I took a Christian class about atheism. It was worse than I expected.

[@psychedelicfungi]

The fact that he speaks of "tactics" says it all. He's not interested in having a discussion; he just wants to "win".

[@vibeslide]

I was thinking the same.

[@effyleven]

@@vibeslide Me too.

[@JD-xz1mx]

Its an apologetics course. Apologetics in anything is definitionally tactical. This is like complaining that a debate class is too focused on arguing.

[@vibeslide]

@@JD-xz1mx Hmm. In that case it might've been a misunderstanding on my part. This entire theism vs. atheism thing feels really alien to me and I only stumbled accidentally over this video (Thx KZbin). I think this debate , and the world as a whole, needs more of "We agree to disagree".

[@Julia-lk8jn]

@@JD-xz1mx I looked the word up, and found the definition "defense of a faith". I wouldn't say that that necessarily means the "out to score points" approach of this video, but then I haven't read the entire article. But defending one's faith shouldn't by definition mean to use straw arguments or false similes like ( cause of the entire cosmos can be deduced just like the cause of a knock in the door) or by just making up anecdotes.

[@saniwa655]

As a European, born and raised in a country with a big, deep historical and cultural background in Christianity yet where sciences are studied without any problem from any religious group, I'm baffled by how a lot of religious people in the US still treat religion and science like before the Enlightenment, or worse before the XVI century.

[@MendTheWorld]

It is not irrelevant that a significant component of the New World Branch of Europe was founded by fundamentalists who couldn’t function within the framework of the church orthodoxy in the countries where they came from. There’s always been a focus here on the “personal god”, whose existence is self-evident, and with whom it is possible to commune solely through personal experience, rather than through the mediation of the clergy. Actually. I’m just repeating something I’ve read. I’m not sure I even believe it. I can’t really comprehend the phenomenon you’re describing either.

[@mirablue1135]

Agreed!! I am from the UK, and even here if you say ur an atheist or a Christian or a Muslim or a Sikh, people don't care, They just treat you like a person. There if you say your an atheist, everyone cares

[@asphalthedgehog6580]

Exactly that. No-one here has to defend his/her belief or non-belief. Why care about that? I have some colleagues who really are Christians, one the son of a reverend but they still believe in evolution and that the earth is not flat. It's just ignorance to not believe in science. Because... if you believe, who created science. Without nature laws (who designed these) there would exist exactly: nothing.

[@RettMikhal]

Blame the South.

[@FuriouslySleepingIde]

American culture missed the Wars of Religion in Europe. We didn't have the 30 years war where Catholic vs Protestant left a higher proportion of the German population dead than either world war. We didn't have Anglican persecutions of Crypto-Catholics. We didn't have the inquisitions. The horrors of religion unchained killed the idea of Christendom in Europe. In American culture, Religion was a civilizing force. It was Christian settlers against non-Christian savages (or masters against slaves). It was the Wild West frontier transformed into settled communities centered on their Church. America did have the same seeds of conflict that Europe had in the 16th and 17th centuries. However the Americans solved them in a manner not available to Europe. They split communities and dissenters formed new colonies. The Puritans split from England. Rhode Island split from the Puritans. This doesn't justify the regressive views of American religion, just explains how they survived.

[@GodOfBrevity]

Thank you for explaining how “I don’t know” is such a valid and important part of scientific methodology. “I don’t know but I want to study it” launched more ships than virtually any other thought.

[@GalacticalHistorian]

I definitely agree! The curiosity of humans that could have stemmed from a lack of understanding about the world around them has led to many advancements in varying fields, and it would be missing the point completely to ignore “I don’t know” as a valid response.

[@axl256gamesx7]

It certainly helped more than religion... than modern religion

[@axl256gamesx7]

Idk i like roman gods It was such a cool thing

[@Ajehy]

I used to work at a history museum. When a visitor asked a question I didn’t know the answer to, I’d admit I didn’t know instead of making something up and sending them away with wrong information.

[@Ajehy]

@@axl256gamesx7Roman (and other polytheistic gods) make for great stories. Why does bad stuff happen to good people? There’s always SOMEONE to piss off!

[@Tasarran]

When I was young, I figured out Santa Claus, and I confronted my parents. They explained to me that Santa was to make Christmas special to little kids, and also (and this was the part that really stuck) telling little kids about Santa helped get them to behave. I was a smart little kid, and I realized it was a good thing to trick little kids who didn't know better into behaving with a mythical gift-giver (who sometimes was acted out by real people). My parents used the case of my rambunctious younger brother as really only listening under threat of Santa a lot of the time, and it made sense to me. It took me about two weeks to make the connection that religion is exactly the same thing! However, I slowly realized that the adults still really believed in this God person. I was baffled; couldn't they see the Santa truth? It was so clear to me...

[@voidb0rn211]

Honestly, since religion has existed forever in society, and considering the hardships and crudelty of the ancient world, it makes sense that people needed a reason, an explaination and a purpose in life, so that society would be a better place and people wouldn't just give up. Religion has kept soldiers determined and has made people have morals. It's just that, with more time for existential thinking, some people realized they don't need a god to explain things and have morals, and just abandoned the idea completely. I am agnostic, I don't believe we humans could really comprehend who and what god is, if it's an intelligent creature or just another set of laws, and I believe there's not really a point going past the "I don't know what caused everything" to try to understand the impossible. I think everyone should just believe in what they want, but it seems people really like to impose their idea on others and have to fight meaningless wars... what a sad reality

[@koniolg]

fr, believing in "being good so I can get presents" and "believing in being good so I can get p̶r̶e̶s̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ eternal life" are two totally different things, definitely not made up to control people and their (at least what would people in power perceive as) undesirable behaviour !?

[@l.n.3372]

I had that same realization but with the tooth fairy at age 6

[@otakuinred]

My mom always staunchly refused to pretend Santa was real, because she didn't want us thinking she would lie about powerful beings we never see. Didn't work, I'm fully removed from church but she did her best.

[@mastpg]

This is why I only tell my kids about monsters and demons that can only attack little kids who don't behave, don't clean up after themselves, don't brush their teeth, don't eat their vegetables and don't go to sleep when they're supposed to. When you become an adult, they cannot interact with you, nor can you perceive them.

[@wolfgangbrooks]

You ask, how could he be in Christian apologetics for so long without being able to address the most basic counter-argument. It's easy, his target audience isn't atheists, Christians pay the man to reassure themselves. He doesn't NEED a coherent logical argument.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

After interacting with apologists for a while now, I have to agree here.

[@Ignirium]

OP posted this comment 2 days ago and the author of the video responded 3 days ago! What is this evidence of?

[@jeffallen8689]

@@Ignirium Time zones?

[@tnyw872621h8474h9]

How do atheists ground a belief in logic itself? You are appealing to something here that is immaterial, invariant, and abstract but how do you know it exists?

[@jeffallen8689]

@@tnyw872621h8474h9 could your question be rephreased as "how do we know math exists?" and what does "exist" mean, in this context? I argue that it means "it functions"

[@Voobit]

I have aphantasia, which means that I lack a minds eye. I can’t picture things in my head. I also can’t hear things, feel things, and smell things that I imagine. In Greg’s world, that means that I wouldn’t have a soul. edit: i'm not ginger

[@Iugdcbbjugghj]

Stupid is knowing the truth seeing the truth and still believing the lies

[@marknieuweboer8099]

In my world - and I try to match it with reality as much as I can - you don't have a soul either. Neither do I and Kouklekou.

[@ChrischenL]

I was about to write the same. I apparently don’t have a soul either.

[@ggtragicsansbro6495]

Begone souless demon

[@michaeluwuowo]

No one can smell or feel things in their brain?

[@javieradorno2503]

This guy’s argument can be summed up to this: “The bible story sounds pretty to me. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. There’s no way it can’t be true.”

[@2gandalf257]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 bro heaven does not exist

[@Highdisordermortal]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Cope + ratio

[@Highdisordermortal]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I'll never believe in any god.

[@2gandalf257]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 The problem is, if i was alone without other humans how would i know to follow a random dude if he keeps a secret if i dont know.

[@comfeytimid1207]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 are you sure you don't have DID or schizophrenia? often times these religious experiences relate to these two disorders

[@bryanalexander7571]

I don't even remember where I heard this for the first time but it works great to shut people down when they get revved up for an argument on this topic is "Just because I don't know the answer doesn't mean that the answer is 'magic'".

[@Ari19904]

“Think of the most morally grotesque thing you can think of” Hmmm, how about telling children they’re going to burn in hell for eternity if they don’t believe in Jesus? That’s sounds pretty morally reprehensible to me.

[@spiritbaki108]

Or going back in time a little, *actually* burning the children for not believing in Jesus

[@michiyaslana5974]

I vote for condemning people for sex before marriage when priests assault children and get punished by moving to another parish, where they have a new pool of children to potentially hurt!

[@chuii_]

Ok👀

[@spicytrash4981]

@@chuii_ oKaY 👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀

[@reptoidrenaissance]

Not to mention doing that while defending priests who molest children, teaching kids that all observable reality is fake but magic & proven hoaxes are real, and encouraging the idea that anyone different deserves to die if they won't blindly obey whatever fairytales they're told... all done by fundamentalist Christians.

[@biggiechungus784]

"Atheists don't even try to explain the cause of the universe" The entire field of cosmology: "Am I a joke to you?"

[@ichabod1370]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Blah, Blah, Blah. 'Bye.

[@OVERCLOCKexe]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Yeah, you won't be convincing a single person in this comments section

[@Dragonage2ftw]

That is a dumb quote. Devout Catholic, btw.

[@glasshorse6893]

knowing some of these people, yeah it probably is a joke to him

[@tone618]

well frick you jesus he decided to die for sins I have not and never will commit his problem not mine I never asked him to

[@murderduck2246]

“Atheists are making a case” Normally we’re just trying to live and enjoy life, we don’t want to convince you of anything

[@prismaticc_abyss]

I only tell people there is no god if they try to present me with their lies that there is one. I don't go around preaching to people who didn't ask like theists do. If theists didn't exist there would be no need for atheism, we would all be agnostic.

[@prismaticc_abyss]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 hahaha, no. Go spread your fairy tales somewhere else

[@korok7523]

@@prismaticc_abyss ignore it. Pretty sure it’s a bot

[@geraldmahoney4856]

I’m non-religious and I believe there is no god. I don’t call myself an atheist because I don’t label myself based on superstition. I believe in the constitution of the United States and that everybody can worship as they please as long as they don’t push their beliefs on me. I do not judge or disparage anyone who is religious. Also, I will not debate, discuss or insult anyone’s religious beliefs. You do you; I will do me.

[@LineOfThy]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Holy sh*t

[@iambuhlockay8007]

Atheist: “What’s 100,567 x 6789?” Christian: “I couldn’t answer that off the top of my head” Atheist: “Well, I think the answer is 2.” Christian: “That’s definitely not true.” Atheist: “But you couldn’t even answer the question, and I could. So I’m right.” Christian: “But that’s not how math works. Multiplying two positive numbers will always give you a number greater than the two numbers being multiplied.” Atheist: “Oh, so even though you couldn’t answer the question, you can still use logic to rule out other false answers?” Christians: “…”

[@marksykes1191]

Maths !

[@Akiraboyu]

No: an atheist will ask for a demonstration for his reasoning, as it doesn't match classical mathematics concept, then argue based on how this reasoning is good or not and logical or not. (well in your case, it's the atheist who make a affirmation without proof, the burden of proof is for him). Maybe because this atheist know that you probably refer to logic and mathematic currently used and known as "Peano axioms", wich is a kind of "logic framework" used for arithmetics. But other frameworks can be created with their own axioms, in which a "100,567 x 6789" could be equal to 2! This answer so could be true under this specific axioms, but won't be true for Peano axioms.. And this, my dear, is an good example of knowledge, critical thinking and logic. And why religious peoples often fail to understand, lacking the will, the knowledge, or the cognitive ability to do so. And a small final point: on your fictive dialogue here, you are fallaciouslly inverting the arguments where the Atheist would make an affirmation and the christian asking for proof: in reallity, it's the exact opposite. You are welcomed.

[@iambuhlockay8007]

@@Akiraboyu Thanks… I guess? I’m not really sure what point you thought you made, or what point you thought I made.

[@Akiraboyu]

@@iambuhlockay8007 A solid hypothesis here is that..... I didn't get your point :D But we may never know :p (or maybe we will)

[@yohanndg1278]

​@@Akiraboyu Pretty sure you didn't, but it was fun to read 😂

[@calculated-_-9464]

That line when he said, “You’re not just a piece of meat floating through the universe!” Oh man, how I would love to say to that man that yes, yes I am just a floating piece of meat that is almost completely insignificant, and I’m happy, I accept my insignificance and live happily anyway

[@tuanminhthai5694]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Cause if he exist, then he want me to enter hell and suffer an infinite amount of pain because of a finite amount of sins that I have committed, then he is a fucking evil.

[@ichabod1370]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 What the heck is wrong with you? Seriously, what?

[@Nopquar]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 your God and heaven aren’t real. Pull your head out of your ass.

[@GoZags43]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Heaven is nonsensical. If it’s “eternal happiness,” then it’s literally just the equivalent of being high on meth for eternity. No one can maintain that level of joy for an extended period of time. It’s now how our brains work.

[@BooserBoi]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 You: "I have seen Heaven and Hell and can go into detail." Also You: "the human mind can't comprehend heaven." Not calling you a liar, but that's a pretty blatant contradiction.

[@lesh4357]

Decades ago I was being preached at by an American colleague. I told them I was an atheist. They than asked me "How do you not kill other people if you don't beleive in god" ! I was shocked by this question and asked them "is the only thing stopping you from killing people your belief in god ?"". They replied "what else would there be". I asked them if they knew what empathy was (for starters). A very worrying conversation. I always think about it when I see these mass shootings in America on the news.

[@Mehki227]

I watch a ton of true crime on TV and whenever I hear, he was raised in a conservative religious home or he grew up very religious, I know I'm about to hear about one of the worst crimes imaginable and about childhood abuse. I literally go uh-ho. Yeah...

[@russellg9622]

It really is terrifying sometimes. So many Theists claim that society couldn’t exist without religion but what group ever existed with religion that wasn’t already a part of a society? I may need to research that more and re word the question but it seems pretty obvious to me that is was society first then religion. Which means our moral code started with simple standards first then religion interjected itself into it later.

[@emporioalnino4670]

The idea that morality is derived from a God is so sociopathic to me. You're telling me you gladly would be raping and murdering and destroying anything and anyone, and the only thing stopping you is the thought of being denied eternal life? Sometimes I want to stop being so contemptuous of religion. But I haven't seen a good reason yet.

