Grant Williams: A Return to Gold, Systemic Risk Increasing, Bitcoin Hesitations

In this episode with Grant Williams powered by Bitdeer Technologies Group (Nasdaq: BTDR) we discuss:
- Financial crises, bubbles and leverage
- The dollar's days are numbered
- Gold is not an ‘investment’
- Gold vs. S&P 500
- Our money has no value because it’s reproduced at will
- Wealth gap between CEOs and workers
- Stock prices: "we’re renters not owners"
- We set in motion seeds of our own demise
--
Bio: Grant Williams is the creator of the "Things That Make You Go Hmmm..." newsletter, co-founder of on-demand financial media platform "Real Vision," host of "The Grant Williams Podcast," senior advisor to Matterhorn Asset Management AG in Switzerland, and a portfolio and strategy advisor to Vulpes Investment Management in Singapore. He began his career in the Japanese equity market in the mid-1980s, and has since spent time in London, New York, Hong Kong, Sydney, Singapore and the Cayman Islands.
Follow Grant on X: / ttmygh
--
⚡ Coin Stories is powered by Bitdeer Technologies Group (NASDAQ: BTDR), a publicly-traded leader in Bitcoin mining that stands alone as the only vertically-integrated, technology-focused Bitcoin mining company. Learn more at bit.ly/bitdeercoinstories.
Natalie’s Promotional Links:
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-- This podcast should not be construed as investment advice --
🗒️ IN THIS EPISODE:
00:00 Starting in Japanese equity market
2:00 1987 Black Monday, dot com bubble late 90's
3:43 Response to crisis
8:52 Bitdeer Technologies Group promo
9:52 Leverage is the problem and solution
12:21 Who benefits from stimulus?
14:31 Is gold a good investment?
18:17 Why are central banks buying more gold?
21:01 Gold vs. Bitcoin
23:34 Will the US Dollar fail?
27:39 Bitcoin 2024 promo
28:07 Coinkite Coldcard Wallet promo
28:26 CrowdHealth promo
28:55 Gold's performance
31:28 Gold vs. S&P 500
34:52 Money is broken
38:49 Teaching basic finance
45:00 Breaking the system
50:09 Should people choose their money?
52:57 Learning about Bitcoin
59:21 The government doesn't like Bitcoin
💡 OTHER RESOURCES
Natalie’s website: talkingbitcoin.com/
Grant's website & newsletter: www.grant-williams.com/
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Producer: Aron Bender / aron-bender
DISCLAIMER Coin Stories is for entertainment purposes only and does not give financial advice. #bitcoin #crypto #money

[@nataliebrunell]

Subscribe to never miss episodes of the Coin Stories Podcast with Natalie Brunell: kzbin.info. Beware of impersonators and scammers on KZbin and all social platforms. We will NEVER ask you for personal information or to send money anywhere. Links to our promotional partners are in the show notes. Thank you for watching!

[@ericreslock100]

Terrific guest. As a Bitcoiner myself I respect his decision not to buy Bitcoin until he is satisfied with answers to his really good questions. Diamond hands are made from this approach.

[@luxonlabs]

Great episode, I was surprised with the gold returns since 2000.

[@chud67]

Agreed, that was very interesting.

[@Acd1217]

I love the fact that you are bringing guests on with opposing perspectives; it’s very refreshing. We can all agree to disagree, that’s what makes a society. Thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@grantadamson1501]

Yes agree Yiu don't often see that

[@finster37]

This channel is becoming one of my favorite KZbin subs. Keep up with great work Natalie!

[@senorgringopapi2059]

Bitcoin > gold > everything else

[@atheplummer]

pHEX > BTC > gold > everything else... There, fixed it for ya'.

[@RobEGR19]

It’s imperative to recuse yourself from a dissenting view upon something that you do not understand. He was half way there in admitting his ignorance yet he still felt it okay to try and point out a perceived flaw in Bitcoin; “flaws” which are easily debunked mind you. Personally I never had to learn Calculus. I effectively do not know the first thing about it. Therefore I openly recuse myself on any opinion about it. I acknowledge it exists and is a recognized form of mathematics and leave it that…maybe one day I’ll study Calculus to understand it. Hopefully this very welcoming interview will be the kindle to ignite a fire in him down the path of Bitcoin. Thank you Natalie for being so open to a wide range of guests.

