Hey Guys, I've Got A Great Idea, Hear Me Out...

The KZbin channel, Watcher, made a giant oopsie daisy last week when they announced they were pulling all their content from KZbin and putting it behind a paywall - their own bespoke streaming service. The internet lost its mind and many claim they ruined their careers. I have a different take, and decided to share my thoughts.

[@DeltaDemon1]

6$ IS nothing but 6$ times the hundreds of channels I watch (I counted), that is not nothing.

[@prottentogo]

Yep. And it's really weird that something this obvoius needs to be pointed out.

[@joescott-tmi]

Right. None of this happens in a vacuum.

[@beerkiller]

Never heard of these guys. Probably not worth wasting my beer money on.

[@landgsmith]

@@beerkiller Never heard of them, either. I tend to sub to channels that have WAAAY less than a millions subs...Joe being a rare exception. I am more interested in niche subjects that 99% of folks don't know about, much less care about.

[@Alex-js5lg]

It's like the high school teacher that would say, "it's only an hour of homework." Yes, times four classes, and I work tonight.

[@TimothyCollins]

Here is the thing that made me angry about this They have a Patreon. They were getting money from 13,000 members of it. It has a $5/month plan. If they wanted to encourage people to give them money, then they had a platform existing. Instead they wanted to keep the Patreon AND add this other subscription service I mean... Netflix doesn't have a Patreon. They had to make a choice - be a streaming service and make money from that and drop the Patreon. Or keep the Patreon and be a youtuber. You can't do both without being seen as greedy. They could, of course, simple offer a new tier to their Patreon and say "Hey, if you wanna see episodes of this new show XYZ then sign up for our $7/month Patreon tier since we will be releasing it exclusively on that!"

[@joescott-tmi]

Yeah, I failed to mention that, they do have a massive Patreon following and they didn't offer the new platform to them as a perk, which was a huge mistake. They have reversed course on that though, I believe, and now offer membership on the streaming service as a perk.

[@HorusHawks]

Their patreon supporters are the ones that really got screwed over in the initial proposal. They’ve never really promoted the patreon, and the people were there mainly as supporters, and not for anything they got out of it. And that’s probably why they have such a low number of patrons. They don’t have over 13k paying patrons, they only have around (only, lol) 5,800. Prior to this they had over 6k, and less than 12k total members. That number has bumped up over the last week just because people have been joining to read the posts they were making on that platform. So while 5,800 paid members is nothing to sneeze at, it’s still not as high as people are reporting. I think their best move would’ve been to expand their patreon and advertise it more. That way they wouldn’t be left holding this Vimeo streamer, which had to be a significant outlay of cash up front, and now they can’t just drop it, even if it’s really unpopular. I’ve always loved these guys, but this all left me with a weird taste in my mouth and I can’t watch their old videos without a weird feeling. Hopefully this sorts out for them, and they haven’t done irreparable damage to their brand…although I feel that’s wishful thinking at this point in time.

[@lisaseverance6785]

From what I understood from some roasting patreon comments I saw, they used to get the episodes early and got to submit questions for the debrief after the episodes aired. And they did have a large patreon. But when they decided to do this, they changed their patreon to just be for their podcast. They were being accused of false advertising and lost a lot of members. Then asked the patreon to pay again to get what they were already paying for.

[@kelandryyemrot1387]

They could have just released videos early on their patreon or patreon exclusive videos too. Surely that has to cost less and be easier to run...

[@squirlmy]

??????? This hilarious thing about this take, is that Netflix started as a DVD rental business, which they only ceased last year, after 25 years. whine: :Netflix should either never gotten into the streaming service business, or else stopped renting DVDs, how dare they do both!" But that's more obviously a dumb take. Especially since they were a public company making millions of dollars when they jumped into streaming. Perhaps Watcher should have presented a plan to leave Patreon to appease people like you, but, that would lose them a lot of money, while their experimenting with this new. Perhaps their streaming service would be more expensive, if not for Patreon support. Perhaps it will collapse, they are taking a huge risk with this, so it makes sense to have a fallback, something stable and proven, no matter how small, to hold onto while they make a transition. Patreon is a donation site after all, not a replacement for KZbin. Frankly, KZbin is a cesspool and I bet a lot of criticism come from jealous competitors. I have never watched "The Watchers", and of course haven't seen any of the criticisms because I don't care. All I know is the KZbin is evil, and anyone leaving them for an alternative, I wish them luck.

