Game Apologist - Sonic Forces

Not only did you have to wait four months since the last episode, but you also have to deal with horrific frame rate drops for a lot of the gameplay footage. Not sure what happened there.
....ANYWAY IT'S ANOTHER SONIC VIDEO.

[@topichu970]

The best description of this game I've ever heard is Alpharad calling it "aggressively average"

[@GodMaxDrinkerofTea]

absolutely agreed

[@caramelcandys]

Yes

[@jujubearyyyy]

Y e s

[@jeremiahevans6403]

Were is sonic mania plus ultra

[@hurt4322]

@@jeremiahevans6403 like deku????????

[@GFCOLCQuote]

When something is terrible, we can laugh at their mistakes. When something is great, we can hold their achievements close to out hearts. When something is average, it's as if it never happened at all.

[@kayorego6420]

True

[@tayclark42]

Factttttts

[@frost_sprite]

Sonic 06:

[@darionkira1362]

@@frost_sprite it was nvr finished

[@frost_sprite]

@@darionkira1362 Sonic 06 never happened.

[@Andre-uo7uf]

“There’s only one obvious answer..” Me sarcastically: Shadow *Shadow pops up* Also me: OH LETS GOO

[@tacogodman]

Gotta pop off when you can bro

[@blackkitty369]

I said "none of the three." then Shadow popped up.

[@SalaComMander]

"Come on, SEGA. You have all the rights to all of these [comic] characters" _Ken Penders has entered the chat_

[@GameApologist]

FREEDOM FIGHTERS AREN'T HIS. JUST THAT STUPID SKUNK AND ALL HIS KNUCKLE OC'S

[@SalaComMander]

@@GameApologist Hey, they weren't all Knuckles recolors. Two of them were Sonic recolors. He made Scourge and Rob O' The Hedge.

[@GameApologist]

@@SalaComMander He made Bad Sonic. Ian Flynn just did what he did to ALL of Penders characters...he made them readable for a change. Rob O the Hedge. God I need to lie down. Ugh.

[@SalaComMander]

@@GameApologist My initial point being: Last time SEGA tried to take inspiration from the comics, Ken Penders sued them, despite the fact that they didn't use any of his characters or ideas. And Sonic Team has an enormous aversion to anything that has caused problems in the past, but strangely enough, they are also really bad at identifying problems. So, after Sonic '06 did terribly, they decided "Only Sonic! No other playable characters!" because obviously _that_ was the problem with that game. This is also true for the opposite. "People liked Sonic Colors? WISPS!! WISPS MUST BE IN *EVERY* GAME!"

[@TakeshiInazuma]

I don't want the Freedom Fighters, to have anything to do with the games.

[@wolfganggk9487]

"Sega, what are you guys doing over there"? Sega: Making the fans pay for super sonic....

[@Hynotama]

It was made free like 2 days after release.

[@jagtech490]

Hynotama simp

[@MajoradeMayhem]

What the **FUCK** is a Sonic!?

[@lemonadesnake]

NB: What next, buy Tails? buy Chaos Emeralds?

[@ahmadkazan7994]

Well nintendo makes breath of the wild players pay for a master sword upgrade and square enix made fans pay for character DLCs.

[@Ian_Comics]

"Sonic Mania was 3 years ago." Oh, God... "Sonic Generations was 6 years ago." OH, GOD!

[@lossatbear16]

Ian C I feel old now thank you

[@grandemeraldanims1721]

Thanks I still feel like it just came out

[@ThisIsCasioman]

If you think that's bad, Sonic Unleashed came out 12 years ago.

[@lossatbear16]

Joshes Brioches oh god!!

[@Ian_Comics]

@@ThisIsCasioman Yeah, but I don't care about that one.

[@churchcybergoth2772]

GIVE ME SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG 2

[@GameApologist]

I'll see what I can do.

[@frostsplash]

Game Apologist that point was actually really well put! If this game was in Shadow’s perspective, I fully believe that the story would’ve worked out better with him in the forefront! ESPECIALLY Infinite’s development.

[@santiagolozano3128]

I would love Silver the hedgehog to make sonic great again

[@DARamosYT]

Honestly probably wouldn't mind a new Shadow game since it's established how chaotic the franchise is.

[@ZX_STH]

I would buy that.

[@BonitoJoe111]

That collage of covers from Infinite's theme was brilliantly edited.

[@GameApologist]

THANK YOU. I spent so much time on that one part and you're the only person to show it love! To be fair though, I had a lot of fun tinkering. I ended up splicing the entire song together, but cut it short for the video itself.

[@doomxprie]

SamuraiJo1 thanks!

[@thesoniczone11]

@@GameApologist Can we see that full edited song?

[@GameApologist]

@@thesoniczone11 not a bad idea. It was fun to put together

[@drewstevens2532]

@@GameApologist where did you get the female cover at the end from

[@animeist72]

Sonic just deserves better

[@thevioletskull8158]

Especially Morden Sonic,he can have good games,he has good games,Sega just dosen’t see it yet

[@tiruliru1189]

Sonic in general deserves better.

[@joose1600]

Red, Orange, Green, Blue and *TURQUOISE*

[@marxus4289]

Joose i became WEAK when that popped up.😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@marxus4289]

1:39

[@jordanianstudios]

Don't underestimate turquoise kids

[@AkameGaKillfan777]

I liked how in AntDude's video he said: "It's not that bad" needs to stop being the acceptable standard for Sonic games.

[@demetriuskafkoulas5005]

And jebtube also brought that up by saying we need to stop accepting this series producing fine games because this series didn't become the success it was in the 90s because they released "fine" games.

[@AkameGaKillfan777]

@@demetriuskafkoulas5005 Absolutely

[@tjz3158]

@@demetriuskafkoulas5005 Thats what I'm saying. That's why for the next Sonic game I'm having my expectations high because I want it to at least be a game of the year contender.

