HeroQuest: Spirit Queen's Torment Campaign Review | For Zargon Player's Only | FULL SPOILERS!

[@benvickery]

I started watching to give you a like and a comment but leaving now as I play by myself and don’t want it spoilt!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you for the stopping by. I really appreciate the support. But yes, you are totally doing the right thing not watching on. I hope you have a lot of fun playing through the quest.

[@Hannman97]

I liked this campaign for 1 reason, it’s a campaign you can play with new heroes. It gives the heroes many of the same artifacts from the base game and gives them a similar gear progression.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

That's a fair point. It's the same monsters, a similar campaign length, and a lot of similar loot. It could certainly be used as an alternative way in for a new team of heroes.

[@jandukanocraft]

Hannman what I like the most on this one is the attempt to increase the role playing aspect on HeroQuest. When I DM it I always try to add some descriptions, npc encounters, etc.

[@Merlynn132]

This is why I like watching your vids. You put in ideas to improve the game. It's always important to get the most out of your game.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks. This particular mission feels so incomplete or disjointed in places I am sure most Zargon players running it would make adjustments as they go along.

[@HivisoftheScale]

This campaigns theme song; "What a Wonderful Waaagh!"

[@MrBigB312]

19:38 Feels like Udren would be the natural choice for the NPC to find, provided she survived the earlier quest (ours didn’t 🤦‍♂️). Barring that you could use Sigil (No one at our table is going to play the bard). These are great ideas you’ve tossed out and I’ll definitely be using them since we’re playing through SQT right now 👍🏻👍🏻

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks for watching. Glad you found some of the ideas useful.

[@ps6704]

Nice vid. Still on the fence on buying this. Has anyone primed and painted the minis on transparent plastic? I'm sure they'd turn out OK just keen to hear it from someone who has tried it!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks. They will paint up fine. There is a video coming on the channel where I paint one and I have painted different types of translucent miniatures in the past as well.

[@Valentine82]

It would be amazing if you could do a detailed analysis of the other expansions like this, I really enjoyed your critique of the missions and story. Please do Kellars Keep and the Witch Lord as I imagine you know them inside out.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

While I've reviewed the early expansions, I haven't done a quest-by-quest analysis because I figured they have been around for such a long time nobody would really care what I had to say about them. Maybe I will look into doing it. Thanks for the feedback.

[@Valentine82]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring, that is a fair point. I believe your fans of HQ including myself would love to hear your experiences & thoughts on the missions and story. It’s very enjoyable to hear your take on the matter. Whatever you decide to do, your content is outstanding and I personally always look forward new videos relating to HQ from your good self.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the kind words and the support for the channel. I will definitely consider what you've said.

[@MarkStewart-b8l]

I’ll add my vote for this style of quest breakdown for KK and ROTWL please!

[@EriktheRed2023]

Thank you very much for this! This will help me decide on whether to buy this expansion. Now, to watch the video...

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I hope you find the video useful.

[@EriktheRed2023]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring I did indeed!

[@jandukanocraft]

Great review. I don’t like the bard either. Mainly because I don’t like bards and I don’t like good orcs. I agree with your opinion about wasted potential with this book. Anyway, happy questing!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks. I think this quest line needed to drill more into a few of the good ideas that are in there, rather than bouncing around lots of half-developed ones.

[@kendiamond7852]

Bards are awful. They instantly make any game a joke.

[@HeroQuestFans]

​@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring that's probably the key thing here. there's a balance to be found between "we overly defined everything for you, leaving no room for creativity or imagination" and "here's a messy grab bag of ideas because we can't be bothered" when it comes to these releases

[@krs4395]

I plan to just replace the Orc Bard with a human one.

[@CharlieO_]

Someone HAS to have a 28mm Chris Pine.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I have a very nice female bard elf miniature from Reaper that I have had for years.

[@haxan6663]

Bard elf makes sense but bard orc??!!!! Have you heard orcs singing? Terrible.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

It's funny that one of the bard spells is a lullaby. It's like they purposefully picked the dopiest options.

[@CharlieO_]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring There are a lot of beastie type bard minis available. I'm thinking of getting a Gnoll or Loxodon with bagpipes, calling it an Anti-Bard and giving it some spells that will be difficult for the Heroes to deal with. I may or may not hinge its entry based on the players choice to include our musical ork buddy.

[@artistpoet5253]

I'm planning to play it solo so this will be one I don't watch right away but I still wanted to comment to help the video and channel. Cheers.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you for the support. I hope you have a lot of fun playing through the quest.

