God and Atheism | Pints with Aquinas | Episode 205

[@pintswithaquinas]

Thanks for watching, y'all! Hop you enjoyed. Feel free to share your thoughts and questions about the story below or here: 🔴www.patreon.com/posts/36986185

[@nicholasstevenson6684]

You misspoke (48:10). Thomas received two letters, not Peter. But I liked the story a lot.

[@johnduns3216]

@Matt Fradd Thank you for this Matt. I will admit, I was surprised to see you with a copy of Wippel's work. It's nice to see your interest in heavy duty Thomism, instead of just popular stuff. A few questions: I. Could you elaborate a bit about the purpose and goal of your story? I must say that I found it fascinating and the ending really did catch me off guard. I really want to know what was the motivation behind the specific narrative you've outlined here? I have read your work with Dr. Delfano and there is a striking contast here, compared to that dialogue with Lucy and AJ. Why did you want to structure the dialogue on this way? And end it like you did? Would love a bit more of your thought on that matter. II. Why did Peter steal Thomas' fiance? There didn't seem to be any build up to it, other than Catherine not responding to Thomas. Is that why Peter did not want to meet Thomas face to face? III. Thomas seemed to be spiritually mature and competent Christian. What was the sudden change with him going to Protestantism? Would love to explore a little more of your thought here. Bonus question. Not related to your story, but just like the Angelic Doctor himself, shouldn't we steelman and deal with the best of our opponents? Picking on Dawkins and the "New Atheism" is getting old. I'd love to see you interact with the titans of philosophical Atheism such as J.L. Mackie, and J.H. Sobel (who critiqued Aquinas extensively in "Logic and Theism"), as well as the best Atheists today like Graham Oppy (who Dr. Craig mentioned), Evan Fales, Feliple Leon, etc. Cheers

[@Seethi_C]

Wow, I can’t believe you were able to get Aquinas onto your show

[@pintswithaquinas]

I had to pull some strings.

[@josephbarlow183]

xD

[@joelmontero9439]

Hi Matt really good story I felt it very real because I was an atheist myself and I became Catholic just lest than a year ago at 21 years old, I wasn't a mockery atheist I was raised Catholic and I've been whit really good Catholics all my life specially my mother, the problem was that I didn't believe the things that my mother or my highschool partners believed, so when I became catholic thanks first to Jordan Peterson, and then to Bishop Barron (that makes the best analogies, I use them all the time) I had whit me almost the same kind of conversations about Christianity that you did in your short story, it was really good keep it up the good work Matt and God bless🔝 P.S. When will you have Brant Pitre or Mike Aquilina on the show? I am really fan of history, that was the other thing that brought me into the Church, so would be awesome to have them on the show🖒

[@ooooooppppp11]

Getting a C.S. Lewis vibe from this. Nice work Matt

[@ryanneclaritas]

I really liked the calling out of the conferences packed with people in a dark room. I'm a new convert to Catholicism, but it's exactly those types of conferences/sects of Christianity that dissuaded me from converting.

[@Maskedlapis64]

Matt, I loved this! I read your book on the Socratic dialogue and the five ways when it came back and loved it. This is excellent as well!! You’re writing style is very entertaining and the dialogue sounds real. Loving the new look, the awesome philosophy and theology content, the writings (this one, sibling horror, and that new super power one) and looking forward to your new content with Cameron. I look forward to your Spanish videos you’ve been speaking of, God is using you immensely and you are adding your special touch to the Catholic world. Thanks again, I loved this and I will listen to it again and again!!

[@matthewfradd]

Wow, thank you.

[@Isaac_El_Khoury]

Splendid story. Well done Matt. Thank you for being my strongest role model in my life. God bless.

[@MiguelLopez-sf3in]

Really well written story Matt. I was engaged the entire time. Hopefully you continue the story? I felt pretty sad when how Thomas and Peter's story ended.