[@jessikaemanuelleirias3698]

You made a great point here. I've been under the impression that Christians solely believe in morals under this type of messed up idea, if they can be vile or corrupt "with" God, I can not imagine what they would be capable of without an inner moral compass. I one thought we were all born with it, regardless of religion beliefs... I guess not

[@asilnorahc8910]

@@jessikaemanuelleirias3698 On my part, I think empathy is innate but still needs nurturing. Like, we are born with the potential of empathy, but through social interactions, education, experience, we nurture it into something that makes us able to live in society and potentially have healthy relationships. Religion is a huge part of one's education, if they are raised in a religious family, so their empathy is nurtured through the lense of religion, so lots of them equate religion to their capacity for compassion, when it is not - it is a false correlation (maybe wrong words, but the idea gets through i think.) The idea though, that some people believe only the threat of Hell is what drives people to be good... yeah. That's messed up. At least it makes it clear that people who are good despite not believing in Hell or God are truly good. (or at least decent)

[@user-J.M.A.I]

"This is why you can gas termites but not je-..." He went all in with that one

[@elk7212]

for real, why noone talking about that bruh

[@megavolt2951]

I literally jumped and checked to make sure I heard him right. Craziest thing I've heard all day.

[@WisteriaDrake]

"Why do we feel that all humans are equal?" For one, that's fucking RICH coming from a Christian. Have you even read your book, mate? Do you not know your own history? Ever heard of the KKK and Westboro Baptist? For another, if that's true, then WHY did the Holocaust happen? Why has slavery happened? You're trying to claim that humans have some collective internal sense that we're all equal, but the fact that anyone ever has done horrible things that you wouldn't even do to animals, to other people, falsifies your claim, bucko.

[@SuperCopyCat12]

"Surely it's not THAT mask off-" "Well fuck me it really is"

[@mrs.kittycatgirl]

Crazy

[@threemooseqateers9689]

my favourite part is not just where he implies people with psychopathy don't have souls, but where he also implies people with aphantasia (a lack of a 'minds eye') don't have souls

[@MaximilliansHammer]

I think the reason Christian Apologists are so confident is because they've won EVERY SINGLE argument they've ever had with the hypothetical atheists they make up in their heads. An impressive 100% win rate.

[@michabaron4129]

I mean even in the stories he brings up as examples of using his bulletproof points in real life atheists are like 'yeah i dont buy it bro' which is something

[@michabaron4129]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 no thanks

[@jimmyjon9970]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 shut up, heathen

[@JiveDadson]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 What makes you think all that? Saying "Ray Comfort" does not count.

[@69eddieD]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Yawn

[@ascender14]

I'm a Christian myself, so I don't agree with all of your views, but I DO agree with each and every one of your objections to Koukl's invalid and disrespectful approach. I have been trying to communicate to fellow Christians for years that we cannot set up straw men to knock down and then feel like we have "won" something. I am very ashamed of the way many Christians approach conversations with those who disagree, using words like "tactical" and "this is the trick they will try", as though conversations with unbelievers are akin to war and that genuine disagreements are mere "tricks". I do not think that anyone who is not willing to consider that it is in fact THEY who are wrong has any business suggestion that the OTHER is wrong. Great video.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

Thank you! I really appreciate you communicating that to your fellow Christians. I myself try to influence other atheists to converse in a less combative, more compassionate way. Hopefully together we can help people better preserve their relationships while discussing this stuff! 🙏

[@psibert]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 The concept of 'sin' only exists if you accept the concept of a God. A sin is defined as an act against divine law. I do not accept the concept of a God, ergo I cannot sin. I can commit acts that are not conducive to societal good. It is likely that conformity to a common set of values is an evolutionary advantage, thus laws become codified and transgressors are punished. The search for reason behind things is also advantageous. The assumption that there is a reason for the noise in the dark leads to taking cover and survival as opposed to ignoring the noise and being killed by the things that made it. I could got on, but all I can do is provide rational explanations, which you will probably not accept. You will continue to believe that an all powerful being spent 13.6 billion years creating an almost infinite universe for the sole purpose of placing us on this rock round a very average star. And then has a 'personal' conversation with each of us. Even then after 2,000 years just 30% of those human follow Christianity and even they cannot agree on exactly what it means. Is that really very likely?

[@Hiforest]

@@psibert No one knows what the bible said when it was written. It is accepted it has been translated and altered over the centuries by man, and yet it is still considered the word of God. Even if a God had a hand in the original text, it's not anything close to that now, I just don't think anyone should be trusting it.

[@thecubist3817]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 "either you are lying or Jesus is lying." Why not both? why cant I sin and jesus have not died for it? what jesus just died because he was saying some pretty crazy stuff against the important people of the time so they had him executed? the two things are not mutually exclusive.

[@TheOmegaXicor]

@@thecubist3817 the usual answer there is that he said that's why he is dying (I massively doubt any of the books saying that have any evidence behind them) but "if the book that says he died also says he said that is why then logically he has to have died for that reason" and that makes sense to people.

[@breakfaith3031]

This dude reminds me of my grade 9 English teacher who tried to tell me that I'm not an atheist because I spent Christmas with my family instead of at school. What was I gonna do, go sit on the steps in front of the locked building for several hours in the middle of winter?

[@jonasmariunas9507]

she says yes

[@markshepperson3603]

You should have told him where Thursday came from.

[@Dagoroth55]

You say you celebrate Winter Solstice like a Pagan.

[@breakfaith3031]

@@markshepperson3603 I don't think she's ready for that kind of knowledge lol

[@Eldiran1]

​@@markshepperson3603 OH i google it and it's amazing , i didn't know. Fun fact , in france , we change saturday and sunday to be more christian (just the name , saturday become samedi , a word derived from "shabbat" , and sunday become dimanche , a word originated from "dies Dominicus" , the lord's day ) . But in english and other like german , they keep the roman origins . (it's pretty obvious with SUNday but not so much with saturday ). Thanks for the trivia man , appreciate !

[@TheNinthGeneration1]

Every time I see theists arguing for the existence of their specific god, they only ever go as far as “well if a god could theoretically exist, that’s explicit proof that my specific one exists and that all others are false”, almost as if god is the name of their deity, rather than a title for a class of being with power over reality. This is the biggest pitfall that every theist hits, you aren’t proving the possibility of any god, you’re proving the existence of your specific god. It’s most obvious in the “something or nothing” question, they only ever allow that the something is personal and intelligent and a being, when it could just as easily be a non-personal, non-intelligent, non-being that is still a thing. That’s the fundamental flaw of theism, a cause can be anything.

[@mreeeeeegf]

I always love apologists casually jumping to the wildest conclusions. "If there was something, rather than nothing, it mustve been outside of the natural world, and powerful, and smart, and personal" Dude calm down, wtf

[@angrytoaster5974]

You summed up Christianity (well most of it) perfectly!

[@angrytoaster5974]

@Rawlings Rawlings ignorantly writes: “You don’t know what you’re talking about.” 1) You don’t have to copy and paste the same thing twice. (I get pinged either way ;) ) 2) I am fully aware that the universe has some sort of beginning, seeing as the Steady State theory has been disproven, but that is not the part in which the commenter is referring to. They are referring to the notion that it was made by something, “powerful, and smart, and personal.” That, in fact, is the conclusion that people jump to to ‘prove’ the existence of god. My sincerest apologies, but it seems that, “You don’t know what you’re talking about.” It also seems you deserve the title, “dummy,” not me, contrary to your conclusion. 3) I’m not sure what’s going on with your second sentence. You have either two noun-markers next to each other or have ‘a’ as a classification. In the first case, “priori,” should be capitalized and ‘a’ doesn’t belong. In the second, you would capitalize both and possibly add a hyphen if needed. 4) Even a dummy should know not to be annoying, so I guess I’ll have to demote you to, “ignoramus,” instead! 5) Have a nice life knowing that an atheist, out there somewhere, corrected your grammar. (:

[@angrytoaster5974]

@Rawlings kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipjMpJieqqyCr7s 1) I was referring to your original post against the creator of the original comment. You literally just copy and pasted it to reply to me, save for the introduction (which I happily mocked). You get pinged for every comment in the comment chain you’re in. 2) Thank you for teaching me a new word and grammatical rule! Really, I quite enjoy learning. I will admit I have been correct, but I also will admit that that wasn’t my main argument. Now that the grammar has been established, let’s move on to the main point. Theism vs Atheism, in this context. Actually, let’s talk first about a specific word chose to insult me with :). You used an accented version of, what I will only refer to as, the ‘r word.’ That word has years of mental torment attached to it and many people who are defined by the actual definition are smarter than you. I never once referred to you in a slur or curse. I don’t need violent words to describe what you are because my brain has a big enough capacity to be anything more than apathetic about others. 3) I decided to educate myself on, “The Five Reasons,” by watching a video (as linked above). The, in your words, “bulletproof,” argument is disproven by itself. If you believe it is not adequately explained in the video, please feel free to give a source you think best describes it! 4) I am willing to give you my definition, no problem, but I can’t guarantee it will be the same as yours. I would define God as someone who is believed to, by certain religions, have created or started time, the universe, and/or the beginning of everything. Someone who is said to be omniscient and all powerful. I also find your rendition of atheists as a whole ignorant. I just debunked it. Not all atheists are the same, and all of us may have differing reasons for our beliefs or lack here of. I, myself, for example, don’t believe in God, a god, or many gods, because many of the arguments originally made to share the idea that God(s) is/are real have been proven false by new scientific discoveries. I understand what God is believed to by, and I am, as shown, willing to define God. I just also recognize the fact that there is science, evolution, and physically proven things. I believe that whoever wants to believe in God(s) can, but that it’s not okay to force that belief on others. Forcing beliefs is what many apologists do. Contrary to the stated half-baked insult, I’m not illiterate, but right now I kind of wish I was. At least I wouldn’t be subject to your obtuse, ignorant insensibility.

[@angrytoaster5974]

@Rawlings If you could read properly, you would be able to tell that I do, in fact, take criticism ;). I enjoy it, especially when it teaches me something new, because I’m not ignorant nor stupid. You, of all people, wouldn’t be able to tell who has a more than half a brain, since you, obviously, don’t know what it’s like. I sincerely apologize to all the people in your life being forced to deal with you.

[@martindizlindahl3649]

Man, Rawlings you're just a fully fledged ashole brother. Maybe that God of yours could grant you some of the kindness you lot preach to everyone else.

[@gentlesoul221]

The worst part about this whole course is the fact that, and stay with me here...he's fine with challenging atheists' beliefs, but if an atheist tried to challenge christian beliefs, it would be labeled as an attack on religion. People like this are the biggest hypocrites out there, and give my faith a bad name. Edit: I am open minded and accept everyone no matter what they believe, as long as you don't hurt anyone. I believe what I want, so I let anyone do the same within reason

[@charliepershall5956]

The Dishonest and Christian's Fear Truth Because 'Truth' exposes their Dishonesty. Christian's Basic Principles Are Corrupt How is it that you Christian's successfully deceive those in other nations to worship your Imaginary Mythical Fantasy Gods? And then go to war for the nation you worship. And kill those members of your own churches? The Basic Principle Of Christianity It is Corrupt and far from Justice. To sentence and executing an innocent man for the crime of all humanity. What Honest person would let your neighbor be executed for your own crime? Evidently a Christian would. However, you all will face your own consequences, for your corruption and crime. You will not pin it on an innocent man. You all will harvest what you plant. And Christianity also promote Cannibalism by a ritual that they pretend they are eating Jesus's flesh and drinking his blood. Truth Is Existence Truth is All That Truly Exists. Other Than Truth there is Just The understood Concept of An Absence. Lies with intent to deceive or not is fantasy. Lies remain in the nonexistent realm. Nothing Can Survive Singular It is only in a huge Complex Mass form can anything survive and succeed. The Great Creator and the Spirit Energy Source, Its Is Science, it is not Religion. Religion is Fantasy. The Great Designer and Creator, The spirit Energy Source, Matter, Knowledge, Energy, Time and Space Has Always Existed. All are Without Beginning or end. Beginning and End only reveals an absence. The Great Creator is far more Massive and complex than the God worshipers realize and understand. The Great Creator is not a being somewhere in space. The Great Creator is a huge mass of spirits in perfect unity. And with the same care for each another. Honesty and understanding is the only true belief. Without honesty and understanding we do not know what to believe. To accept other’s opinion of the truth without proving it to yourself; it is being deceived it is not believing. We must understand to believe. Truth will solve all our problems before we create them; and ignore or reject the truth; problems will multiply all by themselves; those problems will need no help. Have a great and a meaningful life if it is at all possible. Just whispers, of the Spirit of Reality.

[@ClementGreen]

You don't need atheists to give your faith a bad name. You've done all work yourselves already.

[@charliepershall5956]

The Honest will search & Find The Truth Do not expects some one else to find and prove the Truth to you. It is your responsibility. The task is simple and Easy. Truth Is Existence Truth is All That Truly Exists. Other Than Truth there is Just The understood Concept of An Absence. Lies with intent to deceive or not is fantasy. Lies remain in the nonexistent realm. Creation is only the rearrangement of Matter. As Existence and Matter does not evolve from nothing. The Great Designer and Creator, The Spirit Energy Source, Matter, Knowledge, Energy, Time, and Space Has Always Existed. All Without Beginning or end. Beginning and End only reveals an absence. The Great Creator is far more Massive and complex than the God worshipers realize and understand. The Great Creator is not a being somewhere in space. The Great Creator is a huge mass of spirits in perfect unity. And with the same care for each another. The Basic Principles of All Creation Is A Huge complex Mass Of Smaller Particles. Nothing Can Survive Singular It is only in a huge Complex Mass can anything survive and succeed. The Great Creator and the Spirit Energy Source, Its Is Science, it is not Religion. Religion is Fantasy. The Basic Of Justice It is do unto others as you would like to be done unto you. The Basic Principle Of Christianity It is Corrupt and far from Justice. To sentence and executing an innocent man for the crime of all humanity. What Honest person would let your neighbor be executed for your own crime? Evidently a Christian would. However, you all will face your own consequences, for your corruption and crime. You will not pin it on an innocent man. You all will harvest what you plant. consequences for corrupt behavior is How the spirits of human learn. And Christianity also promote Cannibalism by a ritual that they pretend they are eating Jesus's flesh and drinking his blood. The Great Creator performs Justice. You all will face your own consequences for your corruption and crimes. You will not pin them an innocent Man. How is it that you Christian's successfully deceive those in other nations to worship your Imaginary Mythical Fantasy Gods? And then go to war for the nation you worship. And kill those members of your own churches? The Universe was the first Intelligent design That we are aware of. The Universe was specially designed for life on this Planet Earth. it is powered and controlled by the 'The Spirit Energy Source.' True Science and Truth are the same, both are the understanding of the Great Creator that Created all that exists, and the Understanding of the Great Creator's Creation. Words to the honest and wise: honesty and understanding is the only true belief. Without honesty and understanding we do not know what to believe. To accept other’s opinion of the truth without proving it to yourself; it is being deceived it is not believing. We must understand to believe. Until Next time: Sweet Dreams: Truth will solve all our problems before we create them; and ignore or reject the truth; problems will multiply all by themselves; those problems will need no help. Have a great and a meaningful life if it is at all possible. Just whispers, of the Spirit of Reality.

