How Dune Gets Religious Psychology Exactly Right

I’m 100% sure you haven’t heard this perspective on Dune.
Religion as depicted in Dune lines up with actual scientific theories of religious psychology in specific ways: Fremen religion contains costly signaling, those living in hardship are more religious, religious ritual helps the Fremen survive, fundamentalists support military intervention, and Paul uses Credibility Enhancing Displays to encourage belief in the prophecy and his place in it.
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Chapters:
00:00 Intro
This video contains 100% therapeutic grade skepticism.*
*This statement has not been evaluated by the FDA

[@Runeterra11]

Actually, it is said in the book that Paul doesn't know whether he'll survive his duel with Feyd-Rautha. What he knows for sure, thanks to prescience, is that it doesn't matter. If Paul wins, then Muad'dib is undefeatable and Fremen will carry out the holy war in his name. If Paul loses, Muad'dib has sacrificed himself for the cause and the Fremen will carry out the holy war to honor his death.

[@sjmcc13]

My memory is saying rhe only threat to his plans there was Count Fenring, because Fenring was a near success to the breeding program and had enough of the potential Paul did that he could turn the tides, Fenring refusing to kill Paul was the post of victory in rhe meeting.

[@chrishooge3442]

You've described the process of martyrdom succinctly.

[@rahmatbagusss]

If he life he become al mahdi. And if he died he become jesus.

[@lemon4087]

oh but in movie Paul knows he lives?

[@dorbie]

It's one of many nexuses of future outcomes that Paul encounters to add jeopardy despite his superpowers but I don't think it's presented as a great risk except for a few moments with the poison on the emperor blade which he converts using his powers and the poisoned belt buckle. I do remember that Count Fenring is presented as a real threat had he accepted the Emperor's request to be his champion because then Paul might have lost, because Fenring is obscured to Paul in a similar way the Guild Navigators are due to Fenring being a failed Kwisatz-Haderach bloodline. The Jihad is pretty much assured quite early in the storyline from memory, it's clear that Paul cannot stop what has been started long before that knife fight and so is swept along as a prisoner of destiny hoping to minimize the damage. Once he converts the water of life he sees further and is truly trapped by prescience.

[@PaulSkySwitzer]

One piece that's downplayed in the movie but is a core part of the book is that the Fremen aren't just saving the water for the sake of religion - they're saving the water to build their green paradise. The religious fervor is at least partially directed towards a better future for their children, not just bound up in the mystical past and present.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

It wasn't just bodies either. They have other means of collection. Hence the drip drip sound always in the caches.

[@nadiaraven]

I agree, this was a little frustrating to watch, though an argument could be made that since the fremen will never see the benefit of a green arakis, and it's still not certain that their scheme would work, it still functions similarly to, for example, a belief in an afterlife.

[@BrandanLee]

Not mentioned in this video is that while he original Fremen faith was spontaneous among the Zensunni, it was hijacked and modified by the "Space Catholic Nuns". Which is probably true even of Christianity and Islam, both. They started as an earnest faith spontaneously, then got hijacked by Rome or Persians in an attempt to control it and use it for their own means. At which point they got out of control and went off the deep end, overthrowing governments and conquering nations they were meant to protect.

[@CarnerioTostado]

It's briefly mentioned in the movie, but it is mentioned.

[@pure_the0ry]

@@CarnerioTostadoyeah isn’t that why stilgar brings up the return of the messiah when he’s showing Jessica the well

[@alishersadullaev8533]

The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins Soren Kierkegaard

[@sandkang827]

*HAVE.....TO...CONTIAN... THE URGE... TO SPOIL....*

[@cryoshakespeare4465]

Now what if you have a tyrant who is martyred?

[@whathell6t]

⁠@@cryoshakespeare4465 A tyrant who is martyred is Godzilla.

[@slyseal2091]

@@cryoshakespeare4465 The martyr is in his (non-)existence divorced from the controls he could have had as a living tyrant. He's just a tool to be used by whoever is best at shaping the message of the martyrdom. The quote is trying to say that the power projection of a tyrant that only represents himself, is far weaker than that of a tyrant thats represented by a martyr('s message).

[@cryoshakespeare4465]

@@slyseal2091 Sure, I was just notioning at an idea of a tyrant planning their martyrdom, in order to have both temporal and spiritual power, as it were, to never give up the throne (even if they only rule in legacy and memory after they're gone). Some people take legacy very seriously, so it doesn't seem out of the question.

[@apolloliar]

May thy KZbin career grow in the name of Shai-Hulud.

[@MonoFlax]

as written

[@Irnbru_addict]

As written

[@murphygreen8484]

As written

[@reptilesarecool9763]

As written

[@EnbyGhostFin]

as written

[@albertwestbrook4813]

Religions often interpret the smallest of things as having great significance. Paul chooses the name Muad dib because he admires and identifies with the little desert mouse. Stilgar reinterprets this by pointing out that the mouse is wise in the ways of the desert. He then goes further by pointing out that their "northern star" constellation is again the little mouse known as "he who shows the way". Stilgar could have kept going; the mouse is "he who collects the sweat from his ears (doesn't waste water)", "he who hides his passing (buries his poop)", "he who annoys the great (hides underfoot and squeels)", and so on.

[@pasithea4769]

if im remembering correctly, in the book, pauls chooses the name muad dib because he wanted to avoid the holy war he saw in his visions. This obviously did not work out and shows that even though he can see the future, he cannot necessarily change it. He, more than anyone, is a slave to the future,

[@Roach_Dogg_JR]

I mean that constelllation thing is a pretty big coincidence tbh

[@Benjamin_Kraft]

@@Roach_Dogg_JR I think you're missing the point. Stilgar, and other fervently religious people, will search for significance until they find it. Lets say he wanted to be called by the name of a desert sparrow (supposing Arrakis is home to such a species). Stilgar could have reasoned such: Ah, the sparrow, it is nimble and quick, always alert. It can fly over the sands and not disturb the maker, and it is safe within the hard walls of the cliffs where it makes its fortress. The sparrow is also the bringer of good news in our ancient fairy-tales - a teller of good news, like the voice from outer worlds, Lisan Al Gaib. Surely, that Paul wants to be named Sparrow is a sign that he must be the Mahdi! Look around for strange coincidences, and elements to support a narrative you want to believe, and you will find them.

[@albertwestbrook4813]

@@Roach_Dogg_JR I don't know. We have the Southern Cross (sort of).

[@albertwestbrook4813]

@@Benjamin_Kraft That is my point. Look at all of the goofy "patterns" (constellations) we've found in our own skies. Heck, Australian indigenous peoples have found patterns in the parts of the sky that apparently LACK stars, and given them significance. I like your sparrow analogies.

[@icusawme2]

From the book… Their religion of Dune was seeded/created by the Bene Gesserit. They are the masters of religion, even to the point of creating prophecies of a messiah that ends up outside of their control.

[@AbdullahMikalRodriguez]

This is a shallow interpretation... the whole point is that they tried to control religion but it didn't work. You can't control the transcendent. One of the main themes people miss in Dune is destiny/determinism. It is a thoroughly teleological story. This idea that everyone has that religion is depicted as something completely negative is something secular people are projecting onto the story of Dune. The criticism is of fanaticism of all kinds, including religion, but not of religion itself.

[@MMarcuzzo]

​@@AbdullahMikalRodriguezWhat a great comment you made. Destiny and determinism is very well emphasized in the latest books. Especially god emperor. *Spoilers, maybe?* . . . . . It's funny, because people interpret Frank's view as pessimistic, but our characters kinda surpasses determinism in the end. Prescience being worthless and so on.

[@hoi-polloi1863]

To be fair, Fremen religion did legitimately derive from the Zensunni tradition. What the BGs did was inject certain legends and prophecies into Fremen practice, which could be of use to a stranded BG sister. If you want a true cynically constructed religion, you'll have to look to Leto II.

[@firefish69]

I adore Dune's term: "religious engeneering"

[@hoi-polloi1863]

@@firefish69 Check out Vernor Vinge's book "A Fire Upon the Deep". The local university has a "Department of Applied Theology"!

[@zegermanscientist2667]

"I'm not the Messiah!" "Yes you are, O Lord, and I should know, I've followed a few!" Most underrated dialogue in Life of Brian.

[@Jollyroger84103]

They even made a similar joke about that in Dune Part 2. The conversation Stilgar has about seeing signs in Paul, early in the movie, has one of his peers commenting back "Again?" implying that this isn't the first time Stilgar claimed to have found the Messiah

[@irgendwieanders2121]

Jehova! Jehova!

[@hitchensghost]

Brian : You're all individuals! Crowd: WE'RE ALL INDIVIDUALS! John Cleese : I'm not.