[@user-99.99]

Excellent interview. Very reasoned. Thank you.

[@caligulapontifex5759]

I seriously don’t understand his argument for not owning Bitcoin. He says he’s worried about government confiscation of Bitcoin and as a result he owns gold. But gold has a history of confiscation. Help me understand

[@wobblergong]

He literally told you in the interview. It was gold held domestically that was confiscated, from honest people who did what the government told them to do.

[@wesleydunn5106]

You can sell gold anywhere !

[@wesleydunn5106]

You can also hold gold in your hand .

[@guidogp2020]

You need first to understand why you dont buy gold and instead btc ....😅😢

[@Tony-ft4jp]

Banks worldwide are loading up on gold, so are all brics Nations for years now!! Why arent they loading up on bitcoin instead? Because they will come out with there own digital currencies and nations dont want competition!! Gold has a 5000 yr usage ,Simple as that!!

[@Jen-po3wz]

I would listen to this man carefully.

[@MothershipVR]

Props to this dude for having an open mind. He admits not having studied it enough but being open to Bitcoin. More folks should be like Grant

[@Reflect50]

Thank you. Grant is such a brilliant man and the interview was fantastic !!!

[@stephenkovaka266]

Since we don’t know the future, own some gold or silver AND own some BTC. But forget the stock market. Choose your best 2 out of 3.

[@tubaljohn1]

Thank you. Great conversation. Very informative.Nate, your facial expressions were funny. This guy was wrong! You kept form, but what can you do. Thank you for the guest. Smart man.

[@richardsacchetti6967]

GREAT INTERVIEW NATALIE 🙏🙏

[@JohntheNobleSavage]

Correct Ms. Natalie: Agreed. The dollar is numbered; but when it finally does get replaced and it shall then all hell will be breaking out in this county since we are currently sending China approximately one billion dollars a month for various merchandise we no longer make here. But when the dollar can't not be exchanged worldwide then all of a sudden the cost of these goods will go up by at least thirty percent overnight!

[@knowledgeincrease3326]

EXACTLY Natalie.......SELF EDUCATE is great

[@wilsonbennett659]

What a great point on the aligning incentives of the CEO and investors to increase the stock price at the detriment of the service the company provides.

[@jays9870]

Fantastic interview Natalie! Grant is an exceptional guest and you two had a terrific conversation that was both informative and entertaining. Thank you for this.

[@DavidAbbitt-nb8zo]

Great guest!

[@claytonhufford6922]

The best!!!!!!!

[@EFV2000]

the education takes time to get through.

[@victoriabarnett4279]

Really good information on understanding human investing thought process. One of the best shows on line. Thanks.

[@ralflustig2180]

Grant, you´re almost there. Here´s a boomers (and hardcore goldbug) advice to you: Spend some hours on BTC education. Read some books, listen to some more pods. It will be worth it. I didn´t sell all my gold to buy BTC after I got it (but most) - and you also shouldn´t. BUT: Do more research and get off of zero.

[@John-dh1od]

What happens if the government prevents you from using btc. If they prevent retailers from accepting btc. Another problem I have is how does btc price stabilize to make it a store of value? The available btc that will be available for purchase will decrease as time goes on so that a sale of small amounts will significantly affect the price

[@chud67]

Excellent interview. I have watched quite a few videos on your channel Natalie, and just subscribed. You are producing great educational content. I think that gold and Bitcoin are both worth owning. Thanks for giving time to both assets.

[@ivorytickle]

Great perspective from Grant, and as always, wonderful questions from Natalie. I loved hearing Grant feet-on-the-ground reasoning about how the money is broken, how we have incentivised stock-price increase and the crazy CEOs remuneration that came due to it, and also the fact that he is interested in it, but does not have enough time right now to learn more about Bitcoin. Maybe/Hopefully Natalie has provided him with some resources off the air ;)

[@floridastacker]

Happy I jumped into IBIT heavy the first week in my 401K.

