Could Sauron use the Balrog of Moria? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth

[@drarsen33]

This Balrog was kind of passive in his actions. He secured the Moria and kept to himself for a loooong time. He never revealed himself. He never raided Lothlorien which was under his nose. When dwarfs attacked the Moria he watched but didnt interfere. He didnt even command the orc army, he just waited to see if dwarfs will try to reclaim the mine. When dwarfs had created a colony in Moria, he didnt attack nor reveal himself. For thousands of years he was content with keeping low profile. Maybe he was sort of traumatized by stomping that Valar delivered unto the dark armies. Maybe he was passive without Morgoth to direct him. He acted only once fellowship of the ring came to him. He might have sensed a power of the ring...or Gandalf? Servant of Valar in his home? Is he there for him? Will he inform the Valar that one of the Balrog was located? Anyhow, I dont think that Sauron controlled him. He would probably be able to persuade him and coerce him into compliance but not to command him.

[@ravenlord4256]

I think that sauron can't control the Ballrog. He probably know him from some orcs or his eye see him, but I think without the ring he has no physical firm so he can't go to Moria and recute the Ballrog. I also think that he shall do that on his own because if you were a high demon would you accept instructions of a orc, which was maybe send by the dark lord. I don't think so.

[@SuperNils666]

I'm pretty sure he was slumbering rather than observin what was going on until he was awoken, also I thought he got trapped under there after Eru did the whole reformation of arda?

[@drarsen33]

@@SuperNils666 I am not sure what you are referring to. It is said by one of the dwarfs that after victory over orcs at the gates of Moria victorious army refrained from entering the mines because they could tell that something was lurking in the darkness just beyond the gates waiting for them.

[@remlok5556]

@@drarsen33 Yeah Dain the dwarf actually saw the Balrog within the threshold of Moria and convinced the rest of the dwarf army that Durin's Bane was still present and they couldn't defeat it. That's why they didn't retake it during the War of Dwarves and Orcs.

[@mikedeck8381]

@@ravenlord4256 Sauron did have a wraith/spirit form, the Balrog likely would've been able to see it and communicate with it. Sauron could've easily sent a Nazgul to Moria as well. In the books Sauron did have a physical form by the end of the Third Age.

[@maximmichailov5081]

"Moria... You fear to go into those mines. The dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum... Shadow and flame." I always get chills when Saruman says that line.

[@gamerdude7481]

Its those exact lines that make me believe Sauron had to know about it. If Saruman knew then he would have notified Sauron if Sauron didn't already know

[@gamerdude7481]

@@Kellenmcconnell1417 well I don't have a credible source cause I can't remember where I heard it but I heard Balrogs were loyal to Morgoth and Morgoth alone as he was their creator so if that's true then Sauron could either kill it or leave it be and it seems he chose to leave it be

[@chadwhitfield6946]

@@gamerdude7481 morgoth didn't create them though he may have been the reason they were twisted into the demons they became.

[@zaleost]

I don't believe that line is in the book though, it was only in the film. Based on the books (or at least what I felt after reading it) most people seem to be aware that something powerful had awoken in Moria and drove out the Dwarfs but no one was really sure exactly what it was. It was only when the fellowship directly encountered it when they passed through Moria that Gandalf recognised it as a Balrog. But it is implied that the Orc's living there were connected to Sauron as their ranks apparently included several "Black Uruk's of Mordor" which had only appeared recently and where known to only serve him directly, so the theory that he knew of the Balrog via the Orcs living in Moria does hold up.

[@mitchita5559]

What a coincidence, I had just this phrase in my thoughts as well. Memories from my childhood, things I don't forget because of the beautiful, mystical sound of the words. But also it leads me to believe that the Balrog was not there on purpose .. it was a horror discovered in the depths .. a horrible coincidence .. I always imagined as a child .. the labour of the stone in so horribly scary depths .. flat stone is in front of them, as the dwarfs are so far down: they stand in front of cliffs and they are at the deepest point. They have tools, they work the stone, everybody else would be scared to death, but they are careless, everybody else is scared of just watching where they are. The fear has always been there, the darkness has always been scary and anybody but the dwarfs would look over their shoulder , scared of noises, of who might be there. And then the wall crumbles, and it becomes real: The Balrog.

[@jeffantonson2304]

Sauron might have been Morgoth's chief lieutenant in the First Age, but by the Third Age he had been diminished by the Downfall of Numenor, his defeat at the Black Gates, and the loss of the one ring. He may not have been confident in his ability to compel a strong entity like a Balrog or Fire Drake to serve him.

[@garammaru3272]

But still, Sauron is still more powerful than Durin's Bane. Back in Battle of Dagorlad, Sauron fought thousands of troops consisting of Elves, Dunedains, and Dwarves. Most notable feat is that he defeated Gil Galard and Elendil. These two are very powerful warriors who can fight equally with Maiars. It's like he defeated at least 3~4 Balrogs by himself. But still, Durin's Bane is still not a foe Sauron can underestimate. But since, they once served same master and Sauron was higher, I'd say there is a chance Balrog of Moria might join forces with Sauron. Maybe if Smaug was alive, Sauron could've used him as mercenary too. Smaug loves treasures and Sauron, while he likes to rule, he doesn't show a lot of interest of it, so he could've make Smaug work for him by taking all to treasures from kingdoms of men that he will attack in return, Smaug fights for him.

[@johngeiger3770]

Sauron's true strength lies in his cunning intellect and his creative prowess. Before he was corrupted by Melkor, Sauron (aka Mairon) was known for his love for order and his obsession with creation, only matched by his former master Aulë. When he was serving Morgoth, he became his greatest servant not because of his brute strength or combat skills but because of his excellent strategy and creative plans which consolidated Morgoth's dominance. Balrogs on the other hand were Maiars corrupted long before Sauron. In fact, Balrogs went with Morgoth as early as the music of Ainur. This ensured a greater loyalty and bond with their master.This became evident when Balrogs rescued their master from Ungoliant. Balrogs also had their own chief, Gothmog. However, powerful Sauron was during the first age, Balrog acted only by the order of Morgoth and for Morgoth and no one else. There's no way Sauron could command Balrogs without the mediator, Morgoth, and wisely enough Sauron never did.

[@brucewayne2558]

Sauron was was definitely more powerful than a Balrog. Maybe not without his ring though.

[@stormwhoz2012]

@@garammaru3272he planned on using Smaug. Because Gandalf knew Sauron was gaining power he didn’t want him to partner with Smaug and used dwarves and Bilbo as a means to prevent that

[@michaeltsi5746]

Ever since I first watched the film as a kid I always wondered that if balrog and sauron were allies.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Hopefully this anwers your question ;)

[@szabok1999]

@@chapxe132 Because that is the case, it had been sleeping there for thousands of years. But before that it fought in great battles.

[@stefanorsan7518]

It was hiding after the war of wrath.. I think as a lieutenant of morgoth he could have commanded the Balrog. Since his servents knew it was hiding in moria, he would have brought him out near the end of the war. But Gandalf ended that plan (Gandalf did well to take pieces off the board, Balrog, smaug and saruman)

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

@@stefanorsan7518 i know Gandalf was concerned. But i dont think Smaug would have joined Sauron, he was too proud. Sauron would send Ringwraith emisaries. Smaug would say no and retort that Sauron can have his world but he himself would own the mountain. Sauron could have dragged him out in defeat but it wouldnt be worth the effort and theyd likely settle into a similar situation lake that of Sauron and Shelob.

[@_semih_]

@@jonathonfrazier6622 agreed

[@trisutrisno6138]

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power." - Gandalf

[@nicolassilva1729]

Who is it?

