Tumbling .38's! Old School .38 Super-Police VS Fort Scott Tui

Testing out the old .38 Special Super-Police rounds VS the Fort Scott TUI rounds in a ballistic gel test. The Super-Police round uses a cast .35 Remington bullet and is designed to tumble upon impact. The Fort Scott TUI (tumble upon impact) is also designed to do this, hence their moniker "TUI". Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221

[@GunSam]

Lead Bullets 4 Life kzbin.info , also the TUI was donated by Marc C. a couple of years ago.

[@oldcop18]

Back in the early ‘70s another officer & I were chasing two rape suspects across a football field, one guy running in front of the other w/us right behind. The other cop fired one shot from about 10 yards and dropped both men. Our issued guns were 4” Model 15 S&W w/158 grain lead round nose rounds. He, unknown to me or anyone else, loaded his own 200 grain rounds to a higher velocity and your video reminded me of this old story. I believe that cop faced some minor admin charge for using unauthorized ammo, but it worked. The suspects both lived to do a long stretch in state prison.

[@GunSam]

Sounds exactly right. Once they get some speed above my loads, they will just go through a lot of material in a straight line. What a story though, the high capacity 9mm fanboys hearing that one shot from a .38 dropped two bad guys would have a fit lol

[@leadbullets4life]

i was hoping an old school police officer would see this episode and make an honest comment based on experience, thank you for that bit of actual info.

[@shadowwolf2524]

I normally use the 158 gr LRN as my carry round in my 38's. In 2 inch and 4 inch gums. I've got many different weights and styles of bullets. I just always go back to the old, sometimes hated 158 LRN. I believe bullet placement imich more important than caliber or style. And I just don't fall for the"bullet of the week" that cost over a $1 each. I know you have been in some shoot outs. What is your opinion of the 158gr LRN? I do respect your opinions on this subject. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience.

[@oldcop18]

@@shadowwolf2524 I used this old round nose load in two of my confrontations. In one instance it dropped the suspect w/one shot but in the second, not so much. My take away, aside from me being very lucky, is shot placement is king. In a real confrontation you could miss b/c you’re shooting in a panic, but I still believe hollow points are better b/c they reduce the chances of danger to bystanders (e.g., over penetration, the real reason LE stopped using the old round nose bullets). I keep my 340PD loaded w/Remington HTP 110 grain +P HP b/c: They’re easy to control in a light gun, they’re affordable, come in a 50 round box AND there are no absolutes in a gunfight. Some of these wiz-bang rounds are just a way to get more $$ out of us. Hope that helps, stay safe.

[@shadowwolf2524]

@@oldcop18 Thanks for the response. I was raised on a farm in the 70's. It was my job to dispatch the various varmints and critters that came around and were a danger to our livestock. I used both hollow point and non-hollow point pistol ammo for this job. I noticed when using the HP's (including 38), they had very shallow penetration. Much more shallow than advertised. The non-point ammo went much deeper, put didn't go through and through too often. And I did learn,very quickly, that shot placement was the important factor. Both types worked if I hit right. A bad hit with any caliber,of any type of round, had almost no affect sometimes. I've always went back and forth with what type of round I load up with. I'm glad you survived your encounters. I do appreciate talking with you and others who have "seen the elephant". Real life encounters mean more to me than watching bullets flower out in gel. I was in 1 encounter at the age of 18 in which I exchanged gunfire with a guy. He had a 38-4 inch 38 and I had a 6 inch barrel 22 Ruger auto. He fired 1st- hitting my friend who was driving. I fired 8 rounds, very quickly right after. I did fire over him and his buddies head on purpose. The ran off. It all happened,very unexpectely and very quickly. End result, my friend was grazed in his arm,the bullet missed me by about a foot. We found the bullet in his Bronco the next day. It was a 158 gr LRN. I don't believe I got either one of them. But I was aiming over them. It seems they had a grudge against my friend,over a radio deal that went bad. This happened many years ago. In a small rural town. No one called law enforcement. It just wasn't done very often back then. They never did bother us again.

[@SuperSneakySteve]

I really love the versatility of the .38 special. One of the best cartridges ever made.

[@Fudmottin]

If you hand load, you can do some interesting things with it. My experiments are only launched from a 357 Magnum. 38 Short Colt and Long Colt can also be made to do fun things at 9mm Lugar pressures.

[@shadowwolf2524]

I agree. I've carried several 38s over the years. I've currently got 3. My S& W 642 is my "always gun". It goes everywhere I go. I favor 38 Snubbies over 380's. I've seen too many of the small auto's fail. I believe the 38 revolver is very underated. I usually load up with the heavy 158 gr loads. But I've got everything from the lite 90 gr to 158's in my ammo cans. The 38's can eat all of them with no problems.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

@@shadowwolf2524 Viva le Revolver! Most reliable

[@john-paulsilke893]

My 327 TRR8 is dripping with red dots and lights and has a a amazing trigger. But my much older and beat up 686-2 it truly sublime. I have silhouette sighs on it and a barrel weight for popping bowling pins. With mid range .38’s it recoils less then my 617 shooting CCI Standrd or Remington Bucket of garbage, (the price is right so I definitely like them).

