Harley Davidson's Real Problem - that's CONCERNING

[@steveolson-eo9kt]

One of harleys big concern should be expensive motercycles with expensive repairs and upkeep because of poor engineering. Big turnoff.

[@wallace3953]

This comment is Direct. Correct. And the real big problem!

[@feloniousmonk3049]

It only took me 1.5 years to stop riding my HD Softail. HD came out with the Milwaukee 8 in 2017. Instant oil sumping issues with the bike. It took Harley engineers 3 fricken years, and 7 redesign part numbers before they finally came out with an oil pump with seals that fixed the problem, starting in May of 2019 for 2020 model year production. That's complete and utter BS. 65 years old. Test rode a BMW R1250 RT and it was all over for the HD. The low center of gravity of the boxer, the superior Horsepower, the price, and the shaft drive, with one hole to drain and one hole to fill for an oil change for engine clutch and gearbox is what sold me. Auf Weidersehen! No more oil sumping issues. Oil sumping issues is a sign of shitty engineering and design.

[@davr9289]

Interesting. I’m 61 and just bought my first Harley. 24 Road Glide. White Onyx Pearl. Been riding my entire life. 1st bike was a Honda 50 back in the 70’s. Just heard you say you were in Chelsea. I graduated from Milan HS, class of 81.

[@BoDean52]

@@davr9289 awesome and congrats on the bike!

[@Tryke_Ryder]

I was at the Harley booth at Sturgis this year, and it was surprisingly empty… I had a significant accident (ambulance, hospital, surgery, Rehabilitation) and I’m still riding!! Happy anniversary!!!😊

[@kennethcalimpong7919]

Hi BoDean 52, another great video, I have buddies that are not riding because of the outbreak of distracted drivers, hitting and killing motorcyclists on my small island, with the cutbacks on Law enforcement, and people just not having the discipline to not to handle their phones while driving…all the cars have implemented hands free systems for mobile phones. But unfortunately people are still distracted while driving. I commute every day, rain or shine on my RoadGlide, I am always on high alert, when sharing the road with cars, Be Blessed 🙏🏽, Ride Hard💪🏼, Aloha, Kenneth 🤙🏽

[@BoDean52]

Appreciate you, brother and we definitely need to be defensive drivers

[@tennwingman3350]

I agree with you Bob. If you cannot get on a bike and head out be yourself and have the enjoyment just to be on the bike then that person will stop riding after 3 yrs. It's folks like me and you who will have just as much fun riding by ourselves as with others, we will never stop riding. I actually love riding just by myself. I started riding way back when it was hard to find others to ride with. Thanks bro for the video. Be safe, have fun.

[@BoDean52]

I would ride with you any day

[@MyrnaH-ce8vm]

Mi​@@BoDean52

[@jeffskidmore64]

I’m 60 years old & I just purchased a 2024 Road Glide with 117 last week. I’ve been riding for 45 years

[@BoDean52]

Same age, same bike, sure is fun, isn’t it?

[@jeffskidmore64]

@@BoDean52 yes except I have the Sharkskin color.

[@nelsonlopez4695]

@@jeffskidmore64 congratulations 🎊

[@BoDean52]

Dude your real angry, relax and go ride

[@BoDean52]

Meant @ArmstrongArmory brother

[@tjmayer9103]

HD dealerships in my area that were owned by local families. Have been bought out by large corporations. As a result, great customer service is non existent.

[@BoDean52]

You’re not lying

[@larryj8924]

HD Service work for maintenance, oil changes and tires make driving an average car cheaper. Still ride for pleasure.

[@jean-pierred1094]

I am 68 and bought a Road glide CVO ST this year after 30 years of riding Road Kings. I just love this bike! Planning to keep on riding… I do get your point on people quitting due to distracted drivers. It I absolutely horrible right now. Need to have eyes in the back of your head as well…always stay in first gear at stop lights. I also see a lot less motorcycles on the road (except for big meets of course).

[@bobnelson2499]

In my humble opinion I think every market has changed (maybe during Covid). I enjoy my solo time on the bike riding and stopping at my pace and choice. Good questions and topic Bob.

[@williamhopkins3500]

You’re spot on sir. My situation as a long term rider (now 71) is to throw in the towel. My son used to ride but got in a bad accident and quit. My other rider friends are getting too old to ride long distances anymore. I look at how much they cost vs how many times I can ride in Michigan and it boils down to about 2-3 months per yr. Dunno if that’s worth it and premium gas is about 4.30 a gal too. I like my HD street glide but it’s been sitting in garage collecting dust.

[@MEGATRON_1247]

Ill take it for cheap

[@kevindecker9444]

Long distance riding requires a Gold wing.

[@ANONYMOUSBIKERUSA]

So many variables with this equation. Drivers, affordable, people with poor credit who can only get 20% rates from HD, new kid and wife came along.... and on and on. Time commitment is also a big one if your family isn't supportive of it. Bottom line for me is I enjoy riding and discovering new places and i enjoy riding solo all day long. Strategy? many layers to it bc it's multi generational and depending what they bring to market. A cool looking 8k entry bike would do wonders for the brand. Slim down the 23 touring options, and drop the ADV.... it's nice but that market is SO cornered by major players who know exactly what they want. Hope for their sake they figure it out bc HD is needed along with all the other manufacturers so we have solid competition in the R and D room to the board room and ultimately to the show room. my 2 cents. off to ride my royal enfield 😂

[@BoDean52]

Maybe they should put you and me on the board

[@ANONYMOUSBIKERUSA]

@@BoDean52 I'm on enough boards as is

[@daveb4583]

I started riding at 13 years old. Turning 70 in February and just bought my fifth Harley a 2024 Road glide and love it!