[@rojhatcaglayan7402]

@@nicolassilva1729 Sauron, he meant that ni one else can controll the one ring tho it's made from Sauron

[@trisutrisno6138]

@@nicolassilva1729 Sauron. Its from the scene when Gandalf the grey fled from Orthanc Tower NB: then Saruman said "So you have chosen death"

[@brucewayne2558]

@@nicolassilva1729 Nancy Pelosi

[@Chelooby]

The theory about Sauron knowing about the Balrog, but both of them allowing the other to exist independently, is great as well. In my head I imagine Sauron and the Balrog talking and agreeing to continue the works of Morgoth independent of each other, yet still working towards the same goal. Love hearing people talk about Tolkien

[@GeekZoneMT]

Oh yeah that's certianly possible, and it would still have been a great asset to Sauron, albeit an independent one :)

[@bb1111116]

Prestige Worldwidewidewide; this is also my view that Sauron wanted the Balrog to stay put as an independent being. - The Balrog was the anchor for the center of Sauron’s western line/boundary. The Dwarves could not establish their great kingdom in Moria. And Elrond or Galadriel could not move large forces far to the east with the Balrog at their back. - And if any powerful being was foolish enough to go into Moria, the Balrog would kill them. After all, Gandalf was killed by the Balrog (which also died but the death of Gandalf would be worth it to Sauron). - Also, keeping the Balrog in Moria, without consulting with it, meant it would not challenge the authority of Sauron. - The only weakness of Sauron’s plan for the Balrog was that he gambled that the Valar would not intervene in the struggle for Middle-earth (such as the Valar resurrecting/creating a more powerful version of Gandalf, called the White.) Morgoth made a similar losing gamble when he was on the threshold of conquering Middle-earth during the First Age.

[@skywarp2414]

Im guessing Sauron was more interested in conquering the surface world, leaving the underworld to the Balrog and other deep dwelling orcs. That way Sauron didnt need to be concerned with Dwarves meddling his plans.

[@bb1111116]

Skywarp; agreed

[@haroldcruz8550]

Sauron would have mostly knew about the Balrog since even Saruman was aware of it.

[@adamloverin231]

Having the Balrog operate independently in Moria was consistent with his overall strategy. He did the same with Smaug and Shelob. Rather than try to micromanage the whole of Middle Earth, he was content to have powerful forces of evil deny important sections of it to his enemies while he focused (mainly) on Gondor.

[@instrumentalist28]

I always just assumed, being on the same side in the beginning, they'd still be

[@shaolin1derpalm]

Shelob was ungoluants daughter. She would have no real reason to follow sauron, since ungoliant acted independently.

[@adamloverin231]

@@shaolin1derpalm excellent point.

[@mikebattista1523]

I think the Balrog would have tried to get control of the ring for itself as it could have been just as powerful as Sauron was. And being that the Balrogs may have owned their allegiance with Morgoth it might have seen Sauron as just a usurper.

[@GeekZoneMT]

hmm Sauron never really tried to usurp Morgoth though, and he was technically still working in his name albeit with a slightly different end goal. It's cool to wonder whether the Balrog would have used the One Ring, and how powerful it might have become!

[@mikebattista1523]

@@GeekZoneMT Yes but being that Sauron and the Balrog are both evil, both worked for Morgoth, its natural that they might come to conflict trying to be the one that tries to bring Morgoth back from the Abyss. The Balrog may see that IT is the only one worthy to be the one to do that. Evil always turns on itself in time.

[@Omni1Illu]

Plausible, but I don't think so. First, I dont think the balrog would have even had knowledge of the ring as he has been hiding underground, presumably since the end of the War of Wrath. And I think Sauron would have been too cunning to mention it or let it fall into the balrog's possession. I think the only balrog that could have rivaled Sauron's power with the ring would be Gothmog, and he was killed by Ecthelion, an elf, in the battle of Gondolin. The ones who could have rivaled Sauron in power that were still alive are Gandalf and Saruman. Would be cool to see a ring empowered balrog whoop on Sauron and the free peoples though.

[@mikebattista1523]

@@Omni1Illu I would think that the Balrog might have sensed the Ring in the fellowships possession and might be why it pursued them. A powerful being like the Balrog would have had extremely fine senses to sense something as powerful and evil as The Ring. But that's just my opinion and we may never truly know.

[@_semih_]

@@mikebattista1523 You missing a point. The Ring bows only to SAURON! Because the Ring is Sauron's spirit!

[@Chelooby]

The comparison to Shelob is perfect, semi-independent forces who answer to no one

[@lucaslorenz8812]

Shelob was probably much more powerful, and on a higher level of you will, than any of the balrogs. The nature of Shelob is not as clear as that of the balrogs, though.

[@jayt9608]

@@lucaslorenz8812, the nature of Shelob is that of her mother, Ungoilant, though lesser in degree. I believe that Sauron cooperated with her for much the same reason that Morgoth cooperated with her mother, both were too powerful to be unused in greater tasks, but unlike Morgoth, Sauron struck a better bargain in not promising her more than he wanted to give. They were both shadows of greater beings.

[@tonyennis1787]

I never got the idea that Shelob was much more than a giant spider, maybe intelligent, maybe not so much.

[@HMan2828]

Not really, Shelob was the spawn of Ungoliant, and Ungoliant was truly independant, and only assisted Morgoth to sate her own hunger. When Morgoth had outlived his usefulness, Ungoliant even tried to consume him. In that sense, Ungoliant and Shelob are more like Eldritch horrors. They don't belong in this world, and neither Eru Illuvatar nor Morgoth created them. They have allegiances to no one. The Balrog however are the twisted spirits of the original Valar that rebelled against Eru and sang Morgoth's song instead at the moment of creation. They would be eternally loyal to Morgoth, and Morgoth alone. Sauron was Morgoth's second in command, but he was still just a Maiar, NOT a Valar. As such I don't think the Balrog would have ever followed a Maiar, unless Morgoth himself ordered them to. Sauron was inferior in power to the Balrog. Also, no, Shelob was not more powerful than the Balrog (which are literally fallen archangels), but Ungoliant might have been at one time, after consuming the light of the trees. At that point she was probably close to equal in power to Morgoth himself. Which is why Morgoth refused to let her consume the Silmarils. She would have become more powerful than any other being in Middle Earth, and would probably have consumed the entire world after that.

[@davidkosiba624]

@@lucaslorenz8812 What? Lol Shelob was just a big spider and that's it , she literally almost got killed by a hobbit ...Ungoliant her mother was below any Vala before she got boosted up , she might have been on a Maiar level therefore since her child was much less mighty Shelob has to be way below any Maiar aka any Balrog

[@danewilliams4041]

An alliance between Sauron and Balrogs would absolutely be terrifying.

[@GeekZoneMT]

It would have been quite a horrible experience for the Elves especially, to see that one of their ancient enemies had survived!

[@jakealter5504]

The only way it would be worse is if Smaug was also in the alliance

[@MrKrumpetz]

@Славянская Сила Exactly, and what is so crazy...Gandalf really thought he was one of the weakest of his kin...while his greater kindred were not only the other wizards, but the Balrogs and Sauron himself. Turned out he was perhaps the greatest or among the greatest of his kind. It is actually a very inspiring story to see his rise from less spirit to being one of the spearheads to reclaim middle earth from evil.

[@whynottalklikeapirat]

But imagine the amount of marshmallows they could roast ...

[@David-li4uw]

Just imagine how terrible the Noldor of the first age had it! They had to deal with Sauron, Gothmog and ALL the Balrogs, and all the dragons some of which made Smaug look like an earthworm. Oh yeah, and the most powerful being other than Eru himself, Melkor/Morgoth.

[@honkytonkinson9787]

I feel like Sauron was depending on the world of men to stay divided. If he had used big scary monsters like balrog and Smaug, men would agree they needed to unite. I think he used evil men and orks hoping that each kingdom wouldn't feel quite as threatened, instead choosing to shelter in place, as we saw, until the end of the story. Aragorn and Gandolf had a difficult time convincing the various kingdoms of men and elves to unite, even having to rely upon ghosts for help. Even then a direct assault would have failed. Success was always dependent upon Frodo and Sam succeeding in their mission to destroy the ring

[@AC_Bikes_400]

Good points.

[@whitealliance9540]

@@AC_Bikes_400 this world is assimilating new darkness. New energy. If you want to see the dark prophet of our time: go to him. Love him. His channel name is "share his vision". Go listen to his wisdom. Sub to him. He teaches and displays many glorious and terrifying powers. And his forehead and feet are blessed with the blood of baby jesus. Go to him. His writing will destroy heaven forever. Amen kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGjVm3h7oJykb68

[@TierTalis]

Your very smart sir

[@gabriellang7998]

I'd rather think that using balrog openly would trigger the response of even mightier powers. The reason why Sauron had such a free rein in middle earth was because he was a weakened version of what he once was. Seems like all higher powers were very confident that he was not a serious threat that forces present in the area could not handle - see the final battle at Black Gate, where he moved all he could to have superior numbers. Neither balrog of Moria or Smaug had anything to gain from aligning with a waning power, but if they did, this could trigger an overwhelming response that would crush them. I think Sauron was a lost cause and balrog knew it. Only when Gandalf and the ring of powered were in the zone he got triggered by this opportunity - think about it, a balrog could actually use the ring of power! :) And kicking Olórin's ass in the process of obtaining it would be such a good feeling :)

[@122Gladeator]

Valid points. I would just like to add that Tolkien wrote Sam was the most important character cause he held the ring twice and never was taken by it's power when everyone prior was taken by it power in some way or another. Sam would of destroyed the Ring no problem Gandalf knew that's when they all met up when Gandalf met and they told him Frodo was with Sam that great big grin he gets oh man love that part.

