Giving Up On My 40k Competitive Dreams!

[@EonsOfBattle]

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[@RanjakarPatel]

never give up yaar. i very proud four u like son. u need be strongly four xcelent result. maybe read more the book four destroy opponent and make sadness there future four never play again. remember you have india support you. so you can crush every enemy my dear. i will help four you find wife.

[@HauntedCorpseGaming]

Love the content man, nothing wrong with playing casual games more often and not sweating the details as much.

[@pabloalonsolasagabaster658]

you finally beat shawn ?!?!?!?!?!?!? At last my man, at last... Congrats!!

[@billdefranza4927]

🎉

[@arielrueda7258]

He did once before, this is the second time

[@radiumminis]

I know thats gotta feel better then winning a tourney :D

[@neeeeeeeek9]

fluff>>>>>>>meta

[@GoufinAround_]

Dude, competitive play in a game that takes such high financial investment just seems like a fast way to ruin any fun that can be had

[@Dram1984]

GW is going to get bit hard when more people realize this and all the competitive whales move on to the next big thing.

[@whealler100]

thats why you have to buy a top 5 army or just cry

[@klaykid117]

They saw the money MTG made and knew they had to have even a small piece of that pie

[@drewbakka5265]

​@@klaykid117 Excatly it's slowly turning into mtg. And card players are the lowest of animals

[@11AleZZ]

​@@Dram1984what are you talking about?? Competitive 40k is a thing the last 20 years and each year is more popular

[@MephistonSniffsBloodpowder]

I think one thing that would make 40,000 10x more fun almost instantly would if it adopted Killteams alternative activation "you use a unit, I use a unit" turn type. Way more fluid and interactive that "you take your entire armies' turn where you either wipe 50% of your opponents army or do nothing because they've hid it all behind cover"

[@redfatherfigure]

Hey, newbie to the channel here. I've been wargaming my whole life. I grew up doing it with my dad (who is mainly into historicals) and I branched out to 40K. I got into competitive play on a whim and started organizing events in my local scene when the TO moved away. Fast forward and I'm judging the LVO championships (including the infamous "Tony got Tony'd" incident live on stream). I contributed to the FLG Code of Conduct. I playtested for GW. I championed and designed the paint rubric that raised the competitive 40K hobby standard years before "Battle Ready" was a thing. I truly love all the friends I made in the hundreds (if not thousands) of hours I spent volunteering and working behind the scenes to help the scene grow and thrive. I've supported new players just getting into the game, and I've dropped a banhammer on bad actors. I absolutely love narrative and casual play. If anything, narrative play is some of the most fun and compelling gaming I've ever enjoyed. It is so much harder to do narrative play than competitive play. I've created gaming events from massive apocalypse games with 10+ players to story-driven one-shot campaign events at gaming conventions. I've run multi-system campaigns using space games, skirmish games, 2K points battles, and Aeronautica Imperialis. To date after 30 years I have only been able to fully finish one narrative league. I bring all this up because there's always this pseudo war between "narrative" and "competitive" gamers in 40K about which is better or the right way to play. It's not an either/or. Each has its benefits and drawbacks, and much of it has more to do with the people you are gaming with than the game type itself. So, yeah, tournaments may not be for you. I see zero issue with that. I do want to point out, however, how it got you out there gaming and you found the joy in the process. That's something that I love about competitive play. It always got me out there DOING the hobby and engaging with people. Maybe pushing yourself to "compete" at a tournament isn't your style, but going to a tournament isn't always about winning. I've never missed winning, but I have missed the relationships and the energy it brought to my hobby. If I could offer you one piece of advice, it would be that you can hack the idea of matched play and tournament attendance to kick your hobby into high gear. What that looks like will depend on what you enjoy, and as long as you keep enjoyment at the center of it, you can get a lot out of it.

[@Bluewater1976]

I like the game, I don’t like the tournament scene and the outsized influence it has on the game overall.

[@dr.revenue3636]

Yeah couldn't have said it better myself. I did a couple tournaments and it really made 40k unfun to me...meta gaming 40k just doesn't get me going but I do understand folks who are into it.

[@bigtimepartytim]

Why does it ruin anything for you? Like if you are really a beer hammer kind of guy, why do you even care about getting the rules right or anything? Just like put your minis on the table, roll some dice, and have fun. Nothing about that has changed. The least fun I have ever had in this hobby is arguing my cousin over unclear LOS, cover, and movement rules in 9th. The most fun I have had is playing with new people, meeting new friends, and enjoying the strategic depth of the game and being able to call a judge to help us learn niche rules interactions if we get stuck on something.

