Heat Pump from Octopus - Should I get one?

[@philipbroggio9315]

We have 128m² 4 bed detached house. 270mm loft insulation, cavity wall insulation and modern double glazed windows. Our EPC is rated B85. Installed Octopus Daikin 7kW ashp in June 22. Heat calcs gave 6.6 kW heat needed @-2 ext. I checked and used heat geek cheat sheet which gave about 6.7kW. we needed 11/14 rads replaced (No new ones) and had sealed 250l tank replacing vented tank. Our net cost after grant was £6008. After a year of use we have found the system more than adequate to heat the house. The design was for a flow temp of 50⁰@-2ext but this was too warm when we got to design day in December. I gradually tweaked weather comp down to 50⁰@-15ext/30⁰@18ext. This gave us 20⁰ downstairs and 18⁰ upstairs and very little cycling. We got a sCOP of 3.63 for heating and 2.36 for hot water. As to usage we used 2663kWh for heating of which 550 came from solar. For HW we used a mix of night rate heat pump (501kWh ) and eddi (275kWh) plus solar 629kWh. If we had used gas I estimate last 12 months would have cost us £1380. Using our Octopus Go Faster tariff we have spent about £858 all in and saved a further £105 by ditching gas . Very pleased with the system but you need to fine tune to your house to get best efficiency out of it 🤓

[@evdabbler]

Great experience share with detailed numbers thanks

[@juliandclarke]

Excellent vid. I’ve a 2002 204m2 bungalow. Previously heated by oil, we switched to an ASHP in April 21. We purchased a Daikin Altherma 3H HT ASHP & a 180L slim Mixergy h/w cylinder. We achieved a SCOP of 3.78 for the first year. No radiator changes. But we had improved the building fabric - 300mm loft insulation; 4kW solar PV; triple glazing; new front door; reduced drafts. We switched to weather compensation curve after a year of Nest controller. Waiting to see benefits. I spoke to more than 10 installers asking dumb questions until I was more confident. I had six quotes doing video walk arounds with potential installers due to Covid restrictions. Ask me any questions. My story is on Ecobubl KZbin channel (my installers)

[@rymoe6299]

Excellent assessment! As a former MCS installer of ASHP now looking at one for my own home. I’ve explained to the 3 companies who have quoted I now work in another industry but I have experience. Not one installer understood or complied with MCS or BUsS requirements. My heat loss using current MCS calculation is 7.1kw my quotes are for 8.5 / 12 kw! Finally got octopus to to my ASHP quote in December 2022. From all the information from other guys who as had Octopus do the survey I’m actually thinking these guys are doing a proper job!!! Not just selling and installing in efficient overpriced ASHP!

[@evdabbler]

Thanks for sharing!

[@matchmade44]

But we have the same problem with gas boiler installers. They used to be trained to calculate boiler and radiator sizes quite carefully, but nowadays most just seem to stick a figure in the air, over-specify, and bill the extra cost to the ignorant customer.

[@Soulrollsdeep]

This is really reassuring to read, I've got Octopus installing ours at end of Jan (should have been summertime this year but Woking council fucked around with the approval so we just moved the install location to get around it in the end, took months)

[@davidreece1642]

Agree, I've had 17kW,14kW and a recent 12kW recommendations. I reckon a 7kW is sufficient. Is it the MCS regs or the installers themselves who are responsible for oversizing and thus inefficient operation of ASHPs...or both?

[@soundslight7754]

I appreciate this video and your thought process. You've had a very good approach. Two comments or questions: 1. Why not underfloor heating for better heat distribution and avoiding those ghastly radiators? 2. Why not installing storage batteries to charge up overnight at 10p/kw price? You could also add solar panels and produce some of your electricity needs

[@evdabbler]

Thanks. Two very fair points.

[@hughrattray9354]

Useful video, thank you. I like the fact that the Octopus quote breaks down the cost into the components such as the heat pump and the installation etc. Most suppliers want to hide what they are charging for installation. I think the installation cost is reasonable given all the radiator changes.

[@terryrigden4860]

Very interesting, we are having a heat pump survey by Octopus tomorrow, you gave given me n idea of what to expect, thank you. We run a pressurised hot water system and it works well, I have insulated every pipe I can find, cheap and relatively easy. We use a lot less power than you do, just 2 of us in a 100m2 bungalow, much of our power comes from our solar panels and battery. You might like to consider getting them. You could simulate having a HP by turning down the flow temperature on your existing boiler, which would save you money anyway

[@DomSta03]

I reduced my combi from 65°c to 50°c in early October and by early March we'd used 25% less gas than prior year, with higher setback temperature so actually warmer when not heating. Similar average outdoor temperatures. So even though we have plastic microbore radiator pipes, using a heat pump is possible. I heat my water with spare solar & overnight cheap mains. No gas supply for dwh.

[@Cliffbrook1]

I was also concerned about the sizes of radiators that may be needed with a ASHP. So this winter I installed a energy meter this showed me the amount of energy being used in real time, very useful but also it allowed me to turn my oil boiler flow temp way down accurately, I turned it down to 37C and surprisingly for the majority of the time this works, rooms took a lot longer to warm up but it held its own down to about 5C outside when it started to loose the battle. At this point I turned the flow temp up to 50C and again it holds its own down to mild sub zero temperatures outside. This has given me the confidence that I won’t actually have to change many of my radiators, except in the kitchen and the bathroom both of which have always been underrated. A energy meters are about £150 but gives a lot of very useful real-time information to backup or disprove spreadsheet calculations.

[@evdabbler]

Thanks for sharing. But what do you mean by energy monitor in context of an oil boiler? I use extensively smart sockets with electricity monitor (see last video released) but not too sure what you are referring to here.

