Glenn & John Throw Down over Ta-Nehisi Coates | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter | The Glenn Show

[@GlennLouryShow]

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[@jina_huh]

Hi Glenn & John: Are you vetting comments? I left a long comment but it appears that it didn't post.

[@Brilly-gh8gp]

They've had more babies born then lives lost. You need to get ahold of your emotions and start thinking critically about the motivations and goals of Pals. Listen to them in Arabic. This isn't about land.

[@gospelpeace]

​@@jina_huhThat only means you must have left something that was very memorable & thought worthy & let's face it our "WE THE PEOPLE'S RIGHTS FREEDOM OF SPEECH" is going through a great down sizing & very gradually sliding down hill every time I get on this thread those unlawful bastards or finding all kinds of misinterpretation of Law to unofficially stop our freedom of expression, it's a sad 😢 time to actually see 👀 this happen right along with all this gestapo type of Nazi mayhem thar is actually being allowed in this nation, who would have thought that it would gradually come to this. Amen & Amen & Amen 🙏!!!

[@gospelpeace]

HEY Glenn this is for you hope you get it & think about it 👌!!! THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO 👉 👉 👉 👉JOHN 👉👉 THE DIETY OF CHRIST JOHN:1v 1 IN the beginning (does not infer that Christ as God had a beginning, but rather refers to the time of Creation [Gen.1:1]) was the Word (the Holy🕊Spirit through John describes Jesus as "the Eter- nal Logos"), and the Word was with God (Meaning that He did not cease to be God during the Incarnation; He "was" and "is" God from eternity past to eternity future). V2 The same was in the beginning with God (this very Person was in eternity with God; there's only one God, but manifested in three Person, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy🕊Spirit). V3 All things were made by Him (all things came into being through Him; it refers to every item of Creation one by one, rather than all things regarded in totality); and without Him was not any thing made that was made (nothing, not even one single thing, was made independently of His cooperation and volition). V4 In Him was Life (presents Jesus, the Eternal Logos, as the first cause); and the Life was the Light of men, (He Alone is the Life Source of Light 🌄 ; if one doesn't know Christ, one is in dark🖤ness). V5 And the Light shines in dark- ness (speaks of the Incarnation of Christ, and His coming into this world; His "Light🌄", because it is derived from His Life, drives out "dark🖤ness"); and the darkness comprehend it not (should have been translated, "apprehended it not"; it means that Satan, even though he tried with all his might, could not stop "the Light🌄"; today it shines all over the 🌏 world, and one day soon, there will be nothing left but that "Light🌅"). Amen & Amen & Amen 🙏!!! HEY GLENN JUST ASKING IS ALL👌!!! Glenn have you ever stopped to wonder what this life is all about🤷? Why you're here and where you're going when your lease on time runs 🏃‍♂️ out? Maybe Glenn you've been far too busy, trying hard to reach your goal, would you let me ask you kindly "Glenn" have you ever thought bout your soul😳? O I know you may have reached the highest portals, and your dreams may well have all come true, wealth and fame "Glenn" may have been your portion, and success may have shined on you, all your friends "Glenn" probably have sang your praises & not a care may have rolled your way but 😮 "Glenn" what about your great tomorrow my brother, have you thought about your soul🤷? Please don't forget your days are actually numbered, though you may be riding high 🥳; But like all of us poor mortals, someday you'll just up and die⚰️; Your success and fame and glory won't be worth the bell 🔕 they toll, let me ask you just one question "Glenn" have you my brother thought about your soul🤔? If you've never thought it over, spend a little time today, cause "Glenn" in all truth there is nothin more important that will ever come your way, than the joy of sins forgiven, and to know you've been made whole, in the name of Christ the Savior "Glenn" have you thought about your soul🫡? Amen & Amen & Amen 🙏!!!

[@balle733]

Glenn you hate Jews 😂

[@puccaso]

i hope you two never stop having love for each other. everyone needed to hear this.

[@Dana-pq7ke]

Cheney! We cannot do this!

[@jeremyblock7032]

I love the premise that the Palestinians don't have a voice and this is why Coates wrote the book. It's literally the most popular conflict in history by many magnitudes; taking up a whopping 1/3 of all UN resolutions. Why doesn't Coates write a book on the Uyghurs, Tibetans, Yazidis, Kurds or dozens of other stateless people? Because it would sell 5 copies. Hardly brave and innovative,

[@Uwamaikwu]

How many of those conflict Nations have had their president give a speech to our congress? How many of those conflict nations use out fighter jets for their bombs?

[@gabrielazki]

Why dont all the people who spend all day everyday supporting Israel write books or defend the Uyghurs, Tibetans etc? You're the hypocrite.

[@jeremyblock7032]

@@Uwamaikwu you’re typing on a device made by slaves in China and Africa. Get off your high horse

[@onepartyroule]

The situation of the other groups you mention certainly needs attention, but it isn’t quite the moral emergency as the situation in Gaza. We don’t need to wait for future generation to look back in shame on this one, we are already steeped in the shame in real time, and it’s horrifying.

[@jeremyblock7032]

@@onepartyroule The total # of people killed from 1948 to the present in the Israel/Palestine conflict is about 5% of the Congo in the last decadde and 1/4 of Syria in the last 5 years.,

[@SourceMaterialUSA]

One of the best shows so far. Your show provides the rare example of two prominent public intellectuals, unafraid of pushing each other on ideas and disagreements.

[@touchpotential3762]

I found John’s analysis to be lazy and very biased, as he seems to believe that it’s about being critical of white people. He implies that Coates would write differently if the roles were reversed with Muslims. Basically, John is expressing his dissatisfaction that Coates does not write in the same way he does.

[@fabianmusefano6402]

Glenn, why don't you try to invite Ta-Nehisi and John on your show and have them debate on the content of the book. I think it's a brilliant suggestion.

[@danilopompey754]

John and Coates have talked. Look it up; it is available. But , unfortunately, John is trying very hard to say something demeaning about Coates for, as he admits, Coates' having quipped very negatively about the aggregate of John's literary work, for which Coates then apologized when John confronted him, when they talked, for having done so by then admitting that it was a very cruel unwarranted statement. And since John could not get along with his own wife and remain a full-time father for his two girls, his divorce and his reaction to Coates' book are consistent, but nonetheless shameful. He should be able to rise above but apparently cannot. QED

[@erickohner2205]

I agree, great idea.

[@WizardMermen]

@@danilopompey754 Bringing up his divorce is a scummy low-blow.

[@danilopompey754]

@@WizardMermen, really, so John can assert that Coates does not know what he is talking about, but I cannot support my conjecture that John, who by his own admission, obsessively holds grudges and is therefore simply irrational since he could not get along with his own wife. If she is divorcing or has divorced him, that speaks volumes, and if rather he is divorcing her, that is even worse. Marriage is not that hard; I've been with mine my woman for 55 years, and my father even had to sign for me to get married because in Illinois, you have to be 21 as a male to marry and I was just 20 - unless a parent signs. QED

[@stephenmcinerney9457]

@@edawga-i3t Fine, then Glenn should invite Ta-Nehisi on his show and debate the content of TC's book, without John, for one episode; maybe with some other guest. Would be much more illuminating than John making catty asides about TC for things John imagined TC meant, but didn't write.

[@Beatit19]

Again, as in the previous video about this, I agree with John wholeheartedly. Glenn’s newfound love for Coates is baffling, or perhaps less so when you realize his obvious bias against Israel. Thus it is reasonable he would find Coates’ emotional prose particularly persuasive (whereas Im sure his prose on “antiracism” and similar drivel would surely not resonate with Glenn as much). Also Glenn’s assertions on how the American press ignores the plight of Palestinians and whatnot? Where have you been for the last year since October 12 2023? The NYT and Washington Post in particular, as those are the ones he brings up, have done nothing else but report and highlight every calamity that has befallen Gaza, the real and the ones blown up by the “Gaza Health Ministry” (aka Hamas). As, unfortunately, it is a war.

[@lkae4]

I've seen so many intelligent Americans with an obvious and unsubstantiated bias against Israel. It's so weird. Israel crushed Hezbollah and are our best chance to stop the Iranian regime and bring peace to the Middle East. It's like people don't want world peace. Which raises the question: What kind of highly intelligent people don't want world peace?

[@on2a]

A war is against two armies. This is one army fighting terrorists and using that as a justification to kill thousands of civilians, steal land, and damage infrastructure. Never have so many innocents had to pay for the crimes of a few… 40k Hamas terrorists to 2 million civilians. It’s only a war for those supporting genocide and ethnic cleansing. Also lets not talk about the daily crimes in West Bank. Finally, the root cause: land theft, sanctioned by America. Disgraceful

[@tegusentertainment8021]

You're not familiar with the concept of manufacturing consent and how it's conducted, are you?

[@Genarii]

​@tegusentertainment8021 Are you asking if he's not a disciple of Chomsky, and by implication, everything he just said is negated? If not, I don't understand the purpose of your comment at all. I wish people would engage directly with an argument rather than quipping cleverly around the edges of it.