[@gentlesoul221]

@@ClementGreen As a christian, I will agree, we have had too many bad apples.

[@ClementGreen]

@@gentlesoul221 The first being Jesus, who was not only a convicted criminal, but believed in human sacrifice. To give him his due though, he didn't sacrifice other people, just himself. But still.

[@rossgalbraith3878]

I like what Matt Dillahunty says about the "explanatory" power of theism: you can't explain a mystery by appealing to a larger mystery.

[@petyreyvind9963]

That's actually a really good point-

[@chrislyne377]

It's turtles all the way down

[@Given119]

Because... Chance and time... Like that isn't synonymous with mystery.

[@rossgalbraith3878]

@@Given119 Correct. Neither are synonymous with mystery.

[@Given119]

@@rossgalbraith3878 chance and time in fact "mystery" catagories in the context of a godless worldview. The fact that a godless worldview can't account for or be be absolutely certain of much if anything exposes the foolishness of godlessness. 🤷🏼‍♂️ How'd the universe get here... Don't know, time and chance. Same appeal to the unknown.

[@worldlinezero4783]

I love how his argument about consciousness implies that people with Aphantasia don't have souls

[@deadzoneternity]

As someone with aphantasia, it's a sad day to discover I have no soul because I can't picture my mother's clothing in my head.

[@leol2254]

this is so sad

[@deadzoneternity]

@@thefaithfulchristian2035 No, you may not, thanks for asking tho

[@thefaithfulchristian2035]

@@deadzoneternity no problem thank you

[@dolfuny]

I'm actually feeling pretty good about it, no soul for me lol

[@maalikserebryakov]

Wow ur life must suck

[@iamdivan7368]

"if one version provides an explanation for something, and the other doesn't - then the first one is better" So what I'm getting here is that if you are asked "What did your Neighbour have for breakfast?" The answer "He was sniffing unicorn horn dust" is better than "I don't know" Yeah, sure dude

[@ladygeneveve3805]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 if the punishment for lying is being tortured for all eternity then the person deciding the punishments is a horrible monster.

[@VPshandlewasstolen]

"he was sniffing unicorn horn dust" 💀💀💀💀💀 i can't dude, take my like

[@FallenQueenOfCrows]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 If hatred towards someone sends you to hell Im pretty sure the entire earth is doomed

[@naturessacrifice8265]

@@FallenQueenOfCrows Hell that guy you're replying to is speed running the "break every rule of the Bible about spreading the word of God" category. He's judging everyone, he's a hateful prick and is incredibly loud.

[@miguelmackay4851]

Bc obviously an explanation that explains everything is better than admitting you don’t know jack sht 😂😂😂😂😂

[@Marshemillow]

I'm particularly appalled by the, _"Maybe we feel guilty because we ARE guilty."_ We can, in fact, feel guilty even if we haven't done anything wrong!! It is so fucking dangerous to spread that message to people who might have guilt forced onto them from abusive codependency or something similar. "Objective morality" my ass.

[@Marshemillow]

@Puer Mortem That is unfortunately exactly true. Trust me, as an ex-cult member, I'm all too familiar with the cycle of using misplaced guilt to suck people back in. I guess I just wish moderate christians understood this instead of continuously trying to defend the human-made perpetuator of their abuse.

[@zer0iam]

actually also the oposite of your claim is also posible, someone can be guilty but feel no guilt at all, as there are scammers or serial killers who can do the most terrible things on another person yet feel no remorse on their actions

[@Lordpeyre]

Good point!!

[@angryatheist]

Objectively speaking even murder can be permissible ( bin ladens death) , I’m not American but I cheered , my point is there is no objective morality it’s all societal rationalism

[@ThePotatoSapien]

His whole argument around “objective morality” just annoyed me. I don’t believe there are ANY objective moral rules, and anyone who claims otherwise will need to give some real good reasons for it. The only reason why humans SEEM to share objective morals is because we evolved to be that way. That doesn’t mean that “thou shall not kill” is an objective universal, it just means that, GENERALLY, we evolved to have a strong pack instinct, and you can’t cooperate to hunt for food if everyone keeps murdering everyone else! Murder wasn’t always illegal, and murder wasn’t always frowned upon. It’s just that, THESE days, we tend to not lie it, so we’ve constructed our laws around that general instinct to ostracize people that could potentially destabilize the trust of our troop. Nothing more, nothing less. If a different species ever becomes intelligent to form laws, or if there is already a species with a type of “moral code”, they might consider murder completely differently from us! Also, that’s just such a horrible thing to say to anyone. Again, with evolution throwing us under the bus, but social anxiety and imposter syndrome come from our instinct to “fit in” with the group. We NEED validation for others, and we NEED to be able to trust people. The problem is that some people can be awful, and those people will hurt you, even if you trust them. But your instincts tell you they should be trusted, especially if they’re one of the only people you CAN rely on, so, in an effort to keep mutual trust going, your brain decides that it’s your fault. Because sometimes learning that someone can’t be trusted hurts more than thinking it’s something you did. But saying things like this don’t help. They just reaffirm the brain’s unhealthy coping mechanisms and hinder the process to having healthy relationships. I feel terrible for anyone who is stuck listening to this guy, because he could do some real damage.

[@TheFinius]

I admire your ability to listen to this without banging your head on a while and make rational argument return without sounding frustrated.

[@FurTheWorkers]

"Where was that image? It wasn't in your brain." Yes! Yes, it was! Literally everything you see is in your brain, because that's how senses work and are processed.

[@adamwright4135]

if these people had even a basic grasp of the science they so easily dismiss, we wouldn't have to argue about things like evolution, "something coming from nothing", and so on - concepts with an irrefutable scientific explanation that don't require the intervention of some magic supernatural being

[@Julia-lk8jn]

@@michaelenquist3728 I know that science needs to be falsifiable, but I'm not sure that "irrefutable" is the same as "not falsifiable". Doesn't "irrefutable" in the context used mean "proven beyond any reasonable doubt" ? If not, is there another word for it? (English isn't my first language.)

[@paulustrucenus]

@@Julia-lk8jn Something irrefutable is something there CAN'T be any counter argument to. For example, I could say that unicorns exist, but they don't interact with traditional matter and thus can't be detected by our instruments nor our senses. There is no counter argument showing this can't be true. It is irrefutable, and thus not scientific. Einstein's theory is considered as true by everyone, but we could maybe one day make a new discovery which could invalidate Einstein's theory. But my theory regarding unicorns cannot in any way be proven 100% wrong.

[@amarvelouscalm]

Yeah, by his logic because I have aphantasia, which makes me completely unable to "picture" things in my mind, I don't have a soul. I wonder how that jives with his worldview.

[@SagiNoSaint]

@@paulustrucenus That's falsifiability not irrefutability, for example, 2 + 2 = 4 is irrefutable, but it's falsifiable because it can be tested and tried to prove wrong, you won't succeed that's why its irrefutable. For clarification heres the definition: Falsifiability is the capacity for some proposition, statement, theory or hypothesis to be proven wrong. That capacity is an essential component of the scientific method and hypothesis testing. In a scientific context, falsifiability is sometimes considered synonymous with testability.

[@jungtothehuimang]

"maybe we feel guilty because we are guilty" is the most diagusting thing to think, there are so many people woth mental health conditions like OCD, PTSD, severe anxiety disorders, etc where their brain overwhelms them with an unwarranted sense of guilt. These people are not guilty of anything except having mental illness. And people like this are just creating more pain for people who are already suffering.

[@ASweetShortCake]

Where did he say that? Could I please get a Timestamp?

[@DRKLRD-kv4cm]

​@@ASweetShortCakei think around the last 6 minutes

[@AidanDaGreat]

Yeah I suffered from anxiety and depression because I felt helpless and that I was going to help. I got the help I needed though. It really rankles me to see this. This could’ve drove me to you know whatting myself. Sorry about him.

[@jungtothehuimang]

@@AidanDaGreat sorry you had to go through this as well my friend, glad to hear you got the help you needed! Hope you're doing well.

[@AidanDaGreat]

@@jungtothehuimang I'm doing well now, thanks for asking. It's just that my fellow Christians can be such jerks makes me rather upset.

[@troyserdynski4030]

Hearing humanity called "The ultimate unplanned pregnancy" is oddly the best way to describe humanity and I will proceed to use it from now on.

[@rhokesh4391]

That actually made me laugh out loud, nice comparison ;) I would like to add that the result of an unplanned pregnancy, i.e., a baby, can make their parents very happy, and such a child can go on to lead a happy, fulfilled life, in which case the accident was a good thing.

[@kspoo10_]

I _am_ cosmic junk ✨🌌🌠

[@fantasyreading5246]

I totally agree and the guilt is supposed to be because we were unwanted and we are supposed to be ashamed of that? That's just so abusive In my opinion and depressing 😕

[@stm7810]

It makes me even more in favour of abortion.

[@renanleandro5914]

Yeah, I don't understand why people like the professor from the course need to believe that humanity is somehow special, why does believing that you are cosmic junk is something so disturbing for them? What's wrong in not being special to the eyes of the universe? The universe doesn't give a fuck about us and we also don't need to give a fuck about what it thinks about us. We need to be special to one another, that's what truly matters, we ARE special to one another simply because we are all human beings.

[@cleverwitticismhere6922]

Wish I could say I heard something new here, but I can't. This is why I don't have religious debates anymore. I've refuted all this stuff a thousand times. If hell exists, it'll be me debating apologists for eternity while they refuse to further the conversation.

[@corvididaecorax2991]

Greg Koukl is a fascinating individual. He is a living example of the worst caricatures of Christian Aplologists, proof that such people do in fact exist.

[@onedaya_martian1238]

Bet he lives in a very homogenous upper class neighborhood and cooks a great barbeque. What's not to like ? Except the part when the dutiful wife brings out the desert and asks if you want to make some ancient murdered guy your lord and savior. Leave me with my poor atheist friends eating pringles, please.

[@rembrandt972ify]

@@onedaya_martian1238 But I like Pringles.

[@onedaya_martian1238]

@@rembrandt972ify Me too !

[@cnault3244]

@@rembrandt972ify Pringles are an example of something that was intelligently designed.

[@devinlyne199]

@@cnault3244 ?

[@OtakuJuanma2]

I kinda love the fact he says that if you're an atheist or don't believe in god, you'll have an existential crisis. It's true, many people do have those sorts of crisis, but that is a point AGAINST religion as I understand it. If humans are prone to feeling insignificant, to having crisis because of that, it means they'd be logically prone to collectively make up a divinity that makes us feel special.

[@OtakuJuanma2]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Ok.... So are you going to make a point for or against what I said? Because your reply as it stands is just "hi, I'm a Christian. Period"

[@AidanDaGreat]

Sorry about him. Please don’t judge us based on that vocal minority. Also, dude , if you talk about what you believe in such a manner; people will automatically assume that we are jerks that don’t accept reason. Talking to John, not the original poster

[@jungtothehuimang]

Could not agree more

[@OtakuJuanma2]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 "I've seen heaven and hell" Suuuuute you have.... If people could actually see faith locations like that, there wouldn't be a doubt. Also, it can't be "personal" if we're talking about the creation of a religions. That will always be a massive group, either coming up with a religion out of nowhere, or a higher power addressing them millenia ago. It can't be personal.

[@AidanDaGreat]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Aye, mate, I'm a Christian. Please actually talk to me instead of copy and paste. I wanna chat,

[@rektdedrip]

"We're just evolved creatures. We're the result of accident and chance." Honestly, I believe that makes us even more special than being handmade by some deity.

[@daseagod6127]

​@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Why would an omniscient all powerful being care if a couple of its weak and powerless creations belived in it? Does your god have such a fragile ego that it needs validation from its ant like creations?

[@lakshitathakur2302]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 sorry I’m Hindu 🙏🏼

[@masterwizivan1788]

I completely agree, but I was surprised he used the example of an unplanned pregnancy, is that not special? I'm sure plenty of people love their children even if they were from an unplanned pregnancy. Depending on the way you think it could make the child even more special because the parents wouldn't have had them if it wasn't for that pure chance

[@cp37373]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363calm down with the jokes this is serious business. Lmao

[@AnarquiaCookbook]

Also, "just" is such a fucking dumb pejorative for the fact that we beat the odds and came from literally nothing.

[@Sglagoomio]

Online Christians and Rage Baiters literally act so similar that I can’t tell which is which

[@SHCVoodoo]

"If some rocks fall off of a mountain... did they just fall? No, there has to be a faller. Rocks don't just *fall* off mountains. If a gust of wind blows, did it just blow from natural causes? No! There has to be someone there with a hair dryer or really, really big lungs! There has to be a blower!"

[@champiggyfrm_pig5271]

I mean there's always a "how", how did the rock fall ? By being pushed by the wind. How was the wind created ? Etc. until you can encompass all that there is. There is however no goal in the rock falling, it did not fall for a purpose

[@victoriousv5565]

But it did. It fell to decrease its potential energy(to go into a state with lower energy) and increase entropy

[@jibjibs9401]

@@victoriousv5565Are you saying there are natural explanations for how events occur??? No! All things require a do-er!

[@danhtran6401]

It's well known. For every action, there is a reaction...

[@bogosbinted8826]

I’m the blower 😘😜

[@NullStaticVoid]

A coworker at an old job was aghast to find out I was an atheist. She asked me how do people refrain from raping, robbing and murdering at will without a god in heaven to show them the way. So I asked her, is the only reason you aren't doing these things because you are afraid of god? She didn't bring it up again.

[@markgallagher1790]

That is the best shutdown I've seen M in years

[@seth5143]

Yeah, most of them use that same line of argumentation too. Pretty telling isn't it? I try to stay the fuck away from them for that reason because I don't want to be around them if/when they suddenly decide they don't believe in Christianity anymore and all bets are off. They're ticking time bombs.

[@oftenwrongphong]

One of my best friends (very religious baptist) confided that the fear of being caught is the only thing preventing his lovely wife from doing "bad" things and that she lacks empathy for others. He wondered if she'll ever see the light. I had to tell him she'll never see it, since 1 in 24 of us lack a conscience, according to what I've read. Just gotta accept it and be glad that she's afraid. Yeah, the deterrent (being religion or law) is necessary for some.

