HCMT Trains and stations they soon won't serve, Melbourne

[@michaeldamiani3436]

The exclusion of a metro station at South Yarra is an absolute disaster in transit planning.

[@tressteleg1]

You got it! I suppose eastern line passengers would have to change at Flinders St. Same with those bound for most loop stations

[@xr6lad]

100%. Yet I’ve had gunzels afraid that we are attacking their mate Dan defend it. No where in Europe would you pass under a major station like Sth Yarra with 2 other lines plus trams and not build a interchange. For Sandringham line passengers it will now be 2 trains just to get the Pakenham/ Cranbourne lines.

[@tressteleg1]

@@xr6lad I suppose the engineers and/or bean counters decided that it was either too difficult or too expensive to make a passenger connection there. Surely a google search will unearth some explanation. Something for you to do and let us all know 😊

[@JTransport]

Absolutely

[@tressteleg1]

😊

[@jlu]

Can u do a quick comparison of Melbourne and Sydney rail networks? Aside from the double deckers I find the branding and signage at Sydney to be far more well designed and aesthetic 👌

[@tressteleg1]

It is a subject I have not thought about before, but if I do anything, it will have to wait until I next go south to both places. The only comparison I have really done was the difference between peak hour station dewll times in Sydney and Melbourne. On average, double deck trains took one and a half seconds longer.

[@leeroberts1192]

Is Sydney the only Australian city to use double deckers? I've never seen any double deckers in any vids filmed in cities other then Sydney?

[@tressteleg1]

@@leeroberts1192 Correct. Quite some years ago a 4 car Tangara style train was built for Melbourne and was test run for several years. There were all sorts of problems, including being coupled to a four car Comeng train whose control gear was barely compatible. There were other difficulties as well and eventually Melbourne just gave up on the idea, always claiming that it was too slow to load which in Melbourne circumstances was probably correct.

[@leeroberts1192]

@@tressteleg1 Years ago here in the UK in the south and south east of England, if you ignore the power source (3rd rail and OLE), just about anything could couple up, probably in service) with just about anything else). These days you've got about 3 or 4 different coupler types and you've got multiple TMS software. I expect at one time if one area that runs of the 3rd rail was short on units you'd been able to drop a different class of unit from a different area in to supplement the units in the destination area.

[@tressteleg1]

@@leeroberts1192 I don’t see the UK as the beacon of all that is ideal in the way of rail transport as many of their rail motor lines would be electrified in just about anywhere in mainland Europe. Similarly if Victoria were part of NSW, Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong would have been electrified for MU trains decades ago. They are a poor substitute for electric trains especially around the back of Werribee where stations are comparatively close together. NSW has ordered some MU trains which will use electric under the wires, then change to diesel but their delivery is years behind for several reasons.

[@griffonboi]

The reason why they got rid of seats was so they could fit more people in with standing room A bandaid solution for sure but for me it did not drive me to use a car (pun intended) When they finally get enough trains per hour on that line I'm sure it will be less of an issue

[@tressteleg1]

What I find to be nothing short of misleading is calling them high-capacity trains which is largely achieved by reducing the number of seats which as you say is a Band-Aid solution. If 50% of the train’s capacity is standing, that means that around half the people will have to stand for half the line length before finding a seats. Pretty crappy in my opinion. Anyway with greatly dropped patronage since Covid, and my observations in February, Train capacity won’t be a real problem for many years to come.

[@griffonboi]

@@tressteleg1 I struggle to find a seat on the Werribee/Williamstown lines during the peaks. Obviously if they up the frequency then there will be less people waiting on the platforms and getting onto the trains at a time

[@tressteleg1]

That surprises me a little as it seemed that not many people are riding the trains these days, at least compared with before-Covid numbers. I don’t know whether government are interested in your Williamstown Trains being somewhat crowded. Maybe they don’t even know about it either.

[@georgeronn1263]

Excellent video and especially your thoughts on the new trains. Though whiney electronics on the outside, they do seem quieter on the inside than the Comeng trains.

[@tressteleg1]

Yes the noise did seem somewhat less inside. You can’t compare these with the Comeng trains as their noise is created by the driving gears. Those trains have no electronics at all.

[@pagophilus]

Go to Singapore. Standing room only for most during peak periods. And it can still take you an hour to go from one end of the city to another. That's just what happens when cities grow.

[@tressteleg1]

There is a big difference between Singapore and Melbourne. In Melbourne, people who can’t get a seat will drive their car instead. In Singapore, and most of the world besides the USA and a few other countries, only a small percentage of the populace has a car because they all live in tower blocks with few parking places. This applies in just about all European cities as well.

[@fauzirahman3285]

When the Dandenong lines go through the Metro Tunnel, I hope the Frankston line doesn't follow the anti-clockwise direction. I currently use the Newport-Frankston line connection and it would require me to change twice if it goes anti-clockwise.

[@tressteleg1]

I have never been able to keep track of the direction change going round the city loop but nothing is more stupid than reversing the direction around the middle of the day. I could see a certain logic when Jolimont sidings were in use and trains ran into it from Flinders Street in the morning, and came out in the afternoon. But with that gone, there is no sensible reason to reverse the direction these days.