[@robwatson2614]

Loving all the different Tolkien channels working together and shouting each other out lately, men of the West gave you a shout the other day

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah we're lucky to have such a great community! Yoystan is a really terrific guy!! :)

[@MaurienDenEngelsman]

Maybe this is also a great 'with if' story for him to do :)

@@GeekZoneMT all of us LOTR fans are subscribed to all of you guys anyways. ^^

[@JonP1245]

If only the Star Wars community did that a bit more shame it’s so toxic nowadays 😔

[@TheBooklyBreakdown]

@@JonP1245 thanks to Disney

[@GeekZoneMT]

Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I'll be uploading an extra video tomorrow regarding some updates for this channel! :) As always, subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!

[@kevinobill4818]

Can the Balrogs back into normal Maiar? I mean both Balrogs and Wizards are the same spirits.

[@brettdowns277]

I have a question? Where was the mouth of sauron when he was the necromancer of dol guldur ?

[@GeekZoneMT]

@@brettdowns277 Hmm that's a good question! I imagine that he was helping the Nazgul prepare for Sauron's return to Mordor! :)

[@GeekZoneMT]

@@kevinobill4818 They were still Maiar spirits, though I don't think they'd be able to return to their 'pure' form. I imagine it would be similar to how Sauron lost his 'fair' form after the fall of Numenor

[@brettdowns277]

@@GeekZoneMT i didnt think of that cheers mate

[@Chelooby]

I like your first theory, and what you said about the Balrog’s intelligence. I feel as thought the ego or pride of a Balrog could keep it from serving Sauron, as they could see themselves as equals or even greater than him.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Hmm, what if they saw their service to Sauron as a means of of fulfilling Morgoth's will, rather than the end goal itself? :)

[@Chelooby]

@@GeekZoneMT I can definitely see that occurring as well! I love thinking about the war of the ring from all perspectives like this, and I hope the amazon prime show can flesh out Sauron or give us more scenes with him. There’s certainly a lot of stuff they can pull from! Cheers brotha

[@_semih_]

@@Chelooby The Balrog was not equal to Sauron! Sauron is the strongest Maiar. Sauron is one of the higher rank Maiar and the Balrog is lower rank (like Gandalf and other Istaris). Balrog and Sauron knows each other from the Morgoths era. Its possible for Sauron to being the commander of the Balrogs after death of Gothmog. Cause Sauron was Morgoths mightiest and deadliest servant and second in command after Morgoths himself. In my opinion, The Balrog would serve and help Sauron

[@KsieciuZla]

@@_semih_ it is a vaild theory however not 100% convincing as we actually know very little about Forces of Darkness in terms of power structure. 1. We know nothnig about logic behind chain of command- it was never stated if Sauron's position of captain of Morgoth came from his personal authority or it was just extension of Morgoth's. In other words we dont know if during 1st age fallen Maiars followed Sauron's orders only because Morgoth told them to do so. 2. There is no record of any law of succesion on Dark Lord's position. We do not know if after Morgoth's fall his authority over all evil simply passed to Sauron as his 2nd in command or Sauron was just self-proclaimed evil overlord. Without asnwer to those question we can only assume and make theories. But I rather tend to a "no" as there are no records of relic powerful evil spirits flocking under Mordor banner in 2nd and 3rd Age. Even in case of Smaug fans makes theories of alliance between dragon and Sauron and you do not make alliances with servants.

[@glorgau]

Way back in the depths of time they probably had some history together and knew each other. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't like each other.

[@Chelooby]

I love how you can take a single character/item in Tolkien’s works, and there’s either a deep history of that, or a certain mystique in the unknown origin.

[@GeekZoneMT]

We've gotta give credit to Tolkien for creating such an immersive living world with so many overlapping themes and histories!!

[@Chelooby]

@@GeekZoneMT couldn’t say it better myself. He lived through so much in the real world and then crafted one with beauty and terror that somehow or someway (to me), mirrors our own. Tolkien’s works are my favorite stories without a doubt, and I love that other people share that feeling!

[@szabok1999]

What I always wondered about was that did the Balrog sense the ring on Frodo? He probably doesn't know of it's existence, but it does attract evil.

[@GeekZoneMT]

hmm I think it would have sensed its presence, just like how the Watcher in the Water seemed to intentionally target Frodo

[@jackbauer4186]

I don't think the Balrog cared about the ring. He had no use for it. He was simply a relic of an ancient time, bigger than anything in the second or third age. After all, all he really cared about was serving Morgoth and battling his enemies. Once he was gone, the Balrog had no true purpose any longer other than hiding from greater forces in Moria.

[@alexandersilady4751]

I kind of assumed Durin's Bane swore allegiance to Sauron, but hey, maybe he had no idea what was going on in the surface world at all.

[@GeekZoneMT]

hmmm that's quite an interesting thought! It's kinda hard to figure out how up to date the Balrog was 😅. I suppose it depends on whether it was open to communicating with the Orcs or not! :)

[@mikebattista1523]

If The Nameless ones were unknown to Sauron i think the Balrog was totally hidden from Sauron, he had no idea it was there and maybe even thought that they had all been destroyed long ago.

[@stevenleslie8557]

@@mikebattista1523 wouldn't his ally Saruman made him aware of his existence?

[@asherpikesgoldenmoralcinem5770]

@@stevenleslie8557 saruman kept many secrets from Sauron

[@stevenleslie8557]

@@asherpikesgoldenmoralcinem5770 good point. In the end Saruman was also seeking power and if revealing the Balrog would interfere with that, he would have kept it to himself. Good comment!

[@chrischan5168]

Maybe he would have used him eventually, but as it stood at the time Smaug, Durins Bane and Shelob were very useful to Sauron left exactly where they were. If I’ve learned anything, it’s that Sauron knew how to play the long game.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah, agreed! :)

[@stefanorsan7518]

I could see that.. Shelob protected the pass into mordor, durins bane stopped his enemies from reclaiming moria and having a quick way through the mountains and smaug kept the north from mounting and adequate united defense... pieces that were best left where they were

[@Jim-Tuner]

And the Balrog was positioned in a place where he could go after either Rivendell or Lorien fairly quickly. The two places where there were tough high-born elves present and two of the three elf rings of power. If it came to a direct fight with Glorfindel or Galadrial, the Balrog is just about the only weapon powerful enough to use (other than Sauron fighting in person).

[@chrischan5168]

@James Gravil all he really needed to do was to brick up the entrance to mount doom. Rookie error.

[@Jim-Tuner]

@James Gravil There were outposts and patrols on Mount Doom. As well throughout the valley floor in Mordor. Sauron called up every single orc he had in mordor for the final battle with Aragorn pulling all his internal security. He initially panicked when Aragon challenged him through the Palantir which led him to prematurely launch his attack on the city. Then he panicked even worse after the defeat & his invincible general was killed. Worst of all, he knew there were powerful intruders who had wounded Shelob, defeated the watchers and broken into morder. But didn't seem to care. His short-term failure was getting obsessed with one chesspiece and neglecting the entire board.

[@MrCharrrles]

I think ultimately the balrog would not listen to Sauron. The balrogs only answer to Morgoth and they wait for his return.

[@forgalzz7]

Like with Smaug, Sauron could probably get him to do what he wanted, but would choose a more circumspect approach than simply giving orders as with orcs and trolls.

[@stuartmclean1521]

Sauron was 2nd only to morgoth, so the dragons, balrogs ect.. They all knew who he was. If sauron had made direct contact with smuag or a balrog, then I think they would have reached an agreement, somthing like well we could take middle earth together for morgoths return. If it was a dragon like smuag, sauron could simply offer it all the dwarven kingdoms. If it was a balrog, an eleven ring once they were recovered plus anywhere it choose as its realm. But what the video says is mostly correct although the balrogs were more than capable of wiping out entire armies the elves feared them greatly, they are maiar as is stated. A maiar has the power to obliterate entire swathes of land. I think the only beings capable of destroying the balrog during the war of the ring in the third age were gandalf, galadriel using her ring, sauruman and Tom bombadil. Elrond perhaps but I have my doubts to that I think at the very most he would die aswell. But one thing that needs to be considered is not all balrogs are the same power. They are all maiar yes but each maiar spirit has its own "powers" so the one gandalf fought could have perhaps only been like middle teir strength wise.