[@hart-coded]

Grant Williams blance perspective is smart

[@thetogo2962]

Very nice discussion

[@ocox8659]

Excellent discussion 👏

[@vineeri4tallinn264]

A brilliant episode ❤ really wow ❤ followed all channels

[@detectiveofmoneypolitics]

Economic investigator Frank G Melbourne Australia is still following this very informative content cheers Frank 😊

[@johnsalem7765]

I always wonder how thousands of tons of gold purchase doesn’t move the price.

[@ciarancoyne9104]

Thanks a mill🙏🏻

[@user-bf9le4qq2w]

love that smile natalie, warm friendly, caring smile ... bye

[@knoxlowe1]

Natalie, Your guest repeated a very common misconception at the 16 min mark. He said that, " gold is going to maintain your purchasing power and history has born this out." That's not exactly true. It depends when you buy and when you sell. If you bought in the early to mid 1970's and sold in Jan 1980, you made out like a bandit. However, if you bought gold in early 1990 and sold 10 years later, you lost almost half of your money. So, if you can wait 10 or 20 years for a good price to sell your gold, he's right. But, if you buy at the top or even half way down to the low, you will find that this misconception is not always true.

[@Arantxa.Tissot]

This channel is great

[@yep3410]

Great Discussion. One point of difference w Grant: The budgets in the US weren't balanced because of Clinton. They were balanced because Newt Gingrich, the Speaker of the House kept Clinton's spending ambitions in check.

[@END-THE-FED]

The entire Bitcoin blockchain is audited every 10min.

[@WalksOfWonder-BC]

Good

[@paul5434]

You look different Miss Brunell. You look happier than you normally do.

[@krzysztofdowgird616]

greetings from Poland Natally - great interview😄

[@bobiq]

Thanks again, Natalie for having a good variety of guests. He might be a perfect example of a boomer generation that is in retirement, who skimmed the system for years and his only worry is not lose his 'hard-earned' (lmao) money What are his drivers? The emotion called 'afraid to lose'. He will be selling everything as soon as he can into fiat and he will get really hurt. The Bitcoin train is going to whiz right past him so fast that he will fall to the ground and wonder for the rest of his life what has just happened. Thanks again, Natalie for entering all those little bubbles that represent the society at large. Next: get someone running a family office and family wealth of HNWI, please.

[@smithbrady6173]

Well done. Thankyou

[@HowardARoark]

It is the capital gains tax that ties Bitcoin to the government, because if you don't comply with that then you get done with tax fraud.

[@brianharris9835]

All investments are speculative

[@SA-vx5eu]

you should be in hollywood nat

[@nuki3234]

On 11/8/21 the dog walkers said to the Rubes. Look. You can have 100 shares of Magic Truck RIVIAN for only $17,947. That money bought 9.9 oz. of gold. Bravo said "the truck 100 shares is $1110". The 9.9oz gold is $20,146. This is one of my favorite mania sucker stock stories!

[@AZmisc]

If someone is afraid of flying airplanes don't waste your time arguing with them. If someone is afraid of Bitcoin don't waste your time arguing with them.

[@JamesBond-vg6wz]

Everything you own has no real value..Time is your most valuable asset..Don't waste it..🙏🌍

[@OnSiteTrav]

This is why I don’t understand why bitcoin doesn’t adopt Monero features. Also the white papers are very similar.

[@zajnat9747]

Yah I’m waiting for USD to plummet so can buy more. USD.

[@barbaraatkinson2204]

We print it that’s what the national debt shows us we are not producing anything for that printing which causes devaluation of the dollar and causes inflation it’s pretty simple . They do not want you to know how financial market we have to learn that through the history of our systems

[@mitchtavio]

If he is waiting for 6000 years of Bitcoin history before he considers it, that’s a hard stipulation to meet.

[@John-dh1od]

What I don't understand is how will btc ever be a store of value with its price fluctuations? Its price must stabilize for it to be a good store of value. The sale of small amounts of btc will dramatically change its price

[@latorregolf]

Bitcoin didn't just suddenly appear as Grant suggests. The Cypherpunks were dreaming of decentralized money for 30+ years going back to 1976 and Diffie-Helmans break thru in public key cryptography

[@AlainBelanger-nd2eh]

They should sell or activate the market instead look at it

[@user-jm7rc4xh8i]

Legend my ass

[@justintan1198]

👍

[@philfortner1805]

Goldbugs just use wagon coin transported on wagons of the future.

