Gary Judd KC on the Treaty of Waitangi & the Prospect of a Referendum

Michael Laws speaks to Gary Judd KC about the Treaty of Waitangi and the prospect of a referendum.
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[@woofwoof9647]

Lets have that Referendum 🎉 🐾🐾

[@mikewalters5815]

Sad to say the Government will bucle and forget the Minority doesn't Rule. 😊

[@andreatodd3095]

It's about presenting the legal facts of the Treaty before select committee otherwise we will be legislating on lies and assumptions yet again

[@Digmen1]

Yes, but not too soon, we have a lot of people to educate about the treaty and the various versoins - really only one!

[@cameronlabone6050]

Wouldn't it be good to have a proper debate about such a important thing.

[@woofwoof9647]

@@andreatodd3095 Yeah their Lies , The Pig Trougha's 🐖 🐷

[@WiremuRanginui]

At what point does someones ethnic background change? 1/2 ,1/4,1/20th percentage? this is a mine field of problems. The last government created a industry of grifters who only care for themselves. Glad this is starting to be talked about.

[@barneyboy2008]

It's nothing to do race, it's to do with descent from the original signees.

[@MarkTulloch]

How long does a tea bag need to be in a cup of water for it to become tea.

[@korocam9137]

The Divisive Colonial Blood quantum theory is what has kept our First Nation Whanau in the americas and throughout the world in political oppression! Free your mind from Mental slavery.. if you have Maori Whakapapa you are Maori!

[@Cyril_Squirrel]

The original colonialist signees' lineage appears in most Maoris as well. In many many cases there is more colonialist signee lineage in those who claim to be Maori than there is Maori lineage. @@barneyboy2008

[@glassini]

Thank you Gary Judd KC.

[@andreatodd3095]

Very interesting interview, facts matter, we should go back to those original recordings from W Colenso follow what was said because that is the actual basis for the Treaty, it's evidence from the day. To call for clarification of the Treaty by ACT is a good thing for all of NZ, nothing will change if we don't get and seek legal clarification for future generations. Let that process happen.

[@rogermartin8435]

Spot on. It does appear that all the native meetings seem to me to be theatre rather than a reasoned respectful discussion of the maori position to aid an understandinbg of the treaty and what was specifically agreed without all the shenanigans about meanings interpretations etc. I lnow the legal eagles want their pounds of flesh but really this aggravation needs to be addressed sufficiently so we New Zealanders can get on with more important matters. Not quibbling about privileges in an egalitarian country.

[@andreatodd3095]

@@rogermartin8435 yes !

[@nigelmcculloch3746]

Unfortunately some time after the treaty was signed there was a movement towards a unique Maori/pakeha joint government and I think it even had a name, but I could be wrong, anyway the cowboys rode into town and realized the colonists were going to out number the Maori anyway and just took what they wanted!

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

Ahh no the actual basis is the Maori version, like he said- it's the only version that matters, that's why they had to approach the UN first. ...still don't know how that went.

[@rogermartin8435]

@@myresponsesarelimited7895 this needs to be hurried along then. If you are correct it further underlines that the UN is at best a talkfest for ex-politicians to remain on a gravy train. A large part of that bloated organisation needs to be deleted or reviewed and resized.

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

That's was a great guest- and excellent journalism- you could teach your numpty mate sean a thing or two, this will not go down well with platforms main audience, but those off us looking for factual journalism saw you today Michael-😎 👏👌

[@Colin_Izer1111]

of

[@robertmiller2173]

Yes it is time to put it to the Vote! 1 Person 1 Vote; it is a principle worth fighting for! Good old Labour, stuffed it all up.

[@aperaruapeeta4309]

It is actually two votes one person where it is not ??

[@drinkingup2157]

Thank you Michael for giving your guest time to speak, i think Sean could learn a lot from you. An interview is not a battle.

[@Anony_mutt]

Sean's weaponised!