[@fauzirahman3285]

@@tressteleg1 oh yeah and services dry up during that time too to cater to the change. Should just keep it going in one direction all day. Basically when they put in HCMT they had to reverse the direction of the Dandenong lines to cater to the CBCT upgrade. Frankston continues to go through to Newport or turn back ay Flinders Street. But when the Dandenong lines go through to Footscray, the Frankston line will go round the loop.

[@tressteleg1]

That whole loop operation is plain stupid. At times there is no direct service between Southern Cross and North Melbourne so you have to go in to Flagstaff and come back out again. Totally hopeless for casual users. Another time I wanted to go from SC to Camberwell but due to some track closures, and useless train indicators I gave up and went by tram instead. Run by morons. Sometimes I wonder if they have a clue what they will do after the metro tunnel opens. Think of something stupid, and that will probably be it.

[@acentshort]

Interesting. Do you view the fare increases implemented on July 1st as a form of additional charge to support the Metro Tunnel project? If this is the case, do you believe that individuals who exclusively use lines unrelated to the Metro Tunnel are experiencing unjustified overcharging to compensate for underpatronage of the Metro Tunnel lines?

[@tressteleg1]

I don’t lives in Melbourne so can’t comment with any knowledge, but public transport fares rise everywhere from time to time. Only local would know if those increases are unusual. Other lines will benefit from the segregation of that corridor as it will make the city area less crowded.

[@linuxbot3000]

Fare increase smaller than inflation since last time it changed = still a real fare decrease since last bump.

[@darylcheshire1618]

usually arbitrary, no relation to whatever project is happening, the government and Metro decided the fares need adjusting. In the same way car registration has nothing to do with the upkeep of the roads.

[@ianmontgomery7534]

@@darylcheshire1618 The rises may just cover the increase in electricity cost.

[@darylcheshire1618]

@@ianmontgomery7534 I wondered how the VR paid for their electricity to run sparks from the state owned SEC. Was it a journal entry? Or was it ignored as it was a state owned money loser and it was “free” electricity at the government level. I worked in the Education Department in the ‘70s in the area that paid emergency teachers and once a month I was given a cheque for up to $1M and took it next door to some guy in the Treasury department to pay the payrol tax for emergency teachers for that month. The state Treasury dept then paid the commonweath government. In that vein, would some (pimply-faced) junior VR official walk from Head Office in Spencer Street to the SEC head office in Flinders St to pay the bill? I suspect the electricity to power the VR overheads were not metered and would have been considered a wholesale commodty. I have no life if I ponder such topics.

[@caleb1016]

idk if it’s a bad idea but the express track between South Yarra and Caulfield could be used by Frankston express trains also if they built switch tracks before Caulfield and after the tunnel portal at South Yarra. But it was also mean Frankston line trains would need signal upgrading. Both lines are very busy but it could mean express trains between Caulfield and South Yarra every 5-6 minutes, and any express train leaving Caulfield every 90 seconds to 2 minutes.

[@tressteleg1]

I think that Melbourne simply wants to have this standalone metro line but have to suffer the inconvenience of the V line and freight trains sharing most of it. Too bad about Bairnsdale passengers who will continue to have their trains just trundle along behind an all stations train from South Yarra all the way to Packenham. Yawn 🥱😴.

[@geoffreymoore1510]

Hi mate! I thought I was subscribed to you? Am now. Look forward to more from you. Signage is nice and clear. Trains graffiti-free. Hope to see you over my way again some time.

[@tressteleg1]

Well I have no way of knowing who is subscribed, but with over 11,000 it would take some hunting. Anyway I aim to get to Sydney and Melbourne each summer, so maybe we will bump into each other one day…

[@geoffreymoore1510]

@@tressteleg1 Yeah, hopefully. I go everywhere with a carer these days, since my fall on the Sydney Metro in October, last year.

[@tressteleg1]

@@geoffreymoore1510 Yes, I seem to recall you mentioning your situation in the past. Take it easy!

[@ronronchau]

Just wonder, if South Yarra is excluded from pakenham/cranbourne services, will frankston service able to cover-up the express service from South Yarra - caufield express?

[@tressteleg1]

Not sure what you mean, but the Dandenong region trains already miss some of the stations after Caulfield inbound with the equivalents outbound. So the Frankston line is already the only one providing all station services missed by the metro trains.

[@wiellnyan]

To be fair State library is an extension of Melb Central likewise Townhall is an extension of Flinders.

[@tressteleg1]

Let’s see how they end up doing the connection, but it is nevertheless likely to be a walk of a few minutes and with only stairs to get from the Degraves Street tunnel up to platform level.

[@frankpeiffer5380]

I note nearly empty trains in the evening peak in this video. Try the Craigieburn line. That is a very different story. Will the government increase capacity on other needy lines when the new trains release use of existing rolling stock? Great video once again too BTW.

[@tressteleg1]

They could do that now by not scrapping the older Comeng trains for a while. Of course they would need the extra drivers as well.