[@nerzeus]

At what point will the "heroes" begin to question whether they are really the good ones if they're killing innocent orcs and never taking prisoners like Zargon's troops do.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

This is true. Zargon seems very fond of taking prisoners, while the heroes are very much into looting corpses.

[@EnDungeoned]

Replacing all the Orcs in this with Human Bandits (maybe using henchmen miniatures) would go a long way to fixing it.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Absolutely. The first thing I would do to run this is swap out all the orcs for henchmen from Frozen Horror. There's still a lot more I would want to do, but with just that one change I would fee a little more engaged with the story, at least.

[@jasonnewell7036]

That bard isn't an orc. It's a standard human bard in an orc suit.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Some kind of fantasy furry? Oh... is it a TikTok cosplayer?

[@jandukanocraft]

Jason, I think it could be a character who took too many fantasy steroids.

[@murgel2006]

Well, this guestbook is a prime example of the possibilities the Internet offers to a company. TBH, listening to you it would be best if Avalon Hill were to redo this whole book, drop the "great" idea of good orcs and publish a revised guestbook online substituting any good orcs with something different, maybe even a new race and correcting those massive flaws. Besides that, there is now a great opportunity to offer a human bard mini as another pack or even a few minis of said new race. Hasbro, there is money to be made!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I think the idea with these guest books was to illustrate the possibilities of the system by letting a few Internet personalities go to tow and come up with whatever they wanted. I just won't consider this expansion canon, and that's why a lot of the loot is stuff the heroes would have already found in the core game.

[@thomasaworboys8146]

Nailed it. Zargon has some homebrewing to do on this one! Great ideas. Love the air pocket idea and the dread elemental spells!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Yeah. I think the ideas are there, they just haven't been developed enough. Good Zargon's can really spice things up.

[@marco.t82]

In avalon hill new version, when you start a new expansions, does the heroes keep their equiment and generically they "experience" from past quest pack ? I remember original ogre horde was very hard , and elf and frozen horror too, as they were created to keep usig the same experienced hero you developed in previous quest packs...

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

The idea is you keep the same heroes, but you can also swap out heroes, and play expansions in any order. Some are just easier than others, and Zargon can always tweak the difficulty to suit the current party level.

[@CharlieO_]

Bro - I havent watched the video yet, I just saw the thumbnail and thought, "He's going to pin that Orc Bard on every product associated with it." And honestly, we all should.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

He deserves it. To be honest though, this is probably the last time I will bully the orc bard, now. I've said my piece on him, and he can go for a nice long lie down in the game box.

[@CharlieO_]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Truly, that is the closest thing to a mob reference I've ever heard you say.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

When I say the orc bard sleeps with the fishes, I simply mean he's in the box with the abominations. Honest.

[@HeroQuestFans]

I don't think it was intended that the "Orc allies" were to use the Bard miniature (or stats/abilities). instead they just use any regular Orc figure and stats like the monster card, thus not interfering with the "bard replaces first dead hero" mechanic in this expansion. the female sorcerer was also already included with the Mythic set (but it was a higher stretch goal than the SQT booklet, so it wasn't guaranteed at the time the quests were likely written). the original rule is that a dead hero is replaced in the next quest by a duplicate with a new name. the bard rule allows an instant replacement (assuming you don't have the elixir of life) but only first hero... one time, assuming nobody picked the bard as a starting character. a bit clumsy yes, but I feel like I understand what they were going for. having a sonic the hedgehog style "air bubble hunt" would be kind of cool. the zero mind points thing probably was intended to mean death, otherwise one of those two quests would leave the heroes unkillable by monsters (I doubt shock was in mind since Frozen Horror wasn't being remade yet at the time the Mythic set was written). I don't mind that there could be more than one copy of an artifact, but some would. otherwise nice review breaking it down. I haven't played it yet, but I thought it was more interesting than CoPD, but not as promising as PoT.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

But the fact this is the second printing of this campaign and they still didn't put a line "Sigill/Udren has the same stats as a regular orc" is baffling. I would expect this campaign was written before any confirmation on final stretch goals, especially the late ones at the end, so I understand why they would have originally said to use the gargoyle (although why they didn't say to use the dread sorcerer miniature beats me), but again, for this reprint it's sloppy not to change that text. The introduction of the bard character during a mission is incredibly clumsy because it doesn't say to replace Sigill's/Udren's piece with the bard, it just says to set up the bard as a new character. The rules never clearly explain that the bard actually IS Sigill or Udren. That's certainly the implication, but the rules should clearly state "when a hero dies Sigill/Udren leaps into action and takes their place. Replace Sigill/Udren with the bard miniature. The player now controls the bard." Again, it can be resolved with a single line of additional text, although it is still really bad design that a lowly ally with orc stats and non-defined "gear" is suddenly a swash-buckling bard with a rapier and spells. Zero mind points was almost certainly intended to mean death, but how did an expansion get written (and reprinted) for a game that doesn't have those rules defined? Again, it's a single line of text. Overall, it feels very sloppy. Yes, Zargon can rule away or interpret all the issues fairly easily, and people like myself who have been following Avalon Hill's reprint since it was a timer on a webpage can draw on a lot of additional knowledge of the system, but with a second print of the quest those issues shouldn't really be there.

