Have you felt lied to or deceived by the church? | SU Podcast with Steven Harper

[@lukesteele4510]

I am one who has experienced actual betrayal from people in and representing the Church. As young as 9 I had to reconcile difficult practices which split my extended family into a spectrum of fanatical extremes both for and against the church. For me the Book of Mormon and the faith it inspired in Christ were the deciding factor to persevere even in the face of betrayal and difficult questions. A few years ago I experienced an increased understanding of grace from an outside source that then caused me to realize that I had been taught that in the church without realizing it. I have had many faith crisis in my lifetime and it always came back to Book of Mormon, God, Christ. Without the Book of Mormon I would probably doubt God and Christ even though in my core I have always known God is REAL. So even when I didn't have the answer to difficult questions I had faith that I would find it eventually sufficient to support what I knew was true. God, Christ, Book of Mormon, Joseph being our prophet, living prophets, and this being the Lord's church. I guess this is a long winded way of saying I agree with Steven that every significant question for me comes back to Book of Mormon and Jesus Christ. Even the question of Christ comes back to Book of Mormon for me.

[@mycatwould]

Wow, as I read this, I could have written this almost exactly from my own experience. So many times I’ve had events that have caused a lot of hurt from - and distrust in - imperfect people. But it always comes down to my 100% sure confirmation that God lives, Christ is resurrected and lives and governs his church through living prophets, beginning with Joseph Smith in this last dispensation, and that the Book of Mormon is a true record.

[@winyvillatoro7618]

Wow! I loved this interview! Charity, Responsibility, Choosing, studying, but, most importantly, Jesus Christ! Greetings from my Beauty Guatemala!

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@SarahSied]

I love this. The Book of Mormon is a big rock in my testimony. I love it and the spiritual experiences I've had with it in the past fills my heart with joy. I know no one man could have created it. I know it's inspired by God. I know it. Although comprehending moe about church history has put my faith in question, The Book of Mormon is the miracle that keeps me going.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Beautiful testimony!!

[@bobjensen8040]

I know you meant "no man" and not just "no one man" could have concocted all the scriptures we have. I too had that and so I understand what you are saying. Thank you.

[@markforbes1537]

Great conversation. Jesus Christ is the answer. Take responsibility for your testimony.

[@wandagurr4763]

Jake, just listened to this interview! I learned that I have a greater responsibility to study and research on my own and not expect "the Church" to spoon feed me everything I think I should know. I'll be doing way more study in the scriptures and asking God for more truth. This is what President Nelson asked us to do last conference too. This blessed my life! Thank you.

[@beckischreyer]

My dad always told me these details from church history. He told me in an open way… along with the truth that every human on earth was fallible… including apostles and prophets…. And the Lord works with them anyway ❤ To compare to the Pope… Catholics are taught that he’s infallible… but they don’t believe it. Latter Day Saints are taught their prophets and apostles are imperfect and fallible … but they often don’t believe that ❤❤

[@pcwinstead]

22:40 does going to church every week, going to seminary all four years, serving a mission, attending the temple, using church produced manuals alongside the scriptures, reading all the standard works multiple times, serving in elders quorom and sunday school presidency, teaching from the manual, attending EFY and Education Week count as being personally responsible for learning the gospel? Funny how I didn't hear about Joseph Smith being a polygamist until I was 36 years old despite all that. My bad /s

[@pattykake7195]

Add to that polyandry… marrying other men’s wives, as well as 14 year olds, and all behind poor Emma’s back… nasty stuff..😬

[@brettmajeske3525]

The LDS Church is not a monolith, and for the most part the teachers and leaders are just ordinary people struggling along like everyone else. Many members didn't have teachers comfortable talking about difficult subjects, but again, many members did. We talked about Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage in seminary back in the 80s. My Institute Teacher talked about the problems with the translation of the book of Abraham. It can seem like gaslighting when different members express different experiences from each other. Teachers who have read the Church histories written by Roberts, Witdsoe, and Hinkley are going to have very different understandings than those who only read McConkie and JFS.

[@six1nyne]

I was 19 when i looked into church history just before my mish im now 40 and happily married to the lds faith. The fact that u made it to 36 without looking into what u were into says a ton. Why after 36 years of bliss would u be uncomfortable with it all of a sudden? The spirit that u felt and all those sacred experiences are what null and void? Cmon man. This the hinge point the prophets spoke of before the pandemic and many of yall are failing its all good tho we wouldnt have cool anti mormon sayings like gaslighting, and mental gymnastics classics. I like to think of myself as a spiritual giant and i can leap mormon history in a single bound.

[@pattykake7195]

@@six1nyne Good for you spiritual giant….👏🏾 Many others who have been remorselessly gaslit leap right out the exit door.

[@alexblake5743]

Sounds like you never read section 132. Did you know that prophets in the Bible had multiple wives?

[@mountainsmotorcyclesandmom7411]

Excellent. Thank you. This spoke to my heart.

[@matthewglosenger3180]

For me, the doubts about church history and policy is just as important to my testimony as the facts are. There isn't any (so far) controversies that have come into my space in 50 years of living where I can't (eventually) see the perspective in a better (though not perfect) light. To me, the gospel is AMAZING at both its simplicity AND in it's depth. Great job putting this conversation out there.

[@jaybravo2199]

16:59, with all due respect, this is classic gas lighting which only further alienates those members who are now just learning about some uncomfortable aspects of church history. Even now, there are many items of church history which a member must go outside of official church sources to learn and understand, so to place the blame on the surprised member who learns about things which were not taught or even obscured is a gross misrepresentation and slap in the face of someone experiencing a so called faith crisis. Furthermore, much of the information now being released by the church was once considered anti-mormon. To further complicate the issue of blaming members for their own faith crisis, Elder Packer said the following about academic honesty of church employees... "Those of you who are employed by the Church have a special responsibility to build faith, not destroy it … Those who have carefully purged their work of any religious faith in the name of academic freedom or so-called honesty ought not expect to be accommodated in their researches or to be paid by the Church to do it.” Steven Harper... you're a smart guy, you can do better.

[@quemaspana]

I don't expect the Church to know everything, but I do expect it to not actively obscure, and make it more difficult to find the truth. I expect the Church to repent when they make mistakes. Did you know that there is STILL no quote or comment by any prophet that condemns the common belief that black people are descended from Cain? They have explicitly NOT acknowledged past racism, treatment of native americans, sexism, etc. I don't expect my Church to teach me everything, but I do expect my Church to make "documentary hypothesis" and "plural marriage" available and permissible. Instead, I was taught for decades that looking into these things was "anti-mormon" literature. There was simply no faithful source available.

