Goth Philosophy Explained

When it comes to goth, the filter that determines what we find beautiful impacts our lifestyle of consumption, semiotic expression, music preferences, cultural norms/ideals, identity, and even ontology. The key area of the debate among goths, is what specifically constitutes that filter. My model of philosophical aesthetic or perhaps "pleasure aesthetics", largely relies on a phenomenological framework, and is constituted via 3 core pillars. Those 3 simply defined would be:
Uncanny: Making strange social conventions, art, etc. through morbidity, artifice, melancholy and sometimes parody. The discomforting or unnerving feeling as if someone has just walked over your grave.
Poeticism (the romantic): The emphasis on emotional experiences, largely derived from the fantastic, the mysterious, the Gothic, and the saccharine.
Otherness: The state of being different from and alien to mainstream cultural norms. Broadly through sartorial idioms, but this can include any other individual expressions of otherness through gender, sexuality etc. This is constructed within the context of a broader cultural discourse and as such is not static. This is largely where the "discordant bricolage" or the refusal to be nailed down and classified originates from in the goth ethos.
Previous Videos in the "What is Goth" series
Subculture Explained: • What is Subculture | W...
The Homology Hypothesis: • The Value of Music to ...
80's Goth Homology: • 80's Goth Wasn't Just ...
Video on the philosophy of aesthetics: • What is ~A E S T H E T...
Is Goth Just a Phase Research Project: isgothjustaphase.com/
Phenomenology:
• How Does Deadpool Know...
Check out Cemetery Confessions on The Belfry Network: thebelfry.rip

[@hayshaker6017]

“Death smiles at us all; all we can do is smile back.” ― Marcus Aurelius

[@ladystirlingknight2406]

I need to listen to this again because I had more thoughts than I can remember, but here’s what I do remember. I think that the simple use of “finding beauty in darkness” works well for describing goth to those who are otherwise uninterested (i.e. parents, grandparents, other family members, friends, passers by, etc.). I also appreciate that you expressed in a firm way that as a person one should be more complex than just being goth, and so they should feel no need to make everything they like fit into the goth cultural atmosphere or vice verse, making goth warp to fit the things they like. That is likely the largest misconception among people who are new to the culture so I’m really glad you addressed it here.

[@MoriDarkmoss]

Lady Stirling Knight Very well said. I couldn't agree more.

[@xopicsky8021]

So well said. While I love goth fashion itself, I do enjoy the beauty of darkness. It feels nostalgic, it feels close to home. Way I look at goth is they are normal people with their own life as an individual. Goth to me is a personal experience and for me it's physical and spiritual experience. I'm learning more about the subculture and the most that learn through these subculture is that each one of us are different and we Branch out through many different things. Part of that has do with the fact that majority of them are loner. They aren't loners because they want to be away from people but because they are learning about themselves. I hope I make sense because when I text , it kind of look mix up. Lol But I do admire their confidence in being who they are and changing for the people who condemn or used typical stereotypes against them. It's refreshing.

[@wilhelmmeister3831]

I have a bit of a problem defining Goth as being in opposition to the wider culture. Goth is not like, say, Anarcho-Punk or hippie subcultures, who really DO see themselves as being at war with the mainstream culture. Even back when I was more formally a Goth, I worked hard, advanced in my career, paid my taxes, obeyed the law (apart from three or four speeding tickets), paid my rent (and later on my mortgage), stood for the national anthem at ball games, was well, if interestingly groomed and dressed, and hygienic, was and still am, polite as heck, etc etc., in short, a 'model citizen', just an eccentric-looking one. Almost all of the Goths I knew then, and the few I still remain in touch with, were pretty much the same. There is no inconsistency whatsoever in being a Goth and happily accepting the required duties of living and making one's way in the world of "normies". You can't say that about your died-in-the-wool Anarcho-Punks, Hippies, Rivetheads or Skinheads. They are fixed in a position of permanent hostility towards all of these things, at least rhetorically, if not in reality. I think that's what might mark the distinction between a SUBculture like Goth, and a COUNTERculture, like the other groups I mentioned.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

I totally agree with this. I would argue there are a few ideological departures from the mainstream, but goths largely exist within a capitalist western society and fit in just fine to a large degree. I never meant to imply there was a direct non-conformism in regards to the broader culture, I don't hold that view.

[@louisvalentino43]

Yes all of the above I agree with. We are not a Counter culture, but a Sub culture, and are not at war with the systems, or people of the world.