[@Chillipeffer]

Why Sonic '06 shouldn't be used as a standard of quality

[@tonyhakston536]

“You have all the rights to all these characters” Should we tell him?

[@tonyhakston536]

That aside, I’m honestly glad they didn’t bring in the SatAM/Archie cast. Never was a fan of them.

[@GameApologist]

@@tonyhakston536 So just to clarify: Penders did not create the Freedom Fighters. and honestly I was not a fan of them for a very long time, but they did grow on me once Ian Flynn got his hands on them. The point I was trying to make was that these were themes that have already been thoroughly explored in other Sonic media. Should not be a challenge to do it right.

[@AarturoSc]

Tony Hakston Should we tell him what? That the cartoon characters never were good to begin with and it's just nostalgia keeping them in old fans consciousness as good? Or the Ken Penders thing?

[@GameApologist]

@@AarturoSc Did not even bother reading the response, did you?

[@AarturoSc]

Game Apologist Sorry, Mr. I didn’t even noticed it.

[@lem0ncrunch]

Sega: **Hears complaints from fans** “Well I guess they don’t want that engine anymore” I swear If they kill the boost formula bc sonic forces physics weren’t on point imma be flippin

[@gameer1010]

I don't really care what formula they use as long as its well designed

[@hurt4322]

I just want a good Sonic game...

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

@TROY SHEETS when have they ever said that they’re changing engine?

[@GMaster4308]

Yeah. Remember when Sonic games had hub worlds? Well, we complained about Unleashed when THAT first came out, and all of a sudden, gone! No more hub worlds! We complained about Sonic '06, so no more open levels! "Heyyy folks! We heard that you hated Sonic '06! So we're gonna KEEP doing everything that made that game bad, and completely ABANDON all the GOOD elements of the game!" Also yes, when I say "all the" I do mean "the few."

[@mythosinfinite6736]

@@Sydney_Angelyt They do it every time something goes wrong (06, Lost World, Storybook, Sonic 4, the entire development history of Xtreme, etc). If a decent idea is executed poorly, instead of refinining the systems, they just permanently delete everything to do with it and never look back. Sometimes they even do it just to be fucking _funny_ or something, like the time they scrapped the entire Hedgehog Engine and made Lost World after Generations did so well. They had to retrofit Lost World's engine to make Forces because they completely discarded the HE for no reason whatsoever.

[@DeeJamari]

I think the game woulda been better if it was a game about Sonic, Shadow, and a new villain named Infinite.

[@ThisJordo]

Literally keep the game the same but leave out Classic Sonic and make Shadow take his place and flesh out his side of the story. You wouldn't have to change much else at all and the story would already be so much better for it.

[@maddrone7814]

Could’ve thrown out the avatar and have silver be playable. The three important hedgehogs again on a game

[@scarfaceAC2]

Prestin B12 Sega would unfortunately never, ever do that because that would be similar to 06.

[@Umbra_Ursus]

Better yet, iron out Infinite in whole: Make him like Mysterio, all smoke and mirrors. As is, he's a train wreck, being a joke in-game, and being bizarrely anime in cut-scenes. I still don't know what his powers are.

[@RobbertRobbert12345]

@@Umbra_Ursus Reality warping basically.

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

Sonic satam was very complex for a cartoon in general.

[@GameApologist]

Especially for a show made to promote a brand.

[@EmuEmi]

Oh wow! Thanks for using my cover to end the video! Also great points in the video. Good stuff!

[@GameApologist]

Thank you!!! I got the credit up on the video, but I completely spaced on sharing the link! My bad! also kudos, you KILLED it.

[@EmuEmi]

Game Apologist Oh I didn’t even notice haha all good! I’m just happy you enjoyed it and shared it ❤️ Keep creating!! Subbed!

[@Genericname]

Holy crap its Emi

[@vanessasonica]

I didn't hate Sonic Forces for me it just felt incomplete. Like the edit things out on last minute and had poor execution. For example if there's actual danger why theres no chaos emeralds and using chaos 0? Might as well get the all powerful Perfect Chaos and other super dangerous villains like the Biolizard and Dark Gaia to heat things up. There's other points but I feel this might get way longer so I'll only point this. Edit: IDK they just Didn't took the game to its full potential...

[@zealouszombie]

Yeah

[@mrdollyman5675]

Yeah I didnt mind it but I did notice a few things, like the metal sonic boss being identical to the final infinite boss.

[@Generic_emo_username]

I fully agree with the "incomplete" part. Remember when it was revealed that Sonic was being tortured, and when we see him again he's seemingly fine? Yeah, that threw me off. And don't even get me STARTED on Infinite's backstory...

[@theneoreformationist]

I really wanted to see either a chaos fight, or a level being destroyed by perfect chaos

[@justanotheryoutubechannel]

It just had a tiny staff mostly composed of amateurs and was really rushed with no idea what they were doing. It’s a shame. At this point we really need to just ditch what’s left of Sonic Team and start over with a new team, and give them a good few years to figure it out.

[@MDWolfe-ks5fu]

Which he wasn’t in the Japanese version, The torturing part was Pontac’s and Graff’s writing Attempting to make it so edgy without realizing the consequences that a pay off needs to come with that information. Plus tails didn’t “lose it,” he was just searching for sonic that’s it. I am such a nerd.

[@drago3036]

Well, that makes me a tad bit less mad with this game. Thanks.

[@rynobehnke8289]

To be fair its still is pretty bad (as a matter of fact is the whole "he just lost it" line the only defense Forces Tails has ever gotten for his afoul writing so he is even worse in the Japanese version) given that Sonic still was locked up in a small Room for 6 months with really should count as torture for a freedom loving spirit like him.

[@tiruliru1189]

Basically, Sonic Forces is poorman's Shadow the Hedgehog.