[@Cliffbrook1]

@@evdabbler Its a device that is installed into the flow and return to the boiler that measure the water flow rate and the flow and return temperatures, from this it can calculate assorts of information such as Kilowatts being emitted by the system, the temperature differentials between flow and return and the flow rates all in real time.

[@paulrattray8121]

@@Cliffbrook1 Care to name the product? I've been trying to find something to monitor gas boiler efficiency for awhile and was just starting to think how I'd make one.

[@hughrattray9354]

I have been running my has bolier at 40C and for most of the winter it is fine. I just need to upgrade a few rads to be able to run the whole winter at 40C. It gives me a lot of confidence a heat pump will work well. Also, when running at the lower temperatures I have kept the boilerr running for longer. I find this makes the house much more comfortable and I can reduce the temperature settings for the house.

[@hughrattray9354]

@@paulrattray8121 Look up Open Energy Monitor for information on Heat meters

[@roberthylden1571]

Thank you for that. Most interesting and made a lot of sense. I've been looking into having an ASHP fitted for some time but I don't think the industry has got there yet.

[@Soulrollsdeep]

It is VERY much there! Watch Heat Geek and you'll soon see :)

[@WanderingDutchman]

In Britain perhaps, 20 million European users would disagree.

[@coughlt]

Your videos are very informative. In my experience windows and insulation are key as a first step. Good windows and upgraded insulation will make a big difference as a starting point. Then I would look at the source of ‘heating and living’ energy. In my experience houses need different things based on the usage and life stage. Kids, teenagers etc 🫤 You seem like a clever man and no doubt will have your homework done. I like to plant lots of trees and flowers too..helps with the eco guilt…😊

[@evdabbler]

Thanks and you make an excellent point on the need to think about where one is at in the cycle of life. Also can one assume they will be in the same house in 1, 3, 5, 10 years? In which case value add/destruction as perceived by others matters too

[@matchmade44]

I agree, very useful. However, what's the point of such close analysis of the Octopus quote without first considering the scope to improve insulation and the cost structure of that work? Fabric First principles would say: insulate the house first, *then* specify your ASHP system. You should find that if you can reduce the heat losses with better windows, reduction of thermal bridging, draught-proofing, extra roof and floor insulation, and perhaps full or selective External and/or Internal wall insulation, that 10-11kW heat output could be reduced substantially. The money spent on these measures would then be recouped by not having such a fancy ASHP system, i.e. save money by removing the need to replace the radiators!

[@jasonsanderson3612]

My new boiler came with a 10 year manufacturer warranty. Surprised that these heat pump manufacturers give such short warranty on their product….sort of implies that they don’t have that much faith in the longevity of their product!

[@orange1666]

Unfortunately the majority of the green energy sector is full of chancers , BS merchants and crooks , for the vast majority of people they spend a fortune for no tangible gains , fill their house with expensive tech that most of the installers can’t fix and end up with bigger bills and future tech problems , as an engineer and very knowledgable person on passive house practices and building science etc I am very annoyed by the amount of sheer deception and incompetence in most of this green none sense , invest in insulation and draft proofing , investing in good ventilation and humidity control and when it comes to heating “Keep it simple”

[@MichaelPickles]

First thing we did was get 6 kw of solar, next steps is 3 phase power as you can not go over 10 kw of solar with out it. (ask for a fuse upgrade as this is free for a quote) do this before you get any more solar. Next big upgrade. already payed for, installing it now: 3X 12kw inverts in 3 phase config. 83 kw of lifepo4 battery's (priced at £240 per kwh, work out; total price divided by kwh) should save me £5500 a year Next step; 14.4kw of solar Heat pump 3 phase 3000 ltr buffer tank looking at seasonal storage. (5 ton sand & salt heat battery)

[@davidreece1642]

Great system. Which brands did you use for your panels/inverter/lifepo4 batts?

[@stevoone342]

Have you looked into Air-air heat pumps. Personally I may go for one due they are even more efficient than the water heat pumps also in summer act as ac also as dehumidifiers. And the big win it comes to a simulator price to replacing all my old electric radiators. Apx £5000 for 1 to 5 system installed. But still need to get it servayed first for an accurate price. But speaking to people who have air to air they all said it was way cheeper than the wet systems like octopus are flogging. And more efficient and easer for a reliable install.

[@paulrattray8121]

It depends whether you want the addictive hit of a fan heater vs stored heat within the fabric of the building

[@paularoberts8540]

Thankyou for this, really useful. I had a few quotes for heat pumps (not octopus) and certainly the calculations i had made and those the companies had provided were similar to yours - i.e Overall the runninng costs are broadly similar. It was good to see someone else get simialr outcomes. We haven’t commissioned our either but for different reasons, i think i need to priorotise the PV installation first. We’ve insulated as much as is possible/practical, the heat pump might follow in a year or two.

[@waqasahmed939]

Have a look into PassivHaus. More can be done regarding efficiency :)

[@davidreece1642]

I had a quote from Marvel heating, 25% on contract signing, 35% 3 weeks before installation, the rest on commissioning. So 10% initial deposit with Octopus is much better.

[@evdabbler]

Yes. Much better.

[@DanceShowFilming]

I'm getting an Octopus Heat Pump done in April May. Costing about £5.5K because of new pipes that have to be laid throughout the house from small 12cm to 21cm. Three new rads, an extra one from living room making three, and kitchen and bathroom from single to doubles rads of same size. I have a battery and solar panels so expecting this change to make a major difference to water and heating throughout the year from using Gas, which will be removed completely. From spring to autumn water and any heating should be with free sunlight. I will be aiming for a scop of over 4 and will run the temperature a little lower than 50, prob 40c, with an air temp of about 18c. Probably on for the entire day, turning down at night.

