THE NEXT HERESY! HOW THE IMPERIUM COULD IMPLODE! WOULD GUILLIMAN BE RESPONSIBLE?

[@namenull7399]

4:10 Guilliman was the one chosen to Raze Monarchia and was witness to Lorgars chastisement. He personally destroyed a city dedicated to the 'God-Emperor' built by his brother on the orders of the Emperor himself, only to wake up 10,000 year later to see the entire Imperium worshiping the 'God-Emperor'. It's no wonder he can't come to terms with the fact his the Emperor has become a god.

[@Skygod104]

Well said.

[@Elldallan]

Well the Imperial Creed was essentially written by a loyalist Wordbearer venerable Dreadnought so... Yeah I think Guilliman would be well and truly outraged to learn that fact, and it would quite possibly send him over the edge and designate the entire Ecclesiarchy to be Excommunicato Traitoris and order a full on purge.

[@BerathorPainting]

Yep! Literally turned into a tool of punishment for worshipping Big E.

[@Eric-rr3zd]

And he knows that their whole damn religion is straight up based on Lorgar's teachings. The Imperial cult is basically a giant Word Bearers cult.

[@chadcuckproducer1037]

I can only imagine that the emperors eye twitched upon hearing from lorgar that he could see his godhead.

[@jasonpatrignani4717]

I don't know that there would be Heresy from Guilliman or Cawl. While Cawl is infinitely ambitious, his lore has routinely circled back to the concept that he fights for the vision of the emperor and the imperium that was around during the Great Crusade, and with that he behaves like the scientist he is and pushes the bounds of discovery just like the Emperor. In-fact, I'd hazard to say that Cawl is more like minded to the Emperor than Guilliman. Guilliman is an administrator and strategist and unlike many of his brothers he is not a tech visionary. He sees what is available to him and uses that material to move toward a goal, where as Cawl is looking, like the Emperor, to advance humanity out of the darkness through science and technology that has been lost. I honestly as this point would put the focus of the Heresy squarely on the Ecclesiarchy because as they feel their power wane they will use whatever they can to ensure that Guilliman will never be rid of the church, and as Rho mentioned, the act of direct assault by Guilliman would be framed for Heresy and subversion regardless of the justification because like the Emperor duirng the expansion, He cannot be everywhere at once, and the means of communication are infinitely less reliable than they were during the Great Crusade

[@kccustodes2618]

Also there was that bit where the Emperor possibly possessed Cawl for a bit? Saturnine maybe? I have that in my head, but am not real sure. But the point I am working around is that Cawl serves the Emperor and likely even shared some psychic deal too.

[@jasonpatrignani4717]

@@kccustodes2618 I think you are thinking about “Wolfsbane” or possibly “The Great Work” I think is the one where you end up hearing Cawl actually speaking to the Emperor is his memories as the Pharos is causing the wild temporal anomalies.

[@GuthanSlayer]

I mean guilliman is pragmatic and uses what he has available to him, and hes not some "tech visionary" but he understands the value of research and development of scientific advancement, he ordered cawl to make space marines better, hes as much like the emperor of advancing humanity and out of the darkness, his 500 worlds used to be a great example of this, he conquered planets and he didnt just leave he, made them functional and uplifted the population, the best place to live in while still horrible by our standards is still in ultramar. theres a story of citizens of ultramar working for a tech priest refusing to work until the work place has better safety standards!

[@jasonpatrignani4717]

@@GuthanSlayer oh without doubt. I wasn’t saying that I don’t think Guilliman isn’t incredible in his capacity, I was just saying that he is a statesman and administrator and strategist as their apex. He builds empires with the people around him baseline or Astartes and he has always been dedicated to building a better future for humanity. My point was that with that being the case he doesn’t seem like the type to tear down the entire building to start from zero. He might change things or get rid of things but he uses what is available and he is wayyyy too well versed in statecraft to decide that he is going to destroy the Imeprium

[@Aristaios]

@@jasonpatrignani4717 exactly thats why during the Great Crusade Guilliman ordered worlds to be taken mostly intact even if it meant taking more casualties better to work with existing infrastructure than starting from scratch

[@Ulfbhert9000]

I got the feeling of when the Lion returns Guilliman will play good cop while Lion plays bad cop to cow the high lords into following him as the better alternative for administrating the imperium while letting the Lion loose on Traitors and Xenos alike.

[@Dadecorban]

sounds a little too productive for a Lion / Guilliman interaction

[@boom350ph]

@@Dadecorban well thats what gullimen wants to happen tbh

[@Dadecorban]

@@boom350ph It doesn't matter. He wanted to cooperate last time they were both on McCragge and it didn't work out too well bro. Neither of them have changed.

[@boom350ph]

@@Dadecorban like i said thats what guillimen wantef

[@Dadecorban]

@@boom350ph like I said...Lion is going to be the Lion. I guess we are at an impasse.

