Here's Why You Suck At Forza Horizon 5 (Pay2Win Physics)

This makes the competitive aspect of this game basically pointless, especially in singleplayer. Some of the key game functions like timers and physics need lots of work.
Thanks to those who helped with the investigation:
AngelJA (Telemetry tool: github.com/AngelJA/forza-daq)
Hexor6T (@emoquit)
Danx98 (@dandavidson3942)
AkumaNoZero (‪@akumanozero2385‬ )
AdamHemi (‪@AdamHemi‬ )
0:00 Intro
0:15 Timer difference
1:39 How to check if you have timer advantage
2:28 PGG/T10 rant
2:57 30 FPS VS 60 FPS: Laptimes
3:36 30 FPS VS 60 FPS: Suspension
5:15 Conclusion
"Correction:"
04:28 56 Clean runs on 30fps
#FH5 #ForzaHorizon5

[@seP4]

Forgot to mention: The game speed is not slowed down alongside the timer. We looked at other runs from the “world record holder” mentioned in this video and some of them are actually faster than humanly possible. It is possible that some of the game physics are running faster than intended, giving him an even bigger advantage, but we are not 100% sure about this one and there are no reliable ways to test it. This is another thing for to investigate Correction At <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="268">4:28</a>: That's 56 clean runs for 30fps

[@harryballz4260]

You've put more time and effort into figuring this out than playground games has ever done with anything in the game. Well done. Actually explains alot.

[@angel.avila.]

Love that you're using my tool for real forza science. Lmk if there's anything else you might find helpful. For example, maybe the recorded log files can be converted to something like csv files so you can load them in a spreadsheet to better analyze the plots

[@seP4]

@naekstasy that would definitely help but after this discovery doing further tests on this game is pointless

[@angel.avila.]

@@seP4 yeah Sadge

[@Kash-420]

Did anyone test if more than 60 fps can cause a bigger difference?

[@walterwhite7640]

"he has a better gamong chair" is now officially working in fh5.

[@garymurphy3870]

Has been for a while my g

[@AceShadowbloodcivic]

Gamong

[@tyreksimmons4167]

the fps boost from the rgb led's is real

[@stickybuds05]

@@tyreksimmons4167 you ain't kidding. Gaming chair doesn't even hold up anymore. Get 6 tenths just from my RGB 5G overclocked headset

[@jibzzztm]

Xd

[@iDannny]

"The players, with less tools, doing developer's jobs for free." That hit hard

[@teertaa]

Not only that, the developers regard you as knowing nothing peasants

[@kai_444]

@@teertaa the devs can't even drive properly when demo-ing the game lmao

[@bennyb.1742]

*Bethesda has entered chat*

[@jibzzztm]

Deep

[@ZoMTDU]

**Test Drive Unlimited community has entered the chat**

[@Heldermaior]

Interesting to have the physics refresh rate tied to your FPS. Major sim racing titles figured out ages ago that it was a bad idea to do so. Now they have physics updates detween 300 and 900 Hz for increased fidelity.

[@OCinneide]

Well F122 ESports found out that FPS is tied to physics.

[@Heldermaior]

@@OCinneide well, I stand by what I said XD Joking aside after looking a bit deeper into it... No wonder they have so many issues with cheating and exploits. Damn that game needs an overhaul.

[@OCinneide]

@@Heldermaior yeah, I would have thought this year would have been the one for an overhaul with the new cars (it’s 2022 cars) and all the popularity from an exciting season and drive to survive. But it looks more like they rushed it through and we’ll see what they do next year.

[@Heldermaior]

@@OCinneide overhauling costs money. Better to slap a new coat of paint and call it a day

[@3n3ly7m9]

Roblox does the same thing

[@ivanjermakov]

Undeterministic physics in competitive games is a crime.

[@lebronjames-lb8j]

its not competitive its an arcade game

[@ivanjermakov]

@@lebronjames-lb8j any game with leaderboards and positions is competitive. I'm not saying it's a racing sim.

[@TeenPerspektiva]

And its not a true arcade. Its "arcade like"​ with some sim features and some arcade features. Its pretty much simcade. The actual driving physics are seriously realistic. And there are many simulated subsystems. But you can have an overly arcade experience with the game if you are letting it keep assists on And the open world damage model is completely arcade like, with plastic fences etc. But the actual driving is not an arcade. Nfs is an arcade. Crazy taxi, etc. @@lebronjames-lb8j

[@MrSolidsnake293]

​@@lebronjames-lb8jwow your foolishly blind to reality. Do you think the government is there for your safety too...?

[@nfsfanAndrew]

​@@lebronjames-lb8jmultiplayer and leader boards. Sounds competitive to me.

[@DarkPatro56]

Rivals mode's biggest sin is the inability to sort times by cars driven. That way you could pick whatever you want and tally your time with others who used the same car. Otherwise it's 1-2 META cars per track or GTFO. Apart from well known issues plaguing this mode, looks like there's even more, quite significant to anyone that cares or cared at this point...

[@frontcapone]

That is something I would love to see. Would add a whole new reason to play rivals.

[@christophercervantes5346]

Man, imagine fighting to be the actual ghost of Akina, or the Gran Caldera in that case.

[@sehajkaler9285]

One of the coolest things I noticed about Project cars 2 was they sorted lap times by model. Forza has had Rivals for over 10 years, and it is one of the biggest selling features of the games (particularly in Motorsport), and realized it’s crazy that the Forza team hasn’t seemed to even try to implement this

[@Mgoblagulkablong]

would be pointless anyways, too many cheaters on leaderboard

[@GamerErman2001]

@@Mgoblagulkablong Leaderboards are still useful you just have to scroll down until you see more realistic times.

[@kasvos9292]

Lego island physics.

[@CrackedMB]

OG I remember getting so frustrated by the framerate based minigames and thinking i sucked Not to say i didnt but…

[@xPr0DiiGyxLORDsh]

I actually really appreciate your effort in researching this. It’s weird because I had a gut feeling some things were off, like no matter how good I was or how perfect my timing when breaking on upcoming corners was the ghosts always were ahead of me. Seeing this kind of relaxes me and hopes this will eventually be fixed or acknowledged. I like how some one mentioned the ability to filter would be helpful.