[@HeroQuestFans]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring yeah. the bard and "orc ally" can exist side by side, so to me they would need to explain both scenarios to really get to the level of clarity you're asking for, and fair point that's not too hard, just a few extra sentences in the final revision that appears to have had plenty of time to update. I also agree, that despite our ability as experienced GMs (whether that's 30 years or 1 year) to improvise and smooth over rough edges, we should still demand polish from these products. past quests certainly called for different figures to represent special named characters, but agreed that the dread sorcerer would have fit the best in this case (unless that figure is already being used). it does make me wonder (similar to Rogar's Hall) if the author was working with limited data at the time of release, though then why not make the change later if it was more fitting? not sure if Mr. Abadia (or whoever revised his work) were aware of the final contents of the retail box at the time of those revisions either, but that just says communicate better with your team, if so.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Absolutely. When you've already got a great game system, it's the lack of polish on products like this that will let it down. It does seem like there may have been a lack of understanding or communication during the design process.

[@georgeadsett-knutsen829]

Although I have the Mythic tier, after watching this, dammit, I bought this on Amazon! I quite like the translucent minis for ghostly versions of the minions (will watch your painting vid later with interest). I thought quite good for an evil sorcerer to raise previously killed monsters if heroes are carving through the quest too easily. What are you house-ruling re Mind damage in this quest? Unconscious? Disoriented less movement? Something else? Cheers.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I would rule that zero mind points means you fall unconscious and get swept away by the currents to die, just to add some threat, otherwise you might as well just skip that mission entirely. Heroes have one chance to drink a potion that restores mind points (just as when hitting zero body points), or it's lights out.

[@HivisoftheScale]

Yeah... I dunno. This Quest book always felt a bit off to me. Kinda like they couldn't commit to a theme. The Title suggests undead shenanigans, possibly like a call back to Return of the Witchlord. But then it turns into Diplomacy with Orcs, kinda killing the undead theme. And then finishes off with a four elements concept?! It's like "pick a lane!"

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

It does bounce around all over the place. I think a haunted, flooded temple is a great concept and could have been the central focus of the campaign. I would have had it being taken over by abominations, and give them advantages for attacking in water. Stuff like that. It was a perfect opportunity to give the fish folk a real chance to shine.

[@paulcooper6048]

Has any come up with fixes to these issues?

[@zug1974]

I'm sad to hear this about Spirit's Queen Torment...I was looking forward to it after I read though Prophecy of Telor and really enjoyed it. But Prophecy is written by HQ creator Stephen Baker, so it's unsurprising that it retains the original's feel. I was curious about the use of the Gargoyle as the spirit queen, so I used the wayback machine to look at the old Hasbro-pulse stretch goal list. Spirit Queen's Torment was unlocked at the $3.0m level along with the bard, and the dread sorcerer was unlocked at the $3.6m level. There's no way you would have had one without the other. It's very weird that it wasn't corrected. The gargoyle would have literally been the last model I would have grabbed for if I was looking to represent a spectral Elven sorceress.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I haven't received Prophecy of Telor yet but I am expecting it to be significantly better than Spirit Queen's Torment. Not least because of Baker's involvement. The use of the gargoyle as a sorcerer is very strange. There is a sorcerer miniature in the core game that would have worked better, after all.

[@zug1974]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring OK, now that I'm looking again, the female dread sorcerer was literally the last thing unlocked before the crowdfund ended. (Hasbro gifted Mythic backers the extra Gargoyle and Crypt of Perpetual Darkness)...so there was a possibility that it wasn't going to be there, but there's no excuse for not fixing it for the re-release.

