Herodotus and India - Scylax of Caryanda sails the Indus River, Gold-digging Ants and other tales

Whether you believe he's the "father of history" or the "father of lies," Herodotus' tales of what was during his day the exotic east are always entertaining. These include the stories he told about India, a land that most Greeks in the 5th century BC had never even heard of. In this video we'll take a look at what the Greeks knew about India before the arrival of Alexander the Great.
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Sources and Suggested Reading:
The Landmark Herodotus - Herodotus, Robert B. Strassler, Andrea L. Purvis (Translator)
Herodotus and the Question Why - Christopher Pelling (Author)
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[@aldiboronti]

Herodotus has always been my favourite historian. He may well lack the reliability of Thucydides or Livy but he's such a wonderful storyteller. Recently subscribed to your channel and love it.

[@Shaymuhs]

I feel the same way about Churchill and his books on English history. Both are fantastic.

[@bettylaselli2048]

​@@Shaymuhsi agree!

[@john-ic5pz]

an unreliable historian? you misspelled novelist, I think.

[@wilcowen]

All three have lots of bais

[@levitatingoctahedron922]

it's popular for midwits who haven't read him like john up above to thrash on him because they heard jokes about him, but he was generally very clear on whether or not he observed something himself or only heard about it from someone else, and often shared his skepticism on various claims. he's an invaluable resource because a lot of what he writes down are what the average greek citizen likely believed, it was how they viewed the world around them. these aren't people with a modern scientific and skeptical culture, they believed in gods, miracles, cataclysms and monsters. it makes his books among the most valuable for understanding ancient greek culture. pausanias has a couple of books that are also very good for the same reasons.

[@Izwat]

The oldest mention of Greeks in Indian history is in the Yuga Purana, a Hindu text that was written sometime between the 2nd and 4th centuries CE. The text refers to the Greeks as "Yavanas" and says that they invaded India during the Kali Yuga, the current epoch of time in Hindu cosmology. The Yuga Purana is not the only Indian text that mentions the Yavanas. The Mahabharata, an epic poem that was written sometime between the 4th and 6th centuries BCE, also refers to them. In the Mahabharata, the Yavanas are described as a powerful and wealthy people who came from the West. The Greeks first came into contact with India in the 4th century BCE, when Alexander the Great invaded the subcontinent. After Alexander's death, his generals carved up his empire and one of them, Seleucus I Nicator, took control of the eastern provinces, including Bactria. Bactria was located in what is now Afghanistan and Tajikistan, and it was here that a Greek-speaking culture developed. In the 2nd century BCE, the Greco-Bactrian kingdom collapsed and a number of Greek kingdoms emerged in the Indian subcontinent. These kingdoms, collectively known as the Indo-Greek Kingdom, lasted for over 200 years. During this time, there was a great deal of cultural exchange between the Greeks and Indians. The Greeks introduced their language, art, and architecture to India, while the Indians introduced their religion, philosophy, and mathematics to the Greeks. The Indo-Greek Kingdom eventually collapsed in the 1st century BCE, but the legacy of the Greeks in India continued. The Indian words for "mathematics" and "geometry" are derived from Greek words, and many Indian architectural features, such as the dome and the arch, were introduced by the Greeks. The oldest mention of Greeks in Indian history is a testament to the long and lasting relationship between these two cultures. The Greeks and Indians exchanged ideas, goods, and people for centuries, and their mutual influence can still be seen today.

[@abhir7823]

Which Indian word for mathematics is derived from greek ?

[@filthybutthole]

CE is gay and real historians center time around Christ because it makes sense

[@SJking-gk4go]

Greeks didn't invade.

[@stormshadow5283]

Bruh.....mathematics and geometry was already well known to the Indians. Thirdly, the Puranas (literally translated as "the histories") were updated with each passing age up until the Islamic invasion....the Puranas were NOT written after the Greeks came but as usual updated to represent the process of history. Many Greeks prior to Alexander's invasion had come to be familiar with Indian concepts such as philosophy, mathematics, geometry and so on. More than the Indo-Greeks....Greek culture became influential and mixed with Indian art during the Kushan Empire as the latter were the one (especially King Kanishka) who sought to represent Buddha in a human form. However, most Hindu circles rejected Greek influence as Greeks, Kushans and even Persians were seen as "Mleccha" or barbarian.