[@itoaster]

At one point I know Forza (Motorsport, at least) ran a fixed 180hz physics refresh rate, and also most major racing sim titles run fixed physics refresh rates as well. I suspect this is caused here because at some point, Forza switched to tying the physics refresh to your framerate - or may do this in specifically Horizon titles. It still doesn’t explain the game timer issues, but it would at least explain the physics issues between 30 and 60 fps locks.

[@chillaxTF]

Why would they make that change? Seems like a massive downgrade

[@DigitalJedi]

@ryan It's easier to run at an acceptable rate vs an independent physics engine. In the 108hz physics example, super slow hardware that can't keep a consistent 180hz tick rate will cause the game to speed up and slow down. But, in an fps based physics system, the slowdowns are compensated for by having more time between physics tick, by having a frame drop.

[@Hellothere-by4ye]

You know that's some GTA V level programming there. That game has exactly same problem in online mode. Framerate gives more speed, suspension works weirdly and it also gives you speed boost which we call kerb boosting. Basically exploiting physics to gain more speed by clipping methods like changing rims. Anyone interested can check broughy's fact check videos.

[@GraveUypo]

180hz must have been forza motorsport 1. i remember they proudly announced 360hz for fm3 and then i think 960hz for fm5.

[@VariantAEC]

@@GraveUypo Yeah but I'm fairly certain that was always a huge lie from DG.

[@TDB-rm4qt]

"you might have tried dozens of tuning setups with little to no improvements" (shows ugrundy's tunes) this is kinda genius way to explain why there's no impovements lol

[@jibzzztm]

True

[@notodd2828]

Im glad to see this about the physics and the timing. I honestly felt I was going insane and the only one thinking the physics were off. I’d enter a turn with all the same variables and it was almost always different everytime. Like my car will grip the earth like a champ, slide a little, or act like it was on ice. Frustrating to say the least.

[@goose7617]

Good god been looking for a similar word to my own. One race you’ll feel totally confident around corners and next you might slide through one at a lower speed than the run just before

[@kontoname]

If you are trying to play any high demanding game on a console competitively and not for fun that IS the definition of insane. Expecting consistency at 30fps is just madness. On console your way to go is adjust the difficulty, turn on the driving aids under difficulty and enjoy in a leaned back position on the couch instead of try harding with a controller and 30fps. Reading stuff like this is indeed frustrating to say the least.

[@T0L0M0]

​@@kontoname Imagine defending shitty coding, telling people how to play and what to expect and turning the whole conversation into console vs pc masterrace in one comment. Piss off mate!

[@HelmutKohlrabi]

Reminds me of these good old DOS games that run their timers by the CPU fequency and therefore spazzed out on faster systems

[@Mernom]

Leading to the Turbo button which actually slowed down your system to run them in a sane speed XD

[@dudejo]

I remember how the OG Doom engine kept the same gameplay speed on any CPU while the later Quake 1 engine would spaz out on faster systems unless you either pulled some console wizardry or pushed your monitor to higher resolutions

[@paulphoenix007]

Lol,good.

[@Mateumt]

@@dudejo IIRC DOS Doom was limited to 35fps

[@TheJayson8899]

Tons of games have this issue. Anything on Unreal Engine 1 for example.

[@R3AL-AIM]

People won't believe this is happening in CoD, but you literally just proved it's going on in Forza. Lol

[@bungholio1586]

Cod bots are too zombified to think critically

[@voron1911]

Yeah, in CoD the more framerate you have the better your hit detection is. I've actually proven it to myself since CoD ghost since I have a potato PC then.

[@narrativeless404]

@@voron1911 Isn't that just because the precision sucks, and the network scripts overall work slower, so the server recieve information from yor enemy much faster than it does from you GTA ONLINE has muuuuuch worse network problems, when you have a potato PC

[@Zezinho75]

Just unable cross platform….?

[@voron1911]

@@narrativeless404 I think framerate do matters. I tested this by playing both locked to 60 fps and 144 fps. I'm pretty sure that on 144 fps, I get more consistent kill with certain amount of hitmarker. If I played on 60 fps that same amount would not always kill the enemies. Sure my test is not a scientific one. It could also be a placebo effect of playing on higher framerate.

[@kingcars]

I know you mention that it doesn't affect online races, but I can't even count the number of times I've clearly beaten someone to the finish line, only for the game to register them as finishing ahead of me. It was a big issue in FH4 as well. I have a sneaking suspicion that these issues are related.

[@robertkennedy9369]

It happened to me as well.

[@Shinu.oka.]

Thats typically called "xboxing". It happens because xbox players start ever so slightly later than pc players by maybe 0.050-0.100 of a second. To counter this the game subtracts that time from the finish time at the end to balance out the minor time loss at the start. This is likely fps based as its not unknown for this to occur for some pc players too but it is far less frequent.

[@kingcars]

@@Shinu.oka. I might be an oddball then. I play on a pretty high end PC that runs the game at 90+ fps and it happens to me. It was really bad on FH4 though.

[@OutOfRangeDE]

Its more about netcode i guess. They cant update the opponents car instantly so you see a delayed image of what the server is seeing.

[@ShawFujikawa]

@@0xGRIDRUNREven the best netcode is going to have some desync like that, data transfer isn’t instant.

