Helen Lewis on feminism, Jordan Peterson, faith and the culture wars

Helen Lewis is a journalist, broadcaster and staff writer for The Atlantic. She is the author of 'Difficult Women: A History of Feminism in 11 Fights’ and has been writing and speaking about feminism, gender, and the culture wars for several years... and occasionally gets caught up in them herself, including a viral interview with Jordan Peterson for GQ.
Justin and Belle chat to Helen about the religious instincts that seems to underly secular activism on both the left and right, and whether she sees any way forward in re-enchanting feminism and the culture wars of our day.
For Helen Lewis: helenlewiswrites.com/
For Re-Enchanting: www.seenandunseen.com/podcast
There’s more to life than the world we can see. Re-Enchanting is a podcast from Seen & Unseen recorded at Lambeth Palace Library, the home of the Centre for Cultural Witness. Justin Brierley and Belle Tindall engage faith and spirituality with leading figures in science, history, politics, art and education. Can our culture be re-enchanted by the vision of Christianity?

[@designforlife704]

She's all over the place.

[@MikeFuller-ok6ok]

I like what she has done with her hair.

[@MikeFuller-ok6ok]

I really like her shirt too.

[@MrMurph73]

What does she say thats all over the place?

[@akkarin1225]

No

[@nothingmakessense2]

Jp exposed her. Now she’s talking about Spotify playlist

[@CursedWheelieBin]

Hell hath no fury, though I don’t think he necessarily scorned her. He just criticised her borrowed ideas. Not her personally. She’s not doing a very good job concealing her bitter hatred for him 😂

[@noahmizrahi9934]

So if Jordan Peterson was a true Christian he wouldn't call out the hypocrisy of the left? Her shallow reasoning is bizarre.

[@John__-ie3od]

Funny how she think JP wasn't into Christian thinking. JP literally has a catalogue on the Bible in KZbin pre-2015. Also, someone should ask her about her marriage. LOL

[@bobwinner8936]

Jordan Peterson made Helen Lewis's Oxford degree look like it fell out a packet of cornflakes. She got schooled. Hard.

[@abhilashswami9228]

19:47 Reason you came

[@Joeonline26]

Nope, nope, and nope. Within 30seconds she's already rambling on about the ''right wing nationalism' buggyman and trying to associate Peterson with it.We don't want this dishonest, ideological nonsense.

[@CursedWheelieBin]

It’s her only dance move🤷🏻‍♂️

[@MarioAltaire]

JBP tore her a new one

[@BoffinGrusky]

I'm quite sure that even a glimpse of the old one would be traumatizing. 🤣

[@christopher_ecclestone]

He turned her into what the kids call A Meme Cow!

[@akkarin1225]

What a mature and differentiated statement

[@bobshuwab1988]

A new what?

[@markaurelius61]

It’s so facile to rope Jesus into your cause, as her mother did at 22:16 saying Jesus was a communist. Jesus never addresses political structures. He talks about people’s motivations. Jesus is not a humanist. His solution to humanity’s problems come from aligning the heart with God.

[@heelflip365]

lol gay

[@markaurelius61]

@@heelflip365 Straight

[@nottheonlydreamer9512]

As much as I disagree with much of what she has to say, her point about atheists being offended by the idea of seeing themselves as treating their politics like a religion because they consider themselves rational is a very important one. It highlights the arrogance that rationalism brings with it, resulting in people seeing themselves as above natural human impulses, such as the impulse for spirituality. This arrogance is a key driver behind many of the political divisions in modern society IMO

[@henrybelts3414]

hell yeah brother, that's true.

[@dhadad9885]

There’s no natural impulse for spirituality. We are pattern seeking mammals and we try to make sense of things, often when there’s no logical or rational explanation can be found. We often would settle for a poor and lousy explanation than none at all. That’s what people like Jordan Peterson do. There ARE NO BOOKS that gets offered the kind of charitable reading that the holy books get. And we can simply stop this practice and read them as they are not as what we wish they were or what they intend to mean.

