Should Thameslink be on the Tube Map?

[@jameslipscomb4916]

*Riding the Emirates Air Line* 'Yeah I'm on the tube'

[@TroyVan6654]

*Cable Car

[@matthewgibbons4525]

😂

[@ruslan10]

“Yeah you know the red one, or is it overground?”

[@UKDarkPredator]

Troy Van woosh

[@alexleo172]

*Driving the Bike Hire* Yep,this is the Tube

[@AlisonWheeler]

Crossrail should actually be called "Thameslink" as it links places along the Thames from Woolwich to Reading. Thameslink should actually be called "Crossrail" as it crosses London and the other rail lines (and the Thames).

[@DT-hg7te]

I once made the same argument. It makes sense!

[@cd0u50c9]

Makes perfect sense, I agree!

[@hotelmario510]

Galaxy brain.

[@Cloudrak]

Crossrail also crosses London however.

[@pascoekieran6180]

not to be pedantic but it is called the Elizabeth line, but yes u do make a valid point but I mean Crossrail does also cross london

[@DPodDolphin]

The current tube map currently folds out into '4 vertical rectangles'. If TFL just add another fold, they have 25% more map for Crossrail (the Elizabeth Line) and it will only be thicker by 1mm and it will still fit in your pocket.

[@terilyte3152]

+

[@maih9431]

Or make it half an inch taller.

[@sihollett]

or both! Though it should be said that, even though the map has usually been landscape, fitting all the stations on the e-w axis has been problematic. Eg Beck cut off East London really rather far in (between Mile End and Bow Road) on his first official map, instead just listing stations in a box (something not repeated for the Met beyond Rickmansworth on some versions - though he did show the Met as far west as that. Though even when there was a box, it omitted stations like Chorleywood that had regular daily service).

[@DPodDolphin]

Mai Blizzard i think that they need to make the map wider because, until Crossrail 2, there is going to be no new station that will exceed the current height. However, Crossrail will exceed the current width as it is going way further west than Hayes and Harlington

[@RayEttler]

but also 25% more expensive mate

[@alexdavis5766]

As a wheelchair user, having Thameslink on the tube map is a massive help as not only are all the stations accessible unlike the northern line that sort of follows it, the platforms for all the central london stations are raised so I don’t even need to get someone to put a ramp down to get on/ off. Had you told me 10 years ago id feel liberated and cry at being able to get on/ off a train without staff help, I wouldn’t have understood. I wouldn’t have known the line existed if it wasn’t on the map and I’m very grateful it’s on

[@radagastwiz]

Someone once made a 'London S-Bahn' map consisting of the Overground, Crossrail and Thameslink. When you look at that perspective, it certainly makes sense.

[@JBS319]

1) yes it should 2) yes TfL should operate Thameslink. Govia is an absolute disaster

[@themeparkreel]

TFL would do a way better job than Govia so yes please. Govia have been the bane of my life these past few weeks

[@helvettefaensatan]

Maybe you could de-privatise and make it all public, not competing?

[@cirbojasoft]

Could not help... pasteboard.co/Hq8wI8O.png

[@danielsadie3887]

Kyle Todd I totally agree with you.

[@henrybn14ar]

Thameslink was always problematic. A delay at Bedford will cause disruption at Brighton two hours later. The route needs to be cut back and separated from the national system to make it reliable.

[@PinderProductions]

I believe once the 'TFL Rail' line is Crossrail then they should rename the current map the 'TFL Rail Map' and have a sperate Tube Map with just Underground lines that have a symbol for each other TFL service they connect with like national rail is in the map now.

[@bigken6005]

At some point they might just have to bite the bullet and redo the format of the map because it's getting too crowded with Thameslink and Crossrail services coming into the fray. I prefer clarity than having everything crammed into one map.

[@PinderProductions]

Ken C. I agree, it feels like there is too much going on at times.

[@angrypacifist5782]

Pinder Productions I have been thinking that too but called the overground map (underground/overground) with the lines unimportant except for interchanges to be in the overground white/orange/white lines

[@CHEESYhairyGASH]

Have a two sided map, one with the underground lines and the other with the overground/ thameslink/ other stuff

[@jimtaylor294]

They could have underground services on one side of a duplex map, the overground services on the other, and just call it "Womble Map".

[@johnfbw79]

TfL is a public service which they fail to remember. They should be providing a map which is useful, not just one showing their services

[@Outfrost]

And it could help congestion on the Northern.

