Viewer Question: Who is Warhammer 40,000 currently being made for?

[@GreyHunter88]

My biggest concern with this current state is that it is distancing itself from what makes 40k unique in the first place. Even my friends who quit the game 15 years ago still love when I show them the new models and lore, and they still get excited when they see my newly painted stuff. Meanwhile, 80% of the people I actively play with don't really care about the competitive scene, and just want to try cool scenarios or campaigns as we unwind after a shitty work week. If GW becomes just 'a gaming exercise', it has 10,000 other competitors in that space (video games, for example). As a hobby, it's a much bigger fish in a smaller pond.

[@theunrelentingbrush]

Couldn't agree more, Ash. You ask almost all hobbyists of our generations where it all started with them. 9/10 it was in a GW store getting introd and getting a starter set and going from there, and remembering it very fondly! With a lot of hobbyists of all ages discovering the hobby through content creators, competitive outlets, second hand stores, online resellers.... It's gonna be interesting to see how the ship steers these seas of the future.

[@khristienpennanen1810]

God remember like 8th edition before they went fucking psycho with command points. Miss that

[@larrywagner1432]

Absolutely agree. A coworker and I were talking about just this a few weeks ago. It feels like people who like competitive play are being hired, probably because they are the most vocal, and then as you say talking to the same people. So we have ended up with an inbreeding of ideas within the rules set. Couple that with a profit focused business model, you have a set up for the place we have today.

[@theandf]

You're probably right! I always thought tournament/meta-obsessed gamers are simply a very vocal minority, with most people never attending a tournament at all. On the other hand, this opens up possibilities for all the indie (and semi-indie) games that do cater to narrative people and "young at heart" gamers. Even using GW's minis and their own 40K setting.

[@wlfhi]

Agreed. The hyper-focus on the competitive scene is one of the primary factors that have driven me away from most of GW’s games. 30k, MESBG, and Necromunda are still attractive communities, but it’s a shame their flagship games are being treated in such a fashion.

[@captainparty]

I wonder how much of this was an over correction from AoS, where some of the older designers were blindsided by the reaction to the lack of points because they most regularly played games against each other were balanced games wasn’t a huge consideration?

[@BarronFamily231]

40k has become the wargame equivalent to one of those really expensive foreign cars that spend half their time the shop.

[@captainparty]

I can’t imagine the dispiriting impact on a young hobbyist at a local Warhammer store, learning to play on a Sunday and then going to a local hobby group and being told to read a 36 page document that changes fundamental core rules of the edition to be able to play because the rest of the “community” are trained to use Matched play rules as a default.

[@captainferrite]

Not to mention that nobody will play a game below tournament standard size with them.

[@LiamDempsey40k]

So spot on.

[@slovotsky]

well said

[@HeadCannonPrime]

I honestly think the biggest upcoming audience is when people of our age retire (ash is about my age). Disposable income is shrinking with younger gens along with interest in games in general.

[@fenreer01]

I dropped out in 2002. Raised a kid, worked 70 hours+ a week, broke my body and health to provide for my family, and rejoined the hobby in 2021. I don't recognize it anymore, for the most part. I can't get into the mindset the twenties to mid-thirties wargamers possess. It's not a welcoming community in the way it used to be, back when we had Mordheim, 6th edition Fantasy, and Armadgeddon-era 40k.

[@justinrisen1929]

100% agreed. Thankfully for myself at least its not an issue as i have zero interest in the competitive meta or game mechanics as a whole really. Sure i play here and there with mates for the fun of it but would much rather model and paint the miniatures and share that with said mates to learn from eachother and grow in skill and inspiration. The hobby side is my gig not the gaming.

[@lkmdude8094]

Im a little bit younger than most in the hobby and i got into it due to content creators. When i was in middle and high school it was miniwargaming narrative campaigns, and nowadays it seems like a common onramp is stuff from people like bricky and lutein. I probably consume more competitive content nowadays, but that doesn't bring people into the hobby.

[@Christian_from_Copenhagen]

My cousin is playing in the AoS World Championship as we speak, and he agreed with me recently that the competitive focus is bad for the community. It's a slow hobby that rewards care and attention, but metachasing drives sales, so here we are. The huge objective markers and lack of "immersion" is what keeps me away from competitive play, personally.

[@hansyolo8277]

We've seen it happen with a TON of multiplayer games... the game turns to shit when you start designing it FOR competitive players, and not designing it for normal people and THEN adding in a competitive option. It just turns it to shit. A game designed for normal people can support both normal players and competitive players. A game designed for competitive players can only really support competitive players, because the normal ones get screwed over.