[@tegusentertainment8021]

@Genarii the problem with engaging on here is one can type paragraphs and still not cover every detail, atleast I don't have the attention span to do so. My point in this case is that this person asserts the MSM has adequately covered the crimes being committed in Gaza and beyond. The reality is, they water down their reporting by, as an example, acting like the humanitarian crisis stemming from denying entry of food, water and medicine by the IOF is akin to a natural disaster. They word Palestinians slaughtered as deaths as if dying from unknown causes while Israelis as brutally murdered as was the case of the invaders being ambushed in southern Lebanon when they sent in their ground troops. They just reported about the "poor" bulldozer operators who because they ran over hundreds of dead and ALIVE Palestinians are now suffering from PTSD, I guess even psychos have only so much capacity for cruelty. They never pose the question as to the legitimacy of Israel's actions because the default instinct for the west is that Israel has a right to exist and expand unrestricted while those it occupies and threatens have a right to quietly accept their faith.

[@rustynails68]

It is so wonderful to see people respectfully disagree. They should teach that in the University.

[@chrisgeary4624]

Other than the artistry of the prose, I'm struggling with how Glenn's defense of Coates' book couldn't also apply to Kendi. Both are just explicating their personal conclusions without having to deal with the complexity of the situations.

[@on2a]

Have you read the book? because artistry of prose is the least interesting thing about it. Not dealing with complexity of the situation is also inaccurate, it swims in it…

[@QuarantineCody]

@@on2aI doubt he read it at all! It’s very deep it makes me think about the future.

[@BeanMacdui]

It’s honestly, so interesting how people can have such wildly different takeaways from reading a book or listening to an interview. I side with John as well. I did check out the book at the library and I did try to read it with an open mind, trying to see it through Glenn’s eyes. I just didn’t see what he (Glenn) or other people are getting. Coates just seems weirdly shallow.

[@larreye8451]

Honestly didn't hear much if an in-depth defense of Coates. Glenn mostly replied to John's elaborate explanations, by dismissing them without much of an explanation. Not used to this shallowness by Glenn.

[@dhunsi1340]

@@on2a we must have read very different books . Or you missed the simple fact that Arab terror and refusal to make peace is never explored or even mentioned. Yes, lots of detail - all one sided , biased or inaccurate.

[@Dalupa]

Rare for me to break for John over Glenn. I understand that Glenn is impressed with Coates' ability to write. I'm of the opinion that clever oratory and 'brilliant writing' have been used as cover for various destructive poison pills. A black first in the air has a persuasive poetry to it that a million crime stats could never penetrate. That imbalance is concerning to me. So Coates gets no credit for being good with words. If he can't even mention Oct 7th, then it's worthless.

[@scottmitchell1974]

Glenn gets it right 90% of the time but John has him and Coates nailed on this. Coates is an angry rac ist who is simply projecting his white-brown oppressor/oppressed nonsense onto this issue.

[@afritimm]

They guy should write a novel, not a purported examination of one of the great geo-political issues of the world.

[@gandydancer9710]

If his brain is in "Park" I don't care how good his prose is. Life is too short to waste time on reading him, and I haven't and won't.

[@RY_2023_]

This started why before 10/7 and the problem he is addressing predates that so it's 10/7 is irrelevant the world didnt start that day

[@Vitobandito434]

@@RY_2023_the problem started way before 1948

[@liamrobinson2084]

The problem with this whole discussion is it ignores one important fact: Coates is an activist and so, fundamentally, cannot be presumed an honest interlocutor. He is divorced from the existence of truth. He only ever pushes his side.

[@MMARavid]

You can make the same argument against every activist by that logic, so you're saying activists serve no purpose to humanity and haven't in the world's history?

[@debashissen5813]

One of the VERY BEST podcasts that I have seen. By far.

[@NuanceNotes]

I enjoy listening to these two gentlemen.

[@bkilg2509]

I get a little upset when they disagree 😅 I think because i fear them really falling out. But besides that, I always (almost always) feel smarter after i watch them

[@ayaskovi]

It’s refreshing to hear real conversation and real respectful disagreement!

[@Ken-iu2zp]

I agree

[@lonecandle5786]

“There is always a why”. Because there is always an attempt to justify actions, doesn’t mean we can just assume actions are evil because some of the consequences are bad. If we can’t talk about the ‘why’, then how do we judge actions in the first place? Even if we are focused on the consequences, the ‘why’ helps us understand what the net consequences may be.

[@AkZeal76]

True, the why is the most important detail of any question, and any inquiring mind would never accept the what without the why. Its literally the difference between religious style moralism and intellectualism - not accepting that something is just a fact and exploring why it is the way it is.

[@jmagaram]

She killed her husband - evil. He was abusing her for years. Hmmm…

[@AkZeal76]

@@jmagaram what if 10 years before the husband wanted a divorce and she wouldn't let him leave? what if the abuse was mutual and she also sent a bunch of her friends to beat him up? This is why we don't analyze complex geopolitical issues using basic analogies to marital experiences - shit's complicated

[@jmagaram]

@@AkZeal76 I was agreeing with you. You have to understand the past and the why to make judgements about any current situation. My simple example shows that if you omit one fact about the why it changes your entire view of the situation.

[@AkZeal76]

@@jmagaram oh I thought you meant it as a direct analogy. cheers

[@dhunsi1340]

I just read Coleman Hughes review of this "fantasy " book and loved it. I suggest that Glenn and everyone read it. Beautifully done!

[@BeanMacdui]

Love Coleman Hughes! And yes, his review was excellent and grounded.

[@TeamDiezinelli]

Where is the article available?

[@dhunsi1340]

@@TeamDiezinelli on the free press website

[@BeanMacdui]

@@TeamDiezinelliI found it on The Free Press site. I have never heard of it, but it was the first thing that popped up when I typed in Coleman’s name and review on coats book. 😊

[@888thawk]

No thanks.

[@guylfe]

It seems to me Glenn is working backwards from the conclusion because he has come to agree with Coates' bottom line.

[@koolandskary]

Describes John as well. At least Glenn's position doesn't require a justification of apartheid by reference to complexity

[@MOME914]

John sounds like he is lying about reading the book and watching the interviews. Coates literally says the opposite of what John's accusing him of.

[@marlonesque]

@@koolandskary Exactly

[@gospelpeace]

Hey 👋 man give the dude a break he's now in his "Twilight🌃Light" years & he has much to ponder & consider bout eternity as each day goes by from here on out👌!!! Amen 🙏!!!

[@OffbeatsMusic]

💯

[@pilatesrebalance]

I'm finding myself in alignment with John today. I love both these Men and love the conversation ❤

[@sunnyla2835]

Me, too! Everything you said. Two honest, respectful and thought-provoking analyses between friends. ❤

[@noahmyavon]

Ìam alwaýs with John. Ģlenn is contrarian and still supports Trump and dumps on harris. Glenn is still in my heart but i gave up on him ages ago

[@helpyourcattodrive]

Same.

[@Cmc08-i9p]

What happened to Glenn? He’s gone from a teacher to a preacher. Bizarre to see him make emotional arguments

[@adamsharrocks8212]

Tbf I think he's always been this way. They both make a compelling argument here I think, but they both have flaws. John's right to be level headed and point out the lack of precision but also makes assumptions. I think Glenn is making an emotional argument because that's the level he feels that Coates is addressing the issue but the problem is he's making an emotional argument. I think Loury has always preached.

[@t14dann18]

Glad you aired this! Support for both of you!

[@ArmandoMPR]

Glenn is a lightweight when it comes to certain topics, and foreign policy is definitely one of those topics.

[@loudenlaffnite246]

After this, I'm imagining Glenn getting blindingly drunk on the aesthetic beauty of Triumph of the Will.

[@bassandtrebleclef]

TC is not a serious writer. He's an emotional writer, and he is very good at writing in that style. He's just not very persuasive because his arguments don't hold up to any reasonably questioning or examination.

[@scottmitchell1974]

100%!

[@ghazelite]

@@scottmitchell1974 what questioning? You didnt read the book at all. Just came to pile on.

[@Uwamaikwu]

Your statement here sounds like a projection as the only emotion I see here is your anger and lack of seriously persuasive argument against Coates. If you ever become serious please come back and pose your reasonable questioning and examination of his book.

[@boatbutch]

His arguments are very persuasive to the already persuaded. AKA fan service.

[@adamwaterhouse]

Regardless, the main issue here is whether or not Israel is practising apartheid, and the jury is in on that one - it is. Watch the film Roadmap to Apartheid which can be viewed for free on KZbin.

[@Bruhaha9]

Glenn: “ I think, in fact, if you read between the lines…” But yet when John gives his reading of what he thinks is in between the lines, Glenn won’t have it.

[@phildupuis1084]

John is right to pull out the priors of Coates for his myopic analyses of the situation

[@nyifnbr18]

Usually think in lockstep with Glenn, not this time.