[@edwardcullen1739]

LOL, yeah, there was a moment when I could only hear "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"

[@adamsmith7885]

Jesus Christ warned me about false messiahs that will arise in the End Times. He commanded me to not follow them and reject them. When my Lord Jesus returns, it will not be a debate about whether He did or not. ✝️

[@louzander]

The other important part of martyrdom that serves to concretize the faith of believers is that a martyr becomes an icon, with reified beliefs, whose identity can more easily be molded to serve group ideals. Living prophets are mutable, capricious, and challenging; martyred prophets are iconic, flexible, and can more easily be turned to charge the devotion of adherents.

[@dominictemple]

Well said.

[@shrekiscool4743]

Yep. If you're dead, you can't call bullshit on what people say about you.

[@jursamaj]

Funny thing is, martyrs can be so easily invented. If you ask christians, most will claim that all or most of the 12 disciples were martyred. Truth is, there is no evidence for that, as most of them simply disappear from the stories and from history. But believers all invent their own version of the mythology anyway.

[@jakeaurod]

Head canon get a head.

[@chickensalad3535]

This is a really great analysis.

[@regallag888]

Frank Herbert may not have had the advantage of knowing these formalized theories, but he did spend a LOT of time studying religions and peoples. That's one of reasons that Dune is so enduring, it's all about people.

[@afriendofafriend5766]

Honestly I feel like anyone who's looked at religion can kind of tell these things. It's not that difficult.

[@reee6837]

I think it's one the reasons why the original 6 books are good while his son's extended books gets called non canonical or shunned by the fandom. Frank writes about humanity. Brian just writes sci-fi and world build without understanding the original books.

[@harrymills2770]

@@reee6837 I disagree. What's jarring about the prequels is the mundane origins of things that had gone the way of myth by the time Paul Atreides came along. I think this is what we would find about any religion's beginnings. "So all Jesus was saying was love one another and not that He was literally the only way to Heaven, but that LOVE was the only way to Heaven." Herbert does a brilliant job of cataloguing how the essence of things gets watered-down by people in the future, with no connection to the milieu from which those things originally emerged. "Museum Fremen." The Fish Speakers. The Priesthood. But I do agree to an extent, because those who followed Frank had the broad outlines from his capacious notes and outlines, but they cranked out the stories without fully fleshing them out, much the same way that George Lucas had a clear vision of the fall of Anakin Skywalker, but he sort of fumbled the actual storytelling, making it subservient to the benchmark events and pre-planned spectacles. The essential plot points are still Old Man Herbert's, but one suspects that the Old Man would've kept the mystery and majesty alive a little better.

[@tbotalpha8133]

It... really isn't? It is a painfully conservative, patriarchal and queerphobic book, clinging to outdated notions of eugenics and "decadence". The Fremen are orientalised noble savages, and the Imperial houses are a squabbling den of snakes unlike any real aristocracy (at least, not ones that built strong and lasting polities). Dune is nonsense. The only thing it gets right is religious fundamentalism and the danger of messiah figures. And the only reason it's "enduring" is because nerd culture tends towards the nostalgic and conservative.

[@itsmyboardwhotalk]

Im quite sure he had similar theories, which def. effected his writing process. his books are highly philosophical and the frankfurter school for example wrote similar about religion.

[@VicedRhino]

I've never been able to get away with using a Monty Python clip that long without getting copyright claimed. May the Fair Use gods be with you 🙏🙏

[@BelRigh]

It's "life of Brian" they are just happy more ppl are seeing it ...

[@Paulski25]

I loved the Life of Brian quote in the movie and I was not alone.

[@kapifromnevada4697]

Hello Vinced

[@darlalathan6143]

It helps if you post a "Fair Use" notice at the beginning and list the Monty Python creators at the end of the video. That's how I got my "V for Vendetta" review on here!

[@kg30004]

Respect for showing the best part of the joke all the way through

[@whyguy5324]

The pools actually serve a more practical purpose in the book. When they die their water is actually returned to the tribe and consumed, and the pools are for the terraforming plan that Liet-Kynes set into motion

[@dindindundun8211]

Agreed - to add: it's specifically a terraforming plan informed by planetary ecology and a scientific model for how organisms change their environment. This plan was mythologized by both the "planetologist", for better results, and the Fremen themselves, who had a pre-existing religion that emphasized water conservation. It's the presentation of Religion as a systematized set of survival behaviors and "ways-of-knowing" that can be manipulated by good (Paul, arguably / Liet-Kynes) or bad (bene gesserit) actors. Very interesting topic.

[@shambhav9534]

The pools are, if I recall, just a general reservoir for storing water. Some of it must be used in the terraforming, but not all of it. They need to drink water too.

[@whyguy5324]

@@shambhav9534 I think in the book Stilgar tells Lady Jessica that no Fremen would touch it. They know the exact amount of water they need and are going to be storing water for generations so they probably saw taking that water akin to depriving more of their descendants of paradise

[@smutnaryba4937]

Exactly. Fremen are actually way more practical in the books than the video suggests. They are even described as perfectionists, because their moisture preserving technology is so precise. If religion was more important to them than survival then they would never have drank the water from dead bodies. Instead, their religion is based on survival. Water is so rare and precious to them it’s almost like God itself.

[@sjmcc13]

​@whyguy5324 I has been a few years, but my memory is saying that there were tokens that could be used to make withdrawals from the wells, and Paul accidentally flirted with Chani by asking her to hold the ones he got for Jamis's water.

[@adamnesico]

Fremen society is relatively free of conflict because most conflicts tend to be solved with death duels.

[@karthiksunil219]

their conflict is with their own environment

[@adamnesico]

@@karthiksunil219 you read the book? Honor duels are very important part of their society, they didn’t properly showed it in the movies.

[@MrMokey24]

I vaguely remember different Fremen factions fighting each other

[@tbotalpha8133]

Which is complete nonsense, because they're a society with a low-density population, that couldn't possibly support the levels of fatal internal violence that is described. Among their real-world equivalents, like hunter-gatherers and steppe nomads, duels to the death among peers are nowhere to be found. Not in the modern day, or the historical record. Because in those societies, human lives are a precious commodity, and the people living in those societies are well aware of that. So they'd rather settle internal conflicts through peaceful means, instead of pissing lives away in pointless duels. The Fremen are barbarian stereotypes, with little basis in reality.

[@adamnesico]

@@tbotalpha8133 According to Napoleon Chagnon, the yanomamo are a low density people where duels are common and is relatively frequent they produce deaths. Like fremen, yanomamo have poligamy due to the consecuent gender imbalance of the high male mortality. Fremen are warriors, they aren’t afraid of death or violence.

[@aliciabergman1252]

To me Chani is the most interesting character since the real dilemma center's around her. She loves Paul for who he is but not the symbol he chooses to become. They share the goal of freeing the fremen from oppression but while Paul might give them power through belief it also gives him power over them. This goes against Chanis' strong values of equality between the fremen, between her and Paul. He might negate that he is Lisan al Gaib but will still use it as a tool/weapon to come to power. Everyone else in the story feel's like a pawn in a game, shortsightedly focused on what will clear the way to victory while Chani is conserned what that way will bring with it.

[@keith6706]

Chani is representative of what we've seen in real-world cultures over the last few decades, or at least become more aware of. The lazy equivalent would be, say, Afghanis who fought as members of mujahedeen groups against the occupying Soviets in the 1980s. When the Taliban became dominant and seized control, the first thing they did was purge any opposition from people who had fought for the same goal but didn't share their religious extremism. Herbert wrote the Fremen as, basically, a monoculture that didn't have this issue. Oh, there might be some personal disagreements over specifics, but no one stood up opposed to the extremism. Chani thus becomes symbolic of what real life demonstrates exists, but which Herbert didn't write: someone who is part of a culture but is helpless in the face of the culture falling to extremism, who knows it will result in bad things but can't stop it. By the end of the film, she's the only one of the people closest to Paul who still questions the morality of what's happening: Stilgar is a true believer in the religion, Jessica is the cynical manipulator using the belief, Gurney doesn't care as long as it helps him get his revenge on the Harkonnens, and so far as she can see, Paul has fully given himself to being the power-hungry user of the faith of people in him. Yes, in terms of the novel series overall arc, what Paul did was necessary for the long term good, and the film makes a hint of that, but that's not something she's privy to so her reaction is honest to what someone in her position would be. I really like the way Chani was used, in other words.

[@benjalucian1515]

@@keith6706 Good post. I agree.

[@gerrysharpe1958]

Well said! So many others are choosing to criticize Chani as a character and the actress personally. Totally ignoring Chani is the writer's discretion and director vision manifested by the actress masterfully.

[@trikepilot101]

@@keith6706 Paul does say something like "I see many futures where I die. There is only one where I survive." Paul isn't "power--hungry," his survival depends on him taking power. This presumably includes fighting the nobel houses who won't acknowledge him as emperor.