[@NotFromConcentrate]

Wow, that ending...chills

[@flowinproductions6416]

great story, i thought i saw a different ending coming, and thought i caught a hint in the 7th letter, but i guess i was wrong! i love that you write things like this and just post 'em up. i'm a writer myself by haven't worked the nerve to release anything, whether a series of novels or just some short stories. might be a stupid question, but what do you think it is that allows you to confidently (not in a negative way) produce such a variety of content, including stuff like this? do you think a major reason is having a rather large following that you trust will support you? i'm sure you have better things to do than respond to things like this, but in any case i loved the story and hope to see more stuff like this!!

[@tMatt5M]

Really clever ending. Bravo!

[@naturalisticallyinclined7702]

Matt, you would love this: "An Atheist and a Christian Walk Into a Bar" by Justin Schieber and Randal Rauser

[@pintswithaquinas]

I've read it. Loved it. Admire both those guys.

[@naturalisticallyinclined7702]

@@pintswithaquinas Yes!!! I'll send you another book that you will *love* via a personal message on Facebook.

[@Ja5onASmith]

Looking forward to this. I’ve got a channel launching that has Catholic content in my Vlog.

[@holysmokes2374]

Hi Matt, I’m thinking about canonically asking to switch to an Eastern Rite Church and I’ve been trying to wrap my around St Gregory Palamas’ teachings on the Essence-Enrgies distinction and if that squares with the Latin Tradition or not. I wondered if you studied this at all. Personally, it appears that Thomism and Palamism contradict, but I don’t think that is necessarily a problem, considering the Trinity is a mystery and ultimately beyond our rational comprehension. Anyways, cheers! Christ is Risen!

[@MouthwashTyphoon]

That was interesting. It’s not the style of story I would normally choose to read, but you managed to pull it off well. Did it take a while to write?

[@pintswithaquinas]

About two days.

[@killianmiller6107]

You mentioned there being more than 5 arguments from Aquinas on God’s Existence. Where can I find out about these extra arguments? Google isn’t helpful because they all only talk about the five ways.

[@junelledembroski9183]

Really really good story!! Bravo! 👏

[@joshuaraymond9541]

I spot Feser's Five Proofs book on the left of the bookshelf!

[@bham7bh]

This short story is awesome.

[@pintswithaquinas]

Hey, thanks so much!

[@baguette7851]

10:20 infinites do exist within the universe to my knowledge, but not as an infinity "that can be transversed". i believe singularities have an infinite density; that is, there exists mass, but no volume. how could this be possible?

[@bohdan_zoshchenko]

I am at beginning of video but already awesome

[@stevelawrence5268]

An Atheist is in fact a Theist in God Almighty but devoid of the qualities of the grace Christ .

[@bham7bh]

This story is so great, but I cant help but feel that I'm listening to a Milo Yiannopoulos audio book lol, you really sound alike through my speakers!

[@classicalmusful]

that's not a good thing. that man is a white supremacist

[@jmctigret]

The story reminded me of C. S. Lewis or Peter Kreeft. Nice story.

[@JamesWilliams-eu5mn]

Like the beard! I have a question, has he covered Vatican 2? I'm trying to slowly understand V2 and I'd love to hear the facts not just opinions. Does anyone have any suggestions of podcasts or books i could get on the subject?

[@deaconken3752]

the beard is cool! So is the story.

[@haydongonzalez-dyer2727]

Thought the story was not bad. I do have three criticisms. The letter aspect, while a story in letters is not itself a bad idea, the execution felt rather forced. Second the atheist convert seemed unusually well versed in Christianity as he almost immediately begins quoting scripture and possesses an unusual religious maturity. He just seems like he had converted years ago rather than days ago. The other complaint is more a personal taste of mine. I like happy endings. Neither character ended up Catholic, and from how I understood the story, both appeared to subscribe to the condemned opinion of polygenism. I don’t think you intended to have a hero of the story who would be victorious but I think happy endings or happier endings help facilitate a feeling of resolution.

[@pintswithaquinas]

Thanks for the feedback, Haydon.

[@haydongonzalez-dyer2727]

@@pintswithaquinas I honestly was not expecting a response. I feel like Beyonce just shook my hand. I love the work you do! God bless you and may you continue to glorify God by your life!

[@whoami8434]

I wasn’t going to stay for the story, but I did.