[@dr.revenue3636]

@@bigtimepartytim Sorry, that didn't like turn me off of 40k or anything, I just mean those games were simply not fun whatsoever. Casual 40k is the best 40k in my opinion!

[@Trukson79]

@bluewater1976 sorry to hear that, I have the opposite experience. It's a huge hobby, hopefully we can all find our corner! 😊

[@dr.revenue3636]

@@Trukson79 That's the beauty of it! Something for everyone. Friend groups, power gamers, homebrew rules, and of course...modelling and painting!

[@cenomnestpasvalide2201]

To me competitive 40k events is where you go to realize that the game in itself is not that fun, and that the enjoyment you have out of it is mostly getting to play with your toys among other nerds.

[@ad_astra5]

I don’t play yet, but I thought that’s why they made killteam? To have an actual competitive game

[@Dram1984]

@@ad_astra5 kill team was originally supposed to be very narrative driven. But of course the competitive scene have ruined it too. Lol

[@ad_astra5]

@@Dram1984 huh… got it backwards 😅. A narrative game sounds pretty fun tbf

[@cenomnestpasvalide2201]

@@ad_astra5 Maybe, i haven't played kill team. Though i didn't mean to say 40 was bad at competitive play, in fact it's more compatible with competitive than ever before. What i meant was competitive events reveal how fun (or not) a game really is since the social an narrative aspect are not nearly as much of a thing.

[@captaincorundum9788]

Comp is super fun. You get to meet tons of people and, in my experience, most of them are super cool. Sure, you'll have the occasional chud, but I've made life long pals through comp 40k.

[@Morlair]

"its not my army, its the maths army" I 100% feel you. Thats why I quit trying to rank in magic the gathering, using meta decks is no fun.

[@meinfreundfranz]

Been top 4% of the world last winter. MTG (Arena) is nothing more than a time investment. After you reached the higher ranks it dosen‘t matter if you‘re playing a meta deck or not. It‘s just about winning more than 50% of games in a time window of X (usually a month). You don‘t need more than a 51% winrate. And a lot of time. But at the high ranks it‘s a grind anyway. But you don‘t need a meta deck to be successful at that state. You maybe just need a meta deck to reach that lvl as fast as possible.

[@StarWagi]

@@meinfreundfranz thats really only applicable to ranked ladder and not tournament play. I'm not sure about magic but in yu-gi-oh a 75% winrate doesn't even get you day 2 let alone top cut. However rogue decks top all the time. If you are good enough you can make a ton of decks work to a very high level. You just have a small margin of error.

[@MrRealeyesrealize]

Standard has always been such a clunky overpriced POS... Rotates a 300$ list to $20. Atleast with modern you used to be able to get close to what you paid for it lol

[@Lord_Brownie]

This is why I love Necromunda, the game isn’t the most balanced (looking at you ridgehauler) but it doesn’t need to be. It’s a game designed to facilitate storytelling and immersion. When my forge born with a storm welder (who took down four guys and exploded in the effort) is taken captive, I’m not worrying about the meta, I’m worried about rescuing my damn forge born.

[@lordmaahesdoesstuff]

I'm 100% behind this sentiment, I see a lot of people playing really competitive games down the club. I even took part in a recent league, but for me having fun with the models I've spent time on is paramount. Yes I can have fun losing, but I want there to be a narrative to my game. Even if it's just in my head!

[@SeasonofWar]

Sounds like you need to play Age of Sigmar! Armies and lists are generally super flavorful, the new edition is extremely engaging, and the community at large really prioritizes sportsmanship!

[@Orkimedes-sc8ef]

let's go SoW :) you're the best

[@jonathonfrench4895]

Poaching!!! This is poaching and I whole heartedly support it! AOS rules!

[@Nipa96M]

I feel you. In my local club it is known or rather decided that I play so called "blondie 40K" aka I see an option to do something or splitfire and I do it, no questions asked. I kinda like it because I like to be a goofball and that way of playing makes the game most entertaining for me. Sadly the people in my club started to make a connection between me playing care free with me being either simple or bad at 40K which tbh stang a bit. So I packed my Thousand Sons, made a list where I have biggest amount of cabal points and way to do same spells twice and then I played really cagey. Opponent was my good friend who is known to be one of our best and most active 40K players and he played Blood Angels. With the terrain blocking tricks you explained in this video and spending all of his time not being able to shoot nor run straight at me. The game ended with him making total of 3 charges in the whole game and shooting only one models guns. I bet he didn't have too much fun in that game, but he and the others did find it very impressive for me to dominate that hard. I was in total control from start to finish. To be fair I did kinda like that feeling and being the master mind, so I don't totally cross competetive play off, but to be honest that's not me. It's not that fun to crack jokes when the other player doesn't get to play and once they might find it cool to have a real challenge, but not every week. I rather play with one stompa and beg my opponent to not shoot at him for he is just a little guy.