[@CassandraPantaristi]

I do consider goth a subculture in terms of expression, but a bit counterculture to other groups such as the SJWs who advocate for authoritarianism. So for goth to be about self-expression, that should imply that it is about freedom as opposed to authoritarianism. But I'd agree that we are not at war with them, but the SJWs would come after us simply because we are not in their SJW "conformist" bubble. There is no ideology in the goth subculture, which is why I'd consider it counterculture to at least the SJWs. Other than that, it really isn't a counterculture. I want to be a functional member of society, even though I am anti-social.

[@CassandraPantaristi]

@Electric Sheep Yes, I understand that we're allowed. Watch Jinks. He's a goth KZbinr and explains why goth and punk are counterculture to SJW ideology (or any form of authoritarianism). It's not a persecution complex, it's understanding that subcultures are ways to express ourselves. Authoritarianism is against self-expression. I'm saying that no, I don't feel persecuted. I'm saying that the things SJWs say that are ridiculous, and it makes sense why one can't be both an SJW and be a goth or punk. Sure, they're not "coming after" us. Though I would say that punk is more antithetical to SJW ideology than goth is. Jinks's video of his analysis on if goth was SJW oriented: kzbin.info/www/bejne/foXbhpx-pcelh7c

[@lilithrey3936]

This was very enlightening. This video really helped me become more comfortable with the culture. I’ve been comfortable with it but I just needed a good academic, lecture-like (I don’t know if that’s the right wording, sorry) approach to it to sink into it better. All I hear is that it’s just about the music and fashion but I knew it was deeper than that. I knew it had other factors to it but I needed abit of an outline of it and you provided that and then some more. Thank you.🖤 Ps you’re super handsome and I love your voice, very calming. Keep up the good work!

[@louisvalentino43]

Goth is an extreme state of mind and outer body feeling that enthralled me for years, and so I became what I love ed most. It is an ethereal and beautifully dark experience everyday and supernatural delight at 🌃. I love being this that what I have undyingly been for 16 years now.

[@pythosdegothos6181]

What are your thoughts on androgyny in the goth scene. It was honestly one of the aspects along with the music and overall looks that pulled me in, but it seems to be dying out. I seem to be the only guy at goth events decked out like Siousxie :P (my androgyny is extreme though). But really any idea what has happened to that and if you could cover it in a vid. I for one love androgyny and my GF also loves it, and feels under represented when it comes to eye candy. :D

[@louisvalentino43]

Itz one that I abbrasively take on and take to my add on.

[@louisvalentino43]

Androgyny is amazing!

[@pythosdegothos6181]

@Electric Sheep I wonder if social pressures lead to this.

[@pythosdegothos6181]

@Electric Sheep Yea....that divide in many areas needs to be tossed on the pyres of history.

[@myfragilelilac]

Androgyny is beautiful... anything that is different I find attractive..... In the art world people are more open. In the mainstream not so mych.... to me the alternative world should be inclusive of all genders. Races. Sexual orientation etc. Anyone who feels like a misfit and like the music aesthetic.

[@wetsocks7619]

had to make a presentation on goths, ended up taking a philosophy class

[@annaarnaboldi4467]

This video has been extremely useful! I'm what people would probably call a "babybat" and I love to discover more on the subculture whenever I can. I also am interested in philosophy and this video cleared up many things for me and offers me an occasion to think about a lot of things. I wish more people would see this video.

[@ladystirlingknight2406]

Alright! After essentially writing a transcript and googling a bunch of this gorgeously academic terminology, I have my thoughts together! I found the differentiation between goth philosophy and the philosophy of goth quite interesting. I agree that overlap is inevitable between these two creatures because they’re both living breathing parts of the culture. Also, I don’t remember if I said this earlier in watching some of your other videos, but I agree with your homology hypothesis. No single thing makes a person goth; no single thing makes a loaf of bread or a good soup. There’s multiple components that must be present. As for the main topic of this video, I find that I agree. The qualities of uncanniness, poeticism, and otherness make an excellent filter to sift out what is goth and what is not. I actually find this really helpful since I’ve only been truly immersed in the scene for a couple years now and when someone is starting out fresh it’s very hard to even find a set of guidelines. Especially with having started my search in the midst of all this spineless bullshit about not wanting to offend anyone spiraling out of control. These more solid guidelines provide stability, not constraint. As always, thank you so much for your wonderful work!

[@Lycurgus1982]

While I have found no connection to gothic cultural, there is most definitely a philosophy that surrounds it, however open ended it might be. While the aesthetics are quite pleasing, I've discovered that the acceptance of the darker sides of nature to be the crux of what goth is. At least that is what I've come to believe. I appreciate your thoughts on this matter.🦇

[@louisvalentino43]

I am officially enthralled from this live Stream dude, I loved it!

[@ostwestfalischehochmoorlei4705]

Sitting all in black in a lether jacket, and talking about philosophy is very goth. An important part of goth philosohy I would say.