[@pintswithaquinas]

Aaaaaaaand? :)

[@whoami8434]

Matt Fradd I’m unsure of the target audience. It was a fascinating story and I was definitely engaged the whole time. You actually made a really good point about the absurdity of considering ideas in isolation from where they come from to make them seem “silly” as if that were an argument against them. I feel like atheists do this all the time not only to argue against theists, but to reinforce their own psychological determination to remain atheists. Overall, I liked it. The part where the theist turned atheist binged William Lane Craig videos gave me a good laugh. Makes me glad I graduated from Craig to people like Feser, David Bentley Hart, Stephen Clark, Aquinas, and others (including yourself). Thanks for keeping up with this podcast, by the way. It would be a shame if you ever stopped.

[@TheRealShrike]

Matt, a good topic for you to explore would be what Aquinas would see differently today. In other words, if he were writing today, unhampered by 13th century superstitions, what views of his would change? I think, for example, his views on human sexuality would be different. And what about Adam and Eve, the garden, etc. Surely a man of his intellectual caliber would have to grapple with the cold hard facts that so much of the OT is probably historically untrue? What does it mean for Moses to never have really existed? Or the garden of eden? Or Adam and Eve? Serious questions, friend. I wonder if the good doctor would have pondered these questions and agree more with, say, Chardin, then you'd like to admit?

[@drycleanernick7603]

What does ending mean? Full circle as in since he’s evangelical he will inevitably fall to modernism? Then atheism?

[@matthewfradd]

What Pope Pius X meant as a warning, Peter now sees as a promise. Three steps to liberation: 1. Protestantism, 2. Modernism, 3. Atheism. Peter sends the note because Thomas has left the Catholic Church and has become a Protestant. He tells Thomas they should talk when he comes "full circle." That is, an atheist again.

[@cipher1144]

@@matthewfradd Great story. I didn't know about that quote but the warning is on point. I've seen that cycle in people around me during my life, and even in me to some degree. Both, those who started as an atheist and those who are unconvinced believers. Seems the root for both kinds of people who fell into this cycle is a deep wound leaved by uncertainty and the lack of an epiphania in one's path. Short story but gives you much to think about, love it.

[@justintrefney1083]

Bravo!

[@Seethi_C]

Did Aquinas not think Divine Hiddeness was a valid argument for atheism? Or was that concept not developed yet?

[@pintswithaquinas]

It's a good question. Perhaps if he heard a full-fledged argument from divine hiddenness he'd categorize as a subset to the problem of evil. Does that make sense? If God is good he would want me to be aware of him so I could know him and love him ... but I'm not aware of him (something he could change), therefore ...

[@theoskeptomai2535]

Atheism doesn't need to be argued. It is not a claim, proposition, system, belief or ideology. Atheisnm is the position of suspending acknowledgement of the existence of gods until sufficient evidence can be presented. It is natural, rational, and prudent to be skeptical of unsubstatiated claims, especially extraordinary ones.

[@Autobotmatt428]

You really should get david bently hart

[@seethroughthelies7070]

You could consider presuppositional arguments almost as a fourth category

[@beyondenigma-esotericsecre9175]

*BEST argument for God's existence is YOUR* own. People fail to see the logic!Listen THERE has to be source (I don't care if the source is a twinkie 🍪). To say not is a BIG fallacy(failed logic)!

[@maxgirouxpro]

I like your beard. way better than mine.

[@hellebartelsen8208]

I don't think the problem of evil disproves God. Doesn't it just disprove that God is good?

[@pintswithaquinas]

Except "all good" is essential to what God is in a similar way to how "3 sided" is essential to what a triangle is. Just like you can't disprove the three-sidedness of triangles and still have triangles, you can't disprove the all-goodness of God and still have God.

[@maria1060-f1q]

@@pintswithaquinas I have wondered about this question so many times! Thank you for such a clear answer.

[@carsonwall2400]

The logical problem of evil is generally agreed to be discredited, but the empirical problem of evil is still advocated by many atheists.