[@geraldscott4302]

I'm 65, I started riding on the street at age 16, on a 1972 Suzuki GT380. I have owned over 30 bikes, and have ridden over a million miles. Every single one of my bikes, and I still have five, has been carbureted. I WILL NOT buy a computer on wheels. That is NOT what a motorcycle is. One of my current bikes is a 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 750 that I bought brand new, and still ride, 31 years later. It has 108,000 miles on it. All mine. I also have a 2006 Harley Sportster 1200L that I bought brand new 19 years ago. I have 57,000 miles on it, and it still runs like new. I have ALWAYS ridden alone. That is one of the main reasons I ride. To get away. No people, no phones, no computers, just me, the bike, and the road. I am the only one in my family, and in fact the only one I've really known that rides. I did not buy the Sportster because of the name on it. I bought it because I loved the way it looked, sounded, and felt. H-D no longer makes anything like it. All they make is smooth, quiet, computerized flat black TRASH. Then there is the rainbow thing and the Deadwire. Yes those things matter, and I am getting embarrassed to be seen on my Sportster, even though it was made before this woke nightmare happened. I am seriously considering removing the Harley Davidson emblems from the tank. I don't want anyone to think that I approve of what H-D is doing. I DO NOT. The way I see it, is the woke thing is H-Ds biggest problem, I do belong to several online motorcycle forums, and it is a huge topic on the forums, and a huge thing for me personally. Price is obviously another huge issue, and then there is the fact that H-D no longer makes "Harleys". The traditional Harley ended with the Twin Cam engine. I don't consider the M8 to be a Harley engine. It does not meet the definition. It is way too smooth and quiet, and Harleys are not supposed to be smooth and quiet. Then they dropped the EVO Sportster, which was the only traditional Harley they had left. The Pan America and what they now call a Sportster are not even close to being Harleys. And that engine has been a nightmare as far as reliability goes, everybody who bought those things seems to be having problems, and H-D doesn't seem to want to honor the warranty. Then there is the flat black thing. All my bikes have bright shiny paint and lots of polished aluminum and chrome. I have added several hundred $$$ worth of chrome to my Sportster. I'm not going to buy a flat black bike, and I'm not going to buy an H-D that doesn't look, sound, and feel like a Harley. They are also pushing those huge baggers, and that is absolutely not what I want. I might as well drive a convertible. I am no not brand loyal. You can expect some brands to keep changing things. But H-D was supposed to be an alternative to that. They have destroyed everything they have been for nearly 100 years. And now I hear they are planning to have bikes built in Thailand. Harley Davidson is doomed, and they did it to themselves. I have zero sympathy for them. At my age I have zillions of older used Harleys to choose from if I decide to buy another one. If I could afford it, I could even build a complete Harley without using a single H-D part, and it would be far closer to what a Harley is supposed to be than anything H-D is peddling today.

[@motorcyclemichael2182]

Wow! Tell us how you really feel 😅 Well said

[@Tinfoilhat311]

Motorcycles are toys. If you have to finance a toy, you can't afford it. I opted out of buying a new one and restored my 2012 Ultra into an amazing ride. I like Chrome (I'm an old fart), and the blacked out look just does not appeal to me. Personally I would buy an older bike and fix it up at this point.

[@BoDean52]

I think you have a very good strategy

[@kman-mi7su]

Amen, It makes no sense financially to buy a new motorcycle. There are so many used ones with low mileage for thousands less than new. And that's true across the board with all brands. I haven't bought a new bike in years and probably never will again.

[@vasu925]

Those three answers/trends make a lot of sense. A common thread to each of these is that younger people prefer electronic entertainment (fun, safe, on-line groups are easier to access).

[@BoDean52]

Good point

[@NorCal-refrigeration]

There’s no better way to camp ⛺️ and fish 🎣 is to go on the HD. With or without buddy’s. I’m 57 on a 2020 low rider s with 50,000 miles on it’s been a great bike so far,

[@mikedanaher3413]

All motorcycle sales are down, most young people just aren’t interested. Plus, with so many distracted drivers on the roads, lots of people are not willing to take the risk.

[@kennv7566]

In my area I'm seeing less bikes on the road when I'm riding. I haven't rode with friends in almost 2 years, they have lost interest in riding. I think motorcycling as a sport is declining by all the points made in the video.

[@johngrabowski2957]

I’m a trucker, been yutzing around out here on and off for 33yrs, MILLIONS, of miles. It’s never been this bad on the roads. I’ve never wrecked anything, much less a truck. I know what people are going to do usually before they do, reading traffic is my job. I now have close calls daily. Be safe..

[@HDR20]

And the MoCo can't get that through their head and continue to try to appease the younger crowd with the bikes and the gear. They have left out their core riders. I am 52 years old own a few hds but will not buy another one or spend any money in their dealerships

[@joshrandall5297]

That doesn't excuse Harleys failures.

[@brianhoppenrath8379]

Rookie

[@teakey]

Holy Shoot. Listening to this video in the morning. My about to buy a Harley from a guy that had his 3 years. Same reasons he gave were 1. and 3. And we are neighbors. Maybe down the road we can share a ride.

[@BoDean52]

Sounds great!

[@eliinthewolverinestate6729]

I stopped riding motorcycles when I got a car. Then 20+ years later got board and fixed my old 2 strokes and started riding again. Then bought the Buell I always wanted.

[@wskeyson3382]

Why are H-D sales down? In my humble opinion I believe it's because of dealerships that only see $'s instead of the customer, much like that dealership you went to prior to buying at Capitol H-D!

[@BoDean52]

Motor company would never say that but I agree that had to be a part of it!

[@tjmayer9103]

HD dealerships in my area that had "mom & pop" ownership. Have been bought out by large corporations. As a result, great customer service is non existent.

[@jeman022004]

Definitely agree with you. I went to several HD dealers after riding the new Road Glide at a demo event. I really wanted to buy one but couldn’t get by the used car sales tactics played by the dealers. I went into a BMW dealer and was treated like royalty. I was out the door with keys in hand in less than an hour. No sales gimmicks.

[@RNintheTrenches]

Have riden H-D's since 1986. I'm a neuro trauma RN. I've gradually seen an increase of distracted driver (vehicle operators on their phones) related accidents. Multiple the trauma injuries by 100 if it happens when one is riding their bike. It's becoming more common; enough so that it gives me a moment of pause and I have countless miles under my belt. I just stay right with God becuase your life can change in an instant. I've seen it happen too many times.

[@BoDean52]

So very true and I have a daughter who is also an RN and she reminds me of that all the time

[@ShutterUp]

I stopped riding for quite a few years/decades... Raising a family, bills and responsibilities, honestly, I couldn't afford it and I was sole income provider. Debts are paid, kids are grown and we have been loving every minute of it. Got my first Harley this year, I never thought I would like the Harley as much as I do. I tell my friends, "I'm still not a Harley guy"

[@BoDean52]

Great story and priorities right on, congrats on the bike!