[@DutchMadness77]

That's just people being generally too stupid to make rational arguments than atheism being inherently arrogant. It's a non-sequitur to say that atheists HAVE TO find a new religion in the political framework to fill in the gap. Not all atheists are rational, but religion is absolutely not rational.

[@dracolusus]

@@henrybelts3414 What is true about it?

[@justaguy328]

Worship of the intellect. They have a full on meltdown if you even suggest that they have faith. Faith is for those made of lesser clay.

[@zeno2501]

There's a certain arrogance to this lady unfortunately. And she doesn't seem to have a great understanding of any particular thing she talks about. It feels like I'm listening to someone who has a 30% understanding of each topic and who is more concerned with making silly comments like Jesus was a communist. She can only say that confidently because she has a 30% understanding of Jesus and communism. A good interview nonetheless. Thank you.

[@Joeonline26]

Amazing to observe, isn't it. Constantly wading in on topics she doesn't understand and ends up making a fool of herself repeatedly. And yet she seems to be under the impression that what she's saying is profound and worth listening to. She's like a walking, talking example of the Duning-Kruger effect😂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂

[@CursedWheelieBin]

Dunning-Krueger effect in action. Sad to see but there it is

[@BoffinGrusky]

It might be arrogance, but it might also be overcompensation. She clearly possesses a degree of native intelligence, and paradoxically, it probably serves to heighten her awareness of her own damaged psyche.

[@akkarin1225]

I thought you were talking about JP for a second there

[@MalachiCove]

Let her try her hand again in debate with Jordan Peterson again, then we will again see the wheat separated from the chaff.

[@mokeboi3328]

She has no understanding of the bible...so much straw manning going on....and what can one say about Brierley?..."errr"...."sort of"..."kind of".....i expect a seasoned host to be more articulate than that....what a vapid dialogue

[@TheJohnCooperShow]

You'd have thought after Jordan Peterson took Helen to the sword and meticulously and systematically broke apart her ideologically possessed worldview, she would come back after a few months, with a sense of humility, with an infusion of new perspectives that she's garnered from, questioning her old tired feminist dogma, and lefty guardian newspaper talking points, realising the error of her ways, and showing more independent thinking, yet here she is years later, doubling down and showing the exact same Helen we saw pre-JBP interview. Disappointing but I can't say I'm surprised.

[@simonbooth1622]

Can’t listen to all of this, I do not think she is coming from a point of nuance or honesty

[@christopher_ecclestone]

She's never honest. But these people can't be because their entire world view/ideology is built on untruths, so everything that follows from it is untruthful.

[@akkarin1225]

I do. But to each their own

[@bobshuwab1988]

What else do you not think?

[@dinuraboody1249]

Her career is still stuck on her bad-faith interview with Jordan Peterson from 2018? Sad.

[@whites91]

Never has someone so intelligently vacant been so confident. What an insufferable human.

[@swiggsoclock]

She hit the nail on the head several times there

[@diogeniscruyff1084]

A term for a lunatic is when he is repeating the same mistakes again and again. And then there is false pride too..

[@dsmm8232]

Funny how she says it's hard to find out people think you hold ideas you don't really hold (she did that with Jordan Peterson) and funnier still to hear her say that she rejects stereotypes and "women being all the same" when in her GQ interview she described JP with nothing but feminin stereotyped characteristics (dressing well, enjoyed being with his children, etc). Well read, intelligent perhaps but sadly confused woman.

[@jr1734]

Genuinely looks like she had a breakdown after that JP interview. She's a mess and not a hot one.

[@StanWeiner]

😂

[@akkarin1225]

How is her appearance of any substance here. Shallow and mysogynstic take

[@allisterwhitehead]

I really don't think her interview with JP went at all well. Despite her "toxic masculinity, patriarchy" mantra, ironically it was Helen who was condescending, aggressive and unnecessarily rude. Nothing has stood in her way but like so many prominent feminists, she is a living, breathing contradiction to her own sanctimonious and ultimately academic beliefs. BBC Radio 4 beckons.