[@suspecthalo]

“. . . One stompa . . . He is just a little guy,” wait a minute

[@tacotots_132]

I agree with your assessment 1000%. That’s how I feel aswell! Congratulations on beating Sawn but sorry to hear about your last place. I know you had worked hard. Keep up the hard work in areas that bring you the most enjoyment!

[@RPGCOMPANY]

If I remember correctly, around 9th edition GW partnered with “pro” 40K teams and some KZbin tournament players. At first for marketing, but shortly after and still to this day they exclusively play test new rules and provide the primary feedback. I much prefer the fluffy, fun, and old style of list building and gameplay. But with the right group you can still make it work!

[@digressoire]

I’m (very slowly) assembling a OOP Night Goblins army and I’m pretty sure I’ll never ever win a game… but I still can’t wait to play one :)

[@wesleyridge9696]

My opinion on competitive play is that 40K is like most table top games in that a lot of the fun comes from the people you play against

[@BerenMace]

Whatever Shawn is telling you about the Tank commander, but it hits on a 4+ just like the normal Russ and cant even receive orders from anything besides Lord Solar. So if he runs the Lord he can push it to 3+ but thats it

[@jameszeropr]

I still playing tournaments for two reasons: 1) the practice leading up are the most fun games I ever play... 2) helps set an event to have hobby goals and time to play.

[@kylemckiernan1445]

Lol tournaments are the biggest motivator to work through my pile of shame

[@jameszeropr]

@@kylemckiernan1445 exactly! 💯

[@GhostMaker00]

As someone who won world wide war and 'ardboyz new competive 40k is cancer. I've never met so many sweat lords. I've played since 2000 for reference.

[@Dram1984]

@@GhostMaker00 around 2003 or so my FLGS literally kicked people out of the store for being “breadry” as they called it. Purposely exploiting rules and playing to win at all costs was considered really bad form and they recognized that it just made the game less fun for everyone.

[@GhostMaker00]

@@Dram1984 Ya makes sense, I wonder if they welcome the current beards. lol

[@gk7003]

Amen to that!

[@henrycordes7148]

Jay, This was an excellent video, as always, you do a great job of breaking down your thought process. I’m 100% on board, competitive 40K is its own monster/beast other than playing casual pickup games with competitive elements which is usually how i like to roll. I avoided competitive play for a LONG LONG time, but started getting back into it with my FLGSs in the PHNX metro do seasonal leagues, that are semi competitive through out your required games, you can adjust your list, make changes as long you’re playing the army you signed up with, once it gets into the championship rounds, I’ve always bowed out, i like to qualify and then step away lol. There’s an average point system in play so it’s not so much about winning or loosing its more about your average. I think you would be an excellent league player or even organizer! Good luck on your continued journey with 40K! Keep up the great work.

[@dawidkowalewicz5845]

You know one day you will win 6 times in a row and you will realize it does not give you the satisfaction you'd expected. And we love you either way Jay!

[@Attan20]

The beautiful thing about 40K is that there’s space for each kind of player. For me, competitive play is where I have fun - I love min maxing and trying to build an optimized list, it’s like trying to solve a puzzle, and I like analyzing on how games went and how to improve. But there’s no right or wrong way to play 40K as long as both people playing are enjoying themselves.

[@jag1519]

I played in person for the first time last week, buddy I met at the game store. We had such a blast. It was a good back and forth with what we had, we didn't even count points beforehand. We just put roughly the same amount and types of models down and went at it. At the end I had two units, he had one. His had a plasma pistol and overcharged it- Snake eyes. Exploded and killed him. He immediately laughed so hard. I've played only through TTS before and it was much the same. If you're not imagining the fight playing out and having a blast win or lose then you're really missing out in my opinion.

[@Cuthbo]

I've played for years and been to tournaments. I don't think I've ever actually enjoyed the games themselves (and I've lost 99% of games). But I enjoyed the atmosphere and the post-game banter, and the idea of it.

[@Jonny.Y]

Don't give up!!!

[@Dram1984]

It will never not be funny that a game singularly unsuited to competitive play has become almost entirely dominated by it.

[@lefaux7235]

I agree 100%

[@NANA-bg1pq]

how can a game with a winner and loser be "singularly unsuited"? LMFAO Sounds like copium and loser talk.

[@Loserstakethebait]

@@NANA-bg1pq Because any game that is heavily based on rng is inherently bad for fair and serious competitions.