[@theunknownanomaly1950]

@@stuartmclean1521 Don't forget about Glorfindel. He could definitely take down the balrog

[@stuartmclean1521]

@@theunknownanomaly1950 ahhh yes glorfindel could take a balrog, can't believe I missed him haha. (As it is implied that glorfindel in the Lord of the rings is the same glorfindel from the silmarillion, so he already has killed one at the sacking of Gondolin, although again he died in the process.) i realised not long ago that literally every balrog we hear of fighting one on one has resulted in a double death.

[@nowanimportant8887]

@@stuartmclean1521 Yeah, and Glorfindel was weaker before when he killed the Balrog at Gondolin. After he was revived and granted a power boost, he was strong enough that even the maiar counted him as an equal(unsure if he was as strong as the strongest maiar or not, but it is confirmed he was now maiar-level) and was even capable of putting fear into the Nazgul just by being there.

[@samuelbattershell3413]

I don't think Mairon could have controlled Durin's Bane, but command him as Mairon was Melkor's second in command, but the two are still Maia and in a way equals. I think that keeping Durin's Bane in Khazad-dum was mostly because Durin's Bane would have been a one time use in battle, and Mairon would have wanted him held in reserve for the final sacking of Rivendell, the last stronghold of the Elves, in the mean time, being posted to Khazad-dum, kept the dwarves from being a serious threat and controlled one of the few ways across the Misty Mountains.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Oh, it seems like we're in agreement for the most part! :D

[@windhelmguard5295]

there is also the part where sauron would have been deeply concerned about the safety of the one ring. it's true that sauron wants the ring to be found, but when that happens, whoever claims it, may reveal its position eventually through repeated use of its power. what sauron doesn't want is someone who is already rivalling sauron in power to claim it, this is why sauron really didn't like the idea of saruman finding it first and that might be why he would have preferred to not have the balrog stomping around middle earth on the off chance that he stumbles across the one, claims it and bends it to his will.

[@draoidh6479]

@@windhelmguard5295 you sir are smart.

[@AMisfit]

The question is, could Durin's Bane being a Maiar like Sauron posses the ability to wield the one ring, effectively adding Sauron's dark power to his own... 🤔

[@GeekZoneMT]

I imagine it could, though it would still be less powerful than Sauron at his peak! :)

[@keithfta789]

Id guess the balrog would be even more powerful than peak Sauron, as Sauron put so much of his power in the ring that once it was destroyed he was essentially powerless. Id assume that a Balrog would be able to access enough of Sauron’s power that, since w/o it a Balrog is still immensely powerful, that added to Sauron’s stolen power it would be even worse.

[@keithfta789]

Night's King well the evidence is that w/o the ring (existing) he’s essentially powerless , so if a balrog essentially assumed sauron’s expended power I’d argue that another miar would be able to incorporate enough of sauron’s inate power that it’d be superior. Even if the power conversion wasnt 100% it’d likely be enough to surpass Sauron.

[@keithfta789]

Night's King Agreed. Not considering the ring, Sauron as a higher level Maiar out-ranked the Balrogs significantly.

[@bobhyde7361]

It’s possible that the balrog’s fingers may have been way too thick to be able to wear the one ring - thus unable to assume additional power that the ring possessed.

[@aashirazeem5465]

This question was making me crazy!!!!!

[@GeekZoneMT]

You're finally free from it!! 😂

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

Comparing the Balrog's role with Shelob's wraps up the video quite nicely. I always thought that Sauron was secretly delighted with the Balrog guarding Moria for him. And for free, too!

[@mailchibi88]

I question whether Sauron is fully aware of the Balrog's existence. In the books the Balrog's existence is steeped in mystery. Even Gandalf seems surprised by its pressence at the Bridge of Khazard Dum, having been unable to previously recognize the mysterious force who countered his spell upon the doors of the Chamber of Mazarbul. Indeed, even before its discovery, the mair lurked in the deepest tunnels of the Misty Mountains, home to 'Nameless Things' of which Sauron is unaware of. The Dwarves who survived Khazad Dum's downfall are seemingly unaware of its true nature, referring to it as 'Durin's Bane'. While the Dwarves have seen battle against Dragons in the First Age, there is little evidence in the Simarilian to suggest that the Dwarves, or at least those in Khazad Dum, would have had any encounters with these foes'. Regardless, given the secretive nature of the Dwarves, it is doubtful that Sauron agents would have learned about the Balrog's existence from Durin's Folk. Then there are the orcs and goblins of the Misty Mountains. From my understanding these tribes mostly consist of survivors from Angband who are only loosely affiliated with Mordor. While these tribes are certainly aware of the Balrog's existence, knowing enough to fear its pressence, would they be aware of its true power? The orcs would not have fought alongside balrogs for Thousand of Years and, given what we have seen in the book, do not seem like the type to keep written records of these events. If Sauron's agents did have sufficient contact with the Orcs of Moria, would they have been able to convey the Balrog's existence, or would they just describe a nameless terror stalking through the shadows? Now assuming Sauron was able to piece together the mystery of Durin's Bane, it is doubtful that he would be able to control the Balrog, at least not without the One Ring in his possession. Both are creatures of the same order, Maiar, with Balrogs being referred to as 'Demon's of Might'. In the Simarilian they are Morgoth's chief servants, capable of driving back the likes of Ungoliant with their fury. If made aware of its existence, Sauron would likely see the Balrog as a dangerous wild card in his campaign to control Middle Earth or pehaps even a potential rival. Unlike Saruman, who shared a prior allegiance to Aule, the Balrog would probably not be easily swayed into service. Instead, I argue that Sauron would seek to leave the creature to its own devices, given its contentment to remain within the darkness of Moria. Whether it fears the wrath of the Valar or simply prefers to rule Moria through fear, Durin's Bane seems uninterested in either aiding or impeding Sauron's conquest of Middle Earth.

[@tsuchan]

It's an interesting thought. I don't think you're right with the connection about "Nameless things which Sauron is unaware of"... the Balrog isn't a nameless thing. But the rest... In the books, it is Gandalf who talks about the dwarves of Moria delving to greedily and too deep, disturbing that from which they fled, Durin's bane. Did Gandalf, of all people, not put a name to that menace. Did Aragorn not know, when he feared for Gandalf? It's true that Legolas didn't make the connection ahead of time. When Gandalf was relating the fight at the door, do you think the Balrog was on the other side? It was the same foe as at the bridge? If so, it's true, Gandalf said, "What it was I cannot guess". But when the door burst into pieces, "something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside". Does that sound like a Balrog? Why was he so close, but took so long to come back? Later on, seeing the red glow, Gandalf says, "There is some new devilry here"... implying it wasn't the same thing as at the door. But then... and this I guess wins you the main argument: "A Balrog", muttered Gandalf, "Now I understand." About control, then... Well, if I understood Carl's argument, it wasn't that the Balrog was under his control, but that he was a natural ally and would have wanted to serve Sauron. On a different matter, in those thousands of years before the dwarves disturbed it... what was it doing? Sleeping? Playing poker with its mates? It doesn't seem it was active in Moria, ruling through fear. Was it ruling in any sense, if nobody knew it was there? Anyway, I enjoyed your stimulating thoughts.

[@EvilAgony1]

Speaking of the 'nameless things' ve had friends suggest that they happen to coincide with eldritch creatures. H.P lovecraft done snuck into LotR.

[@1Maklak]

After Sauron lost his ring, maybe he didn't want to talk to other powerful entities, like Smaug or Barlog, without getting back the ring first.

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

While i dont believe the balrog was directly under Saurons command, he soon would have been had Sauron recovered the Ring. As it was he was likely already being influenced by Sauron from afar, whethor the Balrog knew this or not. Either the Ring called out to him in Moria and thats why he appeared or else orcs reported their presence. But it seems unlikely that the Balrog would rouse himself to go after 9 individuals when an army of orcs were on them. He either sensed the Ring or Gandalf or both. Thats why he didnt leave it to the little guys.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah I think it's quite plausible that the Balrog could sense the One Ring. After all it's implied that the Watcher in the Water was able to, and I I imagine that the Balrog was more sensitive to its presence.