[@AYW07]

In "Beetle Adventure Racing" Physics also change with different frame rates. PAL N64 runs in 50 fps where american version N64 runs in 60 fps. The console calculates the cars position every frame. Means that if the car experiences any changes in (the track) directions, it calculates whether it gets closer to the ground or further away. Resulting in a change of the cars direction, or not. For example if your going up a ramp, your car wants go into the ground. The cars velocity and direction is always the result of the calculation from the last frame and the players input ofc. So going up a ramp means that the cars calculated direction and the direction of the street do not match, resulting in compression of the springs and a change in direction and velocitiy for the next frame. Long story short. In 60 fps it does that progress more smoothly than in the 50 fps version, resulting in the cars physics and behaviour beeing more volatile. It is more likely that strange things happen with lower fps. Maybe thats whats going on here

[@XXXXL25]

I have something to add about the suspension clipping in the loop. Two of my friends playing at uncapped FPS always wondered how I get less clipping when playing in the Hot Wheels world. I play at capped 72 fps. When my friends also tried capping their fps to 72 they stated getting significantly less clipping than before. So it seems like at high enough fps you start getting disadvantages again.

[@KvltKommando]

well fuck this series then, I only care about playing at 120fps or higher, 72 fps looks so bad on an 144hz monitor. If I want to play a low FPS game I'll choose one that at least maintains a stable physics like Ridge Racer R4 on playstation emulator

[@adjuru6585]

I remember something similar happened to me in The Crew 1: Back then I had pretty old and slow hardware which limited my fps. This lead to the problem that I couldn't drive with/against my friends in multiplayer because there was some sort of correlation betweem FPS and the speed/distance a car drove. I could drive top speed with my LaFerrari and my friends with high fps could just drive past me with some default offroad car lol...

[@shtupidmate]

Dude until I upgraded my computer I was stuck at the ironclad dash for so fucking long.. Speedran the rest of the game with no fails cause I was grinding parts in freeroam for months 😂

[@EDXVA]

I used to play The Crew 1 A LOT with my friend who had a cheap laptop, he had idk like 30fps while I ran the game at steady 60fps. I was legit twice as fast as him even on slower car. it was hilarious.

[@adjuru6585]

@@EDXVA its funny to read that other players experienced the same stuff after YEARS lmao. Have to say, that this basically destroyed the game experience for me... Back then I really liked the game, it was the closest thing to TDU2 for me since Forza Horizon wasn't a possibility for PC gamers yet

[@VTXHobbies]

Not a competitive game but Brick Rigs has the same issue in multiplayer, when you have a low fps your vehicle moves at a third of the speed of everyone else

[@Apostle2001]

DUDE I had the exact same issue, when I used to drive on a potato laptop and I used to struggle so much in multiplayer

[@SentinelxPrime]

Have you ever noticed that sometimes when you downgrade the tire compound, the lateral g stat and acceleration stats improve? I'd love to have an explanation for this besides "don't trust the in game stats"

[@WSX-]

quality game tbh. sometimes worse tires are better than full blown slicks on some cars in this game

[@JohnUnsub]

Or when putting rally tires on a mostly stock shitbox makes it jump up 2 performance classes and its still just as slow

[@mojepodworko7653]

yeee, and sometimes drift tires are shittier than normal or race or sport, for driftring i mean, always do your tunes, test car multiple times. But do we all have 100 hours to test ours car tunes?

[@FlyWire2]

That's intentional, Slicks need a constant high temperature to grip, meaning they are only gripper in supercars, while less powerful things don't heat them and make them slide around

[@SentinelxPrime]

@@FlyWire2 thats an interesting theory. For me it usually happens with rally tires. However from my testing ive found that if the PI goes down even if the lateral g stat goes up, its a lesser performing tire.

[@alexandrospanag]

awesome research you clearly did a lot of editing and researching. Glad there are good youtubers out there

[@Zumito]

I think this is because the delta time is a float of 32 bits and when it multiplies to get the values of the timer and physics it just loses a little bit of precision every time

[@edgesplitmusic]

Having worked with lots of physics simulation programming I think i could provide some insight into possible causes. Things like suspension, tire friction modelling, aerodynamics simulation are bound to be error prone when handled incorrectly. Time interval between the frames of simulation can change the outcome. In the case of the suspension - for example slower simulation rate may cause springs to get more compressed under changes of load on the car (like seen in the video with the cliiping on the loop) because there is more time between the cause (compression of the spring) and effect (spring force and damping acting on the car). Same can happen with tire friction but the time precision errors are usually more pronounced because the response in non-linear. You can search for tire friction curves if you want to see how they look. This can cause a tire to spin further before the forces are applied, therefore making it possible to spin faster than it should and getting less friction as a result. If the simulation results are dependent on the simulation framerate, an unstable simulation framerate will make them more random/non deterministic. Possible solutions to these problems are: running the simulation at a (edit: stable) rate independent of the graphics fps (commonly used, not idea why it's not used in fh5) and numerical integration or running critical parts of the simulation multiple times per frame internally to minimize the errors. It would be interesting to see you test the friction with different fps. Maybe some powerful cars with a lot with wheelspin? No idea about the possible cause of the timer thing, but someone definitely did a shitty job with that.

[@budthecyborg4575]

Run the benchmark and you'll see the simulation FPS is not tied to game FPS.

[@edgesplitmusic]

@@budthecyborg4575 I checked it and you are correct, my mistake.

[@budthecyborg4575]

@@edgesplitmusic Which doesn't specifically negate the point of the video, if 30fps is giving different results than 60fps then clearly there are still not enough physics samples.

[@Centrioless]

​@@budthecyborg4575 maybe using rewind is the problem.

[@nathanlamaire]

They did have framerate tied to the physics, but in specific sets of framerates. They did try to solve the issue but they didn't realise that computer can't do math.

[@IIFILIPII]

I really like how this channel evolved 😊 from memes to technical analysis. I literally use only use your car settings for online racing. Btw nice work as always 😊

[@kmemz]

My conclusion from the suspension graphs; the physics updates are fully tied to the framerate. Reducing the framerate reduces the amount of updates the suspension model recieves. The lack of updates means that the suspension will behave less consistently due to important details of the track not being reflected in it. At the same time, while higher framerates seem to help with consistency, I'm sure there is a point in the hundreds of frames per second, where the suspension will update so quickly that it may begin to behave erratically. And because the update rate improves consistency, the erratic behavior may also be consistent.