[@jorgeortizdiaz3794]

Also a game with a plethora of rules that change over time should never be considered competitive. Yet here we are

[@Willowo98]

@@NANA-bg1pq”a game with a winner and a loser” yeah let’s get right on competitive tic-tac-toe

[@MrMarlow1980]

My local RTT scene is a complete shark tank. About 20-24 players, but all of them have played 100+ competitive games. They have been at multiple GTs, Majors and all sorts. I have been to two RTTs and gone 1-2 at both. No shame in losing! I have learnt an absolute ton, I think playing in the competitive scene requires a mindset of it's a journey. Every loss is a lesson learnt, coming away with more experience. I can't say about your scene, but my local guys are all really sound and friendly. You can have a laugh and it's a great atmosphere. My advice, keep at it sir! Bring home glory for the Black Templars! Oh, and I play Guard. Steel legion 😊

[@gonk0190]

I think you touch on one of the best parts about UNDERSTANDING competitive 40k - it helps you play casual 40k in a more fun way. If you understand the power of your army and how best to use it, you also understand how to match that power with newer or more narrative gamers to make a balanced match. That makes all of your 40k more fun!

[@phogelbice]

This is it, you dont need a super meta try hard list to do well, only to win. And now your casual games will be more interesting and you learned the strenghts and weaknesses of your army so you can start doing more fun/casual but still effective lists. Keep playing your casual games with your friends with your newfound knowledge, maybe after a while you can give it another go. 👍

[@converseroo101]

All the tournament games I’ve been to in the U.K. thankfully people have been pretty good at letting you know about strategems and playing with intent. Things like backing away because someone didn’t consolidate - that feels a bit “gotcha” to me. I would take it on the chin, but it’s not something I would do to something. I would say either “don’t you want to consolidate in?” Or before I go to make my play point out that they haven’t consolidated so I will move back, do they want to nudge in. With core rules it’s a bit more forgiving because it’s the same with every army but with that tank commander example, that’s definitely something to call out I feel

[@zodiac3981]

The problem I have with competitive play for anything, whether it's a wargame, tcg, or whatever else, is that it doesn't really encourage creatively. You have to play the best stuff and maybe one thing that isn't optimal.

[@StarWagi]

Creativity is how you find what is optimal. Trying new things and seeing what works. The only difference is where that creativity is directed. Not to mention how important creative solutions to problems is.

[@drinkupnerds]

​@@StarWagifor real. People act like these meta defining decks/lists/builds weren't originally created by people but were handed down from RNGesus to be faithfully copied and never innovated on.

[@jacket2848]

No you don't have to play the best stuff, that's just something bad players think. Look at Liam's CSM list.

[@Gedupaints]

Jay: please keep playing tournaments. Your debriefs are encouraging me to start, and I really want to give it a go, even though I know I will get hammered by everyone!

[@Aethon988]

Go competitive in Conquest. I saw the photos from their World Series and the top players go to eat and swim on a Greek Island while playing games. The whole thing look unreal compared to what most wargamers are used to.

[@rjscorpion8892]

You should play larger tournaments where the 2nd day they group people based on wins and losses. My 1st tourney was August and I got stomped 1st 2 rounds, but those last 3 were super fun

[@odharrison23]

Thanks gents!! Fantastic as always!!!

[@casacichlids82]

I love your perspective on competitive play. I myself am slowly driving into it and can’t wait to come up with my only views. Thanks

[@francismahon2]

Practice with that list constantly and get reps. I was captain of WTC Team Ireland 3 years ago. Our sisters player had 500+ games with the same list. He won every game.

[@chrisprime7767]

Exactly, I've been playing the same Detachment the entire year and you'll learn your list inside out. A bummer that people keep giving up after a few Ls

[@francismahon2]

@@chrisprime7767 Its the only way to win with the ever changing meta. Meta chasing will get you nowhere and burnt out quickly. Get to the point where regardless of the opponents army, you know you gameplan and score your objectives.

[@lemcrossview5358]

Congrats on finally clearing out the parking lot! It was worth the wait

[@mandalorian1]

I would just like to say i have been playing ultramrines for over a year now and i have been watching you since then.