[@SJking-gk4go]

@@stormshadow5283 can you tell me please who exactly were the kushan empire.??

[@Koorush_bazurg]

I think the Paktyins mentioned by Herodotus were the same as Pectyans of Later Greeks. Ie. The Pakhtuns of north west Pakistan and nearby Afghanistan

[@gavinlepoer9424]

The Pashtun? You think they were Greek? Where did you get this idea?

[@kapilsethia9284]

@@gavinlepoer9424 where did he imply that?

[@stormshadow5283]

No Paktyins is an ancient Greek word for Pakistani.

[@fomoviews2642]

​@@stormshadow5283It's not an old word for Pakistan 😂. Paktyins refers to the pakhtuns or the modern day pashtuns. Paktha tribe was one of the many indo-aryan tribes who have been mentioned in the Vedas. They used to live near the Indus river but were ousted and forced to settle in the mountainous regions of present day Afghanistan and Khyber pakhtunkua. They started out as indians who used to speak Sanskrit but their language diverged due to the Persian influence in the last 1000 years and the reason why pashto closely resembles the avestan language as opposed to Persian which is more influenced from other western Iranians languages. The pashtuns were largely Hindus and Buddhists till the islamised Turks invaded the region and the pashtuns lost their native culture.

[@stormshadow5283]

@@fomoviews2642 lmao no... paktyin is the root of modern day Pakistan. Stop your mental gymnastics bro. The word Pashtun find no reference until the late middle ages. Even then what we call Pashtuns today are a large mix of heterogeneous tribes diverse origins lobbed together for the sake of simplicity. Besides, you can't call the Paktha tribe as "Indo Aryan" as the Vedas clearly specify people like Bactrians (Valhika), Persians (Parasika), Pakhta, Tukhara (Tocharians) etc as non-Arya. Why would the Vedic aryans call their own people as un-Arya? The fact is that it was clear then that there remained a clear distinction between aryas and non-Aryas. So these modern day attempts at calling Indians and Pakistanis the "same people" is absolute foolishness. Even ancient people recognised and acknowledged a dostinct Paktyan culture.

[@JonnoPlays]

Personally I believe the ants digging gold story. It's not so far fetched to think that the ant's activity could help move gold into concentrations which made following the ants the same as following the gold.

[@martinbassi7457]

Why retreat to the world of fantasy by reading The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter when Herodotus Histories is Even more facinating and educational.

[@AngryHistorian87]

I think you might also be interested of another Greek explorer named Pytheas.

[@HistorywithCy]

Of course, but in another video...thanks for watching!

[@salmanzafar86]

Thank you for the work that you do !! I am fascinated by ancient history especially Persian history this channel is one of the best on KZbin!!

[@JulienCohenMusic]

Greeks were so inaccurate about Israel that I can't believe they could be accurate about India

[@stormshadow5283]

I mean Greeks were known for spinning tales in the ancient world....so their writings and accounts should be taken with a large dose of salt

[@loke6664]

Both ants and burrowing mammals do dig up earth that contains things from below including gold nuggets and archaeological artifacts, more then one lost site have been found that way. I think Herodotus got the original story wrong between the first telling of the story and when it reached him. It was probably ants *and* mammals larger then foxes but smaller then dogs in the original story. Some of Herodotus stories are just weird and make no sense but I think this one is kinda true and it is just the wording that is wrong. As for Scylax, it is harder to sat what was going on since H probably had access to Scylax story, either in writing or from someone that was on the trip. It is possible they just screwed up a bit with the directions since they didn't have a compass or that something similar to the ants were going on and they first traveled east on a river to India and then took the Indus river, hard to say. But since other sources mentions Scylax I think he probably did do the journey.

[@madderhat5852]

The closing landscape shot was breathtaking.

[@HistorywithCy]

Yes, it is... its a valley in the Himalayas. Thanks for watching!

[@aightimmaheadout3573]

i love your channel, thanks 🙏

[@HistorywithCy]

Thank you too for watching!

[@StMiBll]

I have often wondered how the world would be were a lot of Herodotus’ fantastical elements in his history were true. I haven’t read his work in many years and forgot about the giant ants but, aside from the obvious reasons for not want ants that big in the world, how cool would that be?! It is even more amazing to think of the Greek and Persian explorers going into parts unknown with naught but these stories to guide them through the unknown. How cool would it have been to have been on one of those expeditions!