[@evdabbler]

Sounds like an ideal set-up, with a reasonable price tag when considering the changes

[@stephenbrown4615]

@@evdabbler Octopus can now AHSP AHSP with just 10mm new build pipe work without any upgrade to pipes!

[@yngndrw.]

I would not be happy with an SCOP of 3.56 - Anything less than 4 is not worth it IMO. I think the issue is that their design flow temperature of 50C is too high - It needs to be more like 40C for it to be viable. (Which means even larger radiators or improved insulation) You could consider type 33 radiators or underfloor heating (Or both) for the lunch area in order to reduce the number of them.

[@crm114.]

Excellent summary of the quote. Have to confess I’m a bit confused by their heat pump sizing. They estimate you need < 5kWh to heat the house but want to install a HP >2x that capacity which would make it inefficient. A good estimate of heat pump is your annual consumption divided by 2900. In your case it works out at about a 5.5kW heat pump. Increase by 20% if you live up North but that still works out at 6.5kW so 7kW unit would be more than adequate.

[@evdabbler]

Interesting rule of thumb. Thanks for sharing.

[@TC-V8]

Interesting video. I think however you are looking at this backwards. If you size your heatpump on the current - poor insulation, then in the future when you improve the insulation you heat pump will be over sized, and this will working less efficiently then a heat pump sized to your new lower heat loss.

[@evdabbler]

Fair point. A few notes though: a) note the conclusion on whether we re proceeding at this stage on this basis b) the idea was still to close down on some questions such as would we be cold, would it cost in etc... even on like for like basis. I think I have answered that for myself. Want to avoid keeping lots of questions open with "what if" scenarios.

[@waqasahmed939]

@@evdabbler Another thing to consider is that sadly the UK is heating up All heat pumps will become less efficient as time goes on then but ironically that'll make our heat pumps feel like they're performing better On the coldest days you get a COP of around 1.5 or so. The average COP would be higher when the temperature outside exceeds 5C

[@thamesmud]

Pressurised system was a massive improvement for us. I am increasing my solar PV array up to 17kwp and fitting a 35Kwh battery set. Once that's in and I get a handle on the amount of excess solar generation I will look at partial A2A heat pump system and just use the gas in the unproductive months in the winter.

[@evdabbler]

Serious generarion and storage power there.

[@matchmade44]

You could also use "energy cycling" with that battery, i.e. charge it up at night using low-cost electricity, then discharge it during the day for your local domestic requirements (including the ASHP) and saving a ton of money on peak-rate electricity. Exporting power from solar PV seems to offer very poor returns in comparison. Using gas may of course cease to be option once your boiler dies. The Chris Skidmore MP report of Jan 2023 recommended that the Government require *all* houses to be EPC C by 2033 (if you want to sell) and to ban all gas boiler installations from 2033 too. My money's on just using cheap electric panel radiators as a supplementary heat source, unless the Government breaks the link between gas and elec prices, or hydrogen boilers become viable.

[@wobby1516]

I’ve already two Powerwall batteries 27 kWh of storage and a solar system. The solar is great for the summer but winter time it’s not much good some days just a few kwhs That’s when the batteries take over, charge at night for 6 hour on cheap rate then run the heatpump during the day. That and dumping the gas standing charge make for cheap heating. As for the cost of it all, it’s improve the value of our house and the return on our money is better than on deposit at the bank. Luckily I also got solar installed in time for the FIT payment.

[@philbg208]

Thanks for the info. First video of seen of yours and very appropriate to me, as today I’ve filled out the online form with octopus for an ASHP quote. Interesting to see what they propose.

[@evdabbler]

Good luck with your ASHP considerations

[@wino99999]

Ok you asked - here it is: Purchased 1980's house in Dec 2003. Changed from old 60% efficient floor standing ideal Mexico RS80 (I think), to new Worchester-Bosch Greenstar 24i System Boiler, new Rads all round. Upstairs and Downstairs heating split, plus Thermostatic Rad valves. Also replaced old copper cylinder for Pressurised Stainless Steel at same time. I now run the boiler at a very low setting (40 degrees C) unless it's not copping with the cold outside, so I guess I'm doing my own Weather/Temp Compensation. Looking to install weather compensation maybe... Re-installed the new replacement windows due to issues with fit and drafts - Replacement window company was rubbish and wouldn't honour guarantee with new homeowner (me). Insulated Loft and Walls. New Front door, old one was very drafty. Radiator reflectors installed on outside walls. Thick Cloud 9 underlay for carpets. Fitted 4kW solar PV in Jan 2012. Fitted Solar Diverter in March 2019. All bulbs changed to LED.... Old Plasma changed for a new TV a couple of years ago - you'd be surprised how much that saved me! Biggest saving was probably splitting the upstairs and downstairs heating probably saved 20-30% off heating bill - although my step son also moved out around this time so trying to allow for this in figures. Loft insulation top up and draft proofing probably saved up to 25% off gas bill, and Solar PV saved initially 25% of Electric Bill, then later up to 50% off bills ,later due to PV diverter, saving gas due to water being heated for 8-9 months of the year (maybe up to 10 if a sunny year). Most of my appliances are 10+ years old except Freezer and TV. GAS: Went from using at a peak 191.58 down to 66.24kW/day over winter Electricity: Peak of 27.4 down to 6.94kW/day of electricity again over winter. Generated 38MWhrs of Electricity since PV installed - wish batteries lasted longer and were cheaper! Also would like government to consider Net Metering to encourage more take up of Solar PV and investments like Ripple Energy - my referral code: rippleenergy.com?ogu=2253 Most of the physical work I undertook myself except replacement Boiler, Cylinder, Wall Insulation, new Front door and Solar PV. Next things to do: Possibly insulating the roof to make it a warm roof... Aforementioned Weather Compensation for Boiler.... Fit More PV and possibly a battery as hopefully buying an Electric Car..... (MG EV4 anyone?) Look at further House insulation - but it is well into the law of diminishing returns......