[@germanslice]

@@quemaspana You can't expect the Ruler of this Universe to reveal everything. For God doesn't operate that way because he does conceal things for his own wise purposes and those who think he should just reveal all things or in other words 'Demand a Sign' or expect his leaders to be totally infalliable, have a gross misunderstanding of God and his servants the prophets. Since no prophet of God is absolutely flawless or perfect in this mortal life.. Moses made mistakes and had to be corrected by God and so did Jonah and others. But also the Church leaders also have to obey God's wishes so if God says not to reveal something then they have to obey God to conceal it until the time the Lord sees fit to reveal that knowledge to the Saints or revelation.. For the Church does receives knowledge from God all the time but cannot reveal all of what it does receive because the Lord has told the leaders to not reveal everything because God wants to try and test the faith of his people to see if they will receive the things that hes been willing to reveal by faith, and if not and they say we need no more then he will take away the things he has given and will hide up the rest and they will dwindle away in unbelief.... God's argument is if the Saints in Zion are not going to be willing to obey the laws that are in Zion, and going to be disobedient then why should he reveal more of his mysteries.. Those who know the doctrines in the Church who are faithful and obedient know that God reveals more to those who are faithful and obedient to him. For he has told us that he will only reveal the mysteries of his kingdom only to those who love and obey him. Those among the Saints who who do lift up their heel against the Lord's Annointed Servants and speak evil against the Living Oracles of God are children of disobedience themselves. And that is what the Lord Personally Himself Thinks of those who fault-find with the leaders of the Church that he has Appointed and the Prophet that he has set in place to be his Mouthpiece on the Earth today to the Saints which is President Nelson. A Prophet for Hard times. The Lord has called him up for this particular time to lead the Church....For God works line by line, precept by precept, here a little, there a little. (Isaiah) Hes always worked that way with Mortal men. That's why certain things in the Church that are not going to be all known yet not until the Lord sees fit to reveal the rest of the Ongoing Restoration in his own due time and way which President Nelson has explained and why Church Leaders have both strengths and also weaknesses and we need to learn as members to get on with them in our wards, and why we have to learn to be Paitent with our leaders shortcomings and weaknesses as well as paitent with our own weaknesses and shortcomings as they do at time make errors just like any other mortal does because our leaders are mortal men. For that's all God has to work with and God works with imperfect people and corrects them and tutors them along the way. So I see no problem or conflict with God way of tutoring us with imperfect leaders and God not revealing all things to us when people with limited mortal perspective try to demand that God reveal everything. God don't reveal everything all at once.

[@quemaspana]

@@germanslice Prophets of long ago and today have repeatedly stated that if you follow them they will not lead you astray. If you followed Brigham Young and others you would have believed slavery was not only ok, but that Blacks were cursed descendents from Cain. You would have believed Native Americans were Lamanites. I trusted leaders when they said they had special access to God because they say they have special access to God. It turns out that they were learning line upon line just like me and inflated significantly their special access by using phrases like "This saith the Lord" and "Special witnesses of Christ." What do those mean if you are correct? You say to not ask for a sign, but all I want is an answer to a prayer and I would be ok. Moroni 10:3-5 was written to the Lamanites (whoever they are) so maybe it doesn't apply to me? A clear unambiguous answer is all I ask.

[@germanslice]

I follow the living prophets, seers, and revelaors that are on the earth today. Well we receive an answer to prayer when we live the doctrines of the gospel as well as read the scriptures. As Jesus had taught, if any man shall do his will, he will know whether the doctrine be of myself, or of God. So Again God the Father is a separate being from Jesus Christ that Jesus loves and worships. John 20:17.

[@quemaspana]

@@germanslice I followed the doctrine for 35 years. I knew for myself it was not of God.

[@CGeeThompkins]

Loved this message. Thanks so much for your thoughts. I believe that Jesus is the Christ!

[@bryancsimmons]

Steve........32:29 the issue at hand is not if we choose to believe the facts in spite of the bad things that happened in history, the issue is we WERE never taught the bad parts of history AND if we ever did, we were told that it did not happen that way and we were being misled.

[@RaeCarson]

Furthermore, church members are still taught to revere and even extol all past leadership of the church. The truth (when it's negative or even merely less than complimentary) is not only deliberately obfuscated, membership is told that they're apostate-adjacent if they even attempt to seek out these aforementioned hidden truths. Complete lack of transparency is NOT merely "things becoming more difficult." It's systemic burying of unpleasant history. People can conceivably forgive past trespasses, PROVIDED THEY GET TO KNOW ABOUT THEM in a timely manner, but the main issue now is that PRESENT CONTEMPORARY leadership continues to actively participate in this white-washing of church history. How on earth is that still okay!?!

[@bobjensen8040]

Steven Harper eloquently nails it! If I had not called on God to save me from pain, I would not have had the motivation to search the scriptures sufficiently to come to the realization that they all came from God. At that realization I asked for a confirmation from Him, that I would not forget and would never deny. I can tell you that I did get that confirmation. And that became my absolute anchor through everything, even leaving the church for a time. Beyond that I have found that the Book of Mormon over all other scriptures and books is the one that opens the windows of Heaven. Above all, as mentioned here, Jesus has given us all we need to be right with Him and the world. The answer is always Jesus the Christ.

[@segbair]

Thank you both. The tone of this is just what I needed today.

[@jbc6466]

From the words of the living prophet on the earth today, "In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost." This gift is available to all Gods children. Its impossible to be confused in a world of confusion when one truly has tasted of this fruit, and keeps its flame alive.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

Wonderful interview! So enlightening and inspiring! ☀️💕

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@britty4755]

10:00 There is a difference between saying something hurtful, and claiming he is a prophet of God- a direct line of contact with our creator- and using racist doctrine to not allow people into the temple, sealed to their family, and God's highest exaltation. That deserves critique, and critical thinking or else you are just getting punked. Anyone that represents the character or God on earth needs to make sure that they are representing the correct character. The question to be asked is if Brigham Young was representing that correct character of God. If the answer is 'no' then you need to critically question his authority. For me, if he created doctrine that excluded African Americans and said it was from God then we are to believe God favours people (even though it says he doesn't in the BOM his actions supposedly say show he does via revelation) , especially white people. Like, we need to really stop and think how messed up all that doctrine was. Just imagine being black and hearing that spoken. Messed up. And to me, that has not been my experience with the holy spirit so therefore I conclude Brigham Young has an incorrect view of the character of God, and therefore was preaching incorrect doctrine and principles.

[@ultraviolet257]

This is the magnitude of Agency. God has worked through and with prophets of old that have character weaknesses and actively partake in choices that hurt people. My view is that God knows the beginning,middle, and end. He knows what can be witheld and what can be released at when to bring glory to HIS Narrative and the cultivation of His children. Where alot of us are caught up is in the humanity of prostrated repentance. It soothes the natural man's sensibilities and fragilties. Don't get me wrong ,I believe some level of justice will be recieve on earth (which is a level 1 staging of our exsistance), but Earth was never meat to be a type of heaven on earth..not untill Christ comes. Yes many of the people in callings althrough this church are racist, but I as a black person give it to God. I don't trust them further than a God ordained situation or work that I am called to do with them to build Zion. We have to remember we are only on the first stages of eternal maturation to the eventual goal of Godhood. We are still to spft in formation as humans for us to place the mantle of perfection on our shoulders. Like the scriptures different group of people had a tendency to suffer and struggle with specific sins. With white people historically it has been racism and brutally mishandling their interactions with their Godly siblings. Now That sounds like a Cain curse. Anyways remember God loves you and has a plan for you. We are valuable creations of Him, and He isn't finished with us yet. Soo in short, let's expect there to be cracks in Fine China.