[@sherylwhite2201]

Very enlightening! And dismaying...... the misunderstandings, the political bias

[@billvella6048]

Here is what David Lange thought about it all. "As our increasingly dismal national day continues to show, the treaty is no basis for nationhood. It doesn’t express the fundamental rights and responsibilities of citizenship, and it doesn’t have any unifying concept. The importance it has for Maori people is a constant reminder that governments in a democracy should meet their legal and moral obligations, but for the country taken as a whole, that is, and must be, the limit of its significance. Here I come to the dangers posed by the increasing entrenchment of the treaty in statute. The treaty itself contains no principles which can usefully guide government or courts. It is a bald agreement, anchored in its time and place, and the public interest in it is the same as the public interest in enforcing any properly-made agreement. To go further than that is to acknowledge the existence of undemocratic forms of rights, entitlements, or sovereignty. The treaty is a wonderful stick for activists to beat the rest of us with, but it could never have assumed the importance it has without the complicity of others. It came to prominence in liberal thought in the seventies, when many who were concerned about the abuse of the democratic process by the government of the day began to see the treaty as a potential source of alternative authority. It’s been the basis of a self-perpetuating industry in academic and legal circles. Many on the left of politics who sympathise with Maori aspiration have identified with the cause of the treaty, either not knowing or not caring that its implications are profoundly undemocratic. read the rest here www.brucejesson.com/david-lange-2000/

[@deantairi8357]

yeah all said a 100 years after maori land was stolen,confiscated,language forbidden to be spoken

[@martinsamuels2897]

Waring over a piece of paper really? Times have changed time to move on from the treaty we should be one country on law for all, I would like to see nz as one country don't let a document divide this country

[@ali_tafa006]

Precisely. Tried doing it in the recent Australian referendum too, ridiculous how blind people can be to parliamentary documents that suggest and hint division rather than unity. Pretty ironically racists if you ask me.

[@malcolmhayward4431]

Absolutely move on it’s a dead document it did it’s job at the time this guy as educated as he is is just looking at it from a legal /technical point of view which means it will never stop the bitching lawyers love to keep anything going for as long as they can

[@sueedwards9334]

Unfortunately it already has, and has created a huge grievance industry, very profitable for those claiming grievances, and bestowing many privileges upon them which the rest of the citizens of NZ do not have.

Assign the TOW to history and the government draft a lawful legal binding “New Zealand Constitution”

[@kikimarama6652]

The FACT is the treaty was not honored, that is what created the grievances. @@sueedwards9334

[@andrewgraham1408]

Fantastic interview. I now have a better understanding.

[@ChrisBNisbet]

What a brilliant call. Thank you both, Michael and Gary.

[@darrenmaguire9171]

Very insightful. Tha k you Mr Judd for providing a good background on the historical.timelines. these are clearly glossed over in modern media reporting and political opinions.

[@rogerevans7119]

i understand that the principles clause was retrospectively added to the 1975 Act by the Treaty of Waitangi Amendment act 1987 (233) this is when the principles were inserted.

[@Gazzabondi]

It’s a shame the whole interview wasn’t published the best part was later. Gary went onto say how flawed the tribunal ruling had been at the the notion of Maori not ceding sovereignty is nonsense

[@rexahdar4199]

Is the full interview posted on KZbin or on The Platform?

[@Gazzabondi]

@@rexahdar4199 the platform

[@kikimarama6652]

The only valid version of the Treaty, the one written in Maori does not mention the word sovereignty.

[@Gazzabondi]

Listen to the whole interview. Colenso (the guys that captured all the proceedings outlined it was abundantly clear all the chiefs knew what they were saying. The only one who didn't sign, didn't, because he described that "he would be lower than the Government and they would be higher" This is written in colenso texts which is used by the Tribunal. So it was clear what ceding sovereignty meant because that's exactly what they were talking about.@@kikimarama6652

[@Anony_mutt]

@rexahdar4199 yes if you pay yer shekels...goy.

[@patharrow2560]

For the Sake of Democracy in New Zealand,it’s time to repeal the Treaty out of law &place it into the History books.

[@deantairi8357]

Of course you would say that because you have lost nothing land dignity pride language lifestyle history honour

[@FinnDelMundoTravel]

@@deantairi8357and by that you mean the dignity maori tribes had pre-colonial era when morioris were eradicated? What about the trading of trophy skulls of conquered chief heads? Nice pride and dignity mate. Least now we have a mostly civilised group of Maori people (mostly, not so sure about the radical squeeky wheels).

[@kikimarama6652]

Irrelevant. ​@@FinnDelMundoTravel

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

Without a fight? ...wake up, nobody takes land that easy. Ask the native Americans?

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

​@@FinnDelMundoTraveldon't cast your 21st century eye on a time you obviously don't understand, you can't judge things like honour and dignity unless you understand the culture at the time, besides- who created the trade in shrunken heads, or Huia birds which were then hunted to extinction being stuffed as ornaments for privileged white people in England enchanted by the Nobel Savage.