[@tjmayer9103]

@@ShutterUp You're one now 😁

[@Robert-q6m9d]

I love riding my Harley Davison! 63 years old I’ve been riding motorcycles my whole life. I do not plan on stopping anytime soon however I’ve never seen it this bad as far as distracted, drivers and everyone is in a hurry. I avoid highways at all cost. I love riding alone I love riding with my wife and I, and so does she I’m lucky🙏🏻 everybody stay safe and keep your head on a swivel🇺🇸

[@jhw326]

That was a solid post. Enjoy your time off with the wife. I rode as a kid because a friend had a bike. My uncle also had a motorcycle because it was cheap reliable transportation. The wife and I ride two up alone mostly in WNY. Nice way to spend weekends. The reason I ride Harley has been strongly influenced by its presence on KZbin. I watch and take riding training classes to stay as safe as possible. A little marking revamp to focus on family, tradition, and freedom should help get the company back on track.

[@BoDean52]

Some good suggestions right there

[@qthebikeahaulic]

Here are a few not mentioned yet. 1) Cost, (Harley tax) not just purchase price "premium brand per the HD CEO" but shop cost. Closest shop to me is 2 hours away at $185 per hour. Last service was a rear tire replacement, only got 12,300 miles out of it -$430 with free labor - this month's dealer special. 2) No bikes aimed directly at under 30-year-olds really. No naked / sportbike options, under 350cc/ beginner bikes, dirt bikes. 3) Reputation. Unreliable, Old tech/ air cooled / heavy and slow. 4) Obsolescence. No dealer support if over 10 years old. Considered worthless at trade in above 60k miles. (this happened to me) on a 3-year-old bike I only traveled distance with, not my daily rider(2007klr650). 5) Dealer experience. I've seen it first-hand how younger people are ignored.

[@johnasbury9915]

The planned obsolescence is so hard to stomach for a brand that markets and lives off of it “heritage”… I have an ‘05 Road King(a lot like Duke) that Harley will not support anymore. Had an ECM go out last year, I had to order the replacement off of EBay. She’s done over 3K on it and I’ll just go independent mechanic and look for parts on my own..

[@BoDean52]

Appreciate you sharing all your thoughts and many are hard to disagree with

[@valjatriogina228]

​@@johnasbury9915that was one of the reasons, why i got rid of my 04 (5hd1, german model) Heritage at a fantastic prize! You wont get any replacement parts for the TSSM unit with the annoying alarm system! I now ride an absolutely stock Honda fury. Same riding fun, but no headaches about a technical breakdown! After riding Harley for more than 30years a wie decision for an old white man!

[@barendfourie6687]

​@johnasbury9915 honda dealers in my area did it to me with my vtx 1800 5yrs ago.

[@johnasbury9915]

@@barendfourie6687 that bites.. it is so irritating isn’t it?

[@rkt88403]

Last year towards the end of a 860 mile day trip from Lansing MI to Grimesland NC, I was so tired and beat that I thought I might give it up when I got back home. The next day I was riding around the area and collecting T-shirts from different shops. Carolina V-Twin is a great place with great people. Boneyard H-D...not my type of place. Son and I drove to Tampa to have a 4 generation get together. I was the oldest generation lol. A couple days later I rode to Nagshead to own a T-Shirt that a friend had given me the year before when she was there. The next day, I rode the 860 miles back home to Lansing, which was a piece of cake. Did it again this year. 2004 Softail Standard that I bought new at Capitol. We ain't done yet. 71 and looking forward.

[@BoDean52]

That is awesome of four generation get together is priceless

[@MinnowMoto]

I really enjoy the HOG chapter. One of the groups I belong to have more older people that only use it as a social club. They do not ride anymore. Kinda scares away the people that want to ride.

[@BoDean52]

Didn’t think about that

[@kevindecker9444]

I laugh at you clowns who run around wearing a cut and acting like you are in a gang. You guys look like idiots. When I owned my last HD, I just liked to ride. I didn't run around thinking I was Billy bad as s. I never looked down on other people who might ride Honda, BMW, Yamaha etc...

[@curtis1951]

Real riders don't need a reason to ride. They ride for themselves. If someone gets out of riding for any reason other than they aren't physically able then it was just a hobby. Real riders will ride forever. We can't help it. It's almost a sickness 😂

[@BoDean52]

And glad we have it!

[@LHawk-l8f]

There's another faction.... Those of us that purchased our Harleys years ago and due to proper maintenance and somewhat reserved riding habits, continue to operate our twenty plus year old machines. I love to check out the new models and yes , another gear, another gallon, and electric cruise would be great but...... when you take into account what that's going to cost, you have to ask yourself if it's worth it. Other than having a shorter cruising range and needing to stop for fuel more often we can run right alongside anything produced today. Call me frugal or a tightwad as you will, I can't justify spending that much more money to gain so little.

[@charlesroller1833]

Yes the bikes are more expensive, but the quality of the new bikes does not match the price. I have bought new and owned a 2003 Dyna Low Rider, a 2000 Road King Custom, a 2009 Ultra Classic and am now on my 8th season with a 2017 Ultra Limited. The problems the first 3 bikes were relatively minor free with the exception of the 2000 Road King issue with the cam chain adjusters. The 2009 Ultra with the 98 engine was the best bike are far as trouble free reliability. The 2017 Ultra limited has been a nightmare of headaches and with a factory warranty of 2 years ,most of the cost of repairs fell on me. Here is a partial list: front right radio speaker failed [covered under warranty] speedometer and tachometer both leaking in moisture [Harley Davidson never provided a solution ,so the problem still exists] start switch went bad. Motorcycle would only start if in neutral making it dangerous if you stalled out in an intersection Front wheel bearing failed Rear wheel bearing failed Catalytic convertor failed Oxygen sensor failed Oil pump failed at 39,000 miles leading to replacement of oil pump, lifters, cam bearing This is all in addition to the general costs of scheduled services, as well as the replacement of tires and brakes. That is a lot of failures for a motorcycle that costs $28,000 [in 2017]. That is as much as some new cars that come with a 10 year ,100,000 mile warranty! I have been riding Harley Davidsons since 1993 and put on an average of 7,000 miles per year. Harley Davidson encourages riders to put on high mileage with their various promotions. That leads to spending lots of money on their parts and maintenance. That is a good marketing strategy, but with the costs of motorcycles and their maintenance, and a limited riding timeframe for many people weather -wise, it is no surprise that people are giving up on expensive motorcycles after 3 years of ownership! Based on my experience with Harley Davidson, it does not surprise me that their sales are down!

[@BoDean52]

You bring up some good reasons to go used

[@kevindecker9444]

Saw a CVO for sale in Macon GA. 60K

[@DaveHamm-yh4ud]

Fellow Michigan rider here. I've rode since 92 on the street and rode Harley's since 2000. I sold my 2018 Limited and my 2005 1200 Custom a few years ago and bought a Corvette. I just got bored with riding. I got the itch again and am currently working a deal on a 24 Streetglide. I couldn't believe how many new bikes my local dealer had in stock. In my opinion most people don't have $30k to waste on a recreational toy that you'll ride for 4-6 months a year. I definitely understand but riding is in my blood.