[@shadowwolf2524]

@@nathanlambshead4778 Roger that. I've got several autos. But my 642 and my 90's area Rossi stainless snub seem to be the guns I grab to carry. And my new Rock Island 4 inch barrel 38 revolver is the gun I keep closest to me on my nightstand. A 38 revolver is simple to use and reliable. The 1st house gun I bought when I 1st got married, years ago, was an FIE 38 snub. But my wife quickly took it over. So, I bought a S&W model 10-4inch heavy barrel for me. It was dang near mint condition, with a Bianchi leather shoulder holster. Got it from a buddy for $125! Dang,I wish I would have kept that one. My wife has always favored 38's. 2,3 and 4 inch versions. She has only recently switched to a GLOCK 19-9mm. I've got to stop showing her my new guns! Lol.

[@ludecom-cz1wz]

The old 38spl will never die. Thanks for another groovy in a far out happening kind of way video.

[@benjimenfranklin7650]

The 200 grain bullet is a very old good idea.🔥British Army initial specifications submitted to ammunition manufacturers for the .38/200 military loading were as follows: Cartridge: .38 S&W (.38-200)Bullet: (Mk I) 200 grain, lead alloy, lubricatedMuzzle velocity: 625 ft/s (191 m/s) (+ or - 25 ft/s (7.6 m/s)) from 4-inch (102 mm) barrel.Chamber pressure: 13,000 PSI (Max.)

[@73North265]

Agreed - I remember getting into an argument online with some guy who insisted that the British were stupid for not simply adopting .38spl in the inter-war years and only did it because they were being stubborn and didn’t want to use a ‘foreign’ weapon or ammo (in spite of me listing loads of foreign materiel that the British adopted and noting that this round was also used in the US too). It clearly suited their needs for service all around the world for providing a low recoil round for people who didn’t already have a big handgun-shooting culture (there was a big pistol shooting scene in the UK prior to WW1 but for reasons too long to go into here it stopped after the war) and weren’t going to be given much practice during service. Clearly the round got the job done as shown here (and in the extensive military testing at the time).

[@benjimenfranklin7650]

@@73North265 back in 1938 my grandfather was a police officer and they had a 38 long Colt that was 200 grain. I still have a few. Not really meant for long range but up close they can deliver a wallop .

[@73North265]

@@benjimenfranklin7650 I have heard that .38spl had some teething issues in its early day and so things like .38-200/super police load were developed. Of course .38spl became the standard but we have the benefit of hindsight and modern science e hydrostatic shock etc. But a big slug of lead at close range, as you say, will a big wallop

[@benjimenfranklin7650]

@@73North265 They work very well. I have first hand experience with the 38/200 . I shot a deer from a deer stand and dropped it right under the tree.

[@filianablanxart8305]

@@73North265 Not really on the sequence . Circa 1899 , the .38 spl came out exactly as intended . A .38 cal ( .357/8) RN , with the power kicked one notch above .38 Long Colt or .38 S&W , and it was . ( And compressed Black Powder in balloon head cases gave +/- 900fps from the 6 or 6.5in bbls common then , ) The British concieved of the .38/ 200 using incorrect reasoning , but despite that , it came out * interesting * . ( By WWII , the issue load had evolved into 178gr pointy FMJ .) Meanwhile US ammo mfg had been following , if not assisting the British development . The idea was in front of them with the R&D done , so why not try to stir up some domestic business . Thus , the Super Police ! ( First Winchester , later Remington , probably others , and heavily promoted to the LE market , both in .38 Spl and .38 S&W , at same advertised velocities . Used by buncha PD's , got put to intended use shortly . And when it tumbled (usually) it worked better than 158 RNL . The downside - Poor Barrier Penetration . Would bounce off car bodies and windshields .

[@leadbullets4life]

Sam i noticed every time you shoot those super police loads you always have a smile on your face and it makes me smile.. its contagious.

[@GunSam]

There's something special about them. I think it's because they are in a sense perfect. Cheap, easy, 100% matches what a hollow point will do, shoots good and quiet. Not much to dislike.

[@leadbullets4life]

@@GunSam i couldn't said it better.

[@Fudmottin]

@@leadbullets4life I like the concept of those slugs too. Although I wonder if a flat point would be better along with a few more fps. Perhaps softer lead as well.

[@leadbullets4life]

@@Fudmottin: with original load it was a very soft lead because it didn't have to be fast... so slow and soft was the name of the game, flat points would act like a soft point or s.w.c, thou it would still tumble but the long round nose would cause the yaw much sooner and since it was to be used in a soft target keeping the penetration low was key to effective stopping power, as Sam demonstrated the bullets had actually bowed due the lead being a bit softer than hard cast so there was quite a bit of energy dump based on the bullets condition to bend as it did.