[@rata4878]

Funny how important documents in english text are now lost, yet the bible and other biblical scriptures has survived over 2700 years

[@barneyboy2008]

They weren't written in English.

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

Survived? ...or evolved? But haha- I get your point, convenient alright!

[@rata4878]

@@barneyboy2008so when they mentioned english documents disappeared they were in another language? Im confused? Did you actually watch the interview?

[@barneyboy2008]

@@rata4878 I was referring to the bible.

[@korocam9137]

After they were translated from Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, Roman, English and God knows who else.. each of them adding and taking away what they wanted??

[@jasonpoihegatama1347]

I don't know why people think the treaty is about co- governance?? odd balls

[@martyngrace3712]

Very interesting thanks

[@turi03175]

Truth will prevail 4 humanity God Bless❤amen

[@korocam9137]

Thankyou Mr Laws and Mr Judd. Over 540 Rangatira signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi, including 13 Rangatira Wahine! Just over 30 Rangatira signed the English version.

[@davethewave7248]

They signed the Maori translation of the English. they did not sign a separate 'version'.

[@woofwoof9647]

The LittleWood Treaty : Martin Doutre 🌹

[@garyc1384]

I have read the treaty myself, and it states unequivocally that Tuku the Monkey should have expensive undies - paid for by Pakeha. Rise up! Rise up for Tuku, whanau!

[@cyberfish6849]

Lol 😂

[@irenebrown3681]

Need new gossip/slander/ charge/ or whatever else.😂😢😅😊😮.

[@mareeauld5778]

You are a treasure 😂

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

Isn't he that guy who wasted 27 million trying to change the flag? ...no wait 🤔...

[@HTDSNZ]

I saw one of the principles they say is in the 1840 treaty is Maori should be given fords and holdens, whatever their preference is, evil colonizers back then refused so, therefore, they had their right to a ford or holden confiscated by them evildoers of that time, now shuffle up to the fire kids and il tell you about the evil flag pole that attacked one of our greatest warriors with his own axe, or how about the story of the burnt down church full of our people that weirdly still stood unburnt for many years after but served well as a distraction from the shame we felt from the defeat we suffered at that time...

[@planespotter4494]

The Littlewood treaty is held in the national Archives alongside the other two. It is accepted that this is the English draft that TeTiriti was translated from and as such should be part of the case to find consistency of the whole Treaty controversy.

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

If only one version is legal beagle that should be the end of it right?🤷‍♂️ Not on your Nellie- the crown has gone to these extremes to come through the back door- they will not give up now. Truth or no truth 🤷‍♂️

[@StGammon77]

Absolutely 95% of NZdrs can only understand or need the true final version which was the one translated into the native language.

[@dave24-73]

In this modern day Maori are quick to criticise how they were treated by European settlers, but you never hear about how they treated each other, baring in mind they were cannibals and they use to boil the heads of their enemy and shrink them and play games with them. On balance I’d argue they may have been headed for better times since NZ was colonised. Māori were not constantly at war, but they did live with the constant threat of war. This fact of life is literally carved into the New Zealand landscape. In the upper North Island in particular the remains of Māori pā are clearly visible on precipitous headlands and hilltops near the coast. Māori developed the art of fortification well before arrival of the pākehā and the musket .

[@eddiehauraki6272]

And your European ancestors gassed 6 million jews and caused the death of 65 million so if you want to say Maori were cannibals then talk about the millions and millions of indigenous peoples you pricks have murdered. Racists in NZ always start their argument with so the Maori were cannibals and that we benefited from colonisation. Get stuffed you racist git.

[@ManaBlack208]

Its ok to be jealous my friend but whether u like it or not we got all yall by the balls Davey boy your uncle Chris has reversed on his statements hes shaking in his boots and nothings gonna change😂the crown 👑 really balls this one up didn't 😅they had no choice and that's wat happens wen u bite off more than u can chew in war😝

[@dave24-73]

@@ManaBlack208 you’ve just advertised your stupidity, I hate Chris. Im simply putting things in perspective.

[@Colin_Izer1111]

Get yourself a copy of the book "the benefits of colonization" by Adam Plover. Essential reading for any Kiwi! Lots of first-hand accounts from Chiefs at the time, stating how much better life had become for Maori after the arrival of the white man! I adopted my YT name after reading that book. When taken on balance, colonizers as villains, is just a Marxist lie!