[@keith6706]

@@trikepilot101 I was describing it from Chani's point of view. She sees Paul openly manipulating the Fremen to take up a role he claimed earlier he didn't want. She sees him apparently dump her in favour of a princess that will give him a claim to the throne and not even try to explain it to her. She sees him launch a holy war that he's told her will result in untold bloodshed, all because people won't kiss his feet. From her point of view, her reaction is entirely rational: she sees Paul having become a megalomaniac using her people as cannon fodder for his ambitions.

[@markm2092]

Not enough people draw parallels between Gurney and the Fremen. He seems secular or at the very least doesn’t believe in the religion of the fremen, but his drive for revenge and loyalty to the Atredies line leads him to behave in similar ways to the Fremen who follow Paul. He even silences Chani at the great council, not a random faithful Fremen but Gurney. The Dune books were also based on the cult like following that surrounded JFK, who of course was not an explicitly religious figure. Social psychology and the pitfalls of the human psyche are not bound up in religion but rather can use a religion as a mask.

[@Eagle3302PL]

In the movies he is Flanderised to hell, that's why no one talks about him.

[@Duck_OG]

You are referring to Gurney Halleck not Stilgar

[@markm2092]

@@Duck_OG my mistake, I edited it out

[@Eldiran1]

This remind me the french revolution of 1789 (the most well know french revolution ) During these time, nearly all of europe was against the french revolutionnaries. After some religious people where oppress because of their link to the ancient power in place (the french nobility), the new class in power, the bourgeoisie try to use a new technique. They needed to unifie the nation again this coalition of all europe and they nearly invent a new kind of religion. They invent a new flag, new ritual link with the nation,new callender, a national day was declared, a new hymn, they plant some "tree of liberty" in nearly every village, etc... They invent what we called nationalism and what will spread 50-60 years in the spring of people. We often see that sort of event like if religion is not part of it, like it's just people who love their countries but it's more than that. Some of them trully believe in the ideal of the revolution, some of them believe that the french where a core part of their identities and that they must fight to defend it, even if it mean to die for. It's not as strong as a religion per say, but they are definitivly something related to it. And i think Gurney is somewhat like these french revolutionnaries. He believe paul can lend him to revenge, that he will carries the legacy of his father and all of that implies.

[@markm2092]

@@Eldiran1 and starting a new religion or starting a movement that inspires religiosity and cult like fanaticism is very hard, especially when scaled up to an entire nation or ethnicity. Perfect storm is the way I would put it.

[@valmid5069]

“The danger with people like him…is that we put them on pedestals. They become symbols. Icons. *And then we start to forget about their flaws.* From there, cities fly, innocent people die, movements are formed, wars are fought” -Baron Zemo, MCU

[@doomdrake123]

"Here lies a toppled god - His fall was not a small one. We did but build his pedestal, a narrow and tall one." Frank Herbert, God-Emperor of Dune. Upvote 8 Downvote

[@Bundalaba]

At first I thought it was a mockery of Muslims but the again ; Struggling but tough desert people fighting for their rights over their land and very precious resource stolen by pompous honorless foreigners sounds about right ...

[@TheVolt18]

​@@doomdrake123pretty sure this was in Messiah but perfect quote

[@doomdrake123]

@@TheVolt18 Goodreads agrees with you I stand corrected

[@TheVolt18]

@@doomdrake123 o7

[@michaellambgelo]

Bless the Maker and His water. Bless the coming and going of Him. May His passage cleanse the world. May He keep the world for His people.

[@Deridus]

Bilal kaifa!

[@TheMeanestGenius]

Bless the DJ and his beats. Bless his bass and his treble. May his drops shake the world. May he keep the music for his people.

[@DarkSaber-1111]

Who is Shi-Hulud; Leto the 2nd the son of Paul, who had the straight to do what his father could not and tame the hord within him without brcoming an abomination leading the way with his terrible golden path, or the worm that came before him, before Paul, before the Fremen and before the very Desert! When Leto died and the Worms pulled away from his body, when his consciousness left its echo and parts of itself in every worm, who then takes title of Shi-Hulud? And if the worm that came before still lives, what then?

[@TheMeanestGenius]

@@DarkSaber-1111 you uhh, shutthe hellup ur irrr it-tate-in me nah

[@Gunth0r]

@@DarkSaber-1111 don't spoil it for the kids :)

[@AnthonyPinkerton-d7p]

I once was studying to become a priest in the Catholic Church; what's funny is that in one of the classes I attended, they actually teach about the religiosity of the Dune religion. Not the manifestation of the Shai-Hulud. But in the religious manifestation in Paul becoming the Lisan Al-Gaib. Since the beginning to Paul's journey, he was battling the idea that he was the Lisan Al-Gaib or Madhi. While he was from outside of the Fremen experience; he didn't actually show anything miraculous. The fremen were all seeing the signs and trying to interpret there meaning. It only becomes apparent that something in Paul's understanding changes once he consumes the Water of Life. In that singular instance, he manifests both the legend of the Lisan Al-Gaib and the religous title of Madhi, but he shows by word and deed that he can point to a specific Fremen and talk about a singular event that only that individual Fremen would ever know. Pointing to how everyone in Fremen culture will have to sacrifice for the creation of the Paradise that all Fremen have toiled for centuries to bring about. It much the same way of how cults brainwash their members into accepting the strange notions of the cult leader without question; in most cases, it's not in their understanding to rationally question the idea presented, but to just do as commanded.

[@lalihoi8625]

Well what do you study now

[@AnthonyPinkerton-d7p]

@@lalihoi8625 I'm not in the seminary because the church made it abundantly clear that they refuse to ordain anybody suffering from mental illness. I'm currently living on SSI/SSDI benefits

[@toonyandfriends1915]

@@AnthonyPinkerton-d7p sucks man

[@kristianyaka_nation3137]

​@@AnthonyPinkerton-d7psounds like a reasonable decision.

[@chriscolombie4135]

@@AnthonyPinkerton-d7psorry to hear that but I believe it depends on the country , hope you live a good life now

[@joshuadempsey5281]

0/10, didn't mention the popcorn bucket at all

[@theemployer-pj4iv]

You got a heart good sir!

[@JLchevz]

Frank Herbert was a genius. Simply one who understood humanity.

[@iloveeveryone8611]

He had a better understanding than most, but the times of today are far more enlightening than what Herbert had a chance to observe. His mistake is thinking religious belief is an adopted virtue rather than an innate character of human nature. Many ideologies, far more dangerous than religiion, are adooted today under a guise of rationalism.

[@xponen]

​@@iloveeveryone8611 For example, he grasped the concept of religion as if it were an innate instinct he possessed from the start. If religiosity is indeed a natural trait in humanity, then it's logical how his understanding of it decades ago, as a solitary journalist, aligns with modern interpretations made by social scientists.

[@ShadowD2C]

Nope just orientalist drivel, like everything that comes from the west

[@TheLolzKnight]

@@iloveeveryone8611 To follow on to this, an observation of mine: people crave certainty and purpose. It grants them confidence. People want to think they are following the "right path", and thus things that allow them to feed this sense of confidence the 'easy' way (IE, unfounded confidence) are a sort of inevitability. An example. Many of the so called "Hyper rationalists" that gather on the internet have a shared stereotype: edgy teenagers who rebel against the conservative religious values of their parents and become atheists, or really into gross things, or other counter cultural beliefs. The thing at the core of this behavior is insecurity: when you are a teenager you seek identity, a way to define yourself against the world. If you are especially anxious or insecure and crave validation that you are better than others, then things that allow you to easily validate that belief and reinforce your sense of identity become a dangerous lure. (Note: I am not saying atheists are wrong, largely being one myself, but the irony of being motivated hatred of the god your parents believe in is giving power to an entity you are supposed to believe does not exist. You can't be mad at god unless you believe he's real, that sort of thing. There's also the matter of atheists who believe in religion as a social force, but that's too nuanced for a bracketed aside like this). Looking down on your religious authority figures and saying "I am better than everyone because I know the REAL truth, and am so much smarter and better informed and rational than everyone else!" is satisfying. This is a similar place to conspiracy theorists "Wake up sheeple!" rhetoric comes from. This facsimile of happiness and security that believing in something demonstrably false (Or that you have not personally substantiated, see science aesthetics lovers) grants them is enormously psychologically seductive as it's tailored to your own personal neuroses. We seek out things that help us validate our own world views because it is a shared trait to crave certainty. Placing yourself in a meta-stable state of "secure" indefinite uncertainty and admitting you don't know is difficult, and uncomfortable. Religion can be a form of letting go of certainty by giving up agency, or physical possessions, or habits, etc. by ascribing it to an unknowable unknown. In contrast to a complex philosophical framework like absurdity or nihilism, we have seen religiosity/spirituality as a solution to this psychological problem emerge independently many times. In short: it's a simple, easy, and therefor STABLE belief system to fall into for our minds. The religiosity isn't the problem IMO. It's unquestioning belief. In values you don't take ownership of (A fanatic who does thing s/he knows are wrong because his authority ordered him to). In something you want to believe because you've made it your identity (Conspiracy theorist believing in the absurd). It ends up being the same: allowing your craving for validation and certainty to allow yourself to be manipulated into monstrous acts. I respect a serial killer who murders for amusement more than a fanatic who is following orders. The former is an animal. The latter made themselves one.