[@BoDean52]

Totally understand your feelings, and to be honest with you, I’ve thought about the same thing with the car.

[@Karrpilot]

And here i thought all along it was the dealers asking full list prices and or over list prices for unsold 2 years old units. Coupled with aftermarket bling and their markups, that's why i left the dealer without making a sale.

[@BoDean52]

And that 😆

[@Boxer1250RT]

10 years ago, I knew about 15 guys who were riding regularly. As of now, I am the only one who rides regularly. A few still have bikes, but not even riding. Some lost interest, some had accident, some had kids and got afraid of getting injured or even dying. These are all legitimate reasons. I will continue to ride as long as I am in good health. I do ride all year around as long the temp is 45 plus and no precipitation.

[@RawsBee22]

I wonder how much high interest rates contribute to sales slumps. When budgets are tight, the first things that go are the toys, especially the high-priced toys.

[@KiwiBizDude]

Thanks for the video. I mainly fall in the first category, after one year the fun was gone riding my 2022 HD Street Glide Special compared to some other bikes I owned. My Street Glide is now for sale. I will not replace the Street Glide with any other Harley.

[@outbadbob4416]

Maybe asking 3000 over MSRP on 24 road glides in my neck of the woods

[@BoDean52]

That’s crazy!

[@johnsalvi9073]

The public should be saying or asking, “why do I need a 24 Street Glide, a 2024 Road Glide?”

[@BoDean52]

@@johnsalvi9073 got bunch of reasons

[@JackPanitch-hy1ws]

Started riding at age 61. I’m three years into it now, and this last season saw explosive growth. I’m into self-discovery and pushing my limits intelligently. I don’t have forever, so I want to make what time I have count. King of the Baggers is a gas, too. I’m 5’6” and 185 lbs with a 29-inch inseem. At the beginning of the season, just moving my new Road Glide from the garage to the driveway scared me, I thought I had made a mistake, but I kept at it and now it’s nothing. (My first bike was a Street Bob, and I gradually moved up as my skills quickly increased.). In seasons 1 and 2, I hadn’t done many longer rides. This year I was commuting 65 miles to work (through Chelsea, MI btw), and really learned to handle myself anywhere in any situation, though I prefer backroads to the interstate. My second bike (I have two) is a Pan America. Just road it to Tecumseh Harley Davidson to install a Vance & Hines slip-on exhaust. The ride home was loud! I’m not really looking for fellowship. Alone is good. This way, if I want to hit 95 just for the experience, it’s on my own terms, I’m not forcing someone else to follow. Thinking of Harley Davidson’s concern, though, one of the ways the ski industry used to get kids more involved was racing, not against anyone in particular, but against yourself. It was mainly a weekend thing where I grew up, but they would set up a slalom race course, and then people would pay to run through the course. I wonder if more of that kind of activity would attract people.

[@BoDean52]

Great comment and never too old to ride on say. Glad you like your Road Glide!

[@shovel_head80]

My local hd stealership closed because they were ripping off the the life long riders

[@BoDean52]

That’s not right. I have one that I like and trust around here, but there are other others that I wouldn’t step foot in.

[@davepadbury2168]

!! I have ridden a motorcycle every year since I was 14 years old, I,m 64 now and still ride….40 years

[@jasonkling4172]

I blew a rear tire and slow speed crashed with wife on the back in 2010. She would not get back on for several years until her cousin came with his bike to visit. He chewed her ass. Been back on bike for 5 years now❤. All is good.been riding my whole life. Witch is over 45 years.

[@BoDean52]

Glad it worked out then

[@rontaylor2094]

I starting riding at a very early age. We lived in Charleston, South Carolina it was 1959, I was 5years old. We had moved from a house to a trailer park for a few months, my father was Air Force and we would be transfering/ moving soon. It was my 5th birthday and the neighbor was a police officer and rode a Harley Davidson, police bike and brought it home every night. On this 5th birthday he asked me if I wanted go for a ride. He put me on the gas tank in front of him and with my hands on the handle bars away we went. That was my first experience on a motorcycle. We soon moved to Moses Lake, Washington and after a short time my parents bought a farm. I was 10 years old and was riding all my older friends motorcycles and a Vespa scooter. When I was 11 we were at a cattle auction and a Honda motorcycle was being auctioned off my father bud on ot for me but quit bidding at some point A few weeks later we were at a Honda dealership and we bought a new Honda 50 step through, my first bike at 11years old. My last bike I purchased was a Harley pre- 1978 low rider (shovel head) in September 1977. I kept the bike until 11 years ago and sold it for 200 dollars less than I paid for it brand new. I've been looking at new Harley's for a few years but because all the dealerships wanted way above MSRP, it to 7,000.00 over and refused to negotiate, I refused to buy one. Today they are selling at MSRP, I still have a bad taste in my mouth because of their price gouging. I want a new bike but I am also looking at the BMW's. I'm 70 and still love riding.

[@seanlee7276]

Go woke go broke. Thats real. Lost me as a customer for life.

[@larryj8924]

Totally agree, us old timers don't forget and not likely to forgive intentionally turning their back on hard working folks.

[@sandmage1950]

What are you riding instead?

[@seanlee7276]

@sandmage1950 Still riding my Harleys, I do all my own work on them, and will use nothing except aftermarket or swap meet parts to maintain them. The Motor Company will get none of my money.

[@MEGATRON_1247]

I bet you still buy stuff made in china. #merica

[@kevindecker9444]

same here. HD are crap bikes anyway. Motors assembled in Mexico. My first HD was a 63 PAN HEAD. And to the RN comment. A lot of people are texting and driving. This is making motorcycles a lot more dangerous. I just sold my BMW K1600B 160HP would mop any HD up. That bike was so much fun to ride. Screw HD

[@wskeyson3382]

I think TFT really needs a TriGlide because I think Mrs. TFT will feel better about riding, maybe?

[@terrybyrne3890]

There are plenty of used Harleys out there that are really reasonable so the cost of a Harley is really not that big of a deal I just bought a 2005 Road King for 5500 bucks and it's like a brand new bike

[@BoDean52]

Totally agree with you there are so many great used bikes out there

[@gloryland59]

I, too, bought a 05 roadking in June and love it. Only extra I like is cruise.