[@vazak11]

Love seeing this covered!

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, I hope to cover more stories from Herodotus. Thanks for watching!

[@gabbyn978]

When you quoted the report of Skylax having followed the river to the east and then circumnavigated the land in order to return, I first thought that he accidentally traveled along the Ganges without noticing. But your explanation makes more sense. Such a voyage would probably have taken longer than just two and a half years.

[@spacebunny4335]

A follow up video on Megasthenes and his experience in India would be cool.

[@HistorywithCy]

Oh that's a good idea... I'll do something on him when I get to the Seleucids. Thanks for the suggestion!

[@IranTalk]

Excellent work! Great to see you representing your homeland, well.

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it and more on the way, stay tuned and thanks for watching!

[@IranTalk]

@@HistorywithCy Thanks, will do.

[@Danetto]

great video

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

[@henkstersmacro-world]

👍👍👍Reading Herodotus is always a good choice!!

[@HistorywithCy]

Agreed, I'll do more vids on his stories in future...thanks for watching!

[@aurelienyonrac]

Great story.

[@HistorywithCy]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@m.a.9571]

The elephant in the thumbnail looks pretty cool ngl

[@Lalalala22537]

would love to see a video on indo aryans and their beliefs and how they impacted zoroastrianism and hinduism .

[@Numba003]

I love these sorts of ancient documents about magical distant lands lol. Thank you very much for another excellent video. God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)

[@HistorywithCy]

Thank you, glad you enjoyed it... same to you, stay safe!

[@professor0076]

cool! the rains in cali were said on the news to have washed the gold out n into the lower streams. cy u still planning a vid on Alexender the great? Daniel 10:20 king james version

[@starcapture3040]

is there any episode coming about the nabateans?

[@HistorywithCy]

Yes, eventually, I think it's scheduled for the first half of this next year. Thanks for watching!

[@karrimuurimaa5622]

A little offtopic here, it is about this neo-assyrian king Ashurbanipal, who said in one of your quotations that he has examined strange text from pre-flood era, which indicates that there assumably were texts from antediluvian civilizations...

[@stormshadow5283]

Really? Do you have any source where i can read more of?

[@BenSHammonds]

very good

[@HistorywithCy]

Thanks!

[@BenSHammonds]

is always my pleasure, I enjoy your programs and ancient history, the early farm folk and Anatolian Farmers migration into Europe is a fascinating research Im enjoying currently. @@HistorywithCy

[@ethanpf449]

Can you do a video on the Kuru Kingdom please

[@adisura9904]

Iv heard some people claim that some mathematical and philosophical transfer might have also taken place from Indian universities. However I haven't come across any primary sources of that yet.

[@stormshadow5283]

It's true.....for instance, the Baudhyana Sulvasutras provided the first mention of what the Greeks later called the pythagoras theorem.... The theorem in Sanskrit is as follows: दीर्घचतुरस्रस्याक्ष्णया रज्जुः पार्श्वमानी तिर्यग् मानी च यत् पृथग् भूते कुरूतस्तदुभयं करोति ॥ English transliteration: dīrghachatursrasyākṣaṇayā rajjuḥ pārśvamānī, tiryagmānī, cha yatpṛthagbhūte kurutastadubhayāṅ karoti Translation: The diagonal of an oblong produces by itself both the areas which the two sides of the oblong produce separately.

[@RFmath_]

Reading a lot of Herodotus... for your third intermediate period video? :p

[@jessklay8594]

Title of video caught me by surprise. I was like HUH?!

[@chrisrhodes2]

Am I crazy or would a TV series are based on Herodotus or later Ibn Batuta (probably butchered spelling) be an amazing show that could easily go a decade?

[@SobekLOTFC]

Eeeey it's new Cy! Hail βασιλεύς!

[@aurelienyonrac]

Can you do a video on the tablet found in pre Alexandria writen in Aramaic and greek. Just to point tha Jesus could have read it and also Socrates. And that it was writen by a buddist king. Ashoka And that embassy that imolated himself. Definitely strange that it is not more talked abou 😮

[@christoffernordholm5818]

That there is no earlier preserved greek sources on india written before herodotus does not equal that the greeks did not have knowledge about india before that time

[@DesertAres]

Herodotus has great stories about all kinds of unbelievable people---some with no noses, some with no mouths, no ears, etc. There's usually a translation problem from his writings or he misunderstood what he was hearing. How many times do we hear in English stories from someone that defy belief or are simply lies. We have google, et al to discover (we hope) the truth. Herodotus had no access to any other source than the person telling the story.