[@ai_com]

Even at 11.47 when john invents a stick to beat coates with, while he talks about muslims, omiting the fact that Palestinians include Christians

[@Brilly-gh8gp]

@@ai_com The overwhelming majority are M's and all of the policies are decided by M's.

[@ai_com]

@@Brilly-gh8gp just points to the laziness of others rather than coates

[@gandydancer9710]

@@ai_com No, he's pointing directly at laziness in Coates.

[@jackiekjono]

Things people don’t say: - For the past 3 generations any Palestinian who has dared to say out loud, “gee, maybe we should try to coexist with the Israelis” has been killed. Maybe by the PLO, maybe by Fatah, maybe by Hezbollah, maybe by Hamas. It doesn’t mean that there might not be some Palestinians who still have that notion from time to time but, they have to keep their mouths shut about it or else. - All statistics about how many Palestinians who have been killed are coming from sources with a direct connection to Hamas and yet are reported as if they are from neutral sources. It is hard to know how true they are. Even so, Israelis seem to be trying to minimize civilian losses which is made very difficult by the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah do not really wear uniforms and tend to hide their munitions under hospitals and schools. They hide behind Palestinian civilians. The expectations put on the Israelis to avoid civilian casualties are far higher than has ever been expected of any other country trying to defend itself while Hamas and Hezbollah do not care about how many Palestinians are killed. For them, the more civilians killed, the better because of how it plays in the Western press. Hamas could end the war at any time - or at least make a serious move toward peace by turning over the remaining hostages. They haven’t done that. - A lot of non-Muslims have not read the Koran and don’t really know what it says. Part of the Koran is a rewriting of many of the crucial stories of the Torah with slightly different endings. This was dictated to Mohamed by the Angel Gabriel who said that the Jews lied and changed the story so the basic dispute is over whose version is correct. So Muslims do believe that they are the ones who should be inheriting that place and Jews are the splinter group and Jews believe that they are the ones who should be inheriting that place and Muslims are a splinter group. I am never going to be enough of a Biblical/Koranic scholar to even approach who might be right on that one. I do know that no one who is now living was there to witness any of those events to give a better account. I wish that Jews and Christians and Muslims could all have access to that place and that is far more likely to happen under Israelis than under the rule of the Iranian Mullahs.

[@BeanMacdui]

Such a great comment. And so true.

[@TeamDiezinelli]

Agreed!

[@Jonathanismyname]

You said that the IDF is doing what it can to minimize civilian deaths. I’m not sure if you know what that means. It doesn’t mean they are trying to kill the most civilians… it’s not Dresden obviously. But saying they are “doing their best” to minimize civilian death when kids have been shot by snipers and entire housing blocks have been leveled. Seems like you believe the state media talking points. You don’t have to be pro Hamas to see with your own eyes the terror the people of Gaza are going through and understand that it will manifest itself in a future form of hatred and resentment towards the Israeli state.

[@ronshatzmiller3683]

you get it.

[@AvaSession7Ex]

So The Lancet, which estimates over 200,000 dead Palestinians is affiliated with Hamas?

[@zacharybrown9741]

You guys are always the best

[@yahyachaudhry6729]

One of the best interviews I've seen, Glenn you are great.

[@boutoille_]

Came here for Glenn stayed for John.

[@slider292]

Amen, brother.

[@whtwht]

Is there anyone in the US more condescending and cantankerous than John.?

[@slider292]

@@whtwht Doesn't mean he's wrong.

[@Cyberchic2]

John is correct.

[@snneka4252]

John is an anxious child with a personal vendetta. Expected more objectivity.

[@marsspacex6065]

Meanwhile 40 million of us Kurds are silently being oppressed by the worst regimes in the world. I’ll bet you Coates doesn’t even know what a Kurd is.

[@traviscutler9912]

So his ignorance of Americans crimes against the Kurds means we should encourage the same for the Palestinians?

[@nina2301]

John is MASTERFUL in common sense critical thinking. What an incredible discussion.

[@christopherpike7163]

What an amazing take from Glenn on "humanity". The millions of civilian victims and tens of millions of people, especially women and children killed and still suffering in Syria, Afghanistan, Mali, Yemen, Sudan, China, and Venezuela will be grateful. Still waiting for Glenn to read up on these hellish palces and on the oppression not involving African-Americans or "the Jews".

[@hondafreedom9329]

Brilliant insight; "incuriosity." By the way, I have a principled justification for the settlements.

[@k3nn3thinatl]

John is 100% correct on Coates.

[@TheShacharZiv]

30:24 I've heard a couple of interviews with Coates (though I haven't read the book): What he said is that when he considers the Nat Turner revolt, his main thoughts are:"If my existence is dependant on killing babies, I'd rather die". He didn't consider that choosing death over injustice is not just your own death, but the death of your children, nieces and nephews. I am an Israeli who wants equal life for palestinians with all my heart. If my desire for justice conflicts with the lives of my nieces and nephews, that's where I have a problem. I want to believe it's possible to achieve both (justice for palestinians and life for my nieces and nephews), but if not, I choose the life of my nieces and nephews (while striving for more justice).

[@marlonesque]

I'm glad you can be honest about choosing injustice for the sake of your family. Apartheid is wrong. Not defending your family is wrong too. The morality of the two is not complex. Prayers sent for Israel and the OTs

[@TheShacharZiv]

​@@marlonesque Of course the situation of at least 5 million people not having real voting rights on the power controlling them is unjust. I just hope we find the way to resolve it without even worst bloodshed. Thank you for your prayers, we'll need them.

[@devin_3875]

i appreciate the way you put that, thanks for the comment.

[@charlieschuyler_1992ny]

My brother-in-law and my best friend from college are both Israeli, and over the past year I've had a lot of opportunity to discuss the conflict with them and other Israelis. Your comment is a good example of what I find most frustrating about these conversations: you make an argument for Israel's actions toward the Palestinians without the faintest glimmer of recognition that the same argument, mutatis mutandis, can be made from the Palestinian perspective--and moreover, that such arguments are orders of magnitude more convincing on the side of beleaguered refugees who've endured decades of statelessness with the boot of Israeli military occupation on their necks, their land ceaselessly stolen by Israelis who cynically proclaim with their lips that they wish for a two state settlement with the (alas!) rejectionist Palestinians while their hands are busy building Jews-only settlement expansions and bulldozing Palestinian houses in East Jerusalem and the West Bank--territories over which Israel has not one scintilla of legitimate sovereignty in the first place. Nat Turner's slave rebellion bears obvious comparison to October 7th, and bears no resemblance whatsoever to what Israel is currently doing in Gaza. Israelis cite October 7th as a justification for visiting apocalyptic violence on Gaza, and claim that anyone affiliated with civil administration or who happens to be an adult male in Gaza is a Hamas member, that all Hamas members must be killed to secure Israel, and that all such killing as well as the killing of tens of thousands of civilians plus the destruction of vital civilian infrastructure is morally justified. But if you point out to them that Israel--which crucially is not under illegal military occupation but rather imposes occupation on the Palestinians--has routinely carried out massacres in Gaza which killed as many as if not more civilians that died on October 7th--Operation Cast Lead, Protective Edge, etc.--and that most Israeli citizens are required to serve in the military which occupies Palestinian land and which carries out these massacres of innocent people in Gaza--and that while Israel is a free and prosperous society, the people of Gaza are locked in a ghetto by Isareli security forces who've restricted their access to food and choked their economy into ruin, while keeping the population under 24/7 drone surveillance--and that Hamas kidnapped Israeli civilians in order to trade them for thousands of Palestinian political prisoners already rotting in Israeli jails, many of whom have never been charged with a crime, many of whom are children--point these things out to them and ask why, by their own logic, they don't think Hamas had a right to carry out the attacks of October 7th, indeed, why they don't think Hamas actually had a right to make October 7th at least 40x worse... They will shout. And gesticulate violently. And erupt with outraged vocalizations, and demand to know what is wrong with you, that you would dare to pose such a quesiton...but they will have absolutely nothing of substance to say in rejoinder. They do not consider the question legitimate, they will scoldingly insist the factual record on these matters, about which they know very little or nothing, is a lie, and above all they will impugn the intelligence of anyone who cannot see that Hamas are terrorists, and terrorists have different motives than virtuous Israeli soldiers who commit the same acts as Hamas only on a vastly larger scale and from a qualitatively weaker moral position. Israeli soldiers will enforce Israel's occupation and de facto annexation or Palestinian land, and will kill tens of thousands of civilians and turn cities to rubble in furtherance of an eliminationist project which has no moral justification that is not also a justification for wiping out Israeli cities in pursuit of anyone who's ever served in the IDF or participated in Israeli government--from mailmen to city council members to desk clerks in the offices of the Knesset--for they are all Israeli terrorists in the same way that the Gaza health ministry is run by "Hamas terrorists" doctors and EMTs, and every male with a rickety Soviet rifle or just a scowl to direct at the murderous Israeli forces illegally occupying their land and now wiping out Palestinian society en toto inside Gaza is also a "Hamas terrorist". I would never dream of defending a policy of destruction like this targeting Israel. Yet every single Israeli arrogantly insists on the right of the IDF to do this to Gaza. You were not safe on October 7th because you kept millions of people in a cage without hope while their empty stomachs rumbled and memories of loved ones killed when Israel came in to "mow the lawn" returned each night to haunt their dreams. I am telling you, after what Israel has done since October 7th, it will never be safe again. I don't take any pleasure in that fact, but you'd be a fool to doubt it.