[@afqwa423]

It's a witticism I hear a lot and one I don't really care for, even as an anti-religious anti-theist who despises all forms of religion and superstition. I can't relate to whether or not Christians or other theists are driven by fear of God or hell or whatever. I've _heard_ this is true. And it seems like it's the reason they go door to door to "save souls." But it's not something I can see very directly nor have experienced for myself. But when a theist asks the whole rape/murder/pillaging question, what it does do is confirm my low opinion of their thoughtfulness, imagination and empathy. It tells me, in short, that they're blitheringly unintelligent and arrogant and that they never took a moment to consider alternative hypotheticals before opening their mouth to air their opinion. The emotion I feel here is _contempt._ And that word alone does not begin to describe the hatred I feel. Nobody who asks this question has any business posturing about their morality. Their morals are that of a dog's. These are people who spread conspiracy theories and persecute minorities because their in-group has patted them on the head or beaten them to encourage their behavior. I'm not taking shit from a person who can hardly be considered sapient. Thinking is a skill that can be developed, like any other. It's something you must do because you have to live with yourself and by yourself in your head. It takes no special equipment and takes no money. There are no excuses not to develop that skill. If you don't see me murdering, pillaging and raping but still feel the need to ask what stops me from doing so, then you have deep problems as a human being.

[@Calcanthite]

“If you need a god to tell you not to do those things, you were never a good person to begin with” was a sentiment I heard when someone I knew was confronted with the same question

[@CharleyA73]

I find the “if there’s a knock, there must be a knocker” argument so funny - like can you imagine this dude being on edge 24/7 because every time the house creaks he thinks there’s literally someone tiptoeing about upstairs and knocking shit over for funsies

[@einarabelc5]

I don't know what's more stupid, the assumption that other people are that stupid or the stupidity of thinking that makes us smart.

[@Aziara86]

I know, right? Tell me you've never lived in an old house without telling me you've never lived in an old house. Damn things creak and knock constantly.

[@impartialthrone2097]

My immediate though was that he only compares the big bang to things directly caused by the actions of a living organism. He doesn't compare it to a thunderstorm and say "ah-hah! The thunder must have a thunderer," because thunder is a completely understood natural phenomenon and it wouldn't serve his narrative.

[@medexamtoolscom]

Or as I have found out in the last few days, if there's a fedex courier, there's NO damn knock on the door or ring on the doorbell. They will just silently leave it in front of your door even if you're home so that it gets stolen. Fuck fedex. I certainly wish there were more knocks.

[@KeithLivingston]

@@impartialthrone2097 the wind must have had a 'winder'. That's why I'm in favor of changing some of the wording when I talk about these things. It makes it more difficult to personify, or create an anthropomorphism, or attribute intent to something. Instead of saying 'creation', maybe we should use something such as "came into being". "If the universe came into being, it must have had a 'came into beinger'."

[@clnsqr]

I haven’t even gotten two minutes in, and the fact that they say “produce a particular kind of person” really icks me out.

[@nikk-named]

What this video has taught me, is admitting to not knowing something is the greatest weapon you have in conversation in general.

[@haudace]

Trust me - it doesn't work if your interlocutor has no critical thinking and has no interest in constructive conversation. To some people, "I don't know" is an admission of defeat.

[@ChefMonke07]

@@haudace Which is sad because I consider admitting that we don't know something is the highest level of wisdom one can achieve.

[@nenmaster5218]

@@haudace Professor Dave Explains and Telltale do the Best Cult-Coverage on YT. They’re well worth checking out. But if we expand this to the blood-related Issue of Anti-Science and Science-Denial, not only Professor Dave coverin Frauds and Quacks but many Others come to mind that i wanna warmly invite you to watch: Sci Man Dan, Prophet of Zod, Hbomberguy, UpisnotJump.

[@Manimmut]

i have a friend that whenever i say i dont know to a Question says: why cant you never give a good answer?

[@nikk-named]

@@Manimmut yeah I hate when people do that...

[@JohannRosario1]

*There should be legal consequences for using the word UNIVERSITY without accreditation or authority, the same way a person is not allowed to use the word DOCTOR or claim to officially be an ENGINEER, when they are not.*

[@heckingbamboozled8097]

@@MikeRFrazier What a pointless reply

[@jeremysmith4620]

For a low, low price I'd love you to join Commenter's University (not nationally accredited) where you too can earn your Master's Degree in Postology or even your Doctorate in True Crime Criminal Justice through our exclusive "do your own research" system where you can simply watch a few quick videos to become an authority on anything.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

@@MikeRFrazier There are only consequences for graduates of Pedantry University.

[@garethbaus5471]

Given how it can sometimes be used in attempt to create I illusion of credibility and promote misinformation in cases like Prager U I can definitely understand why that would be justified.

[@garethbaus5471]

@@MikeRFrazier I mean non factual or diliberatly distorted claims used to manipulate people.

[@Ciurk]

I love that the mind's eye argument implies that people with aphantasia like me don't have souls and everyone else does

[@marknieuweboer8099]

Yeah - while nobody else has a soul either.

[@nangsanbhalangblah333]

Like the blanks from warhammer

[@alexfrost2799]

@@nangsanbhalangblah333 difference between Warhammer and real life: in Warhammer there is undeniable proof that the soul exists and it affects how humans operate. The soul (or lack thereof) affects things other than humans. It is actually tangible. No such thing has happened as of yet in real life. In reality, a person's feelings or bodily reaction are often mistaken as 'feeling with your soul'. We simply do not know enough to clarify whether a soul is an actual thing or just a construct created by religion. Hence why atheism is a thing now but is virtually extinct in 40k (among humans that is). A lack of concrete proof is typically why atheism exists.

[@Aiden-qo8op]

@@alexfrost2799it’s a game, it doesn’t show what would truly happen if people didn’t have souls

[@alexfrost2799]

@@Aiden-qo8op in-universe, it actually does show the difference between someone with a soul and without one. The point here is that there is no such evidence to prove souls exist in real life. Clearly you didn't understand the point of my comment.

[@Krikenemp18]

So if a tree falls on Koukl's house, he assumes a person knocked it down because the tree can't have knocked itself down? That's stupid. This guy has a masters?

[@Chris-hf2sl]

"This guy has a masters?" Only from the "university" that he founded and at which he appointed himself as a professor.

[@southofheck]

If a tree falls in the woods, and there was no hearer, was there a knocker?

[@NDHFilms]

At this point, the story of Jesus might more credible than any of these apologist's "I was at a dinner party with an atheist..." or "I was on a plane next to an atheist" stories.

[@frankwhelan1715]

Don't know, the knock on the door convinced me.

[@qwadratix]

My favourite is 'I used to be an atheist'.

[@stephenk.1997]

And the sad thing is even if the story is true and accurate in every way, so what. That’s one person caught off guard without prepared answers, not all atheists. What if the knock at the door was something else like wind blowing something against it. We can test door knocking hypothesis’s by just opening the door. We can’t yet test universe beginnings because it only happened once as far as we know.

[@MendTheWorld]

How about, “I was in a foxhole next to an atheist?” Nah. It’s not a credible scenario at all.

[@waltonsmith7210]

@MendTheWorld thats exactly the kind of unfalsifiable, anecdotal kind of argument the oc was talking about.Even if it was true,even if every single atheist in a foxhole temporarily became a believer when theyre scared for their life, it still wouldnt prove theres a god. It would be a meaningless data point.

[@エリー-q5q]

I liked the “knock on the door” argument, cause his explanation answers the wrong question. The problem to him is “did the knock happen by itself?”, but the dilemma is “how can you know who/what knocked the door without opening the door first?”.

[@Bogyway]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 In the short time I been on this world I have sinned and learned to be a better man. This mostly through the people surounding me. I am sure I could have learned worse when following bad companie. When reading the bible what is a book writen by humnan you do find good moral concepts and answares. Along a lot of sines. Also the christen history is paved with more bad then good it seems. The truth is in nature and must be discovered as it comes in varity. The book can only guide you. You might crave internal life as for me it is horror to just think about such a thing. When I could have a thing that does survive me I would hope it could be a thing what makes this planet more human to life on.

[@calixxaige1156]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I have a question in mind and I hope you don't see this as being rude, but do you go to heaven by just believing in Jesus? I mean example is: a former murder wants to change and he go to churches and believed in Jesus, but can you still go to heaven?

[@greyklein4154]

Y’know, I heard that Hitler was deeply religious. If your god is no gaoler to the faithful, then did your god truly punish this horrible man?

[@khangminh219]

@@calixxaige1156 I am sorry because i dont know about Christianity, so i cant actually answer your question. But if you want to find out how other religions deal with this, i will give my take on buddhism: There is a karma system. If you do bad things, you will get bad karma. If you do good things, you get good karma. It is a simple system, but an effective and also objective one. The system observe every movements of you, and you the consequences you deserve, in this lifetime, in afterlife, or many afterlife after that. The judge of hell (Hades Dai, hell king, i dont know the translation) will only use the karma to judge you. So a former murder will be punished for his crime, and his visit to temple will either reduce his karma/punishment, or provide a slightly better afterlife after he is done with the karma. Sorry for this long paragraph but not answering your actual question, i just want to tell other about my grandma's belief.

[@pedropereira1285]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 "God is Loving yes and the bible describes Him as a just Judge" -> How is he loving, when he let the holocaust happen. How is he loving, if he let the nazis kill millions. How is he loving, if he created so many desease. "God will bring them to justice" -> I know you want it to be true, but the sad part is: Its not. I know its a harsh truth, not everyone can take it. Accepting that we live in an unfair world, with injustice and evil everywhere is not easy. Thats why so many people convince themselfs that there's a god, and he's good, and that all the evil people will be punished after death. Its easier to accept that than to accept that the world is just unfair. "avoid this judgement simply accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and Repent of sin" -> Then how do you know hitler saw justice after death. He could have accepted jesus and repent his sins. "You break God's laws you go to hell" -> So if i lie to protect some1, i go to hell right? Since lying is a sin, doesnt matter what my intentions are. God is truly loving and good. If what is in the holybook, are the laws of God, then, i can say for certainty, that heaven has only God and Jesus. Everyone else is in hell.

[@ProbablyEzra]

The worst part of the soul argument, he makes it sound like people who can't hear, or can't see, or otherwise don't have a sense are missing a part of their soul and I cannot begin to imagine the amount of harm that idea has caused and will cause.

[@johnnym3071]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363Everyone knows only Mormons get into heaven

[@wesnohathas1993]

That point definitely won't get across for anyone with aphantasia either.

[@F0rgetful_Gh0st]

Honestly if I would have been told something like that a year ago I would have been sent into spiral of fear thinking I only have a partial soul and was broken

[@FrozEnbyWolf150]

They will definitely imply this about anyone who is disabled, neurodivergent, or LGBTQ+. You're made to feel broken or inferior, which is exactly what organized religion wants, because it's easier to manipulate you if you think something is missing that only the church can fulfill.

[@boggless2771]

​@@wesnohathas1993or gingers.... Lol jk. Just ask him to define soul? Then explain to him that he's talking about consiousness. And then have him explain why my dog isn't consious. Then my cat, then this gold fish. And then a worm. Then ChatGPT.

[@jp5520]

This is a great analysis of a tough subject. I agree with the use of, I don't know, as a valid response to interrogation of my ideas. If I wanted complete answers to everything, I'd make up a religion.

[@torrom9207]

“Tactics” aren’t to be used in a discussion, they are used when you want to “win” and not learn. The ideal outcome from a discussion or argument is both parties learning something and furthering their understandings

[@bigbucksspender]

I disagree, I think having tactics that you've thought about beforehand is a good way to be consistent and describe your position more accurately so that you can have a meaningful conversation

[@Biscotum]

@@bigbucksspender On the other other hand (where'd this third arm come from), when these "tactics" boil down to little more than "gotcha" questions, deflection and frantic goalpost moving, it's difficult to consider them as coming from a place of good faith, thus returning to the premise that they are intending to "win" and nothing more.

[@bigbucksspender]

@@Biscotum Yes but that's not all the time, if that's the purpose of those tactics then I agree they're bad but I don't think many people do that on purpose. The problem is with the people themselves doing that kind of thing, not with thinking about and making a plan for your argument beforehand

[@DerAlibi]

​@@bigbucksspender I'd argue that basic due diligence to ensure you can competently and coherently explain your position isn't a "tactic." A "tactic" in a debate implies some sort of exploitation of the logical process for the express purpose of winning an argument, which doesn't necessitate having a strong position of your own.

[@bigbucksspender]

@@DerAlibi Good point. I guess it comes down to how the word "tactic" is viewed, then. I view the word as a nuanced, not necessarily exploitative, way of improving something. For example, a tactical grip on a gun. You're not really maliciously exploiting anything, it's just a nuanced improvement for recoil control, maneuverability, etc. Though if, based on prior knowledge, you were to see the word as more malicious and combine that with the exploitation that the apologist's video is clearly doing (though it's debatable whether it's on purpose or not), then I understand where you're coming from.

[@sbushido5547]

"We're the ultimate unplanned pregnancy!" I honestly feel sorry for anyone born under those circumstances in his audience. People don't have less worth just because their conception was an accident, Greg. Nor does the universe have less worth just because there was no magic man pulling levers behind the curtain.

[@estinsidebottom]

And Even If There *Were* A Magic Man Pulling The Levers Behind The Curtain. How Would That Make The Universe Valuable? What Difference Does It Make? And Do They Not Find The Idea Of Your Purpose Being Decided For You Before You're Even Born Depressing/Dystopian? There's Just So Much Wrong With All Of It.

[@eragon78]

@@estinsidebottom Honestly, it would make it less valuable, because instead of being able to make your own decisions in life, you would be forced to adhere to his whims or you would be punished for all eternity. Your "meaning" in life would only be what that magic man has deemed acceptable for you, and you would be forced to live his wishes without being allowed to forge your own path as doing so would condemn you for all eternity. I find life much more meaningful since I can determine my own values and desires.

[@user-s3ts8my2x]

People value "value" and "meaning" too much

[@frenchtoast2319]

Pro life, right?

[@sardonicus1739]

@@estinsidebottom To me there being a god would make life and humans have less value inherently. Life would be less valuable because their belief in an afterlife makes this world just a tiny drop of water in eternity. Where if you're atheist this is likely your only life which makes every second precious because you know there isn't an eternity to live after your death, and this is it. I noticed atheists tend to value life more, where Christians tend to be caviler about death and killing people because they think, "God will sort it out." According to Chrstianity our entire existence was made so that God has someone to worship and praise them, and when you go to heaven you spend the rest of eternity endlessly praising god according to what it says in the bible about what happens in heaven, so your entire existence is basically just a tool to use for an egomaniacal being to feel good about itself by having some outside source say how amazing it is uncritically, and convert others to say the same. With atheism you're not trapped in that way. You create your own purpose and meaning which is usually a bit more satisfying than, "your purpose is to praise god." You can make your purpose to help make the world a better place for future generations instead or something like that which is a more productive purpose.

[@Steven-ki9sk]

The Christian professor got his degrees from a apologist diploma mill and the quality of his course reflects this. No one with a masters degree in philosophy from a real university would make such siIIy arguments

[@KopitioBozynski]

Sadly there are some that do but they're smart enough and payed enough attention to their classes that they can say it without coming out and saying it.

[@FelisImpurrator]

I mean, the degree is in Christian Apologetics. The clown shoes and nose are pretty much the first thing you see here.

