"It feels dead" - Former KTM test rider Mike Sleeter explains the new WP Air Shock - Gypsy Tales

[@GYPSYTALES]

Air shock - SMASH or PASS ?!

[@natelapenna4459]

I honestly would like to try it first before any real opinion.. Seems awesome 👌

[@West_Anderson]

Pass, it hasn't worked with the forks, everyone hates them.

[@BrianLampright913]

Pass, as good as air is on MTB's coil is still better with a small weight penalty.

[@Snowbikebro2]

@@West_Anderson so far i like the forks on the 2021 gasgas 450. I dont feel the stiction everyone says. The new bike has improved my riding capability alot

[@West_Anderson]

@@Snowbikebro2 the biggest issue is they build up pressure as you ride and they heat up. Might not be as big a issue on MX tracks, but when you do 2hr off-road races it becomes a big issue.

[@nealbrooker4295]

Funny they say the air shock has a dead feeling, in mountain bikes the coil feels dead and the air feels poppy

[@wheelscamp1440]

came here to say the same thing

[@swimkidandy]

Actually filled with air

[@aLn12301]

I wouldn't say coil mtb suspension feels dead, it's a linear spring rate as opposed to progressive with air. Coil is more sensitive and has better small bump compliance, this is just due to less stiction with coil.

[@nicoofner85]

Really depends on the frame and setup. Coil can be really lively and poppy, but it's hard to get an air shock to grip and be stable feeling

[@jimbo4203]

It depends on the rider. Personally i love the airshocks , I've been able to adjust the Mtb's to exactly the way i like it easily. Sleeter and other riders will figure it out with more saddle time.

[@uncoant4750]

In MTBs the difference between Air and Spring shock is about 'small bump compliance' of the Spring vs a more 'pop' feeling Air shock. The Spring is more sensitive but can be prone to peddle bob (which is not an issue for Moto) and sag set up isn't as important from a stroke POV as the action is smooth off the top, where as the Air needs alittle more attention to sag so the intital stroke doens't have the initial 'sticky' feeling. Super frothing for more Sleeter content🤙

[@nicoofner85]

Lot's of Downhill pros are going back to Coil shocks when the frame is progressive enough and even back to coil forks in Rockshox forks, so I don't expect air to be better for mx. I imagine heat being a massive issue for mx in air shocks because a moto is way longer than a 5 minute DH run.

[@leftyeh6495]

When the kids start on air, you'll see them start winning. Until you grow up comfortable on it you'll never get it out of your head.

[@chrisclifford4109]

It’s weird cause the feel of it sounds like the opposite of the feel on an MTB. I’ve only ridden coil shocks on dirt bikes but on mountain bikes air feels lively and cool feels dead (for lack of a better word)

[@brinkee7674]

I was going to say the same. If someone starts with air then that's what they know. Many folks are faster with air but don't like the feel

[@jmart8472]

I’m with it, I’m all for innovation and progression of the sport to the next level, if they can get it figured out and work through all the kinks go for it.

[@jad2484]

Just because its "innovative" doesn't mean its "next level"

[@georgecarmel6114]

I raced with a FOX air shock in a 79 YZ 125. It was good at hooking up on square edge bumps but, not so good at poping off bumps and jumps. Saw pics of WEBB and saw the spring shock was back on at ORLANDO.