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

...Again- who created the trade in shrunken heads and the extinct Huia bird? Btw- did you know Christian crusaders ate people in the middle east?...

[@jamesakers4713]

So Māori were presented with an agreement written in their own language which they signed, which Judd acknowledges here was not the same as the English version, AND they didn’t sign the English version. That’s pretty clear cut. If a landlord presents me a tenancy agreement that I agree to and sign, but then they tell me that in their version of the agreement it says things that are different to the one I signed, my version stands. Not theirs.

[@davethewave7248]

You're assuming 'two versions'. What chiefs signed was the Maori translation of the English. The idea of two different versions/ meanings only develops in the 1970s due to the disputed analysis of Ruth Ross.

[@jamesakers4713]

@@davethewave7248 If you read both, they are different. The Māori one is not a direct translation of the English and I’m sorry but that is just a historical and absolute fact.

[@davethewave7248]

@@jamesakers4713 The English version that we've access to has extra language in it as compared to the Maori. The irony of this is it expands on what the chiefs have rights to [the Maori version is just treasures/ taonga]. It is said that it was written in a more literary language by an offical for consumption back in London. The final draft in English was apparently a lot simpler. This is what those that refer to the 'Littlewood document' think.

[@davethewave7248]

Of course, the difficulty of this is who is to say that this document was not just translated from the maori into English [for the American ambassador].

[@katefloss973]

The Chathams Islands were a German state through hamburg In 1839. The treaty was an agreement between Germany sending their people and their governance under English law as protestants.

[@pietdebeer7972]

Thank you for the facts.

[@user-vr2ri8bs9w]

what has happened to GODZOWN...In my whole life (and its fairly long)I have never seen the country so divided.

[@samuelbroad11]

OK, whip up a Constitution then.

[@Digmen1]

Gary is correct with one exception. Busby wrote the final draft which was approved by Hobson. That final draft has now been found on the original paper 30 years ago but it was hidden

[@martinsmallwood9605]

One thing that aways gets me. In the official history of the treaty they talk of the lawlessness of the settlers. 2500 souls centered mostly around Russel Mostly working hard to extract whale, seal and timber. No mention of the lawless inter tribal warfare that eliminated 25,000 Māori, one quarter of the population. in the preceding forty years. Māori did not sign because the settlers were lawless they sighed because their society was lawless. This is acknowledged later by Māori politicians who talk of Pax Britannica The idea that the greatest empire this world has ever seen entered into a "partnership" with a group of primitive waring tribes in the remote south pacific is ludicrous.

[@davethewave7248]

Yep, the tide was turning on the Ngai Puhi chiefs. They were beginning to lose their battles in the south. The southern tribes had armed themselves and wanted some serious utu.

[@woofwoof9647]

Celtic New Zealand History before any maori was near New Zealand 🎉 Martin Doutre 🌹 🌺

[@jamesakers4713]

You believe the Celts settled in NZ? 😂 Where else did they settle? Uranus?

[@woofwoof9647]

@@jamesakers4713 I didnt say they settled , they Visited just like the Spanish and Chinese , evidence at Baleys Beach Dargaville Ships in the Sand , many Ship Wreaks at Kiapara Bar in Kiapara Harbour 🐾🐾

[@Abuamina001]

Keep it simple - scrap the treaty (i.e. remove it from the legislative framework).

[@raniera13]

Where are all the usual racists that comment on Michaels shows? All MIA when a KC comes on and obliterates you aye Michael 🎉😂

[@ruslingmcgehan7137]

So, say we agree that the original treaty in Maori has the most signatures let's work with that. In 1840 there would have been no mention of any principles attached to the treaty. This is the nub of todays problem as these principles seem to appear and favour 100% one side which is ridiculous and should be challenged by referendum. To say that the Maori version is pure and the European version is doctored to any degree that we could also use "the principles" to non Mori advantage is ridiculous as well. These documents 200 years old have about as much credibility as the Dead Sea Scrolls to how NZ runs the country.

[@cyberfish6849]

Well said 👍

[@woofwoof9647]

British gave then 20 years 1840 ---- 1860 then a Meeting for any Grevences They Had !!! 🤔 🐾🐾

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

Under international treaty law it is only the version written in the native language that counts, and all this bs you people who want the treaty gone, are advocating to legislate the ability for people to squint there eyes, tilt their head, jump up and down- whatever it takes to perceive it as irrelevant.