[@Fudmottin]

@@leadbullets4life I sure wouldn't want to be shot with one either way. Obviously. I was thinking maybe it could be made a tad more effective.

[@petergrant9259]

Midway actually had 158 lead nose Federal 38 specials with no limit....things are looking up.

[@GunSam]

Yeah I frequent a few stores and about a dozen online sites. The common stuff is coming back, won't be long until they can start adding the weird stuff to the mix like .44 Special and the like.

[@danoneill2846]

@15:00 I think 45 acp & 44 Special are about the most power that won't blow your ears out . 357 , 44 mag , & other high speed , large blast rounds are hard on the ears .

[@63DW89A]

The 45 Colt, at only 14,000 psi, can easily get a 200 gr bullet to about 1100 fps from a 4-5" revolver barrel. In either soft lead hollow point, or hard cast full wadcutter, that would be a round of incredible destructiveness at close range.

[@JugglesGrenades]

I have carried a 1911 in .45acp, summer and winter since 1978. (With a short time with a CZ in 9mm) But since starting to watch your videos, have started carrying a Taurus 605 snub nose and two speedloaders for the summer. After decades of having 2pounds of steel on my hip, I actually forget the snubbie is there.

[@therighttoolcompany868]

I have Police officer friends here in Indiana and they only carry Fort Scott. There are different weights of the bullets. So you can determine the amount of penetration you want. The main advantage is that they can and do go through hard bearers. They will go through car windshields. Heaven clothing and not get clogged up. Car doors home doors. More and more police officers are using them. Police records are showing great results with stopping power and no problems with pass throughs. They are the only rounds I use in my daily carry. There 5.56 are also becoming popular with police officers. The ability to go through car panels and not tumble until they hit soften tissue is very effective. Good video look forward to all you new stuff.

[@tomcarr4630]

I had never heard of these. Fantastic presentation!

[@GunSam]

Thanks a lot!

[@quickhandluke.387]

I used to look down on .38s until I actually dived into it and this has really made me realize that this round is versatile as heck. Your vids are great sam and I learn a lot from em, thx.

[@honorb4glory606]

I appreciate your calm, and casual, yet analytical and unbiased approach. +1 sub

[@dangerman007]

Thanks for testing the Super Police. Nice to see they performed decent. The thinking back then was sound: a heavy bullet to thump and let momentum do the rest.

[@michigunsanta8680]

Thanx for testing that Fort Scott, I picked up a lot of that Spring of 2020 in various calibers when all the common brands dried up. I had no idea the fps was so high.👍🏻

[@sporkstar1911]

Paul Harrell says these TUI bullet types are actually downlow designed to be Vest Busters (AP vs woven armor)... he says it has inconsistent performance at tumbling but easily punches a vest.

[@jasonvoorhees2701]

I've shot hams and water jugs for me they have been consistent in penetration and wound channels ...

[@SaintBrianTheGodless]

I've seen Paul's presentation but also many additional tests with them on class 3 vests, they're way too inconsistent at penetrating them to ever count on.

[@ludecom-cz1wz]

I'm going to have to find that video, Paul is a groovy in a far out happening kind of way dude.

[@MrBuckeye63]

I lean toward the Super Police … damage no pass through.. even if it just awls because of their length it would cause damage… would be good for home defense…

[@TheJurgisRud]

Thanks for this Sam. I just acquired a new S&W 360PD J-Frame and I've been considering these Super Police type loads for carry.

[@tonystark-ey5gj]

with all the guns i have, still love 38sp + p, total confidence, stop, drop, no roll, great videos, god bless.

[@ratagris21]

Thanks for testing these two unique rounds Sam. Excellent presentation. 🎩☯️♠️

[@GunSam]

Thanks! It's always fun to pull some stuff of that the tacticool crowd is like "huh?" to.

[@ratagris21]

@@GunSam good idea as it keeps the crowd's attention.

[@joshuagibson2520]

This was a cool vid. I enjoyed it. Ballistics are fun. I see too many people not enjoying what's happening and bitching about results or saying one isn't good enough. It's not always about winner and loser. Sometimes it's just about the science and or fun.

[@GunSam]

That really is why I do it, very fun. If I wanted to be boring I would say you need a full size 9mm and HST+P, do one test and call it. While that round might work, it's just no fun.

[@Gieszkanne]

VERY interesting! Nice that you tried the Super Police without and i am supprised. I once only tried .22 from a pistol without earprotection and that already hurt a bit so I never tried anything bigger. But Super Police have even lower pressure than the .22 i guess so it do less harm. It also has low recoil and perfect penetration while tumbling. Very nice round actually. Old but gold.

[@AA-yx2kf]

Great video as always!

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@lonewolf1064]

Really enjoy your videos im also partial to the .38 special for self-defense carry. But my favorite cartridge is .44 mag. Keep up the good work.