[@randybobandy9828]

Why do you guys in Europe use water radiators to heat your homes? It seems so complicated and expensive compared to ducted and especially ductless heatpumps or even forced air gas furnaces. Instead of retrofitting or upgrading radiators why not use a 4-5 heat mini split? That way you can use it for air-conditioning and dehumidification on top of heating.

[@wino99999]

@@randybobandy9828 Don't really need too much air conditioning in the UK.... Boilers have been around for ages, a lot of newer houses are getting rid of Radiators in favour of underfloor heating (water filled loops). I would too but taking up the ground floor to install the loops in place of Rads is not on the agenda. Most UK houses don't have basements or floors with large voids underneath, so Ducted Air is out unless it's been built in. Mini Splits are ok if you have a small army of Aircon engineers available and the UK is struggling to have enough of them for heat pumps which seem to be the flavour of the month in place of traditional Gas burning boilers. And if you don't need the air conditioning side of the equation.... also you have to have a reasonable space outside for the compressor etc. and not mind the noise outside and all the insulated pipework. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Gas fired boilers were the majority of installed heating systems to traditional housing for some of the reasons already mentioned above. Our Houses are constructed differently, mostly brick built on concrete foundations out of the ground. Hence the easiest method of converting this traditional style in the 50/60's was with a boiler and copper pipe to steel/cast iron radiators. We also have mostly smaller gardens as we're a smaller country than the USA and others so space is at a premium. In fact a lot of housing stock was terraced in the 50's. Hence a Gas boiler became the norm, and nothings really changed that much up to now, except the transition to Heat Pumps has begun in order to heat enough water to warm the radiators even though that isn't the most efficient way as Splits would certainly be better in this regard.... Typical Gas boiler to heat a UK home costs around $1,000 plus fitting. Pipework is mostly already installed in most houses. Boiler is expected to give around 10-15 years life expectancy. Older cast iron ones never really broke. Hope that helps you understand how we got to be more dependant on radiator based heating than other area's of the world.

[@grahamharris3982]

@@randybobandy9828 I'd always thought that retrofitting UK housing stock for air systems wasn't feasible due to the lack of voids in the properties for transporting the hot air. I'm happy to be proved wrong on that. The main issue I have with it is air quality. I've lived in properties with air systems and the air quality was poorer in my experience.

[@matchmade44]

I agree: US and Canadian houses are much bigger than UK ones, so have more space for forced air boilers and ducting. They have much greater temperature extremes, hence combined heating and a/c makes sense. They also in general have more money and lower taxes on things like heating oil, so the houses and appliances are huge and very energy-hungry. In contrast draughts and breathable lime mortar in UK housing before the First World War were tolerated because they helped coal fires to draw and helped dry out our damp houses after all that British rain. Win99999 is completely right too that we have what was once the great luxury of piped natural gas over most of our small country, supplied from our own domestic North Sea resources. The pipework was built onto the existing network of piped Town Gas in the larger towns and cities; town gas was made by burning coal and was an alternative to traditional gas or wood open fires. Established systems ensure a lot of inertia. I know a heating engineer who in his early career made a fortune in the late 1960s - enough to buy his first house for cash (those were the days of houses worth 3 x average salaries) - by replacing old town gas meters with National Grid ones: he would work all hours and had the right to force entry into houses if people were not there or refused entry on their scheduled switchover day. Imagine the Government trying to do that nowadays with so-called Smart Meters!

[@normanboyes4983]

I realise this is four months old and you may have moved on by now. But it is worth considering putting in underfloor heating in the ground floor - there are ‘nuclear ‘options (digging up the floor) or compromise options ( overboarding). This will obviously obviate the need for radiators and will enable the heat pump to run at lower flow temperatures and thus more efficiently.

[@jolneycheri]

I run my heat pump at around 32 degrees at 6 degrees outside using oversized radiators and trust me it works perfectly, just installed a homely optimiser which has further increased the scop, although i do stress recently fitted.

[@Nikoo033]

It seems to me that the order for the upgrades should be: 1: new windows and insulation. Over the years, we have saved ~22% on gas energy usage (heating+hot water) just by having cavity insulation done and replacing old double-glazed windows with better ones. 2: solar PV. You can now get a 4kWp installation for ~£3000-£4000 in the UK. Then ASHP. I don’t know how much power these use at any given time, but I would have thought that the solar could provide some of the electricity used by the ASHP?

[@evdabbler]

Insulation first definitely. Plain brick houses reduce the scope of the (reasonably) possible. Solar means a good roof that is not ripe for replacing, no asbestos etc... and I am not clear you can have a 4kW peak for £4k anymore, at least not in south East GB that I have seen.

[@Nikoo033]

@@evdabbler you are right that it is currently more around £5000 for a 4kW system (no battery). But companies that do it for £3000-£4000 do exist… I just don’t want to mention any and then get shouted at 😂

[@philipbroggio9315]

We have 4.2kWp system which produced around 4200kWh. We run our Octopus 7kW ASHP from about 04:30 to get a couple of hours of cheap GO and on cold sunny days soak up solar . We also use an eddi for DHW . Every little helps but means we car our EV more at night but that's OK as the aim is to use as much solar as possible. Thinking a battery is final step but also have investment in Ripple 2 which will offset the running costs . Even so I estimate we are saving about £700/year versus gas . If we had only standard rate electric it would be about £100.