[@necromancy6142]

I would hate to think of goth in a systemic way. Or as a model. It's still an avenue of fantasy, escapism and expression of the arts that encompass music based on the history. A personal philosophy is an opening for such things as 'I'm just expressing myself' arena, however kay sera sera. I have to say apart from the music which is my passion (as opposed to the literature et al), the esoteric paths such as tarot and spiritual paths are far more instinctual in relation to the 'the green widow' philosophy. Thanks for making this video.

[@Gnosticman00]

I think he's explicating a structure that he sees in order to precisely define a phenomenon that is so overt that most would say it exists. Systemic explanations don't necessarily preculde the possibility (or imminent conclusion) that the phenomenon is organic. Almost all social structures form in organic ways. I think coming to understand a phenmenon more precisely probably requires a systemic structure of some sort.

[@ghastlycrumb_tiny]

I just realized that this video was published on my birthday! Thank you dear!

[@violetchristophe]

The KZbin suggested this to me, despite it being years old. I wondered what your academic experience has been like, in regard to philosophy and the various topics you take interest in. I feel like I may be similar to you, in that you've read and listened to media which delves into such topics, but haven't had the privilege of taking courses on the matter. As you said, some of the ideas and your understanding are incomplete and are hard to do justice to. I appreciate your process of sorting it out the best you can, and often feel the same way. It is all a process after all, like life in general, in its impermanent and ever changing nature.

[@Skiamakhos]

I think this works well, though I'm curious as to why you exclude the Romantic philosophy in particular - I've argued previously in comments that the literary and artistic movement that is associated with Romanticism (which began in the late 18th century with the publication of Wordsworth & Coleridge's "Lyrical Ballads") was such an influence on what came after (gothic literature, art, poetry etc, and thence horror movies based on them, and then fashions & music based in large part on the gothic horror movies based on them in turn) that it could be seen as the true root of what's identifiable as Goth. You can actually see Coleridge's influence in Mary Shelley's writing - she quotes him a number of times in "Frankenstein". Apart from that omission, yes, it does most definitely boil down to these few essentials, philosophically.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

I actually completely agree with you! My hesitation there was due to my understanding of Romanticism as a reaction to the Enlightenment, and as such having a focus on emotion over reason, experience of nature over science, and the supernatural as an element of our experience with nature and humanity. This may be ignorance on my part however, if Romanticism doesn't make truth claims as to the necessity or existence of the supernatural, but rather emphasizes the exploration of the *possibility* of the supernatural I'd be OK with it. My hesitation is because in my view, goth makes no assertions in regards to spirituality and as such many goths are naturalists and atheists, yet still hold to the poetic, emotional, and romantic beauty as ideals. Personally as an atheist, I find the implied dichotomy between emotion and reason to be a false one, as my study of the natural sciences enhances my sense of wonder in nature and music and experience with other humans. Certainly I don't preclude other perspectives from goth itself as I'm trying to be objective and not diminish other worldviews, however I have always felt goth itself allows for all theistic/non-theistic belief systems; so I would be hesitant to endorse any philosophical framework that seeks to make truth claims in those arenas. Though if my understanding of Romanticism as in part, an assertion of the existence of the supernatural is incorrect then I do feel it would be suitable.

[@grimsong2237]

I am in agreement with Skimakhos in regards to being in favor of the use of the word Romanticism. The Romantics as a whole were not anti: science, reason, and logic. In fact the majority of them enthusiastically advocated for those things. Their rejection of the Enlightenment was focused on the destructive elements of rising industrial level technology on human life and nature. Workers slaving away in smoke stacked factories as they became ill, injured, or dead from job related injuries. The surrounding environment being covered in smog and toxic water. The Romantics wanted ethics and harmony with technology ( Think "Star Trek: The Next Generation"). On another note I think your use of Phenomenology requires a bit more refinements since its approach doesn't really account for the massive ideological deviations within that school of thought. I mean even its founders Hursel and Heidegger were at each others throats on what it meant. I think Phenomenology's biggest boon in this discussion is its ability to be in synch with the first step of the scientific method "Observation of phenomena" and thus aide us in coming closer in observing things as they are. Like the very real process of evolution that occurs in all cultures. Other then that these definitions have real potential.

[@grimsong2237]

Per the ladies request, Seeing Through Ghost kzbin.info/www/bejne/d4Okinlomahje68 =) In addition here is a brief video with some interesting insights into Romanticism by ExtraCredits for anyone who is curious kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJWcc5SXl56LqcU

[@CemeteryConfessions]

Actually I'm pretty sure she was referring to this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqO4h42BmbRgbcU :)

[@grimsong2237]

@The Count LOL As soon as I saw it, I was like "Of course!" Forgive me, my mind is on movies since I have been "Flipping the premise" on films as a writing exercise for the last week. Thank you for correcting me. =D

[@Amenhetep]

And thank you for your videos. Always very well done and thought provoking.