[@OverlordMagos]

I don't think Cawl will be that big of a problem He doesn't want to be Fabricator General as that would hinder him on his personal Quest for Knowledge **Spoilers for the book "The Great Work" to follow** During the events of "The Great Work" one of the Tetrarchs asks him why he keeps asking Guilliman for the position of Fabricator General To which Cawl acts surprised and claims he never did so, and the Tetrarch clarifies that it is the Cawl Inferior who does. I believe Cawl mentions that he will have to check Cawl Inferior, implying it might have deviated from his own thought patterns.

[@dac314]

Cawl Inferior is just a little wingman.

[@Archon3960]

"Whoops, why did my Not-AI clones create all that fuss while I was away?"

[@sircashew1097]

If Guilliman were to “commit heresy” it would only be for 2 reasons. The first would be his turning against the imperial creed and trying to reimpose the imperial truth. The second would be if the Emperor came back and declared himself a god. Either way, it has to do with the abandoning of the imperial truth and Monarchia

[@Timasion]

In the alternate 40K Dornian Heresy, Roboute doesn't fall to Chaos. He just rebels against the Imperium and creates an independent kingdom out of Ultramar.

[@dac314]

Rare Bad-Boi Guilliman W

[@gamechanger8908]

"Fuck you guys, I'm making my own Imperium with Jack Black and Hookers"

[@jo_ken]

I mean I’m doubtful a Heresy will happen or at least a full blown one since I would have a hard time believing the Imperium could survive a civil war with all the threats they have to contend with.

[@albertor.6635]

I kinda do but i see it more being with the church and inquisition and the high lords against guillaman

[@muchlove59]

The Imperium is barely holding together thanks to the primarch a heresy would be retarded. What we need is some primarchs returning to the scene and the Big E awakening and walking again. We are overdue some relief from the almost overwhelming doom bearing down on humanity and the Big E returning would reignite faith in the Imperium to Godly heights, and push back the darkness.

[@jo_ken]

@@muchlove59 I think we’d be good with 1-3 Primarchs returning. Top of my list would probably be Lion (to get off his sleepy ass) , Clonegrim (Because a loyalist and daemon Fulgrim existing at the same time is story writing gold, tactically wise I hope for someone else), then maybe Dorn or Russ.

[@SarmonOflynn]

I have a hard time believing any particular faction could raise the number of men required to face the indomitus crusade in any effective way, considering how fractured the landscape of imperium politics is in m41.

[@christopheraaron1255]

They had a shedload of threats during the Age of Apostasy too...

[@Duppyman695]

All I know is The High Lords will blame Guilliman if it's his fault or not!

[@jonharrison9222]

He purged all the disloyal ones.

[@Duppyman695]

@@jonharrison9222 yeah but they will still blame him or anyone thats not them!

[@jonharrison9222]

Guilliman has already dispersed the Ultima Founding. He’s no longer effectively commanding a space marine legion.

[@jonharrison9222]

1. Firstborn reacting against Primaris. 2. Religious civil war just because. 3. Marines loyal to the Lion over Guilliman when he wakes up. 4. Secrets of Imperium Secundus breaking out and taken out of context.

[@chrisgarbutt1893]

To be honest I wont blame Guilliman all that much for the fact any other returning loyalist Primarch would've already started a civil war with the different factions the Imperium. The only factions I see solidly standing by the primarchs are Imperial Guard, Ad Mech, Custodians, and most or half of space marine chapters. Rogal Dorn - He's stubbornly loyal to the Imperial truth and would quickly end up at war with the High Lords, Ecclesiarchy, Sisters of Battle, Inquisition, and Gray Knights over his reforms. Leman Russ - War with the Inquisition, High Lords, and gray knights over the months of shame. Vulkan - War with Inquisition, High Lords Gray knights, Black Templars and potentially Sisters of Battle. He's too nice and his priority of saving common people would end up in a months of shame situation, where the inquisition or other factions would declare him a arch heretic for saving potential tainted civilians. Lion El Johnson - War almost every Imperium faction to restore the Imperial Truth. Jaghatai Khan - I have no clue, but most Imperial factions would distrust him. Corvus Corax - I have no clue, but most Imperial factions would distrust him.

[@jamesneese7663]

Khan would see the High Lords as self righteous kings more concerned over their own power than saving the Imperius, rising in ranks due to schemes and betrayal than because of any real skill, merit, or power. He would probably have them all beheaded simply to serve as warning to their successors, instead instigating them into open war against him. Corax would likely take one look at the situation and throw up his hands in resignation. The Imperium of 41k would be an indecipherable maze of wtfery for him to deal with and he'd have no patience to try untangling it. He'd more likely give up, ask for whomever in charge to give him every force available and go try to halt the advance of the 13th Crusade, seeing as Chaos is a far greater danger to the Imperium than anything. What point is there to fixing an Imperium that is about to get mowed down like wheat field against the ever-encroaching forces of Chaos...? After his experience in the Heresy, he'd see the priority in defeating Chaos first, which would get all factions in the Imperium breathing a sigh of relief that he'll either win or die trying, both outcomes being equally acceptable. El Johnson is the real wild card because he's more than once changed stances when necessary. NOTHING is above or beneath him.

