Graham Palmer: "Energy Storage and Civilization: A History” | The Great Simplification #87

[@Boudica234]

I'm really impressed by how well prepared Nate is for these interviews. His questions clearly reflect that he not only understands the critical issues but has done his homework on the subject matter of his guests. Nate's work is so topical and relevant. He always cuts through the bullshit and gets to the heart of the matter. It's nice to see that the great Art Berman now regularly tweets Nate's posts. Thank u for your outstanding work Nate.

[@aegisfate117]

He's a brilliant interviewer

[@Orielzolrak]

Hello. A few days ago I saw a documentary about the energy problems in Germany. There was a piece of information that impressed me, the director of a company that made copper cables for wind turbines and circuits said that a 1-millisecond cut in the flow of electricity (imperceptible to the common user) would stop the process, decalibrate the system and it took 3 days to recover production.

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

Can you please tell me the name of the documentary.. thanks

[@Orielzolrak]

@@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220 Alemania sin electricidad: ¿pesadilla o peligro real? | DW Documental maybe you get in english, but you can put subtitles

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

@@Orielzolrak thanks.. 👍

[@suewarman9287]

Beautiful answer to the last question - what a *lovely* man! Let's hope there are many, many more like him working quietly in the background for a better fufutre...

[@jamesunderhill993]

Nate is doing a superb job in building a well-informed community and I'm all on board. My frustration is that all of this critically important thinking could be seen as the chatter of just another internet echo chamber, when it certainly is not. To address this, I wonder whether Nate would consider having a discussion with someone who proposes a contrary line of thinking such as Bjorn Lomberg or Marian Tupy (who proposes that climate activism is a religion), or even Jordan Peterson. There are genuine echo chambers out there where people are on the receiving end of ideas formed with selective evidence and misrepresented data. I think Nate it the guy to take them on in a calm, non-confrontational and effective way.

[@aegisfate117]

Maybe Nate should go on Slow Rogan 🤮

[@realeyesrealizereallies6828]

I built my own solar system, the storage capacity is 30 kilowatts, and I use about 2--6 kilowatts a day, living a very simple efficient life in the forest/farm..Batteries are LIFEP04, and I have 4500 watts of panels and the system cost $6,500--7,000(self built) and LIFEPO4 doesn't contain the metals mined by children in Africa and they don't catch on fire..Batteries are good for 6 thousand cycles to 80%, which will last me 20 years..I have a water well, wood burner, mini split that runs directly from solar, huge garden, etc., and I would advise people to do likewise, my systems work no matter what is going on in the outside world..I don't waste energy, and am not missing anything, in fact I'm far happier than when I was wasting energy in typical western world(American) fashion..We are not escaping the consequences of our collective behavior..And the existential threats are closing in all around us..Anyone who thinks that this will end well is delusional..All of this is coming to a head..And there is no stopping that...

[@Rosemountainfarm]

Agreed. Me too. I live happily with 4 solar panels of 300 watts each, 24 v Sunfrost refrigerator. Backup wind for gray Winters. Wood heat and self made methane for gas stove and water heater in summer. Winter water heat is from wood.

[@realeyesrealizereallies6828]

@@Rosemountainfarm Nice..I built my batteries out of both 280AH and 304Ah EVE cells, with the world famous JK BMS's..I have two big compressor fridges, one is a fridge, one is a freezer, and they don't even run from the main system..Have alot of back up redundancy systems like rain catchment, a nice stream on the property, a fresh water spring, water filtration, diesel heaters, nut trees, two home made solar generators(for fridges), compost..All of that including the property, building my house and the gadgets cost about half of what a middle income earner makes in a year..And now my only bills are internet and car insurance..But, I use my homemade electric bike/motorcycle, it's a gray area, and probably not legal, most of the year, powered from sunlight..Just listing the realities so people understand that anyone could live that sort of life..I built several tiny houses on my forest property that I rent out on AIRBNB for income..They are just bedrooms in the forest with lots of windows I found on craigslist and facebook marketplace..The wood all came from Amish saw mills dirt cheap..The hardest part was finding properties that are cheap, without the zoning issues, in a place tourism works...My plan is to move my grown kids and like minded people onto the property to create a community when things take a turn for the worst..

[@Rosemountainfarm]

@realeyesrealizereallies6828 This sounds like an echo of my place on the crust. Keep at it, hopefully ppl will open their eyes and follow soon !

[@doctorcrafts]

The outside world won’t affect you? You’re commenting on KZbin You’re not insulated with your little goofy homestead

[@craigbrowne5806]

Outstanding interview. Very thought provoking.