[@Akina_TTV]

yeh its ok to not be a tournament player. the issue a lot of people have is they think of it as a ladder where you progress through casual play and achieve tournament player status. they exist side by side, its ok to be someone who enjoys tournaments and its ok to be someone who enjoys casual play. pick the path that suits you

[@primarchcharlemagne]

Make the Drukhari your comp army. It’ll be a night and day difference in your win/loss ratio. Don’t give up Jay

[@swakage13x]

You mean like that one guy my brother was telling me about a few weeks back that is literally like 49 to 50% of their win-loss ratio

[@Midsiest]

“It’s not gonna be MY army, it’s going to be the math’s army” is a perfect way of describing it and I couldn’t agree more. I’ve loved competitive 40k and put a ton into it but I’ve been feeling burnt out recently because of the inability to have anything feel like MY army and not be met with “why would you ever take that??”

[@StealthVenturi]

Please can we have a studio tour Jay?

[@djile1601]

Jay, you are my hero. You never stop trying and your minis are real pieces of art. I used to have a friend who was were competitive and used to win almost every game. He was also very demanding person and strict with WYSIWYG. That was my first foray into wargaming. Couple of years ago I tried a new TCG which had a very competitive community. I even went to a couple of tournaments and felt absolutely terrible afterwards. One time I realised that I can't do this anymore and quit the game altogether. After some time I found Blood bowl. The community has been quite relaxed what comes to gaming and people really don't care about WYSIWYG. I have even participated in a couple of tournaments and had a lot of fun. I have understood that my way of gaming is not wrong but some games are not for me.

[@muratferguson4534]

You should look into the rules of your tournament. I already played about 15 tournaments in 10th edition. We in germany just play WTC rules which never deny a charge because of this 1" rule behind ruins.

[@djm6189]

Hearing Jay feel bad about list building and if you dont min max the shit out of any list you run, you might as well accept defeat before you hit the table is so cathartic. I play space marines, and I can't tell you how many times I've tried to move forward to be aggressive and immediately got tabled by the bottom of turn 2. "Oh, it should be impossible to be tabled that early, just play hyper competitively and don't ever move or expose anything. But still shoot while behind ruins and out of line of sight and spike 6's and you'll win." I'll never be mad at people who are good and know how to play, it just feels like even "friendly" games can be hyper sweaty. The best I ever did in a game was keeping everything behind ruins and not shooting and bearly moving for 3 turns, I still lost but at least I had minimal fun while playing! Ugh, I gotta get good.

[@brycedery9596]

Play people who do it for the fun, not the points.

[@gamergotguns1376]

Its not that you cant go out, Im sure you know about this but its about proper staging and screening for your army. in lore, space marines are the elite of the elite, but wierdly in game they are what GW uses as their midpoint for balance. They aren't the Custodes who walk up the board shrugging off fire and every army can and will beat you, when in lore... a guard regiment would be dismantled by like 20 marines. Knowing this is about knowing your army strengths and weaknesses. If your a blood angel, Dark angel, or Black Templar player, moving cautiously until you have one big "Go Turn" and rush all together is a strong strategy. Shooting armies need to apply threat not just kills. You need to think about what angles your opponents will get and also know what options you have in case they do. 40K in 10th edition is very shooty, guns are good and hit hard, I recommend playing with dense competitive game boards and player set terrain with positioning rules.

[@captaincorundum9788]

I play stupid lists all the time and do fairly well. The game is won in movement 90% of the time.

[@djm6189]

@captaincorundum9788 I've heard that the game is won in the deployment phase, and "it's not till turn 2 that you know how the game is gunna go." Even with base movement and some advance rolls I always seem to be completely exposed to something.

[@sisterkatherine3409]

Why is a Land Raider holding the home field and not supporting your push?

[@Krachbumm-Ente]

Because he's a casual. He, and many people who follow this channel apparently, simply lack the competitive mind set

[@heromedley]

TIME FOR COMPETITIVE AOS SPEARHEAD BABY LETS GOOO

[@DanMirkz]

Loving your videos mate. Recently got back into 40k (thanks space marines 2!). My previous experience with it was a necron battleforce 10+ years ago that I never finished building or painting (still have it). I went and bought the intro kit for some space marines and tyranids and have been eagerly building and painting over the past couple weeks. I also picked up a primaris chaplain because it looked cool and even went deeper and got the ultimate starter set. Really enjoy your enthusiasm for the hobby. You make it seem like so much fun and motivates me to do a little bit more on my minis. (It takes me 10 mins to do a base layer in 1 colour! haha). I'm enjoying it though. Thanks for the videos and enthusiasm! Hope you keep doing what you love

[@MrProthall]

A game that is no fun to you is a bad game, simple as that. If Warhammer becomes unfun in competitive, it's a bad game to you. So don't bother, just enjoy yourself. It's a game, not a job.

[@danjones3012]

If an army didn't cost on average $1200-$2000 to buy, build, and paint depending on how much you spend on the hobby; it's not a casual investment for most, especially nowadays.