[@mussardlucien6355]

​@@GeekZoneMT Yes, it's very likely the Balrog could sense the One ring. When I think of it, crossing Balrog's territory with the One Ring was a very stupid idea x) And that might be the real reason why Gandalf was so reluctant to do so. IMO, there is no way Sauron could control the Balrog without his One ring. And if the possibility araised, the Balrog (like Saruman) would have claimed the One ring for himself.

[@jamesgraham6109]

Sauron didn't enlist the balrog (Durin's Bane) before the Third Age because it was hiding and possibly sealed deep, deep in Moria. During the Third Age, it was the dwarves that were master miners that could dig so deep to awake and accidently release the balrog. Sauron was too weak without the One Ring to subdue a balrog to his will. More importantly, strategically for Sauron, Durin's Bane was doing a great job just denying Moria from the Western allies. Whether it was due to Sauron's design or not.

[@mikedeck8381]

The Balrogs were very high up in the hierarchy that Melkor had. They also seemed more loyal than Sauron who did desert Melkor in the First Age. It seems ridiculous that the Balrog found its way to where it was by chance. It could be that before his fall Melkor ordered it to go into hiding at this exact location. It could be that while the Balrog would've considered Sauron to be an ally it would never follow his orders whether he possessed the ring or not. Whatever orders Melkor gave it would take precedence. It seems fairly clear from the books that orcs entered Moria from the east at around the same time that the Fellowship was entering Mordor. Message were likely sent from Sauron to the Balrog at this time. Gandalf had travelled through Moria before without rousing the Balrog. We can see with Grisnakh that some of the orc captains had knowledge of the ring. So this seems to prove that Balrog was acting on information that a party would be near Moria and that it would be carrying the ring that Sauron needed to win the war. I don't believe that the Balrog would claim the ring for itself. It would see the ring as being part of Sauron's plan to fufill whatever mission Melkor had left to him. The one thing that seems to be a fair point is that Sauron did abandon Melkor in the First age, quite some time before he fell. We are also told he genuinely offered to leva Middle Earth at the end of the first age if he received a pardon. It's not clear what the Balrog would've known about this. By the time the Balrog was freed/revealed in the Third age all it would've seen is that Sauron was still a servant of Melkor and working to overthrow his enemies.

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

@@mikedeck8381 suaron could indeed control the balrog if he chose to. He was Morgoth's second in command and controlled all beings below him. Furthermore Sauron likely didnt betray Morgoth, he was likely sent into hiding by Morgoth whereareas its more likely the balrog was working on his own machinations after fleeing. Without the Ring Sauron could command the balrog, with the Ring on Sauron's hand the balrog's disobedience seems yet more laughable.

[@maxpiemuse9584]

Sauron wants the balrog in Moria because he single handedly garrisons a huge city in a key location. Oh and it's also the sole source of mithril. Sauron has plenty of orcs. He doesn't need the balrog for battle until such time as he is making his final assaults on Rivendell, The Grey Havens and Lothlorien.

[@Raz.C]

You'd think Sauron would want to keep his Balrog AWAY from Rivendell. I mean, Glorfindel is there and he killed a Balrog in Gondolin before he died in the First Age. Having come back from Valinor, having passed _through_ the Halls of Mandos, Glorfindel would have been an even mightier opponent against the Balrog, than he once was. Glorfindel chased the Nazgul away from Frodo at the borders of Rivendell. The Nazgul would have told Sauron who it was who defeated them, making them flee in terror from his overpowering awe (Glorfindel was a mighty Noldorin Elf, who lived in Valinor in the light of the Two Trees). Sauron would have KNOWN that Glorfindel was in Rivendell. There's no way in Udun that Sauron would have sent a single Balrog against Glorfindel, let alone sending him against an Elven army with Glorfindel in its ranks. Conversely, Cirdan never lived in Valinor, having stayed on the shores of Middle Earth, searching for Elu Thingol. He also wasn't a Noldor, he was Teleri. While Cirdan was indeed old among Elves, he wasn't as mighty in stature or in spirit as those of the Noldor, particularly Galadrial (perhaps the mightiest Elf in Middle Earth) and Glorfindel (second only to Galadriel). If the Balrog were to attack any Elven stronghold, it would HAVE to have been Mithlond. Cirdan was the one who posed the least threat to the Balrog, while it was certain death for the Balrog if it got too close Imladris or Lothlorien.

[@lordvader4133]

@@Raz.C What about the Woodland realm in Mirkwood?

[@Raz.C]

@@lordvader4133 Sure. If I recall correctly, Thranduil was a Lathrin Elf (Lathrim) and one of the Sindar. That makes him both Teleri and Moriquendi. He never went to Valinor the first time, he refused the summons to return (end o' first age) and he never lived in the light of Telperion and Laurelin. In the BEST case scenario, he might be able to force himself to endure the presence of the Balrog enough that he could fight it, but even in this best case scenario, he has no hope of beating it. Even if he impossibly managed to defeat the Balrog, he utterly lacked the power to be able to kill even a defeated Balrog. In the most likely case, he would withdraw to his stronghold, hiding behind his walls and gate. The Balrog would breach his gates and Thranduil would fall to his knees, trembling before the Balrog, as it killed him. Thranduil would be unable to even raise his arm in his own defence. The rest of his people in Mirkwood would flee and scatter with most of them being absorbed into the more powerful kingdoms of Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan. At which point, a smart Dark Overlord would do well to send the Balrog on to Mithlond and to challenge Cirdan. So, 'Yes.' The Woodland Realm would have been an easy target and an ideal one for Sauron to unleash a Balrog upon. Had Sauron done so early enough (75 odd years before his death), he might have used the Balrog to destroy the Woodland Realm and then press on to Erebor and have the Balrog petition the dragon, thus enlisting the aid of Smaug in his campaign. Imagine how much worse things would have been if along with everything the free people of Middle Earth faced, they ALSO had to face armies led by numerous Nazgul, a baleful Balrog and a damned Dragon!! Ps: If the above HAD happened, I still think "the good guys" would have won in the end, but it would NOT have been a happy ending. Much like the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, too much would have been lost in achieving their aims that no one would ever see it as a victory.

[@coopercross6123]

@@Raz.C bro you're a not a teacher you're a b52 dropping knowledge bombs of LotR

[@Raz.C]

@@coopercross6123 Cheers, mate :D

[@gibranlewis7300]

I don't think we can rule out Sauron's intent to utilize the Balrog, if he could. The very real possibility is that Gandalf interrupted his plan. Even before sending in the orcs, Sauron probably was aware of the other fallen Ainur demon, and the Balrog was likely aware of him. We are told that Sauron's malicious spirit and will began rousing and directing all evil things in the reach of his thought, and Moria was closer to Dol Guldur than any other enemy stronghold: also, while orcs and trolls would have been unable to properly perceive or understand the evil will motivating them, the Balrog, with his great spiritual power and understanding, and also with his almost certain famiilarity with Sauron from the joint service to Melkor the Morgoth of olde, would have quickly recognized the outside power that was moving upon him and also been recognized by Sauron, something akin to what we see with Gandalf's sealing spell on the chamber door of Marzabul, where Gandalf says of the Balrog "...it laid hold of the iron door ring, and then it perceived me and my spell! Its counter spell was terrible!" The Balrog would have been MOST valuable to Sauron in one assault in particular: the assault on Lothlorien; even the Nazgul were nervous of approaching Lothlorien and feared the power of the Calaquendi High Elf princess Galadriel and the ring Nenya: but Balrogs had no fear of High Elves: they had terrorized even the great among the High Elves of olde, they had slain members of Galadriel's own closely related family, and had served as the captains in all Morgoth's wars against the Noldor. The Balrog would have had spiritual/magical power enough to break through the enchantments with which Galadriel fenced in Lothlorien, and he would have had power to challenge her directly; likely, with a Balrog leading, the nazgul would have been willing to follow into Lothlorien. But none of this ever happens. Gandalf's duel with the Balrog takes place BEFORE Sauron is ready to launch his attacks on Lothlorien; it may be that the Balrog would not have aided him in any event, but it is just as likely that Sauron was holding back on employing the aid of his fellow fallen Ainur/Maiar demon until the very last moment, as a type of horrible "October" surprise, but that the surprise never was allowed to come to fruition due to the intervention of Gandalf the Gray.

[@tinman67641]

I believe if Sauron had the Ring he could have controlled the Balrog. Without the ring he could maybe coerce it with promises but not truly command it.

[@michaelsavage7884]

So happy to see my question answered and yet more mystery of Arda to explain.