[@jimtaylor294]

True. Then again TFL has been a mess in more recent terms. It's slso odd that despite "price freezes" & subsidy; the TFL buses in Hillingdon are more expensive per day and less user frendly... than the wholly private owned Stagecoach service up here in Bedfordshire. (having used both before the pandemic)

[@Ulleskelf]

I think Thameslink should go on, but then all railway services (Southern, Southeastern, GWR) within the London boundary should go on. So perhaps it is time to replace the Tube map with the 'London Rail and Tube services' map

[@tobysummers471]

Ulleskelf I agree. Or at least call it TFL Services Map or that’s even better.

[@whoisfrnkl]

tbf they already have one on the tfl site (tube and rail maps > national rail) , its quite confusing for someone who doesn't live in london (e.g. tourists)

[@mikekirwan5326]

you know that’s a thing right? if you get a big tube map and it has 1 on the front with the tube and national rail in london, and a south eastern region national rail map on the back

[@tobysummers471]

Francis Taylor I only said that because yet Crossrail is not the Tube neither the Overground or Trams etc the DLR and everything else not the Underground. It’s not TFL and saying Tube map is mis leading because these services aren’t the tube. I know about the current map with rail and other things etc. However the Thameslink Core section is in London and it is very useful. Putting it on the map could change travel patterns etc. The fact things are intergrated together make this more useful. I’m not saying the sections to Brighton etc should be on the map. Just the core section. If anything let’s say NSE still existed then it would probably still be on there.

[@Outfrost]

Berlin has all of DB's regional services on their Liniennetz map

[@marthaanderson2656]

I always imagined that the average user of the "tube map" is a tourist, like myself. I think I have one that is folded up with my oyster card and I use it every year when I visit. I would hate to have to use a larger map, the little trifold is so handy and fits inside, when folded in half, my oyster card wallet. I have to say, however, I am unfamiliar with Thameslink and what it really offers and perhaps that is because it is not on the tube map. If the job is moving people from one point to another, seems to me TFL can unbend a little and put this line on the map so people have options on their journey choice.

[@mikeearle3219]

1988... 'We're going to roll forward a year...' and it's December 1998. Has Geoff accidently revealed his secret that he's actually Doctor Who? :D

[@JeroenvanMontfort]

Perhaps. At 1:20, he says 1998, at 1:47, it's 1989 and at 1:59, we're back in 1998.

[@MQsCues]

Glad I'm not the only one weirded out by this!

[@MQsCues]

Silverlink Metro on it, so it's definitely not 1989...

[@JamesTheBell1]

So THATS's how he got around the underground in a record time!

[@JSGRanks]

Who else is watching this video cause it's now on?

[@JoeGrohlDJ]

0:30 We start with map 1 from 1988 1:13 "We're gonna roll forward a year." Out comes map 2 from... 1998 1:44 Still on map 2, "But here, in 1989..." 1:56 Finishing up with map 2, "So this is December 1998." I'm confused... As for the argument, I don't think Thameslink should be on the Tube map but I do agree the Tube map should be renamed the TfL map. I also think the Rail & Tube map needs to be more visible, as I can't say I've seen it on the network much and it seems a lot of people don't even know it exists.

[@tumainitiger4655]

"A few problems" understatement of the year lol also yes it should probably be on the Tube map as many people in central London seem to forget it exists

[@maryapatterson]

I have an old paper map showing the tubelines etc and all the British rail services that stop and start out of London. It is really useful since if you only leave London occasionally by train, it tells you by what mainline station you need to use etc. These maps with all the lines on are especially useful when they are strikes because it shows alternative routes instead of trying to get in an overcrowded bus!

[@Mandarinen]

I know I'm (exactly!) a year behind on commenting on this, but as a Swede planning a trip to London, I like your videos about "trains, tubes and trams". It makes me get into the mood for my trip and I learn a lot. I find it weird that you have different companies for ordinary public transport in London. Over here in Sweden it's one company per county owned by the counties (There are more companies for trains and buses if you travel on a national level.). Stockholm is a far smaller city than London of course, but we have all the trains, tubes and trams on one map and the same travel card goes for all of it and there are no zones so same prize wherever you go. (Not sure there even is a map covering all the buses though.)