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

Let’s face it, it was never very good as a game. If it were in GW’s interest to allow it to evolve naturally using player feedback it would be a cracking game today. But of course, $$$ comes first.

[@ryanunderwood9090]

I totally remember when the Landraider Crusader first came out...and I feel way older now.

[@Beedji]

"Oh no !... Guess you'll need to buy more stuff :(" - Games Workshop

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

Exactly! I bet they have psychologists on their staff. They certainly don’t have good rules writers.

[@jasonbritt2497]

Try a 10 man terminator assault squad led by a Chaplin in terminator armor. Put lightning claws on all your terminators. Put your teleport beacon on a point you don’t plan on putting your terminators on. It’ll force your opponent to dedicate forces to that side of the table expecting you to teleport. This will give you +1 to wounds and rerolls on 40 attacks. If you can advance on mid early your opponent will need to make a choice. Block off the teleport thinking the beacon is of importance and dedicate more troops or stick to defending mid. Either way if you take a squad of hellblasters or heavy intercessors and deploy them close to the beacon you have a pretty good option to chew through either point.

[@M1K3YG5]

My friend introduced me to Alternating Phase Activations for 40k. It completely chnaged everything for me. The game is so much more fun and allows for more counterplay. Basically, players alternate activiating their units per phases. So - Movemrnt Phase- player 1 moves all their untis, then player 2 moves all their units. Shooting Phase - player 1 shoots with all their units, then player 2 shoots with all their units. Damage is calcualted, but resolved for both players at the same time at the end of the shooting phase. Same for charge and fight phase. Honestly, you have to try playig 40k with alternative phase activations. The game really becomes so much more fun, and reactive. It's what actually made be stick with 40k in the end.

[@sirchubsalot5862]

Best way to play imo, is to take the things you like to play with and play the best you can with the models you took

[@jtwilliams37]

Man, I resonate with this video so hard. That's why I switched to playing Path to Glory narrative games in AoS instead of WH40k. For one, I think at least in my area, AoS players are more chill and less sweaty than 40k players. And two, the narrative play missions are inherently a little imbalanced so sometimes it might just be a rough game, but there's quests you can still complete so even if you get smashed you can likely gain experience, reputation, or complete a secondary objective that your army had. Much more about fun and building a story together with your friends than trying to wiener out a victory.

[@eastoforion]

really thankful for my local “competitive” scene, extremely fun games even during tournaments!

[@TheHikingReader]

I found myself falling into the same train of thought almost 15 years ago. When I first got into 40k, our local shop was running regular tournaments so it was only natural for me to take part. After two, I decided I had enough tournament play. I initially looked at it simply as the ability to get more games in, but I found myself not having much fun with competitive play. Not to say there were a couple of others that played in the tournaments just for fun like I was but the majority just beat me to a pulp as quickly as possible to move onto the next game. Coincidentally, I too was playing Black Templar at that time. It's still an army I have, but haven't played them at all in years now.

[@chrisj9628]

I'd encourage you to stick it out and keep trying! Most people go 0-3 in their first RTT or two as you get over the initial competitive learning curve, but if you focus on learning from each game and having fun with the people you meet I think you'll find the gameplay side will start falling into place pretty quickly. It can definitely feel stressful at first when you're putting pressure on yourself and aren't sure what to expect. I have met so many great people and had so many good games at competitive events once I got over that bump myself! Also, the half inch thing is wrong, I can charge you and end 1" away which is engagement range. The trick you're describing only works at certain distances (1.1") against bases of a certain size and ONLY if they can't just... go around? I play TONS of comp 40k and it rarely affects my games.

[@Joushi40k]

Always sad to hear when someone leaves the competitive side of the hobby, but glad to hear you're not gonna be doing things you don't enjoy Competitive 40k is in many ways competitive puzzle solving, where we take turns setting up puzzles for the other person to solve. I have a lot of fun with this But I also have a lot of fun seeing what happens in narrative games where winning is secondary and telling cool stories is where it's all about Good luck in your games!

[@shigjetar]

Agreed. My playgroup is sweaty has heck and I really want to just play some fluffy games. Sadly with my schedule and young kids, heading to the LGS for a 3-4 hours on a weekend day pickup game is just not possible. I really hope to connect with more likeminded people in the future when my schedule frees up a bit but until then I’ll just keep painting and getting smashed into the dust by the newest flavor of the month I guess.

[@zacharymoore9028]

The cool thing is the game offers different versions of play from home stuff all the way to competitive tours. Or you can just build and paint models to relax.