[@GeekZoneMT]

You're welcome Michael!! :)

[@josephraffurty9293]

I have always wondered what the Balrig would have done if he had obtained the one ring. There are lots of possibilities there. The board game War of the Ring can include the balrog with the Lords of Middle Earth expansion. Definitely makes for some interesting scenarios.

[@co94]

'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.' Gandalf is establishing that the true conflict is between Melkor and Eru. Flame of Udon being a reference to Melkor’s fortress Utumno and the Secret Fire a reference to Eru’s ability to create life. Melkor is presumably the Shadow suggesting Sauron isnt pulling their strings. I agree with other posters who opine the Balrog would only take commands from Melkor himself despite Sauron’s position. Maybe The balrogs are like the german SS or the roman legionnaires fanatically sworn to protect only one leader. Just my 2 cents.

[@marcusc9931]

Sauron had the ringwraiths. Morgoth had the balrogs. That just gives a feeling of scale to Silmarillion.

[@VampireNewl]

The Balrogs served Melkor, Serving Sauron would kind of be like serving the boss's kid

[@otaku-sempai2197]

By allowing the Balrog to remain in Moria and keeping it out of the possession of the Longbeards, Sauron also theoretically had access to Moria's mithtril. On the other hand, it might not have had any particular loyalty to Sauron.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah, that's an interesting thought! I wonder if the Orcs ever mined it!

[@BJETNT]

Again it amazes me how much effort and thought you put into these kind of things impressive to say at least excellent video as always

[@NathanEagle2129]

If you read the books, you know that the Balrog, Gandalf, and Sauron are the same creatures (Maiar), although Sauron was a lot stronger than the other two.

[@fr.andygutierrez5356]

I love these videos and how you obviously think these things through. This one, in particular, was really interesting. I agree that Sauron wanted Durin’s Bane to stay riiiiight where he was. It was convenient for him, just like Shelob, and the North was more of a pressing concern for him than the South.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks Andy! These sort of videos are really fun to research and to prepare, so hopefully I'll find other similar topics in the future! :)

[@Enrobdoolb]

Gandalf: 🔱👄🔱 "You shall not pass" Balrog: 🔴👄🔴

[@Amiramekki]

Frodo : 💧👄💧

[@GeekZoneMT]

I love this thread!! 😂

[@trajanfidelis]

Legolas watching the others cry: 👁👄👁

[@kyle18934]

Aragon coming in clutch with his sword 🦾👁👄👁🤳🔪

[@wafflingmean4477]

The benefits of leaving it in Moria feel more like bonuses to me. Sauron poured a massive amount of his power into the One Ring. This likely means that if Durin's Bane cared to, it could overpower Sauron, seizing his place as the Dark Lord of Middle Earth. Sauron would not have been willing to take that risk. However, had he regained the One Ring, I believe he would have welcomed Durin's Bane into his forces.

[@ronnelechavez]

I think yes. Sauron is Morgoth's second in command and the Balrog will recognize him.

[@RIPchicken]

Brilliant video as always. Cheers!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks man!! :)

[@blightedcrowmain8236]

Well, imo, Sauron with the one ring might control a balrog. Otherwise because both of them are maiar, i dont think he could.

[@dylantorres2496]

What an amazing video! Thank you yet again for another great video for my weekend! Love this!

[@teeheeteeheeish]

I don’t think the Balrog would even talk to a ringless Sauron

[@josephcamilleri9809]

great video thanks man I love these vids!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Cheers man, I'm glad you like them! :)

[@Zantides]

Perhaps the Balrog of Moria never were loyal to Morgoth to begin with, as you state they're intelligent and could make their own decisions.

[@GeekZoneMT]

They chose to betray their fellow Ainur, and Iluvatar their creator to follow Morgoth, so I think at that point their fates were tied with his, and their goals aligned

[@Zantides]

@@GeekZoneMT If you betray something once, it's easier the next time though.

[@AV57]

They seemed pretty loyal when they rushed to save Melkor from Ungoliant. They easily could have betrayed Melkor and taken a silmaril or two for themselves and made themselves some minor lords, but they didn’t.

[@wape1]

I have been watching this channel for a while now and have to thank you for rekindling my interest in Tolkien's works. Keep up the good work! 😁👍

[@thomasdawe1837]

As many comments state, I think perhaps you are too fast to dismiss the Balrogs power. Being a Maia spirit like Sauron and Gandalf, I doubt that it would bow easily, and due to its passivity across millennia, perhaps perceives in the same way Gandalf does that Sauron will fail. I agree with the tactical analysis though, just on a different basis.

[@philipsackrider5326]

Your vid brought up a point which I had not considered before. Namely, Sauron's wider battle plans for controlling all of the passes through the Misty Mountains. Saruman then becomes the last part of that plan by using him to control passage through the Gap of Rohan.

[@hudsonball4702]

I think he couldn't control it yet. He was still trying to regain his strength during the war of the ring becasue he still didn't have the one ring and was thus not at full power nor had a body. Had he had gotten the One ring and regained his body, there's no doubt he would have been able to summon and control the Balrog.

[@darthwalrus4740]

Sauron had a physical form by during the war of the ring. Books imply it multiple times.

[@divinefallfromgrace]

Nice dissection dudo! The Balrogs were Lieutenants of Morgoth, and Sauron his Commander; both were fearsomely loyal to him. I'd imagine the Balrog would have a healthy respect for The Dark Lord. With Sauron's power being more metaphysical than physical, I believe he would have sensed the Balrog's presence (or his Orcs would've relayed word, as you stated), and with his immense intelligence and cunning, he would've anticipated that the Fellowship would try to cross the Misty Mountains, to try and avoid Sauron-controlled Isengard. Once the Nazgûl informed Sauron that the Fellowship was on the move, I reckon he planned to use the Balrog as an 'assassin'... to eliminate Gandalf. It makes most sense; as a Maiar, the Balrog's strength was comparable to Gandalf's, and it would have been wise to remove the foe's strongest ally (by far); I doubt ANYONE, even Gandalf himself, could've reckoned on his resurrection! With Gandalf gone, it would be much easier to try and reclaim the One Ring. The Balrog's life would be a small price to pay! The only thing that puzzles me is, with Gandalf ostensibly 'dead', why didn't he use the Nazgûl to attack the Fellowship at the Falls Of Rauros, instead of just Uruk-Hai? Maybe something for you to cover!! 😉 Lovin' these vids btw!!

[@robwatson2614]

I always imagined a fight between souron and a balrog

[@GeekZoneMT]

I imagine Sauron would wreck it :P

[@robwatson2614]

@@GeekZoneMT 😂😂 I'm inclined to agree

[@skaraturbo]

@@GeekZoneMT Even without the ring?

[@ElDuderinoh]

@@skaraturbo definitely not.

[@ElDuderinoh]

@@skaraturbo the ring was like literally all his power

[@immortallegacy100]

I think Sauron may have not trusted the Balrog. Although he had once been Morgoth's second in command, he wasn't as powerful as he once was, and it's entirely possible that something as powerful as a Balrog could turn his allies against him. The orcs of the Misty Mountains were terrified of it and might have served it out of fear if it came to a war between it and Sauron. It's also possible that the Balrog had no interest in going to war or killing, which is why it had been so passive since awaking from its slumber. It had it's own little kingdom to rule, no master to serve, and perhaps after losing the war and his master realized that resisting the Valar was futile. I also think it's possible that Sauron feared that the Balrog might try to claim The One Ring for itself, which is what it may have tried to do in "Fellowship of the Ring". I just can't imagine the Balrog willingly serving Sauron.

[@stevenleslie8557]

Saruman was aware of its existence in Moria, and since he was allied with Sauron he would have certainly made him aware.

[@fbsquid]

I’ve been so confused for so long thanks for explaining :)

[@jannetteberends8730]

And off course the famous “you shall not pass” scene, with this feline Balrog belongs in the narrative. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z57JYWl_rMmjjK8

[@scratchthesurface3138]

I wish the Tolkein franchise produced films from the start to the finish (Lord of the Rings). I feel we missed out on so much more mystery, adventure and all round awe. Someone needs to do this.

[@anubusx]

Sauron: "I have a Balrog." Gandalf: " We have a Merry and Pippin."

[@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal]

Would it not be Gandalf: I have a fellowship Sauron: I have a bal rog

[@parapoliticos52]

And why do they have girl names.

