God: Abounding in Love, Punishing the Guilty (Panel)

During The Gospel Coalition's 2011 national conference in Chicago, a panel considered matters of heaven and hell, including the arguments advanced by Rob Bell in his book 'Love Wins.'
In this video: Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, Tim Keller, Crawford Loritts, Stephen Um
Permalink: www.thegospelcoalition.org/res...

[@MerBlack]

Don Carson is one of my favorite teachers...so thankful for this panel

[@ClaritySinger]

Watching again, 5 years later. Relevant now more than ever.

[@tsheposekonya3108]

Caroline Seunghee Roberts It’s a blessing

[@johntobey1558]

Dr. Um, wow, just wow. GORDON-CONWELL IN THE 🏠. Drop the mic. Bring it back into Boston, Massachusetts. Meet the people on the street, bring them across the Charles River, and take them back to Church. Amen.

[@annbrucepineda8093]

It’s October 22, 2020 and I see how very important this discussion is. I loved what all the men said but what Crawford Loritts said made so much sense and is a new perspective, new to me. God does not need a PR guy. Also the Don is right that we are all no more than poor beggars begging for bread. Tim Keller’s comment can apply to all relationships. If we begin by ridiculing the person we hope to draw closer to Christ, we are bound to fail. “You told us what was right; you never told us what was wrong.” A principal once told us, in a parent/teacher conference, we could not tell a parent anything bad about their child before having told him/her at least three compliments. Kevin DeYoung explains what retired teachers like myself understand. We must empower our students, not pander to them or celebrate their immaturity. I could understand Stephen Um because I had watched “On Wings of Eagles”, a movie which inspired me to see a couple of documentaries about Eric Liddell (pronounced like “little”).

[@annettejones2332]

God knows the truth. God is loving and just. Love is caring and acting for people's eternal wellbeing.

[@skullrockets6381]

Q: Why would a loving God send someone to suffer in hell forever? A: Why would any INTELLIGENT PERSON reject a LOVING GOD, thus sending themselves to hell? GOD IS ETERNAL LOVE so the REJECTION of eternal love is OBVIOUSLY eternal suffering. It isn't complicated, know Jesus!

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

God is eternal and infijite so a hang nail would be equal to hell Jesus DIED in my place. The wages of sin is death. The gospel is Christ died and was raised to life. Eternal suffering is wrong. unbiblical.

[@RenewalCreations]

Saying that Jesus has other sheep that are not of this fold, and assume that he means other religions when he is talking about bringing the Gentiles in, would defeat his next or contextual statement of I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except thru me.

[@johntobey1558]

I studied with Rob Bell class of 1992, he has written a book that while designed to start an effective didactic that is irresponsibly open ended and he was trained better in our Philosphy courses and Bible classes.

[@vincentklug]

In other cultures, we have no problem with the justice of God... he would have more difficulty with the love of God, how can I loving God wipe away the wickedness... 20:55 Stephen Um

[@howieseverson4501]

None of them actually engaged the text in Rob Bell's book, aside from Keller saying Chapter 1 "hurt his feelings". Bell never explicitly endorses universalism, but he does pose tough questions about eternal punishment that seem to be at odds with BOTH God's loving and just nature, such as (1) does it make sense that Gandhi is suffering eternally in hell or (2) is a 16-year-old who is questioning his faith and tragically dies in a car wreck doomed to hell? And if the response is "God doesn't punish children", then what about if it's on his eighteenth birthday? Where's the cutoff point? Or (3) if someone accepts Jesus into their hearts and spends the rest of their life kicking back in front of their flat screen, content they're going to heaven, and doing nothing to fulfilling Jesus's kingdom here on earth, are they destined for eternal salvation while the agnostic who spends their life living for the poor condemned to damnation? And how does this jive with, say, the parable of the Good Samaritan? Bell asks a ton of questions like this in just the first few pages of his book-questions that trouble believers and mystify non-believers alike. And it's why Bell's book has sold so well-because these questions weigh on the minds of most of us, and instead of "wondering who the audience for this book is", as Keller states, as if Bell was supposed to write a book for him, perhaps he could start by tackling some of these specific questions with clarity. That would help to bring people over to his side. I respect these guys in one sense, but can't help but see them as modern-day Pharisees in another.

[@danrebolledo8385]

+Howard Severson There is only a tension between Gods perceived goodness and justice if we presuppose that certain individuals are not deserving of eternal punishment for their transgressions. The work of the cross is only meaningful to those whose realize they need a savior. The rejection of that free gift (God's goodness) displays our depravity and how deserving of hell we are, even if your name is Gandhi. None are justified by there own works. Romans 3:20-26, Galatians 2:16. If we believe that people are inherently good and not in need of justification before God then the cross is irrelevant, thats the confusion that Rob Bell creates in his teaching.