[@celowski6296]

Good info downstate neighbor.... I may have to get a mold . I have about 100lbs of range lead. Really cool watching the bullets ricochet off the steel. Your vids are always entertaining..

[@GunSam]

Thanks. I believe it's a Lyman mold. If I am not mistaken it's the "Lyman .358 Bullet Mould 204 Grain 35 Caliber RN GC 2 Cavity Mold 358315", but Angelo from lead bullet for life would know, I had pinned his channel.

[@joshuabriggs7114]

Old School for the Win! Great video: )

[@beanalog8202]

Very interesting video for sure. That's why I keep coming back 😁

[@trime1851]

Very interesting experiment! Since I do not reload, I stay with "mainstream" factory ammo. Winchester 38 special +P 130 grain works just fine in my S&W 38 Special Scandium J Frame! Beats throwing rocks! 😊

[@CeltKnight]

I love old-school (VERY old-school) rounds that work based on something other than expansion. Don't get me wrong, I love modern ammo, too, but "back in the day" ammo that actually worked is awesome. Personally, after this, I wouldn't mind having me some .38 Spl Super Police rounds on hand for home defense. As I have said so many times, it's 90+% WHERE you hit then and at best 10% "with what" that gets the job done. A big ol' heavy .357" round tumbling about inside a bad guy's innards is pretty darn likely to get the job done. May even make an angry wild boar fall down too. Hmmm ....

[@charlesirby9222]

I was fortunate enough to get a single cavity 358430 & I think that was the 'Super Police' cast round of yesteryear. Not sure, when Dad carried in the SO I was a kid on a bicycle so I can't remember what he had in his snubbie. As usual Sam, a great review, I appreciate it. 😎👍841

[@GunSam]

The .35 Remington bullet works about identically.

[@rogerarmendariz7633]

Super police , cool round. Perfect for pursuit of a blue sedan heading north bound. Like the old cop movie bad guy description fleeing.

[@GunSam]

Yeah, hard not to imagine Dirty Harry.

[@jasonsliger5430]

I believe that I like the old school better. Thanks

[@ItsPitts777]

Thanks man for the video. Just ordered from Ft Scott. I personally would not want to be on the receiving end. And I can guarantee neither do you.

[@Hogheadsforbreakfast]

Several years ago I loaded some 38-200’s for a friend that acquired a Webley Mark IV Tanker (hammerless). Even though the revolver was in outstanding condition I still stayed on the low end of the load data. No sense in pushing the limits of something so old and cool to own. I had to purchase the 200 grain bullet mold for the project but it was fun to be a part of the whole deal, I loaded about 15 rounds just for my personal playtime before returning the pistol. Good video as usual, take care

[@GunSam]

I did that before, loaded for a friend. He shows up with all the parts to make .450 Bushmaster. So not only did we make normal rounds, we made some that were basically .45 ACP's. Fun little plinkers.

[@Hogheadsforbreakfast]

Awesome, subsonic .450's. The same guy's brother ended up with a Colt, I forget the model but it was stamped "Hong Kong Royal Police " or something like that, anyway happened to be chambered for the 38-200 so I made him a batch too. At that time there were no videos on that cartridge, I was happy to see it getting exposed, I had never heard of it until then.

[@LionquestFitness]

Very enjoyable Sam. Good shooting too!

[@GunSam]

Thanks!

[@OldManMontgomery]

Bullets tumble because the center of gravity of the bullet - the projectile - is to the rear of the object. When meeting resistance (like ballistic gelatin) the front slows down more than the rear, thereby creating a tumble effect. Normally, they do not tumble in flight -ante target - from this effect. Air does not have as much resistance. This is also the reason the M16 bullet tumbles. If a bullet tumbles in flight (usually the result of a seriously undersized bullet or worn rifling), accuracy is critically hampered. One notes the British revolver caliber .380/200 was essentially a .38 S&W (the shorter one) case and a 200 grain bullet for the same effect. I noticed the last Super-Police round fired stopped base first (backwards) which shows some tumbling.

[@d.mangham5204]

Bingo!

[@bruceleroy8063]

Great cartridge. Great band.

[@63DW89A]

Be interesting to see how well at tumbling a hard cast 158 grain bullet would be if designed with a long pointed, tapered nose like the Fort Scott TUI! Such a bullet would shoot right to point of aim in most 38/357 revolvers. The 38 Special loading specs actually allow for 0.395" nose above the crimp groove, allowing a longer nose than the 0.3" nose above crimp groove that the .357 Mag specs call for! Most of us just load bullets set to the 357 Mag crimp groove specs without thinking about it! But for a bullet intended to tumble on impact for best terminal effect, that long 0.395" nose allowed on the 38 Special would be just the ticket!

[@paulstan9828]

Interesting I’ve never heard of either of them.

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@tiltedflip4491]

Fun video! I actually thought I was subbed to LB4L so I went and took care of that, love his stuff! Thanks for the d*a*t*a.