[@synlion]

@@iloveeveryone8611care to give any examples?

[@TaberIV]

In the book Paul actually can't see how the fight with Feyd-Rautha is going to go, but Paul knows it ultimately doesn't matter. _...if I die here, they'll say I sacrificed myself that my spirit might lead them. And if I live, they'll say nothing can oppose Maud'Dib._

[@Strykenine]

I think one of the interesting things about Dune is that Paul's myth grows beyond his control. It is a thing that no one controls, until Paul tries to. The rest of the series focuses on the consequences of Paul basically stepping into his myth. Good video!

[@lauriethompson740]

Yes, that's a good way of putting it 'stepping into his myth', which of course is only 'his' in the sense that he's a slightly off course part of the Bene Gesserit's myth, and hence part of his reluctance to 'step into it'. Perhaps there's an inevitability to it growing beyond his control, myths are archetypal by definition, so never really anyone's, but the manifestation of them appears to be able to culturally evolve to some extent, or combine differently at least

[@ivanhenderson31]

It’s not a myth. It’s as if one can see possible future outcomes. Myth have to do with history😅

[@Strykenine]

@@ivanhenderson31 Do they really?

[@rikk319]

@@ivanhenderson31 The myth part is the Bene Gesserit groundwork. A few Bene Gesserit missionaries came to Dune centuries before and "seeded" the Fremen with "prophecies"--made-up tales for the Fremen to slowly accept as part of their religion, so that if and when the kwisatz haderach ever showed up, he'd be accepted there.

[@davyclaessens2650]

​@@StrykenineIn the strictest definition, yes. Myths are the oldest stories of a culture.

[@PauLtus_B]

5:36 there's honestly so much of "Life of Brian" in "Dune part 2". That's not a jab to Dune, it just means that even a very silly comedy needs something real to be memorable.

[@Mikearice1]

Read "Monty Python and Philosophy". It's part of a series of pop culture explorations of philosophy. Others are based on Star Wars, Halo, the Matrix, etc. Anyway, a lot Monty Python stuff can be taken more deeply than one might think at a glance.

[@PauLtus_B]

@@Mikearice1 It's why I tend to really dislike parodies. I really don't have an inherent problem with them but most of them just take the thing they're making fun of and go "haha isn't that silly". If you want to make a good parody of something you need to understand really well why it worked in the first place before turning them onto their head and start joking with it. I think the smart thing about Monty Python might be that it can make a very specific and smart observation and then still twist it so it also works on a "fart-joke" level.

[@timmoleft7147]

@@PauLtus_B Thats why the 'Constitutional Peasants' scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail is one of the cleverest - and funniest - scenes ever written.

[@plSzq1]

@@PauLtus_B I would call it dressing rather than "twist", you can dress any concept, idea, problem, etc into any story, setting, joke, scene or anything. MP group were translating deep and complex concepts into simpler forms using the comedy as a flypaper.

[@Mainyehc]

There’s also silly walks!

[@xXthatonedudeguyXx]

When I left my religion, it was frustrating to experience the cognitive dissonance of my peers when presented with evidence that our beliefs aren’t true. I didn’t know about confirmation bias at the time and how powerful it is, as shown by Stilgar and the Fremen believers. Everything is a sign that your beliefs are true and nothing can convince you otherwise.

[@benjalucian1515]

It's like the saying "They didn't come by their belief with reason so they're not going to be reasoned out of their beliefs."

[@Deridus]

You have to break someone's grasp of their worldview in order to change it. Sometimes it's easy, but it's rarely worth the effort.

[@Annntttt12]

Can be positive. Stilgars faith gives him courage and brought hope and inspiration to liberate themselves from slavery

[@dalodulo1373]

​​@benjalucian1515 You might wanna check the video "4 more things atheists should stop saying" by this channel. That saying is on it. For one, this statement is reductive and unhelpful. Many people are reasoned out of unreasonable beliefs all the time. Secondly, it will be seen as insulting to almost any relgious person you try and speak to. Insults rarely change anyone's minds.

[@lukemichaelsmith7559]

​@@Annntttt12 In this movie yeah, but I think rarely so in the real world. The bible for example teaches to endure slavery and servitude.

[@joshuahutt]

Great take. Made me think about prophecy as prescription rather than prediction. The people see it as prediction, but the role it fills is prescriptive. A prophecy is a long-term strategy for synchronizing behavior across a culture over time. It takes a balance of detail vs ambiguity, but it can effectively enforce cohesion, synchronizing members, and regulating behavior across future events. 🤔

[@toriyt2714]

Prophecy as prescription rather than prediction 😮 that’s a good one to think about.

[@owlegrad]

Since when does a thought have to be original? That’s a pretty high bar tbh.

[@nts4906]

High standards are good. Silence is often a beautiful thing.

[@rogaldorn4759]

The attempt counts.

[@draalttom844]

​@nts4906 urgh, na. Silence makes the brain chaos super loud, just say everything you think about or leave me to a low volume TV in the background

[@nts4906]

@@draalttom844 lmao. I face up to all the chaos until there is none. But I guess you will never experience that peace running away from that which is the problem.

[@draalttom844]

@@nts4906 it never stops, why would it? If you stay staring at a wall all day the brain is loud all day. Theres always many things to think about even in an empty room and it always lead in many directions at a time

[@DrakeTimbershaft]

I was in an Alamo theater when I saw Dune Part II. When I saw Stilgar’s rationalization of Paul’s denial, it took a Herculean amount of strength to not recite that line from Life of Brian out loud. This is naturally based on my fear of breaking the taboo in Alamo of not talking in the theater while the film is playing, and thereby being banished from the Alamo community for all time. Apparently I fear Alamo taboos more than I did the taboos of my old religion.

[@mnm8818]

in my non religious country, the whole cinema laughed at that scene with Stilgar and also on my 2nd viewing. Im not sure if yours did in Alamo? I guess people got it, and not take it personal, as my religious family member didnt like Chani, but sided with the religious prophecy in the movie...

[@DrakeTimbershaft]

@@mnm8818 Yeah, they laughed. Laughter, cheering, and booing, etc. are permitted in the Alamo. You just can’t yap to your friends while the movie is playing. I think the audience laughed at Stilgar’s rationalization because we all saw that scene from Life of Brian. I suspect that Denis Villeneuve had the same idea when he scripted and shot that scene, because it sure as heck wasn’t in the book! 😄

[@mnm8818]

@@DrakeTimbershaft oh i was assuming the Almo viewers were ultra religious so they wouldn't have laugh at a clearly religious dig... anyway hope a lot of the faithful analyse what's happening in Dune to their own lives.

[@donperegrine922]

Is Alamo theatre well known for being strict? I feel like you and the video are making a reference to something. I'm Australian, so I dunno

[@lawrencesmeaton6930]

American's freak me out. The cinema is a sacred experience in the UK. Silence at all time is expected. It's probably descended from our stage theatre culture.

[@mgamaji]

most amazing video I've seen in years. good editing, clear description of thoughts and DOIs.Well done, mate!

[@marshallscot]

It's a tale of "be careful what you wish for." Both Paul and the Fremen get exactly what they want, with unintended consequences for both.

[@belphemmore3802]

It was funny how antireligion dune is, warning you about fanatics and prophecies, then watching my christian family watch this film and not understand a single bit of it.

[@mattmorehouse9685]

Funny, or terrifying.

[@angelikaskoroszyn8495]

Ah, because you see, they follow the wrong religion

[@NovaSaber]

Missing the message isn't limited to just messages about religion, of course. There's a meme with a Gundam launching "war is bad" over the head of a fan who says "cool robot".

[@christopherflux6254]

Pretty much my entire church has been to see this movie. Our perspective is that ‘religion’ and blind faith are problematic. But just a simple faith in God isn’t. In fact trusting God alone prevents leaders from taking advantage.

[@RonnieNichols]

​@@christopherflux6254 that kind of trust would be what those manipulative leaders bank on, presenting themselves as chosen by God. It's especially useful that the Bible warns of false prophets, because they can point to those against them and claim that _they_ are the false prophets.

[@xKarna7]

As an Anthropology student, familiar with the research data and the thesis’s implications, yes, it was still worth watching. You managed to put complicated concepts and ideas in understandable words, linking it to an artistic example. Good research! Keep it up!

[@user-vz8nb7ni9r]

The great thing about enduring art, is it reflects truth back to us.