[@kronosbach5263]

I still find it kinda hilarious. Because the Implication that sonic has been tortured for the better part of a year or so means that Sonic should by all accounts be mentally scarred or at the very least not up for fighting, which would have been a perfect reason for him to be more of a support character while other chars got to take the spotlite, accompanying the protag-oc I dunno man, I just wish it had a payoff.

[@nifralo2752]

Sonic Unleashed has the best story and it had a slightlý dark tone.

[@GameApologist]

I never finished that game when it first came out. Only tried it for a bit and fell off because I was still so bitter about 06 and didn't like the Werehog. I'm really looking forward to tackling that game again for the show and look at it for what it is instead of what I wanted.

[@nifralo2752]

You won't be disappointed it's my fave it's loads of fun. I think it has the best story as Sonic and Chip feel like real friends. In so many other games we are just told Sonic Tails and Knuckles are friends but they don't come off as such.

[@BIIIIIGMAN]

Stupid fucking Warehog stages

[@jayceallen6530]

BIIIIIGMAN they aren’t even that bad, especially if you learn all the cool stuff the werehog can do, yet most players avoided his abilities and combos.but the music is repetitive and I can hate that.

[@gabrielribeiro4020]

@@jayceallen6530 Honestly, people can hate the Werehog as much as they want, but, you can't lie that Sonic Unleashed was probably the best 3D Sonic game ever made.

[@dshaynietheawesome]

They’re new developers in sonic Team with less experience

[@GameApologist]

dshaynie I'm not going to pin the blame on new blood. Still has the same director. Still mismanaged by Sega. Something clearly went wrong during production of this game, and I would love to know what.

[@Smashlander]

I heard it was rushed. Don’t have a source though.

[@sonicrunn3r895]

Game Apologist The game only had about a year of development. Most of the time was spent making the new engine.

[@trojanforfurries2383]

I remember hearing that they spent 3 years working on the graphics engine while they spent the last year working on the actual game...

[@TokyoDrift456]

that was a mistranslation, the game was in development for 3 years, one year was "the final strech"

[@slateoffate9812]

This a problem with fiction, not just Sonic. Pieces that're targeted towards children don't usually tackle mature topics(and when they do it usually isn't executed well because they think 'for kids' means 'no effort necessary') for one stupid reason or another. Kids aren't all stupid. They're not a hive mind. I myself had a grasp on complicated and mature philosophy when I was young. So-called 'mature' shows are in often in the wrong as well, in my experience at least. Prime example; Torchwood. Torchwood thought 'mature' means blood and sex, which 'mature', to me at least, doesn't mean in the slightest. To me, maturity in fiction means touching upon serious and complicated topics, such as moral hypocrisy, death, human nature(key example of this done well; The Marian Conspiracy), and etc. This game could've been that; a mature kids game. But it didn't. I enjoy the gameplay to an extent. Heck, I replay some of the levels every now and then. But the story fails on all fronts.

[@GameApologist]

Lawrence Gist I would not have harped on the story as hard as I did if this franchise hadn't told darker stories in the past. The comics, cartoons, even previous games managed to weave compelling narratives. They don't need to curse or go all Watership Down on it, but yeah, should have been better than this.

[@slateoffate9812]

Game Apologist Agreed(Watership Down? Is that a movie? Never heard of it.). Swearing isn't mature, philosophy is.

[@slateoffate9812]

Unless you're a self-help writer.

[@KuraIthys]

Yeah, childrens stories don't seem to get taken seriously so there's a lot of trash thrown their way. Some writers get it - writing for children still requires, you know. Actual good writing. But many neither seem to care nor understand that this is the case. Also most of the time things that are explicitly called 'mature' are an absolute joke. Typically this means they're full of stupid stuff that basically amounts to what a 14 year old boy thinks is cool but isn't officially allowed to see because they're not old enough. I see this in the attitudes some people have to life in general too. Adults playing with toys used to be heavily frowned upon (more so than nowadays), but this is an extremely shallow and superficial view of 'maturity'. I'd take someone that behaves like a 5 year old most of the time but understands when and where it's necessary to be serious and understands what responsibility actually is over someone that goes out of their way to behave 'mature', but underneath doesn't seem to understand anything at all about what's truly important about being 'mature'. It's the difference between superficial aesthetics and having some actual depth and meaning underneath. To go on a random tangent into anime for instance... I'd argue that the likes of Haibane Renmei is far more a reflection of actual maturity than say, Gantz. One is a non-violent series that involves a cast of mostly young teenagers but tackles some very complex issues about the meaning of life... (also rated PG - eg technically suited to children) The other is a violent, gory, action series that really doesn't make a whole heap of sense and aside from people dying constantly has no real underlying depth to it. This series (in my country) has an 18+ rating... But... Haibane Renmei is mature in the underlying ideas it's dealing with, even if the superficial appearance seems youthful and at times even childish... While Gantz is blood and gore and 'mature' content, but is anything but mature in what it's actual subject matter is really about for the most part.

[@movinghandstudios2874]

The thing is, Sonic wasn't originally made for kids. The (original) Japanese dubs show him as the Shonen (anime aimed at teens and young adults) character he is and even the first American advertisements were aimed at the hardcore gamer rebel teens.

[@thestarboundone8911]

My god I agree so hard on the comic references. The biggest missed opportunity was not calling the resistance the Freedom Fighters

[@danielj.mikoajewski4929]

20:00 aaand you earned a like.

[@bakusatsugo2057]

Sonic Team: We have the perfect plan, let's hire fans to make a game and connect that story with our next masterpiece! Surely ours will be much better in comparison and everyone will love it... Sonic Mania: 9.0 rating Sonic Team: Oh...

[@jeremyabbott4537]

honestly, I bet Sonic Mania's runaway success and Sonic Team's ineptitude is what is preventing anything new coming from that team. Sonic Team got upset that they were upstaged.

[@CandyApples4ever]

Sonic team: … oh no…

[@m3x2007]

Sega should have fans help out on games more often.