[@harryk8696]

iirc the craigieburn line will benefit quite well from the metro tunnel. also xtraps 2.0 will replace the comeng in a couple of years too

[@tressteleg1]

@harryk8696 Yes the new trains are in planning. Storage sidings are being lengthened a little as they will have fronts similar to HCMT. When Comeng trains finish, Melbourne will have nothing but trains making weird electronic noises instead of gear sounds. Not sure how that will help Craigieburn as the metro trains will got to Sunbury. And post Covid, public transport usage is still down somewhat and may take many years to recover without a reversal of working from home.

[@slysnake5617]

As a local, I don't see any reason that they would change operators, or why they would change to downer?

[@tressteleg1]

It is just my guess, but it’s quite likely that in due course this train will be operated without a driver or any other staff on board, just like the Metro in Sydney and many other places. In the meantime, they may replace drivers with less skilled train attendance and pay them less. Separating Downer from Metro could well reduce the likelihood of union problems.

[@Helioselpoder]

wait. will metro trains melbourne loose the operation of the network?

[@tressteleg1]

The most likely scenario in the future when Sunbury to Dandenong and beyond is fully automated is that the line will be handed over to Downer who maintains those trains at Pakenham East. It’s ironic that the Metro company who operates all trains at present will be operating all the trains that are not Metro lines while the Downer company will operate the only line that is true Metro.

[@DanielDiaz-um1xd]

On the opposite side, does anybody know what will happen with the direct lines at sth Kensington just after the portal?

[@tressteleg1]

The ‘metro’ will continue to Sunbury which I said at the end of the video. Didn’t you see that?

[@DanielDiaz-um1xd]

@@tressteleg1 whoops, should have been more specific, I meant the current line the Sunbury line uses to get to north Melbourne, so after the metro splits off, just curious about its use

[@tressteleg1]

@@DanielDiaz-um1xd As V line has its own tracks to Sunshine, I suppose it would just be the occasional freight which will join in somewhere near Footscray. Like most things with this project, we will just have to wait to see what they come up with.

[@Ash-fd6lw]

The new tunnel is an improvement that cost 12 billion. - no, the new tunnel is a wank. Dandenong trains will be taken out of the Caulfield loop to increase capacity. - but wait, Dandenong are the ONLY trains using the Caulfield loop. No worries, put the Frankston trains in the Caulfield loop. - but Frankston trains already have an exclusive track over the viaduct to Werribee. Oh, we will run the Werribee trains to Sandy. - but Sandy already have exclusive use of plats 12 & 13. Shut up.

[@tressteleg1]

I guess we will have to just wait and see what they do with the City Loop platforms no longer used by Dandenong and beyond suburban services. Maybe in due course other lines will be segregated from the rest of the system and also automatic operated metro style.

[@Ash-fd6lw]

@@tressteleg1 Segregated automatic operation is probably their ultimate goal. It is never about service to the public - if it was, public transport everywhere would be of a much higher standard than it is. Politicians care about votes and budgets and vested interests, private operators care about profits, and that is what drives policy. When the system was split between Connex and MTrain there were absurd situations where trains on one side were cancelled while drivers on the other side sat around on standby, which was clearly a waste of resources. Automatic trains solves the problem of effective use of drivers by getting rid of drivers. Isolated train operation means they lose flexibility when things go wrong, but as long as the overall bottom line is improved then they don't care if occasional disruptions cause more inconvenience than they otherwise should.

[@tressteleg1]

@@Ash-fd6lw I certainly agree with your opening comments. Driverless Trains is probably the ultimate goal although spending billions on a tunnel is an expensive way to save on driver wages! Public transport anyway, especially in Australia, pollies see as a waste of public money just propping it up whereas unfortunately road improvements are seen as an investment for the future while it’s really the public transport that should be getting the lion’s share of the money. So saving on operating costs I would rate as at least as important to the politicians as is getting more votes on polling day. It was Kennetts stupid idea that splitting train and tram routes into two different companies would increase competition when of course when both were serving quite different parts of the city, there is almost nowhere where there is competition between the companies and as you say, ridiculous situations where one company could be short of staff, and the other have spare people sitting around doing nothing and there is no interaction. I suspect that many disruptions occur when one train is running late getting to a Junction station delaying trains on the other converging line as well. At least with a number of stand - alone lines, that major cause of delays simply disappears. Obviously getting rid of locations which can feed one line’s traffic into the other’s in the event of a disruption seems not to be the least bit important to the present government and operator.

[@thex-wing]

Very interesting I live in this corridor I'm currently doing a train station series on my channel at the moment

[@tressteleg1]

The stations I covered in this video will be the only ones really affected. The rest of the stations are unlikely to change much from what you see today. While this video may seem repetitious today, in years to come people would like to see what those stations looked like with HCMT trains

[@thex-wing]

@@tressteleg1 oh ok cool

[@tressteleg1]

😊👍

[@thex-wing]

@tressteleg1 I have add u

[@tressteleg1]

😊👍

[@xr6lad]

Agree . 1 hour+ standing. Sorry but our trains in Victoria seem to be run on Dans Soviet model. The Vlocity as well are totally inappropriate regional trains: commuter style trains being run long distance with seats crammed in.