[@philmcgee4591]

Very many high school kids can refute this

[@Daneelro]

But the basic issue is not the quality of his course. What we atheists need to understand is that most apologists never intended to confront our actual ideas: their real goal is to retain the faith of their followers and themselves in the face of the arguments and the very existence of atheists. For that, you do not need to engage with the actual arguments, because faith is fundamentally irrational, and to achieve the goal of protecting people's faith, it is enough to appeal to the irrational roots of their co-religionists. Sadly, I think Greg Koukl's apologist diploma was apt for his goals.

[@user-il9ze9py8c]

He got a degree to try to rationalize an irrational belief. You can't disprove a christian god any more than you can a hindu god. Doesn't mean either of them exist. He started with a conclusion and argues in loops and circles to support it. With zero evidence he still believes it, and if you aren't capable of letting go of a belief no matter how little evidence there is to prove it, you're not thinking about it rationally.

[@Michael-hs7pr]

He makes this entire argument that everything must come from something, but fails to understand that in turn that something must come from another thing.

[@canadaoi6005]

My favorite part of this was when he said we saw our mom in our soul. As someone who is unable to imagine things, he's just proven I have no soul. Love it. His examples are far too easily disproven to be useful in actual discourse.

[@-._.-KRiS-._.-]

And what happens to a person who goes brain dead for a minute before being resuscitated? Did they lose their soul for a minute? Does it comes back? If it doesn't, are they screwed for the rest of eternity?

[@joshuaa7266]

@@-._.-KRiS-._.- Pretty sure a lot of Christians believe the soul temporarily leaves the body, hence stories of visiting heaven. Exceptions like souls failing to return to a living body or people being born without souls probably just don't exist in their concept.

[@finx1582]

I can picture things in my mind's eye and hear songs in my head, but I can't willingly conjure up a smell, taste, or physical sensation. Do I get part of a soul or what? lol

[@songcramp66]

Wait, how can you not imagine things? That's possible? How can you plan for the future in that case?

[@rinny0386]

@@songcramp66 ikr I have a hard time understanding it but it's called aphantasia and my best friend has it. She thinks in words, concepts, and other non-visual things. Sometimes it hinders her creatively but she always has a work-around and she's still a very hands-on crafter. I however am a very visually imaginative person. All 5 senses and sometimes trippy stuff beyond them, vivid detail. But I consistently find her to be more well-rounded, considerate, and optimistic than me. We're both christian-raised atheists, though her christian upbringing was much more rigid than mine. I wonder... why would she not have a soul but I would?

[@cross8642]

On his point about guilt. “We feel guilty because we are guilty.” As a child (11 YO) in school I took part in a protest where after lunch, or recess for Americans, we refused to go back to class because the teachers after a child got hurt decided balls sports were no longer allowed. We had organised a sit down protest. As you can imagen the teachers were not happy. Long story short they didn’t tell our parents about this incident however they made us feel we had done something terrible. I thought we had done something really wrong and felt incredibly guilty. As an adult I now realise I did nothing wrong and feel proud that I stood up to authority. His argument about feeling guilty because I am guilty dose not work here because guilt is subjective. Something I felt guilty about at the time I am now proud I did. If anyone is wondering the protest worked because a few weeks later we were aloud to play ball sports again.

[@Demopans5990]

And that my friend, is how the CCP holds on to power. In order to enforce compliance, they don't need gulags, they just publicly shame. JWs use the same playbook, as do many others.

[@davidnichol4735]

It's called gaslighting. Strangely enough, it tends to get a pass where most other forms of psychological abuse don't.

[@TurinofDoriath]

Guilt is subjective based on time and place. To imagine guilt as an immutable state that is static across all time is infantile thinking.

[@lususnaturae881]

@@Demopans5990 "JWs use the same playbook" Except he was talking about gaslighting, you're talking about people receiving consequences for their actions. And the CCP does not act like """JWs"""", they murder the opposite, not call them out for their bullshit. Americans...

[@CoronaryArteryDisease.]

Cool story! I know for me there are a number of things that I was told to feel guilty about that now I am proud of doing as well.

[@damshek]

"Without God, morality would be relative!" "Doesn't the god of the bible approve of slavery, stoning unruly children to death and forcing women to marry their rapists?" "Sure, but those things were all considered ok at the time"

[@joecatt16]

Really good call out. The utility in Biblical Theology is a structured higher standard of morality, much like a company policy. When stuff is frustrating for the lower man, the boss can simply say, "Sorry, that's company Policy." It pacifies and structures a grouping of people toward the objectives of those on top of the hierarchy.

[@XXveny]

People before religion: Steal my possesions and kill my relatives, i don´t care :D

[@ekiM2K]

My belief is that morality IS relative. It is only the common conception of peers and groups that objectifies morals. If an entire isolated group believed that stealing, for example, was a good thing to do, it would be the objectively moral thing to do in their reality. The fact that an act could be perceived on either side of a moral compass inherently indicates that morality must be relative. Stealing is bad, because society as a whole has deemed it so. Relative morals in consensus create objective morals. The argument of God only shifts the goal post. Did society relatively define objective morals or did God create things with objective morality? Did the chicken or the egg come first? Answer to both, we don't know.

[@jhoughjr1]

@@XXveny Generally they didnt. They understood thats how the game was played,

[@jhoughjr1]

@@ekiM2K I would differentiate between morality entailing relativism, while not being relative

[@misfitanimations2787]

The problem is, he’s not proving any of the specifics, I could use all of his points to argue that the universe was created by a cat opening a DVD copy of Jurassic Park. The idea of something creating universe seems decently plausible, but the idea that that thing was specific enough to write an entire book about it. Pick a day of the week that everybody has to go into a building make a specific symbol and that looks like a human speak a specific language and detest other religions for doing the opposite is the part that’s pretty much impossible to prove, and therefore, since it harm other people, the part that most people have a problem with.

[@Qzopr1]

All I can say is: No wonder it’s a free course. Had it not been: Every theist who took it, would ask for a refund after the first conversation with an atheist. I liked this approach on your part. You put the time in. Good work.

[@therealatheistexperience7654]

Pay what you get

[@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT]

I am actually surprised that he never placed his content behind a paywall, or charge steep fees to attend a seminar or retreat. That's how successful grifters made easy money in the past. The sunk cost effect alone keeps the marks from facing the reality of mistakes and cutting their losses.

[@piercemchugh4509]

You couldn't pay me to take that course.

[@sfamerken12]

@@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT that's the plan for "lesson" 2.

[@skateboardingjesus4006]

I was expecting him to put in an effort for his apologetics. His "bumps" where nothing more than turds in the road. Juvenile reasoning and stock excuses, used by nearly all Christians. I know it's a free course, but I demand financial recompense.

[@Wh1teNoise616]

I saw someone in the comments say “the meaning of life is to serve and have a relationship with god.” If I exist just to serve and make one dude feel happy because he’s lonely all up in the clouds, then I don’t want to exist.

[@mushu_beardie2556]

same here. I don't want to serve some random dude, I want to cure AIDS! I want to make a bacteriophage therapy for tuberculosis! I think that's a way more noble goal than serving god by... *checks notes* being bored in church for 2 hours a week?

[@bobs182]

God is an abstract concept of humanity concretized. Belief in God is placing the concept above humanity itself.

[@c.m.p2943]

The christians teach that "We humans exist to serve god and enjoy him forever ". To serve someone i understand but to enjoy, that i don' t undetstand. Can soneone exlain please.

[@yurisei6732]

@@bobs182Then why does so much of the doctrine of God feature reprehensible text that advocates for harming humanity? Why do so many of the preachers of God advocate for actions that harm humanity? Why are so many of the followers of God so self-obsessed?

[@bobs182]

@@yurisei6732 People have given the concept of God meaning to itself making the concept the source of reality replacing reality itself as fundamental. As for the actions of religious people, they are simply acting out their tribal instincts which have been idealized as God. Followers of God are self-obsessed because God is a projection of themselves including their tribal group identity as humans are highly social/tribal. Tribes are us/them with the others known as heathens, pagans, heretics, blasphemers who deserve eternal torment for not joining them. The function of religion is as a tribal group identity/mythology in which adherents strongly identify and incorporate into themselves as part of their tribal instincts.

[@almcdermid9669]

I recently de-converted and was discussing the agnostic/atheist "issue" with my one atheist friend last night, and you expressing why and how you use the terms was exactly what I needed to hear. Thanks.

[@asagoldsmith3328]

Yeah even Carl Sagan fell for the propaganda

[@slashyell]

gnosticism deals with knowledge. knowlegde is a subset of belief. you can be an agnostic theist or atheist. it works both ways.

[@geomicpri]

I don’t understand. It’s obviously not that you simply don’t know & don’t care (or else you wouldn’t be on this channel). You have a positive belief about whether or not God exists, right? But it is nether that God exists nor that He doesn’t. So what is your positive belief? Or are you “sitting on the fence” (as he says he is not) waiting for proof one way or the other?

[@littlebitofhope1489]

@@slashyell Just put it in a sentence. Agnostic theist. I don't know god exists, but I believe he does. Knowledge is what we gain through experience and experimentation or testing. It is NOT a subset of belief. It derives from the realities of the world around us. Belief is all about conviction, not reality. This is mostly visible in religious settings, where the ideals are not tested but merely believed.

[@Stratosarge]

@@geomicpri I am atheist because until someone delivers credible evidence for an existence of god or gods, I have no reason to believe in such things, just like I have no reason to believe in the cosmic teapot, the wizard of Oz or an honest apologist.

[@UnawareGamingGamer]

The question I find most helpful to ask is “so we don’t know why X or Y happens, so what? So you chalk it up to an omnipotent, omniscient god? Why do you think, that out of all the gods humanity has ever studied, prayed to, believed in, you have found the one and only true one? Isn’t that claim inherently selfish? Religion is an amazing way for a person to discover who they are, how to be a better person, how to live their life in a way that benefits the world, but to assume that your god is the one true reason for everything that has ever happened, is just silly.

[@UnawareGamingGamer]

Oh and also, just assuming that something happened because god willed it to is completely adverse to actual progress. We will never learn anything about anything if we never study it, and we can never study it if we have preexisting ideas about where that thing came from.

[@MrStreaty122]

I laughed so hard when he started talking about experiencing the taste of strawberry or feeling fur or hearing music because it’s coming from the soul. No, dude… that’s a memory. You’re remembering the experience of those things XD

[@khlopzi]

Well first it comes from receptors and nerves, they conduct nervous signals to the brain where those information are stored

[@Bob-bs9ok]

Damn, I can't rember those things to such a level, guess I just don't have a soul :(

[@CaptainObvious0000]

aside from the fact that the existence of psychoactive substances disproves the existence of souls.

[@Nick_J_]

Also, strawberries suck, and if you are touching fur that has been stripped off an animal, you are in fact soulless

[@melaniewilson1742]

@@CaptainObvious0000 Lmao good point, I didn’t think of that.

[@VirtualBilly]

Science teacher: “This is what we know, because these are the things we’ve observed. Let me show you.” Religion teacher: “Just trust me, if you don’t believe what I tell you then you’ll burn forever!”

[@nicogarcia6003]

Praise the lord! King of Kings, Jesus Christ!

[@bruhbwoi3618]

@Dmitry Shilin but we do know all that stuff about life... and eventually we will know that stuff about quantum physics. In the past 100ish years we've gone from not having lightbulbs to having a probe over 14 billion miles away from earth. We are actually making progress with science. How much progress has religion made in the past 50,000 years? Zero. In maybe even 50 years we might even think quantum mechanics is simple compared to what new shit we've discovered.

[@cagedgandalf3472]

@@bruhbwoi3618 What he's trying to say is religion explains everything simply that's why it's true the good old occam's razor. What he's forgetting is that when a being just abracadbra the universe into existence, raises more questions than answers. Especially if this being that created the observable universe with billions of planets, cares so much about what you do while naked, who you're sleeping with and in what position.

[@cagedgandalf3472]

@Dmitry Shilin Religion teacher: Humans were made by blowing the "breath of life" into dirt. The universe was made by saying let there be a universe/light. Woman turns to a pillar of salt. Diseases is a curse from witches/God. Natural disasters is because of God being angry because of gay people and blasphemy. What's that? Are you saying magic is difficult to explain? Please have faith. Science teacher: *Don't fall for the argument from incredulity kids* It's fine if you don't trust science, reality is difficult to understand.

[@rocksfire4390]

@Dmitry Shilin correlation =/= causation. they are "christian's" because that's how they had been raised. yes i put christian's in quotations on purpose because if they were actual christian's (followed the book as is written) they would have to have a split personality to be able to function properly. science and religion are entirely opposites, one makes claims and proves that they are right and the other just makes claims with no proof and expects you to take it as a matter of fact. one is factual and the other is fictional.

[@beany69]

Christian: "What made the big bang? Nothing, that means it didn't exist! " Atheist: "What made God, then?" Christian: 👁👄👁

[@dryfox11]

“hE’s EtErNaL tHoUgH!!1!!1”

[@sikesuo]

i have an answer to that if you'r interested with proof

[@ornerybeefalo8387]

@@sikesuo provide away

[@sikesuo]

@@ornerybeefalo8387 so in the sikh scripture the guru granth sahib ji (i'll explain a little what it actually is, so there were messengers what we call gurus and there were 10 gurus god would send them words and they would write it down and ultimately the guru granth sahib ji were created) these words are not false at all if you would want me to elaborate i could. in those words it says 'karta purakh' which means god created everything and he had created himself. ultimately noone created him and he has existed before time itself and when there was nothing. i hope this helps and i would like you to do some reserch please dont look away from god without experiencing him and having a chat with him, all mental and physical problems will remain no more. hope this helps.

[@ornerybeefalo8387]

@@sikesuo how can god create itself if it needed to have existed in order to be able to create itself?

[@spicycreations2771]

i hate the the question of "well if god didnt exist where did all stuff come from" like ok? if god is the creator of all things, who created him? who is god's god? like if you wanna go down that rabbit hole god should have an intelligent creator aswell, right?