[@Iceisnice1]

I think that if Guilliman really went up against the Ecclesiarchy, one of his opening moves would actually be to appoint Cawl as Fabricator General of Mars. It's true that Papa Smurf doesn't fully trust Cawl, but I believe his refusal to appoint him is less because of that and more because it'll create a schism within the Adeptus Mechanicus. For all his flaws, Cawl actually has his priorities straight when it comes to innovation and technology, understanding that the Imperium's current state of technological stagnation is untenable. With Cawl in charge of the AdMech, the Imperium's situation should drastically improve. It's just not worth the price of another Schism of Mars. But if G-Man is planning a civil war anyway, the aforementioned concern goes out the window.

[@Av4ta7]

Indeed. Just waitin' for the Lion to return and both Brothers going up, against the Ecclessiarcy. In anyway it will be fucking Bloody

[@Luciusthestorms]

that's not the best idea though if you're going to create a civil war with the ecclesiarchy why would you then create one on mars too giving you two enemies instead of one?

[@Av4ta7]

@@Luciusthestorms Distraction perhaps. The Admech ist responsible for every Tech in the Imperium. Led the Priesthood debate or fighting over eachother, would give an oppurtunity for Gulliman, his returning loyal Siblings or the Ecclissiarcy, which depends on who is in charge of Mars. Yes, it could end in another DARK MECHANICUM, witch would probably aid some rebellious Highlords or simply the Ecclissiarcy as a whole. But it would also send shivers through the Imperium to the point, that one of these sides is making a very terrible, inconvertible mistake, that would be a justifible reason for the other side, to gather full support of every likeminded Individual or Faction, that thinks just like the Leader(s) of there respected peers. In the end, it's always just a matter of chance and action in the right moment, for shit to go sideways, really fast. "So, let the game begin!"

[@meferswift]

@@Luciusthestorms so you wanted full power of mars against you instead of half of it? Mars are currently the same as Eclisiarch. Religious zealots. If roboute wanted to cleanse the religious zealots may aswell take out the mars religious zealots. .

[@timothylyons5686]

@@Luciusthestorms Mars would would just release the void dragon. Probably turn all AdMech into Necron warriors.

[@deno7236]

I like the idea of Guilliman being declared heretic by an overzealous imperium as a pretext for another primarchs return.

[@MrSpartanspud]

We have seen the Emperor intervene, like with Roboutte's death to Mortarion. If it even got to the point of a second heresy, the Emperor would put an end to it. He is now a literal god.

[@odst123451]

If he’s a God now then he was always a God.

[@BrotherCarver]

A cool Heresy idea might be if one of the loyalist Primarchs who hated the Codex Astartes were to come back into the setting. Let's Say Leman Russ comes in and decides to take the already oversized Chapter of the Space Wolves back under his command, but also decides to take in all the new successors and Gene-seed in order to recreate the Legion of old, that would send the Custodes and other anti-Astartes factions into a fury. I could also see this happening with Dorn since his successors already have the Last Wall, it wouldn't be too hard for Dorn to recreate the Imperial Fist Legion. I specifically like the idea of it being Russ or Dorn as it would force Guilliman into a position where he either has to defend his brother, one of the Dauntless few, or declare him a traitor.

[@Naidisbus]

As much as I agree that Robot Guillotine would definitely go about removing the Ecclesiarchy, being the galaxy brain logistician that he is, he has to understand that taking away the spiritual foundation of the quadrillions of humans in the galaxy would be a not-so-great thing to do for stability.

[@loristnorton3723]

He knows that.

[@Shadowhunterbg]

Didn't Guilliman save Terra in the end from the traitors? I wouldn't mistrust him for that same reason. The reason they mistrust him is their lust for power.

[@chadcuckproducer1037]

He personally showed up after Horus was slain. That was the reason why Horus dropped the shields in his gambit to take the emperor 1 on 1. The other loyalists were closing in and he didn't have any more time.

[@jamesneese7663]

no...the reason they distrust him is because he has the power to TAKE the throne if he truly wanted. He has a power they are jealous and fearful of because if they were in his position, THEY DAMN WELL WOULD seize the throne. They don't know Guilliman but they see someone they cannot control, blackmail, bribe, threaten, or bargain with; and that SCARES them because they have NOTHING but his promise he won't kill them. And we know how well the High Lords have kept similar promises THEY"VE made in the past.....!

[@daniellandon6811]

I feel the bigger question is this, is Belisarius really Bella, or is he Kelbor Hal. That character hasn't been seen in 10k plus years.