[@tressteleg1]

Before you blame your ‘dictator’ you must consider what the approach of the alternative would do. Do they have a good record of shovelling money into public transport? In Qld, no. In NSW it is the liberals who have built tram and metro lines. As for running rail motors on medium distance commuter lines (Ballarat Bendigo and especially Geelong) is archaic. Even Qld runs electric hundreds of Km north, and Good Coast as well. And for those new suburbs west of Werribee running commuter trains with those rail motors -unbelievable!

[@xr6lad]

@@tressteleg1umm we have the entire world as an example of long distance diesel multiple units. who in the 21st century signs off something that has no tray tables, no usb or power chargers, and removes toilets to fit in extra seats. And has carriages broken into 2 x 3 carriage sets not connected so if one had a buffet you have to get out to go to it.

[@tressteleg1]

Yes, Britain uses diesel rail motors a lot, but comparatively rarely in mainland Europe. Victoria is more like Britain in that regard. A bit backwards.

[@Bobrogers99]

I notice quite a loud, low-pitched scream as trains stop and start up at stations.

[@tressteleg1]

Most of the noise when braking, and certainly all when starting is created by the control electronics which in my opinion are excessively loud but I don’t expect anything will be done about it.

[@peterelvery]

All AC motor IGBT/GTO trains make this sound. It's resonant frequency vibration of the switching power controller.

[@tressteleg1]

@@peterelvery Yes I knew in essence what it was, my point was that it is excessively noisy. Luckily it did not seem so loud inside the trains.

[@peterelvery]

@@tressteleg1 Interesting. I thought the sound would be the same as NSW Waratahs, also built by CRRC., but when I checked, the Waratahs have Hitachi IGBT traction whereas the HCMTs are CRRC TEC equipped.

[@Bobrogers99]

If I lived close to a station, I think I'd be unhappy about it. I'll bet that a clever electrical engineer could find a way to soften it, but that would probably cost a few dollars. There are trains that aren't anywhere near as loud.

[@scottyerkes1867]

Interesting video. Big changes in train service. Thanks tressteleg1

[@tressteleg1]

😆

[@peregrinemccauley5010]

Good cinematography , again .

[@tressteleg1]

👍😊

[@hassansayyab1194]

Awesome video Mate sorry I’m asking the same question but on Mernda line progress at Keon park station and level crossing replacing by rail bridge and build new Keon park station they already putting piers to support the rail bridge can you film it if you can 😊

[@tressteleg1]

I won’t be in Melbourne before sometime next summer.

[@hassansayyab1194]

@@tressteleg1 Ok Thanks for that 😊👍

[@pierreinthavong181]

Awesome video👍😊

[@tressteleg1]

😊👍

[@peterhoz]

19:21 20/20 hindsight considering they were commissioned pre covid when patronage in peak was well over 100%

[@tressteleg1]

I was not intending to claim they should have not been built because it was the right decision at the time. I was just saying that as things have turned out, the need for them today is likely to be minimal but nevertheless of course they still should be finished.

[@PhucMi1]

2:22 Button doors might save some aircon, but its less convenient for people carrying stuff and disabled people. I prefer sydney's automatic doors

[@tressteleg1]

@@PhucMi1 well any time you are venturing away from Sydney, get ready to press the door opening button or you will soon find yourself at the next stop. Usually there are plenty of other people to open the doors if some can’t.

[@DKS225]

They already have CBTC operating on London Underground's Sub-Surface lines of The Circle, Hammersmith & City, Metropolitan and District.

[@tressteleg1]

First step towards driverless trains I would say.

[@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042]

Driverless trains have been implemented on railways without platform screen doors, but I doubt they would be doing this sort of thing in the future. They might put platform screen doors in eventually, but it's a whole lot of difficulty and will probably take 50 years. I reckon it's easier for them to have an "attendant" sit in the cab and watch like they do right now than to get rid of staff entirely.

[@tressteleg1]

@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042 . The downgrading of the Bankstown line to Metro will include platform doors. I think this luxury addition in some places is requiring the platforms to be straightened, no doubt at great expense. How much health and safety zealots, probably assisted by door salesmen, have convinced various operations that the doors are essential I don’t know. Tomorrow I will email you some details of interest.

[@mimidixon6912]

yeah but Government must spend the money:) Btw, Any idea why tunnel project seems going to open earlier?

[@tressteleg1]

I’ll stay out of the debate about whether there should or should not be a fare increase and leave that up to locals to discuss. If things have gone well without bad weather and strikes, why not open early if it is ready?

[@mimidixon6912]

@@tressteleg1 I respectfully disagree

[@tressteleg1]

@@mimidixon6912 disagree with what?

[@RichyTransport]

tbh the HCMTs kinda sound like NYT subway sounds...

[@tressteleg1]

That is possible. Although the vehicle bodies may be built anywhere, the electronics and bogies probably come from a limited number of makers, so it is possible that your trains and ours are electrically and mechanical much the same so would sound similar.

