Game Design with Etho! - HermitCraft Vault Hunters - Behind The Scenes

More chaos vaulting with Etho while talking about Game Design on the HermitCraft Vault Hunters server
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[@monclairs]

ohhh snappers

[@gabrielzimmer1717]

Most comment of all time

[@datogachechiladze8139]

Lol

[@witherboy4027]

Ohhh snapping turtles

[@witherboy4027]

Ohhh snapping turtles

[@uberblarrf]

God I will miss these vault+talk videos with iskall and etho after the season end😢

[@Poopstain24]

Well good news! It seems that Etho will be joining the Vault Hunters SMP next season

[@mikoajpietrych6168]

I love that this Etho guy who just do stuff is actually incredible usefull on feedback for game development and not only that, he also provides amazing ideas to solve various problems like veteran of the industry. What a legend, he is, truly he is the MC of Mincraft.

[@stevena105]

"This Etho guy" ☠️

[@bodhiyonzon8912]

yeah he should totally start his own KZbin channel

[@bearrocks1065]

@@bodhiyonzon8912 ethos lab...

[@ded_still_alive]

I wish Etho was a real human irl

[@BlahCraft1]

1:30 I like how at the beginning of the season Etho said his strategy was to be so speedy and agile the mobs wouldn't be able to touch him, now he just ignores the mobs and lets them swarm him.

[@DJBaphomet]

11:10 Iskall, Vault Hunters is *absolutely* a game. Even if it's built on Minecraft with a bunch of mods, you and your team have put in an immense amount of effort into the design and balance and progression of the pack that it is an entirely original experience inside of Minecraft. Just because it's built on top of another game doesn't mean it isn't its own game. I mainly say this because even though it's not intentional, it discredits the amazing work you and others have put into this modpack, credit that you lot most definitely deserve to boast with how well-made this pack is. You deserve to be able to call VH a game, even if you think it shouldn't be just because it's being created with the help of a bigger platform below (which, if we're honest, is equivalent to a game using a game engine to be made anyways)

[@ThatDamnedGamer1]

absolutely true, remember that Dota 2 started off as "just a mod".

[@PeacefulMaelstrom]

I describe it as turning Minecraft into a rogue like

[@diggoran]

Hell, even Decked Out which is entirely vanilla and has no code of its own outside of the in-game redstone (not even command blocks which would also be vanilla), I would consider its own Game. Not even just a minigame, but a full-on Game.

[@iano3354]

Especially Decked Out 2, given that it took nearly a year to build

[@kaneconqueror6560]

I think what people mean when they say taking away the extra time from relics is taking away part of the game is that not everyone is good at building farms and builds super efficient ways of getting all the different materials. For a more casual player getting from wherever they set up base all the way to the end for chorus flowers might involve multiple hours and a dragon fight. There is an investment to get in a vault that can be relatively significant depending on the player, so there is a desire to get as much out of the vault as possible. It feels really bad to spend over an hour making a crystal and then be forced to bail due to rng, and if you are spending an hour or more to get into the vault then you want as much time inside it as possible. I know that there are settings to make crystals free if you just want to run vaults uninterrupted, and I played a world like that myself for a while, and I know that there are settings to make the crystals cheaper. The other side of the issue is the completionist side that wants to loot every chest in a room and every room in a vault. Each minute taken away is less of the vault you get to explore and more loot you have to ignore and pass by. It feels like buying a cake, eating a single slice, and then throwing the entire rest of the cake away. Personally, I enjoy the game and think iskall does a pretty good job of balancing things, but I think this is a perspective he can be a bit dismissive of. My suggestion would be a new seal, similar to chaos vaults, where the vault timer count up instead of down, and a negative modifier is added every five minutes. Preferably with "checkpoints" you can exit from occasionally throughout the vault. This would let people stay in the vault to loot for as long as they can withstand, while still encouraging speed and playing into the "risk/reward" dynamic.