[@juicyjames2074]

This is something that the church admits in the gospel topic essays. You can tell the church implied that Brigham Young was relying more on opinion than revelation when he announced that black people couldn't hold the priesthood (considering that the announcement was never church policy.) They noted that southern slaveowners moved into Utah, and if that doesn't indicates Brigham's motives, McConkie himself says that the announcement was based on "limited understanding" which is a backhanded statement saying "it wasn't revelation of God, we're just racist." The emphasis on southern slaveowners explains a lot about the church. Church culture and leadership lead by southern influence would explain the lack of condemnation for homophobia, high depression and no retention in LGBQT members, cult-like conservative views, coercion, racism, or and more toxicity in the church. I wish it wasn't the case because this influence indoctrinates/dictates individuals to love God rather than allow them to establish a relationship between themselves and God.

[@britty4755]

@@juicyjames2074 I think that people of the Old Testament had a different definition of a prophet than we do. They didn't have the hierarchy of authority that we do. They also were able to test their prophets (we pray to know they are true, but also we make an oath to follow them so it isn't genuine in my opinion), something that we don't practice within the church, although it is a biblical principle. Because of this I think we need to be aware of some points. 1. Yes! Prophets made mistakes, and they always pointed us to God as the only perfect being. Yet the mistakes they made was not being preached from the pulpit as something that was OK to do. David was not saying it was ok for everyone to rape women, kill their husbands, and then marry them. Abraham was not saying it was ok to have sex with a handmaiden, and Noah was not saying it was ok to get drunk. They understood these were their own personal faults that were offensive to God. The strange thing about Brigham is that he was saying racism was OK, and that it was from God. That is disturbing. 2. God gave out his justice to the prophets that sinned in front of him. He didn't let Moses reach the promise land, He let the baby of David die and left him for a while, and he rejected the baby born from Abrahams hand maiden as not a legitimate heir. There were strict consequences for their actions. Yet in our culture though we know that prophets aren't perfect we still treat them as if they are. It is somewhat taboo to critique Mormon prophets. 3. During Brigham's time up until around the 1960s and 70s those teachings were considered doctrine and were held beliefs. Even I remember being told it was because of the curse of Cain, being less valiant, etc. My mom was also told by her bishop not to marry my dad because he was black and it was a sin to marry interracially. There is unfortunately a great white washing and downplaying of the severity of what was being taught from the past. It was incredibly disturbing and lingers subconsciously today. 4. Yes, culture influenced racist teachings from the church. It is a bummer, because we could have been like the other Christians such as Quakers who hid slaves in the underground railroad.

[@JB-sm5sm]

I can understand having mercy for Brigham Young, but mercy and accepting him as a prophet God are two different things. Brigham's rhetoric and leadership actively led to the deaths and suffering of thousands of people within his lifetime (see Mountain Meadows Massacre, the 1865-1872 Black Hawk War, and polygamy).

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

​@@JB-sm5smWell said.

[@DesertPrimrose]

I know they talk about how we shouldn't expect to know everything by the time we graduate from seminary, but I'm exceedingly grateful to my seminary teacher and my dad for addressing difficult topics and teaching me strategies for processing them when I encounter them.

[@quemaspana]

The problem isn't whether the glass is half full or half empty, the problem is, "is there water in the glass, or not"? Are Native Americans the Lamanites or not? Are Polynesians descended from Hagoth or not? Is the Book of Abraham an ancient document or not? Is the Book of Mormon a history or not? All of these questions are true or false, no matter if you are a half full or half empty person.

[@ahh-2-ahh]

My faith is in the LDS church and one of the issues that shook my faith was the Native American and Polynesians are Lamanite statement made by church leaders. When I was young that’s what I was taught. I almost lost my faith because of this, but I’ve tried hard to pray for answers. I was angry for a bit because I felt I was lied to but I have to remember that we are MEN and we are not perfect. As I prayed God has given me answers and comfort in my faith.

[@ericchilds9584]

Wow! I rarely listen to such lengthy content, but … Wow! I’m really glad I did! Can I use some of the ideas you-guys talked about in an upcoming sacrament talk? I Promise to give credit to you and Brother Steve Harper.

[@jeffreyturner4252]

When Steven answered your question on when I’m feeling disconnected disillusioned, Jesus Christ I got chills all throughout my body my eyes teared up and I felt a great peace and love come over me. This was a incredible interview. I have practiced what he expressed. To study the facts on my own cone to my own conclusion to hold to the facts I know to be true and to wait upon the Lord as he teaches me line upon line and precept upon precept.

[@DavidNellTheHarbinger]

I love yall, and I 100% agree

[@123mneil]

Love it.

[@kennethmoake1448]

This video is bringing up some fascinatingly divergent opinions about thr responsibility of the Church in teaching more obscure history, etc., especially those things that are generally considered negative. Some things to remember: 1) The purpose of the Church's teaching is to increase faith in Christ, and bring everything back to faith in Christ. There is more than enough to keep us busy on that front, so while it's good to know about events in Church history, and to learn about them can certainly be helpful to the Church's mission to gather Israel, the most efficient way to develop faith in the Savior is to have a basis in the fundamental doctrines so you can see all the rest accurately. The prophet Joseph said, "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it." Is it any wonder that the focus of the Church is where it is? Without the foundation in Christ's Gospel, none of the rest will make proper sense. 1 Corinthians teaches us this principle: "2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." Whether Joseph Smith used a hat in translation to block out the light from the seer stone is just not important in comparison. 2) Every person in the Church has a different experience with the depth of knowledge with respect to these more obscure topics in Church history. I don't remember when I learned about the priesthood ban or polygamy, but I for one was able to navigate it because I already had at least the beginnings of a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, the Prophet Joseph, and continuing revelation to prophets. It was interesting and thought-provoking, but I knew what I knew independent of other details like that. Maybe the question that should be asked is why you had a different experience coming to know these details than others did. Some do learn these things through Church materials/ classes / teachers and others do not. You cannot paint with a broad brush here. But the fact is that much does depend on initiative. And I do believe that God does shield some from truths they are not ready for, perhaps granting time for maturation of testimony. Milk before meat. 3) The truth of the Gospel does not depend on the behavior of mortals. That's all there is to that. Whether this member or that did this or that just doesn't bear on the true question- the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God chooses the weak and the simple to do his work (see Doctrine and Covenants 1 and the story of literally every human being to ever try to serve God). But he involves us not because He can't do His own work but precisely because of our imperfections: we need the experience to work through our own imperfections. Obtaining a testimony / conviction of whether the Church is true should not be attempted on any other grounds than those on which God has promised to give it; ask Him, read and study the scriptures. Seek His Spirit snd follow it. Your reason will not give you the depth of answer you will need, and you are not smart enough to find the answers by yourself. The answers will come on God's terms (e.g., Moroni 10) and not on yours.