[@Orielzolrak]

I believe that energy and production cannot be thought of at country level because we are in a globalized system. Unless there is a self-sufficient country or region, which there is not. Indonesia has 60% of palm production in the world. Ivory Coast has more than 40% cocoa production. Chile has 26% of copper production. Well, someone could say that society can go on without having cocoa or palm oil. Yes, it can, but we must take into account how much industry, commerce and the financial sector would be affected, we would find ourselves with chains of dominoes falling. Almost all companies in the world have raw materials that come from elsewhere, if I take it to a human being we could say that a person could live without a leg, but only if the society to which they belong is willing to help them. I think this topic is so huge that it's very hard to see what direction events will take and the events that this event produces. All the best

[@wvhaugen]

In his 1988 book, The Collapse of Complex Societies, Joseph Tainter postulated two theories of how complex societies arose: 1) conflict theory and 2) integration theory. In conflict theory, elite members of society increase complexity for their own benefit. [Every culture is complex so it is proper to say "increase" complexity rather than "introduce" complexity.] In integration theory, bureaucracies arise because they benefit society. An example of conflict theory is Marxism. An example of integration theory is elites introducing a bureaucracy to manage irrigation systems for the overall benefit of society. Tainter admits there is some validity to conflict theory but comes down on the side of integration theory. In a quantitative sense, integration theory is >50% and conflict theory is

[@iancormie9916]

The rich and powerful are capable of taking care of their own and invariably do. One must also realize that the elites, the well connected and the sociopaths of our society will corrupt any society, in any way they can, to their advantage.

[@cameronveale7768]

James Scott's book on Grain is quite a good read. My copy is often borrowed as others try to understand what happened and what is happening. (Old saying can't know where you are going until you know where you came from comes to mind). Each region and country will likely approach the transition attempt differently and end up in quite different position from where they started. Your Frankly episode on loss aversion is predictive of difficult times ahead as we in the global north don't want to give up what we have and those in the global south want just a small piece of it all in a time of diminishing energy with increasing demand. great interview. cheers

[@peteraddison4371]

... a very great, & highly huge biguest reverential kudos to those Largely Lived & Longer Lasting, very ancient & so called in-digenious cultures that realised their "placement" withon a lovingly livingly cosmicly sentiantly Consciously constructured plan-it Cook came into Botany Bay & saw a sea of ships masts, BILLIONS OF MILENI-ALLY AGED TREES, & was awed & frankly flabagasted to be in the sight of such a site, only a couple of hundred years ago. ALL OF THEM ARE GONE NOW, & LIKEWISE, SO TOO, WILL BE, THE FATE OF THE AMAZE-ON ...

[@evilryutaropro]

I read Against the Grain this summer. Phenomenal book. Highly recommend more people to check it out. Not the first time I’ve seen someone on the channel recommend it. Everyone who read the comment above should read the book haha

[@Popopopopopopipopipipip]

Great interview Nate

[@ppetal1]

This is much more than analogy. It strikes me as a new revolutionary perspective. Energy as capital in history.

[@generic_youtube_comment]

To have two books titled "Against the Grain", by two different authors dealing with the effects of agriculture on human civilization, is uncanny. I refer also to an earlier book by Richard Manning. Just to add the bathtub analogy for understanding stored energy is well used, an analogy that has also been used to describe our credit creation/destruction form of money.

[@TheNordicMan]

Great discussion but, with him being an expert, it would have been interesting hearing his thoughts on different electrofuels. Maybe next time!

[@AnniesEggs]

Coal couldn't be used to make iron. That changed with the work of Abraham Darby I in Coalbrookdale, England. That released iron-making from reliance on wood for charcoal.

[@annfionamaskell7828]

Please consider podcasting with Thomas Homer-Dixon who is passionate about geothermal energy and is a student (prof really) of complexity and political science ... might be you have already met with him Nate have not checked ... interesting idea on our ancestors switch (coercion more like) to grain

[@iancormie9916]

Great interview, would like to hear his views on mobile (transport) fuels ie synthetic diesel subatitutes and amonia etc. What are the efficiencies of these conversions.

[@chrisconklin2981]

In our effort to a more renewable energy based, the term intemittence is often brought up. A future energy grid will be more decentralized by producing more electricity at the consummer level with a guestament of level of 30%. Intermiticency will be mitigated by distribution and storage. HVDC trans-continental trasphers will be common. High Renewable Countries: Norway 98.5%; Brazil 89.2%; New Zealand 86.6%; Colombia 75.1%; Canada 68.8%; Sweden 68.5%; Portugal 61%; Chile 54.6%; Germany 44.4%; United Kingdom 43.3%. Source: Enerdata, 2022 Report.

[@felipearbustopotd]

59:17 There are no handicapped people, there are PEOPLE that are handicapped. Housing just like here in the UK has become an investment asset rather than a HOME, blame the political class for being too myopic. Well not really. Thatcher was to blame as was Reagan for allowing the financial system to rule over us more than in the past. A marriage made in hell. With regards to life pre 1700 the Roman Empire expanded and was limited by its energy usage...i.e. the SUN, that was as close as we got to living in harmony with Mother Nature in a large community that usually topped the 1 million residents per capital city. Since then we have been commoditized from birth to death and that is why we are now in a horrific mess, a mess of our own doings. Thank you for uploading and sharing.😢

[@munyansebastien7127]

It should be noted that Marshall Sahlins', James C. Scott's or Jared Diamond's view of hunter gatherers as an "affluent society" is highly contested by many anthropologists.