[@agiel7791]

As someone who supported the boys since before they created Watcher and followed them from BF, you pretty much hit it on the head. They have a massive Patreon as well, and a lot of us, including me, canceled our support there in protest because they missed not only that $6 is more than some u.s. viewers could afford, but also that many of the international fans would've been completely screwed by the exchange rate. They made a lot of missteps. They'd hyped up the announcement as something exciting for a few weeks, and for them it probably was, but for us it kinda came across as a shocking slap in the face. What they ended up going with satisfied most of the fans, and had they done that initially, there probably wouldn't have been much of a backlash.

[@kraigpearlman3283]

a nuanced opinion that expresses critical thinking in a you-tube video? preposterous!

[@mr.boomguy]

First time here? That's what Joe does

[@bradylewis9698]

Must be new to the channel.

[@jamesquinn2759]

​@@mr.boomguyFirst time reading sarcasm? That's what it looks like.

[@squirlmy]

@@jamesquinn2759 hey, you made a sarcastic remark about reading sarcasm! hmmm, does that also qualify as irony?

[@mr.boomguy]

@@jamesquinn2759 I just asked with no reply. If it was, he could say so

[@lucidmoses]

They also made the mistake of thinking that because they wanted to do new and different things that their audience therefor wants to see that new and different thing. It's not that uncommon for companies/channels to believe they can force their users into 'the new thing' just because the companies/channels thinks it's good. Personally I think it's because channels start to lump people into a category of 'viewer' and think less about the complexity of all the individual people.

[@joescott-tmi]

True, true. A lot of their comments were saying just that - that they (the audience) wasn't clamoring for higher production value, they wanted more of their camaraderie and personalities.

[@lucidmoses]

@@joescott-tmi This must be troublesome for you. Trying to convert a 'science channel' to an 'arts channel' has got to be about the hardest conversion there is. That's why I support the TMI channel. It's good to have an outlet so You don't end up collapsing the 'science channel' by spamming it. Good luck man.

[@Eeda01]

@@lucidmoseswait, joe wants to convert his channel from science to arts? When has he said that?

[@lucidmoses]

@@Eeda01 Well, Want's to and Will are two different things. He talks about it a lot so I'm guessing your new to the channel. In fact that's where the Skits come from.

[@apathybronson]

Which is (imo) ironically the same type of thinking that ruined Buzzfeed. They forgot that people mainly come for the people. Not for the gold leaf.

[@NewMateo]

I mean....imho they did kinda do it for greed. Their ceo was and still is pushing a new show no one wants to watch which is him flying around the world and eating expensive food in expensive places.

[@ElJefeS4]

To be fair, that was his schtick back in the buzzfeed days.

[@NewMateo]

@@ElJefeS4 I suppose I just find it rich to say how you have no cash to do the things you "want" and the thing involves Steven travelling the world with his buddies - that and frankly most of the people who followed watcher did it for Shane / Ryans dynamic - which shows was literally a room with a handful of props and yellow / blue text on a black background. The low budget stuff.

[@Emot10ns]

I agree that they were greedy. All that bullshit about being free or creative freedom is just not true, these guys have had tons of sponsors and their content is super family friendly. Everything they talk about is tame and has been talked about for years by other KZbinrs, they were not out here making controversial content and I doubt any sponsors would stop them from trying unless they wanted to talk about some deplorable shit. I've seen much darker KZbin video topics than anything they've ever posted, and it's still monetized.

[@apathybronson]

​@@ElJefeS4But Buzzfeed had VC money. They want to have teenagers pocket money money. Teenagers won't want to see this. VCs would probably love the show.

[@KIskra]

Many of us stopped paying for cable because eventually $100 seemed excessive. I don't mind ads or sponsorship ads on podcasts or KZbin because people deserve to make money for their work. Just a lot of us can't afford $5-10 for 1 show every month

[@EinsteinsHair]

You only paid $100 for cable? But I also get internet through my cable company. I'm planning to cut back to internet only, since I mostly stream anyway. I also cannot imagine paying for one show. I get Netflix, and sometimes debate whether it is worth the money. A huge Star Trek fan, but still have not signed up for Paramount+.

[@sunshine3914]

I refuse to pay for tv or movies… there were only two shows that were ever worth the ads.

[@amylsmith]

In relation to 12:30, I think it speaks volumes of your channel, your personality and your way of discussing a range of topics, that I watch ALL your videos. I'm dyscalculic, and I struggle with a lot of mathematical and scientific topics (finding them hard to understand/inaccessible), but the way you talk about things is always in such an excited and curious way that makes me excited and curious to learn more. So thank YOU for being you!