[@Bananaskin101]

I think you made an error on Cawl, he didn't request to be made Fabricator General, the Cawl Inferior did. Which I believe was discussed between Cawl and Decimus Felix in The Great Work.

[@sookendestroy1]

Im interested in the idea of a golden imperium. Guilliman, the emperors saints, etc. Alongside the psychic will of the emperor while the emperors body remains in the dark imperium. Wherein guilliman accepts the godhood of the emperor but sees it as a tool to be controlled and the imperium and its ecclesiarchy as a threat. Heck, considering slaneesh, the emperor becoming a god may be a good way to purge the corrupt parts of the empire.

[@chadcuckproducer1037]

Except good and bad people don't divide themselves neatly by geographic or galactic region.

[@sookendestroy1]

@@chadcuckproducer1037 true, though it would be a civil war and pockets and regions would form eventually. At the end of the day 40k just needs more biblically accurate emperor daemons

[@alejandrorp5160]

@@sookendestroy1 No It doesn't.

[@the11382]

The emperor will be a puppet in the grand game. I guess he already is.

[@berzaindejesus4137]

I shall contact the inquisition on your behalf Wolf.... in the morrow you will know purification. Thanks for the video.

[@MogDog66]

I thought that in the Belisarius Great Work novel he says that he has no interest in being the fabricator general as for one half of Mars would revolt because they think him too heretical, but also that he has no interest in the additional responsibilities that would just distract him from his work

[@Sigsen]

Yes, I was under the impression that Belisarius Inferior is the one asking Guilliman on behalf of Cawl

[@hykeaux]

I figured the next heresy would be due to the Primaris, being an upgraded Space Marines... Gave me some flashbacks to Thunder Warriors. And I'm sure some of the first born remember the Thunder Warriors and suspect what happened... Truly.

[@chadcuckproducer1037]

Very very very few space marines have walked with the emperor. Only one I can think of is the space wolf dreadnought and the ancharite.

[@Aragorn5]

Well the thunder warriors have a lot of weaknesses like they can’t live long enough like the space marines and they have some kind of disease they are useless compared to a space marine, however I don’t think guilliman would kill space marines even if the primaris are better, space marines still have their use.

[@tobiworldwide]

I'm surprised you didnt mention "Imperium Secundus" and that guy in godblight grabbing that book describing its history. Could lead to accusations of heresy against Big G.

[@Furzkampfbomber]

I don't see how Guilliman throwing the Ecclesiarchy over board could be a 'heresy', when it's the very Ecclesiarchy that constantly betrays the Emperors (supposed) vison of how humankind should roll. Well, from _their_ perspective, it surely is, considering that 'heresy' is defined as a 'belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs'. But then again, in this Imperium; not citing the 'The Emperors Psalms of Properly Cleaning your Teeth' before brushing your teeth is, so that's quite relative. I see more potential for a possible heresy in the rift that divides the Imperium. As I see it, the part of the Imperium that does not contain Terra has been pretty much abandonded by now and more than one main character stated that this part of the Imperium does not even really feel like the Imperium anymore, for that exact reason. So who would be surprised if all those people in this part of the Imperium will feel abandoned sooner or later? And who knows what can and will come from that, apart from the educated guess that whatever this brings, it can't be good? So who can say if not, for instance, a surrogate 'Emperor' might rise, maybe even one deployed by the Ruinous Powers themselfes?

[@Archon3960]

So, either the Roboutian *apostasy* or the War of the False Empreror then?

[@kinesta]

Wasn't the whole continually asking to be the Fabricator General specifically from the Cawl Inferior? Cawl is off doing "things" around the galaxy. And when he learns of this behavior he makes a mental note. I like the idea of having a mini AI revolt against ol Bobby G in the future. Have the real Cawl come in and save the day.

[@alexrowe7063]

I think another imperium civil war is not due until humanity is nearing another golden age just to kick then back into the grimdark. Doing it when guilleman is already struggling by himself while his -bums- brothers have pissed off into the warp is just kicking him while he's down.

[@MoraqVos]

the Imperium was already grim dark before the Horus heresy.

[@Griffinmore]

With regards to Guilliman going against the Ecclesiarchy, I am wondering how the Black Templars would be seen by Guilliman? I am still reading through the Horus Heresy so I am not caught up to the point of currently covered lore so I do not know what the interactions between Guilliman and the Black Templars have been post-heresy.

[@vlaandhael]

badly

[@mcnuggets2825]

Surprisingly Very chill Guilliman spoke directly with helbrecht and gave him a bunch of primaris then sent him on his way. Various important and high ranking templars have already crossed the rubicon such as Grimaldis. There was one story where a off shoot crusade force lost their shit and killed the custodies who brought the primaris gene seed but all those guys died during the crusade so there is no one to continue their heresy.