[@dflaming1371]

And moreover, why can't the answer right now be "I don't know". I have a sperm donor with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Not with Narcissistic traits, he's the whole cancerous package. One thing he does is absolutely fall apart, 300 lbs toddler style, when he's asked a question he doesn't know the answer to. "Daddy, what's the difference between a frog or a toad?" A question as simple as that could trigger him screaming at 8 year old me for HOURS. "Well why don't you know? Did you do research before bothering me! You're so lazy and stupid! I have to do everything for you! Why would you bother me with something that doesn't matter? Ask better questions that mean something!" Because he has to cover insecurity, which was apparently easier than "I don't know" ir "grab that book and let's find out together!" That, or he'd completely make something up, and if later it was pointed out he was wrong, que violence. The more I came to understand narcissism--which both the full disorder as well as indavidual traits are coping mechanisms for hiding insecurity, Moreso than a born personality, but once habitualized become personality--the more I saw religion. How did the universe begin? In religious circles you will be A. Shunned, discredited, or killed for even asking and pursuing that knowledge (see: every single scientist who's made breakthroughs in history) or b. Make it up. I, uh, the all important ME doesn't know tge answer, so I make it up--a cosmic, sentient force that's so vast YOU can't understand it made the vast cosmos you can't understand...so I've given an answer, I'm right, and if you question me again, see above shunning, discrediting and murdalizing. Yet, the question still isn't answered. In true Narcissistic fashion, this answer also provides more methods of manipulation. If you don't believe in this God that I TELL YOU to believe in, you will be tortured FOREVER. Now there's fear to cow you. God told me to do xyz, so questioning my actions is questioning GOD (my sperm donors prayers are always answered with the solution being what he wanted it to be, no matter how ineffective). Also you're mere thoughts can be crimes, so no even planning to escape. On and on Living under and later studying narcissism put the corporate world and every religious follower under a clear and bright light.

[@dflaming1371]

And moreover, why can't the answer right now be "I don't know". I have a sperm donor with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Not with Narcissistic traits, he's the whole cancerous package. One thing he does is absolutely fall apart, 300 lbs toddler style, when he's asked a question he doesn't know the answer to. "Daddy, what's the difference between a frog or a toad?" A question as simple as that could trigger him screaming at 8 year old me for HOURS. "Well why don't you know? Did you do research before bothering me! You're so lazy and stupid! I have to do everything for you! Why would you bother me with something that doesn't matter? Ask better questions that mean something!" Because he has to cover insecurity, which was apparently easier than "I don't know" ir "grab that book and let's find out together!" That, or he'd completely make something up, and if later it was pointed out he was wrong, que violence. The more I came to understand narcissism--which both the full disorder as well as indavidual traits are coping mechanisms for hiding insecurity, Moreso than a born personality, but once habitualized become personality--the more I saw religion. How did the universe begin? In religious circles you will be A. Shunned, discredited, or killed for even asking and pursuing that knowledge (see: every single scientist who's made breakthroughs in history) or b. Make it up. I, uh, the all important ME doesn't know tge answer, so I make it up--a cosmic, sentient force that's so vast YOU can't understand it made the vast cosmos you can't understand...so I've given an answer, I'm right, and if you question me again, see above shunning, discrediting and murdalizing. Yet, the question still isn't answered. In true Narcissistic fashion, this answer also provides more methods of manipulation. If you don't believe in this God that I TELL YOU to believe in, you will be tortured FOREVER. Now there's fear to cow you. God told me to do xyz, so questioning my actions is questioning GOD (my sperm donors prayers are always answered with the solution being what he wanted it to be, no matter how ineffective). Also you're mere thoughts can be crimes, so no even planning to escape. On and on Living under and later studying narcissism put the corporate world and every religious follower under a clear and bright light.

[@BurdieFromHell]

This guy would be so aggravating to debate with. He is the kinda guy who would close his ears, aggressively state his points, and then declare himself the winner because he couldn't make sense of the other sides points.

[@BurdieFromHell]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 No thanks, I'd rather not buy into dogma. I'm a registered member of The Satanic Temple...

[@alexandermaxcanjuga3368]

Yeah like all parents

[@deleuseneto7882]

In my country, we would call him a chess-player pigeon. He would ignore the rules, throw pieces in disarry and fly away thinking he won. I treat them as pigeons and avoid playing chess with one.

[@benlap1977]

Lol! Yep, that's often the case with people like him. They spout some huge multilayered nonsense so grotesque and self evidrntly false there's no possible comeback... and then see the silence of their "opponent" (cause they're interested in winning, not learning) as a victory, when in fact they demonstrated to everyone around how much of a douche they are, but everyone is too polite to say it out loud.

[@wayward5219]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363STOP IT

[@FrozEnbyWolf150]

"Ask them for their thoughts, rather than assuming you know them already, and when they speak, listen." This is sound advice for speaking to a member of any marginalized group. Even if you consider yourself a friend or ally, that individual knows their own lived experiences better than you do.

[@Brass319]

Absolutely! One of my favorite parts of the Episcopal Church (branch of Christianity) is that everyone is welcome, even one such as I. After all, the judgement of who's worthy of what is God's job, and it would be rude to tell him how to do it.

[@Brass319]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 repent for what?

[@Brass319]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I am personally honored to have witnessed all 8 comments/replies you have left

[@Brass319]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 in case you weren't aware, the prior statement was sarcasm.

[@cheezbiscuit4140]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363And the priests love your kids, like REALLY love your kids the sunday school teachers are just handsy dont worry about it.

[@LearnAboutFlow]

I always get confused when Christians say, "does God exist?'" because what they REALLY mean is "does their version of God exist?"

[@rdizzy1]

Well yeah, of course, as they believe this is the only god that could or can exist. In their minds/belief system there is only one god within the universe, and it happens to be theirs, lol.

[@LearnAboutFlow]

Also notice when you ask this apologist why is there Covid, why is there famine, why is there disease the answer is suddenly NOT his deity. HMMMMMM

[@moisesrosario9716]

Yeah religión ignore variables like, does god exist now? (existed in the past but not now or Doesn't exist now but Will exist in the future), does god existence it based on an specific religión (includes variables like the true religión existed but nobody Belive now, the true religión hasn't been created yet or There's not true religión because god is not based on religión), does god existence is even something we can interact with on a significant way, does god is actually worth worshiping(like if it even cares or not about worship and if god is good or evil, if There's something we can consider god is even powerfull enough to be consider actually god(like if just is a powerfull being to uncomprensible lovecratian being). This are some variables religious person don't even take in consideration.

[@LearnAboutFlow]

@@moisesrosario9716 Just the idea that a superior being somehow requires worship immediately negates the Christian argument.

[@rdizzy1]

@@LearnAboutFlow Yes, I would believe that any omnipotent, all powerful being would inherently be able to create morally perfect beings if he wanted to, so either A. He isn't all powerful B. He doesn't exist or C. He is a piece of shit and gets off on the suffering of his creations, and purposely created some humans to be "evil". Even if they try to blame it on Satan, God created Satan as well (knowing what he would become beforehand, since he is all knowing)

[@The_PhilosoFIST]

36:20 I have aphantasia, so I don’t visualize things. Guess my soul is defective 😢

[@marknieuweboer8099]

You simply don't have one. Nobody does, including Kouklekou and me. So cheer up. 🙃

[@AutisticlyRose]

That was the conclusion I had just come to, all of us who don't visualize things in the mind must be soulless according to thus guy.

[@Lowraith]

_"If Koukl wants to educate his audience on how to have real, productive conversations with atheists, he should listen to what atheists have to say about the claims he and other apologists make about us."_ But that's his secret: His "class" *isn't* about "teaching you how to engage with and defeat/convince an atheist" - It's reinforcing indoctrination to make the Christian student more resistant to the logical/reasonable arguments and counter-arguments the atheist is likely to bring to bear in response to their evangelism.

[@PopeGoliath]

This. Nobody's going to go out and convert more atheists after watching the course. The course exists as loss prevention for existing believers. It teaches them the mental gymnastics they need to dodge reason and logic and stay safe in their beliefs.

[@EskChan19]

Pretty much. It's just so that the christian student will say"Hah, typical atheist" when they debunk his watchmaker/carmaker/citybuilder/doorknocker/whateverthef analogy for the millionth time.

[@BlackEyedGhost0]

I once made the mistake of thinking apologists are attempting to use knowledge about reality to defend the reality of God. So long story short I'm a steadfast atheist now.

[@somethinginthepines]

Yup, as someone with a christian fundie for a father its literally all to confirm your own biases. I'm not even an atheist (not a christian either), his arguments just dont work.

[@IndigoWhiskey]

once you establish you have a nutterbutter who gets off on being confrontational just laugh at their beliefs to their face, as much histerics as you can manage with the wheezing short crazy rephrasing of what they say they believe as occasional punctuation to more laughing. apparently theyre that simple and cant cope emotionally with this. i had to forcebly regenerate my schadenfreude to pull it off but worth, so worth. yes i appreciate the want to get along but with the willingly at war on the subject you will never manage this untill you defeat that self assured confidence. have a nice day

[@ophelia3401]

He's so impressed with himself. It's very of putting. For just once I would like to hear an apologist say "I can't prove anything to you. It's all faith."

[@Hillmanh2832]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363bullshit

[@Hillmanh2832]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 how would you expect your religion to be true meanwhile there are billions of humans following other religions and what i've noticed so far is that all of the christian fanatics including you must be reciting some kind of bible passages and what i am about to tell you is that we are not afraid of all those things and we wouldn't respect people like you who oppress the belief on other without willingness of others.

[@LineOfThy]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363and yet you still do

[@nicholassgobero]

Which is crazy, because religion is all about having faith in something regardless of evidence

[@Thanks-bj1fo]

You gotta get out more. Many theists have said this.

[@awilson1998]

I call myself an Agnostic when it comes to a general God and an Atheist when it comes to religions. I will never claim a god does or doesn't exist but I will gladly argue that the god represented in religions is bogus.

[@MC_CatMaster]

That pretty much matches my view. There are so many conflicting religions that the odds of any one of them being right is almost nothing. Maybe there's a god or something, but no person is going to convince me of anything specific without some really drastic evidence

[@NathanThompsonBlueEyes]

Alright, do it, then. Let's see your evidence.

[@MC_CatMaster]

@@NathanThompsonBlueEyes Are you talking to me?

[@NathanThompsonBlueEyes]

@@MC_CatMaster No, to the OP.

[@mattbeckley9483]

@@NathanThompsonBlueEyes first you have to pull the dent out of your head nate

[@jamoke123]

We're wired to ask "why" things exist, but we should be asking "how." "Why" assumes there's an intrinsic "purpose" or "meaning".

[@marknieuweboer8099]

I totally agree.

[@Cajek2]

9:32 "Hey Atheist: Explain all of existence or I win."

[@LarsFaut-fj5zp]

This would have been a funny comment if it wasn’t so true.

[@Harker777]

You introduce God and complicate the problem. Think logically and you'll find flaws in your thinking. That shouldn't be the question though, as it's you who has the burden of proof and you have no proof. Substituting 'faith' for proof does not count.......so explain to me how God came about, what he made the universe from, why an expanding universe, why Jesus failed dying for our sins....why not just make the universe with us on it instead of waiting billions of years before man arrived and when he did, it took him hundreds of thousands of years to become the man of today. You see people discount scale and time and get confused when confronting issues I've made above , just as a starting point.. You can't explain God. Stop pretending.

[@Cajek2]

@@Harker777 the theist having the burden of proof is exactly the right way to approach theological conversations

[@Harker777]

@@Cajek2 No it's not. I believe in fairies and you don't ...yet you have to prove to me that they don't exist? Illogical. Even then, which god do I have to prove doesn't exist? All of them? No one can prove God exists therefore the theist (pick your religion) has to use all sorts of word games in order to endeavour...and endeavour only, that the God of their faith exists. This myst be obvious to clear headed people.

[@Harker777]

@@Cajek2 Secondly, there'd be no reason for the term atheist, if it wasn't for those pesky theists. :)

[@alex_squeezebox]

Reminds me of the Richard Dawkins quote “We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”

[@Alresu]

Thanks, this one gave me a laugh. :)

[@duchstitneho]

"Gods" in which people believed and believe (like Thor, Krishna, etc.) do not meet definition of "God". Philosophicaly speaking, if there's a God, it's only one God.

[@Alresu]

@@duchstitneho Disagreed. There are philosophers that see and saw it that way, but there is no unified opinion. Philosophically speaking we don't know.^^

[@duchstitneho]

@@Alresu if we discard metaphysics, then yes, we can't know

[@Alresu]

​@@duchstitneho Why should we have to discard metaphysics for that?

[@megantunila1444]

"Maybe we feel guilty because we are guilty." is one of the ideas that really turned me away from Christianity. I have anxiety. I feel guilty about everything because my brain chemicals are imbalanced... I am not actually guilty...

[@krizilloo2538]

We all say things that hurt other people, sometimes to the core. We all neglect to handle people with care, especially those closest to us. One careless sentence can plunge another into a downward, life-wrecking spiral, causing a ripple effect along the way. Here our guilt is justified. One example of the dark things humans do. Meanwhile, I hope you are able to get help for your brain issue. Feeling unjustified guilt all the time sounds exhausting.

[@ChristianF15cher]

That’s how cults work. They break you down so that you can be more easily manipulated.

[@jlettizard6465]

@@ChristianF15cher yes, that’s what cults do. Christianity doesn’t do that though. We are all sinners, yes. All guilty in the face of God. But Jesus came and died for our sins so that, if we believe in Him, we should die to our sins and be reborn in the spirit rather than the flesh and have eternal life. Having accepted Christ, anxiety, stress, hate, bitterness, and the like are replaced with peace, love, patience, and strength. Cults take Christianity and distort it. It’s man-made making it man-centered. Being made by man, it’s flawed like man.

[@Nomusicincluded]

@@jlettizard6465 Except this is untrue. Christianity does do exactly that. Claiming that accepting christ will change negative emotion to positive is the exact gaslighting you claim your religion doesn't do. It forces people who continue to feel negative emotion to question their faith and thus perpetuates continue self doubt and negativity. You post on here with such confidence yet everything you've said is exactly what every cult member would claim. If it walks like a snakeoil salesman and talks like a snakeoil salesman... p.s. your no true scotsman is also tiresome

[@Ealsante]

Consider *why* they always want you to feel guilty. It's because guilty people are, on the whole, obedient people. Who should they be obeying? Well, the people who put the guilt on them, of course.

[@xlaxxers5019]

well, the problem is that Christians dont believe because of love for sky man. They fear punishment and hope for a reward.

[@AJeziorski1967]

"A big bang needs a big banger" is a statement that could only come from someone who's never considered the fact that causality is entirely dependent on the flow of time, and that our perceptions are limited by the fact that we're three dimensional creatures who perceive time as flowing, out of our control, at a (more or less) constant rate. While my understanding of cosmology is fairly superficial (my degree's in engineering), from what I've read and understood, the Big Bang didn't just bring space into existence, it brought space-time into existence. Thus, to contemplate what came "before" the big bang and caused it seems kind of a meaningless question. Once you get into the idea of time as a fourth dimension that we have a limited perception of, then you get into concepts that are literally beyond our capability to visualize - we can only model them mathematically and create simplified approximations of them in our imaginations. An awful lot of what Koukl is saying suggests either that he is entirely unaware of ideas like these, or he's simply assuming (probably correctly), that the people he's trying to win over will be.

[@ZoraTheberge]

I think the movie Interstellar was the first time I understood Einstein’s theory of relativity. Time is just how you perceive it based on how you are passing through space.