[@HiptonismHD]

Lots of games have mechanics that are based on your FPS. Personally I think the best part of this game is how your stats and movement are all local, meaning you can speed-hack, fly-hack, get cars and money, and also even save-swap with accounts all local to your computer, kind of like Grand Theft Auto 5. (I think save-swapping was patched not too long ago, but it was a thing.)

[@k7y]

FH5 was the last game I expected where dropping graphic settings gave you an edge. well I guess it's time to drop them ultra/extreme settings and make the frame counter go brr

[@JoelHernandez-tz3vk]

I always default to until I hit a hard CPU bottleneck.

[@Sphynx93rkn]

@@JoelHernandez-tz3vk I'm running on ultra because the game otherwise goes CPU bound and causes stutters. Don't know why it's happening but it drives me crazy.

[@JoelHernandez-tz3vk]

@@Sphynx93rkn wihout knowing more context, sounds like a RAM issue rather than CPU issue.

[@VariantAEC]

Yeah I've dropped extreme shadows, environmental geometry, shaders (huge performance savings) and cut out real time RT (my GTX 1070 can't push for a locked 60FPS with it anyway). I think I also cut reflection quality down a lot, drawing those dynamic cube maps is brutal on the GPU.

[@bigbuckoramma]

See: Quake 3 Arena Rocket Jumping and FPS. This is what happens when in engine timing, that also controls things like physics polling rates, and the in game clock, are intrinsically locked to frame rates. You end up bending the rules of how the math is done by cheating the frame rate. This has been an issue on Q3A for physics, as previously mentioned, and also for leaderboards on Sega Rally 2, where higher uncapped frame rate would also cheat the clock to run slower, and make the "wall tap" braking technique for hairpins much easier, as it also cheated the physics engine, and made the collision and accompanying speed drop less severe, the higher the FPS was. Which eventually led to all PC Sega Rally 2 times being rejected.

[@SupersusSS606]

That made quite a bit of sense as to why things like my suspension bottoming out and losing control of a vehicle whilst drag racing on the highway happens WAYY more often to me on my Xbox one than all my friends on next gen

[@epultimast]

How do you enable this specified lap time interface? I only get the dumbed down version. Nothing with [ms] or the sort...

[@usonumabeach300]

I've thought something like this was happening, especially with the random nature regarding physics. I've also noticed that when racing against AI in a single player race, the AIs performance is often drastically impacted by my settings, especially if my PC is a bit laggy and the AI are close to me

[@OutOfRangeDE]

I always felt the local hosted AI was way stronger than the online one. Unbeatable online is quite easy to master, but with local drivatars (atleast on my Pc) some classes/car configurations are insane/not possible to win.

[@bennyb.1742]

@@OutOfRangeDE Nah, that particular case comes down to how "Unbeatable" works. Basically they cheat and are exempt from the physics engine, but how fast they're going is scaled to the player much more so than other settings. So during The Trial for example, if you get in a lobby with mostly mediocre players and you're fast, the AI will be slower than your own in SP. That's why a reliable Trial tactic is to try and holeshot, then sand bag. Maybe one AI will just teleport way ahead, but the others will slow down a lot and make it easier for your shitty team mates to pass them.

[@mojepodworko7653]

@@OutOfRangeDE yeees, i my car drives 450km/h. 200 had in 5 sec, so why this fuckin gay is 500 meters ahead of me if my car is insanely bitch fast shit, what that guy drive 500 km/h? IDK maybe cuz my startpos was 8/12, what if i was 12/12? no chance i would be 3 if i drive perfectly. i dont play multiplayer only single

[@ShawFujikawa]

@@OutOfRangeDEBecause local drivatars will scale to your PI. Drivatars in the Trial only use stock configurations so of course they’re easier to beat.

[@OutOfRangeDE]

@@ShawFujikawa Online they also have my PI when everyone is driving the same car in the weekly challenge.

[@teertaa]

Pay2win physics has been a problem not only in forza but in entire gaming history. Like for example in cod4 league, everyone is hitting 200+ fps and the rule no 300+ fps is enforced on some matches In gta fivem racing communities, moderators and admin has server grade gaming pc running 400+ fps to assert their ego on us and going even a second faster on 40 seconds straight with the same car/build

[@seP4]

thought we would we way past this in modern games. trackmania had this figured out decades ago

[@sedixmrboss5625]

Server grade means shit for gaming. Maybe you simply mean "the fastest there is"

[@teertaa]

I just realized nadeo were the only racing dev concerned about this framerate issues

[@comet.x]

@@teertaa and yet they broke ice. thank you nando. very cool.

[@dienand_gaming]

I don't want to pretend like I'm an expert on the topic, but I feel like these types of issues are easily ignored when developing mainly for the console market because framerates are capped... trackmania has largely been developed for PC only so they took this into account.

[@timothygooding9544]

something about game physics is that normally you move in the direction of your velocity and THEN the game looks at if you've collided with stuff and adjusts accordingly. If your on 30fps instead of 60, the game has to move you twice as far between timesteps, meaning the suspension system wont be able to keep up and apply force between those frames. making the suspension more unstable at lower framerates. Maybe the team tried to counter this, but as someone starting out in gamedev, thats my guess for the loop problem, and it needs some very smart work-arounds to fix, possibly engine-level changes

[@_fudgepop01]

If I had to guess, it seems like it’s in-part a problem with interpolation, and the frequency of physics updates. It seems from the video like collision + physics updates are only applied when a frame is rendered. If you had a mod to prevent the rendering of the game without triggering some sort of lag compensation system (if one exists), I have a feeling the cars may start “driving” through walls. Video games these days are meant to work at varying framerates in a roughly consistent manner. However, it can be difficult to handle collision updates in these non-deterministic situations - almost as if the collision detection somehow relies on the frame that was previously rendered to determine if a collision happened rather than calculating the physical interpolation based on a frame or two ahead. As such, it makes sense in the loop example that the car clips into the floor more at lower frame rates because the game has to “catch up” more slightly more to visually reflect the velocity applied from the previously-rendered frame. As easy as it can be to put our conspiracy hats on, as a developer of other games and systems I believe this “pay2win” aspect that appears here is very much not an intentional design element, but rather just an unfortunate side-effect of the way physics updates are handled. I think that one of the few ways to level the playing field more in ‘competitive’ environment would be to limit physics to a time-based system. Ex - when the in-game timer passes certain thresholds, one or more physics updates are applied, but not so much that it causes the game to lag on older hardware. This would, however, cause a VERY SMALL visual desync in the moment to moment gameplay that can cause things to feel _extremely_ different on newer hardware. It’s a biiig balancing act. If ya wanna truly fix things, fix the real-world economy lol