[@jeffsurfanderson]

If they can Outlaw gold that can Outlaw Bitcoin the reason why they can it's because it'll be in direct conflict with their cbdc that they would want to start and for them it's all about control and power

[@wobblergong]

The 'magical money tree' elephant in the room with Bitcoin is Tether. Never wed an asset. Until Tether issues a full audit, people are playing with fire.

[@mgsmith4]

Some will "accuse you of cherry picking" because you are cherry picking lol. Bitcoin shits all over gold return since it's inception. No cherry picking required.

[@jeffsurfanderson]

How far is the gold losing its Reserve status that can happen within the next 3 years but it doesn't mean that the dollar goes away. You have to realize the opposition to the dollar which would be the brics countries and alliances of the bricks and how many people there are that could potentially use an alternate currency they have the advantage not us it's somewhere in the realm of 65 to 70 of the world's population could just on a whim decide not to use the dollar because the backup would be whatever the bricks currency would be

[@knowledgeincrease3326]

The FIAT CURRENCY was meant to be broken at some point......the time has come WAKE UP 😂

[@user-um6gg3qh7j]

👍🎉👍

[@knowledgeincrease3326]

The alternative is CBDC. THIS IS BY DESIGN....

[@edreeves121]

Dome endless ads and inane support of bitcoin are warnings.

[@woollas]

BTC no fear.

[@user-ol7tl1vf5m]

Cause and Effect Counterfeiting is the cause. Bitcoin is the effect.

[@jaytee6513]

Never keep your gold in a safe deposit box. You just gave it to the banks when they fail.

[@weslee511]

Around 46:20 the guest attempts to explain problems discussed. His explaination is 'incentives' and he makes good points but misses the ultimate foundational problem and that is the fiat fractional reserve print money from nothing system. This system takes away nearly all negotiating leverage from the individual and HEAVILY tips the scale to large institutions (big banks, big business, big Gov). A hard money with a max limit of units would fix this....along with many other problems. Dig deeper and follow the incentives of money systems and you will see why some people say 'fix the money, fix the world'

[@waynegoodfellow9852]

Natalie Brunell is a great interviewer asking great questions. I have a question for Grant Williams. Since currency debasement or inflation is a form of legalized theft, how much wealth has been stolen from honest producers/workers since the formation of the Fed in 1913? In 1913, an ounce of gold cost about $20. Today, an ounce of gold cist over $2000 US dollars. This means that ~99% of our dollars have been stolen over the last century. The magnitude of stolen wealth is staggering and difficult but not impossible to calculate. Central bank money creation and fractional reserve banking is pure and simple theft.

[@ktownkryptoking]

🥰😍💐

[@knowledgeincrease3326]

Dont forget to hit the 👍 botton 😊 Great interview Natalie.

[@yep3410]

x

[@knowledgeincrease3326]

There's a reason why it's called FIAT CURRENCY...😂😂😂

[@scepisle4970]

Sad he doesn't take the time to understand Bitcoin....... shiny rocks are not the way of the future... 😊

[@Nonduality]

I like Canadian Bitcoin onramps because Canadians depend on the government and there's trust associated with that dependence including trust in the Canadian dollar. So Bitcoin is under the radar in Canada. Unless I've missed something, I don't see government resistance against Bitcoin. In fact, they approved Bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs 3 or 4 years ago and they trade on relatively low volume.

[@fotipitrakkos1193]

And to the point of shoddy incentives. Elon Musk put in literal triggers to get his pay increase based on improving the company... And that is the one case that gets sued. It's not just bad incentives. It's actively punishing an attempt to put good incentives in place.

[@donTeo136]

I think he is just a guy with a lot of money and doesnt need alpha , and into conservation of capital in the form he knows. It's kind of a laziness of the very sucessful. And he's probobly correct : if fiat goes to zero gold wont.

[@heavymetalenthusiast4231]

The most beautiful woman in the world ! Legend ! Period !

[@ocox8659]

Agreed 👍

[@END-THE-FED]

Well the value comes partly from its scarcity but also it’s ease of storage and it’s privacy. The black market will embrace the market. By black market, I mean lightning peer-to-peer like cash. No tax.