[@probablythedm1669]

​@@mcnuggets2825 Good! As fun as that was, it was heresy on a level worthy of an edict of eradication. Still, I would have liked to see them be purged by custodes rather than just go die somewhere.

[@Archon3960]

I think splitting the Imperium (a true split, like the Roman Empire) would create amazing story ideas. Multiple human factions, not shackled by anything. A Mechanicus given free reign. And threats being kicked around like a plushie in the books (Orks, Chaos and 'Nids) finally becoming a huge threat. Maybe Dorn and Guilliman would even have their own little corners of the Milky Way. B)

[@GuthanSlayer]

eh i mean its already split by the chaos rift, and dante has been placed as its leader by guilliman, one side succedding from the empire would just be another heresy/civil war.

[@Archon3960]

@@GuthanSlayer It is split on the galactic map yes, but I was referring to the Imperium truly shattering. PancreasNoWork has a good video on this subject. Check it out if you're interested.

[@dantecooke]

one thing I would query there Rho is that Cawl wants to become the fabricator general, as in the great work when Felix asks why Cawl keeps asking to be made fabricator general, Cawl responds with surprise saying why would he ever want that job as he wouldn't be able to go out into the galaxy to follow his other more 'necron' projects.

[@emperor002002]

I always felt a next civil war in the Imperium would be if another Primarch came back and saw that Guilliman didn't teardown the church immediately. The Lion, action without listening, "I'm the first Son! I know better!"

[@jimmy160680]

Specifically with the Primaris, I suspect the potential for a Belisarian Heresy lessens as the Mars born Primars are slowly killed. From my understanding the Primaris created by Chapter would have differing indoctrination processes.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

It is an interesting thought... What strengths and factions would be willing to fight the Imperial Church? The Custodian Guard, Silent Sistershood, a majority of the Astartes Chapters and must important of all: The Admech. These would be opposed by the Guard and The Navy and some Astartes Chapters. And the endless ranks of Imperial civilians....

[@jamesneese7663]

the Admech wouldn't want to be part of this at ALL, esp considering how some factions within the Mechanius have wildly different views on the Emperor ranging from loathing to worshipful of him as an aspect/incarnation of the Omnissah.... The thing is that the faith has permeated all aspects of Imperium society that even some chapters of the Astartes have religious views of the Emperor. Guilliman would not have just factions of the Imperium as his enemy, he would have most of society ITSELF against him. in the 10000 years since the Heresy, faith goes so far and so deep that to tell everyone "stop worshipping the Emperor" would be like telling the ENTIRE ADEPTUS SORATIAS to stop breathing. not going to happen. How can Guilliman even fight a war where at any time fanatics on his own flagship might go rogue and sabotage the engine room to stop his heresy?

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

@@jamesneese7663 you are right of course. My comment was speculation. Faith is to deep in the Imperiums bones for a swift excision.

[@jamesneese7663]

@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen the imperium is too far gone to be saved, even by the Emperor himself since - in his absence - faith ALONE has kept the Imperium from falling to pieces.. love or hate the Church of the Emperor, its the faith in the Emperor is the ONLY thing that has kept the Imperium together despite all the turmoil and political wtfery that's gone on and otherwise would have tanked the Empire. It's no coincidence that faith in the Emperor became the glue of the Imperium the moment the last Primarch disappeared.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

@@jamesneese7663 score one for the philosophy of Lorgar 😉

[@jamesneese7663]

@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen he was right for the wrong reasons. And partly was for his own selfishness that dad being a god makes him a demigod..... not really a man of faith when the moment his faith was tested, he ran to find a new god to justify his existence. he clearly never cared about anything but being "special".

[@Emberheart_]

It'd be more interesting if the Emperor's gradual transformation into a god would turn the tables with the Emperor instinctively wanting to reshape humans into something no longer resembling humanity. We'd have an Emperor's heresy where the changed Emperor's new ideals are the opposite of what the Emperor once wanted ten-thousand years ago. The man who wanted so much good for humanity tragically becomes its enemy.

[@marksutherlandjr.2121]

Has it occurred to anybody else over the years watching Lord Rho, that we click on a video to talk about Warhammer 40,000. Then we are warned that we are talking about Warhammer 40,000 lol. Love this channel man

[@Pheonix326]

Guilliman would turn against the ecclesiarchy, not against his father or the imperium. They are a threat to the imperium, and with the resources and problems Guilliman has, he has had to let them mostly be. But when one of his brothers returns, I feel like that will change. Guilliman is one of the most loyal sons to the emperor.

[@BerathorPainting]

I doubt it. Just like you'll never see the Dark Angels or Alpha Legion switch sides despite their sometimes questionable ambiguity. It would literally alienate massive swathes of the fanbase and the Ultramarines are the poster boys. GW would be shooting themselves in the foot.