[@krismerchant4982]

I wonder if cost of ownership plays it into the mix. I’m one of those 50. Somethings that bought a big bagger and I’m not sure. I totally understood how much it cost to maintain a large motorcycle. And if it’s brand new, how much it cost to ensure a large motorcycle

[@douglas9607]

They're just too heavy and they stopped developing the 45 degree Sportster as a performance platform. The problem with the old Sportster is it had a bolted together crank and they couldn't spin it to get to the horsepower. Ask Erik Buell. I wonder what the old Sportster would do if it had a forged crank, yes . . . side by side connecting rods. In other words, a real crankshaft. They gave up on the old Sportster platform and went nuts developing an overweight mega-cruiser. H-D should never give up on the 45 degree motor. Sportsters Forever! (as he tried to get up out of his chair but didn't have his walker handy)

[@markfrank2454]

I am not surprised at all with any of what you said! I think there are many reasons things are the way they are, one thing if you look at the past the early days of HD the motorcycles was for the people that had a better than average income still the same IMO. The younger generation is struggling to buy a house if they are even married things are not the same as before times have changed males are not into cars if you are a mechanic you are in high demand right now. I am 66 years young I bought a used 17 Street glide one it was cheap I don’t ride as much as I once did and it will be my last bike I love to ride but it’s dangerous and I think there are a lot of guys my age that are in the same boat. I am surprised the trees are not in full color up there? Be safe down there and happy anniversary I have been married 42 years and it’s been a great ride!

[@brianhoppenrath8379]

How high is the solo rider accident rate for Harley’s. In my state it’s half the accidents, as far as that goes, the Harley accident rate is also over 50%.

[@mikeskidmore6754]

HD was the last Motorcycle MFG to Collaborate with KZbin Motorycle channels. They preferred to give free bikes to Millionaire Celebrities. I would attribute lower sales more to the Economy than from people boycotting their woke crap.

[@BoDean52]

I get it. I’m just telling you what the motor company thinks behind closed doors.

[@brucevernon5827]

The Administration 😢,I have been riding about 55 years,my great grandfather rode a early hd late 1800's both granfarthers rode WW2 one had a Ariel, the other a BSA mum and dad were in, While pk motorcycle club when they meet,Dad rode a Sunbeam,my kids ride and do my grandkids ,but I alone never stopped riding, most family members stopped to raise a family and never returned, this could be the main reason why 3 years make's sence

[@michelthuli3630]

I had mine road glide 2022 for about three years had a bad accident and now gotta wait for a couple years to save up enough money for another big down payment to buy another one

[@BoDean52]

Most importantly, you’re OK

[@michelthuli3630]

Thank you

[@highwayman1218]

IMHO, its hardly anything new. Ive been a daily rider here in So Cal since late 80s. I rode with alot of friends and people (also in two sportbike clubs) in my early 20s and even back then in the early 90s Id say 98% of the people I regularly rode with gave up street MCs. Families, scares, financials, not their thing, etc same, made them go away.

[@concepcionortiz2898]

I actually do agree with the last statement. If the local dealership does not care about HOG, that chapter does not have a chance to take off. Especially when HOG management will not support those who want to be a part of HOG when the dealership fails to support their own chapter. I was lucky in that I found a great group to ride with that no longer needs a chapter even though we are part of one that is over 100 miles away (not the local one).

[@13_Cowboy]

Interesting. I’m well over the three year mark, but those I know who’ve quit probably fit in these cases except one: the fun factor. But I live in Switzerland and riding is awesome, but the season short. There are things that Harley can do though: sponsor safety training, events and meetups (HOG) that don’t suck. HOG takes care of some of that, and I’m a very active member, but I don’t know why some people snicker at HOG.

[@stevensteffensen9494]

I believe the 3 reasons people stop riding is totally true! I have had Harley’s Indian’s and Honda’s. O my Harley has an active rider group. I sold the other brands because no real way to find people to ride with. Where Harley is missing the boat is where new riders are trained - all are trained on something other than a Harley. What do you think they would buy?

[@chromesporty4984]

Been ridin' all my life. I'm 70. I got myself a new Heritage, and plan to ride it into the sunset...so to speak.

[@BoDean52]

Was gonna go heritage one time

[@frankfurther3828]

wait for the recalls

[@arrowrod]

Yeah! Harley dealers have no prices on their new bikes. I'm 83, still ride, my Honda 919 and Suzuki Burgman 650 scooter. I've been riding "invisible" forever. But, I ride my E-bike mostly. Everywhere.

[@JamesFrost74659]

Im 65, i parked my Harleys and bought a nice used Honda Goldwing. I LOVE IT!!!

[@BoDean52]

Nice!!

[@fingers215]

I love my 2020 SGS every 3 - 5 years. I would buy another bike, but the only other Harley i would buy is a roadglide, but I'm not sure i like the look, and 30k to 50k CVO is a lot! If I keep my streetglide and buy a 1000cc sport touring or naked bike, it's much cheaper and more fun in the twisties? Streetglide can stay for long rides or with the wife. What insensitive do i have to trade my SGS? It's Done up my way a 117 isn't enough my 114 with work is pretty close to perfect?

[@Candywarhol]

I stopped riding just before the iPhone was released. I came back this year and the jury is still out whether I will stay. In the interim, I moved to MI, a state infamous for subpar road maintenance. I have yet to deduce where I can travel without having my ass ridden by impatient drivers of cars and utility trucks.

[@BoDean52]

I am in Michigan as well, and the roads have been that way since I was a kid

[@donaldlee6760]

At 11:10 - I ride because 1) it cuts my commute to work time in half. I live in a dense urban area and can filter to the front of long lines at every stoplight. Riding my bike during the worst of rush hour is no different than driving my car on a day with no traffic. Car parking is frustrating at my work but on my bike I park next to the front door of my building along with the bicycles. 2) Driving to my neighborhood coffee shop or gym is spontaneous and carefree because I can park directly on the sidewalk with bicycles without getting a parking ticket. I specifically drive a *scooter*, which is the perfect tool for urban riding and is "parking ticket proof" from cops. Cops inexplicably ignore scooters on a sidewalk but would never ignore a HD or large BMW parked on a sidewalk. I have driven large bikes in the past (Honda CB750 and V65 Magna) and enjoy putting tons of highway miles on a big bike, but for me that is fun time unless it cuts my work commute time, which is normally not the case for freeway miles. HD is all about big bikes and freeway miles so they sadly can't take advantage of this opportunity. I used to be self conscious driving a Vespa or small cc motorcycle, but nowadays I embrace it and don't worry so much what other guys think of me as I filter to the front of the stoplight.