[@evdabbler]

@@philipbroggio9315 many thanks for sharing your experience. Very helpful

[@philipbroggio9315]

@@evdabbler Other observations are that Octopus sized system on -2⁰c external temp with 50⁰c flow temp. When we got to those conditions in December we found the house was getting too hot ! We had weather comp set at 50⁰@-2⁰ext/ 35⁰@18⁰ext initially. Gradually tweaked the settings to 50⁰@-15⁰/28⁰@20⁰:and this maintains around 20⁰ downstairs and 18⁰ upstairs. Thermostat set at 21⁰ during day and 18⁰ at night. We have achieved an sCOP of about 3.5 since last June . In December it was more like 3.0 but in milder conditions getting more like 4.1.

[@Joe-lb8qn]

Question. We often see that radiators are replaced for heat pump installations to get the best efficiency and make the heat pump work for many rooms. Could i therefore get a good and reasonably priced payback >with an existing gas boiler< by simply replacing my existing single radiators with larger double depth radiators? Because as well as increasing efficiency, if i later move to a heat pump I'd be at least partly prepared anyway? Did you look at this afterwards?

[@evdabbler]

I certainly am not the expert but understand that's an approach people take, lowering the temperature on their existing boiler meaning better heating efficiency. This assumes you have that level of control - not our case here.

[@lawrenceharris1819]

Disappointing visit from Octopus today. Before the appointment I completed a *detailed* paper documenting the solar thermal and the battery system. Today's Octopus surveyor knew nothing about my information (!) and gradually realised that Octopus could not install a heat pump without us previously dismantling a fully working thermal system. A virtually wasted visit due to lack of communication between Octopus staff.

[@mrhignettshorses]

Did you get any other quotes? The EV puzzle channel thought that they were oversizing everything as they did not want any complaints of cold houses to put future sales off.

[@evdabbler]

Yes and at an early stage of maturity i would think that s probably right

[@barryhaeger4284]

A really helpful and timely video as I had my Octopus survey last Friday and their 10808 kW Heat-Loss calculation and I'm now waiting on the Quote! My Gas consumption in past 12 months suggests about 13,000 kWh but I'm not sure how much that has been affected by my switch over to heating DHW electrically rather than by my Gas Boiler about 5 months ago so that I could lower my Flow Temperature to 50C of less at the start of the winter. I have Octopus Go, at time of writing, and I have invested in Ripple Wind Turbine for about 3500 kWh offset from this coming October. Octopus surveyor seemed not to want to include extra radiators but wanted to upscale significantly neally all of the radiator sizes, even though there was existing pipework where the previous owner had removed a radiator - refitting the radiator to the pipework would double the radiator capacity in the lounge without changing the one lounge radiator for an enormous triple!

[@evdabbler]

Well done for jumping on the bandwagon of Ripple. I am eagerly waiting for phase 3.

[@zakwilcoxen9144]

If you call the person who is managing your quote they can change or add a new radiator. Following on from mine last week I called and increased the size of most of the one's they quoted us as I want to target a 45 or 40 degree flow temperature but could not do this during the survey as one radiator was a bit too small and difficult to upgrade due to room layout. They have also connected me with a technical installer and approved the system being integrated with open energy monitor and the myeddi device we have from solar pv install. I admit I had my doubts but as others have said they seem to be doing things right, Just waiting on a new EPC that ads the cavity wall insulation and some other minor updates so we can go ahead and get the BUS grant.

[@robbrookes4889]

Thanks for this. We hope to get a heat pump fitted and this has been a really useful video as to price we can expect to pay and the possible need for more radiators

[@evdabbler]

Thank you. Good luck

[@gtubbs6974]

He doesn't need more radiators - just replacements.

[@denisbassom172]

Superb real life review, thanks

[@thevaf2825]

I've been going though the process myself. I realised every single plumber has their own manufacturer and solution they prefer installing. As a result I couldn't trust anything I was told and had to run the numbers for myself. After doing so, I was coming to the same conclusion as you have. It's not really worth it.

[@Disi2008]

I was a bit disappointed by Octopus. We bought a new/old house and our boiler was broken, I rang them up and asked for a quote to install an ASH. They wanted £500 in advance to come out and do the quote. The requirement was that we switch to them as a supplier, replace most/all of our radiators and all piping (which increased the cost dramatically). The explanation was that the house needs to be 100% compliant with the requirements, even though we have fille cavity walls and do not need much heating. They do not do half measures, it seems. In the end we went with iHeat to replace and move the boiler, next year we do the pipes and radiators/floor heating.

[@evdabbler]

I can see how they would do belt and braces for now in a scale up phase. There is so much noise around heat pumps "but they don't work". If i were them rather take disappointment on survey than on completion of £10k worth of works.

[@axelc8611]

Shouldn’t radiator upgrades be included in the price of the original quote you get online that’s what it says on there website

[@Umski]

I like the fact that your dimensioning matches their actual calcs. I am surprised that they are going for a 50C design temp since you are being quoted for a load of rad upgrades anyway - have you had comparable quotations in terms of spec? Heat Geeks?

[@evdabbler]

No. I have not gone through other quotes at this stage.

[@SuperDiagnostic]

Interesting... On my Octopus quote: I am not overly happy with the refrigerant (gas) used, in the now obsolete Daikin (EDLQ) heat-pump, which is R410A. Daikin are now producing a far more easily controlled, efficient and environmentally friendly R32 gassed heat-pump. It appears Octopus have bought up all the old stock therefore enabling them to be cost competitive, they're clearly not being open about this fact.

[@evdabbler]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing

[@juliandclarke]

Agreed. My Daikin is R32

[@grahamharris3982]

My original quote was for an R410 heat pump but I spoke to the installation team and they requoted for an R32 pump. Daikin state that R32 is about 10% more efficient than R410. The main issue with R410 is its global warming potential, which is far higher.

[@nettie1022]

@@grahamharris3982 thanks for the information, something to watch out for.