[@markmueller-rougier3098]

I just got a feeling the next return son of the emperor will be the Khan. He'll study what Guilliman's been doing,. He will step out of the shadows and tell Guilliman to return his legion to him. And then he will tell his brother, "where do you need me and my legion my Lord regent. Loyalty is after all it's own reward."

[@dk292]

Would love to see the Lion come back and take on the church could be a great start to him coming back and clearing house

[@frankl9583]

If anything I could see the High Lords attempt to take him out Ceaser vs the Senate Style. I doubt Crawl will do anything too radical. The Church though .... could be another one though... with the result being a independent Ultimar Under Guilliman..... bot again, I feel it will be something with the High Lords.

[@SarmonOflynn]

It strikes me that the objection of the emperor that "i am not a God. There are no gods," was true, but incomplete. Since the emperor lies by omission almost habitually, that sentence in the mind of the emperor probably meant implicitly "I am not a God. There are no gods... yet."

[@vontheunknown7982]

They're already a rumor about a Horus heresy 2.0 but I wonder who's going to be leading it?

[@chuck2703]

Theoretical : Restoring imperial truth. Practical : Destroy the imperium.

[@BIGBOSS-bu1jt]

theoretical : Remove the church practical : even done carefully and over time zealots will always rise again constant war is better then annihilation

[@sierradelta6524]

An order 66 style event? Man, that would be awesome!! Imagine where the lore could go with that. It would be massive!

[@alexanderm8880]

It'd be hilarious if Cawl sent out a signal and the Primaris started killing the Firstborn marines. Nothing like proving the Black Templars right again. ;)

[@MidApp333]

Great Vid Rho!!! Always a blessing to listen to a speculation vid from you!

[@LysimedVenteel]

15:09 I think this is likely, and I’d love to see it happen. But there is one main chapter (and its successors, I suppose) that would be immune to this. The Space Wolves. Yes, this is me being biased. But the Space Wolves have very different aspirant trials and processes to other chapters - to my knowledge they don’t even do any psycho-indoctrination. The Sons of Russ keep their personalities. We know Ragnar Blackmane remembered his life before joining the Vlka Fenryka. The psycho-indoctrination is supposed to prevent Astartes from having romantic feelings… but then you have Lukas the Trickster, who really speaks for himself.

[@tedhodge4830]

War against the Ecclesiarchy would only be heresy against the church. It would not be heresy against the Emperor. If anything, the Ecclesiarchy is heresy, built on the writings of Lorgar. The Emperor himself would crush it if he were still whole, as he crushed Monarchia.

[@ukartet]

The Imperium nearly fell because not all primarchs believed in the imperial truth. I see no way that the Emperor would not support Guilliman when he goes against the Ecclesiarchy and the miserable vision ends. It would not be heresy, it would be the way the Emperor desires. I don't think there are any direct statements showing that his opinion has changed over the millennia. Guilliman's loyalty to the Emperor and his dream is unbroken in my eyes. Secundus has shown that he does everything to honor it.

[@NatureinNano]

I actually think all the heresy options against guilliman are definitely tangible but I feel only belisarius is a true contender to outwitting guilliman

[@XIIIphobos]

The idea of a Belisarian Heresy has some serious Execute Order 66 vibes to it.

[@tomdolan9761]

I’m not sure heresy is the likely outcome but I do think as other major figures return to the Empire conflict between loyalist is inevitable. Russ, the Lion the Khan and Constantine Valdor have decidedly different views on the future. Likewise I think the discovery that Belasaurius Call in the Primaris project utilized Traitor gene seed in direct disobedience to Guillimans specific orders suggesting that entire legions of reenforcement can be activated under loyalist direction

[@iloveplayingpr]

Guilliman destroying a symbol of Worship to the Emperor during the Great Crusade by the Emperor's order, was forced to sleep to wake up later to find the whole Imperium Worshiping the Emperor.

[@brendanmatrix9393]

Shoulda called it the Rouboute Rebellion! Awesome video

[@bobbyrabii6119]

This could be the scenario that the next primarch returns. G man gets trapped by the eccesliarchy in some way in serious trouble, and suddenly for example the Lion rolls in with the entire reformed 1st legion and annihilates them and assists G man.

[@lordtritus2261]

Could be interesting to see what the other Primarchs would do if it happened.

[@alanwebster4638]

It's not a heresy It's a cleansing

[@bluethehuman3692]

People are mentioning that Cawl Inferior is the one asking, not Cawl, which removes him as an issue. I think this only opens more ways for this to go to hell, more likely than Belisarius Cawl actually rebelling. I see two ways Guilliman could actually force Cawl into rebellion: What if Guilliman doesn't trust that Cawl Inferior actually does have different desires than Cawl, and moves against him after some statement by the machine - or simply due to its repetitive asking? What if Guilliman decides (or accepts the judgement by someone else) that Cawl Inferior is, in fact, AI - and its creator must be dealt with? In either case, I sincerely doubt Cawl would just accept execution. And since the question of AI is on the table... What if Cawl Inferior actually is a full blown AI trying to figure out any way out of its current vulnerable predicament? This path of course nearly certainly dooms Cawl himself, but how much damage could such an AI do given time to prepare and manipulate?