[@davestagner]

A few notes on lifecycles… first, current solar panels will last a LONG time. Average panels today lose 0.5% productivity per year, and the best lose about 0.3%. Unless these numbers change over the course of the panel’s life, that means they will still be generating over 80% in 50 years, and over 50% in a century! (It makes sense if you think about it. Solar panels are very simple, with no chemical reactions and no moving parts. They’re basically just spicy windows. Lots of windows over a hundred years old out there!) And right now, most of the solar panels in existence are less than ten years old. So the whole “Why aren’t we recycling them?” is, bluntly, bullshit. It’s oil industry propaganda and we shouldn’t even be taking the question seriously. Second, storage. Although there are indeed many parameters, for grid scale the most important one is cost. Now, for something like vehicles and mobile devices, then weight and charge/discharge speeds matter - hence lithium. But immobile grid batteries can be heavier and slower. They need to be cheaper over their entire lifecycle. So longer-lasting matters. And common materials matter. (As a wise man once said, if you want to make something dirt cheap, make it out of dirt.) So I expect things like redox flow liquid batteries and iron-air batteries will dominate grid storage, for high-volume storage for a few hours to a few days that lasts for decades with minimal maintenance. We don’t need lithium for grid batteries, its main advantage is first mover status. (And as an aside, once we have “enough” grid storage, the whole mining problem more or less goes away. As long as it’s cheaper to recycle than mine, we’ll just keep reusing the materials we already have. But that bright future is still a ways off.) And finally, hydrogen. I feel it’s overrated as a direct storage medium. It’s too low density, and too difficult to handle because of the low density and leakage problem (not to mention liquification is basically impossible). It needs to be either converted to ammonia, combined with CO2 to make hydrocarbons, or something else, to get something denser and easier to store and transport. On the other hand, given enough solar power, we could eventually generate enough stored renewable hydrocarbons to deal with hard-to-electrify situations (shipping, aircraft, winter heating) basically forever. It might take decades to get there, but we CAN get there.

[@barrycarter8276]

An interesting conversation Nate with Graham Palmer but nothing really new when it comes storage, be it chemical, thermal, gravity (kinetic), nuclear, their problems and solutions are still effectively being researched, and so the solution to PVP’s and WT’s intermittency lies unresolved. Mention was made of Art Berman and Simon Michaux, highlighting that virtually everything responsible for the manufacture of PVP’s, WT’s and supporting systems is dependent upon FINITE Flammable Fossils and key minerals, depleting them in pursuit of transitioning to alternative energy sources. The clocks ticking, the alarm to go off when we reach the point of “The Great Simplification” a point that maybe closer than we’d like to think🤔

[@drillerdev4624]

(Efficient) Energy storage is the philosopher's stone of our days. It's not surprising that you haven't heard anything new in a time in which every small progress is sold as clickbaity news systematically. The winner will be the one who manages to implement storage cheapily on an industrial scale (or probably a combination of different systems for different use cases), but we can't know which one it'll be until it exists.

[@drillerdev4624]

Personally, I'm hoping for sodium, if only because it'll give us an excuse to augment desalination. Although an efficient way to use moderate amounts of heat (molten salt thermosolar seems to have too many problems) would be great too.

[@barrycarter8276]

@@drillerdev4624 You say “Efficient) Energy storage is the philosopher's stone of our days” quite true and any lower cost will have to take in the cost of energy, again it’ll be FINITE Flammable Fossil energy and there’s only one direction that’s going and that’s up, though in some case it might appear to drop for periods as it’s overlapped with money for those who can print it and still maintain some value. As far as keeping up with what’s going on in the Rebuildables Energy, sorry Renewable Energy sphere There’s a very good source: David Borlace at “Just Have a Think” on KZbin, if you haven’t already discovered it check it out🤔

[@barrycarter8276]

@@drillerdev4624 Globally only ~20% of energy is supplied in the form of electricity, and only ~2% of that is provided by Renewables/Alternative Energy of which Nuclear Power is one, leaving ~80% still reliant on flammable fossils. So it’s going to have to be some Nuclear Renaissance to break into that 80%. There’s a lot of hokum around SMR’s, and Sodium powered reactors, just one of its problems is getting institutional investors on board and that’s before the public get to have its say. Daily Telegraph 17 Feb 2023: Headline “Britain’s flagship nuclear plant scrambles to avoid cash crunch”:- “EDF added that Hinkley Point C is now expected to cost £32 bn owing to inflation, up from a previous estimate of £26bn. The project was initially expected to cost £18bn when approved in 2016.” And… “The project was originally due to open in 2025 and cost £18bn, but has been delayed and is now expected to open in June 2027 and cost £25bn-£26bn, equivalent to £32bn at today’s prices given inflation.”😱🤔

[@Rosemountainfarm]

Another episode of mind-blowing facts that we face, some embrace, and others deny. When we can't inhabit Earth any longer, only then will we all agree.