[@icereturns7867]

The heat pump featured in this video is model EDLA11D3V3, which is an R32 pump. So it looks like Octopus do have them. Although what you say is worth keeping an eye out for. Thanks 👍

[@DrRogB]

We got four quotations and weren't happy with any of them. Too much double counting and not enough technical justification. This looks better so I would recommend people look at Octopus and a few other suppliers. As to the extra radiators its obvious that you just need big 2m long radiators. I assume there isn't much space to put them anywhere so they have defaulted to the vertical ones. You might like to consider changing the room around.

[@gordonstutchbury4593]

In my case I wanted piping under the floor or in the loft and Octopus refused to do it so I never got as far as a quote.

[@mrhignettshorses]

I know it would cost another 6-7£1000's but if you had battery storage you could run the pump off your cheap rate electricity.

[@AndrewEbling]

I don't think many batteries could cover the power draw completely.

[@jimhignett6993]

@@AndrewEbling Would it need to be 'completely'?

[@AndrewEbling]

@@jimhignett6993 no not necessarily. I suppose it depends on your goals, but if you are aiming to maximise solar self-consumption and minimise grid draw, it's desirable. An ASHP would also work a battery very, very hard - would be prudent to assume it would need to be replaced by the end of the warranty period.

[@waqasahmed939]

@@AndrewEbling Thermal batteries can but they're not cheap

[@MrKlawUK]

what is your m2 for your house? 11kw seems quite a lot for a 3 bed semi? Looking briefly at your heat loss calcs you don’t have cavity wall and no insulated floor? If you could get more insulation and downsize the HP, you may get away with fewer radiators - we have two large ones in our living room and although we don’t have a HP, we can run gas hot water at HP temps to keep warm (testing dry run for ‘heat pump ready’)

[@evdabbler]

Correct. No floor insulation and no cavity walls. It s a good size semi with extension. Thanks.

[@enesvital321]

I was so exited hearing 7500 grant wow then i tought let me install, octupus quoted me total cost 10 504£. With 7 500£ gov grant i have to pay extra 3 004£ . I live UB1 post code two bed flat. I am happy with my gas boiler.

[@evdabbler]

If and when the gas boiler fails sounds like a similar net price to install a new boiler or a heat pump though?

[@kevinjackson6387]

Just get new boiler far to dear even with the grant

[@neilhardy8211]

I have recently moved into a 1930 s terraced bungalow. I am installing triple glazing and I am upgrading my insulation to 300mm in the loft. My aim is to have a heat pump and if I can afford it solar panels. Of course I am on a budget since divorce. I think the hot water would be better left gas. A small gas water heater is only 5 to 6 hundred and the infrastructure is already there. So I would go for that rather than the faff and bulk of electrical water heating.

[@evdabbler]

Sounds good to start with insulation. I'll probably post a video on electric vs gas heating in the cylinder. Long and short of it is that in my experience electric with immersion heater seems to be much more efficient (like a kettle)

[@ronmaren4135]

Amazing video. Thank you. Do you have asthma?

[@chesshooligan1282]

Thanks for the video; it's saved me a lot of trouble. £5,600 for installation costs is mental. It's going to be a pass for me.

[@richardgregory3684]

And that's with the HUGE subsidy, anyonr who thinks the government is going to hand out £7,500 to the 30,000,000 homes across the whole UK is bonkers.

[@johnpedelty3866]

What is the cost of an annual service and maintenance contract for a heat pump and what is its life expectancy?

[@simonstead8495]

I have just accepted Octopus' quote and added the optional £9/mo maintenance.

[@lukeadamson9662]

Do you know if Octopus fit vented or unvented cylinders? Thanks for the video very informative.

[@evdabbler]

Thanks and good question. I assumed that it would be unvented, which is what you can see on the octopus materials. But I did not ask so cannot confirm.

[@philipbroggio9315]

We had our Octopus system installed last June. We had an unvented system with a booster pump which was noisy and not great pressure. Now have unvented system which is a massive improvement. We heat with the heat pump to 50⁰c but also have solar and an eddi diverter to top up to 60⁰c . Working well.

[@neilashdown6854]

Our house was built in 1878 fitted a RED 16 KW heat pump last year turned it on last October my SCOP is currently 7.9. We have sized all the radiators at 30C flow at -3 and the heating curve is set to 30-37 and all new oversized pipe work. We have installed all new triple glazing and added super foil SFG 19 to al, the outside walls. We run the system 24 by 7 no room stats only TRV to stop rooms overheating and we average 20 C across 10 rooms. End result massive disruption huge cost really comfortable house and low energy bills.

[@evdabbler]

Yes sounds like a big undertaking but with fantastic outcome.

[@neilashdown6854]

@@evdabbler yes not one for the faint hearted its a retirement project so just the two of us living here so we can put up with the disruption and I am a retired M&E engineer and a competent DIY enthusiast so plumbing and electrical works are not an issue. The key is low and slow with the design of heat pumps and the insulation we added the insulation to the inside of the outside walls lost about 200 mm of the room dimensions and 80mm 120 mm off the room height as each room is now an fully insulated box floor walls and ceilings. we have also installed a heat recovery system to make sure we don't get a condensation problem. Once complete you wont get a lot of change out off 50K for materials and plastering decorating etc. I am not new to heat pumps and have had a 6 Kw Daikin heat pump heating the wife's boarding cattery underfloor heating system for the last 12 years. the cattery system is turned on 1st October and off end off April again no stat and a 25 to 30 heating curve maintains constant 19C across 150 sqm heating 19 tons of screed topped with ceramic tiles. once the house renovation is fully complete i am hoping to run a similar heat curve of 25 to 30C and leave the heating system on all the time and use an outside sensor to call for heat if the outside temp drops below 14C for more than two hours as 14 C is the point the house internal temp starts to drop below 19C. sorry to waffle on but you did ask for feedback.