[@rj-dc1bk]

this is my favorite content just chill talking with etho

[@matthewchristensen-zz6rc]

Saaaaaaaaaame! Especially since Etho isn't posting a lot

[@jelqy]

not the Illmango hopperclock xD

[@EvesterBee]

I was just refreshing the feed hoping for more VH after finishing playing it myself for the day! Idk if I should thank or curse you for getting me addicted…

[@AkiSan0]

for the relics: give people options. maybe with different pedestals. one give you double the time, but half the loot. this is for people that dont like the rush/stress. in the end you get the same out of it, but you have 50 minutes instead of 25. this would also make this game more accessible for people who cant play fast. than as etho said. you can have more pedestal types. one reduces the time by 1 minute, but gives you 25% more chests or so. and one would reduce chests, but give you more enemies and soul shard chance. so you can customize your game a bit instead of "just nerfing" relics. i was so proud of you lately, that it seemed you have gotten rid of the "i enjoy this so people enjoy it exactly like i do" view. some like to play the vault slower, some need to play the vault slower. please stay open, as you have shown your growth as a developer lately!

[@AkiSan0]

26:30 you say that and then "dictate" how relics should work. :D (thats why im saying, sure you can change them however you like, but if you give people options instead of just taking something away, it is always better received)

[@Starhunter1975]

Etho has 4 treasure chest now! Thanks for the video Iskall.

[@Daniel-rd6st]

Loved Ethos reference to "faster than light" a game i have spend quite a few hours on myself. I wish there was a part two!

[@loszeusgaming2604]

40:00 iskall dropped the whole 6 unidentified god charm in the bin 😂 Gods should remove thier favours as a punishment. Always fun to watch etho and iskall chaosing Edit : he got them back 😂

[@heighleybaily8037]

This is basically an etho and iskall podcast 😊

[@filipstefan8048]

I just realized how much I miss the og vault hunters. I know this is much better as a standalone game but I really liked how the relic booster packs worked or how the boss was a viewer. Also traders are gone. I saw it evolve with my own eyes but still can't believe how much it's changed

[@roeemashal1565]

Lets go!!! More etho and iskall!

[@toonie568]

Isko or ethkall

[@VoidPatron]

i always thought relic collecting was interesting and unique way of having progression as the reward for time put into vaults and giving more time was a bonus. But playing with an additional 5 minutes has really shown what those minutes can do especially mid to late game. I think with how the hourglass relic gives a base amount of time combining the two would be interesting way of both nerfing total time added but still giving the choice of allowing those that value that time to take it

[@DavidJohnsonFromSeattle]

Iskall: ... you could build an ilmango hopper clock Etho: Uh huh...

[@238Hero238]

Man, I love these game design talks. I feel like I'm learning a lot of concepts and design patterns for when I finally get around to making indie games between my day job programming. Vault Hunters is my favorite modpack in ages, keep it up!

[@sammie3277]

I am obsessed with these vods I check daily for new one and am super excited everytime we get multiple episodes in a day. Keep up the amazing work. I also live seeing you and Etho, Stress and False run vaults together, it makes my day. Oh snappers We can't get enough of Etho and his treasure chests . You could buy the next one from him lol.

[@MatsSandfors]

oh iskall, warms my heart hearing you speak of grim fandango and monkey islands. Games of a lost era. Those games molded my problem solving brain. Wonderful genre! For me it started with Day of the tentacle, mostly watching my older siblings play. These vods where you hang with other hermits are quickly becoming my favorite small content!

[@astrogamer927]

Suggustion: vendoors should also sell an objective item. Like braziers, a brazier with no modifiers for some amount of gold, or a random scav item, someone needs of a random amount for some amount of gold, straight elixer for gold in elixer, etc.

[@laser_fps]

time to watch the entire video, as a current Game Design student at university this should be very helpful 🙏

[@jacoblockett390]

i just came up woth a great idea for relics!! instead of them adding time to the vault, they could add permanent themed modifiers to your vaults!! for example, if you complete the cupcake relic, all your cake vault crakes have an additional 10% quantity, dragon relic adds 10% quantity or cascade to your coin piles, miner relic adds a fortune level to ores you mine within vaults (or an additional plentiful modifier), richity could maybe reduce prices in vendoors, stuff like that. obvs scaling would have to be calculated so that the bonuses provided are equal to or less than ~1:30 additional time, but it makes the relics feel more unique to achieve, provides more incentive to trade your relic parts to other players. Maybe even add a way of choosing which relics you have activated: just toggle them on or off (right click the pedestal, it becomes coloured when activated), and you can only maybe have 1-3 active at once. it provides another layer of choice to the player for targeted farming, while potentially reducing their power, and making them feel more unique.

[@monclairs]

"blow me up not the chest!" 😂

[@spiltcoffee7093]

It's funny that etho mentioned DOTT and Sam and Max, I just finished rewatching those series

[@aki1o1]

Yaaaa new eth-kall podcasts just dropped...