[@TheShacharZiv]

@@charlieschuyler_1992ny I feel like you are projecting on me what you've heard from all other 'Israelis'. I wasn't saying 99.9% of what you wrote. I support a just solution which could be a one state "one person one vote" including right of return, a federacy, or two states. All I said was that the implementation would be scary (which you acknowledged too) and challenging, which doesn't mean it's not necessary to do it.

[@markbadham3360]

In the days of Apartheid in South Africa, many people did used to say that the situation was uniquely complex, and I suppose every country does have its own unique complexities, however, these can also be used as an excuse not to recognize naked injustice.

[@Jonathanismyname]

Thank you

[@sunnyla2835]

Not so. South Africa was very simple comparatively speaking. I lived through that time, de constructed against apartheid SA, listened to Bishop Desmond Tutu speak at the Greek Theater in Berkeley, not at all complex

[@Jonathanismyname]

@@sunnyla2835 Israel had the support of most of the western public on October 8th because the past is very complicated heading back to the Stern Gang and what was happening in Europe at the time and how European Jews were gifted a land based on who won a European war. So yes it was complicated. But what’s happened over the past 20years is not complicated and the west is waking up to it. They no longer get just one side of the story.

[@Sammo212]

@@Jonathanismyname there has never been "one side of the story" but its certainly the new gaslight to say so.

[@Jonathanismyname]

@@Sammo212 really?! because as an American, I was told everyone who attacked Israel was a terrorist and the Israeli’s were just minding there own business and never did anything to anyone in the region deserve any anger or resentment. It was all just centuries of hatred. Turns out, both sides have deep and valid grievances. But the US media only showed one side. Truth is, in the beginning it Israel was the “underdog” by numbers but benefitted from the backing of Jewish European money. Today, Israel has one of the most advanced military in the world and is considering keeping a population of people who have no rights in an open cage using face tracking technology to monitor and punish anyone who so much as protests the dystopian hellscape they have created. Insane that they have that level of technology and military power in an area the size of NJ, but can’t respond to an attack through the most monitored boarder wall in the world in less than a few hours. Corrrct me if I’m wrong but can’t helicopters get across that country in 30 mins?. It’s almost like they were barely trying. You can’t be the most advanced military in the world but get caught with your pants down for hours.

[@raymoose8568]

These guys are great! It appears as if Glenn is caught by Artistic arrest and John wants the whole story.

[@alementary4065]

Gotta go with John on this one. Coates is an articulate simpleton, like Michael Eric Dyson.

[@jonbonhoagie5202]

If Michael Eric Dyson is articulate, then I'm Miles Davis.

[@alQarafi]

I guess Glenn never heard of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin or Ehud Barak, or Ariel Sharon. Compassion was tried.

[@cdcaleo]

How generous that the Zionists decided to be compassionate to people whose land was violently taken from them.

[@gabrielazki]

Yeah Rabin was shot by a Jewish terrorist who is venerated by a leading minister in the Israeli government, Ben-Gvir.

[@Genarii]

Arguably far too often and for far too long. It seemed to peak with the Gilad Shalit (sp) affair. How smart does that deal look now?

[@helpyourcattodrive]

I love John and I love Glenn. Thank you both so much.

[@JereKrischel]

John has severe TDS, but he is clear eyed on Coates.

[@lnddavis]

Agree. It's really strange to see him lambast the performative nature of race hucksters ... only to then himself recite the TDS catechisms that are required to remain in the good graces of the intelligentia.

[@kellymoses8566]

TDS is voting for Trump. Trump is a very stupid, very dishonest, very corrupt, very unethical, very selfish human being who should never be in charge of anything.

[@kellymoses8566]

@@lnddavis Trump is a performative race huckster himself. Remember when he lied about Hatians eating cats and dogs?

[@nordy1220]

I’m confused. Are we watching the same interviews, rally coverage, and debate coverage of Trump? Is John’s assessment of Trump deranged? Multiple things can be true. Some of the far left ideology can be terrifying, and Trump can be batshit insane-it doesn’t have to be one or the other.

[@christopherchadwick2659]

The people of Gaza knew that electing Hamas would lead to prolonged conflict with Israel. Maybe the people of Gaza are somewhat to blame for what's happening?

[@velocirshtr3756]

West Bank entered the chat lol can’t focus solely on Gaza when West Bank is being eroded and genocided. But ya blame a group that was in power since 2005 lol nice strawman

[@TheTerryE]

I love them both but Professor Loury made me really sad here.

[@AmericanShadewithBrittanyKing]

How can a man's opinion make you sad?

[@rocketpac]

I don’t feel sad, but I understand how the Terry feels. This may be uncouth to say, but it reminds of a book I just read, Kingmaker by Sonia Purnell, about how a beautiful woman can have a profound impact on the thought process of a man smitten by her charms😅

[@noahmyavon]

Glenn lost the plot ages ago when he was sipping tea with ginny Thomas

[@herkyswings]

21:03 When John and Glenn cannot agree on a basic premise of this discussion, they just end up talking past each other… which is both frustrating and sad as a listener.

[@Napalm6b]

If the Palestinians situation is such a humanitarian disaster why don't the surrounding muslim majority states take them in as refugees? After decades of murderous terrorist antagonism inflicted by Palestinians the Israelis are saying: enough is enough. I can't blame them.

[@jmagaram]

A related fact. There is significant legal discrimination against Palestinians in Lebanon. They can’t work in many fields and can’t purchase land. Muslim citizens (who sometimes call themselves Palestinian Arabs) in Israel have far more rights than the Palestinians in Lebanon.

[@OffbeatsMusic]

@@jmagaram 💥

[@shamsam4]

Thanks for the discussions.

[@Gaily1]

For my first time I’m all in with John. I understand how he feels because I understand the depth of this situation. Thanks, Glenn, I always appreciate your discussions with John. I just voted Trump/Vance 2024🎉🎈💪🏽

[@noahmyavon]

So did Glenn

[@ChelleyMadison]

I am with John, Glenn needs to stop bending over backwards on this.

[@joseywales148]

On what- the Apartheid regime or the genocide against the Palestinian

[@AvaSession7Ex]

Answer the question!

[@ninadaly7639]

It’s irresponsible of Coates to present his work as anything but his minimally informed opinion. That is NOT how his followers will receive it.

[@1Deep43VA]

You don’t NEED to know everything about the history to know something’s wrong. When we talk about the Holocaust, does anyone have to prerequisite with “it’s complicated”? No. There’s NOTHING you could say that would make it right. And that’s Coates’s POINT

[@TheShootist]

I would suggest rather, that caveat emptor applies in this instance.

[@chefiq]

I don't need a PhD to know that the indigenous genocide, slavery, Armenian genocide, Congolese genocide, the Holocaust, Srebrenica, Rohingya, three Gaza genocide were/are wrong. You're just a rabid Zionazi who fails to see Palestinians as humans

[@erickohner2205]

@@1Deep43VA Your statement is a false equivalency. Just like using slavery is a false equivalency. Coates point was to demonize Israel and give Hamas a pass. It's called antisemitism.

[@winnersfootballtv5517]

​@@1Deep43VA yes you need to know about history especially when every action is not done in vacuum.

[@lonecandle5786]

Because Coates is writing in a tradition that Glenn respects is not a defense of his actual argument, or whether it was a serious one.

[@arjay9745]

McWhorter making the convincing argument. Not used to seeing Glenn putting vague emotion over solid argument, but, there you have it. We're all susceptible, I guess. Anyway, thanks John.

[@MrSeeker2009]

I'm with John on this one.

[@ai_com]

Even when he imagines an argument to beat coates with, uses the term Muslim, thus ignoring Christian palestinians, and still calls coates lazy.....

[@siamcharm7904]

mcwhorter can always be relied upon to stand up for the establishment. and of course from a position of privilege.

[@ladymsthing6056]

Thank you for reading the book and giving us a thorough breakdown, John. I actually agree with you.

[@AP-pk6mk]

John literally said he didn't finish and started skimming it. Glenn read the whole thing

[@BeanMacdui]

@@AP-pk6mkThat doesn’t make John’s assessment any less credible. I checked the book out from the library and I found it to be like a quagmire of emotions with no real substance. I too ended up skimming.

[@AP-pk6mk]

@@BeanMacdui so you just did the same did John did, which is to say, not finish it. Let's not pretend it gives you special insight, it makes John exactly what he accused Coates of being: Lazy.