[@TechRyze]

I stayed in Cricklewood for a month in 2017, and in my naivety I had no idea about the wonders of Thameslink. I jumped through so many hoops getting to London Bridge, when I could have just walked up the road and jumped on one of those fantastic trains. I always use the full rail and tube map now, but back then the big map was just confusing. Loads more people would use Thameslink if it was on the tube map, so decide whether that's a good or bad thing. A lot of newer arrivals to London, or tourists don't know about it, as it's only on the huge spaghetti rail map.

[@SuperPalmin]

I love your videos, and I especially like that you show old Tube Maps for context and to show how it evolves. For an "outsider" who is not too familiar with all the tube stations, it would be great if you could highlight what you are explaining when showing the maps fullscreen. On a phone, I have no chance of finding out where I need to look at. Anyway, keep up the good work!

[@kimmadsen9811]

love the fact that you saved old tube maps. that is just one of the reasons why I think your videos er so good.

[@stephenholt4670]

Thameslink should be on the tube map, and so should National Rail lines covered by Oyster. There's no discernible difference in service pattern between those and many Overground services. Let's not discriminate here.

[@fetchstixRHD]

There's the London Rail services map (content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf ) that exists, so really you'd just be getting rid of the separate Tube map.

[@henryyuill1382]

All Airport Express Services should show on the tube map. Like at Farringdon, it says Trains to Gatwick and Luton Airport. Doesn't have to show the intermediate stops

[@woodenpotato7550]

So I went to London this weekend (fantastic city btw), and when I took the Tube map it felt too crowded. Personally, I didn't need to know that the Overground, the DLR, the Trams, "TfL Rail", Thameslink, etc. exist, or even the outermost parts of the Tube, but I understand this is important both for the destination of trains and for people actually going there. So what I propose is to have multiple maps: one that is available at all stations (both from TfL and from the National Rail) in which all services (Tube, Overground, DLR, Crossrail, National Rail, etc.) are shown, and "specialised" maps showing only the Tube, the DLR, Overgound, Crossrail, or the Trams. Those could be available at TfL stations, with less maps of the services not going through that station. So, for example, at Stratford there would be many more maps of the Tube, Overground, DLR, Crossrail, and National Rail than maps of the Trams, while in stations like Burnt Oak or Hornchurch there would be many Tube maps and some of the Overground. This way, the Tube map would be much less congested, becoming much mor user and tourist-friendly, and all services would have their own map, either with all other rail services (great for efficient travel), and on their own. Also, TfL already has made all the maps: tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/national-rail - The one with all rail services tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/dlr - The map of the DLR, which shows routes better than the actual Tube map tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/overground - The map of the Overground tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/tram - The map of the Trams, which as the DLR one shows better the routes tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/tfl-rail - And the map of TfL rail, which now is a bit pointless but when Crossrail is finished, and specially if Crossrail 2 is built and/or Thameslink taken over by TfL; it could be very handy So no, Thameslink should not be added to the Tube map, or at least to this "version" of it

[@mukrifachri]

I'm not from London (not even from the UK !), but two things I'd note : 1. The map is... pretty full, as you said in another video. 2. There's the TfL Rail & Tube services map. 3. TfL is about to operate services well beyond M25. Based on these two, I'd argue for a "London" local map and "Greater Greater London" map... one for stuff well within the M25 and the other for stuff up to well outside the M25 but is a significant outer suburb for London (ie. Reading, Medway valley, Southend, even Brighton). One would replace (or augment) the current TfL map, one would be an entirely new map that shows all the opportunity people have for their journey to London.

[@vicsams4431]

Hi Geoff, love the videos. Did you know that when TfL took over the Overground and changed the old BR double arrow symbols for LT roundels, that TfL was acting illegally ? (When BR was privatised @ 1993, it was agreed that all BR stations (and new ones like Tweedbank in Scotland) would display the BR double arrow symbol so that passengers would know what stations BR tickets were valid on.) I bet that was a bit of consumer info that you missed ! LOL.

[@MA9494AM]

Let the selected lines that continues outside London end with arrows where the map (TfL) ends. If we are looking at maps at the website they might as well put all local transport on it and have boxes that you can tick on/off types of transport (Buses, Tram, DLR, Tube, Overground, Crossrail, Commuter trains)

[@MrGreatplum]

If TFL take over Thameslink, they would undoubtedly do a better job - but, should services to Brighton, Horsham, Peterborough etc be run by the London Mayor and the assembly when it’s well outside their jurisdiction!