[@Ash-fd6lw]

I have seen a comment by a train driver somewhere explaining why the tunnel is a wank and better outcomes could have been acheived in less time and at less cost. Because the Dandenong line is the only line using the Caulfield loop, the only increase in capacity will be from taking the Sunbury line out of the Northern loop. The Clifton Hill and Burnley groups are not affected by the tunnel so no extra capacity there. The Dandy, Frankston, Werribee and Sandy lines already have dedicated tracks in the city area, so it is impossible to increase capacity on those lines without track amplification all the way from the city to the outer suburbs on each individual corridor. As for the argument that the new tunnel will serve the St Kilda Rd offices and the University/Hospital areas, this doesn't stand up to analysis. The majority of people going to those areas do NOT live on the Dandy and Sunbury lines, which means they will have to change to another train or tram. The St Kilda Rd to University tram line is one of the busiest in the world, eight or nine services use that track which results in VERY frequent services even at the quietest times of day. Why would anyone in those areas walk several blocks to climb down into an underground station to wait for a train to go one stop and then climb out again when trams are literaly running every few seconds past their door and providing more convenient interchange in the city. Most people will continue using the trams, the tunnel will have little benefit. The alternative solution to increasing capacity on the rail network is effective in its simplicity. Change the entrances to the existing city loop! Connect the Northern and Caulfield loop tunnels to North Melbourne and Richmond, one in each direction, and run trains from Craigieburn and Upfield to Glen Waverley and Alamein via Melb Central. Sunbury and Dandenong trains can then use the viaduct tracks previously used by Caulfield and Northern groups, one in each direction. Werribee and Frankston continue to use their dedicated viaduct tracks. Sandy continue to use Platforms 12 & 13. Clifton Hill and Burnley groups continue to use their own tracks as they do now (and as they will do anyway with the new tunnel) with the added advantage of extra capacity for the Ringwood line because Glen Waverley and Alamein are no longer using the Burnley group tracks. Too late now of course. Think of all the money that could have been saved and used for other improvements to the rail and tram networks. Although the politicians would have probably spent it on roads or their own pensions...

[@tressteleg1]

You have raised some interesting points although not being a Melbourne inhabitant, I’m not quite up with everything you suggest but I dare say you are right. I think that the main intention of it all is to isolate as many lines from the others as they can and ultimately operate them with driverless trains which is quite common overseas. It also raises the question of how the current Dandenong region tunnels in the city Loop will be utilised. After the new tunnel opens, they may even experiment with putting different services in what will be the vacant tunnels. So there could be several years of experimentation and changing. Maybe they have it all sorted out already, but who is to know? And your suggestion that the Metro corridor residents are not likely to work in Saint Kilda Road offices could be quite correct but it won’t be until the tunnel opens at we will know for certain how useful the ANZAC station will be at Domain Road. Also people are slow to change their habits. Another aspect to consider is that many route 58 travellers from Toorak to the city now change to trains at South Yarra but after the Metro tunnel is open, they only will have Frankston line trains and Sandringham Trains to take them the couple of stations to Flinders Street. Overall, I expect that a lot of people are going to be displeased with changes which must take place. 2025 and 26 are sure to be interesting times on the Melbourne suburban Railway.

[@frankcosoleto9672]

What's going to happen during the footy season trains are usually full with fans, how are going to get to the MCG? Are they going to have special services

[@tressteleg1]

@@frankcosoleto9672 I suppose the footy fans will have to change to Frankston line trains which are probably already full, to get to Richmond, or continue on to Town hall to catch a tram or train back to the MCG. I think you can forget all ideas about HCMT Trains running to Richmond and Flinders Street, but you never know.

[@paulstubbs7678]

Can't say I like what I am reading about the new signalling, fully automatic?, so kind of deskilling the drivers so when they have to take over they will be less prepared. Removing the connecting between the newer HCMT/Dandenong & Pakenham lines also sounds silly, for when something goes wrong, having the maximum options to re-route is always best. What are you going to do if the incident will take hours to clear, call in heaps of buses to pick up all the marooned passengers, or just switch the trains onto the Frankston line as was done in the past (same goes for trouble on the Frankston line) Yes cramming everything onto one line really slows things down, but it's still way faster than buses, I was once waiting forever at a station for replacement buses after an incident, after way over an hour the poor station attendant came on the PA to say, Sorry, we've rung all the bus companies, they cannot help, your on your own!

[@tressteleg1]

Time will show what the ultimate goal is, but my guess is eventually driverless trains fully controlled by Downer. I expect that in the event of a tunnel closure Caulfield or Malvern stations will be very busy! The current junctions at the tunnel mouths will remain for VLine and freight trains. Maybe HCMT train diversions as well, but don’t bet on it.