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

The "causality" exists outside the spacetime they created so thus must exist in dimensions greater. Physics tells us just two or more dimensions of time gives us an uncreated "causality" one with a length and another with a width. So the logic is still there for a first cause. Time was an effect of the cause. Why would the cause be predicated on the effect. It wouldn't. That argument is redefining what "god" is to be bound within and by his own creation. It's the whole who created your creator argument. Except it's only relevant in the reverse to the naturalist. Who created your creator the universe? Space time theorems tell us the big bang is it. There was a finite start, no infinite cyclical universe. Multiverse is also bound by this. So the need for the causal agent remains thus who created your creator the universe?

[@yecril71pl]

Reverse all the arrows and you will get a "small plop". Who will have caused this? You. The problem is, you cannot do it. But, by the returning worlds theorem, you will get the "small plop" anyway (expected long after the thermal death though). Does the small plop needs a small plopper? If it does, is it Poincaré? Where can I find the nearest Poincaré church to offer my tithe?

[@AJeziorski1967]

@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep OK, I'm a little confused by your reply - it may be that this kind of forum is inadequate to explain the things you're trying to say. So let's focus on one thing. "Cause and effect" is a sequence of events - cause comes before effect. If there is no time, then there is no such thing as "before", so there is no concept of causality. Time came into existence with the big bang, therefore asking what "caused" the big bang seems to be a meaningless question. If you're a physicist (or any physicists out there), perhaps you can clarify this point for me?

[@AJeziorski1967]

@@yecril71pl "Small plop"? I thought it was supposed to be a "big crunch"? :)

[@wizarding4]

“The bing bang needs a big banger!” Or in other terms, “what made the Big Bang?” My response: “Well what made god?” “He’s eternal, so I don’t have to use logic or reason to defend myself.” “But I do?” It’s a two way street buddy.

[@sapphicsapphire82]

Seriously! I’ve thought about this a lot. Assuming the Christian god exists, where did he come from??

[@leguanpercy4961]

@@sapphicsapphire82 he is omnipresent and has no beginning or end, according to christians.

[@granienasniadanie8322]

@@leguanpercy4961 But universe had to be created, kinda hypocritical.

[@logangustavson]

Why does the universe have to be created? If you grant the Christain God didn't need to be created, then why must the universe have to been created? Its silly that some Christians point at the supposed absurdity of believing that the universe didn't need to be created but see nothing wrong with the idea of God not needing to be created.

[@granienasniadanie8322]

@@logangustavson because it would have ran out of fuel by now, but it doesn't mean there's a god.

[@sava-smth]

There's nothing more comforting for me than feeling of my insignificancy on a cosmic scale

[@sava-smth]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 if your god doesn't exist heavens are equally closed for both of us, no matter how hard you pray. And it sure looks like your god doesn't exist, go figure

[@Mariwend]

@@sava-smth Biblical bullshit means nothing to someone who doesn't blatantly believe a book that's been hidden copied and modified over generations. Even if the bible was once an actual divinely inspired grace unto the world, it isn't now.

[@somo4227]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363what is the point of getting into heaven

[@sava-smth]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 define nothing looser

[@sava-smth]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 yeah sweetheart for society to function it needs rules thats why IN SOCIAL SPECIES such as humans these rules evolved)) if they didn't, we wouldn't be social species))0) just as road rules - they weren't implied once and for all, and there were times when there was no rules exept for general hope that drivers will figure it out. And people have been hurt! And because of that, things that cause the most harm, are forbidden! And it isn't stopping everyone from breaking the rules, but it sure stops majority, that is, in a grand scheme of things, good enough for human population not to die out

[@Beenie-Desu]

He’s basically teaching a class on how to manipulate people. As an ex-Christian I’ve seen it a million times. They’re always talking about “tactics” on talking to “unbelievers”. The way they talk, who they choose. It’s all a factor. Also, one of the worst for me, using good deeds as a tool to evangelize, instead of doing it just because they want to do something nice for someone. Everything is just a chance to share the gospel. Not about the person struggling. They’re also easy prey.

[@styrofoamsoldier]

Yup, it feels yucky to be in the receiving end too. I used to hang around pentecostals and some of them have pulled this after I had been out of the church for a good while. It’s almost like people who abandon faith have actually spent more time thinking about this than the ones who just believe.

[@Fiona-68]

I'm a 54 year old lady and I am a closet atheist. I was a Christian for many years and many people in my family including my husband still are which makes it impossible for me to come out any time soon but just to let you know I truly appreciate your channel and articulating exactly what I would if I could. God bless 😂😂 LoL.

[@thefaithfulchristian2035]

I hope and pray all Atheist will watch this movie just one time it is based on a true story The Case for Christ An investigative journalist and self-proclaimed atheist sets out to disprove the existence of God after his wife becomes a Christian.

[@ardaybeluday2444]

@@thefaithfulchristian2035 no one here is interested in religious propaganda.

[@derpfaddesweisen]

@@thefaithfulchristian2035 I'm a christian myself, but this book/movie is horrendous. It is so onesided and i don't believe a word of the authors claimed goal to disprove christianity. He only asks the most conservative scholars, never questions their answers. It is obvious, that he arrives at the exact conclusion he wanted to arrive.

[@bartduynstee1577]

and there is nothing wrong with you saying "god bless", as it does not mean anything else but a wellmeant wish to others. religion has provided us with certain terms and words which are soo embedded into society, that they are just used as if. saying OMG or Hell no are further examples, which dont really have the original meaning anymore.

[@bartduynstee1577]

@@thefaithfulchristian2035 theists are way more concerned with atheists than the other way around. atheists dont go door to door, dont stand on streetcorners shouting out the promised land of atheism. its only when it comes up, that we take position and theists cannot stand that we are not that concerned about your stories

[@rickgrivera]

I literally shouted out "Holy S***!" in disbelief when he casually said "This is why we can gas termites but not...". I cannot with this version of Christianity.

[@Killer_Kotomibro]

Seriously, that was just zero to WHOA in 2.5 seconds. Kind of tips his hand too because the only way someone could equate the two is a disregard for the worth of anyone not in his own in group on the level of seeing non-christians as less than human. Creepy.

[@julietfischer5056]

I heard a 'j' just before he was cut off. Is Koukl a Holocaust denier in the bargain?

[@rickgrivera]

@@Killer_Kotomibro And it's the same danged God is the thing! And yet still you get the Blood Libel and centuries of hatred. Mind boggling.

[@M4x1m1l14nn]

@@rickgrivera Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Danton, Lenin, Sanger, Than Shwe, Chávez, Stalin, Zemin, Mengele, Mao, Kim Il Sung, Ceausescu, Honecker, Castro, Pol Pot, Broz Tito, Milosevic, Maduro, Xi Jingping and Mussolini oppressive, sadistic, democidal atheists who, collectively, murdered hundreds of millions of helpless men, women and little children? #AtheistChinaLiedAndPeopleDied

[@rickgrivera]

@@M4x1m1l14nn I... don't see how that's relevant to the fact that Greg Koukl-a Christian apologist and person whose theology one is presumably supposed to emulate-basically just asked why it wasn't OK to exterminate certain people. Specifically a group of historically oppressed people who barely survived a genocide. Are you one of those folks who troll youtube comments that don't agree with your worldview with whataboutism and other derailing tactics? I mean, you do you, but there are better hobbies.

[@shinaikouka]

As someone that was religious for my teens and about half of my 20's, I found the snippets of Koukl's videos to be very frustrating as time went on. I've got a number of religious friends and I've had conversations with them about religion over the years, so I've had to deal with some of these notions before. The two biggest things that came to me were... 1. Having to explain the unknown. 2. The obsession with needing to feel special. Number two is probably the one that frustrates me the most though. As an agnostic atheist, I've had people ask me, "If there's no Heaven, then what's the point in living?" (or something like that). Part of me doesn't really know what to say, because I don't see the need to realize some ultimate lifelong goal (i.e. going to Heaven) to make my life mean something. I guess you could say it's like that saying, "it's about the journey, not the destination". I've also had people ask me about why should you be good without a God to judge you. That's another somewhat weird question for me, because being good is just a facet of society.

[@josue1996jc]

yeah, it is frustrating, but i think you got it rigth. the first one is tricky tho, because, the unknown is scary, in spanish we say "mas vale malo conocido que bueno por conocer" that means " i'ts better something bad that you know than something good you don't". you dont really have to explain the unkown all you have to do is explain something well known and explain how we used to "know" it worked before, like the milky way, the thunders, why is the sky blue. Then you tell them "it took us 4000 year to figure that out and now he see it so simple. it was always there, and the answers to what we dont know now are there for us to discover too"

[@AbandonedVoid]

But the journey sucks. Life is absolutely awful. I can't blame people for wanting there to be some kind of reward for pushing through all of this.

[@josue1996jc]

@@AbandonedVoid i disagree, the journy SUCKS youre rigth, but it doesnt have to always suck. it put myself as an example, i was studying medicine in venezuela my home country, when i was about to graduate, the goverment tries to incarcelate me and a lot of other medicine students for helping wounded people in the manifestations. i had tu run away to brazil, i've been living here for 3 year strugling to find job, and the college sistem here doesnt really help with fisnishing college. no time for a girlfriend or to make a family because of all the shit going on rigth now to me. and here i am, still figthing for what i want, because i know that i can make it work, all i need is 1 job, and find a way to go back to college, 8 years and i know i can make life worth it. is not a competition but if you got it worst than me, then let me tell you, you can make thing better, just dont give up.

[@SeaJay_Oceans]

"If there's no Heaven, then what's the point in living?" Love Life, Enjoy Existence, Have fun while visiting planet Earth for a few decades. A lot of confusion is erased when people stop using the generic word god. The Bible says God is Love. So, Love is God. Love LOVE, love all beings, love your self, love enemies and create new friendships. Loving Relationships replace Religious Rituals. The Good Samaritan story has no mythology, only empathology. It's a paradigm shift away from illusions, and towards compassion.

[@Nazinsky]

@@AbandonedVoid It's terrible, but I think that can also give people the reason into believing a God doesn't exist as well. I personally don't believe in a God.

[@WolfenRyujin]

If memories are stored in the soul... what is dementia? Does headtrauma, have the ability to hurt your immortal soul? I'd love for him, Koukl, to explain this.

[@puppieslovies]

If I were to assume, I would think the tempting explanation would to be to say the soul is still there, but your injury prevents you from expressing it. Of course, this is also untestable and silly, but that makes sense given his position

[@WolfenRyujin]

@@puppieslovies But at the same time this would mean that my sickness/injury can lead to me "sinning" and as such keep me from heaven. This position gets more ludicrous the futher you go with it.

[@puppieslovies]

@@WolfenRyujin one possible way to rationalize that would be to say you were not sinning in your heart of hearts, it just looks like it outwardly. After all, we do consider mentally ill people who would be guilty of a crime to be innocent in many cases. I think that would be the easy parallel to draw.

[@WolfenRyujin]

@@puppieslovies Technically, sure. But either way, as you already stated...not testable.

[@kidwolf0015]

As an agnostic (no, I'm not "on the edge" like the misunderstood definition that Drew pointed out but rather very firmly planted in "neutral" views of pretty much any possiblity), There is a really weird, well-documented phenomenon known as "terminal lucidity" that might produce an answer to the whole "does brain injury hurt the soul"... Not exactly a "proof" but it's still weird. Basically, there are cases where right before a dementia patient dies they suddendly regain most if not all of thier cognitive abilites and memories back. Unfortunately, this might cause a false hope of recovery because terminal lucidity generally lasts no longer than a week (usually 1 to 2 days) and then the patient dies within a week after it. The question is how this is physically possible when this temporary state of lucidity is seemingly *caused by total destruction of the brain* ? Like even medical experts currently have no clue what's causing it. Could it actually be thier soul "defying" the physical boundry of dementia? (Yes, I realize how crazy that question is... but at least it's SOMETHING on thier side, right?)

[@Eidlones]

I really don't understand why some people find the concept of your life not having a predetermined purpose, horrifying.

[@ibizenco]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Why do we "need" to? What does "God" want, in the end? What is God's final and ultimate wish? That we believe? Then why not show himself to everyone all over the world at the same time? There is no god - certainly not the good and loving god from the New Testament who let his son/himself being murdered by us to free us from our sins. The absurdity. (The god from the Old Testament had every newborn in Egypt murdered, and like a real mafia don he didn't do it himself, but he had two angels do it for him... angels that needed to see blood on every door that they had to pass... right). There is no chance in heaven or hell that I would ever worship the god from the Old Testament.)

[@gavinboot4810]

So those babies killed by Hamas was "their gard given purpose in life"",,yeah ,right,,,,,

[@citizenvulpes4562]

It's because they want someone else to do all the work for them "why care if everything is already figured out"

[@kartikpintu]

They just need someone to blame for their shortcomings. "God made me this way, hence i am this way, don't blame me if I accidentally offend you."

[@wishingwell_333]

maybe it's not about that but honestly i can get it as someone who is going thru like a chronic existential crisis. it is weird how everything is pretty meaningless. even the way you're born and die is jus kinda random and that is weird to me. i mean i don't even feel bad or like im missing anything by not having a purpose bc it's jus sort of the truth without any deeper meaning lmao

[@fadingfrost2617]

This explains why the class is free. I'd be quite mad if I paid to hear these junior high level responses.

[@joshuaa7266]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 You're a little ahead of yourself there, before you start advertising heaven you need to prove it's real. Nobody is interested in a product that doesn't exist.

[@Evelyn80264]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 how long a day do you take to comment on youtube? because you've been commenting on this video alone for months. why dont you do something useful like charity work or work a second job and donate the money, instead of commenting bible quotes to people who are entirely uninterested?

[@joshuaa7266]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Sorry, but there are loads of religions and they all have people who claim with absolute certainty that their experience says their religion is right. Unless I'm supposed to value your word more for some reason (I don't) I can only conclude they all have equal chances of being right. Edit: grammar

[@uolocur9356]

​@There is none Good but God John 3:16, Rev 3:16 that sounds very similar to what my religious schizo cousin would say. Im going to guess you should probably be medicated. Hopefully you've gotten help with these hallucinations.

[@ailospjellok7475]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 if god is good why does he not give innocent children chances? why does he let them die before they are born or to sickness or wars? i have also seen jesus, heaven and hell in my dreams and jesus was just a pretentious cocksucker who doesnt care for what uncontrollable situation you are in, just do what he says no matter how nonsensical they are and you wont be given shit

[@Worthless-t8x]

I'm only 14 minutes in and I have to hit pause because I'm getting eye strain from eye rolling.

[@dem4christ04]

The most honest answer is "I don't know". Well done.