[@Revelatus]

Tested your track out. My specs are 1080Ti, 3900XT. With my settings I get an average of 110 FPS if I had to guess (like 130 in bumper cam because the game doesnt need to render my car). Game timer was 506.6ms faster than the event lab timer. I was using the S209 with an A class road tune with the body kit. That's pretty dumb lol. Now I feel like a cheater now :( I did some more testing for science, trying different camera views (bumper cam gives a slight FPS improvement). My fastest lap in this car was a <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="99">1:39</a>.828 with a 502.6ms difference. Seems like the slower you go, the bigger the gap grows which makes sense.

[@The_Knowledgeseekers]

It's why it should be presented in % instead of second gained or lost, because in % we know how many seconds are gained per 100 seconds. Meanwhile here it's just you lose or gain some time.

[@VariantAEC]

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed how much an impact chase and driver/dash camera views impact performance in FH games on PC

[@Hugueta1503]

Your study of this situation in the game is very important!

[@granolafunk6192]

I kinda wondered why I always did so well in the game. Running at 144fps would give an advantage over the NPCs as well.

[@Fluffy_Owl352]

What about those <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="0">0:00</a>:000 record laps ? Or 10km jumps/5000km/h speed traps?

[@MagnoLima0]

do a drag race with identical cars and one player on xbox one another on xbox series and another on pc with 120 fps+, you will see how crazy this game is.

[@seP4]

thats what we did at 2:18. in singleplayer though it is different

[@aurastrike]

Yeah, FPS directly affects launch

[@JoshuaJayMyers]

Incase you weren't mad enough already at the game, here's some more crap to work you up. You do such incredible work man, respect

[@spartanx169x]

I would bet $1,000 this type of stuff is not limited to Forza 5. This is common among many games. Hence why consoles should not be forced to play against PCs.

[@basshead.]

@@spartanx169x Bro, console peasants need us. Otherwise, FH4 would be a ghost town.

[@SageBladeG]

@@spartanx169x sounds like a cope

[@br4nd0nx_x]

​@@SageBladeG to be fair most of you guys are cheaters anyway 😂

[@SageBladeG]

@@br4nd0nx_x ngl cheaters are gay. That’s why i play at 120 fps

[@yourfinestlocalidiot]

I read a while back about this issue in GTA Online, frames and physics were tied closely, somewhat rigging races to your hardware. Surprisingly, this was fixed with Expanded and Enhanced.

[@kyle6266]

Have you test this with water? Maybe it placebo and people consistently take bad lines to cross water but I seem to gain ground more often then not when I cross.

[@wilson33r]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="269">4:29</a> 44 + 66 = 100!

[@rockpie.squashfs]

💀

[@bryceh4439]

Does this advantage extend to 120, 144, and even 300 frames per second or is the internal clock rate(unsure of exact terminology) limited to 60 per second?

[@redcatxb125]

Id like to see a pc capable of running this game at 300fps.

[@potatoes5829]

@@redcatxb125 fh5 isn't a particularily hard game to run at the lower settings, 300fps is certainly possible on not-obscenely-expensive hardware

[@davidzadro2939]

In Redout 2 there’s a similar issue, the ships tend to bottom out or not activate boosts at top speeds where they shouldn’t. I also encountered an issue where I approached a jump at a steep angle and clipped straight theough because of a similar frame rate limitation.

[@Buzterer]

I've seen something of the same nature happen to some graphical adventure puzzles. The game update the timer every some amount of prosessor cycles instead of real time, while online timers depend on the servers' cycles.

[@redbullsauberpetronas]

The F1 game had a problem this year where certain frame rates would allow you to go over curbs like they were nothing

[@r10101]

That loop scenario is why i tend to run Rally Suspension on almost every car, sure i'm not getting most handling possible but avoiding bottoming out is perferable imo

[@Jlewismedia]

It is the physics tick speed which has numerous different names. Almost every modern game with any sort of collision has separate tick speeds, it's usually locked to a lower number like 40-60fps which has very little deviation in consistency and they use something called DeltaTime which is an approximation of the time between two frames to do t mathematics which is everything from the timer to the rate of force dispersion in suspension. However the larger the difference tick consistency the more deviation. Im not sure exactly why but I suspect Forza's default tick rate (for menu logic and what not) is somewhat tied into the physics system so unstable normal tickrate has an impact on the physics tickrate. I beleive it might have something to do with performance in that regard or it could be a legacy issue with their engine being built for 30fps on older consoles. That's why many games still have a fps cap on consoles so that the gameplay is consistent especially in physics based games. The non determinism you spoke about is true, it can be caused by another computer science term called "floating point errors" where a number is too large or small for the computers 32bit floats to encapsule so numbers get trimmed. If the framerate is higher or lower it can change what values are in certain equations and sometimes they can get chopped off, only causes minor mis-calculations in equations but when the equations go from like millimetres surface are to newton meters of force created by downforce you could be a whole int value out, have that happen a bunch of times and you get some silly physics or silly timers. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_timing en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating-point_error_mitigation en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrunning

[@Kysen10]

new forza game is locked to 60fps online most likely due to this problem lol

[@drift_works]

amazing job, good work m8!

[@craigkingdon4424]

The physics difference is because the physics engine works on a 2x multiple of your framerate, so I believe what you are seeing is half the data points hence the smoother graph at 30fps.

[@JoelHernandez-tz3vk]

This needs to die. Fast. I don't care on what part of the sliding scale of racing realism your game lands on either. I loathe non-deterministic physics.