[@cocomouse332]

Gonna miss these vault run uploads when the 100 days finish. Thank you for this series iskall!

[@TheAdamDundas]

I want to see more of my boy Ladders' perspective, but I'm always happy with Iskall.

[@cathal7537]

The Vanilla Expanded team make mods for Rimworld and they share their road map which the community loves

[@eskainne2916]

You talking about how thorn builds are underrated is making me feel better about my thorn build because I'm too lazy to turn around to fight mobs XD I love watching these unedited vault runs and the changes you talk about making in the game, it's super interesting to see the kind of logic that goes behind balancing between two vastly different player bases and hearing the reasoning behind nerfs make me less salty about it than if it happened without any warning

[@mitochondria1065]

Etho out of context: 1:32 LOLLLLLLLLL

[@the_darkiller9369]

Ayo

[@thewebcamboyz]

Vaultbusting. This is what we needed.

[@FINN-nz3nu]

Still love the relic stuff, it feels like side mission of collecting each set. The catalysts is just one time use. I think people like the permanent increase time in their game.

[@Arcella1981]

i do like the permanent time, and it kind of just feels like it is being taken out "just because" so what we need to do is have Stress complain on how she loves the relics and the time, so then iskall will add more of them xD

[@Bob_Smith19]

Everyone likes more time except Iskall. He only likes it when he’s abusing kiwis at the end of a run. Most people use kiwis rarely if ever.

[@Arcella1981]

I dont think he is taking it out to be mean, i think he really thinks that it will make the game better, but like what i dont understand is why all of a sudden is the extra time bad? it was fine in VH1 ( I am assuming VH1 had relics, it might not have ) it was good for VH2 and it was/is fine for VH3 up until now. @@Bob_Smith19

[@GH0STmonk]

That is why I am excited about the changes to catalysts, the system was one among many I was struggling to learn and so I never ran them which made it hard to target for loot that I wanted except via Rarity and Quantity. I really like the recent changes that really lets us customize our vault runs, if we want loot, if we want specific loot, if we want xp, etc. we can choose to run vaults that do that.

[@PeacefulMaelstrom]

Love listening to you and etho chat

[@Wee_three_men]

I love these episodes

[@joeys2234]

4:18 I somehow hadn't caught it elsewhere but I really picked up such a PoE vibe from the item affixes in VH. Makes me even more excited to check it out

[@epicthief]

Game Dev talk is my favorite, wish Tango had time to review and collab with ya

[@gamepowerempel5150]

I was just about to sleep Guess i'll sleep in 40 minuten then

[@motherofdraakjes]

same

[@MrScotttraynor]

my own negative on removing the time on relics is my body isnt 'cooperating' as well so wrists/shoulders/etc and not as fast movements.. so like the extra time is all, not as pressured with a extra min..

[@TyroRNG]

I think you can change the default vault time somewhere in settings or configs or whatever if you feel like you need more time in the vaults. Ofcourse this is limited to single player or your own servers

[@MrScotttraynor]

@@TyroRNGi mean its not a end all/be all, just means more runs, and less playing over all, but not to have him change it just for me, is silly.. i kinda liked ethos idea of having a non-changeable setting in the begging of a world start.. say easy, med, hard "vault time base"? and once set cant be changed

[@gold_tuna6584]

Personally, I don’t see removing features as “removing features”, but I see them as improving the game design. For example, when mojang removed zero tick farms

[@jerseyd7131]

Just want to say thanks you - you’ve kept January going with something to watch

[@matthewparker9276]

I found a dig site when I was around level 30. I did not have inventory space for everything I got from that room, and even left my paxel behind by accident.

[@PG-zv9mf]

Woo new video! Edit: Dang 3 brains on the first clump of living chests

[@MrAlecdanstudios]

need more iskall etho content

[@jaiveersingh5243]

i personally loved the idea of there being challenge rooms, like the raid rooms you mentioned in a previous vod, i think they are much better for the game compared to something like that one follow the order room in VH second edition

[@erinkarp]

Iskall's lava parkour at the start was terrifying

[@Andreeee75]

18:38 My point simply was that not everyone can play at yours or Etho level (c'mon). If you watch Welsknight you can see that the extra 30 sec of vault time made a huge difference for him (he has more than double of your death rate and 20% less succes rate). I just think it's better to adjust the game around the average player not the outlier like you or Etho. If my comment sounded like I was calling you a idiot I just wanna say that I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention.