[@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042]

I do know that many of the passenger display screens are set up by some kind of software system that has to be reset by drivers to change what the destination display is. I think this is normally done while the train is stopped at Flinders Street. This is really no excuse since I also agree that they should switch between stations to avoid confusing passengers, but the same thing seems to happen in Sydney where trains arrive at Central with "central" written on the displays - but at least in Sydney they change to their outgoing destination before they get to Town Hall or museum. Buses have the same problem. Because of the Brisbane metro works at UQ lakes the buses can't layover there right now so they have changed the displays to turn each route into a "loop" with the only layover being at the other end of the routes. At least here is Brisbane someone had the mind to think about it and come up with an acceptable solution. I think the only reason why it's so bad in Melbourne is because their system is still old and clunky and they enjoy moving trains between the lines at Flinders Street to make up for late trains. You can never really be sure that your train will continue along the line it's supposed to - unless of course it's a HCMT that will only ever go back down to Dandenong or further

[@tressteleg1]

When preparing this video, I raised the subject with my Sydney and Melbourne drivers. It seems that the train destination is linked to the train’s run number and where it ends. Trains running around Sydney’s City Circle have the nominal terminus at Circular Quay at which point Up trains become Down trains. So that is where the destination automatically changes. Similarly Flinders Street is the destination of Trains which first run around the City Loop. The problem in both cities could easily be overcome by the driver manually setting the next destination when first arriving at Central, or upon leaving Richmond in Melbourne. Possibly management does not trust drivers to remember this simple task which anyway the system could automatically rectify as a present. As you say in, Melbourne there is the likelihood of sending a train somewhere totally different from where it is intended to go upon arrival at FSS. I have never seen that done anywhere else, fortunately. The HCMT trains will only operate on Metro style lines and already they are preparing the next version of X-Trapolis trains which are likely to look the same at the front, but not have the automatic operation function fitted.

[@paulstubbs7678]

I've been on a train many a time going through Finders street, the trouble is it's not always guaranteed that the train will continues on to that regular destination, they sometimes get re-routed due to something running late etc, so just saying 'Flinders St' is safer, as it makes you check when you get there, rather that being comatose gorking at your phone then later waking up to the fact your on the wrong line. Being there, done that.

[@tressteleg1]

@@paulstubbs7678 Melbourne seems to be unique in changing the train route at the last minute. While it may well fill a gap in the service, robbing Peter to pay Paul has to be a poor option. I have seen fiascos result from that including stampeding passengers left behind. Hopefully the changed route will be clearly announced by the driver so it would be essential to have the ears open between Richmond or Southern Cross and Flinders St.

[@alexdelaney1975]

I really can't understand this decision not to serve south yarra. It just seems like a corner cut that didn't need to be at all. Also cutting the connection to Frankston Line. I've heard the justifications, but surely more flexibility is a good thing.

[@tressteleg1]

On the surface at least, it appears that the cheap option (no connection) was taken. Re isolation from the Frankston lines, the auto metro operation would work much better without any other trains interfering. Unfortunately for them they still have cater for Vline and freight trains. Thus normal signals must be retained for those trains.

[@sandrafowler6717]

The Metro Rail Tunnel is a joke, and it's a complete travisty that trains on the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines won't be going through South Yarra and Richmond, passengers that want to get off at South Yarra and Richmond will have to exchange trains at Caulfeild into an already crowded train from Frankston, that is not good for passengers that are elderly and or disabled. The Minister Of Transport and the PTV have to rethink and change their minds, and also what is going to happen with the Regional train service from Traralgon, I think that has been overlooked. Travelers on the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines have put up so much with buses replacing trains due to the level crossing removal project, and put up with not being able to get off at South Yarra and Richmond because the pathetic tunnel route is just a total slap in the face.

[@tressteleg1]

@@sandrafowler6717 Agreed, especially with regard to the need to change trains at Caulfield, one of the most awkward stations to change platforms which requires touching off, leaving the station and then touching on again for the new platform. Unfortunately it’s much too late for a rethink on South Yarra. I’m not sure the tunnel even goes under that station so it’s not gonna be moved now. As for the regional train service, it will continue to be as it is - crawling along behind an all stations train as far as Pakenham. That’s the reason for the signals on that line turning themselves on and off according to which train is coming next. Those country trains need the signals showing, and they do, while the Metro Trains require no signal showing.

[@Geeves8612]

Even the Yamanote circular line round tokyo retains at least some emergency connections to other lines and platforms. I can't help thinking the removed connections will be a mistake when the CBTC inevitably crashes, the Elizabeth line can divert into Paddington or Liverpool St in London too. Someone obviously Knows better.

[@tressteleg1]

The present connections just south of South Yarra have to remain to allow the VLine and freight trains onto the tracks which lead to Dandenong and beyond so presumably in the case of the new Metro tunnel being closed, trains from this segregated line could still travel over the existing network as they do now. However this would only be in abnormal situations and would presume that HCMT trains continued to be manned by fully qualified drivers. It is all a matter of wait and see.

[@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042]

During peak hour I doubt the connections would help if one line gets delayed, it would be a case of trying to jam too many trains into too few tracks. If anything it would be more help to allow Frankston trains to share the old Dandenong tracks between Richmond and South Yarra if there are problems. During trackwork the connections would help, But I imagine their operational plan is to just terminate northbound Frankston trains at Caulfield and make everyone go in the Metro tunnel - if the Frankston line is blocked in this section. They probably figured that if they can't run HCMTs on the Frankston tracks, there is no point in running Frankston trains on the HCMT tracks.

[@rh4224]

@@tressteleg1 HCMTs will likely have drivers in them for as long as they're sharing track with non-CBTC regional and freight.