[@elvismotorsports]

Those of us who've been riding for years have been hearing these same comments for years.

[@miketucker326]

I just haven’t had the time between work, friends doing other things, weather and family I’ve been way too busy.

[@thadeusmoor3535]

Will agree riding has changed I stopped writing back in 2001 I sold my bike. I just bought another bike 2 months ago and I've noticed lots of people not paying attention to anything everyone is on their phone I find my head is on the swivel even more if I'm going to die I'm going to die at some point I missed riding my bike I don't like writing in groups I like riding by myself or with my wife on the back I really don't give a shit about Harley as a company

[@dang2473]

Have a great vacation. Just my thoughts from watching a lot of you tube channels, the adv bike segment seems to be on fire. Harley does have the pan america, but not at an entry level price.Royal enfield, kawasaki etc. are much more easily attainable for those of us that may want to try that type of riding, being tired or just too old for bar hopping. I went from an electra glide to a sportster, when my wife didnt feel comfortable riding anymore. I love it for solo rides on the 2 lanes,but am getting bored. I want to try some light gravel back roads etc. but at a more affordable price than the pan america. And you dont need big cc's. Maybe harley could look into something along those lines. Otherwise the RE Himalayan, new at 5700 bucks with a 3 yr warranty, has me interested. Legacy got me on a harley in the first place, my grandpa courted my grandma,on an old 1929 jd. Would love to have that in the garage!!

[@BoDean52]

I loved my KLR650

[@1Steson]

I have a '20 Street Glide Special and a '15 Ultra Limited, and I just bought a slightly used Kawasaki Versys 300X for a very small amount of money (relatively speaking) for riding backroads and solo rides around the area. It's not for long distances (which we don't often do anyway). It'll top out around 100 so it cruises at highway speeds with no problem, is light weight, nimble and easy to handle (on the road and in parking lots). Back to basic fun riding, it's a blast to ride. Has a small trunk on the back and fabric saddle bags for carrying smaller items. Ultra will be sold next spring. You mentioned Corvette - bought a used one of those about a year ago and that's getting phased into our routine as well, safe and comfortable. Trying to figure out what direction to go at age 62. I see a future with a 300 Versus weight bike (under 400 lbs) and a Corvette, but no 900 lb. touring bikes. Love riding the Street Glide but it sits in the shed most of the time because it's such a beast. Harley's adventure bike is tall, heavy-ish, and expensive, not what I'm looking for. If they came out with their rumored 900 (or even smaller and lighter would be better yet) adventure bike, at a reasonable price (let's call it under $12K) and a low-ish seat height (30" would be great), they'd probably sell a crap load of them. That 450 adventure bike market is very hot, they're big enough to cruise at highway speeds comfortably and small/light enough to be manageable by just about anyone. Copy the CF Moto Ibex 450! This bike really appeals to me (and many many others, check it out on KZbin) and I've had over a dozen Harleys since '93. The trouble with all these adventure bikes though is none of them I"m aware of is made to keep your passenger comfortable, if you ride 2 up and have had HD touring bikes, and want your passenger to keep riding, you have spoiled them on your touring bike.

[@dang2473]

@1Steson Same dilemma...always wanted to share the experience with my best friend, my wife. And we hang out with her nephew and his wife. So our solution was to put the girls on 4 wheelers and trailer everything to areas where there are trails in southern ohio and ride .Sadly, I lost her to cancer, but she will be with me in spirit! You sound a lot like us,we even tried the can am spyder for a couple of years. Retire early if you can. Money means nothing if you don't have someone to enjoy life with.Im 67, and never thought this would happen so soon.

[@mikehand8639]

The big problem I’m finding is the technology. I’ve been having trouble with my 22 street glide and they’re so-called master tech. Can’t seem to fix it. It’s been going on for about six months poor training the technologies just gotten too much ,they can’t keep them on the road in my opinion

[@BoDean52]

@@mikehand8639 that’s awful

[@TacticalHamsterDance]

Interesting. Personally, I don't really know anyone who ended after ~3 years, it mostly seems if they can last 1-1.5 years, they can last a really long time. (Personally I've only been riding for ~10 years so my PoV might be slightly skewed.) I don't know many HD or even general cruiser riders though, so that may be the thing - can they not just look at the other manufacturers who do not seem to suffer from the same problem, and copy what they do? There were some signs, yes, but now they mostly stopped at Pan Am and doubled down on cruisers instead, which is just a fraction of general motorcycle market.

[@whskywolf]

Congratulations on your anniversary and have safe and fun trip. I rode for several years had three different bikes, back then was mixed opinion of Harleys being the mid 80s, I had issues with one bike and it stopped on the interstate one day and I got fed up and sold it. Was almost 30 years before got another bike, mainly due I wanted a Harley and well could not afford one. Now it my every day rider, my only source of transportation.

[@BoDean52]

Appreciate that brother

[@eliinthewolverinestate6729]

I am interested in Harleys. I like the fast x Harley. But would rather buy a Buell super touring. Don't think newer Harley electronics will age well. I don't need a huge engine either. I understand that it's needed for heavy bikes. I rode off-road before riding roads. Already dumped my current used road bike. Off-road it's common to dump or crash. I have more people to ride off-road than on road. Been thinking of getting starter dirt bikes for the kids.

[@ericmcelroy6970]

52yrs old. Been riding 40yrs. In my opinion, the new bikes lack character and just don’t appeal to me. I’ve had a couple of the first gen M8 models and they are great but the new ones I’m just like, they lost me. I still and will always ride Harley’s for my street bikes, but it won’t be these new ones.

[@ronisley9716]

I gotta say I bought my new Harley from the dealership in 2016. I can safely say this is the last motorcycle I will buy. The riding scene here in Michigan is much different than from where I came from. I’m a member of the American Legion Riders and I’ve tried HOG here. I do enjoy riding with others, I don’t mind riding in big groups that are going somewhere. I don’t like canned parade rides. I can honestly see the brand being in trouble. I spend zero time or dollars at them. I don’t even currently own a tee shirt from one of them, The oldest dealership in Michigan, Perry HD in Kalamazoo, closed its doors last year.

[@my.motorrad]

Starting to sound like when people get involved in other pursuits, like a gym membership, martial arts, musical instruments etc and stop after not that longI(or owning a boat, What's the old saw, what are the two happiest days in a boat owner's life?). I also have to wonder if brand tribalism in general is weakening too. People might go for the latest thing and then find something else shortly down the road. In the internet/social media age, attention spans have shortened dramatically. I could see where riding and driving become subscription based, just like everything else. No more long term commitments.