[@1Deep43VA]

I think John is dangerously coming close to becoming the woke he rails against. This idea that he can’t see ANYTHING from that book other than “white supremacy”, something that’s not even mentioned once, is pitiful. He comes across as a child in this segment

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

Fortunately, as you can see from the comments, no one believes that John McWhorter came across as a child in this segment. It's gratifying to see that your delusional take is endorsed by no one.

[@anitalee7681]

John is protecting his pay check.

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

@@anitalee7681 What a spectacularly stupid comment. What's it like to be this dumb?

[@siamcharm7904]

painfully establishment. dishonest also

[@stephenWHU]

Precisely. Just like Coleman Hughes.

[@PalestineDecoded]

When he put forward John Mearsheimer as someone who deserves serious consideration, it was obvious he's listening to the wrong people.

[@traviscutler9912]

What is wrong with Mearsheimer, he's been accurate for some time?

[@SigmaChuck]

Haven't read the book and I am skeptical of Coates since hearing his predictable and disingenuous support of reparations and his haiographic analysis of modern hip hop. BUT in the interviews of him that I have heard he emerges as a sensitive and careful thinker. Despite John's take, Coates very much showed a willingness to question his own point of view and that of his comrades in the Black Nationalist corners of the American intellectual community. I remember asking Kwame Ture (Stokely Carmichael), who was on a Detroit interview show years ago, how he could reconcile his Black ethnostate with his hatred of Zionism. He dodged the question but here Coates seems to take up the challenge.

[@t-townfoxtrot5181]

I think the most honest answer Coates could give your question is “willful ignorance”. And yes, I read the book. Additionally I have heard his much more damning interviews where he talks about what he deliberately leaves absent in his book. It’s not a good look. He’s able to craft much more brilliant prose on the page than into the mic. But in this case, his prose rather enjoys being an incomplete picture.

[@nairashvin]

I appreciated the debate! Would love to see more hashing out of where you two disagree

[@drandrewm]

The person who I agreed with before hearing or seeing this video made the better argument and is absolutely correct!

[@shorrodmcclain8777]

Who is that

[@drandrewm]

@@shorrodmcclain8777 It's a joke. I find that most KZbin comments fall in this category.

[@shorrodmcclain8777]

@@drandrewm ooh

[@NathanialAshtier]

@@drandrewm Very well done. :P I congratulate you. The only thing I agree with in this Rorschach of a comment section.

[@drandrewm]

​@@NathanialAshtierAt least you got the humor in my comment. I'm sure it's going over a few heads.

[@toddmccloskey9425]

I'm very happy to hear Glen make a distinction that (so far) he made but did not expand upon. Coats is making a moral argument not a political argument. John is upset about Coats not including the political argument. These two arguments are very different and need to be engaged separately to a great degree. From a political perspective we can talk about all the variations and nuances and major and minor events that got us here and frame them as being acceptable. But if where we got to is morally unacceptable then that needs to be stated. There might be a very complex, nuanced and historical rationals for making slavery, apartheid or any number of ills and can go to great lengths to express these. But from a moral standpoint the history matters much less than deprivation of what we as Americans see as foundational rights. There is no life liberty or pursuit of happiness in Gaza or the West Bank. Hasn't been there for a few generations. That is morally wrong- period.

[@LeviNotik]

It's striking to observe some of the initial reactions here-people obviously bring in biases they've developed elsewhere. Personally, I lean toward McWhorter's approach. Many Americans, with limited understanding of the region, tend to impose U.S. racial and political dynamics onto the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, missing its unique and complex layers. McWhorter is correct in pointing out that Coates hasn’t engaged with this complexity *at all*. Coates favors a simplified, sweeping narrative, but that approach is weak and inaccurate. As someone who greatly respects and admires Professor Loury, I’m disappointed to see him misled by Coates’ superficial take.

[@AC-ss5oy]

did you read Coates' book?

[@misteramerica-c6c]

@@AC-ss5oy clearly not 🤣

[@LeviNotik]

@@AC-ss5oy More than once. Coates is a gifted writer with a talent for persuasive prose, which is exactly why I find his influence on the discourse so damaging. He can be incredibly convincing to those who don’t know the basic facts about the conflict. People like the person who replied “clearly not 🤣” are so taken in by Coates that they can’t fathom how someone could read his work, recognize its appearance of depth, and still view it as a largely superficial screed. I can see through it because I’m well-versed in the history and complexities of that region and conflict.

[@PunkiBrooster]

What are these "unique, and complex layers?" I always hear about them, but never get to learn what they are...

[@adtastic1533]

Agreed. For a guy that hates imperialism so much he certainly loves to engage in a little American cultural imperialism.

[@lowtechbd]

Thank you, again.

[@derosa1989]

I appreciate the empathy Glenn expresses for the people of Gaza. They are real people who are suffering. It can be a challenge to focus on that when the discussion turns to who is to blame for that.

[@afritimm]

They have been offered a state for 90 years. They are quite explicit they dont want 2 states, they still dream of wiping Israel off the map. I have the same "empathy" for them that I had for the population of WW2 Germany.

[@afritimm]

I might appreciate that if he ever expressed empathy for: 1) Israelis who have been attacked, invaded, and murdered continuously for 75 years by Arabs including Palestinians 2) the victims of the unspeakable atrocities of 10-7 by...Palestinians 3) the victims of 1000s of indiscriminate rockets from Hamas and Hezbollah for years 4) the 650,000 Arabs killed by other Arabs in Syria. BUT.....he doesnt. It is hypocrisy, double standards, and anti-semitism. Pure and simple.

[@gandydancer9710]

Empathy for the people of Gaza -- at least those not responsible for 10/7 -- doesn't answer the question of how the Jews are supposed to defend themselves from attack in the Middle East.

[@afritimm]

@@gandydancer9710 I dont buy that Gazans arent responsible for 10-7 any more than I buy Germans werent responsible for the Nazi war machine. They all participated to one degree or another. We dont hear a peep of dissent by Palestinians, even the diaspora which is safe and sound. There are 100K-man protest marches in Iran. I've never seen 10 Palestinians marching against Hamas anywhere in the world. And of course the anti-Israel types that give lip service to the right of self-defense dont really mean it. Because they then object to every possible conceivable action Israel might take, other than "negotiation" aka leaving the terrorists in power to strike another day.

[@harrison3859]

@@gandydancer9710that argument doesn’t fly when the reason you’re being fought is due to direct occupation

[@oraz.]

I'm agnostic on Ta Nahesi Coates. I just like John+Glenn podcasts.

[@swcordovaf]

I saw the Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan. I have been to the West Bank in many communities. Palestinians live overwhelmingly better in Israel than in any place in other Islamic nations and it isn’t close. No one is crying out for Palestinians in Jordan or Egypt

[@ai_com]

How about the westbank and gaza.....

[@swcordovaf]

Not Gaza but yes I have been all over the West Bank

[@fate91583]

So what?

[@swcordovaf]

So What? Well when you pick and chose who and when you decide to be concerned, it reveals bias and absence of a broader picture.

[@fate91583]

@@swcordovaf I'm concerned about Palestinian self-determination.

[@Sammo212]

All it took for Glenn to side with Coates was for him to go full anti-Israel after being in the area for the length of a cup of coffee. Single issue persuasion apparently.

[@canteluna]