[@Angeldancer56]

And of course....what's God going to do with the millions and millions that lived and died before Jesus came and died and modern Christianity developed the sinner's prayer? The answers to all these questions are in the bible people just aren't looking for them.

[@marilynnstubbs4834]

I listened and heard direct quotes from Rob Bell’s book which were thoughtfully dealt with.

[@johntobey1558]

Love Wins= Universalism 2.0

[@JonPagba]

The following is from NT Wright's Surprised by Hope chapter 11. PURGATORY, PARADISE, HELL: My suggestion is that it is possible for human beings so to continue down this road, so to refuse all whisperings of good news, all glimmers of the true light, all promptings to turn and go the other way, all signposts to the love of God, that after death they become at last, by their own effective choice, beings that once were human but now are not, creatures that have ceased to bear the divine image at all. With the death of that body in which they inhabited God’s good world, in which the flickering flame of goodness had not been completely snuffed out, they pass simultaneously not only beyond hope but also beyond pity. There is no concentration camp in the beautiful countryside, no torture chamber in the palace of delight. Those creatures that still exist in an ex-human state, no longer reflecting their maker in any meaningful sense, can no longer excite in themselves or others the natural sympathy some feel even for the hardened criminal. ... But the most important thing to say at the end of this discussion, and of this section of the book, is that heaven and hell are not, so to speak, what the whole game is about. This is one of the central surprises in the Christian hope. The whole point of my argument so far is that the question of what happens to me after death is not the major, central, framing question that centuries of theological tradition have supposed. The New Testament, true to its Old Testament roots, regularly insists that the major, central, framing question is that of God’s purpose of rescue and re-creation for the whole world, the entire cosmos. The destiny of individual human beings must be understood within that context-not simply in the sense that we are only part of a much larger picture but also in the sense that part of the whole point of being saved in the present is so that we can play a vital role (Paul speaks of this role in the shocking terms of being “fellow workers with God”) within that larger picture and purpose. And that in turn makes us realize that the question of our own destiny, in terms of the alternatives of joy or woe, is probably the wrong way of looking at the whole question. The question ought to be, How will God’s new creation come? and then, How will we humans contribute to that renewal of creation and to the fresh projects that the creator God will launch in his new world? The choice before humans would then be framed differently: are you going to worship the creator God and discover thereby what it means to become fully and gloriously human, reflecting his powerful, healing, transformative love into the world? Or are you going to worship the world as it is, boosting your corruptible humanness by gaining power or pleasure from forces within the world but merely contributing thereby to your own dehumanization and the further corruption of the world itself?

[@onewaylife4all]

Pause at 32:52

[@CanadianOrth]

You don't need eternal conscious torment to avoid universalism or save the justice of God. Death is an eternal judgement.

[@lonniesatterfield1770]

Matt 25:46. Mark 9:44

[@scada67]

1) Capital Punishment Crimes: Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. 1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) 2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets 1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT) 2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons: Kill Brats From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB) God Kills the Curious And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV) Killed by a Lion Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT) Killing the Good Samaritan The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals. When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB) 3) Murdering Children Kill Sons of Sinners Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) God Will Kill Children The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT) Kill Men, Women, and Children "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all - old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT) God Kills all the First Born of Egypt And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT) Kill Old Men and Young Women "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26) (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.) God Will Kill the Children of Sinners If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT) More Rape and Baby Killing Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

[@christaylor920]

Question: What is the reason for posting the texts above? One comment about the texts that you have here: They do seem to support the concept that God takes sin very seriously.

[@scada67]

i rather believe in the spaghetti flying monster. he doesnt punish but reward us with extra meat balls if we are good!

[@christaylor920]

I don´t think I´ve ever heard it put that way.

[@bathbomber]

Moshe W. O em GEE! I never knew the Bible says that!!!!1one!!! I'm going to become an atheist now!!!one!!11two!! /sarcasm Do you honestly believe that your comment is going to cause anyone to actually say that? Yes the Bible say those things, but you need to read them with the big picture in mind. I'll read your comment the way you are reading the Bible: "i believe... spaghetti flying monster... punish... us... if we are good!" It's completely not what you meant, even though you said every one of those words. A lot of the passages, especially the Leviticus and Deuteronomy passages, are supposed to be read in light of the fact that a) they weren't obeyed, and b) the punishments were never carried out. The people deserved a lot more punishment than they got. God graciously held back his wrath, until Jesus should come to bear that wrath on himself, and by God's grace, he still holds back his wrath from us today so that we might have a chance to repent.