[@craigkingdon4424]

@@JoelHernandez-tz3vk well it was originally done so that the physics where a high fidelity on console and could remain highly reactive even at lower framerates. It's a good system for a closed ecosystem like a console, but obviously has issues when the ecosystem is opened up. Hopefully the new physics engine addresses this in the next Motorsport.

[@narrativeless404]

@@JoelHernandez-tz3vk Deterministic physics are boring Unless you are a Trackmania speedrunner

[@JoelHernandez-tz3vk]

@@narrativeless404 Tell that to Sonic Robo Blast 2 Kart.

[@narrativeless404]

@@JoelHernandez-tz3vk That's a specific type of racing games as well

[@SilverWolfPL]

Nice. Looks like physics are tied to frametimes in some way. Seems that in the loop test suspension is reacting slower in 30 than 60 fps, which in some situation will cause clipping. Possibly frame frequency was not enough for game to perform bounce back of the suspension, causing it to clip eventually. I do wonder if this glitched times were however done with limited fps or not. If not maybe physics engine couldn't keep up and caused game to go out of sync between physics and frames?

[@cqrzsn]

What car u used for ur thumbnail?

[@destrudot]

i knew it wasnt because im a rammer who spams meta!

[@dekoldrick]

I would say the physics vary based on the cpu load but that's is something that hasn't been a problem for years where if you manage to boot up some really antique games on modern hardware, the physics would be overclocked because it was designed around a much slower processor.

[@FrankDaTank945]

Perfect examples. Thanks for the informative video!

[@pyrophobia133]

you have to love games where physics and whatnot are still tied framerates

[@mcn7958]

I have noticed the frame affects something very early. when playing 10 skill points blueprint, such as 139 710 733, the lower frame makes you run faster. Using X seseto fe, 41 fps → about 25.4s，83 fps → about26.3s. And sometimes, the speed just ignores obstacles. You have the skill points but just like going through the obstacles, so it will be under 23s. But when you go faster, you will get less exp. using 165fps, about 3733 3961 4000 exp per round, 30 fps would be 32xx exp. It seems like because one frame cannot handle more than 2 times collisions. For example, if the speed is enough to hit 61 obstacles in 60s, but you only have 60fps, there will be at least one frame that has 2 or more than 2 collisions. It may only cause one slowdown. So lower fps let you ignore more slowdown by collisions. And I think I played afk more than all players in fh5, my id : nmcleo, I even go afk for online racing. And now I am on the top 25 of the exp board. I spent a lot of time on tuning for afk, so I have tried what is the best fps for afk. Higher fps have advantages in most maps. But the game is more likely to crash with the unlocked frame, so I am using 83fps. With NV gpu + over 5ghz cpu, using nvidia profile inspector, you can run fh5 over 200 fps. Just like how some people play pubg.

[@jbjoseph01]

I’ve seen you show up afk in Playground Games and it’s slightly annoying. The game already makes the teams mismatched or have an uneven amount of players and then to have a player show up and not even do anything makes it real fun.

[@mcn7958]

@@jbjoseph01 I am sorry about that. For accolades and sometimes for seasonal, I need to go playground. As you said, the game already makes the teams uneven. I totally do not enjoy playing this game at all. Since I got all playground accolades, except seasonal, I have never been into playground games. Now I am only afk at s2 road. Cuz this makes 4 million online exp and about 120 levels per 24 hours, which is the fastest afk way to get online exp that I found.

[@gameboy3800]

i always felt like my high fps gave an advantage more than just better reaction time. thanks for the intel!

[@GeorgeCowsert]

Friendly reminder that this game got the Steam Award for "best art direction" when Psychonauts 2 was an option.

[@roideus]

Can this also be related with HPET or other subtimers and not just framerate?

[@IrnFox]

Ok, I got some questions. So, I play on 4k, and can get 90FPS if my FPS is unlocked. If I have locked my FPS to 60, does that mean I'm giving up that unfair advantage? If I were to play 1080p or even 720p & unlocked FPS, would that make me impossibly fast? How does the loop thing actually work? I have noticed before that every now & then my certain cars does clip on the loop. (With 60fps lock)

[@jinjerjunkie]

I am wondering the same thing, like can you put your setting on potato to max your frame rate and blow everyone away lol.

[@agneygalande3109]

I can confirm this… the physics does really change with hardware…some things do behave a lot differently When I play on my pc, 12th Gen i3 and 3060ti, I am always racing as perfect as I want….but when I switch to my laptop which is like 4+ years old (7th Gen i5 and GTX 1050 4GB), so it runs on 1080p 30fps, it has a significant impact on my driving…and it becomes irritating as my driving becomes bad and turning and braking become mess… Whereas on pc I can easily play 60/90/120 fps (I play with 1080p60 EXTREME) and its just perfect…no shenanigans…..and there’s slightly more things you can get away with And no I’m not a bad driver…its like above above average….

[@VariantAEC]

I can still get near a locked 60 on my laptop's GPU at 1080p with many settings set above medium and high. 7th gen i7/GTX 1070(8GB)/16GB

[@Caffeinated-DaVinci]

60 fps causes less loop clipping because the physics engine has double the amount of frames to calculate physics iterations which can only happen based on the amount of frames rendered in the simulation. Slow the game engine down with uncapped framerate and you'll notice almost zero loop clipping at all because the game has all the time it needs to calculate the suspension travel. This is true in a significant amount of games, but I've never personally witnessed it in a racing game, especially one with a competitive scene. Another example of this is can be seen in BeamNG Drive, where the physics calculations on the crashes get significantly more 'approximate' the faster gamespeed and lower the FPS. Slow the gamespeed down significantly, which then increases the FPS simultaneously, and you'll have far more accurate crash physics calculations per frame.

[@ThePSPJesus]

Gravity is often tied to fps in first-person shooters. I think a simple way to make it make sense is that a faster device doesn't have to skip any calculations to meet a performance target. Hence why with more fps the suspension values have time to go through more position checks, returning more values, smoothing out the transitions.