[@PapaKryptoss]

Of all the problems you encounter in this life, there is one that towers above them all and is the least understood. The worst of all human conditions in this life is not poverty, sickness, loneliness, abuse, or war-as awful as those conditions are. The worst of all human conditions is the most common: it is to die. It is to die spiritually. It is to be separated from the presence of God, and in this life, His presence is His Spirit or power. That is the worst. Lawrence Corbridge

[@quemaspana]

"My goal is to continue having faith" ... if that is your goal, then you will probably succeed. If I were you, I'd make your goal finding truth, no matter the consequence. Take courage!

[@fabiankempazo7055]

Definitely. But I think we (humans) are very limited in the possibility to capture fundamental truths. For example quantum mechanics and what happens outside of space-time (and before the big bang) is just outside of our capability to understand. and these are the core aspects of existence and reality. How could we ever know if an entity outside of space-time ( = aka god) exists?

[@quemaspana]

@@fabiankempazo7055 If the existence of God is so esoteric and unknowable, then what functional difference does it make whether he exists or not?

[@beefmaster4]

Seeking truth is the first fundamental principle of mormonism as stated by Joseph Smith near the end of his life after he had matured some in his theology. Truth was also the catalyst for starting the church including accepting truth regardless of where it comes from. A good article was written about it by Don Bradley. The others are friendship (love) and relief to those in need.

[@quemaspana]

@@beefmaster4 Where I differ from Smith is that he believed faith is needed before truth is manifest. This is a recipe for confirmation bias. How do you personally guard against confirmation bias when searching for the truth of the gospel?

[@csmatteson]

What a beautiful episode. Thanks.

[@dinocollins720]

Another fantastic video!!! Thank you!

[@marymabey9858]

I just love listening to Steven Harper. I think it’s Interesting. I’m 61 and have known of so many of the hard things since I can remember. No memory of how this came to be. Parents, teachers, talks, seminary. I couldn’t pinpoint the early seeds of discovery. I feel blessed. I love this journey of faith! So many hard things to consider and beautiful vistas to enjoy. Discovering and proving the contraries of this faith experience (and life in general) Joseph Smith spoke about is enlightening, humbling and exhilarating! Thank you both for putting yourselves out there for others❤️.

[@kenhilker2507]

@4:30 There's also a lot at stake by staying in the church. If JS is a false prophet, following him might be upsetting yahweh. Or praying to God might be upsetting Vishnu. Or choosing a long life of peace might cause you to miss out on getting into Valhalla. Or dedicating 10% of your money and one day a week to any deity might cause you to miss out on amazing human experiences that secular Humanists pursue. There's always a lot at stake, no matter which path we commit too. That's no excuse to dig in and not critically examine your beliefs.

[@jordan-xe2yb]

TMI w/ the lengthy lead ups to the questions. Thank you.

[@shaylabateman07]

Great discussion! I love how he simply said Jesus. The answer to all of our questions is Jesus.

[@quemaspana]

I can't believe how many ads there are in this video.

[@quemaspana]

@@jayakron3076 You changed my life. I owe you a life debt. Many thanks!

[@NebjosaMeier]

I think the problem many face is interpreting sacred history. Even church leaders have said the book of Mormon is not a history book in the traditional sense of the word. Neither is the bible, and neither should church history be anything more than a vehicle for understanding God and Jesus. No historical account will ever survive total and unrelenting scrutiny of modern scholars, so it's pointless to base your faith in a historical record with it's many points of view and contradictions.

[@scottvance74]

18:00 - this is an excuse, and gaslighting at its finest. The seer stone in the hat. The church did not talk about this - not in 4 years of seminary - not in my BYU honors book of Mormon religion class in the 1990s. I read the scriptures - all of the standard works prior to age 15. yep. 10 times through the book of Mormon & completely through the bible. Full 2 year mission oversees where my mission president was literally an employee of the chruch history department. I KNEW the story of translation backwards and forwards. Urim and Thummim - magical glasses with diamond lenses. It is despicable for Steven to infer that we should have known about the seer stones and that they were used for 100% of the translation of the book of Mormon when the church taught us otherwise. Steven - you need to repent and find some empathy for those of us who really went the extra mile but still couldn't find truth.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Should have read back issues of the Ensign, or maybe Widtsoe's History of the Church. I don't know why you missed them, but they were not hidden.

[@weirdmormonshit9380]

@@brettmajeske3525 LOL

[@Selene13zz]

Anyone read 1984 lately? This is classic use of Thoughtcrime and Doublethink. “‘Who controls the past,’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.’” As well as who controls a man's thoughts can control his perception of the world. I grew up in the church in the 80's (the golden years of obfuscation) and had a father who was Bishop for about a decade, went to seminary like most other church kids and I was a good student, loved learning about things, and it was *actively* taught to us that the story of the BoM was that JS used the Urim and Thummim to directly translate the ancient text. There was no mention of a seer stone or a hat, just like so many other points of history that are coming out today on the internet, the leaders of the church were adamant about how things happened but left out most of the facts of history. Most of the actual facts I've learned since then have been from outside sources, or internal sources that I wasn't aware of and quote 'anti-mormon' resources pointed me to internal ones that no one talked about. Now that the historical facts are bleeding like an open wound, the church is once again changing the narrative to deny what so many of us experienced back in the day. They are actively changing the perception of their members' world view and, by doing so, changing the history of the church's actions.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@Selene13zz I will submit that you are attributing to "the Church" the actions of local teachers and leaders. There is not a single "Church Culture". I too grew up in the 70's and 80's, but I had Seminary Teachers that talked about Plural Marriage, including Joseph Smith, Institute Teachers that talked about Seer Stones and the BoA papyri. He kept photocopies of the 85 Ensign article that talked about the Seer Stones. Was every teacher equally open? No, and that is a problem. Was every teacher obfuscating? No. The lack of standardization created multiple different experiences under the umbrella of "the Church". It isn't a monolithic culture. Some places gave more credence to McConkie's Mormon Doctrine than they did to official Lesson Manuals. Others were almost the Church of Hugh Nibley and FARMS. Still other Wards and Stakes were more influenced by Neil Maxwell and John Witdsoe. The CES in the 70s and 80s had multiple debating philosophies. Some choose to follow the leadership of Packard, others Robert J Matthews. There never was a single narrative within the Church, even if it seemed that way in certain regions.

[@mrs.therapist6122]

I would agree. I never learned of the seer stones. Every picture in primary and sunday school are of him with the gold plates. You never see spectacles either... Marketing dept for the church thought seers stones doesn't look authentic and appears like folklore. so they never depict it. I think gaslighting is a good deduction. I am still a member but see how they shift the blame on you for not knowing. This is not right.