[@EveryoneElseIsWeirdImNormal]

@@parapoliticos52 because many of the names like gandalf came from the pros eda

[@T0mmy9898]

I think Durin's Bane managed to survive into the third age because it was cautious and cowardly. It must have fled early on to escape from the elves and hid for a long time with out having anyone directly notice it. Even in the fight with Gandalf, it tried to run away from him but Gandalf wouldn't let it escape. This shows it was very intelligent and aware that it was not invincible. This also is why it never tried to pull a Smaug and take more than what it already got in Moria. So for Sauron, I don't think it would have allied him directly. Not out of conflicting loyalties but because of its fear of ending up like the other Balrogs. Sauron probably knew it was there, something like that wouldn't have gone unnoticed by him, but I don't think Sauron could have ever controlled it. At most they probably had a nonaggression arrangement just to prevent them from being enemies with each other and to let Sauron's minions pass through unharmed.

[@barbarossarotbart]

Sorry, Sauron did control neither the Balrog of Moria nor Shelob. Both were beyond his control. He did not even control the evil spiders of Mirkwood! Or most of the other creatures (like dragons) which somehow survived the War of Wrath. He did not even control most of the orc tribes outside of Mordor. There has not even been a single attack of the orcs of Moria on Lothlorien, they all came from Dol Guldur. After the Witch-king left Eriador in 1975 TA, Sauron had no forces in the north. Gandalf feared that Sauron could somehow get Smaug as an ally and thus orchestrated Smaug's demise in the same year the White Council (which most likely included armed forces from Lothlorien) drove the Necromancer from Dol Guldur. BTW I am sure that the balrog of Moria is not the only Balrog who somehow survived...

[@raf7305]

You have got the best channel for lord of the rings content. Hands down.

[@kveldulf6190]

Its 3am and honestly i need to sleep but damn i want to know the answer.

[@Ms.MD7]

Lmao I was this same feeling (4AM my time).

[@BobGeis]

I've learned a ton from your channel. Thanks for your efforrts!

[@symbolitical4158]

Sauron: I have a balrog under my control! The world of men will fall! Melkor: *kid, those are rookie numbers*

[@shaunbrooke5108]

I’ve been asking this question forever, searching through sub Reddit’s and social media for its discussion but to no avail. Great video mate!

[@GeekZoneMT]

You're most welcome my friend! I hope you're finally satisfied with the answer :)

[@AV57]

I’m imagining a very funny scene in my head where a goblin nonchalantly mentions that he came across a balrog in Moria and the Necromancer pees himself out of excitement and fear.

[@milos55443]

I can't watch video right now but i just opened the video to give you a like. Great content bro!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Awww thanks bro! ❤️

[@korololo8466]

there is no way he could control him. sorry but he was just like shelob, a convenient allay but no servant. Also balrogs were interested in fulfilling Morgoths plan, meaning destruction NOT control. He (Balrog) was just too dangerous to unleash, too powerful and too unpredictable.If Sauron was in fact capable of controlling Balrog he would’ve used him in more epic way, maybe army leader?

[@revanofkorriban1505]

I 100% disagree with you. Sauron was Morgoth's 2nd-in-command, and was without a doubt the Balrog's leader at some point. It is likely that they did know each other on a personal level.

[@revanofkorriban1505]

@@Stephen64138 I suggest you read the Silmarillion. It outright states Sauron was the greatest of Melkor's servants. It is telling that of all of Melkor's servants, the only one who was trusted to go off and rule his own subdomain was Sauron. Glaurung doesn't count because he did no administration while sitting on the treasure hoard in Nargothrond.

[@revanofkorriban1505]

@@Stephen64138 The point is not about power, but hierarchy of command. My argument is that Sauron would not need to convince the Balrog to follow him-They both remain servants of Melkor, and Sauron is clearly the higher-ranking. It is also extremely likely, given that there were so few balrogs, that Sauron and the balrog of Moria knew one another on a personal level, which would probably help Sauron (a figure known for his skills in persuasion) to convince one of his former comrades and subordinates to join him in his quest to spread Melkor-worship over Arda.

[@revanofkorriban1505]

@@Stephen64138 There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with you on all fronts. If you think that's a mark of someone who must be wrong, you're probably not going to be convinced by anything.

[@revanofkorriban1505]

@@Stephen64138 I suppose you're not considering anything. First you say Sauron would have to force the Balrog to obey. Then you proceed with a bogus, falsely-cited case where an ally of Melkor coerced him by force into feeding her magical gems, falsely claiming that Ungoliant was his subordinate. In other words, if you read the Silmarillion, you're lying. Melkor and Ungoliant worked together in an alliance of convenience, not in a master-subordinate relationship. Melkor wanted to destroy and steal the light of Numenor, while Ungoliant wanted to destroy and consume it. They went to Valinor, killed the tree, stole gems of power, and on the return journey Ungoliant forced Melkor to give her the gems. Exhausted from the endeavor, Melkor had little choice but to obey, but balked at giving the Silmarils, so Ungoliant bound him up and only his calls for help, which alerted his Balrogs, saved him. Does this look like a master-subordinate relationship to you?!? Personal power mattered little when Melkor was bound up in a thread. The Balrogs could have abandoned him to try become their own dark lords, but on their own initiative they saved him. Because they were his servants, regardless of the fact that he was completely helpless. This is basically the same here. Sauron was higher-ranking than the Balrogs in Melkor's inner circle, and thus had greater authority, personal strength not mattering. Tolkien did not write much about the very secret machinations of evil to begin with. He didn't go into detail about the creation of the dragons, nor the exact campaigns of the War of Wrath, nor about what exactly the Witch-King did to King Earnur. He tells what is relevant and important to the narrative, and logical conclusions can be gleaned from them. The Balrog and Sauron had a history of working under the same master, with Sauron being higher-ranking. Balrogs had a history of serving their commanders, even if they were technically weaker. Sauron was good at persuasion, and was not one to let an opportunity go to waste, as shown in his brilliant subversion of Numenor, which pulled a victory from the jaws of defeat. The orcs of Moria were in contact with Sauron. Everything indicates that Sauron did indeed open up contact with the Balrog, and because the Balrog did not live long enough to participate in Sauron's extensively-planned campaigns in the War of the Ring, Tolkien never saw too much reason to tell something which would likely not have ever been recorded. The author left a lot of things to the readers' imagination, such as the magic system, what exactly Melkor's dragon-breeding programme was like, and how exactly Saruman devised the breeding of Uruk-hai. There is a strong tendency in Tolkien's lore in that it tells almost only that which was seen and known by the characters who can be loosely defined as "protagonists."

[@martystrasinger3801]

Well presented. If the question is “If Sauron knew of the balrog, why didn’t he make use of it”, it is possible (as mentioned) that he DID use it, and keeping Moria out of the hands of his enemies was that very use. Given the balrogs low-profile residence in Moria, that may not have been of concern to Sauron as long as the job was getting done. Sauron had many faults, but he never struck me as a micro-manager who told his senior staff how to do their jobs. He assigned tasks and assumed they would be carried out to best of his servants abilities. Also, given that he had the Nazgul for the Minas Tirith campaign, the balrog was better used at Moria, and as a backup or replacement for Saruman given his questionable allegiance.

[@Richie_Godsil]

The Balrog could have also been entirely content as the lord of Moria, it being one of the most grand realms in Middle Earth

[@TheHuntersHardcorePubsTeam7305]

Love THIS channel so mutch! 👍

[@railroadspikesareyummy7955]

Hell ye dewd. What about the balrog of gorgoroth named, Tar Gorgoroth

[@GeekZoneMT]

Unfortunately, that balrog is only found in the Shadow of Mordor series and not in the books, so it's not part of the canon mythology :(

[@railroadspikesareyummy7955]

Disappointing. I've always wondered where the others went.

[@Hunter-ym3gk]

Great video as always, I always liked the balrogs.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks buddy! Yeah, they're definitely one of the coolest creatures of Arda!

[@BrownxPrid3]

I remember reading somewhere that Sauron tried to recruit the Balrog but he couldn't control it at all because it was created by Morgoth, a much more powerful being than Sauron.

[@seanellis8491]

Obviously when I saw the movie back when I was about 10, I always thought the Balrog was just a mindless powerful creature. But after reading all the books, and delving into the lore. It’s incredible to know that Gandalf and the Balrog are basically long distance versions of the same kin, only the Balrog is an incredibly corrupted and distorted version of Gandalf. I don’t believe the Balrog would have joined Sauron, or he would have done so in the second age when Sauron was at his peak. So so cool all of this !!