[@truearea53]

@@m3x2007 That’s right. The Sonic fans knows what their doing. Sonic team, needs serious help.

[@truearea53]

ikr? Sonic mania came out huge and very surprised that the mania producers are made outside of Sonic team. The Sonic fans needs to help Sonic team, for they’re getting very stale and obviously running out of ideas.

[@reecemysocksoff]

Very well produced, this deserves WAY more attention

[@GameApologist]

reecemysocksoff oh shucks!

[@PadChords]

21:20 "And NONE of them have a connection to this new villain." There's a flashback scene with The Rookie (The OC, Buddy, whatever you want to call it) surviving one of Infinite's attacks. Infinite allows The Rookie to live if it flees screaming. Later, in their first fight, Infinite remarks on how familiar The Rookie's eyes are, before fully recollecting their first meeting. Also, The Rookie comes across the last Prototype Phantom Ruby and uses it to dispel the supernova illusion that Infinite conjures in one of the last fights. While Modern Sonic and The Rookie both fight Infinite, the intention was to set Infinite up as The Rookie's nemesis. The fact that you missed this (at least in your script) shows that their intention failed, just like the other themes in the story failed to come across.

[@DELTARYZ]

yeah just because the details are *technically* there does not mean they were conveyed effectively or serve their actual purpose in the narrative

[@firerulezz116]

I find it funny how he seems to say that OCs in games can't have a character arc, when arguably this one does. The fact it is so easily missed is an absolute point against the game though, even IF the arc were to be terribly amazing.

[@joose1600]

I found out why the physics are screwed Lets take a look with the physic problems: Fast Acceleration aka 2 speeds, jumps carry momentum, and however these aren't problems they're both pointing out, a double jump and wisps. Now where have we seen this before, you know that the leader of the level designer only worked on lost world Thats because Sonic Forces runs on the Sonic Lost World gameplay engine, Hedgehog Engine 2 is a graphics engine, which explains why a lost world level (Infinite battle 1) works so well in the game, plus there's alot of parkour scripts left in the code, whic brings more proof that the SLW engine was used, i'm not trying to defend the game but I feel that I should atleast try to figure out why the physics were screwed.

[@AkameGaKillfan777]

But unlike Lost World, boosting isn't automated, just everything else.

[@CrystalGreymon]

Thank you. It makes so much sense!

[@djsilly9964]

Sonic Lost World is a WAY better game with a WAY better story and semi-decent controls that are obviously better than Sonic Forces. Only positive I can give is that the customizable character's wisp guns, for me, are super fun, and also I am custom trash. And then theres some other things.

[@CrystalGreymon]

Lost World may be a better game than Forces, but that's because its levels are designed to use the physics it has and they're not designed to use the physics from the game before it.

[@d3-penguin954]

Wow that was just lazy. Why the fuck didnt they use the gameplay engine from generations? That would have fixed half of the damn problems with the gameplay.

[@MrMysterious420]

15:08 The Yakuza series is still a thing, where Sega actually crafts an interesting cohesive narrative across multiple releases.

[@andrewrivera190]

Same goes for Bayonetta.

[@FranciscoFJM]

Sega has no say in those games, its al RGG

[@Slazors]

Your videos are criminally underrated, but I'm sticking around until you make it big. Love your videos and rants, man. Keep em coming!

[@GameApologist]

Thank you!!

[@ventarmadness9692]

Slazors same here man

[@yousufaltameemi6502]

Same they’re so good

[@Nathan-gt3xi]

I remember I made a rule during this game, whenever I got hit I restarted the level- You wouldn’t think this would be too hard right? Nope it was absolutely hell with the broken physics and there was always something that went wrong.

[@StRoRo]

Missed ya. Great video. I've always liked Shadow too. He's such an awesome looking character and has been under utilised in the franchise.

[@GameApologist]

Thanks!!

[@deriandiabo7431]

The best Sonic Forces review I've seen so far. Amazing job. The editing was on point, the humor was hilarious, the insight and thoughts on the game were amazingly well-presented and spoken (seriously I got chills when you presented Shadow as the best character and ESPECIALLY when you made a montage of Infinite's theme covers), and overall I actually would come back to this review even though I've already watched it. I also really love your art style and little avatar. They look really good. Anywho, here's hoping for a brighter future for Sonic, and to more reviews like this in the future!

[@GameApologist]

Considering how many Forces reviews are out there, that means the world. Thank you so much.

[@deriandiabo7431]

Game Apologist You're very welcome. Btw, your Shadow 2 idea was genius and I can't believe it isn't a reality

[@GameApologist]

Might just be the test bed for it. Who knows?

[@krishnanayar9461]

I look forward to the day this game is forgotten in the sands of time.

[@dereknight861]

18:05 holy shit! These are like the most fleshed out Sonic OC designs Someone actually put time and effort! They look like they’d be welcomed with open arms in the Archie or maybe even IDW comics!

[@juliewinchester1488]

Personally the only one of them I like of that group is the one in the top right, what I assume is an antelope The others are drawn well but look over designed and have weird color schemes. My favorite Sonic FC designs are those that skirt the edge of being completely original, not barred down by design philosophy of the characters they are based on, and fitting in with other characters, as in you could imagine them being in like the comics or a cartoon or something. Go too far one direction, you get rainbow colored nephilim hybrid species with 5 wings and horns and shit like that, but too in the other and you get Blonic. Hedgehog and alligator looking dudes look fairly generic, beyond the alligator being a fairly ugly looking purple. The other two girls in the center look a little over designed and once again, the green on the girl on the left looks weird. Dude in the bottom right corner is okay I guess, I like edge, but he doesn't come off as very interesting. Antelope girl is super cute though, the outfit kinda reminds me of Sally's modern outfit before Archie Sonic was cancelled, but red instead of blue.