[@BoDean52]

No kidding on the short attention spans

[@scoutandscooter]

I don't ride much because of Texas drivers,.and there is nothing to see. I used to ride upstate NY. Catskills, Berskhires and no traffic.

[@BoDean52]

I am for the no traffic deal!

[@brianrichards517]

Hey just had a question is hdr ok? Haven't seen anything from him for a while

[@BoDean52]

I’m sure it’s just his teaching job

[@speaktruth247]

Also, I live in Los Angeles, CA. Lot's of crazy drivers and traffic. Not fun to ride here.

[@BoDean52]

I imagine you definitely need to get out of town

[@levialston518]

My wife used to ride with me before my accident think she hasn't gotten over the shock this was back in 2020

[@wdurazo22]

In Cali everyone is texting and vaping

[@BoDean52]

Our world sure has changed, hasn’t it?

[@feloniousmonk3049]

And smoking pot on the way home from work, I smell it, all the time, when on the road then.

[@thomascarpenter7415]

It’s not considered “ a lifestyle “ ( riding bikes longterm ) anymore …. I believe this will change eventually, now will the MC still be around then who knows ! I think it might be time for “ Then came Bronson 2.0 “ to come out on tv

[@genebechinski9851]

I had an uncle that rode. My brother and I still ride! Oh, my boy rides also! So, my family rides.

[@BoDean52]

The best!

[@AlbertK-eq5gd]

When HD went back to building machines that needed regular internal engine maintenance starting in 2000 and they want a premium price for everything it was time to spend that money elsewhere. I got 3 Harleys I'm 67 my older bikes do everything a new one does except cost a lot of money to keep on the road my favorite one is 56 years old. The difference today is not many folks look at it being a lifestyle anymore and it is getting more dangerous to ride.

[@robbyclark6915]

When your first bike is a 700 lb or more Harley, then you're severely limiting the potential of enjoying your experience! Harley doesn't have good options for the 1st time rider that don't require an extreme investment and are really beginner friendly. The nightster is their smallest displacement, lightest weight, beginner friendly bike, and it's the only 975 option. At 480 lbs, and rider modes, it could definitely work, but it's north of $10k. $12k, for that matter! Then you'll inevitably have to get a sissy bar, bags, risers, windscreen, whatever. I also see people having a lot of electrical issues with it. If Harley can't sell someone a new motorcycle and keep them on it for more than 3 years, then maybe they should've listened to this guy that used work there? His name is Matt.

[@WhisperingWolf1]

I have been riding for over 45 years I do not like the newer bikes, no gps, abs etc. regular disapply, people have forgotten what it to really ride. just go out and no distractions , I also fix all my own bikes you cannot do that with the new ones now ai is starting to be put in new bikes no way for me

[@MCTeck]

I like your mirrors! Wide angle outboard mirrors are larger than the stick on ones I have been installing on all my bikes for years. They really help! One of my bikes is a Victory Cross Country 8 Ball [all blacked out] 17k OTD in 2015. Similar to a Street Glide. One of the reasons that many young people do not ride motorcycles is that they have been ,"Woked ". Anti motorcycle and Pro Communist /Socialist. BTW, been riding for 55 yrs. Motorcycles are about Freedom, Woke is not!

[@thanosetsitty1896]

My son who’s 21 started riding sport bikes over the summer got hit from the left and suffered a bunch of broken bones. Don’t think he’s going to riding again.

[@BoDean52]

Has he recovered, that’s awful

[@sportyonetaubert5923]

That's terrible, praying for his full recovery 🙏

[@mikeskidmore6754]

You have to give $59.00 to HD to be a H.O.G. member, forget that. H.D. does not sell any entry level motorcycles anymore. Did you buy your bike at Mowtown HD in Taylor MI? I guess they are the largest volume dealer in the USA for 1 location. I went to the Mansfield Chicken Broil in 2019.

[@BoDean52]

I did not buy my bike from Motown. I got it from Capitol Harley.

[@razorback6098]

Bob, thanks for the great synopsis. I am 67 and plan on purchasing a Harley Breakout after the first of the year. I have been riding for 53 years and will continue to do so until I can't. I have two great Harley dealerships in my area and both are part of the same ownership. To be honest, when the Harley CEO went the woke route, I initially felt I would not purchase another Harley, until I read another post on youtube that got my attention. Boycotting Harley is going to hurt the local dealers who probably have no control what corporate does. Secondly, if we boycotted every corporation that had woke policies, we likely wouldn't be buying anything. People would probably be stunned at the number of common products we buy from companies that quietly have DEI or woke policies in place. Thirdly, because I want my local dealerships to continue to exist, I am buying to help them. This does not mean I agree with the corporate woke mindset. On the contrary I strictly oppose their stance. Those of us who are hard core riders are going to continue to ride whether it is in a group or by ourselves. I am content either way. Just my two cents worth.

[@kevindecker9444]

All I know is this. I just sold my BMW on Cycle Trader. There were only 200 BMWs listed for sale in the entire country. HD was in the thousands. I keep reading horror stories about the bikes breaking down brand new with under 100 miles. I also heard issues with rear cylinder head gasket blowing due to a lack of cooling air. Also, HD would cook the rider at a red light. Engine and exhaust heat was horrible in the GA sun: 105F. I hated riding my HD in the summer. Then HD came out with all blacked-out engines which I HATED. I like Chrome. Then they went woke. I won't ever buy another HD.

[@Iwanncamp]

I fall into the category of not having a riding partner. My son moved out to Arizona and my uncle has had health issues

[@frankfurther3828]

The Motor Company and the products are mere caricatures of what once was. There isn't a dealer mechanic alive that can say how many engines and variants were made after the company died in 1999. Long gone are the days when a buyer could buy new and plan to keep his bike for the rest of his life. HD Inc's BEST days were when they made TWO engines and produced 75k to 150k units per year. Now this conglomerate-owned joke of a company creates overpriced, over-teched, under-tested temporary-use garbage and the junkyards will be filled with today's disposable crap while the pre-1999 bikes will continue to soldier on with ZERO support from the factory. F Jochen, F HOG, F VVT, F Fraud Glide, FCVO, FHD, and F the Karens who are pre-occupied with any company's DEI policy, which have ZERO effect on the end user. thank you

[@larryj8924]

Well said. This company shift has a long tail on it and will likely signal the end of Harley Davidson for a 2nd time since AMF in 1969-81.

[@frankfurther3828]

@@larryj8924 I wish AMF would come back and take over now.