[@matchmade44]

Neil, may I ask why you decided to go with IWI rather than EWI? Both can involve painful aesthetic choices if you have attractive period features like decorative plaster or richly-varied brickwork and other features. External wall insulation can also be really tricky around window reveals, corbels and the like, as can trying to eliminate cold bridges and connect to loft and floor insulation to create that "fully insulated box". What issues did you encounter installing the Superfoil SF19, and how effective has it proved in terms of insulation compared to your original plan? I assume you're having to get an RdSAP assessment done to get through Building Regulations and produce a new EPC. There is still a lot of scepticism in the UK market about multifoils compared to using Celotex, Kingspan etc but I am attracted to them because they look so easy to install for both roof and wall insulation once you've got your timber battens right, especially for detailed areas like windows, other junctions and pipework penetrations of the building envelope. I'm puzzled too why the IWI needed to be 200mm deep if you only used Superfoil?

[@neilhardy8211]

Also is air to air more efficient than air to water.

[@jchidley]

Yes, your radiators (heat emitters) will need to be much more powerful (i.e. larger and more of them) because your flow temperature will be lower (50C or less). This is unavoidable with changing from a gas boiler which has a much higher flow temperature (say 80C). I have been slowly replacing mine and upgrading my pipe work over the years.

[@evdabbler]

Sounds like a good way to get ready. I understand there are benefits to be had (better efficiency) of running a conventional system at lower flow temps too.

[@Nikoo033]

Never had my boiler at more than 55deg setting for heating 😂

[@matchmade44]

Running the house at 21 degrees all day and night seems excessive - or have I missed something in terms of using controls to time when the heating comes on and how warm it is at different times of day? An alternative to the oppressive four radiators in the Lounge would be to install hot-water underfloor heating. You can get very thin-profile pipes nowadays that can sit on top of (preferably well-insulated) existing floors, and on first and higher floors too, not just ground floor. UFH is very well-suited to the low temperature output of ASHP, and it is a much nicer heat than the air convection produced by radiator. My experience is that you can easily run a room at an air temperature of 18-19 degrees but because your feet feel warm, you don't notice the reduction from, say 20-21 degrees with radiators.

[@malcolm8564]

Radiators come in various configurations not just dimensions. e.g. some of mine are doubled and also finned.

[@evdabbler]

Yes, you re right

[@paulrattray8121]

It does feel a lot like you are spending money for little financial gain. You might feel better making a smaller carbon footprint, but that's pretty much it. Your thinking should really be how to insulate and reduce air changes since that reduces the heating demand. Then size a modulating ASHP which will cope with -5C but will be equally happy turning over in the shoulder months. Then add a battery system that can charge on the overnight price to supply the house and heating during the day. Then throw some PV on the roof to reduce the bills. After you've spent the thick end of £40k, your elec bills will be near zero. Mind you, after 10 years, the kit will have aged, and you'll need to shell out to renew it all again.

[@evdabbler]

There are many departments when it comes to house spending where your financial gain will be nil or very negative, e.g. "let's redo the kitchen". Improving home energy efficiency by a factor of 2 to 3 is not a bad objective in itself.

[@wasbeen]

Great video, very real world situation.

[@narcissusecho7469]

Great breakdown, one thing to remember is after 2025 properties will not be allowed to be rented out with an EPC lower than C, I am supposing this will pass through to mortgages shortly after for all homes making the property harder to sell and possibly discounting it for the upgrades required to reach C. I maybe wrong but it looks like this is the direction it is going.

[@evdabbler]

And if you ask me I think this is the right direction, as long as there is selective support for those who need it, and/or better income tax breaks for those volunteering the changes early.

[@lharris828]

Disappointed with Octopus. The surveyor had *not* been briefed by Octopus despite my form-filling and did not know about the solar panels or thermal water systems so wasted hours and Octopus have not given us a quote! We were told that the thermal system would have to be dismantled (!!!!!!) . Shocking result.

[@evdabbler]

Very disappointing as you say!

[@lharris828]

Further development! Octopus admitted that their surveyor was not updated and we have agreed to a 'replay'! Later this week.....

[@wobby1516]

A couple of points that I think is worth mentioning. Why do people talk about payback? Nobody said that when we gave up the coal fire for the whole house central heating. Sooner or later the gas boiler has to go and when it does it makes sense to adopt this new technology, a gas boiler has 10-15 year of life a heat-pump hopefully 25 years although I suspect some repairs may be necessary. I think as the year go by gas is going to get dearer in relation to electricity and more of us will fit solar as I have and a battery will become commonplace. Lastly the emissions, we have to reduce emissions for the sake of this planet and those who come along after us, surely we oh that to our grandchildren and beyond.

[@evdabbler]

Well said

[@georgealty9009]

100%. I've had the same argument on a local social media site where people want to know payback on a 6k solar system. The same people blow thousands on holidays kitchens or cars, but never question why they don't " payback" - one downside of the FIT I suppose.

[@evdabbler]

@@georgealty9009 if you read "how bad are bananas" by Mike Berners Lee, there is a section on solar panels payback... but of course it's carbon payback. 5yr to break even. He estimates every £130 invested in solar saving 1t CO2e over the lifetime. I know your point is that of the pointless nature of looking for £ payback. But the reality is that there is another currency, CO2e, which very few people care about and for which we should all be asking more questions about costs and payback.

[@iansmith788]

What type of heating do you have? An air to water ASHP retrofit can cost £15k less boiler replacement grant and service costs of £150 per annum, a lot of money. A cheaper solution is an air to air ASHP which doesn’t use the existing radiators and pipe work just air diffusers.