[@bobcatforever3485]

Good video. Thanks for sharing. Take care.

[@tarstakars]

As I recall the military load for the .38 Webley during the second world war was a 200 grain bullet traveling around 750 feet per second. this was on the 38 Smith & Wesson platform.

[@73North265]

Yes, Webley did some research in the early 20s when the British Army wanted a smaller pistol and bullet for their service revolver. Webley stuck a 200gr bullet into a .38s&w and liked the results, so the Enfield mk2 and the Webley mk IV .38-200 came in to service and replaced the Webley mk VI in .455. I believe they cut the bullet weight at some point to around 150grs at some point, but I can’t recall if they did it pre-, during or post-WWII.

[@d.mangham5204]

@@73North265, yes, they changed the ".380 Rim Mk 2" bullet to 178g conical FMJ, apparently due to concerns about Hague Convention (c. 1899) prohibitions of soft lead bullets deforming and inflicting gruesome wounds. The 178g FMJ was loaded to 625 fps +/- 25 fps and they are tumblers!

[@mountainhobo]

I believe .32 S&W Long wadcutter should be similarly quiet, shouldn't it? I would be very curious as to its penetration in your new testing rig.

[@GunSam]

Yeah, should be close.

[@jasonvoorhees2701]

Ft Scott has a nasty 125 grain .40 S&W. It steps out about 1380 from my glock 22 ..I carry it in the woods for black bear and cougar defense..

[@GunSam]

I may have to try it.

[@jasonvoorhees2701]

I got a box I'll send you if you wanna test it ..

[@92egturbo]

Thank you

[@swedeson6188]

I miss the jugg or not box... How ever, great videos!

[@scubaguy007]

Those super police are interesting. The Fort Scott have always seemed gimmicky to me. The inconsistency that you had would scare me away as well.

[@GunSam]

Yeah, it was weird. I'm just an old rural boy quick loading some ammo for tests with no OAL even measured, they just looked fine lol and way more consistent than what Fort Scott were pushing out.

[@donovanchilton5817]

I saw .38 super and got excited.

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching.

[@DABrock-author]

Interesting results. I’m thinking about trying a “Super Police” equivalent for my .327 Federals (Ruger Single Seven and LCR), probably using .32 H&R Mag brass and bullets from 7.62x39.

[@leadbullets4life]

this idea was brought by myself and Sam, i wish manufactures in the day when police depts used the ,32 colt would have made a bullet that was a bit heavier than the 98gn round nosed design.

[@GunSam]

@@leadbullets4life Yeah, but it would be cool to mess with. Nice thing about powder coated is finding the right bullet with a lube groove that might be where you can slightly crimp over the ledge of one, but I would assume it would be revolver dependent on what you can do with it. Like, a .327 Federal revolver could load some hot .32 S&W's with a 130 gr+ bullet.

[@squadleader2010]

Thank you!!

[@franciscochiriboga478]

Your yellow silhouette is not "ISPC", but IPSC, which stands for International Practical Shooting Confederation. Thanks for the great videos. : )

[@danoneill2846]

I just put a Pachmayr Rubber grip on my 624 4" 44 special it went from pain with wood grips to pure comfort , no pain at all , no whacked thumb joint . With mild rounds no issue with more power , I was getting wacked . This is almost the same as a 44 mag mountain gun ... with bad grips & mag rounds = 1 mint condition Mod 29 S&W with a box of ammo with 6 rounds shot . It's a world of difference .

[@danoneill2846]

The wood grips were large ALL Smooth factory S&W laminated . They look cool , but are way to slick & not fitted well > they were too thick & high at the top . It's possible I could have reshaped & refinished & they would be a little better . They would never be as good as the rubber grips .

[@GunSam]

Such a rare gun! If you wondered, I was waiting to give a link to Angelo at lead bullets 4 life to watch, and he didn't until like 3 am. Felt like he deserved to see it first, so now come today it's so late and it's the end of a federal holiday, so I figured more old folks would be on here now than tomorrow lol.

[@Joe3pops]

There's a good war story Gulf War 2.0 by a US Army medic who was in direct support of Iraqi police checkpoint. A protest by locals turned violent. A police officer opened fire with something like S&W Model 10 loaded with 200 grain round nose lead Super Police. Four rounds hit thier target, two were dead almost immediately. The army medic was very surprised the internal damage to organs. A third one died at the hospital internal bleeding-damage.

[@deucedeuce1572]

Both length and weight of bullet change the rifling twit rate requirement. Surprised they make bullets that range in weight and length so much, because it's hard to believe some of them can be stable (being so far from the average/normal weight and length of bullet).

[@d.mangham5204]

Yes, the long 200g bullets are only marginally stable at 600-700 fps, which is what makes them tumble inside a soft target. I think of it as achieving HP effects w/o expansion; admittedly, HPs don't always expand and 200g .38s don't always tumble.