[@MWH12085]

I'll probably go about as well as the High Lords trying to overthrow Gulliman...

[@eichler721]

Of the options it's the Ecclesiarcy turning against Guilliman but I don't think any are a option right now

[@Micaenes]

Roboute Rebellion is my vote. Seeing some other comments, I'd be curious to see what the returning of other Loyalist Primarchs would do to the Imperium.

[@Jadefox32]

Seems to me it'll be based upon the tome of Imperium Secundus

[@davidwalker9539]

Gulliman having the book of Lorgar could cause a few issues as well

[@animemanXLK]

Roboute should by now know full well the dangers of trying to take a way a persons faith even if it is misplaced. this pretty much what happened with Lorgar and the Word Bearers and it ultimately lead to a devastating civil war in the Imperium. If he were to order the imperium to cease their worship of the Emperor it could have further distratrous consequences leading millions to be converted to worship of Chaos. Maybe even the Black Templars themselves told their veneration of the god Emperor is as heinous a crime as Horus's treachery. I very much doubt there'd be much Imperium left after that. A second Horus Heresy level event would like see it destroyed.

[@danielboatright8887]

My five bucks is betting the ecclisiarchy picks a fight with Gman and gets super shocked when pretty much all of the Astartes end up siding with him.

[@mcook8643]

Rowboat would have his own version of The Last Church

[@Ksrwilhelm]

If (when) The Lion awakens the s**t will hit the proverbial fan. He'll find an empire descended into barbarism with Guilliman at the helm. After confronting the G-man and finding him embittered and "disrespectful" to the emperor all hell will break loose (Maybe a certain god of intrigue has egged him on, whispering to The Lion in the guise of the emperor?) I don't see any of those two falling to chaos, but with just the right series of unfortunate events and miscommunications, I could easily imagine there being a serious irreparable schism between the brothers, and the empire as a whole.

[@MonumentHobbies]

How is it you don't even mention Valdor in this? If there is any type of civil war coming to the Imperium, it's bound to come at his hands.

[@NatureinNano]

Trying not to type any spoilers but it was brilliant to see guillimans part in the regents shadow!

[@amcreaken]

The Emperor is Malice, the 5th god of Chaos bent on destroying the other gods.

[@WesloTheHandsome]

Excellent as Always Rho‼️💯 -Cheers🥃👍🏻👍🏻👏🏻

[@Osmond_Wrought]

To be fair with the Ecclesiarchy, Guilliman is no fool to see it's ability to keep the current Imperium together. It is lucky for them that they had his return come first of all his brothers. Can you imagine if, for example, Rogal came back. He would not hesitate to obliterate the church; even if it means engaging the Black Templars. Especially since he's the one who heard the Emperor's last words. The Ecclesiarchy could not have a better primarch alive than Roubute, however I think they're living on borrowed time.

[@PhynixDS]

star child has been retconned, so now we're left with the the 5th chaos god that is an enathma to the other Chaos gods, the only other such chaos god that also has this kind of reaction to other chaos gods is Malal the emperor has become Malal....

[@jamricsloe]

Roboute being honest with himself about who the Emperor is/was isn’t bitterness. I’m sure he knew who the Emperor was in 30k.

[@globalelitemanagementllc7686]

thanks for the upload

[@iffypiffy4569]

I'm a Loyalist, though and through. How ever if Gilly-Boi Goes traitor, I'm going with him.

[@donslayton9258]

I could see a civil war against the Emperor/ church and not the imperium itself if another Primarch returning. They would also believe as Guilliman does. How would the Lion or Russ react if one were to return in the near future....

[@Dimetropteryx]

I don't think things are going well enough for the Imperium that the setting needs another heresy. Wouldn't rule out a civil war between primarchs, if another one were to return. Or an uprising led by some disgruntled chapter master. I don't think the master tactician would self-sabotage by going against the Ecclesiarchy. If he wants to preserve the imperium, he'll have to disregard the Emperor's vision until it's secured. What I personally would find hilarious, is if Lorgar returned and managed to convince the Ecclesiarchy to take his side against Guilliman.

[@grtdrmmrs]

Idk if it would happen with Gulliman. It is rumored that the lion will be returning in 10th…. So if he comes back I think it would more likely happen with him then anything else

[@alexanderm8880]

"The Ultra Heresy" sounds good. :p

[@dac314]

Without another returned Primarch, I doubt there will be any serious civil wars within the Imperium whilst the Galaxy is torn asunder. Except for the Black Templars. A series of Crusader fleets will decide they don't care for Guilliman and the Primaris, and will declare renegade, but like, the insane kind of renegade where you claim everyone ELSE has gone renegade.