[@Jackal_El_Lobo34]

(Spoiler alert) The part that caught my attention was the scene when Stilgar was trying to reconcile to his followers that Paul was the chosen one after he made some mistakes that weren’t consistent with that view. While it was played for laughs, I think the scene was meant to demonstrate “cognitive dissonance” which is common among religion as it forces the believer to adjust their expectations when something isn’t adding up with their religious views so that they appear correct even when it’s wrong.

[@LP-zn8sc]

When I saw this I read it differently than a lot of people. It seemed to me at this point that Stilgar's faith could be wavering. However it seems to me at this point it's more important to Stilgar that Paul is believed to be a messiah than whether or not he actually is, because Stilgar needs people to believe he is the messiah to have them engage in the war, which ultimately seems what is most important to him.

[@user-nz8uy1zm3z]

Not sure how you can compare this to Christianity. I don't believe I hold any 'cognitive dissonance' with my beliefs. Especially not that on the level of stillgar atleast. I think he was my favorite character, his faith and loyalty are admirable.

[@yarobrock]

This scene was poorly written. It was slap stick humor - reminiscent of what they did with Gimli in LOTR. It is completely out of place in the setting and makes Stilgar look like a fool. It’s heavy handed and reveals the directors bias without subtlety. I did laugh though.

[@monojuice]

While I respect your viewpoint, his faith and loyalty are actually a tragedy. You first see him as this admirable honorable man who respects the Atreides, who respects Paul and acts as a mentor and a leader to him. Then as you get to the second movie and further into the book you see he starts to become more of a radical follower and worshiper. A blind follower at that and it only gets worse in Messiah

[@user-nz8uy1zm3z]

@@monojuice Well Stillgar is still that same badass man that we saw in Dune 1. Hes still just as deadly, just as wise, and just as much of a leader amongst his people. The only difference is that hes submitting to a clearly better leader, a better fighter, and and even more wise man over him, Paul. Yes of course its a little ignorant to believe in those prophecies, but I don't knock stillgar for that. He and his people were being slaughtered and oppressed on a mass scale, and had been for as far as living memory goes. It only makes sense for him to latch on to his most deep-rooted cultural traditions as a source of strength. Whether or not its true doesn't take away from the fact that the religious fervor surrounding Paul is what finally freed the fremen. Yes, many of them would die in the war, but they would be free, and their grandchlidren or great-grandchildren would finally get to see Arrakis become the green paradise they dreamed of. The change in character you see in stillgar is actually just an exchange of power from him to Paul, and a right one I would say. A man like Stillgar, although not perfect, is a necessary piece of the equation. He reminds me of the great faris and crusaders of old, which I have much respect for.

[@FudgeYeahAmerica]

You did an excellent job of making a very clear point with a lot of back up. And keeping it to just this one thing makes for such an effective video!

[@cathleenc6943]

This absolutely is a movie series worth watching. They fixed all the problems they had in the original Dune movie by breaking it up into a series, removing the choppy, disjointed storyline of the first movie, and making it more in keeping with the book. I loved both, and I am looking forward to the next one. I think that a lot of what Herbert wrote into the book about religious fervor and fundamentalism has been understood by some people for a while before study and research applied scientific method to giving it a more credible argument within the psychological and scientific communities. The concept that a person dying or risking their life for their beliefs giving credibility to those beliefs rather than just them as a person is a very old concept.

[@trikepilot101]

Yep, the science puts some stats on the established intuitions. When I read the book as a teen in the 80's I didn't find the ideas about religion to be beyond the kind of discussions I heard around me.

[@Anonymous-sb9rr]

This understanding that sacrifice strengthens religion, was like a lot of things that we think we know, some things get confirmed by science, others disproven.

[@maartenvanderzwan8281]

I think its a beautiful movie to watch. But I think its a very bad translation of the book. The concept of time in this movie is so distorted. It fucks op the story big time. The original story is 4 years long.

[@henriquesouza8704]

Honestly I think a lot of this nuance on religion can be credited more to Dennis than Herbert. The original book is great and has awesome analysis of religion, but it is a bit simplistic at times, it feels like from the moment Paul says the magic words all of the fremen now believe him and the jihad is already a fact that will happen from the very begining right after he kills Jamis. Dennis brought a lot of nuance on to how Paul actually slowly became this symbol, and by the end, made a very conscious decision to essentially becoming the galaxy's biggest cult leader, initiating the Jihad for his own selfish reasons. The book makes it look easy to manipulate an entire society into thinking you are the chosen one, but the movie actually show how delicate the balance is, and how Jessica is constantly pushing Paul's story to create his legend.

[@KellyDVance]

I think it is important to understand some of the reasons for the writing of Dune and at least one if the tropes. First, Herbert wrote it in response Asimov's Foundation Trilogy. The premise of the Foundation is that no one individual can change the course of history, and if you know how to use psychohistory and mathematics, you can predict outcomes. This is very much not the theme of Dune, where one person can affect everything. As for the Fremen in Dune, Herbert was working off the premise that harsh environments breed stronger people. If you look at the Sardaukar, they are also great warriors who can rival the Fremin, but the only thing they have in common is they are both formed in brutal environments. I think it is also important to remember that the prophecy was implanted into the Fremen culture by the Bene Gesserit. It wasn't organic. The Reverend Mothers used religion as a tool to further their own plans.

[@dominiccasts]

I did not realize that. So basically Herbert wrote a book where the Mule was the main character and constructed by a fairly major player in society intentionally, rather than an out-of-nowhere genetic anomaly that throws off the otherwise clockwork plan.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

Yes, either the movie left out the works of the Missionaria Protectiva, or Drew did. You also can't leave out their genetic manipulations. I have only read the books and haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if the Missionaria is explained well in the movies.

[@KellyDVance]

@@dominiccasts yeah. If you look that the Bene Gesserit, you get a very strong 2nd Foundation vibe. So Jessica chosing not to follow the plan was almost a middle finger to the Foundation.

[@KellyDVance]

@@littlebitofhope1489 I know it is briefly mentioned in the first movie. I haven't seen the second, so I can't say. I do know that the mini-series, from 2000, did spend time addressing it.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

@@dominiccasts I don't know that I would say that the Kwisatz Haderach is the Mule. Also, Paul was not planned for, or actually he came too soon. You have to look at what is behind the entire system, and that is the spice. I believe he was looking at the fact that women have XX and men have XY, so males can use the spice to see both the male and female lines, and hence see all of the past and future, instead of half. That is what made both Paul and Leto so powerful. The hard work for Leto was giving up his humanity and self for a better future for humanity. He had to be inhumane in the "short" term in order to get to the best possible future. Herbert explores the humanity and sacrifice of that too. Paul failed. Leto succeed, but at HUGE cost.

[@christinathatch2949]

This is the adaptation I've been waiting literally half my life for. Possibly my favorite movie of all time

[@domicius]

I enjoyed the analysis of the movie from this angle greatly. I read the book a long time ago, but I seem to remember there is a nuance in the Feyd-Rautha fight where Paul doesn't know what the outcome will be, so it's not an out-and-out cred calculation, but simply a step he must take. I love how in the fight he defeats Feyd the same way that Gurney had defeated him in their training match - the hint that it's actual skill that wins the match. The second movie really pays off many of the scenes from the first movie.

[@LorenzoWake]

This is simultaneously the most original and most obvious angle for a Dune 2 analysis Spot on!

[@GalaMatrix]

This video man…never wanted it to end…very informative

[@woodrowsmith8333]

Herbert had a very clear understanding of human nature and social structure that he demonstrates in all of his books.

[@cjeffygo]

That was a refreshingly intelligent analysis of this film, or any film for that matter. You explained your theory and the basis for it with remarkable clarity and contextualization. You made it very easy to follow your line of reasoning. Great job.

[@k.h.6991]

One adaptation I love in this movie is making Chani a sceptic. In the books she isn't. In the books she's merely the person who doesn't merely know the profet: she also knows the man. It has several functions that in the movie she is a sceptic: it makes her a more independent woman, which works for modern audiences. It also makes her the voice for the agnostic/atheistic amongst the audience: making the movie relatable. AND it makes the central dilemma in the first books (the power of the religious savior and the limitations inherent in that trope) more explicit - you need that in a movie.

[@cyrusatkinson3307]

Well said. I agree, the tweaks they have made with her character IMO make her more important to the story arch, as well as relatable to many normally marginalized groups. Making her the one of reason, keeps her from being just the annoying cloud of doubt.

[@The_Story_Of_Us]

My favourite part of this movie's depiction of religion is that none of it was emergent. The narrative was already there and so the pieces just fell into place BECAUSE of what people believed. Paul became the messiah... because people kept telling him he was and they kept telling him he was... because of generations of mythmaking and propaganda. Paul was right when he first came to Arrakis, they see what they've been told to see. In fact the whole thing isn't even grassroots, the Bene Gesserit manufactured it from scratch! They even deliberately selectively BRED Paul's "divine powers" into existence. Religion does not naturally emerge, it is wholly manufactured and self-perpetuating.