[@sunilpermaul7876]

I believe Sauron didn't want to risk the Balrog turning against him or worse, getting the One Ring. However, by being in Moria, the Balrog is already serving a purpose as a boundary in Middle Earth. Sauron doesn't lose anything by leaving the Balrog in its position and actually gains by not having it challenge him.

[@mikeelliott5541]

Great thoughts and insights. The balrogs chief weapon would have been fear and fear routs armies. Also I think the Balrog would have been used in any assault on Lorien which was what Gladriel feared

[@EvilAgony1]

I do need to point this out; according to Shadow of War (i dont know if its cannon or not) Sauron did know the location of at least one balrog, given the quests to fight it.

Iron horde music FTW. Great video.

[@lexgalexy8627]

Considering the power of the Balrog, sauron could have conquered the realms of men with ease, imagine the battle for helms deep at the start it just destroys the wall with its massive sword. I always imagined that sauron would have been afraid of allying with a Balrog because of their immense power as maiar spirits like sauron, but they had their full power, whereas sauron had split his power into the one ring. So my theory is sauron would wait until he had the ring before allying with a fellow maiar spirit that could potentially oust him from power as he was so weak when the Balrog became known to him. Great video btw, I like your voice its kind of soothing.

[@MisterDoomHimself]

Thank you for another amazing video!

[@cainabel6356]

No. The Balrogs were loyal to one being, and that was their master, Melkor. The Balrogs are just like Saron, fallen Maiar. That is one reason why Gandalf could only slay that Belrog. It would take an incredible big army or a Maiar like Gandalf.

[@stephanwatson7902]

Without his Ring I don't think Sauron would have physically been as powerful as a Balrog, his power at this stage was in his forces and deception. Before and with his Ring he was more powerful

[@jake1141]

If the balrog had been discovered for what it was prior to the fellowship, I wonder if perhaps the white council or maybe even Glorfindel may have attempted to slay the creature.

[@jorgepascualfuentecilla3746]

That Balrog lived through the battle in which the Valar crushed a Melkor at the height of his military might. It is clear to me that this balrog was hiding and trying to go unnoticed. Not because he feared death as we do, but because a Balrog is a Maia chained to his body and unable to create a new one. The destruction of his body would have caused him to have to be a formless spirit and almost certainly have to have faced the judgment of the Valar, which were STILL out there. Join Sauron? Sauron probably struck him as suicidal. And even if it were not like that, I doubt very much that a Balrog (who I suppose would be proud beings) would bow down to a Sauron who is not in a higher hierarchy than his.

[@ryanmaginn1717]

Loved this video, Follow up video idea, “Could the balrog have actually used the one ring? And what would happen if the balrog managed to use it?”

[@srdjanvukojevic5755]

Great video, could you make one about Smaug?

[@matthijsdresscher8862]

These drawings are amazing!

[@antondavidovic3996]

In my opinion I believe that Durin's Bane was an ally to Sauron or at least made a deal with him. Notice how he focused his power on the Fellowship whilst ignoring the orcs, he knew that the One Ring was in their possession. Why would he bother attacking the Fellowship if they were just passing by, what would it matter to him if he didn't care about Sauron? Whilst the orcs do move out of the way due to fear of the Balrog, the Balrog still came from the same direction that the orcs and trolls came from. While I don't believe that the Balrog was a "servant" of Sauron, I wouldn't be surprised if Sauron struck a deal with him via his orcs and uruks to get the ring for him in return for something else...

[@MrKlotzi123]

Putting the Balrog as a last Ditch Defense into Mount Doom itself would have very well prevented Frodo and Sam form destroying the Ring, as he would have stopped them without a Doubt. So I dare say that the Balrog would have made a huge Difference if he were utilized in the same Way as Shelob. The Orcs would have kept Moria under Controll anways, Balins efforts were floolish at best. I never understood why Mount Doom, the only Place the Ring could still be destroyed was not guarded at all. At least by a Nazgûl or tow.

[@sjoerddevries4023]

The Third Age was an age of diminishment. Sauron was but a husk of his Second Age power. The fact that he still was undefeatable by brute force, shows how much *more* the Elves had diminished. In the First Age, with the light of Valinor still in their eyes, Feanor and Glorfindel and other Noldor could face Balrogs and hope to prevail. In the Third Age, not a chance. The question is: did the Balrog diminish as well? If it didn't, this explains why it wouldn't submit to Sauron, being much more powerful than him now. (Also, if it knew that Sauron had repented at the end of the First Age, he might consider him a potential traitor). It may have gone on a rampage if it had known how weak the Elves were, but might have refrained out of fear of retribution from Valinor. After all, in the end, that it is how the Balrog died. Gandalf and the other Wizards were undiminished Maiar straight out of Valinor. However, they were expressly forbidden to use brute force as far as Elves or Men were involved. Saruman needed the Ring to break this restriction and to unlock his full power, as much as anything. Clearly, Gandalf got dispensation to use his full power for once, in fighting the Balrog, and vanquishing him.

[@robbier6389]

I would love to see an alternate timeline where the Balrog gets the Ring while Frodo is in Moria and rises up as a challenger to Sauron.

[@joshuaschreiber1914]

Why not have sauron take the balrog, 9 wraiths and an army and destroy Gondor. After that, seat the balrog on the throne to severely lower morale of all the other races. Then have the remaining army bolstered and reinforced. After that take the 9 wraiths and said army to wreak havoc on the rest of middle earth. The dwarves are focused on defending their own keeps and treasures, so they’ll likely stand aside to defend their own halls until it’s too late. The elves are already on the wane and sailing to distant shores, so the damage they could have once dealt is now severely diminished. The humans are divided and their morale especially low because of Gondors fall. Hobbits are near non existent. And Saruman is off doing his own thing, and is otherwise too blinded by his pursuit of power to see the full picture. Sauron kinda passed up an opportune moment to officially decimate middle earth. Gandalf would have only been able to delay the inevitable by then. Gondors fall would have been the catalyst for the fall of Middle Earth to Saurons rule.

[@PaTrickRTreat]

It seems likely that the Balrog and Sauron personally knew each other

[@velocitymg]

Sauron was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth and controlled his armies. When Morgoth fell his army fled into the deepest darkest cracks of the world. I doubt Sauron knew of the Balrogs existence and in his weakened state doubtful he could have commanded it if he did. Same as Smaug, if Sauron had known of him prior to The hobbit, likely he may have tried to command Smaug to join him, but Smaug on his jewelled bed would probably have refused him. The balrog commanded the orcs, goblins and trolls of Moria, probably an army equal to Saurons. If they had both pledged allegiance, the war and the ring would have been lost.

[@mkhachfe]

Excellent analysis. Thanks

[@neflesward2727]

Great video about a very interesting topic. In my opinion the balrog would see Sauron as his equal, so I don't think he would have served him. But what powerful ally he could have been

[@GeekZoneMT]

It's worth mentioning that Maiar spirits were only equal in nature, and their power levels varied quite a bit (some of the lesser Maiar spirits had actually become Orcs!)

[@neflesward2727]

@@GeekZoneMT I didn't know this. Can I know the source? Where can I read about maiar becoming orcs?

[@GeekZoneMT]

@@neflesward2727 Of course! It's from the History of Middle-Earth - Morgoth's Ring. I'll share the relevant paragraph below :) “In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned’: i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).”

[@neflesward2727]

@@GeekZoneMT Thank you so much for the answer, it's always good to learn something new about lotr. You do a great service to this community!

[@nfiobufge1]

A very entertaining perspective. I like it and I think I’ll consider this as what actually happen.

[@MasterMalrubius]

I think there are several possible reasons. 1) Plot device. Using either the Balrog or Smaug in direct conflict with the West would made the current story a pushover for his forces. Tolkien would have had to come up a balancing power to keep it interesting. 2) Sauron did not have direct power over these beings. Orcs and humans were subject to the power of the One Ring and to his manipulation (as shown in his form before its destruction). So he could not direct them as Morgoth could not control Ungoliant, but could only enter into a pact with her. So instead Sauron used "soft power" such as combined ends with them to leverage their power. Shelob blocked the path into Mordor, Smaug took power away from the North East and the Balrog blocked Moria from re-population by the Dwarves. 3) Sauron could direct these powers but believed that the use of them would result in such an overwhelming power force that he may be subject to to discipline by the Valar such as Morgoth was. For me, it is more about the second choice. I think it was at best an evil covenant where each power had some minor affiliation with the other and chose to "get along" with the others but maintain their own identity.