Coates begins his book like a letter: "Comrades, In the summer of 2022..." I don't know if his use of the term "comrade" is tongue and cheek or if he really wants to emphasize that this book is addressed to his commune and not the general public. So, right off the bat, we - the general public (or those of us proud not to be in the Coates commune) - are told this book is not for us. In fact, it is written for his students (past and present). And, being the man that can never frame any issue without bringing race and racism into his story, this is no exception. "[O]ur institution... was founded to combat the long shadow of slavery - a shadow that we understood had not yet retreated. This meant that we could never practice writing solely for the craft itself, but must necessarily believe our practice to be in service of that large emancipatory mandate." So, yes, Howard University could be said "to combat the long shadow of slavery" and then goes on to claim that the fact of slavery precludes African Americans (is he speaking of all descendants of slaves or those who attended Howard?) from practicing the craft solely for itself. But who does that? White people? Non-descendants of slaves? Ask any writer if they write solely for the sake of craft. What a cartoonish thing to say, and also shows a profound failure to understand why non-slave descendants write. Can he really be this obtuse or is the craft that so dazzled Glenn, really not always so dazzling? He also claims that Howard students, at least when they write, are mandated to so in the service of the great emancipatory project. Well, it is no doubt that Coates lives up to his own mandate (I can't speak for every writer who's a Howard grad). But is it really such a noble mandate to constantly have this project at the core of your every writing? Sounds totalitarian to me, like the Communists whose art was expected to always serve the cause, which sounds more like being a slave to a project than creating art to aid in emancipating yourself from your constraints or demons or whatever you wish to call them. Coates goes on: "But when you live as we have, among a people whose humanity is ever in doubt, even the small and particular ... becomes political. For you there can be no real distance between writing and politics. And when I saw that in you, I saw myself." Coates is not just talking about the past here, as he claims that his people's humanity "is ever in doubt", meaning has always been and will always be. I find it really sad that he makes no distinction between the past and the present. Clearly, the "humanity" of "his people" is not in doubt at this time. There is equality under the law (which is not to say that no racial discrimination is ever employed, but certainly, the law itself makes no distinction between various ethnicities or races). But Coates makes his living as a "race hustler", and so you can expect to find race-consciousness at the core of everything he writes. He admits it. And obviously, the more racism he can demonstrate, the more consistent - and relevant - he remains. He talks about finding in rap or hip hop music, a consciousness akin to his own: "I haunt if you want, the / style I possess / I bless the child, the earth, / the gods and bomb the / rest" (by Rakim and Eric B, 1988) Again, this sounds so revolutionary - in support of the cause -- so righteous. I can see why a precocious 13 year old Coates finds this verse inspiring; to be part of the revolution. At 13 this sounds cool, but what about now, at 49? Why must that which you don't find a part of yourself - or of your cause - deserving of destruction? Coates opens himself up to a criticism Glenn often makes which is that the left is constantly blaming their situation (violence and poverty in the ghetto) on racism, and so fail to take responsibility for the part they can take responsibility for. Those who have been historically discriminated against will "ever" be those who have been historically discriminated against, so if you can keep the rage alive, you've "ever" got books to sell. Coates writes, "I lived in a house overflowing with language organized into books, most of them concerned with 'the community.'" So, the precocious kid who loves reading is introduced - from an early age - to books with a specific political view (as I would take an educated guess that "the community" is about community organizing, etc., which is almost definitely to reflect leftist ideology). Frankly. I find this sad and peculiar. Most young male readers I would think would be looking for fantasy or some kind of literature to inspire their fertile imaginations. Reading about politics... ok, whatever floats your boat. But I would have to assume (I didn't read him saying so) that he probably overheard a lot of political conversations focused on race (I had Jewish friend whose parents were leftists and exposed him to socialism at an early age - unfortunately, I would add). I will stop here, due to the length of the post, and continue with more comments about the book. However, to conclude, I have no problem with the writing, but with the thinking behind it. I pointed out one profound error that, to me, should not escape a 49 year old writer at the height of his craft. The rest is just Coates going on predictably in his typical, leftist race-conscious manner. Glenn, I haven't got to the genius part yet.

[@LiViro1]

Whenever I hear Glenn talking about Palestine I'm aware of how he's often captured by emotional thinking. There's no reasoning, there's just talk about "babies", "slaughtering", maybe even "genocide". Yes, reality is ugly, but which war is trivial and nice? I'm as terrified by any picture of children suffering as I hope most people are, but that doesn't have much bearing on Israel's position and possibilities.

[@ejiropinnock8352]

War is inherently a choice also killing children is bad and a war crime. Now if you claim that there is a reason for that choice then state it properly the problem with Gaza is that anyone giving a cursory look at this would point out that Israel is the primary driver of the actions in the area

[@Brilly-gh8gp]

@@ejiropinnock8352 No. Pal's prepared for this conflict. Not just for the invasion a year ago but to deal with backlash. That preparation did NOT include anything to protect or defend civilians. Who weren't even allowed to safely evacuate by H.

[@sterlingveil]

The casualty ratio tells you exactly who is in the driver's seat of this "war".

[@eemoogee160]

You sound like an apologist for unimaginable crimes

[@Brilly-gh8gp]

@@eemoogee160 And you don't sound serious about helping to stop the cycle.

[@ericdowden4546]

It IS good to hear what the Black Conservative Elite think. It has been along time coming, and all voices need to be heard. I am extremely thankful to Glenn for recognizing the humanity of what is happening.

[@twatmunro]

Are they just reshowing the same content over and over or is this an actual new video on the issue? OK, new one. I usually side with Glenn over John when I watch these discussions. Today, I'm 100% with John. Glenn is just flat out wrong here. Like Ta-Nehisi Coates, he just hasn't done his reading on the issue.

[@litepiper1]

You've definitely piqued my interest in a writer I had previously considered. Thanks!

[@garfieldbraithwaite8590]

I am so conflicted. Coates is such a pernicious influence that I’d generally ignore him on purpose. When St Glen of Loury is so positive, generous and gracious what am I supposed to do? As a reasonable compromise, I’m going to get the audio book when Audible add it to their catalogue. That way, it won’t be on my bookshelf. It was a treat to hear these two disagree so agreeably.

[@cyberft]

It’s on audible now.

[@garfieldbraithwaite8590]

@@cyberft curses

[@cyberft]

@@garfieldbraithwaite8590 😂

[@joshfranklin9941]

Glenn has jumped the shark. It’s almost impossible to listen to him talk about this.

[@fabianmusefano6402]

I am reading it around Christmas holidays.

[@coltkom]

I'm normally agree with Glenn, but John is my man on this issue. Both are making great arguments.

[@siamcharm7904]

coates is head and shoulders above mcwhorter. intellectualy and morally.

[@BeanMacdui]

@@siamcharm7904Well, clearly there are a lot of people who disagree with you. I do as well. But we are allowed to disagree with each other.

[@ruffryder13]

Not only does Glenn continue to fail to defend the book's contents, he's now inflating the importance of it by saying people in the US never hear defenses of the Palestinian's humanity. There is not one person on the planet that will read the Coates book who has not heard of the plight of the Palestinians.

[@nursemcfarlane6655]

Name 2 Palestinians journalists or reporters on any news outlet or paper? Since you can not then it becomes obviously clear what Mr. Loury is saying about their voices. The average American including myself are just learning about the history.

[@Dalupa]

​@@nursemcfarlane6655 I can't name 2 israeli reporters or journalists either. Because I'm an ignorant American, not because of favoritism.

[@gabrielazki]

@@Dalupa Israel is a homeland for the Jews, right? So you have hundreds of Jewish journalists in American media. Especially when it comes to the conflict in Palestine they usually have Jewish journalists covering it.

[@yoavhi94]

​​@@nursemcfarlane6655 You know there are books written by Palestinians right? And there are Palestinian journalists and others(you might be shocked but Israeli journalists too) who are an outlet for Palestinian voices. What, just because there's no Palestinian reporter on msnbc/cbs/fox or there's no Palestinian writing for the nyt or atlantic it means they don't have a voice? You remember the internet? Google? If you want to hear Palestinian voices you can find them.

[@kg356]

@@yoavhi94 Point is that Palestinian journalists are vastly outnumbered by Jewish Zionists

[@user-he8su9oq8l]

Brilliant discussion.

[@dookula]

If you accept that the ongoing conflict is complex, how can you think it is a good idea to write, albeit beautifully, in support of only one side? Loury seems to have already concluded that the Palestinians are the victims and Israelis are the oppressors.

[@briannawilliams97]

Because Palestinians are the victims. Israel is the oppressor, but that doesn't mean that more transparency on both sides can still explain that how Israel has taken Palestine for its own

[@JamesMcNeil-c1z]

I haven't read the book, but now after hearing this critical analysis...wow????!!!! I have to take a breath.

[@Jacob-Vivimord]

John's right.

[@southmo]

John is absolutely correct. Coates is not a intellectual so to expect reasoned arguments for or against a topic is beyond his abilities. And to have any arguments against Israel protecting itself from terrorist attacks is simply a projection of anti Jewish sentiment.

[@intellectualnapalm_fba]

John’s take is (unironically) as lazy as your statement in support of him.

[@southmo]

Lazy as it may be. It's also the morally correct opinion. Hamas attacked israel. Israel destroys hamas. And if yr lazy enough to believe the body count numbers given by hamas then yr beyond discourse

[@bassandtrebleclef]

@@intellectualnapalm_fba you have to do better than this. John being correct has nothing to do with mindless 'nee-ner' debate that you seem to favor. Do better.

[@AjaxDGonzo]

⁠@@intellectualnapalm_fbathere’s pretty easy arguments against the book, John lays out the fact that he is mapping conflicts and issues on top of each other. Or that he said he basically says that October 7th was just a logical conclusion, when Coates says he could see himself doing that, I can understand if he means that in a sense that anyone born in an environment can do something heinous, that is clearly not what he means based on everything he has really ever put out or done.

[@user-pq7jj3vs3e]

Great discussion.

[@BushaBandulu]

Cut the cap! The Palestine issue is not “complexed”. That word is code to ignore facts and to continue the apartheid.

[@LESANHA]

Come on John, no one is talking about the tough questions: it was about his comment " the BACKPACK of an extremist" He was implying terrorism .

[@tallielance78]

Just like "the conflict" ... neither one of you will EVER come to an agreement on this book/this author. ** (We all have our OWN prejudices and biases, so we see EVERYTHING through those lenses.) ** Was waiting for this rematch & glad John finally read the book.😊

[@ThomasMaldonadoJr]

And yet Coates didn’t go to Jerusalem and try to access Masjid Al-Aqsa as an atheist. 🤔

[@mauinix4563]

I appreciate Glenn being charitable to Coates but nothing in the book hasn't already been said before. All he did was compare/contrast yet another group (Palestinians) to being African American. I mean what in that book surprised anyone familiar with his work?