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

​@@woofwoof9647 I see you read ian wishharts book too, and agree that this should have all been brought up at the kohimarama meetings, next you'll be talking about how white people are the natives because of a tree dug up in Auckland that looked like it was cut down by an axe....

[@woofwoof9647]

@@myresponsesarelimited7895 No havnt red his book 2 of Martin Doutre The LittleWood Treaty and Celtic New Zealand , if you want to know way before any of us b4 maori and English , read Crltic New Zealand The Dome Stone House's The Stone Walls and The Surveying had been done with Rock Markers Winteran Summer Solice , All Marked out Way Back !! 🌹👍🐾🐾

[@davethewave7248]

Gary's history is right on the money. Yes, the root of the political problem we fact today is the idea that there are two differing versions of the treaty. The 1975 act of Parliament mentioned [recognizing/ establishing the two treaties] I'm pretty sure comes out of the analysis of Ruth Ross [1972] that rocked the academic world with this assertion. Oh dear, we didn't get to hear what Gary was going to say in going back to 1840. lol But of course the treaty can not be reduced to legal principles because it's not about a contract between two parties within the context of established law. Rather, it's a compact that an empire made with indigenous tribes. The treaty was also shortly afterwards superceded. Where a nominal sovereignty was ceded by some chiefs to the British [the British having genereously and diplomatically recognized a nominal sovereignty in the 1835 'Confederation of Bisby's making], Britain proceeded to declare actual sovereignty over the whole of NZ shortly after the treaty signing. Seen from this practical, political and historical perspective, all the arguments over the treaty are irrelevant. NZ politics is only treaty-centric' in the mind of the radicals [and the legally minded] since the 70s. Radicalism has come to dominate the political landscape today because they have managed to convince the country that one way or the other this country is 'treaty-centric'. It's not. Of course, the treaty is still to be valued as a cornerstone in the development of this country, and specifically as where Maori gained their rights as subjects of the Crown... which the later sovereign Parliament of a now self-governing colony ratified.

[@aperaruapeeta4309]

No Aotearoa was a state and we declared that soveignty through He whakaputanga

[@YouRohb]

Lets all be clear : The treaty is between The Crown and Maori, full stop. Crown (aka non Maori) and Maori what comes out of this is our identity a nation called NewZealand, so tell me if this wrong? Do we ALL want to be part of NewZealand ? Are We all NewZealanders here? I guest this is why we need this discussion re: our democracy or the principle(s)..

[@FinnDelMundoTravel]

There are a large crowd of indoctrinated youth having it pumped into them while they’re young that New Zealand is called Aotearoa. It’s also a movement that has all the wokies captured. It’s a group of people who have built a wall of ignorance so thick and so high that they’re not able to grasp the reality that we are New Zealand and we are one people. Without that we are an apartheid nation - and we all know how well that worked out for South Africa. Scrap the treaty already and let’s create a new founding document which brings equality for all kiwis.

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

Everyone wants to be kiwi, not everyone- almost non id guess- want to sacrifice their personal culture to do it. Diversity is one of the things I count as a positive from colonialism, I like indian weddings, Chinese moon festivals, Polynesian kapa haka. Bag pipe bands at parades, Japanese drum troops...etc etc ♥️

[@YouRohb]

@myresponsesarelimited7895 No one says you need to abandon your identity or culture... but to move forward, we all need to be NewZelanders. Not non-Maori or maori but NewZelanders....You can still be European NewZelanders, Maori NewZelanders, Indian NewZelanders, Chinese New Zealanders, etc... That's why we need this discussion or principles, SO we all know where we all stand. NOT who we ask..

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

@@YouRohb fair enough. But why are we the only one's losing stuff?

[@YouRohb]

@@myresponsesarelimited7895 Past treaty claims are being addressed,settled and compensated and still ongoing....Elaborate more?