[@tonkatank045]

Like I've seen this video like three times but it's amazing how good 38 is when you load it yourself. Like you're seriously talking about 45 ACP performance. 215 grain at 750ish fps, leaving .930 size holes in soft targets

[@upperroomtoo]

I did a similar test with a 185gr and 200gr bullets in a 2 3/4 barrel and found that 2400 powder performed much better that the faster powders I tested (titegroup and be86). Try that same bullet at 900fps from the 4 inch and 800 from the 2 1/2.

[@d.mangham5204]

Yes, slower powder such as 2400 can increase vel of the 200g bullet, with attendant improvements in certain aspects of performance. Downside: higher vel = increased stability in flight & penetration tends to be straight-line, rather than tumbling. RN bullets that don't tumble will inflict relatively less tissue damage as they transit the target.

[@slash19961]

These would be great snubby loads due to the low recoil and penetration with .38 snub nose loads being a more picky load to find for self defense these might even work out of older guns to due to them not being plus +ps

[@d.mangham5204]

They absolutely are modest, standard pressure loads and were widely used in revolvers of the "pre- +P" era.

[@mkshffr4936]

The Super Police clone might be a great load for a Taurus Defender.

[@GunSam]

I have used titegroup in them all. Somewhere around 3-3.5 grains

[@WinchesterSuperX1]

As a check, chrono with powder near bullet with a couple shots and powder near primer with the TUI and let us know what you get. The downside of the large 38 case is powder position velocity variation with some loadings.

[@apuzyr]

Very interesting. I wonder how plain ol’ wadcutters would fair.

[@adonikam1]

Great video but I'm sticking with my 45 acp

[@mrj10101]

Now that I have hearing loss there’s no ring either

[@francpavlovic2722]

Great vid. Litlle more sientific look at the rounds. Way to go. It would be very interesting if you can make comparision btw. bullets of the same call. but few difernet manufacturers. Some of them have more gun powder and have higher velocity, so are more potent.Then comparision with one step higher call. I belive that would be wery intersting and informative. The study of call. Am intersted for the best milimeter 10mm and 40s&w.

[@RANDOMNATION907]

My brother is an x-ray tech and always works the weekend night shift because it pays the most. He's been at it for at least 25yrs. now and he has told me when they get a call that a gunshot patient is coming in that he can almost tell the bullet by the patients level of consciousness. A .45acp anywhere above the knee, they're unconscious. Anything below the knee and they're just grabbing their stub and gritting their teeth in agony. 9mm go crazy, they can go in your left front abdomen and come out your right butt cheek, does horrible damage on it's way around the body, if it's in the leg, they're screaming like a little bitch, at or above the pelvis, they're groaning and trying to double over and unresponsive. 38 spl. ... it could be anything because it's such a versatile cartridge.

[@GunSam]

Brother information is good to have. Mine is the president of a major hearing aide company. He knows all when it comes to hearing damage, hence why I took off the muffs. What I did won't cause damage. Like 99% of people that get them were factory workers.

[@cekamsr]

The Ft Scott bullets, as well as Golden Sabre's, have a hard time reading through chronographs. I don't think the velocities are 300fps difference but the chrono isn't picking up their shadow well. I had issues with Ft Scott 10mm & 45acp reading through 2 different types of chronographs.

[@GunSam]

If I have an actual chronograph read issue, it's never a normal-ish number. It's either an error, something like 5,000 FPS or 10-100 FPS. If it's within a normal number it's generally an accurate read, and I did feel differences in shots. Also, I wish the camera had picked it up but it didn't, but the first shot of 1,300 FPS+ there was a huge fireball I saw, but the slower read there was not. The camera frames show it the opposite, as the slower round you see a huge flash and faster one a small flash, but in reality the first shot was 3 times more flash.

[@pant0sand0hat]

Hey Sam! Love your content. Could you explore the differences between .22 short, .22lr standard velocity, a hotter .22lr like a stinger and those new Federal punch .22? I am thinking from the Heritage Rough Rider. My main thought is the Punch and the Stinger are poorly utilized by the wrong barrel length and that the standard or short stuff is where it's at. Sorry for the novel. Hopefully this idea is useful for you. Thanks again!

[@GunSam]

Maybe. I have a test planned in several barrel lengths soon but not in that format.

[@pant0sand0hat]

@@GunSam Either way, I look forward to it. 👌

[@anthonyanzalone9742]

Next to .357 Mag, .38 Special Places Second In My Order.

[@samuel-JF1981]

These "super police" would be great in a supressed 357 lever action!

[@GunSam]

Yeah. I doubt there would be a velocity increase, but that's just fine. I mean, you could load them up to 1,000 FPS, they just wouldn't tumble like they do at 700 FPS.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

I wonder if it is the rounds that are inconsistent (probably are) or the solid copper reading, even with black marker on them.