[@TheLostCrusader-q8c]

I've been playing black Templers to some pretty good success. Best result it 4-1 in a 70 player GT. The list is. Helbret+lieutenant with 5 sword bros. Emperors champion with 5 sword bros. Captain with the honour of vehement enhancement with 5 sword bros. Apothecary biologas, with fire disaplin with 6 eradicators. All of these units hit like absolute trucks. 5 intercessors. (They sticky home and do some screening) 2x5 jump pack assault intercessors. 2x5 scout squads. 1 land raider redeemer 1 vindicator. 1 impulsor.

[@aaronabel4756]

Read Tony Bath's Ancient Wargaming for inspiration on how to play wargames. It's a totally different approach than moving soldiers into a plastic circle for points.

[@Scotty86doo]

Sounds like alot of the problem is the lack of alternating activations in 40k, the fact you gotta hide your whole army for a turn to do anything proves it. I wanna try 10th edition but id probably enjoy Grimdark Future more.

[@tristanellis-mascoll1171]

Welcome back to the hobby side of 40k. Sounds like your dive into sports 40k was very short

[@chancewallace1210]

I feel you I also do not like the "need to be optimal to" in competitive play but I still go to tournaments so I can play 3 games in a day; I do not leave the 3 six model scarabs (72 wounds) backed by two spiders at home.

[@hobbybro3902]

I went 1-2 in m first RTT, ran out of time on both losses on turn 3. 83-82 loss vs Tau, 65-62 loss vs Voltan, won 91-28 vs Black Templars. Ran Necrons, Canoptek court.

[@elijahdprophet]

This is why my only 40k event at Adepticon next year will be the Friendly. 1 day, 3 games, nothing matters and the rules are fluid.

[@TheUndeadslayer221]

You could just bring a meme list like that one guy I know did (he got like 3rd place; He was running 200+ guardsman).

[@kamakazi339]

When Jay finally realized he's more of a hobbiest than a competitor

[@skwoogle]

Competitive for anything can be really fun, but you have to be of the mindset that you really need to win. I do that with counterstrike, but 40k for me is about imagining the battle. Using a hunter killer missile on a single crisis battlesuit? Not practical. But I'm just imagining him standing next to his buds chilling until he just turns into a fine mist.

[@popofluke2695]

You should try death guard! You already have some and so many lists are viable. At LGT there were a bunch of DG in the top half of results and almost every one of them had a different list.

[@chrisprime7767]

From my experience, Marines die like flies, they're not tough enough. That's why you pick the 5 up fnp vow. I think you've been running the sustain hits or lethal hits?

[@Happyjethappy]

Power creep is too much when t4 3+ 2 wounds is soft

[@TacticalMetalhead]

Firstborn Crusaders are hella underated, and they're AWESOME

[@engageonallfronts]

If you want to do competitive 40K, just pick a faction and build up your collection. That way you can do the competitive army list pivoting from a selection of units. You get to do the collection and hobby part of 40K and it can lead itself to you having them options to run better lists within the faction

[@DashOr]

Sounds like the perfect explanation for TCGs too. In just fell in love with Star wars unlimited and it's a lot of fun. But for tournaments you need to bring the best meta stuff and even more buy the expensive good cards to even be able to compete. I would bring my hard control list to the weekly plays and everyone was like yeah that's strong but there's no fun just completely disrupting and shutting down your opponents game. I think a friendly tournament were its okay to lose and banter is much preferred over a competitive heads down no speak game.

[@warpstoneenjoyer8293]

The worst part of tournaments has got to be that there is physically not enough time to chat with your opponent, if you stop to chit chat you will hit the clock without even realising it. There's no room for anything except the game

[@Dram1984]

It’s insane that games take so long. I swear every action not has like 20 re-rolls on it.

[@captaincorundum9788]

I haven't had that experience.

[@jacket2848]

Literally never ran out of time and I play templar horde.

[@scoutjax3202]

My local store has tournaments. We don't get any prizes for winning it is all door prize. So, although competitive, you can still have fun.

[@sadlyanuxtakustan8950]

This is why you need to run at least 3x5 man jump intercessors and a 10 man unit of thunder hammer and storm shield terminators with an ancient in terminator armour with the 5+ fnp enhancement and then run the fnp vow for your army.

[@TheDarkyello]

See every tournament iv played at I usually like to bs with my opponent and have a easy going time. Iv been playing tournaments for almost twenty years and I can tell you there’s three levels of play and they’re casual, competitive and tournament. A tournament player with a bad list will be beat a bad player with a good list a majority of the time because a good portion of tournament play is not forgetting small rules that can cost you the game. It’s why I’ll remind my opponent about rules they’re forgetting like to pile in or fight on death.