[@gigantor5380]

Man I'm so addicted to Iskall playing VH

[@imthatchris]

The sets of relics could give you rolls on additional buffs for the vaults? Like the system you used to use for streams. So it’s not always good but it can be. You may need less relic sets or maybe it’s 2 full sets for a positive roll or something? The time isn’t always what you want with a vault, and it keeps it unique every time

[@plantcraftie4141]

I'm a Fireball + Smite all maxed out!! It's so good

[@Random_Person2]

Thorns builds are super fun. Might not be as viable with Etho in hard though because more mob HP kind of kills it

[@barrinburg612]

As far as farming the chorus flowers, snowballs will break them. And as etho said you can go pew pew pew with them

[@todmustache2884]

29:39 Etho really said “After 🎶 you get what you want you don’t want it🎵”

[@theJMK27]

Farming that x2 views with the etho upgrade

[@ridgeswartz7709]

Been watching all the behind the scenes vaults, and it's great fun to sit back and enjoy. I don't understand why coins aren't in chaos vaults - why is there no wealthy modifier?

[@quinn9332]

I think the time limit for the vault is great! Lets say there was no time limit, or unlimited relics for example, youd get so bored of the vault. There would be no pressure to complete. Also if you made the vaults longer, it would have to be harder to complete, and then people would still complain. Plus if they want to play with longer time just use the time trinket lol

[@gme4236]

as soon as iskall makes cake seals uncraftable, ' off to an older version for a sec for seals, than back to the new and improved cakes.'

[@kingducky7123]

There should be a lucky potion that increases the lucky hit chance for a short duration maybe 5 seconds but the percent goes up every potion upgrade

[@m.k.outlaw3198]

Roadmap - Blizzard just did this last and this year for World of Warcraft and the community loves it. they only have set dates for some things and most things are just roughly put in the map so you get the idea if they come at the end of the year or the middle . They said it helped them release pressure since everyone is on the same line on what they can expect

[@danielerdozain]

40:13 iskall scrapped the god charms he didn’t roll. that hurt

[@atemdow1220]

Luckily managed to saved though I’m very surprised he did

[@JoelRehra]

Relics suggestion: Relics could just add one random positive modifier to the vault on entering.

[@fav-chuck9207]

iskall the Turt Stomper!

[@karotts]

You could add Chess challenge puzzles: mate in 1. There are millions of those existing and it would only take one room.

[@barrettp8266]

Etho!

[@truepat7519]

You could possibly use a potato cannon (create mod) to knock down corus flowers

[@dgris7944]

Re: relics. Grinding for all the relics was a challenge so I hope they will still be useful in some way. Using catalysts to add time to a vault is viable, however is seems that Extended (and Accustomed) catalysts are very rare compared to the others. Maybe update the catalyst tool to require a botania-style 'catalyst' (lol) to output either guaranteed catalyst types, or a higher chance of them?

[@Bob_Smith19]

How was it a grind? The booster packs are just loot and you picked some unidentified relics as you went. You just ended up with/ completed sets as you went along.

[@keppycs]

7:31 tf you called him washed AND old lmfao XD

[@justmarcus33]

its a running hermitcraft/life series joke. Etho is washed up

[@user-yd7ui4kj4z]

Why not make relics optional. Like a /game rule or something. Maybe an option in settings.

[@sohlasattelite971]

It's less code to maintain. It doesn't make sense to attend to a feature that isn't even used in the "main game". They keep adding things to the VH, so it would mean they have "waste time" to make it "compatible" with the feature, that is not even used in the "main game". And inevitably there would come a point, where they would have to rewrite something(like with the chest generation for the chest cascading in the cake vaults) and it would be unreasonable to keep maintaining the feature that is not used.

[@TheVampireFreddo]

32:04 there is a dirt “F” on the ground. The vault is paying its respects to Stress 😢

[@dogerio]

I don't know why, but knowing Etho played FTL just warmed my heart...

[@ColeCorvin]

I have found 2 trinkets in total in my play through so far at lvl 66. I don't have a huge amount of item rarity and haven't target looted at all. But that is rng for you as well. Just wanted to add to Ethos comment saying it isn't difficult finding trinkets rather specific ones.