[@johnbirk843]

There are national security issues with centrally distributed electrical power. In the 1960s I was living in Canada, when a transformer in the grid distribution site in Buffalo failed. and most of eastern Canada and the eastern US went dark. There were only two of these transformers available at that time and it would take many months, or even years to manufacture additional transformers. A later security analysis pointed out that there are only a dozen distribution nodes around the US relying on this type of transformer and if they were sabotaged it would take months if not years to get the US electrical grid back up again now consider if millions of businesses and homes, with solar and energy storage,as well as electric vehicles, it would be damn near impossible to shut it all down and this type of distributed power generation and storage would increase National security. Unfortunately I rarely ever hear this brought up as the big disadvantage of centrally distributed power generation. Another point is historically wars are often start over access to energy, such as recently the access to petroleum products. If there is no need to secure importation of energy sources, I suspect it would greatly reduce the reasons for countries to go to war. And an additional bonus would be that it would not only lower the cost of living, (the cost of energy is what drives inflation), the money consumers would save would give them a better quality of life and more spending power, which would drive the economy to greater heights, something that businesses would appreciate. I believe the best solution would be a hybrid grid, combining most areas that could be supported locally together with distribution to take care of sudden loads or breakdowns, it's a flexible approach that would address the issues and reduce the vulnerability of sabotage. Scientia Habet Non Domus, (Knowledge Has No Home) antiguajohn

[@jonb5493]

Excellent.

[@cdineaglecollapsecenter4672]

I expect the people in some areas had hunted out most of the edible wildlife & started eating more plants. Just because some hunting- gathering societies are sustainable doesn't mean they all are.

[@FrankReif]

Graeber and Wengrow's Dawn of Everything pretty much debunks the hunter-gatherer to agriculture evolutionary complexity hypothesis. Anthropologists and archaeologists should be the only people who speculate on it because that's the only source of data we have - physicists and engineers should stick to what they do best.

[@Rosemountainfarm]

I am still a firm believer that we have no business rebuilding our old outdated grid. We need to require all new construction to be off grid, and independent. That transition would be no more difficult than rebuilding old infrastructures. All grid power should be used for factory and hospitals. Residences can and should be independent of each other. Or at the least have every neighborhood have there own power source that suits the micro environment that it is situated in. Whatever potential power is nearest to where you live, be it hydro, natural gas, solar or wind or a combination of.

[@Rosemountainfarm]

And most of all for God sake, ppl need to use less!

[@guringai]

Off grid independence is wasteful, due to the need to meet peak energy requirements in a highly localised spot. It's easier to fulfil troughs in one place when there are peaks somewhere else. That's the beauty of a distributed energy system, each of us rewuiring less energy infrastructure. My brother has been living off grid with his wife for 30 years & they are well aware of the challenges of such a system - as am I. Charging our EV there in the summer was difficult & slow, but would be impossible during winter. An EV needs only 1/4 of the energy inputs compared to a fossil fuel vehicle.

[@Rosemountainfarm]

I did agree it is doable we just have to accept that there also must be a lifestyle adjustment

[@thebeautifulones5436]

storing grain for the future as a means of enslaving the population has a biblical context. In Exodus the Egyptian peasants were taxed and their grain stored in Pharaoh's silos. when the drought came the peasants ate their seed and then came begging for food which they were given when they sold themselves into servitude. All part of Joseph's plan.

[@lorilafferty4099]

I hate taxes

[@bumblebee9337]

Flow based? Electricity is an electromagnetic carrier, analogous to air being a medium for sound (mechanical energy).

[@johnstephenson296]

Why doesn't anyone talk about heat energy storage? OK, batteries can store about 300 kWh/tonne, but hot water storage with a 50﮿C delta T stores a not bad 60 kWh/tonne. At gigawatt hour scale it is about 1/200th the capital cost per kWh stored, with high charging and discharge rates, no degradation over a long (50-year) life, no toxic materials disposal at end of life, no possibility of catching fire and no dependence on shaky international supply chains. Dig a pit, line it with polymer, put on a floating insulated cover and install inlet and outlet pipes and pumps. OK hot water is not that easy to turn back into electricity, but it can be used for district heating instead of decarbonizing through electrification. It could thereby serve equivalent purpose. Surplus electricity could make and store hot water, then district heating would avoid the peak power draw on the electricity system at the peak heating times. It amazes me that no one discuses this.

[@NancyBruning]

This podcast started with food storage. What about food storage and preservation? We have fish from Chile and Thailand in our supermarket! Frozen and kept frozen after we buy it. There will be a huge impact on food production and markets if we choose not to spend our energy on refrigeration and produce and buy locally and often.

[@doctorcrafts]

Huh?

[@paulwhetstone0473]

Graham needs to look no further than the growing BRICS economic alliance to witness a challenge to the petrodollar.

[@j85grim4]

Haven't we already had around 20 energy experts on here? I want to hear from some actual social psychologists like Sheldon Solomon who can talk about how we can change the minds of people to make these possible solutions actually happen.

[@CosmicCompassionQuest]

that is a good point. we've articulated the problem statement pretty well haven't we. I believe the only genuine silver bullet solution to the predicament lies in a radical culture shift which will of course require the embrace of a new paradigm. At the same time, people need to have the assurance that if they are going to step out onto the limb of a new paradigm, they're going to survive the experience. So these experts explaining the possible solution paths is very valuable also.

[@j85grim4]

​​​@@CosmicCompassionQuestYes I understand that. I was talking more in relation to the content of this podcast. I think he's had over 20 energy experts on here now, and they have started to repeat themselves. There are other very important aspects to the great simplicity that's coming like how humans will behave (psychology) and also, the population driver of the problem has almost been avoided entirely.