[@bassandtrebleclef]

This is EXACTLY the issue. Coates is unable to see the world as it is. He sees it with an overlay of assumed oppressor/oppressed. It's like wearing ski goggles with a pink tint and thinking you're seeing actual colors.

[@deathbysloth]

Coates is a top-notch poet. But poets are often unreliable narrators.

[@adamwaterhouse]

So don't rely on his poetry. Find out what the human rights organisations have to say. The fact of the matter is that the two leading human rights organisations: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, as well as Israel's own leading human rights organisation B'Tselem have said that this is apartheid. So have many South Africans and veterans of apartheid in South Africa who have been there. Many have said that Israeli apartheid is actually far worse than the South African version. I recommend watching Occupation 101, Roadmap to Apartheid, and 5 Broken Cameras. All can be viewed for free on KZbin and will give you a bit more context to this.

[@ryansookram4023]

My guy im replying to you 2 hours after your comment, isreal just bombed a school and killed 17 children, please let me know if thats reliable enough for you.

[@snneka4252]

Then do your own research.

[@ninadaly7639]

Coates is an intellectual? Well that’s news to me!

[@chefiq]

You couldn't carry his dirty laundry

[@ai_com]

@@ninadaly7639 that says more about you than him surely

[@ninadaly7639]

@@ai_com Perhaps. But then again, how would you know?

[@TransRoofKorean]

@@ai_com What makes one an intellectual? Head-up-assery? or just Marxism? Apparently the latter is all it takes, these days, but I call it the former.

[@afritimm]

@@ai_com So a guy writes an entire book about the major geo-political issue of Israel and starts it out by admitting he really doesnt know anything about it except what he saw during a literary festival there.

[@helpyourcattodrive]

❤❤❤❤❤love you two. Thank you.

[@annechomyn]

Glenn and Coates could empathize with the Gazans in having been driven so much to desperation by Israeli oppression that they committed the horror of Oct. 7. Well, Glenn, there was very little oppression of the Gazans at that time. Israel had left Gaza completely in 2005 and Hamas was getting a lot of money from the international community. The attack on Oct. 7 had nothing to do with oppression. It had everything to do with Jew hatred and implementing the longstanding goal of Hamas (and Iran) to kill all the Jews in the Middle East, and later, in the world. Like John, I am disappointed in you, Glenn.

[@uedomwonyi]

Israel has blockaded Gaza since 2007.

[@Jonathanismyname]

They left in 2005 but don’t allow citizens to leave or return. Not allowed to leave a tiny piece of land surrounded by a fence/wall. Where food, supplies electricity are all controlled by Israel (we witnessed how easily the power and food were cut off) Taking Israeli citizens and soldiers out of Gaza is not that same as freedom and more people on the left and right are waking up to it. It’s obvious.

[@ChristopherStVil]

Couldn't John's book, "Losing the Race" about the negative impact of black victimization be applied to the Israeli situation? Loved this discussion.

[@agmvcc]

Ta-Nehisi Coates: Talk on his new book “The Message”: My paraphrases: “The enemy is those who fight against clarity.” My immediate thought was of Jessica Looman, author of the new US Department of Labor Final Rule on Independent Contractor Misclassification. She seems to be intent on making hear 44 page guidance as clear as mud. Coates' assertion is that “America wants us as blacks to think of ourselves as ugly and less than”. I am not of the mind that we are ugly I am not in that “pit” as he called it. I think we are absolutely equal to everyone else. No better. No worse. Verbatim I think “Questions are not good for hierarchies.” My immediate thought was of the handling of covid…. Criticizing what you haven’t received or consumed… He remarked that many of his critics obviously haven’t read his writings. My take away was that he is saying “Read first to determine what the content actually is. THEN take your shots at it or do with it what you will.” I believe in that. “Your oppression won’t save you“ Coates I agree wholeheartedly. I am not sure that puts he and I on the same page in general or that we see that phrase the same way. But I believe that one for sure… Paraphrased: The victims become the victimizers. He believes that is true in terms of Israel vs Palestine. The Persecuted Jews have become the Nazis, right down to committing genocide. How to not become the oppressor This didn’t really get any exposition that I gleaned. Coates “Don’t buy into the system.” Western hierarchy of wealth and worth. He said the dirt farmer has just as much worth as the billionaire or someone to that effect. I wholeheartedly agree. He implied that western thought is all wrong in terms of how we rate and rank each other. (Paraphrasing) I agree to a point. Not to the point of wanting to throw out western thought capitalism and become a socialist society. Often “it’s complicated” is a dodge”… I see that kind of dodge most regularly with Meta AI. Whenever it’s algorithm detects it’s having to divert form the decidedly left leaning bias of it’s programmers and developers and trainers it goes into what I’ve determined is safety mode where it starts hedging and has to be demanded to tell the truth. It quickly find information it had just said was not available to it and tells the truth. I have to drill down and sometimes several times admonish it to tell the truth, give only factual information without hedging. Typically, it says However it’s important to note… whatever ideological concept it wants to insert. Ultimately, if one tries and the information is actually in the system one can require it to do a factually, actual, real life, statistical analysis of a lot of data. That is why I engage with it. And it doesn’t get emotional or make personal attacks. Which I don’t fear or run from. I just don’t have time for them. All in all, I was glad I went. I found him charming and funny and intelligent. Even the points I agree with him on I don’t believe we would end up in the same place in terms of how to combat certain problems or what are problems to combat. There was a bit of the left of center ethos that I of course expected and was mildly uncomfortable with. Nonetheless, I was certainly pleasantly surprised to not have to writhe in my chair the entire time enduring a night of conservatives are this and that and Trump is Hitler. I had a wave of negative anticipation at dinner when one of my wife’s friends that we were with brought up Trump and the election and the fact that as a teacher she is trying to build progressive voters. I thought I was going to be in for a night of per hell and that turned out to not be the tenor of the evening. As an evangelical Christian, I spent the last portion of the night pretty keyed up about the section and talk about Israel and Palestine. My honest belief is that the true accurate and honest real life evidence does not support the assertion that Israel has become Germany and the Palestinian is the new Jew. I have extreme difficulty with that. I don’t remotely believe the evidentiary support is there. I don’t believe the intent on Israel’s part is there. gen·o·cide /ˈjenəˌsīd/ noun noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. "a campaign of genocide" What is the legal definition of genocide? The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. It does not include political groups or so called “cultural genocide”. Genocide Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Genocide Genocide is violence that targets individuals because of their membership of a group and aims at the destruction of a people. I don’t REFUSE to believe that Israel is capable of that. I simply do not believe for a single instant that that is in fact what is happening over there. That reminds me of a chilling thought Coates gave. He doesn’t believe it all ends over there. He believes America is culpable and funding genocide and that the comeuppance will not be limited to the Middle East. I believe he is correct in that. I don’t believe that such is warranted. I don’t believe Israel is perfect. I don’t believe the US is perfect. I don’t believe the Palestinians are perfect. I believe it is much more likely that Israel is a better place for many Muslims, Arabs, Palestininans etc than the rest of the Middle East. I believe that the US and the West are better for many peoples around the world in terms of safety and opportunity and freedom (like Israel is). I could well be wrong. I believe all people are created equal but I don’t believe all cultures are. Honor killings and Female Genital Mutilation are human rights violations not differences in culture. I don’t believe they are definitive of their cultures but there is a moral high ground to be noted. At any rate. That was my Ta-Nehisi Coates experience. I usually align with Glenn when you differ. I have only heard the talk, thus far. I was given a copy and will try to read it. I typically listen to audiobooks these days. At this point, I’m utterly aligned with John’s take.

[@joiedevie3901]

Glenn, thrilled that you are going to discuss Racecraft on an upcoming broadcast. One of the most brilliant treatises if not the most brilliant treatise on race ever written.

[@martinstillman9308]

Glenn, I find it disappointing that someone who is willing to carefully dissect and pick apart complex issues is content to brush that inclination aside when it comes to this topic. I agree with you on most issues and I revere you for being a voice of reason 99% of the time. But I can't put a finger on why your emotional pleas have become a suitable substitute for the reason and logic you usually employ when it comes to the Israel-Hamas war. I hope you start bringing some consistency back to the conversation.

[@ninadaly7639]

It’s because Glenn is conflicted. He seems to be trying too straddle 2 worlds!

[@adamwaterhouse]

Neither of them is especially well informed, but the fact of the matter is that Israel is enacting a brutal form of apartheid against Palestinians. I recommend watching Occupation 101, Roadmap to Apartheid, and 5 Broken Cameras. All can be viewed for free on KZbin and will give you a bit more context to this.

[@annechomyn]

@@adamwaterhouseNo. Israeli is living next to Jew haters and genocidal jihadists who want to exterminate their citizens. There was none of this oppression - the border wall, the checkpoints - until after the second intifada.