[@abellyofanarmy]

With the advance of the lore Leman Russ or the Lion Will return... Thats the question now...

[@cesare.lopezelll8122]

Most likely hersey will be war between the church and the Astartes

[@ebbiilizard8954]

what sweet revenge Lorgar could reap if he posed as a returned loyal primarch to ignorant swathes of besieged and desperate ecclesiarchy who have turned against guilliman. I think if any demon primarch could blind the truth (not the first time Vandire) and pull off that ruse it would be Lorgar. It would sicken Guilliman to the core to learn Lorgar was waging war against the rest of the imperium in the emperor's name.

[@henryheavy8044]

This is why I’m sticking to Big D from alfabusa he’s a crazy but good father

[@catworrall4987]

Wouldn't guilliman recognize lorgars words and style of writing in the divinatatus?

[@jamesshephard3253]

What happens when and if the Lion returns? What will he think of the state of things, how will he get on with Guilliman and Cawl

[@Fmone177]

As always love your content!!

[@TheCheeksMiller]

I think the key words ol' big blue is missing is his father was NOT a god, at the time. One could easily say circumstances forced his hand to take the mantle he never wanted.

[@richardlayton7184]

Robute Guilloman...Warmaster of the Emperor...

[@gregdomenico1891]

Time to really go down the rabit hole. I know there is conflicting info on Cawl; In the Great work, it states he dosen't want to be the Fabricator General. In Dark Imperium, during the Inferior Coversation with Guilliman, He does ask if Guilliman would support him becoming FG. We know Guilliman says no.It's another part of the conversation when things get interesting; the Inferior ask about deploying Primaris with the fallen Legions geneseed; stating that there was nothing wrong with the genseed itself; it was their Primarchs who fell to Chaos. Guilliaman flat out tells him hell no. Now, we know Cawl is ambitious, and follows orders only when they suit him. We also know that he was giving the geneseed of all of the Primarchs. Who is to say that he dosen't have 100k Primaris on Ice, made with Traitor Legion genseed, ready for use? And then decides he want's to make a move on Mars, using them?

[@BadGladeCrazy]

There is no confliction. In great work Cawl is genuinely surprised Inferior would ask that. Maybe this is going to be GWs why to reintroduce some new dark age of technology with a Cawl clone making an AI army on Mars.

[@TheKnizzine]

Turning on Big E to protect humanity is what Big E would have wanted, that mind and soul broken thing on the throne isnt The Emperor, not anymore.

[@alejandrorp5160]

The Imperium has already imploded, split in two. Now GW has to elaborate on that. And it will, for years. It's a great scenario for storytelling. Much as people would love it, having all Primarchs back would only lead 40K to its endgame. Which probably they won't after what they did with Fantasy. No final resolution. There is only war.

[@nonnyjones8217]

RHO HERE LOL ..🤣🤣🤣😂💪🏾

[@MartinMess]

To be honest not killing Horus when he was at his mercy and wasting my legion instead of defending Terra seems for me more like heresy than Imperium Secundus😬. Maybe our Wolf Lord will talk next time about the lemonade heresy 😂

[@WookieGroundZero]

Heresy from Bobby G? Highly unlikely. He's one of the best strategist and one whom has shown how a crusade can be. The ecclesiarchy is one of the most shrewd organizations among all the imperial system of government. With the HLoT which are eating each other to amass more power for themselves. About the returning primarchs. We need to take in mind that the Lion, Dorn (we don't know anything of him but his arm), Alpharius (which plays both sides since their inception), the Khan, Corax and Vulkan (can't say Russ because the lore and fluff tells that could be pretty much dead). The can have a return if the moment is right. And the Ecclesiarchy was and still is a threat to the imperium even at that state. Like the Eldar usually tell "Is not matter of how, but when" the ecclesiarchy is going to go full Rouge and attack Bobby G to balance the old status quo.

[@richardlayton7184]

If it does happen it will be the Church and Mars against the Son of the Emperor...

[@jc7997aj]

Best you believe GW would "borrow" from other franchises so "order 66" style programming into Primaris is quite possible.

[@matthewharr6881]

It's the Crawl inferior that keeps asking Crawl himself says that's the position would in reality hold him back. He even mentioned fixing the Crawl inferior irs stops ask. I think it the Inferior that wants to be the fabricater general. Guilluman's even thought making Crawl the fabricater general but political reason keep him from doing that. Putting Crawl in that position would actually make him more controllable. Crawl seem to have no real interest in that position even mentions it would hold him back in his book I also think I see Guilluman's plan, it's multi staged, Guilluman has a lot of support from the common people of the imperium. It seems mostly those in power fear him.

[@lexthefirst]

Guilliman is too smart for a heresy to be allowed to forment from any sources other than his brothers, though if cawl has some order 66 bullshit up his sleeve that could hurt.