[@j85grim4]

​@@CosmicCompassionQuestHe has had a few spiritual guru's like Ian McGil on here which is good for helping people fell better but I am much more interested in what actual scientists in the psychology and social psychology field think the most likely human behaviors will be once this happens

[@iancormie9916]

Seems the social scientists, politicians and financiers have been running (and messing up) the system thus far. Big money has manipulated the popular press and environmental movements to the point where nuclear plants were shut down on both sides of the Atlantic with no viable alternative and no technical justification. If the rest of the world was not doing what they could Germany would have collapsed after Nordstream. So in summary, the last people we should be listening to regarding energy policy are uninformed journalists with little or no engineering background. Financiers who's only objective in life is the accumulation of wealth and the control that comes with it or politicians who specialize in little other than getting re-elected or high-school dropouts (with or without pigtails). These types have been polluting the discourse for the last 20 years. It is time the engineers and technical types had their say.

[@doctorcrafts]

Lol

[@j.s.c.4355]

I think we need to stop thinking in absolutes. If we could get our fossil fuel use down to like 30 billion barrels from 100, our situation would be so much better, and we still probably have enough surge capacity to stabilize the grid. Yes, we would still be putting carbon in the atmosphere, but at 1/3 the rate, and perhaps the ecosystem could deal with that. I don’t know, but would soften the landing, if nothing else.

[@bumblebee9337]

An ideal battery: made of commonly available materials; can be charged/discharged indefinitely without requiring refurbishing; is fully recyclable/non-polluting. From an ecological perspective, energy density is less important.

[@alandoane9168]

From a physics perspective, it's not remotely possible.

[@bumblebee9337]

@@alandoane9168 Oh well, that leaves less-than-ideal or business as usual.

[@tristan7216]

​@@alandoane9168people are working on iron batteries, and iron is much more common and inexpensive than lithium. ED too low for cars but perhaps cheap enough for grid storage.

[@Ascending4111]

Unplug from the debt-based system and keep it simple. Sovereign in the making.

[@Defi_Babar]

Great talk, I feel like this whole talk made me believe even more that nuclear is the only viable path forward without massive sudden lifestyle change.

[@wvhaugen]

And once you see through the smoke and mirrors of nuclear power, you will then have to support massive sudden lifestyle changes.

[@davestagner]

I’ve gone the opposite direction. I think nuclear is doomed to failure, because it is economically incapable of competing with renewables. Think about this… demand varies throughout the day, as much as 50%. But nuclear reactors can’t easily scale power up and down in response to demand, so you need a more responsive load-following layer on the grid. Currently, that’s mostly gas peaker plants - nuclear is not viable without them. The other solution, which is coming online now, is battery storage. So you can’t do nuclear without at least one of these. The next issue is that renewable sources are variable as well as decoupled from demand, so they also need peakers or storage. But when they’re producing, they’re by far the cheapest source of energy - cheaper than nuclear is and probably cheaper than even fantasy nuclear could be. A heavy-renewable grid has long periods just about every day where more energy is being produced than consumed - which can be used to charge up storage. But this SUCKS for base load systems that can’t follow demand, because they’re forced to operate, at cost, when electricity price is effectively zero. You know, like nuclear (and coal). So for a clean grid (which includes not using gas peaker plants), the dominant force is storage - buy cheap surplus electricity, sell when there’s demand. An all-renewable grid would charge during the day and run on storage at night, an all-nuclear grid would run (partially) on storage during the day and charge at night. So ultimately, what matters most is the cost of producing electricity, not the consistency. And renewables, especially PV solar, are WAY WAY WAY cheaper than traditional nuclear, and cheaper than any of the proposed 4th gen systems. And the situation is even worse for nuclear if the grid is partially renewable, driving down energy prices when the sun shines and the wind blows. That’s not even getting into the distribution and centralization issues - nuclear is 100% dependent on a highly centralized grid. Renewables, especially solar, can be installed cheaply at very small scale (small enough to run a single cell phone!), which makes building off-grid viable. I just don’t see an economically viable path for nuclear.

[@sudd3660]

but we need massive lifestyle changes. we do everything wrong right now.

[@michlwezenngraon7487]

Graham is an extremely diplomatic academic very careful, for his career's sake (and he cannot be blamed for this) to not contradict my country's fantasy about it becoming a 'powerhouse of renewable energy '. The reality is that Australians surpass Americans in carbon emissions per capita and are fiercely determined to continue promoting and practicing an unsustainable wasteful lifestyle and exporting nasty sulphur-laden coal as fast as ships can take it to China, Japan and India. Australia's renewables program is no more than a way of pulling the wool over our eyes and trying to deflect the growing international awareness that Australia is an environmental vandal, locally and internationally.

[@harveytheparaglidingchaser7039]

Look at sand batteries, cheap and easy.

[@peteraddison4371]

... so ah ...

[@hitreset0291]

Hydrogen is the fossil fuel industry's GIANT CONJOB.