[@yagsipcc287]

As someone who has been in and out of the hobby since i was 10 or so, i am 33 now. GW does not listen to anyone but themselves just like you said. Most people do not play competitive they play casually tbh this amount many other reaosns is why inuse other systems.

[@Mkrause762]

I’m new to 40k and I have negative interest in competitive games literally nothing sounds less appealing

[@wombatgirl997]

I remember back when the general community consensus was that GW being too casual and not focusing on competitive rules was what was killing the game. Crazy how times change...

[@EvilBearWargames]

share holders

[@A_Random_Commenter]

That is my main dislike locally that keeps me from playing, the local group is always practicing with their meta list for the monthly tournament, nobody just plays for fun.

[@Mittens_Gaming]

I would rather see rules come out that are good for 6 years (as they were in the past), and maybe have tournament scene supported tournament packs. Like if you want stuff in "legends" for your tournament, put that in your tournament pack, without say, making leviathan dreadnaughts no longer playable in competitive events.

[@uniteallaction]

100% spot on.

[@lupercal1984]

I'm a 40 year old gamer who has been into 40K since 3rd edition and for the first time in more than two decades I have walked away from GW for awhile. I use my minis in other games right now like One Page Rules.

[@map7521]

It's made for lifers and newbies. Been that way for a long time.

[@cjwestphal397]

Yes. Wargaming is turning too much into a competitive tournament scene, over a jovial, casual shared experience. Any time a new ruleset for wargames comes out, sometimes it feels like the metric is automatically, "yeah, it's cool...but it is balanced competitively?" And when games are not, it's often an unfair strike against them.

[@mrdelaney4440]

Is there a longer version of this?

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Yeah just click the link of what it’s remixed from at the bottom!

[@mrdelaney4440]

​@@GuerrillaMiniatureGamesbrilliant thank you.

[@WardudeProxies]

Yes, the focus is too much into the competition scene. The game needs evolve into introducing new players, by making the rules and game flow better as well as focus on new interesting story scenarios that have more of an emphasis on the narrative of the game. Which is the most unique and glorious part of the hobby.

[@RoboticDragon]

I agree.

[@peppermintshore]

Well said. GW needs to look at the history of Warmachine and learn lessons from privateer press mistakes where the doubled down on the Tournament scene. The game started to die a horrible death and is only starting to show some promise again after 15+ yrs of being an almost dead system Also doesnt help that Batreps by many new content creators are all streams and generally aimed at the competitive scene. Batreps that are narrative and edited before release from the likes of yourself, Tabletop Tactics and Winter SEO seem to be a dying breed.

[@wombatgirl997]

If I may be frank it is all about effort. Back when I was a kid I remember people who had little personal websites where they had written battle report records. Their armies all had fluff and backstory and they spent time writing a considerable amount of text and taking a bunch of pictures (sometimes with horrible MS Paint explosions added in) to show what happened. This was done for maybe a few thousand people based on the visitor counter at the bottom of the website. Then KZbin happened and people could film a battle and not have to write anymore, they could just say what they were doing and chop the video up to cut out the boring bits. Then streaming happened and people realized they don't even have to edit the video anymore.

[@peppermintshore]

@@wombatgirl997 totally agree. Loved a written battle report from way back in 2nd edition. Ive tried watching streamed vids and they just bore the pants off me. 3-4 hours to watch the presenters beg for money. And people paying to get a comment and 10 seconds of fame. Not my cup of tea.

[@andrewdavies6355]

There are no pocket money purchases in GW now. I used to go and buy a marine or two in a blister to grow my collection. A blister now is usually a character and is seventy (NZ) bucks. A single unit is a hundred bucks. Kids don’t have that kind of money. They are at risk of doing a Hornby.

[@cjwestphal397]

Ugh, I hear that. What got me into 40K when I was a kid was the ability to buy blisters of models for $15US or less. Imagine kids nowadays being told that it used to be fun to "splurge" $10US on a character and paint them up. Now it's at least three times that much.

[@WhiteWolfe101]

That's why I'm no longer playing 40k....

[@5p3cu10]

That was a Jordan Peterson way of saying "competitive" players. 😂❤

[@Stereo_mike]

40K has gotten progressively less interesting since 8th. There are not enough limiting factors or difficult decisions. 10th has gone way too far from the game I love

[@someirishguy1662]

If you look to the most remembered games and systems they have made, they arent balanced, Mordheim wasnt well made but it had passion and good ideas

[@icewolffinc]

For people that have shitload of money !!

[@SoloBluePrints]

I don’t see why the younger generation would need GW. Resin printers are now cheaper than any 40k army. Other games are far cheaper and easier to start play (maybe even more fun to play)

[@veilofdarkness000]

I've been saying it for years but it's funny to see it all now. It's all one big circle jerk of people lying to themselves thinking Warhammer is a competitive game. A game where a person can just roll more dice than their opponent is not competitive in the least.