[@rezlogan4787]

I load with a fairly similar ratio of powder to bullet in my black powder revolvers with conicals. I approximate the historical black powder loads with a flat point 140 grain, .375 solid lead projectile over 21 grains of powder. These babies can punch through 6 boards of pine. Interestingly, loading with a .375 lead roundball approximates your TUI round. About 83 grain lead projectiles going 1,000+ fps over 28 grains of powder and destabilizing violently on impact. I’ve had one of those rounds literally rip a chunk off the side of a plastic soda bottle, as if it reached out and grabbed off the whole side of it! It would be a nasty round for antipersonnel. For small game it would be overkill. I think the ballistic inefficiency of roundball results in more energy dump.

[@billosby9997]

Sam, I got a 3" .357. When you chrono .38 and .357 loads in your 2" and 4" revolvers can I assume that if I split the difference The result should be about what I could expect?

[@GunSam]

Probably, but you never know exactly as some barrels can be faster or slower than average.

[@patrickliston9595]

Great video! Have you tried Underwood 150 gr hi-tek coated wadcutter? Supposedly 1000 fps out of a standard pressure 38 special. Maybe a good automobile defense round?

[@GunSam]

Thanks. I think I might have, but it was awhile back and into water jugs. I think it was the Buffalo Bore version VS the .32 WC.

[@captaingrey6336]

Imma order me sum of those .35 projectiles. I love "weird" ammo. Typically with pistols the way low velocity bullets hit high and the super speedy ones hit low.

[@leadbullets4life]

western bullets sell them under 358315- 35 Remington.

[@sipofsunscorchedsarsaparil6052]

Hey Sam! Excellent video, as always! What kind of holster did you use for the 4"?

[@GunSam]

Thanks. S&W 686

[@philipfreeman72]

Wondering what those bullets would do at 357 target load .

[@GunSam]

They would simply pass through both gel blocks with very little damage.

[@elijahbrooks8589]

Like this experiment. Have yet to hit a coyote with a Ft Scott.

[@kirkboswell2575]

Just an FYI, even a 22 from a rifle is capable of causing hearing damage over the long term. Its nice to know that it can be fired without causing painful ringing, but you shouldn't repeat the "no muff" exercise.

[@Fudmottin]

I've had a couple of instances of firing without ear pro. Each time I knew I made a mistake. Now I have a serious hiss going on in both ears. It's very annoying and nothing can be done about it. :-(

[@gregb6469]

I'm sure it was a one-time experiment; Sam is no fool.

[@mountainhobo]

"even a 22 from a rifle" -- Many of those will be supersonic, so yes, they will damage your hearing.

[@michaelbritain5546]

@@mountainhobo they do on a regular basis, any indoor range especially...

[@kevanhubbard9673]

There use to be a .38 round I think that it was called .38 Smith and Wesson or .38 Enfield and it was chambered in Webley type revolvers.It was a pretty short cartridge, about 9mm length,but fired a really long copper coated bullet.I friend of mines Dad had one and they let me fire it a few times and you could actually see the bullet come out of the barrel against the blue sky, guessing 500 to 600 FPS, and it really keyholed.I don't think that it would fit in a .38 Special as it was slightly thicker possibly a true .38"rather than .357"?

[@GunSam]

.38 S&W is similar size to the .38 Special but shorter, and some .38 and .357 Mag revolvers can chamber and fire them and some cannot. That's how close the diameter is to .38 Special, but just a little fatter.

[@mkshffr4936]

OK now we need to try the super police through a rifle.👍

[@HAYAOLEONE]

TUI = perforation of soft armor and punching through metal sheets / bones and keep drilling.

[@GunSam]

Well yeah, I think most solid copper rounds could do that pretty well even without a pointy tip, such as the Xtreme Penetrator.

[@HAYAOLEONE]

@@GunSam Agree.

[@john-paulsilke893]

Looks like the solid copper rounds are getting blow by because they don’t conform as quickly or well as softer lead.

[@jonclark8155]

Wow Sam I have 357 tui’s 357-125 g

[@taasch2505]

Hey Sam how's it going? Been a fan for a long time. Rarely bother to comment on yt vids in general but was wondering if you'd be willing to do a video request? I have a .38 snubby but I am looking at getting a subcompact 9mm. Can you demonstrate the difference in recoil between the two and give your input on which you feel had more felt recoil? I've been right on cash but wanted to up capacity. I'm looking at the SCCY cpx 2 and 3. I don't want to make the wrong caliber choice. Thanks for any help you can give on the matter!

[@anisnissou7533]

❤❤❤❤

[@mkshffr4936]

would be interesting to try in 357.

[@danoneill2846]

This type of ammo ( heavy Rounds ) might be good in a rifle for silent running !

[@GunSam]

Yeah, same theory behind the SSS .22 LR 60 gr. I should get a .357 rifle at some point.

[@danoneill2846]

@@GunSam When I shoot 44 special +P out of the rifle they are very quiet , even 44 mags are a lot more quiet than a hand gun .