[@charliepershall5956]

Christian's Basic Principles Are Deceit How is it that you successfully deceive those in other nations to worship your Imaginary Mythical Fantasy Gods? And then go to war for the nation you worship. And kill those members of your own churches? The Basic Of Justice It is do unto others as you would like to be done unto you. The Basic Principle Of Christianity It is deceitful and far from Justice. To sentence and executing an innocent man for the crime of all humanity. What Honest person would let your neighbor be executed for your own crime? Evidently a Christian would. However, you all will face your own consequences, for your corruption and crime. You will not pin it on an innocent man. You all will harvest what you plant. And Christianity also promote Cannibalism by a ritual that they pretend they are eating Jesus's flesh and drinking his blood. The Great Creator performs Justice. You all will face your own consequences for your corruption and crimes. You will not pin them an innocent Man. Truth Is Existance Truth is All That Truly Exists. Other Than Truth there is Just The understood Concept of An Absence. Lies with intent to deceive or not is fantasy. Lies remain in the nonexistent realm. Nothing Can Survive Singular It is only in a huge Complex Mass form can anything survive and succeed. The Great Creator and the Spirit Energy Source, Its Is Science, it is not Religion. Religion is Fantasy. The Great Designer and Creator, The spirit Energy Source, Matter, Knowledge, Energy, Time and Space Has Always Existed. All are Without Beginning or end. Beginning and End only reveals an absence. Honesty and understanding is the only true belief. Without honesty and understanding we do not know what to believe. To accept other’s opinion of the truth without proving it to yourself; it is being deceived it is not believing. We must understand to believe. Truth will solve all our problems before we create them; and ignore or reject the truth; problems will multiply all by themselves; those problems will need no help. Have a great and a meaningful life if it is at all possible. Just whispers, of the Spirit of Reality.

[@mpbootcamp7009]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Your silly posts dont take into consideration that some of the most fervent atheists are ex-Christians. We know the BS that you spew, why you spew it, and your whole script. There is nothing you can say that will surprise us or make us fall for it again. For me personally, it wasnt even science that made me turn my back on it. It was reading the Bible itself and realizing that I was "one of the baddies" for supporting a genocidal God who did not fit in with the "loving God" that I was sold initially. I got to the point where I didn't even care if God was real or not because I would have preferred hell over worshipping a being who delighted in the suffering of his own creation. I have proof that God (the Christian/Jewish God, at least) is not real: If that being described in the OT were real, with his temper and power, no one would be left on the Earth. A God like that would be far too volatile and anti human to allow his own creation to exists.

[@S.D.323]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363three words: copy and pasting

[@IJustSpin]

@@S.D.323 Ikr, like they want me to read the bible while writting one

[@axl256gamesx7]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363look I think i rather have hell than heaven with all the extremists up there They (hell and heaven) have literally swapped places after a while

[@gatorboymike]

Christians: "We can explain everything." Also Christians: *don't explain anything*

[@gatorboymike]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Actually, the one word that sums up the Bible is Trump. Or murder. Or retarded. Those are synonyms.

[@muchotexto4248]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Okay so, God microwaved a guy to discharge his wrath (a sin) so we can pay for our mistakes (that he allowed to happen because he made us in a way where we mistake) our mistakes being common feelings created by our enviornment and your source is that we don't own the truth and therefore you do

[@muchotexto4248]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 ah. who created crime though?

[@nebula_unauthorized3093]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 all that sounds cultlike and controlling

[@wontcreep]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 the eternal fire, idea of neverending, infinite torture, you are telling me is justice what exactly is justice to you, listen, this is why i want to go as far away from religious people as possible, there is nothing more immoral than your belief, because infinite torture is beyond the worst fantasy of a sociopath

[@CombinedProductions0]

I love this "you can experience all five senses using your soul" thing. I'm incapable of visualization for psychiatric reasons, so does that mean I have no soul?

[@gavinaustin1146]

Some call it aphantasia, Christians call it "soulless."

[@Name-ru1kt]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 first please change your name to something shorter. It fucks with the comments when anyone tried to respond on mobile. Second don’t promote your religion on a atheist channel. Its a recipe for disaster Third: if your going to promate your religion let me offer you some guidance. Bring up a point from the video time stamped then say the flaw in his reasoning or try to further back up the point made. Just stating something will never give you anywhere if it has no context or backing to it Like if I say I believe the gaint spaghetti monster created the universe means nothing. Just as yours here. Now if I brought if some real life examples to prove that in fact the spaghetti monster did do that now were getting somewhere.

[@dc_maru]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 why must you use scare tactics to try and promote your beliefs?

[@pythonbbx9075]

@There is none Good but God - bro i’ve seen you post this exact comment before. Stop copy + pasting random crap that has nothing to with the original comment. Nobody here wants to hear it; but if you must insist on trying to convert, at least use your own arguements instead of copy + pasting someone else’s from some random christian website.

[@Anankin12]

@@dc_maru because that's what it's keeping them good, the fear of punishment. No person doing good because they're forced to is actually good. If they actually read and understood what they believe in, they would know that such things automatically exclude them from the Kingdom of Heaven (There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18) But alas, proselites almost never actually understand what they preach, so there's no surprise there.

[@christicrochets9011]

*How to have a conversation with an atheist* Atheist: Yeah, I’m an Atheist. Christian: Oh, I didn’t know that. I’m not going to interrogate your belief with hostility since belief or lack thereof is a private matter, and as a Christian, I value human connection over dogma. Anyway, what’s your favorite ice cream flavor?

[@EarthPhantomTS]

3:45 As someone who's neither a Christian, or even a monotheist (belief in only one god), *nor* an atheist, I just want to throw this out there: why is it that every Christian apologist assumes *their* god is the only one possible? Why do they think everyone who doesn't believe as they do, is atheist? Cause those definitions clearly betray Christian privilege.

[@norrecvizharan1177]

Think it's probably natural human nature to have a "us versus them" tribalistic mentality when it comes to the things they heavily associate themselves with. It's a tendency that you can witness in even simple stuff like sports or media fandoms: people just love going "the thing I like/agree with is better than the rest, and everyone else is illogical for not being into it".

[@EarthPhantomTS]

@@norrecvizharan1177 Yeah, that might be at least part of it. I imagine that, tbf, another part of it is that they see so many other Christians in their day-to-day lives that it's kinda the "default" for them. Like it's just Christian and non-Christian for them. They don't have too many opportunities to even think about the fact that "non-Christian" can comprise many diverse groups.

[@mk1st]

I like to ask Christians who think this way to pull up "Creation Myths" on Wikipedia and then explain to me why the Christian version is the correct one over the MANY stories out there.

[@somethinginthepines]

I dont know about every christian, but my fundamentalist father believes that all other gods are false idols or demons. Which is stupid and offensive. Christians in general tend to hold themselves above others.

[@daniel_rossy_explica]

OverlySacasticExplanation (the KZbin channel) has a video on the history of early Christinanity that may explain that to you.

[@crimxe]

"How do you atheists sleep at night?" Me: Peacefully.

[@floppa_gamer1111]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 So your saying that im going to be punished for not believeing in a non provible thing. bullshit detecter off the charts

[@floppa_gamer1111]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 and a real god would not make a infinite punishment for a finite crime

[@crimxe]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 If God/Jesus were good people, they wouldn't send good people who respect other beliefs to hell just because they aren't Christian.

[@floppa_gamer1111]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 then why did god make humans without a way to prove god OR make evil in the first place also "Hell is simply a place where you are separated from God so you are separated from everything that is good ,things we take for granted like the ability to breathe, rest or have our feet planted on the floor." so does that make jumping unholy or going to space a sin?

[@floppa_gamer1111]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 stop

[@salembookworm]

I am really struggling with my faith at the moment and somehow youtube recommended me your videos and at first I had a knee-jerking reaction: "How dare you criticizing my religion" and then I started to listen.

[@marknieuweboer8099]

This staunch atheist wishes your strength.

[@OuchieWahWah]

I hope you manage to escape that struggle wether you get your faith back or become an atheist.

[@AidanDaGreat]

I feel ya man. Do what you know is right. And I love ya. :)

[@MrJhonbaker]

I struggled for much longer than necessary - I hope you do not. a few years of Christian indoctrination at an important juncture delayed my ability to enjoy life. Doubt is good and kind - Doubt can also be trying and crisis inducing. I hope you can soon accept where you stand, no matter where you stand.

[@Whiskey.T.Foxtrot]

I'm an Atheist and get religious YT recommendations frequently. I start watching some but they usually drive into the ditch with a fallacy or unsubstantiated claim in short order. Good luck on your quest. Ask yourself this...are the arguments and claims supported by credible evidence?

[@daniellebrooks3670]

His arguments sound like he came up with them in the fifth grade and then never learned anything more outside of his echo chamber.

[@seansorlie3231]

I love how he seems to completely dismiss social contract/pressure and empathy as a reason behind morality. People who are raised to understand their impact on others and society are more likely to be seen as a moral person while those who are not... are less likely. Evolution has instilled in us the best way to survive which is to generally get along with other humans. We continue to pass that along and it has NOTHING to do with god. Edit: in fact, I would say that religion has given reason through history to treat people as sub-human. We see it today.

[@seansorlie3231]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 are you serious? I don't want anything to do with your God... Was that not clear? How about some reason and logic instead of fire and fear?

[@user-ih8kr9nt7o]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 We don't wanna join your book club. You're embarrassing. Btw if god created everything and is all powerful and all knowing. Then he created sins, he created humans (knowing danm well they would "sins" because he is all knowing) and then he create Jesus to save his creations (humans) from his other creation (sins). Bro literaly created the villain (hell, sins and whatnot) to make himself look like the hero. God is basically watching a play he wrote. That mythological fan fiction is so full of plot hole, circular logic. The lore of the characters are contradictory and doesn't make any sense.

[@technobabb4233]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363If god made us with free will, then we can use that free will how we please. If we have free will, but any option not already laid before us results in eternal punishment (hell), then no, we do not have free will. Thus either A, we don't have free will, even if we WERE designed to, or B, there is no actual eternal punishment.

[@Mariwend]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 If god was a perfect being he could give people free will and get rid of bad actions.

[@indigohued]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 please stop copy pasting the same thing into everyone's comments. You can believe in what you believe in, but I don't think its necessary to reply to everyone.

[@bluesfun]

39:55 this is probably the best sentence in this video: "if you simply believe a religiuous proposition is true because it makes you feel better than any alternative, please just admit that, don't give impressionable people the idea that your views are based on reason if you're just going to forego rational arguments and simply appeal to emotion".

[@erik_gerhard]

It shocks me how many Christians I know are unwilling to admit this. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging a particular philosophy or worldview fits your personal identity better than another, instead of trying to convince others it’s the correct one. In fact, I think it’s much more honest. Unfortunately, many Christians seem to feel that decently informed personal preference is a damning rationale, and that conversely…forcing anecdotal logic into attempting to prove the objectivity of a mindset that is, self-admittedly, based on faith…isn’t. I wish I knew why.

[@jameswarrren2545]

Reason, rationality are not the domain of religion. Only myth, allegory, parable, dreams are.

[@WanderingWolfe]

In philosophy, we discussed the idea of enough evidence to accept something as truth. In which the evidence might be subjective. When applied to religion, it was basically, if you see things in the world that validate your belief in God/etc. to you, then your belief is valid. However, we also talked about the idea that believing in religion because your parents say it's true is only valid until you are a free thinking adult. After that, truth by authority should fall aside to personal evidence and rationality.

[@NathanThompsonBlueEyes]

@@erik_gerhard It shocks me how Agnostics/Atheists are unwilling to admit this. Your next sentence is literally a completely self-defeating statement. You are trying to convince us that your way of thinking is better, while shouting down convincing others their way is right. "Unfortunately, many Christians seem to feel that..." Oh, thank the heavens that you're there to speak for many Christians...Then you go into another self-defeating sentiment--that forcing anecdotal logic is a damning rational--meanwhile forcing your anecdotal logic. Get real.

[@NathanThompsonBlueEyes]

@@jameswarrren2545 Yeah, especially the religions of Atheism and Agnosticism.

[@EveCat2343]

"You feel guilty because you are guilty." Bruh, I feel guilty for going to bed early.

[@EveCat2343]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I'm already a Christian lol

[@LineOfThy]

@@EveCat2343 He goes to every comment regardless

[@Qubecumber]

​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I will probably regret joining this thread, but it's nice to see a youtube comment preacher who actually takes the time to respond to things. As a former christian, I really don't have anything against religion BUT I would suggest to watch both videos pertaining to your point of view, and videos from the opposite. What I'm trying to say is that if God truly does exist, and you're confident in your position, then I would recommend to watch both Christian AND atheist videos. If you really want to convince atheists to convert, you will need to understand their point of view, and vice versa. I do have one question about belief though; I see you point out in another thread that other religions are "made up" but how do you know that your bible, written by humans who are prone to mistakes, has no even slight errors?

[@novastar6112]

@@Qubecumber yea... barring access to the other perspective is one thing that many cult leaders and brainwashers do, a thing that this guy keeps saying atheists are!

[@Qubecumber]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 Fair answer, and fits with the idea that if God exists, he wouldn't let mistakes like that happen. Thank you for unlike most yt preachers, answering questions. I wish you luck in converting others, while also understanding them.

[@LuisAlba-bv1qx]

I feel like all this energy Christians (as a Christian myself) that is spend trying to force a doctrine, definition, lifestyle onto others could be better spent doing the things we were taught to do. Like charity work, fundraisers for those that need it, volunteer work etc. If that same energy that was placed on hating other people for not being Christian was applied to helping others regardless of their view, stance or faith etc. the world would be a little better for just a moment.

[@marknieuweboer8099]

Thumbs from a staunch atheist.

[@donaldbingham8990]

I was required to go to church from the time I was 6 years old until I became an adult. They told us lots of bible stories which I thought were the same kind of fairy tales that I had heard as a child. I never thought any of the stories were true because they defied reason and I have never changed my mind. It baffles me why grown people argue and kill each other over such nonsense. I am old and will die before too much longer. When I die I expect to simply cease to exist. After thinking about the christian claim of everlasting life, I find that thought terrifying. It is bad enough being 80 with all the aches and pains that come with that age. Besides I can't stand many of the so called christians now so why in the world would I want to be caged up with them for eternity. I much prefer the idea of eternal peace where I just cease to exist like common sense suggests. If more people would be concerned with leading a good and meaningful life and stop worrying about what they are going to do after they die the world would be a much better place.

[@Helena-me6mp]

i respect you, you have the right mindset, if you are fine with what you have done, you shouldnt worry about your morality because you are a good human being.

[@Helena-me6mp]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 If you are just quoting a 2000 year old book to prove something without saying anything, do you think anyone will care?

[@Helena-me6mp]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 HAHHAHHAHA ok: "It is impossible for nature to have made itself or be eternal." So youre saying that nothing can just be there right? Everything has a creator?

[@michaelchampion3056]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 what garbage

[@michaelchampion3056]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 I do not believe because none of it is true. NO God, Jesus was just some Religious nutter like you seem to be. All Religions are made up and used to control the People. If you bleedy God is so great why the Hell did he mess up everything. Children need to believe not Adults. Quote what you like from a made up Book as it proves nothing