[@IIAnointedII]

I’ve always told myself that I swear I’m not playing the same game as everyone else. Turns out I was on to something.

[@HerbertHWong]

Thank you for confirming. I am using XSX before I get a 3070 w/AMD 3600. I found my lap time to be faster on the PC. I thought it’s the fps that make a huge difference. My friend commented maybe I am sitting closer to the mon compare to the tv. Now I know it’s the money I paid that the difference.

[@hanssprungfeld8328]

So what i would like to know is what happens when you set the graphics on potato mode on a mid spec pc? Can you gain an advantage by that?

[@roukenthesaiyan]

I have a powerful pc and I dont see an improvement on lap times weather Im locked at 60fps or 240fps. I have been testing this. Maybe it happens on specific tracks ??

[@seP4]

try with an easy car in rivals and you should see a few tenths of improvement

[@Sualpion]

Finally, a reality that 66 + 44 equals to 100

[@Zippy_Zolton]

this should be brought to Playground's attention so it could be fixed... and maybe reset leaderboards

[@snoopyshultz]

🤣🤣 you must be new to forza

[@WSX-]

they won't fix anything for shit bro, they became a bunch of child friendly degens

[@nonAehT]

another idea for testing this: make an autohotkey script (or similar recorded inputs) with set steering and throttle/brake inputs, then let that run on 2 different machines. When overlaying the two videos, it should show one of them with synchronous inputs, but different positions on the course, leading to inputs that are desychronized from the track leading to a wipeout.

[@jamdonut]

This can effect a lot of games and is down to time delta not being accurate enough. In multiplayer the *tick* for physics takes place on the server and so it should be more consistent in terms of timing. In singleplayer the "tick" is on the players CPU. If there are 60 ticks in 1 second and the time between each tick is some number, e.g. 0.000230 but the CPU depending on architecture and also lots of other factors can reduce the accuracy of this number (in other words, the computer isn't fast/good enough to know the smallest amount of times possible in reality, i.e. picoseconds) After the 5 ticks are added up discrepancies can appear, for example: Tick 1. 0ms Tick 2. 0.0020000032ms Tick 2. 0.0010000032ms Tick 2. 0.0030000032ms Tick 2. 0.020000032ms If this were handled by a a computer, it may not have this degree of accuracy so lets round it up. Tick 1. 0ms Tick 2. 0.00200000ms Tick 2. 0.00100000ms Tick 2. 0.00300000ms Tick 2. 0.0200000ms As we can see now, we missed all those 0.000000032ms at the end of the number... And that really matters. All of this adds up over many ticks. A good way to think about Ticks is FPS, its not always the case, but you could say for every frame, there is one tick. 30 FPS means much less numbers, also rounded innacurately, therefore producing worse results 60 FPS means trying to do 60 ticks inside 1 second, rather than 30. Well if we imagine if the CPU can handle 60 ticks, it probably has less of a time delta between each ticks. Because its a better CPU. 30 FPS means trying to do 30 ticks inside 1 second, which means if the CPU is running fast, or the tick is running faster than 1 per frame, the maths get's even more out of whack. For example your game may be 30 fps, but your tick is 60 ticks per second. Now the maths to calculate the time between frames is much more different, we're now factoring the fact 2 ticks occur per frame, and so we once again destroy the original "1 tick per frame" ideal, and end up with some bodge maths. As game devs we use a simple math trick to resolve the issue, which when we're talking on the "seconds" time scale is fine. But anything sub 1 second, we all accept we lose the accuracy. Here is the math: 1 Second is equal to Desired FPS/TicksPerFrame - Time since last frame Example: Desired FPS / Ticks per frame - Time since last trick (or frame) 60 / 60 - 0.0002ms

[@SplaysRacing]

I am so happy you made this video. This happens across games as well

[@gabrielpatic7727]

Ahem ahem*, World

[@Mtw1manreacts]

Now forza fans will use this as a excuse to why they are still slow

[@MotordeDaria3027]

Forza Fans are in reality Pokémon fans because of its toxicity

[@toxichero1]

back in forza horizon 3 when it first came to pc. my raptor was nearly undrivable on console or at 30 fps. but with a uncapped framerate it changed how physics handled the truck and it became extreamly stable to drive at high speeds

[@nil1598]

I struggle because the angle at which the in-game wheel can turn is limited when I'm accelerating my car and when I'm using an Xbox controller to play it

[@valenlmao1]

What about playing in less than 10 FPS?

[@bigmooseplays]

sir, this isn't a mobile port 😂

[@paulanderegg5536]

59.94p vs 60p would be my go-to probably moment when you show that time difference. Time conforming broadcast vs computer framerates can cause things like this to happen.

[@VariantAEC]

My PC screen updates at an interval between 60 and 61 hz.

[@StaticSuper]

Does this happen with drift points too??

[@zarodkiewicz]

I like that you don't make a big thing of some of the glitches and malfunctions. Some other youtubers would name their video "this is unacceptable, outrageous". Good man.

[@metalheadparanoic895]

IIRC, someone posted a couple of months ago on r/F1Game a video on how taking the same corner with a big sausage kerb on 30 FPS had almost no effect, whereas at over 60 FPS he was almost flying. That's a game made by Codemasters ( now part of EA but that's another story ) so this makes it even more strange that 2 completely different racing games have this behaviour

[@RecycleFinn]

F1 2018 also had a bug where tyre cool down rate was tied to FPS aswell. Meaning higher FPS = faster cooldown.