[@Vinegar290]

excellent

[@davidw460]

Sorry to say but my experience says a good gas boiler outlasts a good ASHP. Boiler has moving parts and any maintenance is quick and easy from thousands of gas safe installers.

[@evdabbler]

Probably a case of maturity of the industry though? At some stage wouldn't we expect to see more installers/service engineers sufficiently familiar with ASHP?

[@waqasahmed939]

Things that have less moving parts tend to be more reliable Equally, industries in their infancy also tend to have less reliable products.

[@lawrenceharris1819]

The end of the line. After 6 months of complete inactivity by Octopus they finally responded to query by blaming us for enquiring about 'progress'. Shoddy customer treatment.

[@gtd65]

I had a free heat pump installed via an area based scheme in Scotland and my summary is quite simple. If you want to spend far more money on heating your home, get an ASHP. If you want to save money, stick with fossil fuel. I would been outraged if I'd spent the £12000 it cost to install this ASHP system and ended up with vastly increased bills and my experience is not unique. The madness of the ASHP, is that we've now installed a wood burning stove. This was never even a consideration when the house was heated with Kerosene. We have the Mitsubishi Ecodan system and the running costs, so far, are outrageous. One other point that is very apparent is the fact that there appears to be a complete lack of people that can actually advise you how to use the ASHP efficiently and actually save money. Get them installed and move on the the next property, seems to be the real motivation.

[@paulrattray8121]

I think you were visited by the cowboys. Sadly the industry is in it's infancy in the UK and many installers are motivated by the grant and fast turnover with the hope that when you realise they did a bad job, they can't be traced. The only reliable installers I've heard about are the ones on the Heat Geek map.

[@gtd65]

@@paulrattray8121 it seems there's a whole posse out there? I've only met one person that's been happy with changing to an ASHP. He's a Green/Communist type, so that might be easily discounted. Everybody else, simply says they are far too expensive to run. I think our ASHP needs a bit of tweaking and a much lower cost of electricity, then it would be fine.

[@robbrookes4889]

@@gtd65 I have met many people who say they are very happy, but most have done it for the environment rather than cost as EV dabbler recognises. To do that is a good thing and it is something most of us will do over the next 10 to 15 years but the early adapters will probably pay more. For those who can afford it you are doing a very worthwhile bit to help to reduce the costs of those who currently can't and to reduce climate heating. Thanks.

[@gtd65]

@@robbrookes4889 thing is, this isn't a new technology, where you could consider people being early adopters in 2023. There's already been an "investment" of over £25K worth of measures installed into the home to supposedly improve energy efficiency. All of these additional measures have a carbon footprint. The real problem is the cost of electricity.

[@robbrookes4889]

@@gtd65 Can't comment from personal experience. Maybe in a years time but it seems to me the technology is new in terms of mass adoption. We are hoping to have a heat pump fitted this summer but the reason is not really to save costs but to do what we can to stop the burning of fossil fuels. We do have solar panels that produce much more than we use through from about April to October so we should save some though not probably enough to pay for the initial outlay which we expect to be around £8000. Electric is currently around 3 x the price of gas so running costs should be about the same. From a friend who is very happy with her heat pump.She lives in a detached suburban 4 bedroomed estate house. >>We generate 75% of the electricity we use to heat and power our house and drive our electric car from the 32 solar panels on our roof aided by a battery. Unfortunately we use more electricity in the winter and generate most of our electricity in the summer.

[@michaeldepodesta001]

Dear EV Dabbler: good morning. I admire very much your empirical approach and your video is a model of rationality. Using this technique (kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnTImJuBlpifn68) for estimating heat pump size it looks to me like your suggested heat pump size (11 kW) is a very significant overestimate - perhaps by a factor 2 - depending on where your home is precisely. And that may impact on the number of radiator replacements you require. I saw that you had calculated all the relevant parameters to estimate your HTC - the number of watts it takes to heat your home 1 °C above background. That is the key to your problem. However a design case of 24 °C of delta T is very high: in most cases 20 °C is already excessive. In any case - good luck with your endeavours. Your conclusions the heat pump will save CO2 emissions but not (much) money is I think very solid. But if you use a battery with your Octopus Go tariff, I think the cost savings are VERY large - that has been my experience. In any case: best wishes. M

[@harrynewiss4630]

No

[@kurtcleary6794]

Your accent is wild m8

[@nickmelton9772]

Be grateful for any Europeans actually staying here on the sinking ship!

[@budnwiser0]

If heat pump were so good and net zero was true. Why are uk councils not getting them for council housing so all council house are gong to net zero like the private sector. Private rents has to have it. Yet council house are not. Till all council housing its done all private should not spend on heat pumps. Remember EV cars are being tax on wieght in a few years yet we were told they dont need be taxed when came out but ev are heavy and damage roads and bridges. The climate change is a CON that whole of parliament no matter the party is spreading to take money out of drivers pockets.

[@WanderingDutchman]

HP Britain is decades behind the rest of Europe. Council estates are better served with ground, water or waste heat networks, rather than individual ASHPs.

[@wobby1516]

EVs damage roads and bridges? Your having a laugh, Lorry’s, busses and large vans are far heavier than most EVs. That just another anti EV argument that simple doesn’t hold water.

[@noelburke6224]

You are all so called experts now just like the armchair generals

[@waqasahmed939]

Nobody said they're experts?

[@gtubbs6974]

I think you have misinterpreted the radiator chart - Octopus installed mine and that column shows the radiators they replaced. Nothing was added. Mine were mostly swapped single panels for doubles and my main living room radiator was replaced by one 30% longer. The installation took a week and so far I've been very pleased both with my ASHP and with Octopus.

[@evdabbler]

Thanks and good to hear.