[@markggamedesign3071]

It took me 3 years to figure out how to win semi consistently in any tournament that had legitimate players participating. 2 RTT's is not a good gauge but your frustrations and analysis of how it works is accurate. Once you get past the strange competitive mode the fun side comes out again. I've come in last so many times but also won a couple and gone 2-1 a bunch of times and 3-3 on a bigger GT. It's a big commitment.

[@jamesgarrett1300]

"It's a big commitment." And the time for that commitment comes at a great cost. Other Hobbies...

[@lord17c]

It's good to find what you love about the game. I am glad you found what you loved. Perhaps 11th edition will be more balanced when it drops.

[@vangrail27]

My group has moved to a house ruled heres system now we are converting stuff back to the old style and its been great. working on all the races. just new 40k there are so many guarantees it sucks between strats and char bonuses u know your unit will do X or Y.

[@xSATSx]

I've never tried competitive 40k or WFB, but I've played Guild Ball, Moonstone and Blood Bowl competitively and they are great fun. Difference is, the first two don't have points, you simply pick ~6 characters from the ~20 in your faction and stick them on the table, no extras, no other options, fewer moving parts to plan for. Blood Bowl rosters are generally very similar, with skill placement and playstyle your distinguishing features, not raw power or even meta. However, the dice are a significant balancing factor - when your turn can end on the very first dice roll, you have to have a more flexible and relaxed atttitude.

[@TwinkieS0n]

Holy cow! Jay you did it! A “how” and I didn’t cringe! Just keep it up buddy! Also my gf says to trim your fingernails

[@MyAlessandro1995]

I think it depends on the list and the chapter, personally I really enjoy my Uriel plus 6 lascannon centurions or my list in general, basically just Tanky and resistant units on the field,baiting every single attack, then bring in the bad boys

[@Yoshi278]

14:40 brother its a 40k tournament w/ competitive lists, trust me they are not that cool lmao.

[@chrisj9628]

Amusingly, the most normal well-adjusted 40k players I know are also all tournament players. The weird sweaty nerds are the fluffy-bunnies who are always at the LGS bitching about GW to anyone who will listen. You never know!

[@beanman853]

the thing with space marines is that you need to use cover very effectively realistically you shouldn't be having go units being killed

[@swakage13x]

Kind of why i just like playing games for fun with my brother his fiance and their friends, my grey knights are not built to be competitive yet

[@johannes8270]

It starts feeling way less black and white when you gain more experience. I see sooo many different lists at tournaments. And as long as they are not complete trash, player skill is still the most important factor.

[@lordwellingstone4133]

It's ok to be bad (i am too). Embrace being good enough, and focus on having fun. Nobody cares who wins at toy soldiers, at least not for very long. But everyone remembers the amazing game they had against a then stranger.

[@thetiredboy6607]

Jay, you’re the kind of player I’d rather play against. I’m not interested in hyper sweaty min/max lists. I just want to put some cool shit I like on the board, throw some dice, have some laughs. Beer and pretzels type Warhammer.

[@Contaminator631]

I hope you give Infinity some more time! Sorry your tournament didn't go as you hoped

[@Coraxery]

The crusade rules always sounded appealing even though I've never played them, a narrative campaign just sounds interesting. Meta gaming tournaments on the other hand sound like 40K hell.

[@BB-pn2qv]

Give yourself time, O pressure if you wanna do comp more later! We all lose, that is how we LEARN best

[@beardyhat9547]

I've had this similar struggle after doing several tournaments for Age of Sigmar and Bolt Action. While I really like a majority of the people at these and will probably still go to Bolt Action tournaments just for the people, competitive play just isn't fun for me either. I play games (be they video or wargames) to relax and have fun, maybe BS with some buddies and competitive wargames just are not that. I don't want to have to be hyper focused for hours upon hours, often (in the case of Warhammer tournaments) for two days on end, it's exhausting and by the third game of the first day, I'm all done and just don't want to be there anymore. I agree with everything you've listed, from the competition to the list building, to the "meta", it's all just not fun for me. I don't regret the tournaments I've done, but I'm pretty sure I am, in fact, done, with them. It's not my scene.

[@jimmy_the_sound]

What about a Canos Rex with the Las Impulsar or Castalan with Volcano Lance to smoke those Rus's? 😅😅😅

[@codyott1982]

I know blood angels had access to the crusader as early as 4th edition. So if it was templars only, it had to be third edition or before. I also didn't play in 6th, 7th or 8th. So I can't say if there was a retcon in those editions.

[@CallMeSovereign]

Tank commanders hit on 4s natively and can only be ordered by Leontus fwiw