[@Emma-vn8xf]

I mean, I'm cool with it. Can't be worse than almost every train I've wanted to get since the timetable change being cancelled/delayed/altered.

[@stephenholt4670]

True, that has been a disaster. Thameslink was reasonably good prior to that though. I think it is the timetable switch itself which has caused such mayhem.

[@BlueAxeRacer]

I don't think they would do a better job. The only way to produce innovation is to create more competition not less.

Rhys Benjamin not that I have any sympathy for GTR but it's quite a complex route so I don't know how well tfl could handle it, although it would be hard to be worse than now

[@DT-hg7te]

St Neots passenger here: I'd absolutely be happy with TfL taking over, I'd wager more than half of St Neots passengers are London bound anyway.

[@raakone]

Also, strictly speaking, the line from Moorgate to Finsbury Park is mostly a "tube" line, as in the trains go through cylindrical tunnels, it's just, since October of 1975, hasn't been a "Tube" line. Most of what's in tunnel still has 4th rail, although out of use. And they still, or at least did until recently, use the Tunnel Telephone system, inherited from the Tube (There's also Tunnel Telephone wires still in Overground's East London tunnels)

[@PeterGrant]

Possible answer: Only services valid for oyster/contactless for the whole length are shown on the map. So if you can use contactless at Reading for Crossrail, fair game. If Thameslink wants to appear, roll out contactless to all the stations and it goes on. I expect TFL gets a cut of fares if they are handled via the Oyster/contactless payment system, so it that would help with the argument over it being a competing company.

[@dansmith4601]

2:24 so weird to see massive gaps in the old maps such as between Highbury and Islington and Stratford, and also from Hammersmith to Paddington and from Richmond to Shepherd's Bush.

[@stevevasta]

Also, after all the changes, it's a shock to see the old map with the Central Line as a straight horizontal axis, without any hitches!

[@oyst]

I'm more than willing to race you from Kentish town to Elephant and Castle!

[@AdityaJaokar]

I am going to try out that challenge.

[@smilerjerg]

Thameslink definitely belongs on the "Tube" map. I think of the Tube map more as a high-frequency getting around London map - and on that basis, Thameslink is the fastest way to do several north-south journeys. A lot of the Overground and suburban routes don't provide the same high-frequency convenience, so I'd take them off/not add them. They'd still be on the larger London Connections map (as I know it - Geoff used a different name) though, and calling it an Oyster/contactless map would make a lot of sense!

[@AzureOtsu]

Don't get rid of the tube map, Just add a second map with the majority of London services and place it right next to the tube map in stations, Call it something like Extended tfl map

[@geimzz]

It takes a couple minutes longer with the Northern line, but considering that the National Rail station is a bit further away from Elephant and Castle itself than the tube station, it evens out a little

[@geimzz]

Bungle2010 isn't elephant and castle just the roundabout (now just a hook)? If so, the tube is right there, while the train station is a couple minutes walk from it

[@audigex]

Thameslink and Crossrail (especially with upcoming Crossrail 2) is clearly turning into an RER style network, it makes perfect sense for the three to be operated together

[@peterellis9105]

You used to get a paper map called London Connections which showed everything in London. Haven't seen them in years

[@1973Washu]

Is there a Beck style map of all rail services in London? That could be quite a useful thing to have, even if it might need to be the size of a small paperback.

[@fayezch5]

Greg, if Thameslink were to be added, would you then not to have to includes the SouthWestern, Southern. etc. services that are in the Travel Zones you can tap in & out of? With showing the Elizabeth Line (sorry..) on the map, will this be run by TFL? Great vid, as ever.

[@DoubleDeckerAnton]

I agree....it is utter confusion! Thanks for bringing this up! Great video Geoff!

[@LouisOnAir]

Well the oyster map has arrows for further destinations but within/around London (Gatwick and the like), all rail services can be navigated by oyster-card. If TfL were to take over Thameslink I'd hope I could get from the end of the line to London with an oyster-card.

[@teg24601]

I see no reason to not have Thameslink, with a "continued beyond" symbol on the extremes where it leaves the Greater London area. What I would like to see is the Overground, organized into individual lines, so it is much easier to understand, making Overground the mode, just like Crossrail is the mode.

[@SormonAusPol]

Also can we really call the old cut and cover lines (Metropolitian/ Distric Line ect.)tube lines since they don't move though tubes.