[@chillinchum]

Self fulfilling prophecy is the term.

[@shadowpriest2574]

"Religion does not naturally emerge, it is wholly manufactured and self-perpetuating." Right..... which is why every succesfull society that ever existed was religious, regardless of where it was and when. Also, manufactured? To what end exactly? If you mean that its manufactured to a certain end, then thank you for agreeing that Christianity is the right religion since it served no gain for the people who founded it.

[@ileutur6863]

​@@shadowpriest2574"I'm gonna make my own false conclusions and then thank you for agreeing with them"

[@shadowpriest2574]

@@ileutur6863 Care to explain why they are false ? Also, its not me who "made up my own fake conclusions", if anything its the original poster who did do that. He looked at the events depicted in a movie and said "Wow, this 1 example from a piece of fiction confirms my thinking, I AM RIGHT!". I did no such thing.

[@markm2092]

Paul did have superpowers, the benne gesserit didn’t create the religion from scratch I believe they altered it. And it’s hard to say it was completely manufactured given that the religion is intrinsically tied to making Arrakis green. Religion is tied to environment, it’s not some random idea someone comes up with, it does emerge due to societal and natural phenomena.

[@DundG]

Nice one Drew! Jokingly making a creed by saying you're willingly accept harsh judgement if your take doesn't deliver, while later explaining the power a creed gives to the religious figure! And I must say, it worked! It got me more intrigued, maybe even more because I know your channel for longer and learned to respect your takes thanks to their quality. Every time shocking, but not surprising how irrational we humans are in our day to day life!

[@originaozz]

As an atheist who aligned with Channi throughout the whole film, Dune depictions of religion is exactly why I chose not to belief in one. The way it can be twisted and used as a manipulation tool to people who need something to rely on just never sits right with me. Especially when it's one of the most powerful weapon for imperialism and genocide.

[@fun-with-purpose1436]

Religion is no different than all the other forms of manipulation of the mind. Media, education, entertainment, social groups, “communities” all are idea pendulums that exist outside of people but need people to exist. All groups including the atheist and anti-imperialist are no different, they too use and manipulate to their own benefit. That’s why it’s a game. Be a butt-hurt whiner or be a player and use the tools to get yourself to a position of safety and power. Sift or split molecules to infinity but you’ll never find a piece of “justice” or “equality” or “hope”. These things only exist in our minds, we create them. We have play along, believe in the little lies to believe in the big lies. Otherwise society goes monkey and it’s all out war.

[@Ariel-q7n]

Chani is the opposite in the book.

[@cosmictreason2242]

"I'm an atheist because i watched a fiction movie that portrayed religion negatively" 🤦‍♂️🥱🙄

[@lolmeme69_]

As an atheist who aligned with Paul throughout the entire film, a part of me is considering being religious. Not because I am spiritual - I do not have a single spiritual bone in my body, much like my parents, and much like my grandparents (all atheists) - but because it looks sick. I understand the message of Dune, and I don't fucking care. Paul is literally me and I don't care what anyone says. Partially joking of course.

[@dondonnysson4973]

@@fun-with-purpose1436 Did you miss the part in the video where the man said that cooperative groups will outcompete uncooperative ones out of existence? This is no mere speculation and can be seen in birth rate statistics in all developed countries among religious affiliation. If you view life as a game that you win or lose on an individual basis you or your descendats likely will lose to some religious nut, who you would view as a fool, but is it really foolish if it works? It is kind of like being a fish in a pond and by ruthlessly pursuing your own gain over all else, you would poison the water in which you and all other fish swim in. Does it matter if you are a big fish but you swim in shit? This is what it feels like to live in a western country.

[@AllThingsFilm1]

You had me at the title of the video. It's fascinating to hear that a movie that incorporates a religious group in the story does so in a believable way. You mention how sacrifices demanded from religious communes tended to extend the life of such groups. It makes sense since I think that the tools of guilt, shame and fear I see in many religions is part of their staying power because the choices you make to avoid the punishments leads to you being accepted by the leaders of such groups. Thereby extending the longevity of the group when its members follow the rules. Excellent commentary.

[@benjalucian1515]

*It makes sense since I think that the tools of guilt, shame and fear I see in many religions is part of their staying power because the choices you make to avoid the punishments leads to you being accepted by the leaders of such groups* Exactly. Which is what most secular groups do not emphasize, hence their lesser longevity. And most secular groups recruit adults, while religious groups recruit children especially as child indoctrination is really hard to shake even as an adult.

[@t.a.4356]

@@benjalucian1515 But they can be humilliated by logic speech, can't they?

[@benjalucian1515]

@@t.a.4356 Logic speech has to support itself.

[@t.a.4356]

@@benjalucian1515 Quite a demonstration of not knowing much about logic speech, such line

[@benjalucian1515]

@@t.a.4356 *Quite a demonstration of not knowing much about logic speech* Sounds like YOU don't know the definition of logic. Look it up and get back with me.

[@dmman33]

This is why art matters-especially art directed at kids. It primes their identity formation. Toymakers and storytellers have true power.

[@scipio109]

Bless the youtuber and his content Blessed be his musings and ramblings May his voice cleanse us from fervour And preserve the internet for all people

[@unamejames]

What's interesting to me is that the tone of the movie is so neutral. It's similar to how a documentary would approach chimpanzee cannibalism. Yes, there are aspects of religion that are bad and lead to war, but this is how thousands of years of human history have occurred and there's not a clear way for House Atreides to succeed on that time scale without utilizing religion as a tool for controlling and organizing humanity. The choice seems to be use religion or go extinct. I have heard that Frank Herbert goes on to really lean into the criticism of Paul and criticize his decisions, but I don't believe there was a clear 3rd option for Paul.

[@PsychoSpecter]

An extremely interesting phenomena that occurs throughout the stories is the (unintentional?) humanizing of acts that people protest harshly in the real world simply because we see what we perceive as the "necessity" for it all through the eyes of the protags. It's easy to forget that even the Atreides as the most honorable house we get to observe directly is a family lineage of ruling nobles. Cold, calculating royalty that engages in convoluted political schemes to maintain social, military, and later religious control for their own survival and profit. Even facist political control can be almost forgiven if you empathize enough to see how the world looks through the eyes of the one holding such lofty reins. It could be a lesson in being more forgiving through empathy, or the danger of that as it allows truly unacceptable actions to be humanized via direct experience, or perhaps in Dune fashion the truth of it lies somewhere in between on a shifting scale with no real right answer aside from what fits best in the moment.

[@clan741]

The third option was let go of his revenge on the Harkonnen and Emperor and live the rest of his days as a Fremen. He could not let go his fathers death and the sheer unfairness of their cruelty, and this made the Jihad inevitable

[@unamejames]

@@clan741 But that means House Atreides is lost while Harkonnen and the Emperor's family and ideology will live on for further centuries, during which time they will continue to brutalize many other planets and cultures. "Turning the other cheek" when that means letting Harkonnen do that is immoral. If everybody did that, houses like Harkonnen would be able to pick off every planet one by one.

[@benjalucian1515]

@@unamejames Doubtful. It would take very little time for the emperor to decide to get rid of the Harkonnens. "Two people may keep a secret if one of them is dead."

[@unamejames]

@@benjalucian1515 Then either the Emperor or the House he uses to destroy the Harkonnens will live on, brutalizing every other planet and culture. They aren't just going to fizzle out by themselves.

[@Spiralis0]

This is the first video I have ever watched on this channel but certainly will not be the last. This video was very well-researched and executed. I will definitely tune in for future uploads. Keep up the great work!

[@TheMightyFleming]

Love the fact that you used científic articles for this video essay, that was sublime

[@nienke7713]

I love how it really paints an accurate picture of religion and yet also makes it clear that this religious belief was fabricated and cultivated and despite what they believe Paul isn't actually some chosen one chosen by a supernatural power, in fact, he isn't even necessarily the one chosen by those who fabricated and cultivated the belief, but merely one of multiple options they considered to take on the role.

[@leesnotbritish5386]

But at the same time the material promise of the religion is true: “if we unify under a powerful individual and go to war we can take what we want”

[@respectthefish4992]

it's fabricated yet it helped the people hold together in unliveable circumstances

[@michellearzu1265]

But it was fabricated with questionable intent. That's why Paul answers with such anger, "is not hope!' Sure they're united, but by a false claim because everyone needs the spice and this people to go away / easily being manipulated.

[@SteveAmes]

Ah, what a fascinating story, Dune. I love the fabrication part. That they’ve been seeding the story for hundreds of years.

[@grantwithers]

funfact paul really was chosen by the lawd, and the lawd just worked through the rev mothers.

[@ArandomNutter]

No wonder Tolkien hated Dune

[@robingomez2628]

He did? Why?

[@BiPolarUrsus]

​@@robingomez2628to keep it kinda short. He thought it was too cynical. Tolkien was a very religious guy. The use of religion as a tool to control people made him..... uncomfortable.