[@johnbirk843]

Okay, if I may I would like to inject a few facts. Use of cobalt is a trope frog out by the fossil fuel industry who neglect to tell you the vast amount of cobalt used is used in refining petroleum products and when it's done with that there's nothing left. On the other hand in batteries it can be recycled many times and on top of that newer batteries use less or even no Cobalt. If it's okay, I will post my corrections one at a time

[@johnbirk843]

In Hornsdale, in Australia, Tesla constructed 140 Wwh. battery, powered by solar and wind, it was so efficient it could start up in twenty milliseconds and paid for itself with less than three years. On the other hand gas turbine peaker plants have now become stranded assets, in other words scrap. Scientia Habet Non Domus, (Knowledge Has No Home) antiguajohn

[@doctorcrafts]

Well said lol

[@miketaylor7023]

We have to give up capitalism to increase efficiency. The money system and trade has to be eliminated ,and replaced with energy efficiency in making a basic minimum wealth standard for everybody that almost everyone will agree to if the solution applies to them as well. That might mean reducing the population to a billion individuals or less gradually and steadily to conserve resources and give whoever's around more time to evolve knowledge and understanding along with technologies. More public transportation to move around cities to reduce flows of energy. Sustainable farming without pesticides. Rounder rooms to reduce energy for cooling and heating. Making some things like light bulbs and those reebok shorts they used to make last alot longer. All that's impossible as long as money exists. The curious aspect of population growth is that insane individuals rise to power and wealth. Psychopaths see eachother and cooperate. The problem is as world population increases so does the insanity or one billion plus individuals . But that means they're more of them and they're concentration of say , psychopaths , within financial circles grow and that makes the greed problem alot worse because there are more of them . And they gravitate towards eachother and cooperate. But with 8 billion people AND more concentrations of insane along with psychopaths it reinforces and creates financial instabilities having that many more insane going for unlimited wealth at any cost! Because of that it makes our demise as a species happen exponentially faster also! More cooperation between more psychopaths,sociopaths,narcissists ,and bipolar individuals speeds up the thermodynamic process of universal entropy in energy or matter overall. Because there's more nuts who believe in exponential wealth it exacerbates all of our problems sooner!

[@cdineaglecollapsecenter4672]

Nomadic pastoral societies eventually came up with (limited) hierarchies and military organization - though I suppose you can think of livestock as stored energy (both for eating and transportation)

[@cjclaeys4368]

what I keep concluding over and over with every symptom/issue decompression is that there is always a lowest common denominator and the scary thing is that we won't understand it until it is too late

[@doctorcrafts]

Deep

[@liamtaylor4955]

Why THE F*CK am I not travelling, "for the biosphere"? I sure as hell can afford it and have the time to do it, too.

[@TheUAoB]

I suspect there is a misinterpretation about per capita energy consumption now vs 1970s: It’s not that people had less in the 1970s, but they were further up the enropy gradient. As time goes on ever more energy is needed just to stand still. Tainter's Complexity Theory is just part of the puzzle.

[@doctorcrafts]

Huh?

[@guringai]

The most powerful reason to go all electric Is that we will only need half of the energy inputs compared to the current fossil fuel system. The extensive works of Saul Griffith show the huge benefits of the transition.

[@wvhaugen]

Electricity is not lying about, nor growing on trees. It has to be generated. Right now 80% of it is generated by burning fossil fuels. The renewable infrastructure is built by fossil fuels. Maintenance is powered by fossil fuels. Any true solution requires a massive reduction in electricity use, which means collapse of the interconnected global economy. Us true environmental activists have known this for over fifty years, which is why we have reduced our energy footprint and are prepared for collapse and dieoff.

[@hitreset0291]

@30.50min ???Seasonal storage of hydrogen in salt caves"??? Seriously?! You were just kidding right??? The losses would be phenomenal ~ not to mention its very very low efficiency rate.

[@AdamMcLean-le4tw]

Nickel iron batteries for stationary storage. Lasts for decades. Low tech

[@manoftheroad55]

Odd.. Australier has an existing nomadic population .. perhaps talking to an Aboriginal person ? Perhaps they can introduce us to meaning of life ?? Does anyone believe continuity of existing lifestyle is a possible ..2,000,000,000 increase population since 1995. ..1/3 increase world population .. Perhaps population and its age demographics worth expiring ??

[@harveytheparaglidingchaser7039]

Went to the Phillips museum Eindhoven early eighties. The world population clock had just surpassed 4 billion. It's just mad

[@antonyjh1234]

I always find it odd people think we should look to populations of people that moved around depending on weather, resources, that fought over these resources when different nomadic tribes met, that they somehow knew the meaning of life, it's such an odd thing to say that when things were different, their impact was less just because they were hunter gatherers.

[@manoftheroad55]

@@antonyjh1234 mobile communities exist now .. usually called Gipsy.. a separate community.. away from main stream .. with histories and customs and values from before steam industrial revolution.. In UK these traveling groups worked as seasonal agricultural workers. Minimalist consumption.. minimalist expense non seditry.. Q: will our high tec, high consumer,high energy, present lifestyle, where everything depends .. particularly food .. transport..re-ordering .. yes re-ordering because without electric supermarkets cannot restock .. never discussed .. Will The Present last 1000 years .. This present " 1960 Revolution" began floundering 2008.

[@antonyjh1234]

What does this have to do with australian aborigines?@@manoftheroad55

[@antonyjh1234]

PS How are travelling communities with possibly more fossil fuel use, better? I'm not sure what the second paragraph is supposed to mean, sorry.@@manoftheroad55

[@drillerdev4624]

Just starting the chapter, but I have to say that I'm surprised that Nate's australian media quotes wasn't from the Mad Max saga, all things considered.