[@allie9928]

34:01 Unfortunately I've seen this line of argument involving "evolving gender norms" utilized to gaslight women, including gender critical feminists. The idea goes that if you're uncomfortable being around a male person in a dress, you must believe in traditional roles and need to unlearn your conservative bigotry. This overlooks the reality that men and women sometimes engage the same behavior (ie:cross dressing) for different reasons and that some male people specifically crossdress for fetishistic purposes (ie: Autogynephillia, Sissification/humiliation fetishes). I would never condemn a woman for following her instincts and removing herself from a situation in which she believes herself to be a non-consensual participant in a man's sexual expression. But I fear too many would be ready to shame her in the name of "evolving norms".

[@CursedWheelieBin]

Her right to feel safe is more important than tiptoeing around some pervert’s feelings 👍

[@hinahinananoha7783]

I think the history of dress is missing from this argument. Men have worn all sorts of things even in the last 2000y including but not only roman clothes, little tunics, colorful jackets in 1700s etc. not to mention the robes of middle ages times. There is nothing inherently womanly about dresses that were worn between 1920s and 1950s, you know, the classic reasonable dress.

[@christopher_ecclestone]

​@@hinahinananoha7783It isn't the item of clothing that people have a problem with. It's the pretending to be something they're not, and trying to force others to go along with it that's the issue. And also the twisted ideology that's behind it all.

[@MikeFuller-ok6ok]

I like what Helen as done with her hair. I really like her shirt too.

[@user-qm8sc1jr9u]

she is disgusting

[@ianlarsen]

This was a really interesting discussion, taking in a range of topics fairly quickfire, and she gives a lot of respect to people with various perspectives and shows that she knows her way around where they're coming from. All the Peterson fans who are just barking in the comments saying, "Oh no it's that woman who challenged him 6 years ago, bleurgh," are doing themselves a disservice by feeling so high and mighty.

[@Maranatha-rk7lh]

Interestingly, Helen mentioned the word "soul". Indeed, a human is more than matter. From there, it's only a small step to believe in God who is a soul, too, only mightier, holier, perfect and more loving than us. We are persons, have a self, bc God is personal.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

First?

[@thibauteast1620]

Interesting, although not surprising, seeing you here sir! My KZbin channel subscriptions probably overlap a lot with yours, I’m a big admirer of your work

[@PaulVanderKlay]

@@thibauteast1620Thank you!

[@akkarin1225]

Very bright woman in search of truth, with her heart in the right place

[@flvflv4712]

😂😂😂😂

[@jmprov356]

Jordan Peterson did her a favor by granting an interview in the first place. What a shallow lightweight she is.

[@hinahinananoha7783]

Surprising how many of his fans are trying to insult her, without actually presenting arguments. Hardly giving him much credit😮

[@jmprov356]

@@hinahinananoha7783 Not "insulting" her....evaluating her performance. Lightweight. You're free to hold a different opinion.

[@motisvaritia6045]

thats quite unfair, she pushed back enough to give JP one of the strongest interviews, if it was just a yes sayer it would have not been interesting at all

[@akkarin1225]

Baffling to me how people can view her as dumb or dishonest, she might be one of the most differentiated, humble and considerate journalists I have seen. In the same way, and I know Im going against the crowd here, I found her arguments to be very constructive and informed in her interview with JP; he on the other hand was talking over her constantly, using strawmans and mostly following his own thoughts, without being able to even consider her perspective genuinly for a moment.

[@nelsonang]

the tree of the knowledge of good and evil…

[@n-tertainmentx-tended4760]

I don't agree with anything Helen says, but let's not pretend she's a monster. She's still a human being.

[@rayyf69]

One of the principle causes of human mortality, exploitation and oppression has been other humans through history.