[@maverick2242]

Look what happened to Barcia in that whoop section, he ended up running beside his bike, most would have crashed. I have ridden air shocks and coil on MTB never a fan of air especially for the average rider on dirtbikes, even the best air shocks in MTb give up performance over coil and the key reason is weight and climbing while pedaling, that dead feeling you mention is easier to setup the linkages kinematics for pedalling especially for uphill performance. Air has continually gotten better but! So does coil when half the development cost is invested-compared to air! The same can be said v 2t v 4t, the only reason in MX bikes are where they are today is development not the platform is better, also you have to understand the end goal,is it to win or is it to sell. I think the results you mention show otherwise! Webb went back to a coil shock and won! For a product on a bike for the pro factory rider with a truck full of mechanics and parts other than affecting his win loss capability it dosen’t matter, but for weekend warriors it’s about consistency and reliability and even simplicity as proven with air forks. While KTM Husky continue the air fork and as good as it is, it’s still not as good other than weight than coil forks at production level, it does not stay consistent especially as heat builds up, but most who do a lap or 2 probably not an issue, plus you constantly have to check you air pressure , we know these are sensitive to both ambient temperature and like tires lose air over a few days, even elevation has an affect, why in Enduro you don’t see air on there EXC line up, they still sell and use coil and EXCs outsell XCs and SXFs by a big big margin worldwide! On my dirtbikes, I will continue to prefer coil forks and shocks thank you on my MTB on my shorter travel 120 Evil Following ai use air front and on my 160/170mm Wreckoning I use coil rear and air front and that only because it’d now harder to get a coil fork for single crowns they are out there , I’ll be updating to the new Zeb with the V3 Wreckoning and seeing if I can either get coil internal swap from RS or Push or someone else. In MX heat fade would be a major issue, def be much less in SX, but not a fan myself. Not anti KTM development, but to me the air fork is still not proven itself superior to coil and that’s been around a long time now, thankfully that is one thing the a Japanese manufacturers did right ditching them and Yamaha to their credit continued with the best system and stock suspension in the market rather than gimmicks!

[@dcamp29]

Super interesting- I design rear shocks for MTB stuff (rockshox)... Would love to know what's going on in that shock. Guessing the 'dead' feeling is the hammock shaped spring curve of air- coil is a straight linear line, air has a bit of a hammock or banana shaped spring curve (less force in the middle of travel, more at the ends vs coil). On certain bikes air shocks absorb medium/large hits better as the spring rate is lower in the middle of travel. Coil almost always feels more plush and better on small chatter due to lower friction and initial springrate being more linear.

[@gregcavanaugh6259]

I'm a big moto fan but am not a rider. I'm an MTBer. Do SX/MX bikes all run linkages/eccentric pivots/etc for modifying the curve? or are all the motos basically just single pivot?

[@dcamp29]

@@gregcavanaugh6259 all run linkage now. For a while KTM's were essentially a single pivot but it didn't work as well... I believe the MX bikes are much more progressive than a MTB- probably need to modify that to optimize around an air shock.

[@gregcavanaugh6259]

@@dcamp29 cool, thanks for the info. Here's another question for you. I'm currently riding a 2018 Intense Primer @ 130mm rear with a Rockshox RTC3 on it. Would I see much of an improvement upgrading to a new shock like say the Delux or Sid lux? I feel like I never get full travel regardless of spacers and even with lots of sag.

[@TristanB415]

It will be interesting to see if it will end up being as popular as air shocks are in mountain biking.

[@infidelmat]

True, back when I was into downhill, using air shocks for anything but xcountry was controversial, but they got it figured out and coils seem to be the exception not the rule now.

[@TristanB415]

@@infidelmat although coils do have better small bump sensitivity, that's why you see all the DH racers run coils but air shocks are a lot better on bigger impacts and pedaling so for the average rider, air shocks are better.

[@waynegarfield6607]

The main problem with air shocks or forks ( but to a higher degree on shocks) is keeping the pressure chosen to remain consistent. With air ( 80% nitrogen) the temp increases in the working medium and therefore changes its spring rate. It continually heats and cools giving inconsistent feedback. Pure nitrogen does this to a lesser extent over air but it is still a problem . Overpressure bleed off valves help as does a large air chamber with some form of cooling.

[@infidelmat]

@@waynegarfield6607 I wonder if the rear shocks get up to temp very quickly, or if they actually keep the shock warm before starts. Self balancing pressure valving systems sound pretty neat, but here we go with more complexity to go wrong.