[@davidmitchell4077]

What about nuclear to keep the flow smooth? Nuclear fuel can be stored.

[@bumblebee9337]

Nuclear is/will be used as a supplement to fossil fuels.

[@CharlesBrown-xq5ug]

Civilization may have progressed enough to conquer the second law of thermodynamics. Civilization needs to strive for this goal with synergistic interdisciplinary teams.The outcome would be perpetually changeable never gained or lost energy. There would be no loss of energy as it changes form. For example the total quantity of thermal energy in an equal pair of two thermal energy reserves with ideal insulation would remain the same regardless of how heat is distributed between the two and how often the distribution of heat between the two is changed. For example in one case one reserve could contain ice water while the other reserve contained hot water; in another case both reserves could contain tepid water. The redistribution of heat between members of pairs with the same total thermal energy would be free. Diversity, time, and energy are different atributes. Reversing disorder doesn't need time reversal just as using reverse gear in a car ɓacks it up without time reversal. The second law of thermodynamics had a distinct begining with Sir Isaac Newton's correct professional scientific observation that the heat of a fire in a fireplace always flows towards the cold room beyond. Victorian England became enchanted with steam engines and their cheap, reliable, and easy to position physical power. Rudolf Julius Emanuel Clausius, Lord Kelven, and, one source adds, Nicolas Léonard Sadi Carnot, formulated the Second law of thermodynamics and the concept of entropy using evidence from steam engine development. These men considered with acceptance [A+] Inefficiently harnessing the flow of heat from hot to cold or [B+] Using force to Inefficiently pump heat from cold to hot. They considered with rejection [A-] Waiting for random fluctuation to cause a large difference in temperature or pressure. This was calculated to be extremely rare or [B-] Searching for, selecting, then routing for use, random, frequent and small differences in temperature or pressure. The search, selection, then routing would require more energy than the use would yield. These accepted options, lead to the consequence that the universe will end in stagnant heat death. This became support for a theological trend of the time that placed God as the initiator of a degenerating universe. Please consider that God could also be supreme over an energy abundant civilization that can absorb heat and convert it into electricity without energy gain or loss in a sustained universe. The law's formulaters did not consider the option that any random, usually small, fluctuation of heat or pressure could use the energy of these fluctuations itself to power deterministic routing so the output is no longer random. Then the net power of many small fluctuations from many replicant parts can be aggregated into a large difference in temperature, pressure, or electricity's amperes and volts Heat exists as the randomly directed kinetic energy of gas molecules or mobile electrons. In gasses this is known as Brownian motion. In electronic systems this is carefully labeled Johnson Nyquist thermal electrical noise for AI readability. Hypothetically, diode depletion regions are practical sites for enabling mobile electrons energized into motion by heat to deterministically alter the electrical resistance of the depletion region according to the moment by moment direction they are carrying electricity. The thermal electrical noise is hypothetically beyond the exposed lattice charge / separation drift (diffusion) equlibrium thickness of the depletion region as thermal noise exists in a resistance path of one material. Consistantly oriented diodes in parallel hypothetically are successful electrical Maxwell's Demons or Smoluchowski's Trapdoors. The energy needed to shift the depletion region's deterministic role is paid as a burden on the moving electrons. There would therefore be usable net rectified power from each and every diode connected together into a consistantly oriented parallel group. The group would aggregate the net power of its members. Any diode efficiency at all produces some energy conversion from ambient heat, more efficiency yields higher performance. A diode array that is switched off has no energy conversion and no performance. The power from a single diode is poorly expressed. Several or more diodes in parallel are needed to overcome the effect of a load resistor's own thermal noise. A plurality of billions of high frequency capable diodes is needed for practical power aggregation. For reference, there are a billion (10^9) 1000 square nanometer cells per square millimeter. Modern nanofabrication can make simple identical diodes surrounded by insulation smaller than this in a slab as thick as the diodes are long. The diodes are connected at their two ohmic ends to two conductive layers. Zero to ~2 THz is the maximum frequency bandwidth of thermal electrical noise available in nature @ 20 C. THz=10^12 Hz. This is beyond the range of most diodes. Practicality requires this extreme bandwidth. The diodes are preferably in same orientation parallel at the primary level. Many primary level groups of diodes should be in series for practical voltage. Ever since the supposedly universal second law of thermodynamics was formulated, education has mass produced and spread the conventional wisdom throughout society that the second law of thermodynamics is absolute. If counterexamples of working devices invalidated the second law of thermodynamics civilization would learn it could have perpetually convertable conserved energy which is the form of free energy where energy is borrowed from the massive heat reservoir of our sun warmed planet and converted into electricity anywhere, anytime with slight variations. Electricity produces heat immediately when used by electric heaters, electromechanical mechanisms, and electric ligts so the energy borrowed by these devices is promply returned without gain or loss. There is also the reverse effect where refrigeration produces electricity equivalent to the cooling, This effect is scientifically elegant. Cell phones wouldn't die or need power cords or batteries or become hot. They would cool when transmitting radio signal power. The phones could also be data relays and there could also be data relays without phone features with and without long haul links so the telecommunication network would be improved. Computers and integrated circuits would have their cooling and electrical needs supplied autonomously and simultaniously. Integrated circuits wouldn't need power pinouts. Refrigeration for superconductors would improve. Robots would have extreme mobility. Digital coin minting would be energy cheap. Frozen food storage would be reliable and free or value positive. Storehouses, homes, and markets would have independent power to preserve and pŕepare food. Medical devices would work anywhere. Vehicles wouldn't need fuel or fueling stops. Elevators would be very reliable with independent power. Shielding and separation would provide EMP resistance. Water and sewage pumps could be installed anywhere along their pipes. Nomads could raise their material supports item by item carefully and groups of people could modify their settlements with great technical flexibility. Many devices would be very quiet, which is good for coexisting with nature and does not disturb people. Zone refining would involve little net power. Reducing Bauxite to Aluminum, Rutile to Titanium, and Magnideetite to Iron, would have a net cooling effect. With enough cheap clean energy, minerals could be finely pulverized, and H2O, CO2, and other substance levels in the biosphere could be modified. A planetary agency needs to look over wide concerns. This could be a material revolution with spiritual ramifications. Everyone should contribute individual talents and fruits of different experiances and cultures to advance a cooperative, diverse, harmonious and unified civilization. It is possible to apply technlology wrong but social force should oppose this. I filed for patent us 3890161A, Diode Array, in 1973. It was granted in 1975. It became public domain technology in 1992. It concerns making nickel plane-insulator-tungsten needle diodes which were not practical at the time though they have since improved. the patent wasn't developed partly because I backed down from commercial exclusitivity. A better way for me would have been a public incorruptable archive that would secure attrbution for the original works of creators. Uncorrupted copies would be released on request. No further action would be taken by this institution. Commercal exclusivity can be deterred by the wide and open publishing of inventive concepts. Also, the obvious is unpatentsable. Open sharing promotes mass knowlege and wisdom. Many financially and procedurally independent teams that pool developmental knowlege, and may be funded by many separate noncontrolling crowd sourced grants should convene themselves to develop proof-of-concept and initial-recipe-exploring prototypes to develop devices which coproduce the release of electrical energy and an equivalent absorbtion of stagnant ambient thermal energy. Diode arrays are not the only possible device of this sort. They are the easiest to explain generally. These devices would probably become segmented commodities sold with minimal margin over supply cost. They would be manufactured by AI that does not need financial incentive. Applicable best practices would be adopted. Business details would be open public knowledge. Associated people should move as negotiated and freely and honestly talk. There is no need of wealth extracting top commanders. We do not need often token philanthropy from the wealthy if people simply can be more generous if consumer commodities are inexpensive. Aloha Charles M Brown lll Kilauea, Kauai, Hawaii 96754 1 808 651 📞📞📞📞