[@tama5570]

10k views! 🤙🏼

[@donpaterson4938]

did maori have a written language before the arrival of europeans

[@Clanman5769]

@Clanman5769 0 seconds ago Which is exactly why the government has every right to walk away from the treaty entirely. The fact that both sides did not have a clear understanding of what they were both signing means it does not comply with contract law today and not being a historian in English law, I suspect was still a legal requirement at the time the treaty was signed. It is therefore erropneous for both Maori and Government to believe that such an agreement exists and to be making laws and claims on Government, (subsequent actions of the two paties involved) based on the assumption that the Treaty is a legally binding agreement

[@djhemirukahemisphere8893]

None of this idea makes sense. If the treaty had no bearing until the 1970s what mandates the NZ govt at all ? What gives the British settelers and descendants any rights to declare what is relevant and what is not? ..the head of state ?

[@HTDSNZ]

The treaty in English that was used to translate into the treaty in Maori was lost but found in the 80's, that was quickly shut up tho as it matched the Maori version exactly. The Littlewood Treaty as it is known. I find it strange that they all scream from the rooftops that their interpretation is the true interpretation but they are scared of a public referendum on it, not exactly the actions of a people who have no doubt they are telling the truth, if they were in the right they would be welcoming the referendum to support their position. But, we all know that is not the case, they have got away with their fraud and have profited handsomely from their scam, and now they are worried and pissed that the scam is up. Truth does not worry about the light, only falshoods do that. Also, international law dictates that only the treaty in the native language is valid, so our parliament recognizing an English version is therefore unlawful, we can refer to the English version for direct translation as is the case with the Littlewood English draft but the Maori treaty is the lawful copy. The chiefs who signed the back of the mentioned English version only signed that as they had run out of paper, this copy was waxed together with the other paper as the shortage of paper dictated at the time and was just an older draft in English that preceded the final Littlewood draft, this was all well documented, they were not signing it as the true treaty as they knew that was in Maori, I believe the English version on display still show the wax marks from this. Iwi have been allowed to get away with this due to the kindness of the majority in this country, what they don't realize is they have overstepped now and exposed themselves as the true threat that they are and the game is up. Not a threat as in they can get their own way with might, as they are no threat there apart from the potential of particular acts of violence but rather the corruption of the system, ruining what we once knew as the shining light of race relations to the world. It was done the right way here in NZ, both sides knew that before the 70's, they have robbed both Maori and all other kiwis of that pride and respect we once demanded as a great nation.

[@rod-contracts1616]

They've used the pakeha legal system including the courts beautifully.

[@Anony_mutt]

We paid for Eddie Durie and his troffers!! 🤷‍♂️

[@DaHandDatFeeds]

Crickey - how long did you spend writing and editing all of that nonsense? lol. I think someone who doesn't know how to use paragraphs does not have the reading and writing comprehension level to weigh in on translations of English much less Maori.

[@Anony_mutt]

@@DaHandDatFeeds Crikey-don't feed da Stingray! 💥

[@HTDSNZ]

To attack the person rather than the facts stated is only an indication of your lack of ability to comment with anything meaningful. I can read well enough to know what the original meaning of the treaty was, as recorded by the people of the day. So, in that regard, it would seem my abilities exceed those of people who do not, at the least. @@DaHandDatFeeds

[@kingfillins4117]

Seems odd that the English version, which is what the Maori version is meant to mean, is not the actual meaning of the treaty used. It’s basically the same as the Maori version anyway. Article one of the Maori version clearly states the crown has complete government over their lands. Just like the government governs over everyone’s land today. Chiefs looking after their iwi is practical. That’s not the same as opposing or acting as the crown government.

[@davecampbell5176]

He really didn't tell us anything of substance. Interrupted constantly.

[@Matika_awatea]

Never cede sovereignty ☝🏽

[@natesdagr8]

Maori will have full and final say on any changes to Tiriti not minor political party Act sponsored by Hobsons pledge

[@StGammon77]

Maori do not Govern the Treaty states it

[@consumerofhumanity9557]

@@StGammon77it’s exactly what Te Tiriti states. Have you read it?

[@Twofiddymill]

What is wrong with people?? We are now afraid to even talk about issues regardless of their historical importance. I have no problem talking,acting on and am ending or even rewriting the Treaty….if it suits the climate of modern NZ. It’s simple. It’s just a document …an account of intent and what happened. It’s also flawed…it’s foolish to think that peoples psychological thinking 185 years ago will be the same today….foolish! Alter it,change it,keep it,amend it,talk about it…so that humans can flourish and evolve today. I know that won’t happen, that’s why I ignore all documents and just plan my life and get on with it…no treaty needed….oh by the way..I am Māori…and Scottish and German Jew…just like all other Māori kiwis. There are no Māori…just a big melting pot of many nations……

[@Matika_awatea]

Haha yes all discussions between English men ? They may have spoke some Māori but full understanding is clearly not there

[@StGammon77]

Clearly is

[@Matika_awatea]

@@StGammon77 Cleary not

[@adsdft585]

P Moon NZ author on this platform has show NZ was a state in 1840.