[@nicoofner85]

@@infidelmat I can only speak for a Öhlins TTX coil shock on the DH bike. It gets really damn hot after a 5 min run at racepace, but stays consistent. An air shock gets even hotter and will change a lot. That must be a problem on a mx bike. What are the outdoor motos? 40 mins or so right?

[@jakewhobrey3185]

Take a shot every time sleeter says “right”

[@itsbigcon8428]

Pass. Air forks suck too

[@jbird1173]

We had air shocks from fox on quads since like 2006. The rear shock is still a dual rate spring.

[@ThAT1GuyNaMedAJ]

Air suspension has been around for a long time, not one other motorsport uses it for multiple reasons. What makes KTM think the consumer wants it? Is it cheaper for them to make?

[@johanneso6083]

Proberbly, but it is also lighter and more adjustable.

[@mikeb4708]

They did do some consumer research on it. Personally, I convert all of my air forks to spring because I don’t like the feel of the air fork.

[@mickeybeahl2233]

Coil kills airshocks

[@ashtonpalmer7047]

Sleeter is such a legend. So happy to finally see him in the house!!! This is huge🙏🏻🙌🏼

[@cadillacmoto]

When is the whole pod coming out?

[@GYPSYTALES]

Links in the description legend

[@cadillacmoto]

@@GYPSYTALES yesssirrrrrrr keep it up man, love the content👍👍👍

[@denniswilder3014]

Snow cross snowmobiles have been using air shocks for over ten years and trail sleds that have air shocks don't seem to bleed down during storage so I wonder if all these problems are caused by the shock shafts being so small and they trying to get the balance of shaft size and being to big and heavy and to small to seal

[@casada70]

I bet it works great for SX/MX where you aren't going longer than 30 minutes, but for trails, dunes etc. it'll heat up and drastically reduce its performance to the point its useless. Same reason why Air shocks don't work for Desert trucks or 4 wheelers unless its a dedicated rockcrawler that just goes slow. Not something that will be popular in the production market because it will only target a specific consumer.

[@tcmx712]

That's the exact same experience I have with them especially in hotter climates where it commonlu exceeds 40°C they become atrocious 20min in.

[@MX304]

I'm not even sure they are going to work well in MX. May be an SX only tool. Were any of the MXGP guys on them last year?

[@casada70]

@@ThatWasPrettyFunny Yes but the spring will retain rideheight, an airshock will lose both dampening and rideheight.

[@oldg8607]

Kudos as always Fellas ✊✌ Old G

[@moto_head-u2t]

After the air fork debacle, can’t believe they’d try the shock

[@allmtbnzscottbrownhill2896]

Very interesting, if you look to mountain bikes that have had air shocks for years the Downhill guys prefer spring still, my Enduro rig has air shock and ive cased some big hits and it just eats it up which is exactly that dead feeling Mike talks about. I think the spring is more reactive on on the small chop tho. Another year and they will get the Air shock sorted it may need some valving innovation to be as good as the spring in the small chop.

[@lesterbow7836]

KTM winner in all magazine's. Best air shocks.

[@E63s_Scott]

Didn’t cooper go to the air shock and win, thats what they said on the show, they didn’t get enough time to test it so started with the spring. But now he’s on the air shock and found the level of comfort he needs?

[@BrianLampright913]

He started on air shock, did not win, and the switched back to coil and won...you won't see air shock for the remainder of the season after that.