[@jeffwu78]

Helen Lewis is one of the most intelligent and honest journalists out there. She's willing to engage with ideas that she doesn't fully agree with, find points of commonality, as well as tease out the nuance. I appreciate how she, as an agnostic/atheist, is still able to clearly see the need for community and something deeper than the default materialism of the world. This is something I can relate with, as a person who was deep into Christianity well into adulthood and lost my faith 15 years ago, and had to rebuild a more rational framework to govern my life---one that is still heavily influenced by the values of the faith I had left.

[@tren380]

She feigns intelligence. When pressed, she falls apart.

[@Joeonline26]

Intelligent and honest? That is just utter nonsense.

[@justchillin5200]

She cheated on her husband, go search about it

[@ToGuyFor]

Is she best the left has?

[@hinahinananoha7783]

Great talk. So excited to listen to her more❤

[@evanscholnick4871]

😂😂😂

[@user-qm8sc1jr9u]

she is a joke

[@fabricliver]

"READ MORE"

[@jeff-onedayatatime.2870]

Helen: About the Internet feeling shame...think Moral Man, Immoral Society. But the Internet is amoral.

[@Jes196]

She’s incredibly homely.

[@starkiller23610]

Certain parts of the bible and followers of Jesus may seem like communism in isolation. Coincidently I was reading acts 2:42 yesterday at chruch group, where the disciples explicitly talk about a commune of peoppe selling their belongigns, sharing the peoceeds and feeding and helping people as they needed it. That very clearly sounds like certain parts of comunism, but there was a lot more to christ and his teachings than this. Of course, a huge disagreement with communism is thay Jesus encouraged the idea of the chruch and religious leaders holding wealth, which communism would have quite a lot to say against.

[@sirennoir258]

Her husband's girlfriend loves her work

[@evanscholnick4871]

Shrew …

[@1898JoeBoyle]

So woke

[@JP-hb4mv]

she is so out of touch

[@gobinathannair6013]

When did this stick insect limb flailing start?

[@mbb2404]

Her lack of faith has made her tired looking

[@GregorPQ]

I was wrong, she didn't learn anything.

[@daniellaw4200]

Very inconsistent. She is literally unable to tale herself away from the easy narratives

[@thejcshowarchive9984]

The exact same ideologically possessed Helen we saw in the Jordan Peterson interview.

[@Pepesongo]

Why in the world she's being interviewed, considering how dishonest she is, is beyond me.

[@michaelparsons3007]

Justin, I love your work and appreciate it very much but this woman has nothin enchanting or interesting to say. She has very run of the mill opinions.

[@BronnBlackwater]

Helens teeth are so yellow

[@jonathanslayer8198]

Jordan peterson destroyed you

[@slothrop4751]

bro what's wrong with her teeth?

[@rushelm8101]

Helen Lewis is disgraceful.

[@StanWeiner]

She needs to stop using drugs. 😂

[@jorgejungl]

Well at least she's bleached her hair since that butchering with Peterson

[@deborahevans4811]

Misogynists apparently follow Lewis around on the internet. How small their lives must be. And other things.

[@Joeonline26]

Thanks for your useless input, Karen...

[@CursedWheelieBin]

Oh here we go. Any man who disagrees with her must be a misogynist, right? 🙄 You’re a victim when it suits you. You’re empowered when it suits you. Nobody’s buying it 😂

[@glassytea3315]

Sorry. She’s a snob. Not sorry.

[@callums6570]

Jesus was basically a communist lol. Thats a kind of enchantment I suppose . . .

[@PaulVanderKlay]

You heard that a lot in the 1970s.

[@williamoarlock8634]

@@PaulVanderKlay Christians clearly prove Jesus was no 'saviour' either.

[@thomasarnoldcoe6527]

Communism is a satanic counterfeit to the Kingdom of God. In communism, the government takes everything away and never gives it back. God gives the most precious thing He can give, and gives and gives again.

[@mihairazvan5540]

​@@williamoarlock8634how so?