[@geofftech2]

Yes. it's the given name for Underground services. cut & cover included.

[@mittfh]

Given increasing numbers of passengers have Smartphones, perhaps in addition to the paper map, there could be an App version of the Oyster map, with the option to show any combination of 'layers' of services (Underground, Overground, Wombling Free, DLR, Thameslink, Crossrail) - maybe even a journey planner where you tell it where you want to go in London (using Location Services to determine where you currently are), and it shows you the top 3 combinations of routes to get there (maybe even including buses and walking).

[@DavidZhuYH]

I have a large 1999 version of Central London Journey Planner (I think it was put inside the carriage) which interestingly, has both the Thameslink (and Northern City Line) and Jubilee Line Extension

[@20quid]

Thameslink occupies the same niche as Crossrail, a commuter railway service with "tube-like" frequency running through Zone 1. So it would make a lot of sense to fold Thameslink into TfL as it is basically already a north-south Crossrail line.

[@darrengomes2203]

Things are becoming much more blurred now. Until TfL was created, LT rail services were very definitely separate from BR and kept that way on the maps. Only connections were shown, such as Thameslink and the GN Electrics line between Moorgate and Finsbury Park. The original plan for Crossrail was for it to be a BR service, but with track/tunnel/stations shared with LT, running two separate services. LT Tube only running in the main zones. But then Ken Livingstone wanted an orbital rail service and created the Overground, incorporating the East London Line into the North London Line, after the extension of the East London Line (as a Tube line) had been announced. So now the map's becoming complicated and really, there should be two now, the Tube Map and an Overground Map, that should include the National Rail services such as Thameslink. The Overground services need to be separated into their own named lines as well, so having it's own map will free it up to do so.

[@sebwilkins]

And on the 1998 map aldwych was shown plus shoredich nut there abbandoned right?

[@Fluteboy]

2:18 - When the Stratford to North Greenwich section of the Jubilee Line opened, it seemed like such an oddity - a line that just took you from one armpit to another armpit! A bit like having an airline between Scunthorpe and Tashkent.

[@victoriajames586]

That is a bit harsh on Tashkent.

[@StrangoFilm]

i kinda feel like for a lot of people these maps aren't necessary, because apps like google maps make planning a journey so much easier

[@unknownartist7204]

Geoff i was just wondering, have you been around West Croydon up to roughly Epsom since the changes? The auto announcer's keep calling the southern services Thameslink services, its kinda odd right?

[@rainbowbus559]

I've got the 1988 Journey Planner on my phone as a case but it's got Stratford international on it.

[@PrograError]

I think TFL need another map for all those lines like overground and whatnot but maybe add additional interchange roundel for national rail stations to show that you could connect to those and maybe a very faint line for Thameslink services so that people know the line is in the "zone" but not quite.

[@fuzzynutter8344]

I suppose it’s where do you draw the line in including National Rail services on the map. I can understand Overground lines being included because while it’s a NR service, it’s confined within London and forms part of the London ‘metro’ rail network along with LU, tram and DLR services. However, with Crossrail services within the London area being included on the map perhaps the precedent has been set and that all NR services within London should be added, not just Thameslink. But how crowded would the map become! It’s already a bit full with Overground and Crossrail on it.

[@LVCHO07]

What do you think about the notice that came (At least in Argentina) a couple of weeks ago, that TFL wants to take charge of the subway of Buenos Aires, replacing the current operating company.

[@JamesBrown-zu8iv]

You're right Geoff! It was more than 20 years ago! Even those passengers ac-complaining Thameslink and other rail services cause big time! Like Cancellations, Delays, and Destruction Services with Summer Railways Timetable of May 2018 - are hell for all of us as we face all our nightmares!

[@craggy4749]

Hello. You’ve just reminded me. What app / map did you use for the ‘All the stations’ series on your phone? Cheers.

[@schall3603]

The arguement you make about the Oyster services map raises another point. At some point, that switched from the more helpful "which London terminals do these trains stop at" (which is the version you showed on screen at 5:28), to the less helpful "which trains companies run trains to various places", and that just added meaningless colour mess to the map, and made it harder to see where you need to go to get somewhere outside of London...

[@dcseain]

I live near Washington DC. Here, CharmCard (Baltimore) and SmartTrip (DC) cards are used interoperable on: Washington Metro, MetroBus, VRE, MARC, Baltimore Metro, Baltimore Light Rail, and 10 other regional bus services. One region, one form.of payment for all transit services. VERY easy. Just make sure enough is in your card to cover the service you're using. Oyster should work like that for at least Greater London, if not the larger region IMHO. We here in Washington-Baltimore want more cities' transit to intereroperate for contactless payment.