[@davidthrift7593]

Simple solution is to just play Necromunda instaed LOL

[@MadMax-el2el]

I am a competitive gamer, I hit cons and tournaments two or three times a month. 40k, is not a competitive game. Never has been, never should be treated like one. It fundamentally lacks the game balance and army support to be honestly played competitively. End of an edition when everyone has everything, the edition patches are all done, possibly look at playing it competitively then. But the non competitive game/development space of 40k is a good thing, Beer and pretzel gaming is great for community and long term game/hobby health. With that said, you can still bring a healthy competitive mindset to the table, but it's not the mindset most of you have seen, me explain. If you want the secret to playing high level competitive games... it is this. playing the cleanest game you possibly can, which means no measuring errors, placement errors, no rules errors No gotchas No cheating Use the right tools, ie, precision measuring widgets Writing things down as they happen and keeping track of the board state, take pictures if you want more documentation Etc... Do anything and everything in your power to remove error and ambiguity. high level competitive is not about winning, that just comes with experience and time. High level competitive play is about faction/army mastery and playing clean. The goal is to out play your opponent, out think them and give them the best possible game experience they have had that day. the wins are just a bonus. You can call that sportsmanship if you want, but breaking it down, seems to get the message through people's skulls better. Hopefully making them worthy of the skull throne. Also... Even if everything is going wrong for you, it is your responsibility to ensure your opponent walks away feeling like it was a good game and you were a good opponent. If you cannot do this, don't show up, stay home and get right with yourself. Don't drag everyone else down because of your bad day. If you want games that diminish your room for error. Look at at chess. If you want asymmetrical competitive look at godtear. You want creative control look at magic.

[@RoboticDragon]

Yeah, but the game is more and more being focused on the competitive side rules wise.

[@charnel_channel]

IMO competitive play hurts wargames more than it promotes them. I think wargames are not meant for "ranked" play. You certainly can play this way, but most of the games are too loose and ambiguous by nature to be competitive by default. There's no objectively "right" way to enjoy the hobby, but I'd say that most people don't play wargames to "git gud". After all, making OP lists and rolling dice well is one of the most useless skills in life. We play wargames for the stories, the challenge and the social aspect, rules are just giving us the common denominator.

[@robnoel9306]

For the whales.

[@andreasell1830]

I hate this edition and the trend honestly, my two cent of course. I think they can do moore efforts for Better Rulebooks.

[@DeusMachina71]

I'm not happy at all the direction GW has taken the game and so I either OldHammer older editions or play OPR.. I now 3d print and buy very little from GW. Best of luck to them because it's not just the rules that have gone downhill but the lore itself is becoming trash.

[@klo45pl]

Man. Ppl are sooo close to figuring out that 40k is a garbage game.

[@salperez50]

Correct, this next generation of 40k players are turning the hobby into a video game. A tabletop COD to only Compete.

[@drathlor]

I hate the competitiveness of the new games... Its Brother, what is that???...

[@trojanhatchet8204]

40k is garbage

[@yuliydubovyk3080]

The target audience is middle/upper middle class single men in North America and Western (politically, not geographically) Europe from early 30s to late 40s. It's not a game for young people, and GW generally makes a terrible job with women outreach, so they locked themselses out of many demographics.

[@redscope897]

40k is the most sucessful game in the world by a long way. The number of people who play the game at competition level is at best 5%. The view through the lens of social media is not the reality we see up and down countries people playing day in and out. They would not be the biggest game company in the world if they did not target their customers correctly.

[@HeadCannonPrime]

Most successful *miniatures* game in the world.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

It absolutely is. But like with all things, it comes in waves. Every ten years or so a new generation is being developed and becomes the primary purchasing majority. My position is, if the product is being designed for the CURRENT purchasing majority, and the marketing predominantly focused on them, what happens in ten years when it being on such a high shelf has recruited a much smaller wave of maturing hobbyists? If today it’s the biggest game in the world then that’s because ten years ago they did an excellent job creating customers. What will that look like ten years from now? It takes time to become an established tabletop hobbyist and especially one that can fully embrace a game with the model count and dollar expenditure of a GW Matched Play game. If there aren’t new ones coming in, there’s always a group that’s naturally no longer spending money (has completed their collection, loses interest, family and money priorities outside hobbies).