[@E63s_Scott]

@@BrianLampright913 are you sure ? That would make sense, he did look like the old coop was back

[@paddydunne774]

Hahaha reminds me off the hype round Fox Air Shox. Had them on a 79 Honda brilliant. Then spend 1500 quid on Fox Forx and another 350 on more Shox to run on a four stroke. Never got those things to work. And a Honda guy who spannered in Europe worked on them every fricking week. Nothing new under the sun!! Fck the Airshox , you can’t beat coil over springs and a drop of oil to get that rear end set up plush 🤘😉 a 79 Honda in UK was £749. So spent a ton of money of suspension in comparison. Buts always worth it. £10 Down. The rest by Court Order

[@davidroberts283]

Fox Air Shocks in the late 70's were like Jewelry. Pro's rode with them because they were cool. They were trick, but not good. If you totally got the FoxAir dialed in, they were adequate. Works Performance with springs were better.

[@tcmx712]

Massive pass, I've flown the flag for air forks offroad for the last 3 years and I'm done with any air suspension forever. It's even making me get a yamaha next instead of a ktm for that 1 reason it's that big a problem for me

[@GYPSYTALES]

Yeah fair call. I would suggest a spring conversion kit though if you wanna be on a KTM. I have heard good things!

[@tcmx712]

@@GYPSYTALES yeah thought about that just can't justify spending a heap more on an already expensive new bike vs just a revalve in the Yammie. Since I'm up in the Kimberley the Yamaha's stability is also a big plus through high speed sand whoops, just wish the 350xcf came with springs since it's an offroad model then I'd stick with orange

[@pags1981]

Use silicon spray on air fork legs. Coil feel restored (dont get it on your brake rotors).

[@tcmx712]

@@pags1981 that's an interesting one. Cheers for the info but it's not so much the feel of airforks but how temperamental they are. I just always seem to be chasing the right pressure whilst I'm riding which is fine at the track but when you're offroad and everybody else is still riding while I've gone back to the ute to readjust air pressures several times it gets annoying. It's manageable when it's around 30°C but when it's 40°+ they become atrocious

[@tcmx712]

@@ThatWasPrettyFunny thats exactly the problem, you shouldn't have to pay 2g on top of a bike that's already almost $15k to make it perform, then what happens when the air shock becomes production and has the same issues as air forks do you pay another couple of grand to convert it back to spring aswell??? The ktm shock is already on par with the yz why change it???

[@H3avyHaul3r]

its not just about the shock type its the linkage geometry driving it ....mx need to look at mtnbikes

[@gg4760-k5n]

Air shock and its natural progressivity would be perfect for the PDS platform and lighter weight would also be great for when you need to push,lift, tug your bike in enduro but for some reason KTM doesn't put air on their enduro bikes. In DH mtb air/coil is 50/50 and usually going air is used for smoother tracks with bigger jumps because it is more progressive and offer more support which makes for a more reactive bike, quite the opposite of what has been said in the video so this is very strange and maybe they need to look more into what the mtb industry did to sort their airshocks.

[@ajwight3687]

As someone who ride mountain bikes all the time. I prefer air shocks.

[@garrett3234]

was cooper on air shock that last race he beat Roczen?

[@samuelsloth6730]

I find this interesting. Its the opposite on mountain bikes. Air shocks feel more playful and coils feel dead in a sense. They tend to have better traction though. I think this most likely has to be due to moto having more to suspend the weight of the bike not as much the rider and a mountain bike is opposite supporting the weight of the rider not the bike.

[@pags1981]

Air shocks have more bottoming resistance, ideal for Supercross. Coil wins hands down for MX though.

[@thedude7726]

Fox floats have entered the chat. Been a thing on atvs for years.

[@johnbabb1138]

Been a thing on snowmobiles for years also, I personally like them.

[@JorgeLourenco000]

They laughed at KTM for going with the tubular frame in MotoGP, and look where they are in 5 years. It needs work that's it.

[@asambi69]

It's been worked on for over 10 years and still sucks.

[@thirdguy4589]

The whole bringing an expert on that knows more than you then talking down to them thing is a very Joe Rogan move. It works for Joe because he is a tiny little guy and a comedian. So people give him a pass.

