael decisions or abandon him in this greatest need. In one of the White Dwarfs released one or two years ago there was an update for primaris force within dark angels chapter and there was an information that Azrael's leadership over all unforgiven chapters is unquestianable and all grand masters follow him with utter loyalty. It was also mentioned that all unforgiven chapters in strength are similar to Legion of old and that Azrael stands atop this massive force as supreme grand master. This means that although fallen are in legion strength they will face the similar force of the Unforgiven !

[@AvACyberSecurity]

I dont follow Dark Angels, who are the unforgiven Chapters? If unforgiven why would they be loyal? Also I agree that any successors would be behind Azriel. They would never expel an origional legion/chapter of the first founding. Especially the 1st legion.

[@kelman727]

The individual chapters aren’t legion sized, only when used as a combined force.

[@kelman727]

@@AvACyberSecurity The Unforgiven is what the Dark Angels and their successors call themselves. All of them loyalists.

[@AvACyberSecurity]

@@kelman727 I know chapters aren't legion sized that's not my point. My point was about them expelling what was the original 1st legion as was suggested. A chapter of the first founding (originally the 1st legion) Thanks for the info about the unforgiven. I'm not a DA fan so only just learning bits about them.

[@chuck2703]

Cypher is the ghost of the Lion. Plot twist.

[@jacobwilbers9852]

The secret won't be revealed until the return of the lion

[@ryansauchuk7290]

ASMODAI!!!

[@12gagebastis]

Lion’El Johnson , vulkan/dorn, russ, jagatai Fulgrim clone, corax. in that order i presume will come back

[@johanstinson]

at the pace GW operates I'm expecting the next Primarch to show up around 2033.

[@12gagebastis]

@@johanstinson honestly it seems events are speeding up

[@johanstinson]

@@12gagebastis I hope so. This thing they have with hardly moving the story forward is getting old. Start advancing the story. It's been better since Bobby G came back but we need another Primarch or 2 back ASAP.

[@lordalpharius5928]

Shadowkeepers will appear at Somnus

[@stewartthorpe2533]

Comment for the algorithm gods!

[@erichoughton4128]

There’s only one supreme grand master. That is Azrael.

[@golkor9879]

How the fuck is Luthor 10k years old

[@FYAjibber000]

Stasis/Warp fuckery

[@themasterninja110]

He's been kept in stasis basically. The cell he was in was a statis cell

[@danielpycha3514]

@@FYAjibber000 How tf is Cypher 10k years old

[@emperor002002]

Stasis prison cell.

[@kelman727]

@@danielpycha3514 Stasis cell. Maybe a few months tops have passed from his point of view.

[@chrisrodgers855]

What about Cypher?