[@christie_exist]

I really like philosophy, so this video is really nice.

[@lessonstolivefor]

“Finding beauty in darkness” holy shiiit I’m a goth and didn’t know it.

[@CrypticJasmine]

A KZbin wormhole brought me here and I think this is very interesting, for one it’s only the second time in my life I’ve heard the word phenomenology used. 2. I think it’s interesting how many different perspectives there are about this even among goths (who listen to goth music just to be clear). Recently I watched a video where the hosts were saying “being goth is as simple as listening to the music, that’s it” then went on to make fun of the idea that there is a goth mindset, and THEN turned around and said that goth is not apolitical 😂. I don’t say this to make fun of them but more so just to highlight that there IS more to goth than just the sound of the genre(s)- even in the evidence that most people would agree goth is not apolitical, and I appreciate this deep dive into what that mindset and philosophy might be. I also appreciate the work that goes into these videos. 🖤🦇💖🙏🏼

[@rickonnye2001]

Brilliant 😀😀😀

[@Laynasmuse]

🖤

[@Amenhetep]

Focus focus focus.....lol Also that leather looks so naked.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

ya, it was a recent thrift store find and I haven't had the time to DIY it yet.

[@pcaetano7527]

yes, more focus planning and this would be even better, and not as long.

[@BlackVelvetBeauty]

Yassssss!!!!!

[@louisvalentino43]

Goth is in every way and form, a lifestyle,bye the way...nice Bauhaus T!

[@lilqzscribbleshow1560]

i cant help but notice yur Bauhaus refrence, don't forget peter murphy drew heavy from antione Artaud the French poet symbolist and surreal. if you realise now goth is emo and emo is turning towards emo rap it remains to be seen if the subculture can keep solvent to its origins being an off shoot from the punk. goth philosophy is more problematic now because its homology is morphious like a Poe fog.....you have vapour wave goth you have anime goth you have baby goth.....emo goth cosplay goth and on and on..... recently desert goth ie Gary nueman fashion on his new album. Quirkiness Strangeness and Charm. Listen to Ultimate Spinach....the early proto goth band. great presentation!

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

Emo is not goth. Just stop with that shit.

[@afthoniachavvah6466]

When did you learn to speak so well?

[@CemeteryConfessions]

I've been studying sociology on my own time for around 5-6 years, however when I started the Cemetery Confessions podcast 4 years ago, and especially in the last 3, I began diving into academic literature from many different fields, and an understanding of the jargon comes along with that.

[@wildharma936]

You could be marylin manson sozi. Call him. Tell him you will remplace his life.

[@wilhelmmeister3831]

Fashionable pseudo-academic jargoning obscures and obfuscates. A mastery of English prose illuminates and enlightens. Less of the first and more of the second, please. Plus, all this hoo-ha is an attempt to turn a fun and interesting pop cultural expression into something portentous and profound. BIG mistake. If you drain the fun out of Goth, you will kill it. If you weight it with profundities it cannot bear, you will break it's back.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

I understand academic study is not for everyone and that's fine by me. For myself and many people I know, this type of analysis, applied either to goth or any other identity/belief, is both enlightening and terribly fun. I understand philosophical pursuits will turn some people off, which is why I leave this type of discussion to my KZbin channel and keep the podcast more accessible. That said, I don't feel the pursuit of epistemic analysis of the self, our ingroups, and the beliefs that correlate to our behaviors is in any way psuedo-academic obfuscation. My interest is the pursuit of truth, that which comports to reality, and analysis of self in a journey to self actualization. Certainly it is not everyone's path, however that makes it no less useful a tool.

[@wilhelmmeister3831]

Cemetery Confessions I apologize if that sounded like a criticism of you. I received my degrees in English and history in the mid 80s, long before the deconstructionist and cultural Marxist jargon had really infected too much of the humanities and social sciences, so it strikes my ears as a barbarous and discordant lingo. But I can see that if that's how one was taught, one can't be blamed for using it. I guess it's a generational difference at work here.

[@kaylakarrion9885]

Cemetery Confessions Funny to see this white boy battle in the comments for who's the smartest guy in the room. It is SO commonplace.

[@wilhelmmeister3831]

Marianne Bragg I'm very happy to yield that honor to The Count.

[@kaylakarrion9885]

Wilhelm Meister These Goths talk about love of the dark and macabre? Try working 30 years with people in palliative care, shitting themselves as they die with no money just a long drawn out end as a bag of bones with the skin a festering onslaught of bed sores. Not intellectual I guess but is it dark enough?