What Should a Local Church Look Like? | Mark Dever, Tim Keller, and Crawford Loritts

In this panel workshop from The Gospel Coalition’s 2011 National Conference, Mark Dever, Tim Keller, and Crawford Loritts sort through the Bible’s teaching to describe the mission and makeup of the local church.

[@jeanmilhollin5176]

Thank you. Preacher

[@rjthomasindyusa]

I entered into Church membership when God regenerated my heart......

[@wongsikiongwongsikiong4296]

Be joined to the body of Christ and built into the holy temple of God.

[@gloria2641]

What an informative session! Thank you for posting this! It was funny too!

[@documentingordinarythoughts]

This was great in some many ways ! Thank you !

[@tomsikes9064]

Thank you men of God. For bridging some of the gaps in the fellowship of the believers.

[@salvatorecassius9498]

I know im randomly asking but does anybody know of a trick to get back into an Instagram account? I stupidly lost the login password. I love any assistance you can offer me!

[@alfredomajor9241]

@Salvatore Cassius instablaster ;)

[@caroltaylor3414]

I had a friend that went to Chuck Smith's church in Las Vegas... it was very big, but instead of Chuck doing 4-5 services they had 4-5 different pastors that each took a service. So it was almost like 4 different "churches" using one building. But I am so glad you are addressing the video church issue. I've always thought that was a control issue, or idolizing a personality. What happens when that person leaves or dies? Do you just keep replaying the sermon archives?

[@agma19]

I would be very much open to a membership process because it's an opportunity for the person seeking a Bible-teaching church to find out what the church is about, whether the church is a place where they can grow but also receive support and discipleship in the word. There are churches that rely on their small groups to nurture "the church" alone.

[@FRN2013]

I don't see why expositional sermons are awesome & topical sermons are frowned upon. I think most of the books in the New Testament are topical sermons, sometimes multiple topical sermons in each letter. If the sermon is packed with Scripture that's handled faithfully & delivered with the help of the Holy Spirit, it WILL bless the church.

[@RevelationMinistries114]

I agree. The topical sermon has to be Biblical, and scripture has to be kept in its scriptural context, but I'm not against topical sermon if it is done Biblically and in the Spirit.

[@FRN2013]

J Pep, I certainly did not question why expositional sermons are awesome.

[@FRN2013]

J Pep, when did you survey all churches everywhere to learn that "most topical sermons" are seeker-sensitive and watered-down?

[@FRN2013]

Legalism: Making rules when God has not made them, and proudly looking down your nose at those who break your rules.

[@celestedejesus1372]

Very good stuff! 😊 thank you!

[@offthekirb]

Do you think OA preaching can still be a goof form of evangelism in a small local church?

[@marcfalmer]

OA??

[@Trivium1989]

@@marcfalmer - open-air preaching.

[@riverjao]

My goodness...the membership requirements for that guys church!!!!! It sounds like it would be easier to become the POTUS!

[@masteringr6714]

Enjoyed the conversation, however, their talk on evangelism was a little confusing. Made it sound like sharing the Gospel isn't really evangelism or isn't enough to call it evangelism. Almost seemed like they were talking more about discipleship when using the word "evangelism" (and they even used it interchangeably at one point) which is completely different than evangelism.

[@JesseCaudill]

The big idea for Proverbs 11 could be "The Character of God"

[@amjadjadallah2237]

I spent my life with evangelical churches and was introduced to local church by my wife, did not hear about it before, It is true and I did not hear or read anything against Christian faith that I know, more meeting and home meetings and Christian conferences and gatherings that strengthens the Christian group, since brother Lee from China it has Chinese culture of solidarity, We as Christians should practice mercy instead of watching one another to criticize. any one believe in Jesus in the World and go to church and read bible and make it live, is my Christian brother ( Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Local Church, Pentecostal, Presbyterian.. .....etc

[@mr.thinker2273]

No thanks to the Local Church of Witness Lee.