[@dadlifejourney228]

I feel like this is a little disingenuous. I have gone through my own faith journey and stages of feeling betrayed and lied to. I could say it is because I just bought the correlated materials and didn’t dive deep myself, but to be fair, it is completely unfair to say that “the church” wasn’t trying to keep many things under the rug. For decades we were told to only read certain things and that anything that we would see that made us uncomfortable was “anti-mormon”. It is complete revisionist history to not admit this whole problem with people feeling this way is a problem of the churches making. Just as they are trying to be “transparent” now with JS papers and gospel topics essays etc, they could have been like this for the last 60 years. It was a choice to correlate material and feed one narrative. To blame the members for this is wrong because if the members branched out to learn more about these things it was definitely frowned upon. There is no skirting around that.

[@Selene13zz]

Agreed. If the leaders would actually acknowledge the mistakes of the past and how they are willing to do better in the future, offer apologies to those they have wronged and change those beliefs which discriminate against others, and actively spread ideas that are truly transparent along with a humble offering of repentance (kind of like Jesus), the growth of the church might actually accelerate and become healthier. They are so good at teaching that members need to be humble, repentant and working toward being better, but they are awful at doing that themselves. They also seem to love to blame members on any failing instead of taking responsibility for their teaching these ideas to the members in the first place.

[@IBNED]

Books and "papers" have been available for a very long time. Always or often putting your best foot forward is standard and average for most of us. The only real truth is from God by receiving a revelation through the Holy Ghost. Evidences are secondary and filtered through men and their imperfections. I have a STRONG testimony from the Holy Ghost about the gospel of Jesus Christ. The institutional Church is a "tool" that God uses not a entity worthy of worship. When you can differentiate this difference we can move forward under inspiration that is valid from our creator.

[@nwigster436]

@@IBNED Yes, and up until recently, if you talked about what you read in those "books and papers" you were excommunicated.

[@IBNED]

@@nwigster436 NOT true....I have been involved in apologetics for a looooog time. No one has been excommunicated for reading such material. If you start prompting anti material over the Church then you become by your own actions an apostate. I have talked a LOT about issues that are true but not promoted by the Church with not even an interview with the Bishop about telling true events. All you need is solid evidence and you are on solid ground. Promote opinions and views based on personal understanding.....not so good. We really don't know what is in someone's mind and/or heart so let's give them some latitude and avoid the use of presentism in our judgment.

[@IBNED]

@@jamesoneil1388 You didn't offer any evidence of people being excommunicated for reading anti-mormon material which was the point you made. Warm-fuzzies is pretty nebulous. Receiving a witness from the Holy Spirit is an experience unique unto itself like explaining what an orange tastes like to someone who has never had one.

[@Ischyromys]

We can have charity for someone while also realizing that they were wrong and shouldn't be followed.

[@ronbrewer3493]

They were wrong .Does that mean we all need to be complete perfect.? I do not think so .wrong does that mean when a parent makes a mistake a child should not follow and learn understanding and forgiveness. Why do we always want to blame others for our weaknesses.

[@michaelpeterson6174]

Powerful video. Thank you. Steven Harper is amazing. He's helped a lot of people remain in the faith, or come back, who have been in a faith crisis.

[@astronomyjustforfun4595]

Gaslighting again. Why don't you just own the fact that certain things were PURPOSELY kept hidden. Even Elder Snow admits to this. We are not talking about difficult concepts. Historical information isn't like Chemistry or Quadratic equations. Simple things like polyandry, translation or the fact Joseph practiced polygamy. I have friends in their late 50's who are life long members call me a liar for suggesting Joseph was a polygamist. These are not difficult topics. But apparently the need to save the grandmothers in Sanpete valley is more important than transparency.

[@123mneil]

13:00 Interesting. I didn't despise the brethren or stop thinking that they are doing their best and that they truly believe what they teach. The facts just led me to the conclusion that they are men that are not mouthpieces of God I granted them charity as a man. I didn't have a problem doing that. I could not grant them charity as a mouthpiece of God. There is a difference. If you have a bad business deal and someone cheated you or kept the whole truth from you. You can grant them charity, but I am not sure it's wise to continue doing business with that person...

[@123mneil]

19:00 It's not that complicated to teach teenagers and young adults about JS's wives. If there was time to teach them about every last persecuted moment that JS and Emma went through, there was time to talk about the law of plural marriage and how it was kept secret from most of the Saints. It's okay to just say it. The internet pushed the correlation depart into telling the whole truth. Reading the talk given to the CES department, "the mantle is far greater than the intellect" sums it up quite well. Correlation believed that testimonies were more important than telling the whole truth.

[@123mneil]

44:00 Broken, human, troubled institution led by the Lord? Is that how the missionaries are selling it now?

[@dkbradshaw]

@@123mneil I did learn about polygamy in Sunday School, as well as many other odd topics, but it was only in passing. It is not part of the purpose of Sunday School or church in general--to bring us closer to Christ. I can''t think of a time in all of history that the true church, or "institution" was perfect. Even when Christ himself was leading it. It has always has problems, but for the most part, it is the most perfect that imperfect man can bring it to be and it serves its purpose.

[@Itgoesdowndownbaby]

Thanks for these videos guys! I'm one year from my mission and things like these "crisis" come to me whenever im studying church history. These videos always give me realizations and a sense clarity. Keep up the great work guys!

[@Starcraft98marine]

Have you looked into the CES letter that was *allegedly* debunked? It’s a good source for those that have many questions. Thing s like the multiple differing accounts of the first vision, the kinderhook plates, “the war of 1812 book of Napoleon, tyrant of the earth” which details things like two thousand warriors who suffered few casualties and a ball of “brass of curious workmanship” a man called Tecumsh (sounds like teancum) for me, these were the last straw.

[@wendyfoster5579]

@@Starcraft98marinebut yet you still watch these videos, sounds like you haven’t resolved much.

[@ancientanswers]

Solid

[@EpiqMusiq]

Best show ever.

[@andevious4743]

One of my favorite episodes. This guest was amazing.

[@clintstarr1625]

Joseph Smith admitted he had many faults none of the leaders of the church over the years have been perfect many have made mistakes and said things that we’re not exactly scripture. So if we are going to harbor resentment and the lack of forgiveness than the detriment is ours and ours alone for Christ said we must forgive all men including Brigham Young or it remains with us the greater sin

[@com-passion8288]

My math teacher don't get 10 % of my income and my life commitment, and never never said he was God mouth piece of earth . Blame the member for not finding the information you don't encourage.

[@DannyAGray]

What information is not encouraged???

[@michaelpeterson6174]

This "comment" - if you can call it that - is just a cheap slam on the Church. It misses the points he was making. I love tithing and it's been a huge blessing in my life, spiritually and temporally. I'm glad God hasn't left us alone and has called living prophets in our day. And it's false that the restored Church of Jesus Christ doesn't encourage us to find "information" - they do and always have, they just encourage credible and reliable sources, which I appreciate, and is common sense.