[@HeroQuestFans]

maybe you could see the "demonic" look of the gargoyle evoking what the Spirit Queen embodied or something, but yes otherwise it is an odd choice. unless the dread sorcerer was already being used in that quest, you might as well have that representing the named evil sorcerer character (HQ doesn't always do this, sometimes it's a chaos warrior, orc with the large sword, etc. wardoz/karlen was a zombie, etc. instead). was there some other plan in an earlier draft originally? who knows

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

On two separate occasions in this one quest, the writer represents two different sorcerers with the gargoyle miniature while the sorcerer miniature is never used. It's like they didn't know there was a sorcerer miniature in the game. Yes, quests don't always use the sorcerer for the big boss, but quests have always tried to use a "best fit" miniature. For Wardoz they used a zombie because he was a zombie, Ulag was an orc with a big sword because he was an orc with a big sword, Balur was a sorcerer because he was a sorcerer.

[@Mark-nh2hs]

Spill the blood of Orcs and boot the Goblins as far as you can 😂

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Kick the goblin. Don't kick the goblin... Kick the goblin!

[@Mark-nh2hs]

@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring you boot them as far as you can

[@carlosbarreto4695]

I finally played the Bard... And he died on his *FIRST* quest. I don't blame him, though. It was the main quest 10, Castle of Mystery. That magical door crap split the party and almost killed the Rogue (who used 2 healing potions and 1 Heroic Brew to leave alive). Poor Orc Bard. What a terrible start.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Oh no. That quest can be tricky for some of the characters that are a bit squishy. I played it with the Rogue, and halfway through the quest I stumbled back to the entrance room and decided to cut my losses and leave because I was so close to death. The rest of the party had to pick up the slack.

[@leew6537]

Congrats on 16k. Did it come round quicker than 15?😊

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thanks. Had a big influx of new subscribers over the last few days, which is amazing.

[@stuartmc4422]

Good review! Pity it doesn't meet your expectations, though.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you. There's still enough there that I don't regret my purchase, but I would be surprised if I loved absolutely everything that Avalon Hill ever did for the game. At some point there will always be something that doesn't connect with me in quite the same way.

[@CharlieO_]

Ok - finally watched. 1) I am REALLY glad I did watch this before playing it. Especially bc I'm Zargon. 2) This is exactly what you get when you let the corporate formula filter talent out of a product. I can hear the table talk- Bob from Has-bruh: "Yeah, so... turns out, kids dont actually like to read, sooo lets keep that to a minimum and the one page description is gonna go ahead for each quest. " Sven from AH, "But we have a real chance here to explain exactly WHY the bard is an orc, why some orcs are good, why variability in races and classes can be contributive and even ... a good thing." Bob: "Actually, [shaking papers he just pulled out of thin air], uh... explaining things to people who have questions is bad.... for sales. Yeah. But thats a great idea, Sven. Really." [Bob turns around and gives the hand slicing neck gesture from "The Dictator" to a security guy wearing sunglasses inside who begins mumbling into his sleeve...

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I said this elsewhere, but it feels almost like they wanted to demonstrate the flexibility of the system so they let Teos Abadia do whatever they wanted. It feels very non-canon to me.

[@HeroQuestFans]

the GenCon interviews (both the ones I recorded and some that were "off the record") led me to believe that the AH team deliberately left gaps in the stories and kept certain things vague in order to encourage the players to more easily bend the story to their imaginations. some would find that an excuse for lazy writing I suppose, but that's what they said. Chris (Encarmine) was resistant to the idea that every little bit of lore has to be definitively answered from on high for the community (even if that's what a lot of online fans are clamoring for). I think back to vintage HQ and how we had varying rulesets and alternate names for characters and multiple interpretations of things in supplementary material (Dave Morris novels, Marvel Winter Special, computer games) and no strict regulations on what order to play the quests in (though some serious suggestions for a couple of the packs, to be fair, mostly having to do with difficulty experience). many modern fantasy fans seem to be stuck in the idea that your IP either needs a strict "canon" or else a "multiverse." I agree that for many of us we use the term "canon" to just mean "I like this installment but not this other one" (more like "headcanon"). HeroQuest does a lot for you but it also leaves a lot to the imagination, on purpose (so they claim).

[@1000jjwalker]

the kid in me wants more and more different heroes and races. but the DM in me wants less...

[@UntroddenGaming]

Hey, now. The orc bard isn't completely terrible. I got a test piece for painting because I would never allow something so abysmal at my table out of it. Seriously, my orc bard looks like a bunch of splotches of paint became animated. That's all I use that awful thing for. If I ever run this adventure, I'll be doing some heavy editorializing.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Ha. You almost had me there!

[@martinfiedler4317]

The quests indeed seem very lacking. What a disappointment. Couldn't they have at least provided a few nice tiles? Especially for the furnaces...

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

A few tiles would have been nice. At one point they use pit trap tokens to represent whirlwinds. That's a bit much.

[@SouthernWolf]

Just here to give a thumbs up on the video but can't watch because I just received my copy!!