[@Yuti640]

“You’re that Sonic from another dimension” Perhaps you’re right, the 90s may have never ended in another dimension and Sonic’s games were good there

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

Or early 2000s

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

every other game except Shadow the hedgehog, Sonic 06 and Forces is good

[@DeathofChrono]

Am I crazy for wanting a more open world-y sonic based around the IDW sonic comic world? Yknow, going fast in open areas, a bunch of little villages and big towns, Tangle the Lemur and Whisper the Wolf...It'd be so cool! Honestly it would have worked best during the Force's storyline. You run from town to town, protecting them from Robotnik, you play as a soldier for a bit then save sonic and finally go super fast, it could have worked!

[@johanroyce6324]

You know what would have been better; having side missions for the other characters. Have a Tails mission where he has to set up emp devices to disable Eggman's robot, have Amy have delivery mission where she has to safely deliver supplies to other resistance groups and a Knuckles mission where the headquarters is under siege and must defend the base from the badnik horde.

[@DeathofChrono]

Wow uh this comment aged surprisingly well considering Ian Flynn was announced to be helping write Sonic Frontiers' story

[@shadowspartanzeta7]

22:15 it was also shadow's 15th anniversary

[@GameApologist]

didn't even realize. good catch!

[@PiousMoltar]

THAT makes me feel old

[@ClientLost]

I knew I had to wait till the end, was not disappointed lol. Okay, maybe a little :P Great vid as always!

[@GameApologist]

Henry Soto I just want to be cool.

[@evieamity7471]

I see what you did with your character. I really wish they made a new Nights game already. It's one of Sega's best IP's and it's just sitting there. I just loved the astonishing atmosphere of those games so much and it's really disappointing to see such an amazing series remain dormant for over a decade.

[@SultenZone]

Here's My Sonic Cycle: 1.) New game gets released, I'm both glad and concerned. 2.) Reviews come out. I become concerned, but also be like, "well, I haven't seen the gameplay yet and it's still my decision of how well it plays, sooo..." 3.) More stuff gets released. Okay, well, I'm probably still buying the game, either way. 4.) I rant on what bad happened and/or talk about what good was there. 5.) I try to message Sega somehow on what they did wrong.

[@ChannelPup]

This was so well done that I was absolutely stunned that the subscriber number was still only in the triple digits. Nicely done, you deserve more recognition!

[@Kyeju]

Game Apologist I know I'm late to this party, but I wanted to weigh in on your critique of the story. I would love for a game to make use of the Freedom Fighters, especially Sally, but learning about the mandates put on the franchise by Sega Japan, I don't see it ever happening. There's no real connection to English productions for the Japanese market, at least disregarding the movie, and considering that Big the Cat is a thing, I just chalk it up to Japan gonna Japan. I mean, look what happened with the Saturn. I've been running through your videos, though, and I'm impressed so far. Keep it up!

[@GameApologist]

Yeah, I dont think the FF are ever coming back either. Just wouldve been nice to see these guys try to merge all the canons. I feel like that would make for one hell of a game.

[@Kyeju]

@@GameApologist having played and beaten it now, I feel like Forces would have been the best chance. If the whole Ken Penders debacle hadn't gone down like it did, the momentum could have built up enough for those guys (Sally at minimum) to strike such a chord. Best chance now is probably the movies.

[@introspectiveseraphim6251]

As someone who LIKED sonic forces in context, i definitely feel like there was so much missed potential in both story and level design. There was potential for this amazing story, that not only put you in the action with a playable custom avatar, but also couldve tested the limits of all of everyone's favorite existing characters. Hell, I've seen it spawn a WIP mod trying to capitalize on missed story opportunities that i desperately want to play, and i also really wanna try my hand at something like that too. The devs basically just chunked out an unfinished game using 3 inexperienced and overworked designers, slapped sonic team into the credits to cover their tracks, and expected to get away with it. It's honestly no wonder it was only "meh", despite all its potential.

[@SuperVada]

You know what pissed me off? The trailer. All that shit could had been in the game. I want my character fighting a giant eggbot while both Sonic team up to destroy. The game feels like a nerf version of it.

[@therealaloonalarionova5044]

And fun fact: that sonic mania was release just to make another a anniversary game in case some thing happen with sonic forces Also sonic mania pluse's encore mode's intro cutscene shows an example of how sonic forces isn't a continuation to sonic mania Toycat is yes

[@BonniesDeadlyVlogz]

Now that you point it out, it would've been fantastic as a Shadow game.

[@rockhistoria2537]

SHADOW FORCES FORCES FROM THE SHADOWS GODDAMNIT THERE WERE SO MANY POSSIBILITIES OF TITLES-

[@angrybrony]

given what he's done for the idw comics Ian Flynn really should have been called in for this games story. game play still would have sucked but at least the story might have had something.

[@omegaPSI2006]

Being a sonic fan aware of only the games: tragic Being a sonic fan aware of the comics too: painful

[@indigo4518]

Sonic Forces: Pros and Cons (My opinion) Pros: Being able to play as shadow the edgelord The first sonic game to allow you to make an OC The comics explains why the Resistance started Graphics are amazing Soundtrack good as always (but can’t enjoy it cause 90% is the Resistance not shutting up) Wispons are pretty useful sometimes Cons: (here we go) Stages too easy/short (you can seriously beat them under one minute) Story too complicated/rushed 8 GREEN HILL ZONES (includes shadow dlc, and secret stages, etc.) False advertising (saying the generations and colours team worked on this game, which they didn’t, three people worked on the design, two are new, and one worked on lost world) Controls are way too clunky and messed up Sonic doesn’t take things seriously including the fact he was tortured for six months Boost is WAY broken, just jump and boost and your like flying Last but not least, Infinite becomes a bad guy because he was called pathetic (yes, I have read the comics) Actually, the worst con is Tails. I really hate how Sega portrays Tails as a “weak and scared to fight” while in many times Tails knew that he couldn’t depend on Sonic forever, and even fights when necessary. But in forces, he’s like “SONIC IS DEAD, OH NO, IM GONNA BE NOTHING BUT A WEAK PERSON” A very interesting theory is Tails imagination of classic sonic, but I’m not a theorist. Honestly, this may be a new end to modern sonic, and I don’t want this to happen, I want to enjoy video games, like sonic and Mario. Not for sonic to be a outcast toward Sega. I can make many more cons, but my hands are about to be amputated if I keep on typing so yeah.