[@com-passion8288]

@@michaelpeterson6174 I'm happy for you if you're happy but some people require complete open honesty in their relationship especially when it comes to their salvation. If we don't have the facts we didn't consented.

[@com-passion8288]

@@DannyAGray the ces letter, oh yeah you can't read that,nevemind .

[@rconger384]

@@com-passion8288 Did you know the whole thing about the so called "CES Letter" has been debunked? Have you decide to read about it?

[@gregoryroberts9230]

I'm not angry that the Gospel history or teachings are getting more complex. I'm angry because it's inconsistent. When I am taught one thing as doctrine from a prophet, and then I learn that earlier prophets taught something completely contradictory as true doctrine, that's when I feel deceived and confused. Did Brigham Young say, "It is my opinion that black people are the cursed decendants of Cain, and that is why they cannot hold the priesthood"? No. He said that he knew for a fact that it was doctrine and that God made it known to him that this is the reason they cannot hold the priesthood. Then, every prophet and apostle since then, up until the ban was lifted in 1978, declared the same false doctrine to be the reason black men could not hold the priesthood and black people could not enter the temple for those essential saving ordinances. Now, modern church prophets and apostles disavow those false doctrine. Well which is it? Does 2+2=4 or does it equal 22? When the professional teachers, whose job it is to consistently teach correct math, can not even get it straight, then how am I supposed to believe anything they teach? Also, I really don't like the green paint on the walls.

[@23cottaw13]

I love this interview. I have experienced the same choices and the “two paths that diverged in a wood”.

[@bartoszczarnotta5806]

No, i do not think that you can say that church ever lied to us. But, the church do have fairly theologized view of history and it can have its impact. Elder Packer had once talk on that topic.

[@brettmajeske3525]

It wasn't just the Church, all of American culture avoided difficult history post WWII. It was a sort of communal PTSD.

[@rconger384]

@Bartosz - To your point, how else would any church view history except through a frame of theology?

[@bartoszczarnotta5806]

@@rconger384 Many churches do not theologize their history to an extent we do. Our theology is partly based on historical happenings in fairly recent past. I have been raised Catholic. I can assure you that average Catholic does not need a knowledge about Catholic history to believe. No one teaches Catholic history in typical Catholic religion classes. And conversely, we need historical knowledge to have firm testimonies.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@bartoszczarnotta5806 We must have attended very different Catholic High Schools. There was a lot of Catholic history taught, particularly that of St Francis.

[@bartoszczarnotta5806]

Well, Polish Catholicism is indeed very different from the American one.

[@ChristianAuditore14]

What if you are wrong?

[@thekolobsociety]

Then you lived a joy filled life of service. Congrats.

[@thekolobsociety]

@@jayakron3076 You seem so unhappy. Who takes time to comment negative things on a religion that they don't believe in?

[@45s262]

The glass half empty and for others half full. Love that. Heck ya.. choose to believe. Be positive. And you know what, notwithstanding all the facts in the world. There is something else at work for the building of our testimonies. That's the best. I call it, The Bolt From The Blue. Those moments that just wrench the heart and soul. It's the best. These things build my testimony. The well is so deep who can limit the ways and manifestations of the Holy Ghost. I suppose if I received greater my body would burst.

[@ZehnWaters]

No, I haven’t felt lied to. It’s impossible to cover literally every historical detail and many issues are viewed from different perspectives. The point of the church is point towards Jesus, not give a litany of historical controversies.

[@com-passion8288]

If a prophet said God told him one thing and another prophet said God told him the opposite. You don't think that something the leaders are obligated to teach.

[@ieatfriedpikmin]

I used to have this mindset... for me it's similar to "just put it on a shelf". Eventually though there just got to be too many major issues and inaccuracies I discovered to put on my shelf. These aren't minor bad quibbles.. these are very significant issues and there is a sense of betrayal when you first learn about them.

[@mykingdom7121]

Zhen waters. I agree with you.

[@SmokeDiv3r888]

Yeah I'm not sure what people are expecting. Nothing is covered up. Dig as deep as you like, but the point of church is to learn the doctrine of Christ.

[@ZehnWaters]

@@ieatfriedpikmin lol How is it even remotely the same as "put it on a shelf"? This is: no one could possibly have the time to cover literally every single historical issue. History is out there, study it. The church's job is to cover the gospel. You've got free time; study.

[@Celestian329]

Is this topic teaching us to question the teachings of the Church? I think these kind of things happen when we already knew too much. Are they anti-mormons?! 😮😮😮

[@ronbrewer3493]

Good hell some of the growing pains that we go through is hard .but can't you understand. That the essence of life is growth and to become and to overcome. Cannot you understand that it is mans weaknesses that keep us from God..I had polio when I was two years old..I would love to be on your show program. Give me a text call .

[@eabcool]

the more i listen, the more annoyed i get. "who is 'the church'? " how about the general authorities that left out a whole lot of stuff the they knew, about the BOM translation, joseph smith's history, etc, etc,

[@nae0067]

The problem is contradiction not complexity.

[@purplerain0517]

Honestly, no. Not the church. I've felt lied to, and deceived by people in the church, who've passed down their own interpretations of what they believe. My mom for example, has her own beliefs and opinions on homosexuality, and pretty much the entire LGBT community; none of them being very compassionate or loving. Imagine the irony that... I'm bi. Lol! 🤣😅 I grew up thinking attraction to the same sex is just a sin. It wasn't until I developed my own relationship with Jesus, and Heavenly Father, that I have developed my own understanding of the amazing diversity, and beauty of the LGBT part of His plan. We are all on a journey. Some of our journey is predestined, but our agency also plays a big part in how we act, or REact to the world around us. I feel lied to in the sense that I grew up thinking if you're gay, or bi, you can't be a faithful member. I dunno if it's because I'm a Taurus, or maybe my spirit is naturally stubborn.. but I HAD to make sense of the whole LDS+LGBT thing. I just kept trying to build my relationship with God, and eventually I discovered little experiences here and there that led to my own peace of mind that I AM capable of being a faithful member of His church, and still be bisexual. It's not easy. But, (thankfully and gratefully) I've had some undeniable, spiritual experiences that have kept one foot on solid ground, so to speak. If I know it to be true, then whatever other people say or do is either spiritually uplifting and empowering, or it's crap that I can throw in my faith garden to fertilize the soil.

[@purplerain0517]

@@elizabethkinnear7140 thank you for your comment! It's nice knowing there's others out there who understand. It reminds us we're not alone!

[@ronbrewer3493]

Good hell ....if I new everything I would be a God. I am not a God but nearther is a baby an adult..truly the essence of life is growth and to become and to overcome. Where there is increased opposition there is increased opportunity to grow up and become like our Heavenly Father. ..