[@olivergray1367]

Isn’t it interesting how on old tube maps, the lines under construction are shown but we don’t have this today for Crossrail?

[@RailwayProductions-nd3tx]

@Geoff Marshall When will the next tube map be out? As at some point (of which I do not know) need to obtain the may 2018 map.

[@FoxCutter]

The Tokyo metro map is like that, it has a number of different privately owned railway lines on it and is a full sized page.

[@dansmith4601]

0:53 why doesn't the map show thameslink services to West Hampstead. Is it because the station hadn't opened yet or is it because the two sttions are relatively far away from eachother

[@PlanetoftheDeaf]

Yes, the Thameslink core (Elephant to Kentish Town or even West Hampstead seeing that it's an important interchange) should be on the Tube map. It's ridiculous to exclude such a key service from the map which many visitors rely on, but include services to the likes of Cheshunt instead. When Crossrail opens, a key interchange station will be Farringdon. Incidentally the Moorgate to Finsbury Park line should also be on the map (it has a key interchange with the Overground at Highbury & Islington), but that's another topic!

[@busmanbrett135]

I can't believe that the 1998 (or 1999) tube map looks like the tube map we have now!

[@jamieslifee]

it feels like this came out yesterday 🥰 Edit: changed emoji smh

[@zeddessell]

The last time Thameslink services appeared on the tube map was in February 2003. This was when the Central and Waterloo & City lines were closed due to the 1992 stock being modified after the Chancery Lane derailment. The Thameslink was put there as sort of compensation for the Central line being closed.

[@erik_griswold]

I wonder if the Northern City Line was on the Tube map in 1988 because at the time the Northern Line was in such poor shape?

[@Thegamr91]

Is there anywhere I can buy that all the stations poster behind Geoff in the video?

[@dda40x]

Yes, it should be there. The distinction between TfL and non-TfL services, and even between underground and normal railroad, is very interesting for railway nerds like us watching these videos. But the key idea is to allow people to go where they want to quickly and efficiently, regardless of mode. Thameslink is functionally the same kind of thing as Crossrail, and to an extent Overground. For both of those, the fact that people don't know that it's a rail line instead of a tube line is really feature, not a bug. It's about extending the easily understood, frequent and reliable model of tubes to other services. There's no part in this that does not apply to Thameslink (except for reliable right now...). It might make sense to change the small folding map so that it only shows zones 1-3 (or something), with a big map with everything also available.

[@sihollett]

Thameslink is NOT the same thing functionally as Crossrail (sic). The Elizabeth takes stopping services from each side of London to the far side of the CBD. Thameslink, sure does do that with 5/12 services (it's via Elephant services and Luton-Rainham), but most of it is outer suburban (if not regional), 0-or-1-stops between Z1 and Z6 (or beyond) paired with other such services - it's functionally a step further out. If Thameslink is a Crossrail, then the Elizabeth line is a tube line - the differences between the latter are less than between the former.

[@jayja45]

I wish Waterloo East was still shown on the map, linking with Southwark station.

[@asbood112]

Unfortunately Geoff, you made a minor geographical error. You said ‘to the north towards Bedford, Horsham and Peterborough’, however Horsham is south of London and you take the branch line just south of Three Bridges station to get there. For the maps, I think every scheduled service to/from/in London should be put on what is currently called ‘the Tube Map (the TfL map)’ and that the companies could pay money to appear on the map (like advertising). Alternatively, it could be like a rail services map just for London in any case where all the train companies work together to create the map with TfL. For example, if you were travelling from St Pancras (northbound beyond Bedford), the map could read ‘East Midlands Trains - Sheffield/Nottingham’. Another example, if you travelling from Victoria station the line to Brighton could read ‘Southern - Brighton’.

[@ridethenorthernline4160]

It is obvious that Thameslink is part of the Central London Rail network, and should be on the "Tube" map. If we take Paris as an example, Thameslink and Crossrail/ Elizabeth Line are equivalent to the RER lines A and B. RATP (Paris City Transport) show both lines which they operate together with lines C, D, and E which are operated by SNCF (the French national rail operator). RATP produce a Metro (Paris city) Map and a larger regional Paris map showing all commuter lines. On the Metro map, the RER lines are just shown as going further out with an arrow. It is not rocket science Crossrail is based on the Paris RER system we just have to look at how that is reflected on their maps.