[@djsilly9964]

I like the OC feature, but not because I had a sonic OC when I found out this game had that feature. It's just because I'm custom trash.

[@SuperMarioBros.Gaming_Official]

Thank you for showing some of my favorite Covers of infinite’s theme !👏😉😁👍😍😻

[@antshield]

Holy shit!! This video spoke to me. Bringing in inspiration from Archie is something I never thought of and would have been genius. Great video dude.

[@joaquindiaz3621]

Ok, tails story Is more well meh for me because "TAILS IS FREAKING USELESS"he got scared from chaos 0,chaos 0, he can defeat chaos 4, And he got sad when sonic (Classic) gone,he gone esrlier And he got not SAd but when he save him "oh Sonic dont want you to leave " Really

[@GameApologist]

That's just another case of poor story telling. They have Tails act out of character because the plot needs him to. I didn't mind him being sad with classic Sonic leaving. I did have a problem with him cowering with Chaos 0. But the plot needed him saved by Classic. So...yeah.

[@joaquindiaz3621]

I like forces plot but i know what is wrong with it, but i like more the japanese one,because respond some things And clarified to

[@dr.shakib9961]

My biggest problem was the writing, they just push so HARD the power of friendship, it' gets gross, it just doesn't feel natural at all, that message can be delivered with context alone yet Sonic won't shut up about it like a door to door salesman.

[@AllardRT]

>about Shadow taking the world back while Sonic was out of commission And you know how could they get Sonic out of commission? By flinging him into some alternate dimension/timeline/whatever, i.e. Sonic Mania. Mania could've been a reverse Generations, with modenr Sonic ending up in the past and having to go back, while Edgy the Hedgy picks up the pieces and tackles the threat the most early-2000s-nu-metal way possible. Yeah, I'm definitely down for Shadow getting another shot (hah!) at a solo title. Hell, I actually pre-ordered Forces to get Episode Shadow right away. I love the Edgehog.

[@CandyApples4ever]

Allard oh!!! mania being reverse generations! Oh my god! Why didn’t Sonic team think of this?

[@Stargazer_Pie]

That shift from Vincent’s Infinite cover to Jonathan’s is just so perfect, I keep replaying it

[@totallytidmouth]

THAT INFINTE MASHUP IN THE BACKGROUND. you madman, you made a banger.

[@VinnimonCinnimon]

You used Emi Jones' cover of Infinite's theme. You're perfect.

[@y2commenter246]

YOU'RE ALIVE!! EDIT: I knew that meme would be here somewhere, lol.

[@GameApologist]

I had to. I'm so sorry.

[@y2commenter246]

I'll let you live just this once...

[@ThatHeatedBread]

Just found this channel, not disappointed, subscribed.

[@sythes487]

I've always wanted an official Sonic Adventure 3 where it played like SA1 with SA2 Chao

[@zero69kage]

One of the things I think would have made the story a lot more interesting would be to have the Avatar have a history with Infinite (and this isn't my idea it came from the Sega Scourge). Basically make the Avatar and Infinite originally be friends but something happened. Either Eggman captured Infinite and experimented on him with the Phantom Ruby or he found it himself and it started to corrupt him. So now you're character isn't just fighting to save the world your fighting to get your friend back. It also gives Infinite a little more depth.

[@bigboomer1013]

Oh yeah another person who thought that the game could of been shadow the hedgehog 2. I always thought that bit would of worked as one and even add more to infinites character and backstory. You ever realised how his theme is mostly talking about how he came to be and how shadow ruind him and scarred him so bad that it drove him to bringing fear to everyone because of his own insecurities he got from shadow? His theme had nothing to do with the name game but rather his relation to shadow. The best part in the song was "after all this time you're back for more". It's mostly just talking about how your character came back to battle him again but it fits better if he was talking about shadow that came back after he defeated him twice, once when his squad was murdered by shadow and the second when he was trying to give him revenge but failed. That guy has no connection with sonic and the gang (besides your character who is not important at all) but has a huge grudge against shadow. Just why Sega.

[@GameApologist]

That's a really good point! That whole song fits WAY better in relation to Shadow. The story would have been waaaaay more interesting going from the perspective of Shadow unknowingly having a hand in the creation of this guy and what he's done to the world.

[@brettbeekmann9324]

The quote "red, green, blue... and tur-quahzz" had me rolling.

[@Shield_Labs]

I just now found this!! haha Just needed to scroll through your vids I guess😅 Awesome Channel!

[@MasterEm243]

God, am I glad that Arin Hanson isn't involved with Sonic anymore.

[@SamBeta20]

The guy who hates sonic games, despite playing them on his lp channel, was involved with sonic? You think they would pick soneone who didn't hate the games or the character. *Looks at Halo franchise.*

[@wmvnotmp4]

The thing that "triggers" me the most is how much people blow things out of proportion. I've seen so many people say that this is the worst game of all time or that its sonic 06 2. At this point, I think people just like making sonic seem terrible.

[@GameApologist]

Olivier.wmv Very true, but at this point its on Sega and Sonic Team to prove the haters wrong. We need better than this. Especially when they have a game that just came out reminding everyone that old school Sonic still works all these years later. A game, from my understanding, got WAY less money than Forces did. This game undermines all the good will Christian and his team garnered. They got people to celebrate a series everyone considered a joke, and Sonic Team came stumbling in screaming "no no! Don't worry! We still have no idea what they're doing!" I agree it's not that bad, and yelling about it goes against the whole point of this show, but the more I think about it, the more annoyed I get. wasn't the worst, but should have been better.