[@45s262]

"If you don't believe that I am the Son of God then believe me for the works sake". If you don't believe in the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ then believe it for the very works sake. Such a marvelous work and wonder. The gathering of Israel. Everything. There is no greater work. This is the work of Jesus Christ.

[@KevinN3]

Remember. It's not a lie...if you believe it. -George Costanza

[@VOJTROCK]

Amazing thoughts!

[@mrs.therapist6122]

You guys struck a nerve with this video. Could you keep interviewing therapists instead? How about interviewing a therapist and asking them what not to say to an inactive member and what to say instead. Please do that in an upcoming video.

[@whyisgamora3721]

The problem is that the Book of Mormon being authentic does not imply that Brigham Young et al preserved the church established by Joseph Smith. There are many sects that claim the Book of Mormon as scripture. Is this guy intentionally missing the point?

[@michaelbennett7561]

I once wondered about that regarding the Reorganized church, now called the Community of Christ. Then I heard one of their leadership (a seventy) talk about the Book of Mormon, where he basically took the position that the Book of Mormon was fiction. I believe strongly in the Book of Mormon, and that convinced me that the line of authority did not pass down to that church, if that is their position with regards to the Book of Mormon.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

Anybody who looks for God in anybody other than God, is going to be. seriously disappointed. As for the head-in the-hat story, that has always been hearsay and not from anyone sympathetic to the mainstream LDS Church. The Church has no responsibility to preach or publish hearsay, especially from non-LDS sources.

[@benv7933]

16:59, 18:00. The church wasn't hiding it. It's all available for us to learn and figure out. Please stop blaming the church and do your own homework folks.

[@StevenBooks]

Yeah Joseph Fielding Smith didn't hide away that first "First Vision" account. Oh wait...

[@rconger384]

8:47 13:42 35:58 Brigham Young was the most progressive leader ANYWHERE with regard to the Native American. Why doesn't anyone give Brigham Young CREDIT for the way he was toward the Native Americans? Don't Red Lives Matter? Again, Brother Brigham was the most progressive leader ANYWHERE IN HIS TIME toward all Native Americans.

[@mrs.therapist6122]

I am a member and hate Bringham Young. He owned slaves and was a racist... not to mention all the wives. Also emna didnt like him and i side with emma. I am surprised that Black Lives Matter has not demanded all his statues be removed in Utah. Just my opinion. I am still active despite of his faults.

[@com-passion8288]

Brigham Young said God want all biracial people killed and this law will always be.

[@rconger384]

@@com-passion8288 I have charity toward the faults of Brigham Young.

[@mrs.therapist6122]

@@rconger384 I wrote a book on forgiveness and no where does it state you have to like the person that wronged you. So my charity is letting God take care of him.. however I still am disgusted by him. Not every one knows he owned slaves and that is suppressed history.

[@rconger384]

@@mrs.therapist6122 as I wrote, I have charity toward the faults of Brigham Young. There are other suppressed facts of history including the way Brigham Young was benevolent and definitely progressive toward the Native Americans when compared to every major leader of those times. I personally am disgusted with the abuse of Cecil Rhodes against Native Africans which went far beyond mere racism. And that is suppressed history.

[@Itgoesdowndownbaby]

YESSSSSS THOSE SAINTS BOOKS ARE THE BEST

[@quemaspana]

"Did Joseph Smith tell me the truth about the Book of Mormon, or lie to me?" There is a third option. That he told the truth, but was wrong. He might have believed that he was restoring the Book of Mormon but was wrong.

[@michaelbennett7561]

I really doubt it would have been possible for Joseph Smith to produce the Book of Mormon while under some delusion himself. For me, it really comes down to either it being from God, or Joseph Smith was a deliberate fraud. I don't think there is very much room for middle ground here.

[@stardustgirl2904]

It was a very different time in the church,and members we're very rough around the edges,they swore,drank, they smoked, they probably had some lude behavior, in some of the men. They came from different places and backgrounds,and different levels of secular education, there knowledge of life, and different people would of been unrelatable to them not really having experiences with other people! People have there own opinions, of on different things, none of us we're there can we even be certain these things we're really even said? People are human regardless, of being a Prophet of GOD 🙏🏼🙏🏽🙏🏿🙏🏽🙏🏼🙏🏽 no one walks on 🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊 WATER! If these things we're said, that was his own personal flaw, it doesn't change the truthfulness of the gospel! And Joseph Smith,sent missionaries to the islands, because every living soul has value in the eye's of the Lord! We have no idea what each of them went through,and how hard it was to alive in those times!

[@rconger384]

@stardustgirl to your point: Aside from the natural dangers to 19th century farmers and ranchers, the Utah pioneers faced death from disease the elements the Gentiles and the Natives. How would we of the 21st century like to homestead in a hostile place like the moon?

[@stardustgirl2904]

@@rconger384 I have a long history with the church, one of the first Bishops in Utah was from my family. And I had family in the Mormon Battalion. The church is true and you can feel it through the spirit!🙏🏻🙏🏼🙏🏽🙏🏿💕

[@mrs.therapist6122]

You said "none of us were there so we cant be certain of what they said". Actually your wrong. We have letters documents journals and eyewitness testimony. Exmormons are not guessers of what people said. They are smart people that have read historical evidence

[@stardustgirl2904]

@@mrs.therapist6122 I could say anything I want to, about your comment you left, but that doesn't make it true! Just because it's written down on paper dosen't make it true! People have biased opinions on certain things, and if they don't like you ,you can say anything about anyone! Besides if any of it is true, no one is perfect and we wouldn't know his reasoning behind his thoughts, people didn't have as much knowledge, about other people,and if he had negative family members around him, they could of taught him his views ,if in fact it actually happened. But none of this really matters, if someone wants to leave the church for any reason, they will just come up with any excuse, instead of just saying they can't adhere to the commandments and taking responsibility for their own actions!

[@mrs.therapist6122]

@@stardustgirl2904 you really are offensive to exmormons suggesting they leave because the cant keep the commandments. When I left I was keeping the commandments and continued to write for the church as a LDS author. I lived without sin while inactive. I didnt make up doctrine because of some need to not live the commandments. So you think people leave because they want to sin? That is the warped mentality of a lot of saints and it is hurtful and wrong.

[@mayaya1613]

This speaker was so insensitive to anyone that’s not white that the video only has like 200 likes lmao

[@mayaya1613]

I really enjoy hearing these podcasts, but I couldn’t stand this one. I love that the series is about a faith journey, but the speaker is the absolute worst one you could’ve chosen. I couldn’t even get past 13 minutes. It’s the constant gaslighting and the lack of understanding for me. Brigham young did say awfully hurtful things about POC. It’s not a “something that could be hurtful”, it was and is hurtful. The fact that he couldn’t even come out and say, “yeah, it was racist and extremely hurtful for a lot of our members” and danced around even painting him bad is awful lol why listen to him when he couldn’t even admit there was hurtful things and just leaves it to the audience as “it’s only hurtful if you perceive it that way”. Racism is racism, and it’s always hurtful.