[@jamesbertram7925]

Have you ever read John chapter 5v39-47, where He who is eternal Light and Light said that the reason for the scriptures was to guide us to Him , just as the reason for the giving of the Holy Spirit is to guide us to Him , and that is was possible to focus on the writings of Moses and fail to find Him, Every denomination reads the scriptures through the lens of their religious leaders , ands the Lord said to the leaders in His day, youn are blind leaders of the blind, because He said you will not come unto Me that you might have Life

[@Chirhopher]

Better see: AGC

[@sgusjsk]

Loool the fact this question has to be raised is ridiculous. Let whoever of whatever skin colour come. Some areas have high concentration of one ethnicity over another it is bound to happen. So realistically, it won't be possible.

[@chinojarjos]

Who is John MacArthur? ;)

[@nl9490]

John MacArthur is a very expository preacher. He went all the way to Supreme Court to open churches when govt tried to shut down of gathering of believers. You should check his sermon. He truely grounded me from prosperity sermon. He isn’t afraid of speak the truth. Also Gary Hamrich and Jack Hibbs….up afraid of anything what’s revealed in the Bible. Jesus said to all the prophets don’t silence anything. Many pastors silence the warning sign Jesus give…Matthew 24:1-50/2 Timothy 3:1-9/Daniel 7-9/Ezekiel 38-39/ 1 Thessalonians, and Revelation is God’s final wrath….look up all these…❤️🙏🏽

[@geofpichora4521]

Why did Denver and Keller monopolize? It seemed like someone in the background on occasion reminded them that there was a third person listening in on the conversation and glanced at Loritts to show he was not totally being ignored. Tim and Mark need to take social skills 101.

[@AnHebrewChild]

I noticed that too.

[@StephenRajMoses]

The thumbnail looks funny 😁

[@mimitovar7335]

Praise God for church membership, discipline and accountability because we need these things to grow healthy in Christ. Christ does not do away with any of these things so why should the church that He bled and died for?

[@philipbuckley759]

interesting, the use of the term....they.....sort of says it all....us, and them....so what hope of getting any Biblical perspective, here....uh......dont think so...

[@michaelmontes9135]

It's Jesus Christ Centered Period.

[@bonafidetom52]

As long as there is a clergy laity divide with pastors taking the lead away from Holy Spirit we will continue to have these mini kingdoms being built that are an extreme waste of resources, do little to build up or equip the body to do the work. They produce multitudes of self help sermons, lots of back slapping, see you next week for another entertaining session and very little on the relational side.

[@drayjaycee9419]

You do that by having leaders that lead by the example and command Jesus gave: "“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave"... So, a leader comes under their flock, props them up, is a slave to Christ who bears the burdens of the weak, sacrifices all his time and resources and knowledge and wisdom to building up strong disciples. Where there is then no more clergy laity, but a body of Christ, led and constructed according to the same purpose as we see in Romans 12, Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4. Do you have skype brother? Would be good to all fellowship on there and discuss some of these issues in greater depth :) Peace and grace to you

[@bonafidetom52]

Sorry I haven't been here to respond. The verse you mention is an interesting one. Here is my take on it. A teaching elder, yes I believe in those, is accountable to God for what he teaches and the example of his daily life, they also carry the responsibility to love and care for the spiritual well being of those they are in regular fellowship with and to help protect them from error. The word obey used once in the New Testament in character with the rest of scripture can mean, allow yourself to be persuaded. Jesus taught servant leadership and not a hierarchy top down model. No epistle you will note was addressed to the pastor or priest of any particular church but to the saints. Pastor is only mentioned once in the NT, you should find that odd since almost the entire modern world embraces the single pastoral model of church leadership. I don't subscribe to all of Frank Viola's views but his book Rethinking the Wineskin opened my eyes to much of this It was redone with George Barna as Pagan Christianity. They go into the pagan roots of many of the churches adopted beliefs and practices if you are interested.