[@RichardWells1]

Great angle with rail map in shot. Nice to see you're an OS map fan!

[@ib9rt]

I always used to like the old "London Connections" map that showed every rail service in London. That map was also good in that it had two sides: one side for the dense services in the core, and the other side for the outer suburban rail services. Perhaps they should bring that back, rather than trying to squeeze everything onto one single map?

[@Ass_Burgers_Syndrome]

Yeah that was a good one, I'm surprised Geoff didn't mention it here.

[@MaxsTrainspotting]

They could make the pocket map larger and make the lines and the other services on the map smaller to fit the crossrail inside the map

[@IndigoJo]

I thought it made sense to add Thameslink to the Tube map and not to take it off -- it's included for information as it's a rail link that runs underground and connects Blackfriars, Farrington and King's Cross (as was, now St Pancras) and it connected to the original Moorgate-King's Cross branch line (now closed) which ran alongside the Metropolitan Line. It doesn't make sense to include it all the way to Bedford or Brighton, just across central London. I'm not in favour of including every TfL rail line (e.g. the old Great Eastern suburban line), just the Underground and a few connecting rail services in and around central London (hence the inclusion of the old GN Electrics from Moorgate to Finsbury Park, which used to be an Underground line).

[@anotherdelta]

One thing I’m stuck here wondering is why Crossrail (or LizRail as I like to call it) is not just part of the Overground. Does it have to do with train length? However, to fit with the growing services (TFL taking over GoVia would be nice), I think that the overground should not be split up into many ‘Railines’, and they could still call Crossrail the Elizabeth Line, But they should modify it to be the ‘Elizabeth Railine’ instead. Although I would prefer TFL to make it the ‘Readfield’ railine or the ‘Readwood’ railine (Reading to Shenfield or to Abbey Wood).

[@GOML27]

@Geoff Marshall at 01:45 you made a mistake. This map you’re reviewing is from 1998, not 1989

[@EditorVJAS]

New office position works. Having the map behind you fits. Perhaps they should return to the journey planner name for the foldouts. Personally I'd prefer it on the map, but not being there due to different ownership does make sense.

[@henryvonrintelen3748]

For us non Londoner’s how is the Overground different from the underground apart from being over ground and with different stock? Are the services not offered as frequently? Are the trains longer?

[@norbitonflyer5625]

Overground is generally not as frequent as the Underground, although there are exceptions (Surrey Quays to Dalston is very much more frequent than Woodford - Hainault!). Trains on both the Underground and Overground vary in length from four to eight carriages, depending on the line.

[@angrypacifist5782]

There should be two maps. One with the underground, dlr and tram and other with overground, Crossrail and national rail services. On both maps you would still be able to see the connections between the routes on either map as the routes on shown on each other map will in overground orange parallel colour

[@RoddyJenkins]

“TfL Journey Planner” for future pocket maps? Then ALL services - Tube, DLR, Crossrail/Elizabeth Line, London Overground, Thameslink - could feature. Oh and yes, we DO want a pocket size fold out Map....unless you want to create a smartphone app for us, Geoff...

[@richardtalbot8769]

Did I miss the poll? Istr probably wrongly that city thameslink is the only station in zone 1 that doesn’t have a corresponding tube service. So a tourist wouldn’t know how to get to it using the TFL map.

[@ianmurray250]

The tube map has always been a quick guide to London travel links. It should be a public service guide containing every link the visitor needs

[@TheTransportHub17]

Great video Geoff and Thameslink should appear on the map as it goes to two airports and other key places.

[@JayJay-nc7pr]

The Thameslink is essentially an express version of the Northern line between Elephant & Castle/London Bridge to Kentish Town, however the line belongs to a rival network: Thameslink itself so TfL won’t put it on the map for that reason, they don’t want naive tourists or visitors to know of a faster version of the Northern line that isn’t operated by TfL it’ll mean loss of revenue, Crossrail is different since it is TfL owned so they, yes Crossrail is a express version of the Central and District lines, but it’s not as extensive, as you said Thameslink goes to loads of places far beyond London, Crossrail’s furthest point is Reading, I think Thameslink should have their own rival map: The T-Link Map and display the map in TfL stations.