[@mspears51able]

I’m no expert, but I would think the rifling twist rate is not fast enough in a stock handgun to stabilize those l-o-n-g 213 gr bullets. It’s going to tumble and keyhole in targets at distance.

[@henriquefern67]

Would you reccomend super police 213 gr for home defense? In my 4" taurus revolver?

[@GunSam]

Wouldn't be a bad choice. Most people prefer factory loads for defense though.

[@rorybybee5937]

The super police were the better round for defense as they had about perfect penetration. The tui rounds would have been louder and would require hearing protection. The super police rounds definatly had much better momentum due to their increased weight.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

Interesting test. Have you ever tested 38 spcl Buffalo Bore 158 grn hard cast lead semi wadcutter flat nose +P out of a short barrel? My wife has the same Taurus (used to be mine lol) that I load with those for her walks. This is black bear country (seldom seen) as well as pitbull/junk yard dog territory. I want her to have the best chance with the gun IF she has to use it.

[@Ben_not_10]

Personally from the various tests I’ve seen with the 200 grain 38s I’m unimpressed with the damage and penetration. Most videos show the bullet loaded to around 630-700 fps and I wish someone would load them hotter to around 800-900 fps. If Elmer Keith taught me anything it’s that heavy bullets going fast gets you better penetration.

[@GunSam]

The reason they are loaded to run less than 700 FPS is because they Will tumble at a shallow penetration and work how they are designed to. If you pushed them to that 900 FPS, they would penetrate deep in a straight line, potentially pass through the target before it has a chance to tumble, and cause little damage to the target.

[@TheJurgisRud]

8:04 What was that flash in the gel??

[@GunSam]

Just a little unburned powder stuck to the bullet base, igniting late.

[@mikem.2078]

Did the TUIs also have low report, or just the Super-Police?

[@GunSam]

The TUI ammo should have a normal powder charge and normal sound level.

[@matthewtalich9989]

I had high hopes for this round when it first hit the market but in almost every review the shot to shot consistency for velocity is horrible. Luckily this bullet is not depended on velocity for function like most conventional hollow point bullets but it's still relatively disappointing especially for the price.

[@Petedrumsusa]

What is ISPC?

[@coffee11970]

🇺🇸💯❤️

[@mwilkinson5474]

Waay back in the ‘60s I read an article about the load that helped the Armed forces to adopt the .38 special as their official sidearm caliber. This load was determined to be the equivalent of a 200 grain lead round nosed bullet propelled by 3.5 grains of bullseye. This load caused the ‘heavy for caliber ‘ bullet to tumble with some predictably. The result was an immediate energy dump. The Moros of the Philippines proved the load ineffective.

[@TheJurgisRud]

They were ineffective? Do you remember reading if they changed the loading for their 38 specials after? And if the results were better?

[@GunSam]

Most of what I read was that the .38 Long Colt/Short Colt was ineffective, inspiring both the .38 Special's invention along with the .45 ACP's.

[@mwilkinson5474]

@@TheJurgisRud I don’t recall reading about any improvement. I have read that our troops were supplied with .45 Colt revolvers . These provided the much needed protection from the highly motivated foe.

[@mwilkinson5474]

@@TheJurgisRud check this out www.americanrifleman.org/content/america-s-military-revolvers/

[@d.mangham5204]

You're mistaking US and British Army usage of .38 caliber revolvers. The US used what we now call the .38 Long Colt with a 150g LRN bullet at about 750 fps, and it was found wanting against Moro tribesmen imbued with religious fanaticism, possibly hopped up on drugs, enraged at foreign, Christian invaders, and often bound on arms & legs with rawhide strips (think "tourniquets") to slow blood loss from bullet wounds. That's a tough man to take down! The Brits selected the .38 Smith & Wesson with 200g soft lead bullet at 600-650 fps in the late 1920s; just before WW2, they adopted Mk 2 ammo using 178g FMJ bullet. Both were soft-shooting rounds in handy revolvers, and these heavy, slow RN bullets tended to tumble inside a soft target, thus inflicting more tissue and bone damage than a mid-weight RN at higher velocity.

[@troy9477]

The Ft Scott stuff has always seemed gimmicky. I think they would be better off going with a 90 or 95 gr bullet at best possible velocity- a consistent 1100+ fps should be achievable, possibly even at standard pressure. That should work well. The Super Police has always been intriguing. Good performance, no over penetration, a d a good wallop from a heavy bullet. That is well demonstrated by the movement of the silhouette. The downside is a significant POI shift with fixed sights, which each individual user will have to determine. But they are another great reason to handload

[@GunSam]

Yeah, I noticed how they seem so blah for the Super Police, until they hit that steel.

[@Prepare2Survive]

I wonder if 148 grain full wadcutters tumble too?

[@seatosummit6172]

I believe Bill Burr would approve of this round! @15:04

[@smartacus88]

I don't get it.

[@onpsxmember]

@@smartacus88 Here, it's a comedy bit: watch?v=xyNvbeCTRO8