[@redscope897]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames What do you base this on ? The GW sales are growing at a vast rate in one year during lockdown sales grow 35% last year 12%. The hobby is expanding at a rate GW cannot keep up with. The biggest customer group gw sell to in its stores are mothers buying kids presents. The numbers do not bear out any suggestion in the last 10 years they have been unable to increase the player bases. The use of license in games like total war, the TV shows. The hobby is becoming more main stream than ever. We have famous actors talking about how they play the game. The reality for GW is everything is pointing in a positive direction. It might not be one you personally like. However no other company in the table top area is making the advance they have even in the areas you mention. We have seen warmachine on its last legs, two star wars products die a death because they failed to deliver what the customer wanted. We can say a lot about GW but they have hit all the points with customer to increase sales and grow the hobby market. They make the stuff people want to buy. It does not matter if the older generations are switching off because 10 new people are coming into the hobby to play GW to replace them. As long as that is the case why would GW want to change it?

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

@@redscope897 I’m basing it on those very same reports. Linear sales growth has been achieved the last decade through a massive shift in their production and distribution model as well as a steady increase in the base cost model for entry into the hobby, as well as an increase in the ‘general game size’ the consumer is marketed to play. What was once a monthly release schedule with production focused on maintaining a core product line has gone to weekly releases, with multiple week pre orders to manage the flow of stock through their own sales channels. They have also reduced available stock to outside outlets in order to drive sales into their own web ecosystem and allowed a ‘queue skipping’ system for their store web terminals to encourage those to become warehouse pickup points. They’ve also diversified their product mix to rebrand the same models and sell them several times under different banners (examples Kill Team, Warcry or Quest games producing miniatures that can be reboxed as additional releases). On top of that, they have moved their outside sales model and trade support from a growth model to an outlet model. Ask any Independent retailer that’s over fifteen years old the differences in the module or best sellers range that was previous sold and stock-checked and the new Google-doc and maybe-you-get-the-product delivery system. Its a VERY different sales model than it was twenty years ago and while it definitely delivers linear like for like growth it has put their products on a much higher introductory shelf than at any point in the company’s history. Not just for the individual hobbyist but for the independent retailer too. An opening order with GW has almost tripled in the last decade in cost and is far less curated and managed than it once was. It also puts a huge amount of pressure on them to maintain this ‘always have something new’ cycle to drive sales and perpetuates the ‘disposable’ book releases and three year range-refreshes which is very out of sync with the pace consumers actually build paint and play with hobby products. Finally there’s the marketing itself; the pace of releases and change inside the ecosystem of the customer has never had a higher pace. I don’t know if we’ll understand the impact on retention of new customers in that regard for at least a decade. As someone that was in sales inside GW for almost fifteen years, it’s a wildly different model than the one previously used. I’ll be very interested to see how it works out. Honestly; if they’re simply wanting to transition into a brand management company then it doesn’t matter… but the original shape of the business will likely be very different. Annual reports delivering profit and growth aren’t the whole story, HOW that is being done is very important too.

[@redscope897]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames For table top hobby shop the weekly releases are the lifeblood for a store. 70% of the retail sales for a typical hobby store is from GW products alone. Gaming stores are not being kept running by Starwars legion releasing a single box of minis once every 3 months. They are the only hobby company able to retain retails stores but are still expanding them. This in a retail enviornment in which we have seen a vast decline on the high street. It is mind blowing how they are able to retain supporting those pyhsical stores. The reason for the sucess is because it is not same as it was 20 years ago. The companies that have not moved on that dont change with the times are the ones going out of business. Nobody likes change but we cannot say it does not work when the sales are though the roof. They opened a new factory less than 2 years ago designed at the time to support production until 2027. They already blew past that last year they cannot make the products fast enough to sell. They are already planning to open a new factory in the next 5 years. The real problem is we are all getting old. We dont like change we want to keep things we why we know and like. We start to create this fantasy things are not going well with the company because we want to go back to the way it was. That is just getting old. That is not the reality no matter how we disgree with a certainly GW policy if it is making a success for the company it is working. The most damning measure of this is how little progress other companies are making into GW market. How many other companies copy GW methods and products. Look at contrast paints. Following GW every single hobby paint company in the world paniced to rush out a copy cat product. Look at all the paint ranges that market how close the colour is to GW products. You have one page rules are a just a complete rip off of GW products. You know you are doing well in business when everyone is trying to copy you. If GW are getting this wrong why is it no other hobby company in the world doing what you believe is right and making a sucess from it ? If their is a gap in the market they are missing logically someone would move in to fill it ? On cost can we stop with this people cannot afford it. People in this hobby have a vast spending power. We have people that buy titan models that cost well over 1,000. the same people who say it is so expensive are the same ones who ones 1,000 plus models in their collection. Lets be honest the demographic of people in this hobby are not short of money. In a world in which everyone is walking about 1,000 dollar iphone dont tell me people cannot afford warhammer models.