[@bonafidetom52]

Andre, I don't have Skype but I have Google chat and my e-mail is [e-mail] if you want to try and get in touch.

[@drayjaycee9419]

Hi Jimmy, your reply is much-appreciated. I think the subject has to be broken down into defining what the 'divide' means, biblically. There are two ways you can look at this divide: 1) A hierarchy of roles and divine order between members, appointed by God (reflecting the hierarchy of roles seen within the Godhead) 2) A hierarchy of value and importance between members, which sees those of 'lesser' importance having no say, and no voice within the body. The first option is the biblical perspective of the divide, which we see between male and female, who are equally one in Christ but have a divinely appointed role, function, and hierarchical difference. Much like Jesus as The Son, Who is equal in Divinity to The Father but whose role is to submit to The Will of The Father. Likewise, The Holy Spirit does not speak or act on His own accord but rather speaking on behalf of The Son, whatever He sees and hears. The second is the unbiblical perspective, which is adopted, more than often unconsciously, by many or at least a majority of churches. Now, this isn't to say that there aren't biblical churches who operate in obedience to Corinthians 12, Romans 12 and the rest of scripture, but these are hard to come by. Elders who have young families where their credibility has not yet been tested are appointed to these positions. Pastors are appointed very young in their own faith and experience, which, again, does not keep in line with scriptures, that a person in ministry cannot be a novice (not at all meaning their age, but rather their spiritual maturity). These churches often fail to carry out true biblical discipline, and when eldership speak or act out of line with scripture they exert Lordship in their position to either directly or indirectly state that any 'lesser' persons of laity have no right to challenge. I believe, but I may be wrong, that Tom Siegel is referring to the latter.

[@drayjaycee9419]

It's always a pleasure to fellowship with fellow believers!! Just praying God directs me to more of them where I currently live...the one I was previously attending turned out to be pretty apostate. So many are turning that way in the UK. Need so much discernment. But hallelujah Jesus is coming back for His bride soon, and He's given us the Holy Spirit to comfort and help us endure the tough times ahead!

[@davidkorb3231]

These people are referring to denominations which isn’t the original churches

[@ziggysax0607]

How can there be more than one body "denomination"? Christ is the One and ONLY. If we look like anything other than Christ we are in danger of being heretical. We are not to have our own opinion. Membership comes with being a child of God. You gain "membership" when you become regenerated by the Spirit.

[@danrebolledo8385]

+B. Jed (BigRedFL) we make a distinction between the invisible universal church and the visible institutional church. So we actually have one body, made up of the redeemed, irrespective of denominational affiliation, reflected by what is visible

[@danrebolledo8385]

+Dan Rebolledo additionally there are ecclesiastical practices for the nt church that we pattern our practices after. Membership is one of those.

[@drayjaycee9419]

Okay, we do see that there is a sevenfold spirit with seven letters written to seven eternal churches...but essentially you are right, membership is this: " For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." We were all circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, buried with Him in baptism, given hearts of flesh, softened to His Word and will, united by truth, which is Christ, tied together in the bond of peace, which is Christ, in the harmony of love, which is Christ. So there is no faith without love, no love without peace, and none of those without truth. The truth in God's Word is that membership and God's body are all one, and one can only be put out of fellowship if being reproved, but that does not disqualify them from being members. It's just erroneous doctrine.

[@timoconnor1495]

What do you feel about women teachers in a evangelical church to younger women ,and at what stage can a women become an elder?

[@redmotherfive]

the church is believers, not a place. No one can tell someone else they are no longer a member of anything other than a religious social club.

[@ToshiroHoshi]

But we do see Jesus giving instructions to local churches (local bodies of believers) concerning church discipline in Matthew 18. In 1 Cor. 5:13, Paul says the local assembly should remove an unrepentant sinner from their midst, "But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."