[@liamhickey359]

Could you run that by me again?.

[@realeyesrealizereallies6828]

We have not conquered anything..The laws of thermodynamics, the laws of nature and the laws that govern complex systems have sealed our fate..Everything we have built is temporary...

[@robertzabinski6083]

Whatever you're smoking, Don't pass it. Like King Midas' mythical touch, unlimited energy would be a curse not a blessing. Even if carbon residuals are omitted from the calculation, the limited fossil fuels pulse has enabled and driven myriad other aspects of ecological destruction

[@realeyesrealizereallies6828]

@@robertzabinski6083 Hawaiin bud is good, thankfully it never affected me like that...But, what would you expect from Charlie Brown, this civilization will keep lifting the football as he tries to kick the field goal..

[@CharlesBrown-xq5ug]

A fluidic breakeven perpetual energy system may be assembled from a fluid filled lower tank and upper tank with a Tesla vavular conduit with millions of nanometer scale asymmetrical flow channels. The channels are small enough to partially rectify the Brownian motion of the fluid. The Tesla valve differentially and deterministically pumps fluid up one pipe. from the lower tank to the upper tank simultaneously decreasing its thermal energy and increaseing its gravitational potential energy. Another subsystem of plpes between the tanks inserts a fluid turbine which returns the fluid to the lower tank and yields mechanical energy. This system is less practical than an electronic analog. ALOHA

[@tristan7216]

Non market economics doesn't scale. To have non market "caring" economies you will need to roll back globalism 1000 years and separate populations into small scale societies producing most things locally and with your interpersonal interactions mostly limited to a small set of people you grew up with. Not sure that's socially possible (or desirable) without a disaster at a scale which would probably kill us all. I'd rather go hard on nuclear and any other clean tech we can get to produce energy on demand at scale, while letting population fall to sustainable carrying capacity over the next few centuries due to existing birthrate trends. If the tech is good enough we can expand off planet, but we should assume it will no more than replace, or partially replace, existing fuels, until Hora's hydrogen-boron chirped laser fusion miracle or something similar actually happens (you don't buy a ferrari after graduation in anticipation of definitely becoming a millionaire soon).

[@annibjrkmann8464]

Why are the comments so stupid? Are all of them made by AIs

[@deejay8ch]

Yep. Al Cahollix and Al Packers 😁

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

How long until KZbin no longer works? :-)

[@deejay8ch]

@@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner Google it ;)