[@SonkerOfficial]

I'ma just say this: when you talk about the world record at 14:07 just as the main chorus of infinite starts playing followed by an excellent rant was brilliant. I'm not sure if the musical thing was intentional, but GOD did it feel it.

[@doomedgundam6684]

14:56 "Mario made Dinosaurs lame!!!" Mario: Oh well-A fuckin see!

[@Furluge]

9:12 - "You have the rights to all these characters" *Ken Penders and his absolutely bonkers court victory that makes no goddamn sense and stabbed the fans in the back has entered the chat.*

[@johanroyce6324]

He doesn't own the freedom fighters

[@Furluge]

@@johanroyce6324 He doesn't own some of them but which designs Penders owns is irrelevant. Sega learned the same lesson FASA did in the 90s about eliminating risk by removing licensed and co-owned designs liabilities Pender proved that any Archie design had the potential to be a legal problem down the road so there's 0 chance Sega will ever touch them again with a ten foot pole.

[@johanroyce6324]

@@Furluge Was it really that difficult for Sega to pay user fees for those ken penders characters?

[@patrickhughes288]

Sega unintentionally encouraged accolade to make a new bubsy game.

[@GameApologist]

ANOTHER THING FOR ME TO BE MAD ABOUT, SEGA.

[@trash_lol]

“where we look for the good in bad games” _it’s blank..._

[@smitty1647]

wow, every second of those covers you played was excruciating and they're probably better than the originals

[@krishnanayar9461]

I had a bit of a more positive outlook, but I agreed mostly. I too was split right down the middle, but It left me optimistic for the future. Where it it disappoints, it disappoints. But what it does right, it REALLY does right.

[@gdemerald581]

I never thought sega could make the werehog into a GAME!

[@cjmccabe7615]

I love this channel. I cant deny though this game let me down ( it also teases the adventure fans too much)

[@shawnsuckstm3353]

20:00 I just love the kinda fading in with that song, really wish thats now the original song was done. Your getting an offical sub from me.

[@conlow501]

I would have love this too have been shadow the hedgehog 2

[@GameApologist]

Who knows, maybe this was testing the waters. It's good to see him back in action at least.

[@gabymogax4283]

I grew up with Advance, Rush & Rivals yet my favorite game is 3&K (I have the DS collection Mania was amazing, honestly think black knights wasn't bad at all Enjoyed 06 lol Riders 1 is my favorite racing game I like adventure 1 over 2 Thou I miss having frequent good Sonic games. After lost world there wasn't really much till mania Also where's Dimps I miss them

[@bandicootsauce4569]

I'm just glad that the IDW comics exist. No, I don't think the existence of those comics 'fixes' Sonic Forces, but they certainly built something worthwhile atop a crumbled ruin, narratively speaking.

[@giannipiscitelli5335]

I enjoyed the video as much as I've been enjoying the others,keep up with the great work buddy ! :)

[@GameApologist]

Gianni Piscitelli Hey thanks!!

[@viruschris3160]

"SEGA has the rights to the Archive characters" Umm... wasn't there a legal issue back in the day, due to Ken Penders, that caused a lot of problems? Sorry if I'm late, but when Sonic Chronicles was released on the DS by Bioware a certain Sonic comic writer, Ken Penders, slammed a copyright claim for the first Sonic RPG using an original set of Echidna Tribe characters inspired by the Archie comic stating SEGA and Bioware "stole" his characters and ideas. Which wasn't the case because they're NOT the same characters and took references due to show their love for that story point (convoluted as it were), but sadly due to both Ken and SEGA being dumb on trying to SUE him after disputing the first claim. It now resulted in the Archive Comics have to do a "hard reboot" of the storyline and the lost of MANY characters made by Ken Penders like Amy's cousin Rob O'Hedge and Sonic's parents as well as the name "Mobius" forever now not LEGAL allowed for both Archie and SEGA to use to refer to Sonic's world and the animal folks. I'm not sure about Sally and the others. They were originally made for the cartoon and Honey the Cat IS a SEGA/Sonic Team owned character as she appeared as a video game character first in Sonic Fighters (though originally in the data and not finished, but the re-released did?). So as much I would LOVE to keep some references to the Sonic comics... because someone's ego felt butt hurt and tried to sue it messed up the Sonic comic universe forever. I know the Hooligans, Fang the Weasel/Nick the Fang and his crew were referenced in the IDW Sonic comics so it looks like they can be used still. Also made the story confusing in the Sonic game world by saying Sonic and friends can travel between two worlds; the Human World and Their World. And it just felt... why? Why couldn't they make it where both Humans and Anthro-Animals/Mobians could co-exist in the same world? They can use the human models from Sonic Unleashed! Honestly there's a lot of mess going on with Izuka and Sonic Team which is a damn shame. I really enjoyed Sonic Forces and 100% one of the three versions I own (PC, Switch, and PS4), but ti's a shame that a lot of LOST potential with this title. It could've been REALLY something great. But alas. I dislike the Boost formula a lot. I wish the Adventure style came back. Another note is the localization between the game in English and Japanese is different. In the Japanese version Sonic wasn't torture... he was having a rough time in the Death Egg. Most likely Eggman gloating in Sonic's face which is why Sonic is fine when we see him again. And Tails didn't lost it... he simple lost contact with HQ or went missing. The English version made it darker for a dark story sake when the context WASN'T that. It really screwed up the plot when they changed the lines and the scenes don't reflect that. So much behind the scenes that really hurt game's overall potential.

[@ligtningdog6399]

Penders made a lot of characters and background lore for the Archie comics; but not the important stuff. Anything that appeared in SatAM cartoon, like Sally, Mobius, etc belong to Sega. But Sega choices not to use them because Sega of Japan is run by the same dumbasses that keeps messing up the games series.