[@calebschaeferrr]

Tolkien doesn’t believe religion to be an innately evil concept, therefore the thematic elements of dune rubbed him the wrong way. Herbert is pretty much the secular Tolkien

[@GillianKleiser]

Great video thank you. Only one comment on Herbert writing dune before all this research surfaced: it is very common and well documented that accepted theories ( especially in a sparsely experimental and complex field like psychology) take years if not decades to establish themselves among the general culture, it is completely possible that these religious theories were already floating around within the minds of a few luminaries of the science even before Herbert wrote this, it is entirely possible that himself (Herbert) developed his own beliefs after interacting with these people or reading about this, and then his dune books went to reinforce these theories among later psychology researchers.

[@PuissantPeacock]

Agreed. A number of us _were_ living back then and no, the specific scientific subject of _the psychology of religion_ was not a recognized science yet. In fact, "believers" called it apostate thinking, pastors actively squashed any such thinking, and Medicare wouldn't pay for treating victims of religious abuse. But that was to change. Over the last 40 to 50 years, false religion has perpetrated some of the most heinous, wicked crimes on humanity (especially children) causing what was later identified as symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) among other bizarre, never-before-seen behaviors. In order to accurately treat and decompress the victims of such crimes, the whole subject matter had to be _scientificaly_ studied, facts separated from fiction, and insurance codes assigned for treatments (I'm condensing a lot to shorten this comment). All of this was necessary so psychiatrists could properly identify the psychological harm, partly treat people correctly without doing more harm than good, and get paid for treating the victims. However, all of this took time but has grown into the scientific field of The Psychology of Religion and its associated (appropriate) psychiatric treatment of the victims.

[@AuralayKristine]

I'm reading the book right now and I"m fascinated by the Bene Gesserit and the Missionaria Protectiva.

[@SyniStar616]

Just wait until you get further in on the series. Things start getting really weird, and really interesting, in book 4.

[@BrandanLee]

@@SyniStar616 Things were always weird. They just got more so, lol.

[@big_sis_moon]

@@BrandanLee I mean, Dune was a little weird sure, but Heretics introduced the slig. That's next-level random

[@crezd5028]

@@SyniStar616nobody is ever ready for the worm-man

[@SyniStar616]

@@crezd5028 shh, don't spoil nothin, man. OP hasn't mentioned if they got that far yet or not.

[@D818FX]

This is by far the most organised concise ever on GMS. Citing actual sources, and break them down to be easily palatable is so appreciated. Thanks Drew.

[@kitsune303]

May thy nacho chip and shatter - Princess Irulan's "3rd Commetary on Guacamole"

[@ryokinor6223]

How did Frank Herbert have such insights? He is the Kwisatz Haderach! Actually it's more he just observed carefully, studied history and stated the obvious.

[@askani21]

Actually, Dune is a future-historical record based off Herbert's prescience! 😂

[@fredbear3915]

Wasn't Frank Jo McCarthy's cousin? In which case the family already knew how to manipulate large numbers of people towards your way of thinking and get evil stuff done as a consequence. They both used that understanding to further their own interests. Jo by making everyone believe he was uncovering closet communists, and Frank by writing and selling one of the greatest books ever written. I know which method I prefer!

[@Joetino]

@@askani21Sounds like Harkounen propaganda to me

[@TheIronDonkey]

Drew you cant upload the same time as Taylor. I cant watch them both at once- its not fair!

[@notbot2648]

You could if you believed hard enough! /jk

[@jasonstraussman5080]

Brilliant! As a former minister turned social worker I can't agree more with this analysis. In addition, as someone who has lived in comunes this tracks!

[@marcbernard1744]

I’ve watched a lot of Quinn’s Ideas on Dune. This video is, as far as my memory can recall, not something he’s covered this in depth. I know he hasn’t used the research papers you used. Loved it!

[@ericschlegel738]

May your career chip and shatter. Absolutely great new take. Since a child, I loved the old movie I’ve seen the series read the first book recently. I saw the hints of these takes on cultural phenomenon every time I watched the films. you have reinforced my choice to have Dune on the same level and shelf as Isaac, Asimov and Star Trek. thank you very much for your perspective.

[@fredbear3915]

Oooh no I have two shelves... Star trek is on the "Genius" one and Asimov and Herbert are on the "Utter Genius" one just above it!

[@paulgraunke6670]

Thanks for listing the resources used to support the thesis of the video. As a victim/survivor of a religious cult where membership entailed costly requirements, I was struck by one glaring lacuna in Sosis & Bressler's analysis of why religious communes last longer than secular ones. And that is, religious communes offer an incentive that secular communes cannot: the promise (or at least hope) of an afterlife. Defer gratification in this life for a big payoff in the next. I believe that is not an inconsequential factor that explains their longevity.

[@MagicSecretsandMysteries]

As it was written! It was prophesied Muad Dib will upload after a great eclipse to point the way.

[@davidwilliama.7296]

I still haven't seen Dune 2 yet, so I'll watch this once I've seen it.

[@andrewforte2018]

I highly recommend you watch it! Denis Villeneuve doesn't miss

[@SyniStar616]

I highly suggest rewatching part one before seeing part two, the refresher will help you feel up to speed while also priming you for the sit. It'll be the best film you see all year.

[@sumtinqueso5790]

Dune 2 has good actors but horrible pacing and story, but a lot seemed to enjoy it so I would recommend

[@chinkasuyaro8983]

@@sumtinqueso5790 Yeah, the actors and direction were able to make some of the moments in the film simply amazing and emotional. Then, they would time-jump and strip that feeling away from me.

[@andrewforte2018]

@@sumtinqueso5790 Man, I totally disagree about the story and pacing, but to each their own I guess.

[@NancyBessie]

Acres of almond trees lined the interstate highway which complimented the crazy driving nuts.

[@micheller3251]

Love this! If I have one video to recommend to someone about Dune, it will be this one. This story is based on real world issues, understanding these issues and how they're represented makes the critique of religion and colonialism impossible to miss. This is why I tell everyone in media studies they need to take more interest in human sciences.

[@jofox1186]

I really enjoyed this video. It was great to see you apply your knowledge of religion to a film/book. It feels like a fresh direction for your channel.

[@holdenglenn3985]

I will say this is inaccurate in one spot: Paul’s doesn’t know he’s going to win against feyd-rautha. In the book there are many moments of turmoil within his prescient visions where he sees many paths and does not know much. This is made even more indistinguishable in the presence of other prescient or slightly prescient being such as spacing guild members or Hasimir Fenring (who was at the fight in the book). In the original novel Paul actually describes the paths that lead from the fight. He fights for revenge and glory but does not know if he will win. He says that all paths lead to jihad and if he dies, they will praise him as a martyr and slaughter in his name and if he wins, they will say no one can stand against muad’dib and his grip will tighten. Just another interesting perspective on through the book, FANTASTIC video dude keep em coming these are endlessly fascinating.

[@robgronotte1]

He's not that Mahdi, he's a very naughty boy!

[@jessegibby9458]

After watching 2une for the first time, I turned to my friend and exclaimed “I Love Atheist Cinema!” We spent the next 4 hours delving into how this film explores religion in such a realistic way. This video is so needed, appreciated, and is exactly where I want the conversation around this film to lean. Thank you for your amazing work!

[@NightSentinel51]

"I don't care what you believe, I BELIEVE!" -Stilgar

[@shadherbert8058]

This video enhanced my appreciation of Frank Herbert’s depth of knowledge and writing. Thank you for making it. It is a true testimony to his mind that it can be discussed in relation to so many disciplines with historic and modern real-world studies. It will bring awareness in a present voice, whenever it is read.

[@lukaslambs5780]

I just started Heretics of Dune. Very curious what your thoughts on the book are (if you have any). Frank Herbert was very clear about how he saw messianic figures!

[@gnomechomsky2524]

I just finished Heretics of Dune. It was awesome

[@vafuthnicht7293]

I love your take, I always found the story and the cultural context of Dune fascinating and often recite the Benè Jesurite litany against fear; but your more detailed analysis about the depiction of religious function and psychology wasn't something I had explored much! Thank you for yet another insightful and informative video! Much love!!

[@UK_Canuck]

Excellent breakdown, Drew. I read Dune back when I was still a believing Christian. I can remember how uncomfortable it made me feel because I didn't like the way it challenged me about my own doubts in the face of my determination to believe. It took another ten years before I was ready to engage with that challenge. A further fifteen years on, I feel much more secure and at ease in my non-belief than I ever was in repressing my doubts because of a sense of obligation to believe.