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Thank you for supporting the channel. I hope you have fun with Spirit Queen's Torment.

[@hispazargon]

Fully agree with ABNB. The story has a lot of plot flaws and lots of non sense nor incomplete mechanics even after making a revised edition of it for the retail box.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I think it's got good ideas, none of which really go anywhere because nothing sticks for long enough. They could have made a whole campaign out of searching a partially flooded, haunted temple. There's loads of mileage there, but this quest hits on something special and then slides right off it to the next thing.

[@haxan6663]

I haven't touched Heroquest since League of Dungeoneers arrived and I now have Dungeons of Doria to play as well. Not to mention Dungeon Crusade being delivered soon. Heroquest hasn't got a chance.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I hope you have more fun with Dungeons of Doria than I did.

[@Grognard-Solo-Gaming]

Great review! 👏👍 Watching this video, I realized the whole good orcs thing might be the same thing D&D went through a while ago. I don’t quite recall, but I think it’s (hilariously) in order to not be racist towards the nonexistent creatures of their imaginary world. I’ll be getting this anyway, I want a complete HQ collection and to paint all the minis. But I could also have done without the good orcs 😂

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Yes, D&D moved away from things like racial traits and the idea of orcs and goblins always being evil. It's not entirely surprising something similar would happen in HeroQuest, but I just think HeroQuest isn't the right platform for that at all. I think the expansion is still worth it. I wanted the miniatures and the dice, and there are good ideas in the campaign. However, for me this is definitely the weakest quest pack so far.

[@bgears2000]

I got this and Prophecy of Telor for Christmas. Having a Quick Look through the quests, I thought this one looked the superior. Spoilers, but PoT focuses the first 2/3 on a villain who then simply disappears with no conclusion at all. I think that’d annoy me more as a player.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I'm still waiting for Prophecy of Telor to arrive. I am really hoping it's better than this one! Hopefully it will arrive soon and I can go through it all and detail and see what I think.

[@1000jjwalker]

Half-orc???

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

You could probably get away with saying the bard is a half orc. I feel like having so many half-orcs throughout the campaign seem a bit odd.

[@jeanlucgatoh]

🔥

[@zombiedad]

Whoo! Spoilers! lol. Great video ABNB. Thanks. Typical Orkist Narrative. lol. But I understand, imagine if the lore suddenly changed and xenomorphs or tyranids aren’t all bad and some freedom fighters. ❤

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I just don't think it's the right move for HeroQuest. Also, I think it opens cans of worms that needs to be handled with the kind of care that HeroQuest doesn't have the design space to allow.

[@Tabletop_Epics]

The most horrible thing about this is that people will still buy it for the miniatures and dice and that sale will be seen as a reward for the writer's shite job. Nothing like boosting garbage, "Talent" for gaming accessories. I'm returning mine to Amazon. Glad I watched this before opening the box. Thank you for the review.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

I'm glad you found the video useful.

[@mattwoolrich5313]

Not much for the bard to be truthful like the creatures again some of the quests look interesting but like you tell some text rewrites. Don’t think I will be getting this expansion set

[@captcorajus]

I would have liked to watch this video but we get it you don't like the good orc bard.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Yeah, that guy’s the worst.

[@christopherjakel1049]

Honestly, all of the Mythic Teir books are clunky and felt just kinda thrown together. The writting isn't particularly good. I imagine a big part of that is trying to limit themselves to the standard font size and relative page count of the quest books. Beyond that I wholey beleive AH/Hasbro were counting on nothing more than the nostalgia factor for sales.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

It's a shame the quest wasn't a little tighter. Some good ideas got wasted here.

[@needfoolthings]

I do not want any of my group play that bard. I refuse to have that miniature on my board or in my home or anyone's home and will not let my group know it exists. If they learn of it, I shall look for a different group that likes rum and cheese and Heroquest. Or Uno. I'd rather play Uno than have anybody touch that bard.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

Ha. It's a hard line, but I'm not going to argue it.

[@captaincanuck6738]

An Orc bard is absolutely ridiculous. That being said, I never liked modern day fantasy writing that seems to think evil needs to be justified.

[@teaandtoys]

@captaincanuck6738 yeah that's the same with so many things these days most major villains

[@Kicker1981]

Spirit Queen's Torment is very poorly written. I'm a Mythic Tier backer, and I immediately noticed how inferior it was compared to Prophecy of Telor, which was written by Stephen Baker, the father of HeroQuest. Like you, I was highly disappointed with this quest book.

[@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring]

My Prophecy of Telor still hasn't arrived. I am expecting much more from that one than this one.