[@Digmen1]

You mean the maoris were in a parlous state in 1840

[@adsdft585]

Once again the host has not done research on this topic.

[@campbellmorrison8540]

So you are saying the treaty as signed had no legal basis until 1975? Come on you cant tell me the crown came up with a treaty, got it signed and they had no interest in it being a legal document. If that were the case you cant then say that by signing said treaty Maori ceded sovereignty to the crown.

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

The pakeha version was the original principles declaration, but any treatise in any nation- it is only the indigenous version that carries any legal standing.

[@Gazzabondi]

You need to listen to the rest of the interview unfortunately this one is cut short - Gary outlines that ceding sovereignty is nonsense

[@myresponsesarelimited7895]

That's why they've had to address the un about it.

[@campbellmorrison8540]

Ok thanks.@@Gazzabondi

[@campbellmorrison8540]

Exactly, all sounds like rubbish to me, problem is people do still listen and believe this@@myresponsesarelimited7895

[@laurence7426]

An there you have it Gary is another wat I think an no idea at all really

[@MyNic28]

????

[@gerardo259]

Saying what, wat you say, what wat try again.

[@laurence7426]

Exactly wat I said he is only guessing like all have 4 many Years

[@stevenbrown8157]

How convenient it has been lost , but not the Maori one hey😂

[@jamesakers4713]

That one wasn’t presented to Māori, or signed by them so it’s irrelevant.

[@Anony_mutt]

Some far car stole it!💨

[@donpaterson4938]

can i ask if we can find at least 1 true full blooded maori in new zealand of their opinion that would be grateful if not then find a maori without european blood lines that can speak for a pacific maori that has no influence of money grabbing entitled maori in modern history

[@adsdft585]

So if take S Jones comments on this platform and D Symours comment in to account they do not agree full with this guy. He also speaks with non vote catching vocabulary.

[@dgm2593]

The Peace Treaty (The Peace Treaty Of Waitangi) was initiated by the British Crown simply because the British Military couldn't genocide, conquest or conquer the Northern Maori of the 18th century. Ngapuhi was a force to be reckoned with. They butchered the British Military, amputated there bodies and cooked them in a hangi. Those cheifs who did die and spilled blood in battle defending there land culture and family died an honourable death. They paid with there lives and paid in full with there blood. So dont ever think those warrior chiefs bowed down or surrendered sovereignty, sold there souls to a foreign king or queen in England. Dont ever think or believe those warrior chiefs defended and died for there land culture and family to bow down or surrendered sovereign to a foreign king. Dont ever think those warrior chiefs who paid with there blood cede sovereignty to a foreign entity. Those warrior chiefs ate and killed there enemies. Dont ever think or believe those warrior chiefs bowed down to a foreign entity. Those Chiefs welcomed a partnership to work together with British Crown to share power and resources and new technology. Pakeha to govern there own people and Maori to govern there own people. That never happened. The British government took power, wealth and government control by 100%. Hone Heke cut the British flag pole down to symbolize that the treaty was a fraudulent contract being misinterpreted. To those who think Ngapuhi cede sovereignty to the British Crown and military better get a reality check. When you kill butcher and eat your enemy, dont ever think thats an act of ceding sovereignty, to bow down or surrender, to be fearful or be afraid. Dont ever think those warrior chiefs sold there souls to a foreign king and queen. NEVER!!!!! ake ake Amen. They died honourable to defend there land culture and family.

[@davethewave7248]

lol. Nga Puhi chiefs killed and butchered the tribes south of them once they got muskets. Whole populations were slaughtered. They began losing battles on their raids south [they could never quite quench the blood lust], and realised that the southern tribes were also arming themselves with muskets. They started fearing the utu that would come. They were quick to sign that treaty that established law and order in NZ and abolished the musket wars once and for all.

[@natesdagr8]

Maori will have full and final say on any changes to Tiriti

[@peter-yy5qy]

Oh yeah, or what?

[@natesdagr8]

Meddle with Tiriti without Maori consent will see this govt cut off at the knees@@peter-yy5qy