[@starkillerx2020]

went through a similar journey through different means, im glad you found your footing ❤

[@Frodo1000000]

Even though I always was an atheist, (I'm mostly agnostic atm - but reading into NDE reports makes me think just of how much we just DON'T KNOW), you wrote that beautifully

[@CavalierNTX]

If you think escaping western culture is simply a case of not believing in it; then that in 'fact' says more about western culture than it does about 'religious belief' in any generality. You simply wont have that luxury of choice under Sharia Law or Globalism no matter how much theatrical science surrounds it. For better or worse, there is a reason that Christianity is far more fragmented than it's fellow Abrahamic traditions. The Biblical corpus of stories may be unfashionable today but outside of 'dogmatic zealotry' they once formed the basis of what used to be referred to as 'common sense'. One doesn't need to attend a church in order to believe in ones own ability to recognise the utility of 'goodness'. After all, if one doesn't have doubts then how are we to be sure we're not cowardly bigots all the same? *shit-eating grin*

[@cosmictreason2242]

If a person said he became a Christian because he read LOTR, you would mock him. Have some self awareness

[@CavalierNTX]

@@cosmictreason2242 Nobody needs a reason to mock Christians; but what about other faiths and their adherents? Lewis Carroll, C.S. Lewis and Tolkien were the OG woke before Marxism captured it and made it political.

[@oha1989]

This was very informative and honestly some ideas I hadn’t heard before so may your KZbin career flourish and get subscribed to!

[@Firemage0520]

This is a good video, though I think I should point out that a lot of this analysis I think is more directly applicable to the movie specifically, and therefore it’s more Dennis Villenue who should be praised for his portrayal of these things. No doubt these themes were implicitly present in the book, but I think the book was far more focused on critiques of messiah figures, or other charismatic heroes or leaders. For example in the books, the water collection thing wasn’t some arbitrary ritual. It was a long term plan put into place by the ecologist-turned-fremen Liet Kynes to eventually use all that water to terraform Arrakis into a planet with actual water and growing plants and wildlife, and this was a big part of the promise Paul made to the fremen in his assumption of the role of the lisan al gaib. In the books also Chani and others are not explicitly non-religious as they are portrayed in the movies. The martyrdom point is definitely the one I think made strongest in the book for sure, though it’s mostly through Paul’s prescience where he can see that the Jihad ahead would still continue even if he died (part of the nuance that is lost in the movies is that Paul never decides to cynically weaponize religion directly, but instead goes along with the course of things in the hope that he can somehow find a way to prevent the Jihad, which he of course inevitably fails to do)

[@IanZainea1990]

14:49 I don't think it's astounding. Most of modern science (and the scientific rigor of psychology is limited at best) is merely explaining common sense. Not discovering new and unexpected things. It's the quantification of everything qualitative in life. Just accepting that meditation is beneficial through centuries of experience isn't good enough, we need eeg studies and so on.

[@navidryanrouf441]

EXACTLY

[@Draxynnic]

I don't think it's actually that surprising that Frank was ahead of the literature on this one. As a journalist he might well have seen it in action (don't know enough about his career as a journalist to say), and he'd apparently stated that an intended moral of the story is that messiahs, even well-meaning ones, can be bad for your health. Odds are he knew exactly what he was doing, just that in his time it was probably easier to criticise religion through the medium of science fiction in the far future where the religion has only a passing resemblance to real-world beliefs, then it would be for a formal researcher to publish those observations in a scientific journal.

[@jrm371]

I will never tire of Dune content. From anyone.

[@doroginn]

Very nice! This is an excellent take that I never expected to come across in relation to Dune. Bravo, I really enjoyed this. Looking forward to checking out your other videos. 😊

[@PierreVieuxChat]

It seems Genetically Modified Skeptic didn't read the books. They depict religions even more accurately than in the film.

[@HeroicAge616]

The books aren’t required reading to comment on the movie

[@costelinha1867]

To be fair you don't need to read the books to understand the movie, that's kinda the point of an adaptation.... also most people won't have read the book anyways so...

[@S1ipperyJim]

​@costelinha1867 Dune is the best selling sci fi novel of all time. More than 20m copies sold... more people have read the novels than you think

[@murphygreen8484]

Ah. The KZbin algorithm spice must flow

[@ThoughtReset-rn1vi]

Nicely done. I loved your research and insights. You tied your points together well. Thanks.

[@northlight6759]

Rest assured, this analysis was entirely new to me! I haven't seen Dune 2 yet, so I guess I'd better. But you explained enough and I remembered enough from the book that it was okay. I was quite interested in the religious philosophy points. Gives me some insight into my own religion

[@CorwinFound]

One of my issues with Dune 2 is how they fast tracked the timeline. What took several years in the book became a matter of months in the movie. Although I understand why this was done, one of the results is that the Fremen appear a lot more fanatical. In the book Paul really does need to prove himself over and over. By the time he takes up the mantle of Maudi, he is very accepted by the Fremen and understands their society. In the movie it makes it seem like these were people who made him their prophet without reason. That they were extreme fundamentalists just waiting for someone to latch on to as an "excuse" to escalate violence and Jihad. Given western views on Islam, this is problematic. It reinforces really bigoted and discriminatory views of Muslim people. And Shani as the moderate/secular Fremen is shown to be powerless and ineffectual. Not a reality in the Muslim world as many or even the majority are or are moving towards more moderate stances. The movie does a great job of showing the beauty and egalitarian aspects of Fremen culture and religion but the in the end undercuts that with a timeline that makes them appear as extremists and unreasoned fanatics.

[@dominiccasts]

I think that would honestly have only been fixed if part 2 started with a time skip, with part 1 doing the work of justifying Paul's place, simply because the nature of movies is that whether the movie shows it being months or being years, the movie itself is still only a few hours long. The multi-year wait between movies would be IMO the only way to sell the time taken. Also, as pointed out in other comments, Dune has always kinda been "The Rise of Mohammed IN SPACE", from an exoticized and harshly critical lens (I mean the whole religious edifice is explicitly an artificial construct seeded by the Bene Gesserit to make their ability to control whole societies easier), so I'm not sure it can come off as not being problematic towards Islam.

[@CorwinFound]

@@dominiccasts I basically agree with all of that. All the alternatives create other problems cinematically or story telling wise. And the reality might be that Dune could never be told without issues of anti-Islam readings. And maybe even the book is Islamophobic. I'm not Muslim and don't feel I have the knowledge or experience to say yes or no on that. I still stand by the opinion that the accelerated timeline aggravates those issues though.

[@mattmorehouse9685]

​@@CorwinFoundyeah, we can see Dune as an anti Christian tale, but you had better not show it to be anti Islamic fundamentalism. Cause that blood soaked backwards ideology is stereotypically believed by brown people.

[@goclbert]

The truncation of the timeline is just to avoid the toddler Alia stuff. It's unfortunate from the standpoint of a post-viewing reflection but in the moment it *feels* like years have passed even though it is obviously not the case. Imo, the movie does a very good job of convincing the audience that Paul really is their Messiah up until the knife fight with Feyd that really drives home that even though he got through this, Paul is very mortal. The audience doesn't think the Fremen are gullible because the audience is very much along for the ride. This is contrasted with the very impersonal book where the reader never feels swept up in the fanaticism that the Fremen feel. You have to divorce yourself from the book and watch with fresh eyes.

[@benjalucian1515]

@@goclbert *The audience doesn't think the Fremen are gullible* Yes we do, because we _are_ along for the ride. We see from the beginning that the Fremen were set up with crazy prophesies to believe in anyone who comes to their planet and fits their messiah myths and both Jessica and Paul are aware of this control point from the beginning and we see how easily they are able to work the people to their control.

[@joeyd4211]

I wish the video started at the 0:50 mark

[@tomheadington4762]

5:35 i couldn't stop thinking bout life of Brian throughout the film 😭

[@angelc286]

I havent seen the movie but I’ve read the books so nothing can be spoiled for me ❤thank you for going over the secular vs religious context!

[@TheBullcrown]

As someone who grew up in religion but no longer practices, I’m always pleasantly surprised by videos like these that remind me there is a secular study of the nature of religion outside of the unverifiable or purely philosophical. Thanks for making this!

[@gavinhakes4859]

Me: Yeah I would never be manipulated by a charismatic leader Me, 5 minutes after leaving the theatre from Dune 2: LISAN AL-GAIB!!!

[@michaelcaboose8685]

Best video essay on Dune ive seen

[@kennystimpson2775]

I would love to see you have a conversation about dune and lotr with Jess of the Shire

[@QuintionWord]

Italy is my favorite country; in fact, I plan to spend two weeks there next year.

[@_abdul]

Villeneuve knows what he is dune.

[@thorthegodofthunder9150]

I hope you wormed up before making that dad joke

[@Drangir]

Wow what a take. I can't believe what I just did for algs rhythm.

[@TimNutting]

I very much enjoyed your take on it and think you nailed it. I watched the show and remembered my upbringing in fundamentalism quite well.

[@Iudayus]

this is fascinating thanks for the research!

[@tulpas93]

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

[@smergthedargon8974]

wow bro I saw the movie too