[@raakone]

Was "I was on the Orange Line" person on the East London Line? That WAS the Orange Line of the Tube before the end of the 00's when it was converted to 3rd rail mainline.

[@thomasfeild8380]

If TfL took over Thameslink, it would be logical for it to be part of the Crossrail network. The Elizabeth Line would 'cross' London from west to east, and the Thameslink line would 'cross' London from north to south. They would both have a purple roundel and would be shown on maps by the purple parallel lines. However, since the whole of Crossrail as it stands today is now branded the 'Elizabeth Line', how do you think they would integrate the north-south line into the system? I would propose that they replace all Elizabeth Line roundels for Crossrail ones, keep the Elizabeth Line name for the east/west route and give the north/south route a different line name under the Crossrail mode. But then again, North London Line is never signposted on the Overground.

[@gmfinc18]

Hi Geoff, you must have missed this then, released this May it's the new "Rail and Tube Map" that will apparently go up at all the stations in London regardless of service provider. Love it or hate it, it's the new one. Doubt it'll fit in your pocket as easy though. content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

[@john_smith1471]

I've always liked and used the all area Tube and Rail map, even easier now with PDF versions, it used to be called The London Connections Map, I have some early versions. With Gatwick and Shenfield now under Oyster, it makes sense to have a combined map as standard.

[@jg-7780]

Where can I find a pdf of that UK rail map behind you? It looks awesome!

[@Trockenshampooleopard]

Why not have two maps? One map for tube, DLR and tram where the mainline trains (Crossrail, Thameslink, Overground) are only shown as thin lines without stations, and one for the big boy trains where it's the other way around. I saw this in Hanover and found it pretty clever.

[@glenstransportvideos]

Nice video and I like your tube maps and what editing do you use

[@Inkyminkyzizwoz]

Funnily enough, I had been thinking that Thameslink and Crossrail could possibly be considered as one network. If you imagine drawing an 8-point compass then Thameslink and the two Crossrail lines would provide mainline cross-London rail services along every possible straight line of it (if you include the proposal of extending them up the WCML - does anyone know what the status of that idea currently is?): North-South - Thameslink East-West - Crossrail 1, Reading/Heathrow-Shenfield Northwest-Southeast - Crossrail 1, Tring-Abbey Wood Northeast-Southwest - Crossrail 2

[@michaelrobinson166]

In April 1999, my eyes bled from the gap between the Victoria and Central lines.

[@RoseRodent]

Well my perspective as someone who needs the step free access maps, as many options as possible need to be on the map so that when they take away the inaccessible stations it's not just the jubilee extension, DLR, Green Park and Westminster. Obviously there are a few others, but I'm always coming from City Airport and going to zone 1. Come on Crossrail, I'll finally be able to go into the middle bit!

[@Lynxfan2]

November 1999 Map - You just stated Liverpool Street to Finsbury Park! It is Moorgate to Finsbury Park. Also Horsham is to the south of London and not the north of London. Kind regards, Peter Skuce.

[@SiVlog1989]

Well, it's an open secret that TFL want to add all the suburban services out of the remaining London terminals to the Overground network. The passengers using them have a higher customer satisfaction than Southern or GWR for example. I believe that the Overground should have its own bespoke map highlighting where passengers can change for Crossrail, tube or DLR, otherwise the map would be incomprehensible. The tube map works as itself, a topographical map of the underground. However with the DLR, Overground and soon the whole of Crossrail added, the map will be so cramped that something will have to give

[@boiboiboi201]

Me: Sees Aldwych Branch on the thumbnail ready. Also me: *instant click*

[@alexleo172]

No,it's *_s t r a n d_*

[@outwood1]

Yes i think that Thameslink should be cut back to serve only the Greater London area plus Luton and Gatwick Airports. Lines south of Gatwick can be served by Southern whilst those north of Luton Airport / Luton could be served by East Midlands train possibly in conjunction with of the electrified Corby service with some trains terminating, as now, at Bedford. If you get lines starting from over 50 miles north or south of the Capital and running the equivalent distance beyond the Capital, you are importing a considerable amount of risk to train service reliability. With the Elizabeth Line the furthest point from London will be Reading at 36 miles with all other destinations being a lesser distance from London, plus the network is considerably more restricted than Thameslink lines.

[@peterprincic2830]

What do you think of the Jug Cerovic's map of London?

[@thetrainhub390]

This aged well