[@marysylvie2012]

This India was not the nowadays India, but just Pakistan and a little bit more, along the Indus River.

[@fomoviews2642]

There was no such thing as Pakistan back then coz Islam didn't exist back then. India extended till Afghanistan back in the day. You can't call the Byzantine Empire as ancient turkey just because the Turks occupy the Anatolian region today.

[@rajaseelan6934]

....resembling that of bacteria and the most warlike of the Indians.... That is very interesting.

[@stormshadow5283]

Well Bactrians (or Valhika) were considered part of Jambudweep albeit they were considered as Mleccha or barbarian since they didn't live according to Varnasrama and were nomadic.

[@brettmuir5679]

Wool made in trees? I've seen goats in trees. Herodotus must have never visited Greece as he was such the traveler.

[@amalialovesicecream]

Wool made in trees=first description of cotton.

[@brettmuir5679]

@@amalialovesicecream so true

[@TheDanEdwards]

0:41 "thus herodotus's histories contains the earliest preserved account of India from Antiquity " - you are of course dissing Indian writings, aren't you?

[@stormshadow5283]

Lmao Greek accounts are as reliable as fantasy tales. The Puranas (or "The histories ") are a more reliable account

[@ayushkumarsingh3029]

​@@stormshadow5283purana were written much later And various purana contradict eachother

[@beepboop204]

[@DrumRoody]

Did skylax have a lazy brother named snorelax?

[@AthrihosPithekos]

His name most likely means dog puppy. Go figure.

[@SeanCStark]

Strabo's Geography Book 15 .44 How to lure away those gold digging ants, the "myrmeces", ..with "the flesh of wild beasts". Also .69 "..some say the gold ants have wings". Great chapter. Also on how to tame wild elephants...🪄🐘

[@johnbooth1110]

Solomons fleets traded with Kerala

[@cyan1616]

Caspian Sea and Pakistan? Why do people expect place names to stay the same over thousands of years?

[@latro8192]

Couln't Paktyikan simply have been Paktia?

[@usmanqureshi08]

First I thought as well but somebody mentioned Puktoon , it makes more sense

[@VM-is8by]

Sanskrit word for greeks is 'yavana'...almost all indian language have same word for greek people

[@monikamathur241]

binod

[@kevinjoseph8707]

first

[@suleymancakr3067]

Allajbayırrımha?!??!?!?’bömb

[@Flum666]

well the whole fireants the size of small dogs bringing up gold from the sand, has pretty mush been debunked, so we know Herodetus isn't a very reliable historian

[@almitrahopkins1873]

paktyike is likely Pakistan. When you read something that comes from a second or third-hand description, you have to be able to figure out if the name is correct or if it was misremembered, mistranscribed or mistranslated.

[@justincovert6943]

The word Pakistan is a modern creation and didn't exist prior to the states creation. I believe it is an acronym

[@danyelnicholas]

Unfortunately, however interesting your narrative, I had to abandon it because the constant drumming noise wrecks my nerves.

[@HistorywithCy]

Hi, thanks for letting me know. I apologize for that as it sounded differently on my end when I was reviewing it. Really appreciate the feedback and will watch out, or rather listen when making future videos.

[@usmanqureshi08]

😢 how can you equate history of Indus River(Pakistan) with modern day republic of India It’s like saying Romanians were Romans 😂

[@ayushkumarsingh3029]

Herodotus calls lands east of indus as India

[@fomoviews2642]

Calling king purushottam and Bappa Rawal as Pakistanis is as absurd as calling the kings of Byzantine as ancient Turks. Pakistani history starts with the invasion of Bin Qasim as per your own text book. Just because you control this land does not mean you are the inheritors of the ancient history of this region. It's like saying indo-greeks who settled in North Western India are the descendants of Indus valley civilization.

[@TheRedneckPreppy]

It would have been a hoot to go with Herodotus on this trip, if only to see how a Greek would have covered this journey to a land so far away from the homeland. Not the most reliable historian but I always found his writing to be entertaining.

[@HistorywithCy]

Oh yeah he's always fun to read. I'll cover more of his stories in other videos...thanks for watching!