[@viruschris3160]

@@ligtningdog6399 I see. Well I'm glad that the Freedom Fighters and other terms from Sonic like their home world is still intact to a degree. Even the Adventures of Sonic the Hedeghog characters like Breezie the Hedgehog can be used by SEGA/Sonic Team, right? Sadly Sonic is more popular and beloved in the West than his home country he was created in. I do hope to see them again one day. Considering they kept on being used after the hard reboot.

[@ligtningdog6399]

@@viruschris3160 Breezie is save too, as far as I know. I don't want to get your hopes up, but there have been rumors that Ian Flynn, the head writer for the IDW Sonic comics, is fighting to have Freedom Fighters come to the new comics. But even it it's true, it's all up to Sega. And at this point, they don't know what to do with Sonic, so it's anyone's guess what would happen.

[@viruschris3160]

Ligtning Dog Well good to know at least. If they won’t do anything with them I’ll use them in properly a fanfic and/or RPG fa game with them in it. It would be nice to see more of the other Sonic characters beyond the game one. You know to show more of the world with various characters.

[@ligtningdog6399]

@@viruschris3160 That reminds me that some actually is making a RPG fan game. It's a still in the early stages but it's pretty cool. Here's a link if you want to check it out. www.sonicfangameshq.com/forums/showcase/sonic-the-hedgehog-rpg-sage-2019-demo.336/

[@doubt2022]

SHADOW FORCES YOU TO SAY THE N-WORD

[@TheJadeFist]

The algorithm brought me back to this video, and now I'm thinking something that I'd like to see at some point but Sega will never do. Have the villain actually kill Sonic, but because of his connection to the chaos emeralds and by extension the master emerald, Tikal could save his soul and pull it into the emeralds with her. It could be a way to keep him semi around for a game, maybe save the reveal or for either Knuckles or Tails to learn he's still there, and maybe can talk to people through the emeralds. Maybe can even spy on the bad guys who have an emerald he's watching through and can pass information on to the good guys. And of course via magic bs in video games give a chance to bring him back later, maybe with the power of the Phantom Ruby create a real illusion of his body or w/e.There fan service, cartoony plot devices, potential for serious seeming emotional stakes, and it can all go back to normal for the next game. It's better than 5 seconds after he dies, he's alive but tortured but 5 seconds later again, nah he's perfectly fine, also his handcuffs ran out of batteries.

[@SpeedDeDe]

YEAH CLASSIC SONIC TAKE US WITH YOU PLEASE

[@millennials4trumpmillennia455]

Great review and I agree with almost everything.

[@GameApologist]

millennials4trump millennials4AlexJones thanks!

[@bunniz]

Why doesn’t Sonic Team seem to care about sonic anymore? They need to replace the team with sonic fans.

[@MistyKathrine]

I could write a better narrative for likely a fraction of the price.

[@lukebanks5511]

This is such a great review i have subbed and liked! Please maybe some more sonic reviews on maybe the past games

[@lukebanks5511]

Responded 1 year later thanks though lol.

[@lydiasteinebendiksen4269]

I can't believe I have never herd the "shadow the edgehog" -pun before, but I love it, and will now exclusiveky refer to the ultimate lifeform as such.

[@JaySurf27]

This game could have been better if the classic stages had some obstacles and stuff. Remember the old chemical plant was so fun. It could also have been fun if the modern stages has some sort of challenge.

[@JaySurf27]

damn i played this game 2 years ago?💀

[@MP2066]

I....wow yeah Shadow being the lead Character would of been really good

[@SoggyHotDoggy]

The running thing with this series is that they have good ideas and can never execute them well. Like hearing the ideas behind this game gave me hope before remembering that I can’t ever have hope with this series anymore, and I’m glad I did that so I couldn’t be disappointed by the game itself. I had someone describe it to me as aggressively okay

[@ryz8804]

I know I’m late to this but if Sega really did go all out with Infinite being created in a lab he could potentially have been a really good Shadow villain. Both were artificial life forms created by the Robotnik family but the only difference now is Shadow takes up Sonic’s role from Adventure 2 and Infinite takes up Shadow’s... only he never had a Maria.

[@johnnygoodwin4904]

Me: *Plays sonic the hedgehog for mobile once. Also me: YES, I TOO AM A CLASSIC SONIC FAN

[@cherrypopscile3385]

This game is amazing because it pleases NO ONE. Do you like the classic games? Here's worse classic sonic Do you like the tone of the "Dark age" games, adventure, or even the comics? Heres the weakest story in ANY sonic game. Do you like the Meta Era games or gameplay? Here's levels so easy they'd make colors blush with garbage physics. Did you wanna make a cool OC? Here's a bellow average creator. It is the ultimate game that will please no one, and annoy everyone

[@mileftya-1190]

Thanks for your videos, they make me not alone.........

[@michaelrhett4958]

I’m just saying: Forces would’ve been the PERFECT opportunity to reintroduce the Freedom Fighters into the modern era, have them be a secret team of resistance fighters who protected south and westside island or something, ANYTHING!

[@braydenb1581]

I'm not a fan of the boost series. I kind of want to see modern sonics level structure to feel like a racing game with platforming elements.

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

I wouldn’t want my future kids playing this game. I’d want them to play 3&Knuckles and the adventure games and unleashed

[@GameApologist]

I really need to check out Unleashed again. I did not like it at all when it first came out, but I'm seeing a LOT of people come around on it in recent years.

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

Game Apologist Actually I wouldn’t want my kids to play adventure 2 because the treasure hunting levels in that game aren’t fun. The only fun levels are the Sonic and Shadow levels.

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

Game Apologist It’s just my opinion. If you like Sonic Adventure 2 that’s great!

[@mirandamusprime]

This is my favorite game of ALL TIME!

[@TheAuron32]

Shadow as the lead character would have made so much more sense.