[@Bob_Smith19]

You haven’t run enough vaults, opened enough chests. I had around 15 at your level but I was running plunderer’s pearls about 66% of the time.

[@joey281992]

Can there be an orb to craft or only find in treasure rooms to add an additional repair to tools.

[@T1nyRaccoon]

OK, iskall, this may be a dumb idea. However, what if you had an option in your settings to change how long vaults last. maybe this could be a command, i don't know. However, this could also do stuff like: - make the crystals harder to make - Make mobs etc harder. - increase chances of bad random modifiers. just a suggestion after listening to you at 18:35 to 19:00

[@Darkhold_User]

You dont have to put dates in a roadmap Iskall so people wont get disappointed

[@tricmagic]

10:46 is that a skeleton holding a trident firing a bow at you? Are they using it as an arrow? On another note, I'm surprised there isn't a Omega Garden or Omega God Room in the vault generation. Latter isn't really an issue with increased god altars, but former would be nice if you could make offerings of gold for fruits. How does Etho always seem to complete the puzzle rooms though.

[@SlimothyJames03]

holy crap etho talked about DOTT

[@BeckyD133]

What was the thing called where there were different kinds of bosses in the vault? It was in ur single player series a year or smth ago so it was an old update… but I forgot what that was

[@bunta3434]

Grimfandago I must have played it through 5 times you can get it on your phone.

[@jamesthenabignumber]

I am astonished Etho hasn’t played Grim Fandango or Monkey Island! Iskall, I love a video of you just talking about your favorite LucasArts games!

[@ivansumic995]

That was excactly what i thought aswell... It was one my all time favorite... And the best part at that time you had to figure it all out by yourself. There was no other way... I can't remember how many times i got stuck on the curse of the monkey island

[@Bob_Smith19]

He played the better games, like DOTT and Sam & Max.

[@adirinnexxus]

there was a very good video essay recently about replayability in games, which may help in the ideas you were talking about?

[@slap_k_man1862]

i would like it if relics gave a permante affect thats scales with each on so let say one relic gave a buff of like 5% to trap disarm you would end somewhere near 50% not thats a big number but something like that would be nice a buff you dont really get on gear

[@madraptorgirl8455]

I hope Iskall85 reads the good comments too. The game is amazing and all of the changes have only made the game better. Having challenges in a game is a good thing and SO MANY people love it! Thanks Iskall85!

[@vertopolkaLF]

26:15 wait, these are drop from specific mobs? How the player should know about that? Maybe it would be good to display it somewhere

[@patrickd2853]

Will you return to your singleplayer play-through when update 13 has fully released?

[@strangepanthers]

Wahhh I'm so addicted XD

[@RendaAdams]

What if you could choose a couple of yhe types of chests you need for a scav vaults? Not rarities, just the chests. This way you are looting what you want and it adds the choice like etho was suggesting

[@ReyGPC]

Did he cut out the part where they check the artefact?

[@electrum5579]

19:20 Etho's played FTL? Common Etho W

[@doll7660]

waiting to find out how iskall got to level 90

[@joegote]

First muffin man in long 😂

[@lelgamers419]

I can only run a few vaults a day and i am absolutely pitiful at running them. So have trouble finding stuff like trinkets. But i understand thats on my end and not game design

[@DaidsHole]

To answer Etho's question about rapid fire: potato gun from create!

[@justcallmeness]

The potato gun isn't in the VH pack.

[@DaidsHole]

@@justcallmeness huh, you learn a new thing every day. I assumed it would just be turned off in vaults.

[@user-bf6kx3gz5y]

You should add a maze room

[@therudecanadian8068]

Hey Iskall, I apologize if this question has been answered else where, but if so I have yet to find it. When will this update get released?

[@corythe_cable_guy_6097]

I'm so jealous of java, I wish there was something like this for bedrock!!

[@mockingbert3023]

Would be fun if the co op vaults have a damage decrease the further the players are from each other, maybe with harder difficulty. I have no idea how vault hunters works though

[@lukafichtl8215]

would it be possible to make artifacts optional? maybe implement some judgment for choosing artifacts to stay the same ( like a message popping up saying, "Are you sure you need this?"). Because I think that there are big discrepancies between new and seasoned players, and it's almost impossible to find a well-rounded compromise. Also, this would make the game more customizable since it would allow a middle ground between the difficulty settings

[@deacontomm7305]

Is the mkne room still a thing?