[@allangibson8494]

Both the Craigieburn and Pakenham lines are used for freight and country passenger services. Craigieburn to Albury Wodonga (the Sydney service runs in a segregated standard gauge track) and Pakenham out to Bairnsdale via Traralgon with hourly services in both directions. No segregated tracks are being provided outside the loop.

[@tressteleg1]

Not a good comparison as Craigieburn will not have automatic-control metro trains on it, not in the foreseeable future at this stage.

[@brndlm5]

To be honest, Melbourne trains is not safety. There’s no train guard station behind the train, open and close the trains’ doors. There’s no express, limited stops and all stops services; all Melbourne trains are all stops services. And the frequency is too low

[@tressteleg1]

As dangerous as it sounds, only Sydney ang Brisbane suburban trains have guards. How many mishaps Melbourne has which could have been avoided with a guard is unknown it me. As for lack of express services (I barely count missing 3 or 4 stations as ‘Express’), Melbourne greatly lags Sydney on many lines. Too bad about Gippsland passengers following an all stations suburban train for mile after mile. Headways are often OK in fact every 10 minutes to Dandenong is see as excessive.

[@mce_AU]

This statement is of course pure nonsense and on purposely misleading. people should really do some basic level research before making such silly accusations.

[@googler-bn1ro]

Will the frequency of all lines get better with the metro tunnel?@@tressteleg1

[@CrabbedSun10]

I agree, they should bring double deck trains to Melbourne as a matter of urgency and put up the a better signalling system, i have always been of the opinion semaphore is a huge improvement!

[@roadwolf2]

They tried double deckers and they failed due to the fact that too much rebuilding of stations and infrastructure would have to be done

[@CrabbedSun10]

@@roadwolf2 No excuse !!! My grandfather (Mr Geoffrey Spicer-Simsons) always said to try and try again, no matter what barrier!!!!

[@tressteleg1]

They failed because there were only 4 cars and ran coupled to a Comeng which which had essentially old fashioned largely incompatible control equipment often causing malfunctions. Also it was slow to load because being a novelty everyone upon seeing it on their train rushed to ride it, delaying departure. Anyway with so many people working from home or preferring their cars, Melbourne’s (and every city’s) trains will have little trouble coping with the lesser riders left for quite some time into the future.

[@peterausfranken]

Im Germany automatic trains running in cities is comming more and more. On linies with high traffic double decker trains are the Standard now. Siemens is also buliding new double decker trains that can go as express trains between the cities at a top speed just up to 180 kph. The new HCMT trains im Melbourne seam to be a Alstrom based construction.

[@tressteleg1]

Here, there is a fashion where cities want to have a metro type operation and single deck automatic operation is what they have in mind. Until the new metro line was opened in Sydney a few years ago, all suburban trains were double check electric multiple units as well as Interurbans which went as far as 160 km from Sydney. Sydney seems to have pioneered the world in that regard. No passenger areas were occupied by equipment. It amuses me that from the beginning, Australian railways were operating suburban services on the inner section of lines which continued far beyond the cities. In only comparatively recent years, apart from Berlin, Germany discovered the advantages of doing this, their S-Bahns. Yes, the HCMT trains are made by Alstom.

[@deanl4575]

@@tressteleg1 What? The HCMTs were made by the same people as the Sydney's Waratahs, CRRC in China.

[@tressteleg1]

@deanl4575 Yep, but in both cases largely just the body shells. Heavens knows how much other imported content is installed in Melbourne, same as Sydney.

[@schembrichild8265]

Idk about the rest of you, but the HCMT trains are the worst smelling trains I’ve ever been in, the inside always smells horrible and it’s very uncomfortable considering I go from Cranbourne to Flagstaff, an hour train ride in a horrible smelling train is not ideal

[@tressteleg1]

I can’t say that I noticed any bad odours, but your general description could be anything - smell of plastic, smell from disgusting passengers, anything?

[@schembrichild8265]

@@tressteleg1 I’m not sure tbh but it’s every one of them to Cranbourne that I have noticed the smell

[@bionicseaserpent]

i've smelt the most of the awful smells on Xtraps. mainly because i've barely used other models before but i haven't not been on them.

[@tressteleg1]

@@bionicseaserpent I never noticed any particular smells on any trains. The previous person who complained could give no indication of what this smell was like. Have people been using it as a toilet? Does the cheap plastic or some other material have a strong smell?

[@bionicseaserpent]

@@tressteleg1 so i looked it up earlier and no one has any mention of it. its also not consistent, so it may as well be something like vomit that's been cleaned up but still stinks. i should probably document which sets or motor cabs i smell it in, incase its actually something else. also, rather unhelpfully, i struggle to figure out how to describe smells.