[@johntobey1558]

Atonement as a scaled system, or gradation amd hierarchy. Poor mixed metaphor from econometrics. It is cosmic, not reductionist analytics.

[@jpielemeierpianist]

"The Great Divorce" by CS LEWIS advocates hopeful universalism in portions. This book is mentioned by as an influence by Rob Bell in "Love Wins." I know because I've read both books. Also, CS LEWIS' biggest influence George MacDonald was a committed universalist. The only reason I see why they organise a panel like this to focus on Rob Bell and not, say, MacDonald or Lewis or Origen or any other number of universalists in Christian history is because Bell is young and articulate and influencing people away from the Calvinism of these leaders.

[@tedzeiter833]

Wow! Rob Bell simply makes Jesus a feel good god. So sad.

[@idneilkell]

They address CS Lewis right away. Did you watch at all?

[@believervsbeliefs6599]

"Sin against an infinite God is infinite sin"; and, therefore, deserves infinite punishment? You could just as easily, and with the same rational, say that because God is spirit, only spiritual sin is actual sin. (I think they call that Gnosticism.) I wonder if you Mainstream Christians even understand sin. Do you think that when someone hits an old lady in the head and steals her purse, the first thing God thinks about is, "hey, that guy just sinned against ME"? Think again.

[@alexisbanegas6107]

+Believer VS Beliefs all sin is spiritual - even hitting an old lady and stealing her purse lol. Why do you think that old lady was hit and robbed? Give me every possible answer to that question and you'll see that the reason is/was spiritual. Every sin, no matter how grievous its effects towards other human beings, is still first and foremost a sin against God. We see this in Psalm 51 when David says, "Against You and You only have I sinned," speaking to God when he'd obviously sinned against other human beings - adultery, murder, etc. Furthermore, He created humans and they're made in His image - of course God is going to take sin against them personally. The reason we sin in a horizontal level is only ever because we've already sinned on a vertical level. This is clear throughout Scripture - we sin because we are not first truly satisfied in God and all that He is for us. This is the root of all pride, doubt, and idolatry, which in turn literally lead to every other sin. How would you define sin?

[@believervsbeliefs6599]

+Alexis Banegas As someone who does not believe anything material is "real", I understand your emphasis on the Spiritual aspect of sin; but, are you saying God doesn't care about the woman? He only cares about how the act affects His cred? That's what I disagree with. I believe the suffering of the woman is the crime--against her and God. The sin is how that crime alienates the criminal, and possibly the victim, from God. But, in a theology where God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike, God loves criminal and victim the same; and, since, God has done all He can do to reunite us with Himself, the only thing left is the suffering of the woman, and that's what He cares about. I've often wondered, considering Christian doctrines related to "salvation", what do Christians consider to be a "sin against God"? After all, you have confessed to murdering Him for your own benefit. Is there anything more alienating than that?

[@lexban]

+Believer VS Beliefs Your assumption of me is wrong lol. I do believe everything material is real, but I also believe that just as there's a physically objective universe, there is also a spiritually objective universe. I'm afraid you misunderstand me. I'm saying all sin is spiritual, whether it is material or not, as well. No, I'm not saying that. I believe God cares deeply about the woman...I said that in my first comment - He created her and made her for a reason - He loves her. I'm not saying He "only" cares about that, but you have to understand that all human joy, in its fullest and longest sense, is linked inextricably to knowing God as He is - anything that obscures a true knowledge of God inhibits true, lasting joy...for all people. I'm just saying no sin is a victimless crime, even if done in private. All sin robs God of glory and mankind of joy. Yes, I agree it's a crime against both...but God is the only truly innocent party in the equation. Ever. Yes, He loves criminal and victim alike...but all human beings are equally alike all under sin - everyone is guilty of sin. Period. More specifically, we have all enjoyed and preferred things over God...and being infinitely worthy of our affection and enjoyment, this is treason of the highest order. It's because we enjoy other things over and above God that we sin against each other, robbing each other of joy in God and God of the glory He deserves. No, the only thing left is not the suffering of the woman, but also the defamation of God's name. Hurting someone else belittles He who created them. It depicts numerous lies - his/her life isn't sacred, they have no intrinsic dignity, God's commands aren't worthy of being obeyed, God is not supremely valuable - what I've hurt someone else to get really is instead, etc. That doesn't mean He cares less about the woman's suffering, it's just that there's more to it than that. God is equally passionate about the good of His people and the glory of His Name. The gospel is that, in Christ, He's committed to and achieves both. I would recommend reading Jonathan Edwards, C.S. Lewis, or John Piper. If you'd prefer, you can start with The Weight of Glory by Lewis, or The Dangerous Duty of Delight/Desiring God by Piper. Are you not a Christian, then? Every sin, period, is a sin against God, because it all demonstrates/depicts that something other than Him is more valuable and that is entirely false - nothing is more valuable than He is. The Christian life revolves around knowing and treasuring God above all things, and this translates to 1) obeying His commands, 2) finding our joy in the joy of others and thus doing good to them, 3) believing Scripture in its entirety, etc. All sin alienates us from God and, according to Scripture, the righteous and just punishment for sin, all sin, is being forever alienated from God. This is what Hell is - being shut out from the enjoyment of God's presence. This is why Christ came, to live the life that we couldn't live and to die the death we should've died - taking the punishment we deserve upon Himself so that we can be restored to fellowship with God forever. That's the gospel.