[@natelapenna4459]

Barcia still about flew off inn the whoops with the air shock.. Probably what saved him from eating dirt! 😂 hes still inn it though few more wins over kenny he may have a shot... Kennys been looking good this year though well see! Ready for west division to start... Is hunter Lawrance racing in place of jett anyone know?

[@Aquaberrybackfist]

0:12 and I’ve always heard aussies can take a joke

[@GYPSYTALES]

30% of this podcast is me getting roasted 😂🤷🏼‍♂️

[@Aquaberrybackfist]

@@GYPSYTALES oh I know that’s why I like the show so much feels just like friends shooting the shit talking about riding. Love what you’re doing keep up with the solid content!👌

[@BrianLampright913]

mountain bikers are starting to go back to coil shocks for improved performance despite the weight penalty...funny that MX is still attempting to make these work. I'm a fan on the mtb because of weight advantage, but for performance coil has always been better and IMO always will be.

[@liveforpool77]

109nate been trying to tell u guys this on Tik tok but y’all are in denial !!

[@kolbydunham5148]

But didn’t coop just win on an air shock??? He looked good all night and ran the fastest time in the main

[@BrianLampright913]

He won on coil...they said it in the video. :)

[@noname-jr1vo]

I'm a technician and a mechanic and worked for Yamaha and Kawasaki for many years. I think air shocks and forks are a dumb idea and are dangerous. Springs don't fail.

[@ridemx323]

Do think Steve actually watches these videos?

[@scottlea2007]

I’ve heard all the pros and cons of the air fork. I have a set on my 2019 ktm 450 and I personally love them. We ride 90% off road, tight single track/enduro style riding and I love the air forks. But I have buddies who race moto and the majority of them have gone with the spring conversion kits. If they continue to excel the technology of the air forks, I believe it will be a huge smash

[@johnbabb1138]

Yeah I have an 18 KX450 and I love the Showa air fork , had people tell me they were junk and to get rid of them, I did some dialing and got them to work great . I think people don't know how to set them up and get frustrated lol !!!

[@QuidproMoto]

Put it on the rally bike!

[@infidelmat]

I trail ride/Enduro so it's not as critical handling wise, but reliability is when you're in godforsaken nowhere.

[@andrewburdett3727]

What’s more reliable?

[@infidelmat]

@@andrewburdett3727 coil springs never break, but air springs can leak or lock up depending on the system.

[@ivtec845]

A 2012 and 2021 air shock is completely different

[@Sirmellowman]

my dads new bike has them, cant stand it.

[@holeshotinspectionllc2412]

Hard pass, until the technology is improved, also not a huge fan of blowing a seal, and loosing all my air...

[@actionsportster7686]

and that is the biggest reason not to run one. If it goes down, you're done.

[@snowrider4495]

I guess ktm is trying to match their dead suspension with their dead 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear! dead as shit!

[@Kstang09]

Three letters: SSS. #YAMAHA :)

[@emersonvarley5069]

PulpMx...LEL

[@maxrpm2215]

Air shocks are only for MTB

[@jaytownjunkyardfiles1999]

Kinda obvious that, Sleeter, wasn't that into the "f*ck" word. Podcast sounded much more intelligent coming from Sleeter than Gypsy. Is that how a gypsy is supposed to talk, I don't know?

[@GYPSYTALES]

Aussies are more open with swearing than Americans. It’s just cultural and I don’t think one way is better.

[@jaytownjunkyardfiles1999]

@@GYPSYTALES Perhaps, Sleeter just sounded more intelligent without the swearing. Your audience is global, might reach more fans if podcaster sounded more like Sleeter. Wouldn't hurt to try.

[@enduro-parts-aus]

Air shock 🤮 my air forks are bad enough 😂

[@alistairbalistair9596]

tell me about that air shock...... because blah blah blah blah blah

[@robb8331]

can you speak english please. i can not comprehend your belgian.

[@pauldavies5541]

Nobody cares about jujitsu!

[@GYPSYTALES]

I do. So that would make your point moot