[@hayleylewis1458]

Gold demonetised Silver, and Bitcoin will demonetise Gold!

[@philfortner1805]

Classic boomer! Rocks are great investments in an all digital world. Get your ox carts today!

[@lbar97]

Old people are always stuck in time.. lol Sad

[@dtb7872]

This guy sharing incorrect gold vs sp500 charts... gold has NOT outperformed the sp500 index.. not sure why he's lying to us and himself.

[@BitcoinAndChess]

Natalie was on the right track when she asked him how gold performed in an inflationary environment. He had to preface his answer, knowing that 660% return was cherry-picked from gold's absolute low, and then he failed to mention that CAGR chart of his is not in in real, inflation-adjusted terms. Grant is disingenuous. Then he goes on to talk about the "challenges" of Bitcoin becoming accepted while forgetting everything he brings up applies exactly the same way for gold, and even moreso!

[@postscript123]

Ok girlfriend. Goodluck with that.

[@billfrenger8955]

Thank you Natalie. Perhaps Wall Street ETF's are allowed because the Government can exert Control on them and $Profit$ from them? Perhaps the Government will naturally focus upon stamping out or co-opting Decentralized Bitcoin?

[@davidgarrett7673]

hes not too smart

[@mkaberli614]

Why don't you tell us about your financial accomplishments? Let us make that determination.

[@robertnakat4662]

Come back in 2026 and tell me where all other assets are in relation to GOLD. BITCOIN, is basically a stock market asset, the shell game will come to an end and the super rich and central banks are loading totally suppressed precious metals at bargain basement prices.

[@chrismale9976]

Same with all these fund guys... bitcoin finishes their business model. Dr Jeff Ross is the honest one out of them all

[@lucaskok]

You will lose 15-20% from spot taking gold down to the market in Singapore to exchange for cash!!!

[@ToneGuruLA]

If you go back to 2000.... bahahaha... I did buy gold in 2000. Still.... I ain't fool enough to use 2000 as the guide point to measure golds performance. That is cherry picking at a galactic level. Good grief! Until this I had respect for Grant and his take... this reply erases all respect.

[@NeuroPulse]

Listening to Grant makes me think of that meme where he turns into a dried up husk. Same old story I heard in 2016 when I discovered... gold... (cringe). Glad I learned to think for myself and have made tons of money instead of: none. This whole "reality will reassert itself" (meaning DEFLATION) is so absurd. Has he studied the Weimar Republic? Has he studied our monetary system? Has he been paying attention to the response to any crisis this century? Maybe he's just a fat cat sitting on a lot of gold who has forgotten what it's like to have nothing and want to make it.

[@LClarke]

On Moscow's unprovoked invasion, attack, and ongoing war against Ukraine: _"Some people did something."_ -Grant Williams

[@ocox8659]

Where do you get “unprovoked”? Has your head been buried in the sand since the 1990s? 🤦‍♂️

[@BitcoinBoomer64]

Great conversation and as a #BitcoinBoomer and #HODLer, he really made a great case for diversification in #Bitcoin and Gold. I think the 2 assets compliment one another and when the government 💩 hits the fan I think it will be important to own both.

[@jksmithiii]

Right, if you kill the asset rails, you kill the demand for the asset, regardless of asset supply. This does concern me about BTC. So if the asset has its own rails and also fixed supply, why would I want to own the asset? No point in buying something if you have no incentive to sell it. Confusing.

[@joecantno8698]

Too many comercials

[@jgnmtz]

He sounds like a product of capitalism 101 . IMO, what’s different about now is consumers have seen easy credit for decades. They’ve gotten addicted to 0% offers and promises of big houses in fancy neighborhoods with a new car every year . Nobody can afford that . But advertisers beat us to death with this ‘fk the jones! Buy a Bentley ‘ attitude on the tele. The solution is teaching kids financial responsibility and saving for crisis starting in middle school . Exposing the marketing world for what it is , quicksand for anyone hoping to retire in their lifetime . The U.S. economy is like a worn out prostitute they dress up and parade around as a young and talented princess , but when you undress her , she’s used up, blown out and aging like a broken down ford Taurus .