[@bennyb.1742]

Shit like this, and how brutally stupid a lot of the meta builds are is what made me lose interest in FH5 after putting quite a bit of time into it. FH tries to be this weird middle ground in terms of realism and arcade hilariousness and that just breaks it IMO. I've had a lot of fun TBF, and really enjoyed building and tuning cars to a high level and taking on online races. This just gets shit on by stupid meta builds, glitches and half assed development though. It really is a bummer when one has built up their favorite car, spent ages tuning it to be a winner in its class, but then has to resign their mindset to "winning the non-meta class" in online races. Drifting was fun, I got involved in some online communities that did great, realistic driving and it was the most fun I'd had in FH5. It's a real letdown how half assed the competitive component of drifting is. If a dozen cheap mobile games can implement more realistic drift scoring (zones, clipping points and proximity), why cant PG? It's kind of interest specific I know, but really highlights how much of a lazy, child market cash grab FH has become. Mobile games do most of it's elements better. Just this morning I uninstalled FH5 after playing it since launch and change my racing game library to two polar opposites that don't try to split the genre and come out half assed. I'm happily playing Unbound for fun and really enjoying the style and story, and getting into Assetto drifting now that people have figured out controller support while I save for a wheel.

[@Modernisse]

The thing with fps: the physics engine might have in it's calculations the number of frames. Lower frames means bigger difference in position between 2 frames, meaning that clipping will me much more frequent since it would not have enough subsequent frames to correct the clipping.

[@initiald975]

I once heavily clipped a wall in forza and noticed on the replay it looked like it hadn’t bounced off the wall. Although I turned damage off

[@ShadowRush2112]

With the difference in physics between 30 and 60fps it makes me wonder how something like 24, 75, 90 and 120+ will fair for those on lower end hardware and those with high refresh rate monitors.

[@seP4]

hokihoshi tested 30vs60vs120fps. the difference between 60 and 120 is very minimal compared to 30 and 60

[@pistolinha2934]

This situation rememberem me the things with 3d fallout engines and why an internal clock is so important Basically, in 3d fallout the physics engine does the calculation on movement, time and so on based on your frame rate, given the game was made to run @30fps anything bigger than this will cause problems, we see faster movement, objects behaving weirdly and many clippings happening To solve this problem many developers started implementing an internal clock, it limits the ammounts of inputs the game engine recieves so you don't get weird bugs while maintaining a high fps count, see any multiplayer game for instance, the vast majority of servers only register stuff @30fps so to maintain low performance cost and a somewhat smooth physics simulation I believe the same things is happening to FH5, either the engine lack an internal clock that limits the game inputs to a set ammount or the game does feature an internal clock but the same is set to capture >=60 inputs per second, resulting in weird behavior from a lack of inputs

[@phee3D]

You will always encounter these accuracies unless you use deterministic code, I don't know any game that uses a deterministic physics system, apart from games that have very basic movement that doesn't require a physics engine, such as among us (probably). The reason why it doesn't happen in online races is likely because the multiplayer system is server biased (i don't remember the actual word) which means that what you see in your screen is just a local simulation, your inputs are sent to the server which then runs its own simulation and decides the actual results. If there is a difference in your local simulation and the server simulation, the game will gently apply the corrections to your local sim. If the difference between what the server calculated and what your game calculated is too large, that is when the game might teleport you to the server's calculated position. Besides that, even if the game ignores a small amount of difference, the timer will be based on the server's simulation. So it doesn't matter if you're running on 10 fps or 100 in your local sim, what would matter is the server's performance. Even that won't matter much in a race since everyone will face the same affects caused by the server's performance

[@WSX-]

this game's physics became very forgiving

[@AEMNinja98]

No not at all they keep making it worse and worse

[@damnsonalabanca420]

FH4 physics so much more fun

[@humbledcoder_]

Is there a solution to car rotating on the same place in first gear (using g29) it’s just frustrating ☠️☠️

[@erickrene5600]

es como en resident evil 4 los daños y los time event (mas rapidos) son distintos dependiendo si estas jugando a 30 o 60 fps

[@gabrieleb5408]

Best forza content

[@Alexey_Ivanov330]

for professionals :)

[@RDRS_Phoenix]

Knew it wasn’t because we spent five nights at Gumi’s 🦜

[@AdamHemi]

🐦

[@Allthatshitbyme]

sweat opr mfers

[@romie-777]

🦜

[@OnlyToast__]

Limiting fps frees up your cpu. As physics is done client side could it mean your cpu can process more from the physics engine, that would explain why there's no bump on the 60fps telemetry.

[@Mike23443]

watching this video after the physics engine explanation video from the engine simulator guy makes it make so much sense.

[@limpetarch98k]

At this point, after 610 hours of playtime on FH5, the game is just awful, might as well just play Asetto Corsa. >proceeds to play FH5 after writing this comment anyway

[@MotordeDaria3027]

Forza Fans = 🤡

[@staringcontest]

Interesting video. I have an xbox and a pretty good pc (framerate is normally in 100s). I run lots of rivals mainly on pc, but sometimes on xbox. I've set pb laps on both. I can't say I've noticed this bug myself and I usually race my own ghost. It seems like a massive oversight for a racing game if it is correct.

[@o_sagui6583]

The fact the game physics are not deterministic is already a oversight as it is

[@xandersmith263]

Thanks for shedding light on this issue! Now I understand why I am always 10 seconds behind everyone

[@natestinson69]

Soemthing I’ve noticed is that in race physics seem to different greatly from free roam physics, I take a corner is free roam at 75 and hit the apex great, in a race I hit the same corner the same way and get massive under steer and throw off the track

[@alexandriabrangwin]

This happens in every game with a time and therefore physics altering mechanic....like rewind in driving games or V.A.T.S. in Fallout 4. Once the system was ported to Fallout 76, players found those with unlimited frame rates could run faster than people who didn't as physics was tied to framerate. Add to that Horizon was the fun-park-not-seriuz-candy-racer compared to the straight-faces-stopwatch of Forza Motorsport 7 (despite it having a rewind mechanic too).

[@loloriri1204]

I don't think there is really a complete solution for this problem, because a better pc will just go through the code in the loops faster. I had the same problem (but far worse) in a small racing game I had to programm for university and the professor said there isn't really a solution to fully eliminate that problem. On my slow Laptop it would take about double the amount of time to finish the course compared to a gaming pc.

[@VariantAEC]

Your professor was likely not that well versed in programming. There are always work arounds in the virtual world it's why really terrible HW by today's standards was already able to give us consistent results.