[@kerrysiggard9285]

I feel Dr Harper is very educated and sensitive. We need to look at the times, too. Listen to the rest of the podcast. I’ve been listening to a book, “And There was Light,” about Abraham Lincoln. Have even more respect for him now. Can’t believe anyone would say disparaging things (Disney cartoon) abt this great leader. I appreciated Dr Harper’s timely message abt charity for Church leaders. Aren’t we all commanded to pray to be filled w charity, which is the greatest of all? Thanks for having Steven Harper as your guest. Your episodes are amazing. Thanks for the Great Work you are doing to build Faith!!! ❤

[@mayaya1613]

@@kerrysiggard9285 No, Kerry. Just no. Educated doesn’t equate to being sensitive and it has nothing to do with him being on here. Just by using the excuse that those were different times I’m willing to bet that you’re also white. Only a white person can excuse racism and look past it, so ignorantly. The issue with the church and their authorities and people like you is that you refuse to own up to the past! Accept it and teach it! He DID say a lot of racist, hurtful, and ignorant things that affected people back then AND now. Just because racism was more widely accepted back then, it doesn’t mean that it was ok! In fact, he could’ve made the choice to not be a racist back then too lmao. Do not come at me with biblical quotes and references when excusing racism in any way. Because this is the worst way to get someone to come to church or to see your side. The only right response would’ve been. Yes, he was racist. “He doesn’t speak for the whole church and is not what the church is about.” However, you didn’t say that. You were ok with his racist remarks.

[@wadewixom7029]

I think millennials have been raised to believe that what others say makes us act and think in certain ways. I think it’s a shame that so many people are willing to give that kind of control to things outside of themselves. We always have the ability to choose our response. Victor Frankel made that clear in his response to Nazi treatment of Jewish prisoners. I believe that is the point Harper is making.

[@mayaya1613]

@@wadewixom7029 exactly, so Harper could’ve made the choice to not gaslight his audience and ignore racist remarks someone made and even try to say that they weren’t racist. You’re right he CHOSE to do this and that is a problem.

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

. According to the Mormon doctrine you believe you must do more than what what was accomplished on the cross, Jesus is our Savior and through Him we have been saved and we have eternal life. But in your temple ceremony and the Mormon doctrine proves that you have very little faith in our Lord. Jesus is sufficient, nothing more is needed. By the way, NO ONE has ever seen God!! Reading the scriptures of the bible you will know you must go through Jesus to be with the Father, no rules, temples, ordinances or laws are necessary to be with God, all that is necessary is trusting and having faith in our Lord Jesus Christ!

[@RafaelGarcia-jb3me]

This guy never debates his ideas.

[@zdea777]

“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:6-9

[@germanslice]

That's not what the testimony of John the Revelator says because John was being taught the gospel directly from the angle of heaven who was speaking to John on the isle of Patmos. AFTER Paul had given that warning to the Galatians Saints, but this warnin of Paul had nothing to do with John orto do with the last days, the warning was to do with what was happening in Paul's time with the Galatian Saints at the time who were falling into apostasy. It had nothing to do with what would happen in the future to the planet that John had seen in vision that God would send down an angle from heaven with the everlasting gospel to preach to them who dwell down on the earth among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. John saw what God was going to do in the last days and the angle of God had showed to John for John saw how the gospel was going to be preached in the last days and it would be preached by an angle from God. That's why the Book of Mormon came from an angle of God. For God has a message to give to the inhabitants of the planet through that book. .

[@45s262]

The host rocking the drip drip. New wave hair do , apricot sweaters... Heck ya. Hahaha

[@mrs.therapist6122]

I had to watch this with two sets of eyes. One as a member that once was an exmormon and another as a therapist. And I just think this doesn't help people with a faith crisis. What they are saying is its your fault you didn't know so be charitable and don't blame the church. The charitable part is meant to shame a person that is angry. Also go study the scriptures which exmormons have done already That is peachy keen that he is a scholar but who cares. He is not a therapist. I just don't think this video helps. Sorry.

[@jeremysmith9694]

You missed the entire point

[@mrs.therapist6122]

Listen there needs to be one sunday every two months that the Bishop teaches Sunday School and opens it up to tackling church history questions. So fearful members can ask questions without feeling looked down upon. Also ever missionary should be trained how to combat the CES letter. My son is going on a mission. I trained him how to answer the CES letter for investigators. I also taught him the beliefs of dozens of churches that think Mormonism is a cult. He is not naive. He is equipped in his generation to be a great missionary but he is now knowledgable hiw to combat satan. We could do better as a church.

[@mrs.therapist6122]

@@jeremysmith9694 and that point was what?

[@mrs.therapist6122]

If the point was study the gospel on your own. Then well dugh! Every exmormon who left studied it. That is why they found out stuff and left. I didn't watch the last 15 minutes of it. Was there something more?

[@jeremysmith9694]

@@mrs.therapist6122 If you didn't get it from Steven Harper you're certainly not going to get it from me. But charity and compassion for prophets of God is a great start. And yes the last ten minutes were really important.

[@jeremysmith9694]

I love Steven Harper. No offense but this host sucks. So slow and uninteresting.

[@thekolobsociety]

lol rip

[@logankearl8115]

I loved steven harper too. I just have a different perspective on the facts of how the host performed being that I think he's great.

[@rutherglenroad8109]

Did you miss the charity bit?

[@jeremysmith9694]

@@rutherglenroad8109 charity for leaders of the church? Nope I heard it.

[@georgetucker1766]

Correlation

[@EaEnkiSonOfAnu]

I see a lot of comments hating on Brigham Young. That’s fine and rightfully your feelings. However we forget prophets in the Bible who were just as bad. David commuted all kinds of adultery, Noah was a drunk, many of them had many wives and concubines. It’s so easy to focus on modern prophets, just don’t forget the prophets of old who while on earth may have been equally as bad or worse. Just my thoughts.

[@EaEnkiSonOfAnu]

@@elizabethkinnear7140 no that was very well added. Couldn’t have said it better myself. But very very very true. These guys aren’t perfect and they all have and will make mistakes based on their own understanding. But that was absolutely well said/added.

[@nwigster436]

You are assuming that the Bible stories are true actual stories.

[@StevenBooks]

​@@elizabethkinnear7140 I'd be careful how literal you take the bible. Moses was likely a literary figure as well as Abraham

[@edmundoalarcon2000]

Everyone lies. Even Nephi dressed up Laban to obtain plates and escape. It's not the lie it's what is the intention of the lie

[@scottvance74]

Indeed. Packer was the expert on this topic. "The writer or the teacher who has an exaggerated loyalty to the theory that everything must be told is laying a foundation for his own judgment." He knew how he wanted historians to lie - i.e. by simply not telling the uncomfortable stories of the early church.

[@edmundoalarcon2000]

@@scottvance74 be honest about being dishonest lol how could I trust that lol