[@johnmarkharris]

Convince Jesus, not KZbin watchers. (cf. Matthew 18:15-20; 1Corinthians 5:13). Honestly, what an unbelievably unbiblical statement.

[@chinojarjos]

ToshiroHoshi one of those instructions is to be one as He is one with the father. The problem is not a local body of believers but it is the division of the local body of believers. The kingdom can not be divided if it is then we may have lost our original focus, local groups of believers are not the problem it is what they have become into. Gatherings of believers should be the simplest most natural thing ever not these heretical machines we have create. We have all gone astray!

[@xxphillips]

ToshiroHoshi do not add or take away anything from the word local church? What was the name of the local Church Jesus built? (local church) Jesus only built one Church.

[@riverjao]

To date, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Calvinist preacher actually preach a line upon line, verse after verse, in context expository message one time. They all talk about it, I just haven’t seen one do it yet. Just b/c you preach on one verse one week and the next verse the following week that doesn't in any way entail an expository teaching.

[@GanttCarterservant]

Jordan Orick MacArthur?

[@danieloconnor4760]

Or RC Sproul? Or Alister Begg?

[@AnHebrewChild]

Piper spent 8 years going thru Romans line upon line precept upon precept "...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." ISA 28

[@loganross1861]

You say to mention that you go to church and get so much out of it...What if you don’t feel like you are getting much out of church, and there’s a lot of ambivalence there, but you still love Jesus and Love the Bible, but you don’t like talking about church because you have really mixed feelings about your local church and go out of a submisssion and love of Christ, and you serve in and pray for your church, but you honestly wouldn’t recommend your church to any but a slim demographic.... 😬 plz advise 🙏

[@WillDole]

Logan Ross 1) I think Keller was communicating that talking about church is a low risk way for some people to communicate that faith is an important aspect of their life. 2) I've struggled with your same question. My advice is to continue serving in and loving your church, and tell people about Jesus. As they come to embrace Him they are brought into His family (John 1:12), and will be given that same Spirit -driven love that will enable them to plug into and grow with a group of other sinners, aka the imperfect church.

[@gordonreed2736]

It should look like whoever wants to go there. Stop wringing your hands about racial diversity. Trying to be racially equal shows your racism. If you want change go work at an orphanage. We got lots of room for ya

[@elwingw4321]

A local church should not look like what these men preach. Preachers should not be salaried by tithing which is unbiblical for the new covenant. For expository preachers they seem to miss that New Testament teaching.john Calvin and Martin Luther did not teach tithing.so why do these men? They will never have the power of the Holy Spirit in their preaching as long as they love money more than the truth.

[@gk2222_]

Tithing is an Eternal principle throughout the Bible and should not be undermined-matt 23:23 nasb “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done WITHOUT NEGLECTING the others

[@elwingw4321]

@@gk2222_ tithing is not an eternal principle. You have been hoodwinked but the tithing extorters. Abraham tithed 10% to Melchizedek from spoils of war. Not personal wealth, and the Bible never mentions him tithing again. The 10% spoils of war was an Arab war custom and Melchizedek was the priest of that land area. Read “ should the church teach tithing l by Russel Earl Kelly so you will not be fleeced by the extorters. Jesus never tithed.neither did his disciples . Neither did the poor. Tithes was only food from landowners and herdsmen to Levites in the land of Israel. The Levites were not allowed to own property. Does you pastor own property? Is he a Levite? Is your tithe food? Does your church take tithes from the poor? Jesus had not been to Calvary yet so the law was still in effect with that scripture you quoted. . For the Levites. But now the new covenant is here. There is no law of tithing. The levitical system is abolished.

[@CounselPro]

Today's religiously-preoccupied Sophists: The 'Sons of Sceva' and 'contemporary 'Scribes and Pharisees' bore us here as always with the gossip of palace eunuchs. Why do these narcissists inflict themselves on the public...?

[@GanttCarterservant]

Philip Brewer huh?