[@josephlees370]

I think a lot of Harely's struggles are quality control, its always been an issue with their bikes. For instance, I have a 24 Panam CVO that is currently having engine work done with only 1900 miles on it. Its inexcusable to have a bike that is that new and expensive already having engine issues. I now have trust issues with a bike that I just got and have the warm and fuzzies about adventuring on my new adventure bike.

[@BoDean52]

That is awful, especially after you spent that much money

[@josephlees370]

@@BoDean52 i agree

[@barendfourie6687]

I'm getting ready to sell some of my bikes because of trust issues. When I was putting my gear together for a 10 day trip I realized I was packing for a breakdown trip and also looking for a route not to far away from dealerships. So now they are up for sale then I'm going back to my original cruiser.

[@BoDean52]

@@barendfourie6687 don’t need to worry about that stuff for sure

[@josephlees370]

@@barendfourie6687 yeah it sucks when you are preparing for the inevitable breakdown and not for the weather

[@RidingwithDRod]

I agree on those reasons to some extent but I honestly believe the average Harley rider is an aging demographic. That coupled with expensive bikes that only more mature and financially capable buyers can afford which brings us back to the age thing. They give it a few years and then realize they’re getting too old for it. I think the cvo st performance bagger models is a step in the right direction in terms of reaching out to a younger generation. Again pricing would be an issue but if Harley can figure that out they can survive this phase. Look at the growing market of low rider st owners. Mostly people in their 30s. They could have opts for a sport bike but they chose Harley for a reason. Performance and customization along with the Harley culture makes it a winning combination

[@id10tcertified]

Heaps of people buy new bikes and rarely ride them then a few years later sell them hence there’s a lot of very low mileage bikes that look near new for sale and many are less than half the cost of a new one, I can buy a nice 5 year old Road Glide with pretty much everything done that I want for around half the price of a new one… I just bought a low klm used Sport Glide with a 21” Breakout front wheel, Corbin and Sundowner seats, bags, bar and rack, larger screen, small boards up front, indicators replaced with small leds, exhaust, cam, dyno tuned and a few other bits plus all the oem gear for less than a 3rd the price of a new CVOST Road Glide which in Australia amounts to a difference of $42,000 AUD, is the CVOSTRG worth $42k more? No damned way, I could buy a good used RG and build it up myself with parts I want and end up with a bike near perfect for me for at least minimum of $20k less. I’m 69 btw, I raced BMW S1000RR’s for 8 years as well as others and did all my own gear so I know the difference between a properly set up bike and yeah it’s ok… Most of my road riding was on old British bikes and WLA Harleys (we couldn’t afford new ones here) since 1971 I’ve been bikeless for maybe 8 months in total, bought 4 new bikes, built over 40 engineered bikes, repaired so many to sell I forgot, all up close to 400, I had a deposit on a new CVOSTRG, I figured why not, I’m old and it can be my last fling but after thinking about it it’s just plain not worth it at least not to me, I can build them but for someone like me who never did their own work or rides hard enough to notice the difference between good and perfect I get it and look at the last ST with the 117 motor, people are trying to sell them for more than a new 2024 117ci that’s a better all round bike so what’s going to happen to these 121’s? My bet is by the time the people who’ve financed them have paid them off the new bikes will push the used price down to half ish.

[@leudwigvonshwartsenhelm3624]

They should reproduce "classics." Top sellers from years ago. (Using the old engines) And make them the price that they were years ago.

[@briananderson4355]

The smog Nazis say no..

[@harryhowell5644]

There is a very small group of people who can afford a Harley Davidson. I was mid 50 s before I could buy one new. Now everyone is so scared of everything good luck with the next generation!

[@dougm5231]

Out of your 3 reasons, only #2 makes since.. To me the #1 reason is the cost to maintain the bike. New riders don't factor in the maintenance cost when buying them, so then they get the sticker shock again and again after purchase. Also, right now interest rates are sky high.. so people ain't buying.

[@BoDean52]

I don’t disagree. I’m just stating the three facts that the motor company says the problem.

[@charlesprice7608]

Interest rates on a new Harley at my dealership is 3.99% doesn’t sound sky high to me. Still not buying a new bike though. To much cheap, low mileage garage furniture out there to pick from.

[@dougm5231]

@@charlesprice7608 yea that 3.99% is 84 months and 10% down for cruisers, and 96 months for the touring models. otherwise it's 6.24% with 0 down.

[@charlesprice7608]

@@dougm5231 I just picked up a 2009 Fat Bob with 6,500 miles. New tires, battery, and freshly serviced for $6,000. Showroom clean. Toys are the first thing to go when times get tough.

[@brookcampbell2940]

Build an FXR 2.0! They need to excite those riders out there that think H-D is stale. There are plenty of riders who have multiple bikes that have ridden and will ride for years to come. We all don’t want baggers! There is a reason the over hyped Buell Super Cruiser is garnering attention. H-D can build this bike over this weekend combining a Road King Classic chassis and 117” center cooled motor with a Low Rider ST front end, tank, and small bags.

[@justins380]

I tried my HOG chapter. It was a bunch of boomers that could not stay on subject . They were rude to me when I first got there because I didn't know I was suppose to sign in. They had a gun raffle and sign in sheet on the same table so I thought it was just for the raffle. The poor old guy trying to talk in the microphone was standing in front of the PA speaker so the feed back was awful for all 3 meetings I went to. Then guys were asking stupid questions trying to be funny that was dragging the meeting on. I can keep going but I don't want to ramble too much. My point is I believe they only want people like them there and anyone under 55 don't fit in. Im 43. When your older clientele runs off younger riders you may have an issues.

[@BoDean52]

That surprises me normally I’m seeing people well over 60 around here in those. Still no way to treat people.

[@MicahBell_1860]

Can I ask, Bob, is there a learner bike requirement in the States? I know different laws in different states, just like here in Australia, but overall, the majority here is less than 650cc (39.665ci) with a horsepower limit. What is the general rule overall, in the States?

[@BoDean52]

At least in the state of Michigan, where I live, you have to pass a written and riders test. If you do the Harley Davidson training, that qualifies.

[@MicahBell_1860]

So you can ride a Harvey Danielson on your learner's & provisional licence @@BoDean52 ?

[@Candywarhol]

I just took the HD MSF class in BoDean's home state. Most of the bikes were small 350cc units. After passing the class, I could have quite legally gone to a dealer and bought/rode a 2000-ish cc bike with NO other experience. Also, AFAIK, engine size is NOT a limiting factor for persons who possess only learners permits. ¡Viva Murka!