[@Noone-cn6ow]

I did not really get it I mean why would you think atheism is the most rational explanation. I am sorry if you find it offensive but atheism believes their is no God no Ultimate power and isn’t it obvious that nothing can come from nothing like 0+0+0=0. And in my opinion Islam is the only rational religion because like other religions it does not asks for blind faith it gives you reason understanding logic to believe. Take for example the miracles found in the Quran 1.Origin of life "WE HAVE MADE EVERY LIVING THING FROM WATER WILL THEY NOT BELIEVE?" (QURAN 21:30) Now we know that all living things are made of cells and cells mostly consist of water. 2 Big bang theory "HAVE THOSE WHO DISBELIEVED NOT CONSIDERED THAT THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM" (Quran 21:30) As you can see this verse clearly explains the concept of big bang. 3. Iron "WE SENT DOWN IRON, WHEREIN IS GREAT MILITARY MIGHT AND BENEFITS" (QURAN 57:25) Scientists have proved that iron is not from the earth. Billions of years ago earth was struck by meteorites which carried iron from distant stars that exploded. And there are many other signs facts that can be found. And many others you can say it was mere hypothesis but if this was the case don't you think at least one mistake could have been proven in the Quran like many other man made scriptures. I am not asking anyone to accept Islam I am just asking to you to know about this religion.. If you think I am wrong feel free to guide me. 🙂

[@TomAnderson_81]

The best argument for atheism is that the burden of proof is on the theist.

[@pintswithaquinas]

I agree the theist has a burden of proof but so does the atheist. Look, there are three ways to respond to the question, "does God exist?" 1. Yes (theist), 2. No (atheist), 3. I don't know (agnostic). If you say no that is just as much a claim to knowledge as saying yes. Now, If you want to redefine atheism to make it almost indistinguishable from agnosticism (obviously agnostics don't have a burden of proof since they make no claim) then, okay. But this smells fishy to most theists. If the atheist now says, "no, I don't need to prove atheism, atheism just means a lack of belief," this is admission of sorts, it seems to me. Namely, all of the old arguments for atheism (the problem of evil, the incoherence of God, the problem of God's hiddenness, etc. etc.) fail. ... If the atheist doesn't think they fail, then surely putting them forward rather than redefining atheism would be the way to go.

[@TheRealShrike]

@@pintswithaquinas Please understand that the definitions of words *change* over time. The best way to have a discussion with an atheist or agnostic is to start by actually *asking* them how they define the word in question. Most of the popular skeptics on youtube these days are using the term to mean simply that they don't buy the evidence presented to them. It is unfair for you to dispute their assertions by simpling arguing over the definition of the word atheism. I respectfully submit that your approach above comes across as mere tired wordplay and you can completely avoid that complication by *asking* your debate opponent to define the term as he/she uses it. Very simple. Also you state "...all of the old arguments for atheism...fail..." Methinks that is a strawman. I don't really see "arguments *for* atheism" on the tubes. More like arguments that the evidence is not convincing. This strikes me as a disingenuous restatement of the problem. The essential problem is that faith/theism can be an extremely difficult prospect to defend in light of the cold hard reality of the world, problem of evil, etc. Dismissing that fact with hand-waving or pompously dismissive wordplay is not helpful and it demeans the daily struggle of those of us in the middle (for example, me, a Catholic who is now leaning toward skepticism) who don't really know what to think. Edit: When conservatives make things a binary choice they really push away honest seekers who are re-evaluating the entire enterprise. At the end of the day, if you want to win a debate over a word meaning, fine. Let's just go with the word "skeptic" instead of either of the "A" words. Then can the intelligent debating please begin?

[@killianmiller6107]

The hard part about convincing a skeptic is that you are trying to convince a skeptic. It is very easy for the skeptic to deny someone’s point as ridiculous or dishonest, basically they just have to say “I’m not convinced, try harder lol.”

[@pintswithaquinas]

@@TheRealShrike Two "ughs" ... nice.

[@TomAnderson_81]

Matt Fradd _there are three ways to respond to the question, "does God exist?" 1. Yes (theist),_ No need to go further. This is where it ends. The one who says “Yes” is the one who has the burden. Can you or anyone fulfill the burden? An atheist is more like someone who listens to the unproven explanations, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc, sees the lack of evidence and simply asks for support and proof of the claim and politely states he will wait till the burden is met. Can you meet the burden? Anyone......