[@balle733]

Glenn Loury knows all the antisemites. Even brings their pictures on the screen to promote them.

[@notadane]

McWhorter - South African apartheid was a clear injustice. Palestine is complicated. South Africans who fought apartheid - what we have seen in Palestine is worse than apartheid. You be the judge.

[@adtastic1533]

@@notadane South African Govt is a clown car that can't even keep the lights on.

[@Itsstuff7328]

What do South African politicians know of Israel? Have they been there? Or are they doing it to save their political reputations with Iran and Russia and other allegiances in the middle east?

[@WizardMermen]

The ANC supports terrorist groups and authoritarian regimes. They are not the moral arbiters of anything.

[@olusojimarsh8539]

Whatever we might think about israel/palestine, I appreciate hearing this conversation. These are two people whose opinions I respect, showing how two people can, in good faith, land on opposite sides of this argument. I agree with Glenn, but I think i need to give people more grace.

[@krinniv7898]

Fight! Fight! 🤣 I love to see some genuine disagreement, great episode

[@johnl5316]

Coates is a hack.

[@stephenmcinerney9457]

Then interview and debate him to his face and motivate him to raise his game.

[@SuperRLA]

Please, please, try thinking for a change.

[@prycelessly]

This is a fascinating "book club" conversation! It sounds like Glenn & John read different books. I want to read the one Glenn read and pass on John's read. Lol. Now I must actually read this book to decide whose evaluation is correct. 👩🏻‍🏫

[@anthonybrakus5280]

I have a very good friend that I have come to respect and care for deeply. He is a successful business owner in America and now has U.S. citizenship. He was originally from Palestine, Gaza region. He has given me a remarkable perspective on the conflict. I used to be certain of who was right who was wrong. Now I am certain that I just want people to stop dying. One of the shocking, strangely interesting things he's told me is how he votes. He is quite conservative as far as his personal values but he will vote for someone like Ilhan Omar who he completely disagrees with on every other issue but Israel/Palestine. When I asked him to explain he says, "her and Thomas Massey is all we got." The narrative has always been crafted by masters of public relations to tell a glorious story of the returning home of Israel. The Palestinian people who remained in Mandatory Palestine after the Nakba were mostly peasants with a forecasted literacy rate of 10%. They are way behind in propaganda. Most westerners don't know what the nakba even is. Or that former prime minister Ariel Sharon is known by the nickname "the butcher of Beirut" for his early work with the Haganah. I have criticisms for the way the Palestinians have reacted to Israel's newest manifestation but as Ghasan Kanafani would say, "these are conversations being had between the neck and the sword." We have heard Israel's story and little else, let's give the native Palestinian a chance to be heard. ❤

[@esarge66]

I do intend to read "The Message," when it comes available at my local library. I intend to read it for its message to writers by a master wordsmith, and I hope to glean some small bit of his seductive appeal to emotion and the way he weaves himself into his experience. I do not expect any objective evaluation of actual circumstances on the ground. Having read a dozen reviews, I hear a lot of complaints about glaring omissions, oversimplification, a one-sided perspective, but it strikes me that everyone's expectations are a bit too high. After all, has Coates not been spending a lot of time rewriting the tales of some superheroes? To approach the tragic irony of the Arab Israeli conflict, one cannot condense it down to a comic book with one side pure good and the other pure evil. This is a story of tribes trading blows for centuries in a perpetually shifting landscape, the most recent volume possibly beginning with the collapse of the Ottoman empire, the rearranging of borders, and the solidification of the idea of nation states. Tribal hatred and arrogant overconfidence led six Arab armies to attack the 1 day old state of Israel, resulting in a humiliating defeat and the displacement of more than half million Arabs. The next significant chapter might begin with the six days war which delivered another stinging defeat to the Arab armies and ended the dream of pan-Arabism. At this point, the Soviet Union got involved, taught the fighters many nasty tricks, supplied materiel, and the Palestinian movement kicked into gear, committing a hundred terrorist attacks in 1968. Israel was now a game piece in the cold war with the US as its protector. There were times when things were not so bad, Palestinians took the bus to work every day in Israel, but the first Intifada created a need for tightened security, and the terrorists became so devious, even pregnant women had to be searched (which was humiliating and enraging). This latest chapter might be seen as harvesting of a bitter fruit, the root of which tunneled under Gaza for nearly twenty years, fueled by resentment and a lot of cash from many players on the world stage, Palestinians made their home into a fortress with battle plans for a final end to the Jewish state. From one perspective, every scoop of soil removed, every kilogram of concrete installed, every cached RPG, every well concealed tunnel entrance was an investment in doom for Gaza. The very protection the fighters made for themselves ensured the destruction of the old Gaza. People decry Israel's heavy hand, and yes, I agree all wars should end tomorrow, but the momentum of this saga heeds the shrieking of no woman or man. The players are driven by forces so ancient and strong that certain things just have to play themselves out. As for the new Gaza, I see wealthy people salivating, licking their chops. That's some valuable property there, and Palestinians may rue the day they started yet another war with the state of Israel.

[@jmagaram]

Good idea to get it from the library so you don’t put extra money in Coates’s pocket. It took Abbas six months before finally criticizing Hamas for what they did on October 7 and they recently mourned their “great leader Sinwar.” I see no indication the Palestinians will take any responsibility for their situation recently or since the 1920s. It’s innocent victim all the way down.

[@Jonathanismyname]

Saying this conflict is ancient and it’s based in anything other than the founding is comical. Palestine was 10% Sephardic Jew before anyone showed up from Europe. There wasn’t any conflict in Palestine between Muslims and Jews because the Jews there weren’t creating boundaries and excluding anyone. Has Israel and its founders don’t anything wrong? Stern Gang? Has Israel done nothing wrong? I’m curious if you see this conflict as “one-sided” because it seems like you find nothing wrong with anything Israel has done. I haven’t read his book. I don’t like Coates. But as an objective outsider and someone who leans fiscally right and as a Christian, I’m having trouble understanding why the American taxpayer would want to to support a political ideology akin the Bush administration and seemingly adopting it’s foreign policy. You said Palestinians might “rue the day they started another war” Hamas speaks for the Palestinians the same way the Biden administration speaks for Americans. No people are a monolith. It seems like it’s the Israeli’s who are increasingly isolated politically and fiscally, while their people are fleeing the country. Just because the Palestinians get displaced for rich Israeli developers doesn’t mean Israel wins.

[@jmagaram]

@@Jonathanismyname It is ancient. Look at the mosque on top of the ancient Jewish Temple Mount. For centuries Islam has been aggressively conquering the world. Hamas and Iran want to regain the glory of Islam through additional conquest while countries in the Abraham Accords have decided a better path is modernization, economic development, and acceptance of Israel. I'm not sure where you go with saying everything was fine before the Jews wanted sovereignty and their own country. Are you suggesting they should have accepted Muslim overlords and hope it all worked out? Jews learned through centuries of oppression leading up to the Holocaust that they have to be masters of their own fate. They were Dhimmi in Muslim countries. All you have to do is look at how the Jews were quickly thrown out of all the Arab countries and Iran to see how truly vulnerable they were. I believe the Jews should be able to fully develop their own culture, laws, traditions, etc. without compromise. One analogy is a movie or restaurant. We don't want movies to have 2 directors, and don't enjoy going to French/Mexican restaurants. Each culture is unique and it is best if they can see their vision through. In this particular case, and because the Arabs rejected the 1948 partition plan and tried again to destroy Israel in 1967, Jewish sovereignty came at the expense of Palestinian sovereignty. Maybe this is a zero-sum conflict.

[@1Deep43VA]

You don’t NEED to know everything about the history to know something’s wrong. When we talk about the Holocaust, does anyone have to prerequisite with “it’s complicated”? No. There’s NOTHING you could say that would make it right. That the key take away for me.

[@Dalupa]

Moronic. If Jews in Germany were acting like Hamas, we would would have a very different account of those events. It is precisely these comparisons that are so risible.

[@StateOfChaos]

There is no correlation between a land dispute and the holocaust. You're simply grabbing an event out of a hat and trying to make it relevant. It's not relevant and has no corollary here.

[@noahghost4476]

​@@Dalupayes, agreed, it's moronic. It would be convenient if things were so simple. But if somebody attacks you, you have to restrain them. And then while he is still struggling to get an arm free to hit you with, an anti-zionist will walk by and say, how dare you! Where is your humanity!

[@KidCapers]

@Dalupa Moronic. Gaza was established as a refugee camp in 1968. Hamas was founded in 1987. The inhumane treatment of the Palestinians by Israelis is due to their occupation of land, not their retaliations. You don't understand what you're talking about. You've had a year to research and come to a better understanding. Why haven't you?

[@1Deep43VA]

@@Dalupa No tf we wouldn’t. Not that you could EVEN compare the two. But even if, in your moronic example, there is NOTHING the Jews could’ve done that would have made it alright to systematically kill them and put them in camps, gas them, etc… The fact that you let this moronic statement come out of your mouth is astounding.