[@lexban]

+Believer VS Beliefs Lol sorry, I didn't realize I was logged into my other account when I responded...but this is Alexis Banegas haha.

[@believervsbeliefs6599]

+lexban I like your description of sin: That it is putting something else ahead of God. It's a simple and useful image--better than the idea of being separated. We were separated before, but re-united through the crucifixion. Since sin continues, the crucifixion would have been only a temporary respite if we are again separated because of it. The problem comes when people try to define "putting ahead" for others. If you pass by a bowl of candy and pop one in your mouth without offering a prayer first, some would say you put that candy ahead of God. The next thing you know, you've got a "popping doctrine" which declares candy popping without first giving thanks to be an anathema. Most of the "commandments" are just God's instructions on the best way to get along in society. They are for this world, not eternity. Jesus' teachings showed us the wider more spiritual and eternal understandings of those teachings; and, reminded us of the two which contained the essence of them all (Mark 12:29-31). However, if you ask Christians today, "What are the essential doctrines of Christianity?", you will seldom here the word "love" in their response. Whether someone is a "Christian" or not is a good question. Since "Christ" was not Jesus' last name, the implication is that He WAS the Christ. But, there is no evidence of a Christ in the world, so it is rather irrational to say you follow one. When the Christ comes, I will be a Christian--whether it is Jesus or not. For now, I am a disciple of Yeshua/Jesus, and a worshipper of the One God.

[@sungrae1004]

angry bird zz

[@denverado5594]

The “moderator” doesn’t know what a moderator is supposed to do: facilitate conversation. He hogs most of the time. He spends more time talking than the rest of the panel put together.

[@nathanpayne5269]

He punished the whole human race because Adam eat the apple or got a piece of tail however you want to say it

[@jamesmccluskey7551]

If God loses the majority of mankind than either, 1. He is not all powerful. Or 2. He is not all loving. If Kenneth Hagin had seen hell like he proclaimed surely he'd have been an evangalist to save souls rather than the grandaddy of the prosperity gospel. Meaning; If I created a hell, a place where I was to destroy my enemies, then went off continuing my mission of loving and forgiving my enemies, at very least I would have to accept that I have some serious mental issues. Anyway, either God truly loves and forgives his enemies or he is undoubtedly the biggest hypocrite in the universe. 1. Revelation 1:18. 2. John 3:16-17. 3 1Timothy 4:10. 4. 1Corithians 15 known as the resurrection chapter. There is no hell 2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 1. The cross disproves hell. 2. Scripture does not say God is a torture. 3. Paul wrote 12 books of the Bible and never warned of hell. 4. The old testament never says spirits are punished in hell after death. 5. James, John, Peter, and Hebrews never say spirits are punished in hell after death. 6. Jesus never says spirits are punished in hell after death. 7. There is no such thing as separation from God. Paul never preached hell exept to declare victory over it ha. 1Corinthians 15:55-56 Lord of Lords, 1Ti 6:16 Who ONLY hath immortality, only God has an immortal soul. Not man. When ppl say we have a souls is wrong. Scripture state that we BECAME a living soul. Gen 2:7. I think ppl say we have a immortal soul in just a desperate attempt to uphold (eternal torment.) Do you know of anyone that wants to go to hell? What would you think of such a person? So then, why did the God-fearing man Job want to go to hell? There is no place in the bible that says if you die in your sins your spirit or soul will be punished in hell.

[@elconcarnefridge6289]

read revelation 20:11-15

[@elconcarnefridge6289]

also acts 17:30-31 paul speaks here about judgment, judgement does not come without punishment