[@PaulinesPastimes]

I think you are correct. The station car park where I live used to be filled to overflowing pre-covid, now there are spaces all the time. When all these incredibly expensive rail projects were planned and started, nobody could have foreseen COVID and the effect it would have on rail patronage. Back then it was crowded and getting worse. COVID had caused may unforeseen changes and I think a lot of them have a long way to play out yet. I like the points you make about the 'high capacity' trains and I also agree about double deckers. The Sydney trains are very comfortable and quiet and well designed. Oh well, not much we can do about it. 🤔

[@tressteleg1]

I quite agree that when those three major works were planned and construction was well underway, nobody could possibly have foreseen the effects Covid would have on daily life. My comment that essentially they’re likely to be white elephants was an observation, not a criticism. Prior to Covid, I feel that Melbourne ended up with the short straw compared with Sydney in that all the extra capacity is provided with seats, not standing spaces. The downgrading the Bankstown line to a Metro essentially is a reversal of that with everyone sitting sideways potentially with other people’s bottoms in their faces.

[@PaulinesPastimes]

@@tressteleg1 Oh yes, I agree with you, I didn't mean to imply criticism. I've traveled on the metro from Rouse Hill twice and the longitudinal seating is not pleasant. Would be gruelling in peak load. Staring at back sides as you say.

[@tressteleg1]

@@PaulinesPastimes 👍😊

[@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042]

It's hard to tell what the future holds and I think in the general trends of city design we're likely to see public transport use continue to increase yet. It might take 10 years longer than it would of, but considering that current public transit systems are already 30 years behind the 8 ball it seems that just just makes their job easier rather than harder. I do think though, that future investments need to be about coverage rather than capacity.

[@PaulinesPastimes]

@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042 I was talking to a friend about this today and we both came to the same conclusion as you.

[@berenscott8999]

Liberals were going to run this train down the Frankston line. Labor down the Dandenong corridor. Tell me none of this was pork barrelling. You so, what may have made a lot of sense right, was having both Frankston and Dandenong using the new tunnel. But, here's the exception, maybe half the services would use one, or the other. I guess I am saying that maybe every second train uses the new tunnel. I imagine if your in Clayton and you want to go to Docklands stadium you are kind of in a shitty situation. Maybe you've got to change at Caulfield, but because of the station modifications now you have to go to the other platform?

[@tressteleg1]

The word Metro seems to be the Sexy new term. That is why Melbourne‘s operating company is called that although not one single line falls within the category of Metro. A characteristic of the Paris Metro and equivalents in London, New York, and other places is that each line is essentially standalone, at the most splitting two ways somewhere towards one or both ends. What they are doing on the Dandenong - Sunbury corridor falls within what I would call a metro and as such would want nothing to do with Frankston services. Maybe in the future, Frankston to somewhere else will also be Isolated from all the other lines. There is no way they would want to have interworking between two essentially different lines as that’s where delays happen when too many trains have to merge into one corridor.

[@berenscott8999]

@@tressteleg1 but I guess it wouldn't have been a bad idea to have that extra flexibility. Also, they probably could have situated a station near South Yarra. As in, maybe the route would have been different? Like the dive underground occurring earlier or going underneath South Yarra. I'm sure they could have asked London for advice. Liberals had it going to Frankston and they had platforms at South Yarra. Guess what do you do with the abandoned platforms at South Yarra? Build a building on top?

[@xr6lad]

@@tressteleg1no. Melbournes train system was called The Met. Short for the word ‘Metropolitan Transit Authority. I wish people younger than 30 would understand terms. Metro as in metropolitan area as in the Melbourne Metropolitan area (aka urban Melbourne). Nothing to do with a ‘Metro’. And Metro Trains Melbourne is short for Metropolitan Trains Melbourne not a Metro system. 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️. And Melbourne Metro Train Project is Melbourne Metropolitan Train Project aka the Metro Tunnel.

[@tressteleg1]

@@xr6lad I think it could well be you who needs to brush up on history. I was a tram driver under the Met, short for Metropolitan Transit Authority. Then the wonderful 😡 Kennett privatised Melbourne public transport. Trains were labelled Hillside and Bayside. One of those was owned by National Express who eventually realised they had picked a loser in Melbourne so walked away from their trains and M>Tram. Ultimately the contracts were up for grabs and (new) Yarra got the trams and the Metro company won the trains. That company was a combination of Hong Kong’s MTR, John Holland (now owned by China) and UGL. They chose the name Metro, nothing to do with the old name Met. As I said before, having a ‘Metro’ is the sexy new thing ‘every city’ wants. About as fake as Brisbane’s building ‘Metro’ which is nothing more than a double articulated bus.

[@petertrevena804]

WHy they did not do double as would of been great.

[@tressteleg1]

If you mean double deck, I expect the greatest impediment would be the fact that Sydney uses them successfully.

[@petertrevena804]

@@tressteleg1 LOL, yes got that right.

[@tressteleg1]

@@io4439 👍😄

[@darylcheshire1618]

I reckon more work could have been done on the 4D or the expansion of the project. I guess it came, did it’s time and then was cut up for scrap as planned. Then we’re told it’s not as simple as a BG Sydney train, bollocks, nothing’s impossible. The technical issues such as car width and track radius can be overcome. Pollies just don’t want to spend the money. Moving on, future generations should plan for a SG suburban and regional system, in theory all rolling stock is bogie exchangable as per decision in the ‘50s. The VR locos were certainly bogie exchangable.