[@yondie491]

FWIW the phrasing of Hanlon's Razor is "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." So yeah, correct word. And you rock too!

[@BrightBlueJim]

I heard it as "incompetence". This doesn't mean you're stupid, but that you are not properly trained or experienced in the task you're trying to do.

[@Akursedtime]

I do believe they are mishandling their finances in some form. Rather than attempt to make a new platform to get more money, a financial advisor or manager would have sufficed. Its just as expensive to maintain a streaming service and I worry about their future.

[@apathybronson]

They have a bloated staff and bloated personal expenses, needlessly living in one of the most expensive areas in the world.

[@sunshine3914]

The boys come from wealth, sometimes you have to learn the hard way.

[@benjaminmatheny6683]

My impression of the Watcher debacle was that they did it for the money, but not out of greed. They have a large team, in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and they scaled up to it very quickly. I suspect that they over hired based on their early growth rate, and now have too many people. So going for more money to cover payroll rather than cut personnel.

[@TimothyCollins]

Which, basically, was the weak point of Buzzfeed. It grew too fast, hired more people than it could handle, set up studios in expensive spots.... and imploded. All three of them are not stupid and they lived through watching Buzzfeed make that mistake. I'd have thought they could learn something.

[@logansmith2703]

That plus the stupidly high production quality. Unsolved fans, which is the core of their fantasy, are fine with REALLY low quality. Their personalities are why anybody watched it in the first place.

[@royalcities]

Exactly. Plus how are they going to fund stevens new show where he travels the world and eats expensive food that no one wants to watch? That costs $.

[@mr.boomguy]

​@@TimothyCollins Sometimes, Ceo's don't learn from their experiences too. And it shows

[@TimothyCollins]

@mr.boomguy the thing that strikes me... what might have happened if they had said "hey, sign up to our new oatreon tier at $6 per month! Our current shows will remain ad supported on youtube but new shows will be on oatrron!" I predict they'd have immediately turned the current crop of $5/month subs into $6/month ones, gotten the extra money, kept their current subs and had the freedom they want. And people would have been happy.

[@Kubose]

The whole "we'll make our own platform" thing never goes the way creators want it to (RoosterTeeth being my best example), the vast majority just aren't going to incorporate another paid (or even free) service to their content rotations. I pay for KZbin premium because I find ads very annoying, if someone is gonna move their whole content library and all future content to a totally different, new paid site, they will just leave my content rotation. Now if they offer additional stuff, such as extended content or exclusive podcasts or whatever, I might go out of my way to pay for that (I paid for RoosterTeeth's premium website sub for years because videos dropped early, weren't censored, and there were a few exclusive shows that I liked), but yeah if the feeling is that you are taking content away rather than offering additional content at a premium, aint no way. Also I know from experience with RoosterTeeth that these alternative "KZbin" platforms end up just being KZbin but worse, you REALLY gotta love someones content to stomach paying for a worse version of a free thing that you also already use every day for every other video you watch. Not to mention that it probably won't have a mobile app, or if it does it'll be worse, and it might not have all the stuff we take for granted like background playback. KZbin is like this magic thing that always works, but hosting videos on your own website is no simple task, especially when you aren't a trillion dollar company.

[@yensid4294]

The idea that $6 or $4 or whatever a month is affordable kind of misses the point that it adds up when you're expected to give that amount or more to multiple content creators across multiple platforms. Then it starts getting expensive & inconvenient. Right now 3 of the streaming platforms we've had for quite a while have begun running limited ads even tho they are paid subscriptions. Wtf. I find myself missing cable at this point. At least I could watch a large number of network tv shows & movies in real time & record them if I wanted to skip the commercials. Streaming also seems geared to smaller screens(phones & tablets) for the most part. What about all those HD big screen TVs? The video quality is definitely lacking in streaming.

[@squirlmy]

this is change is a bubble bursting. The stockholders used to fund big streaming services for the potential audience that they could get in the future, and Covid years sorta showed the maximum audience and viewing numbers. Now that those numbers are decreasing, the stockholders are looking for what profit they can make from the audience they have presently, not potential growth. Hopefully something new will come along, just like streaming took over cable.

[@-thud-]

Exactly.

[@mebreevee1997]

I miss the ghoul boys but I don’t want to support what they did. Literally just one community poll could have helped. The issue stands in the fact that they didn’t consider the many of their long time fans that got them to where they were. They didn’t engage with their audience at all about this decision. It felt disingenuous when they spoke, like they didn’t care about those of us who couldn’t pay. My issue with it was the tonedeafness of that announcement, the fact their website was broken on day one, and that they never discussed it with their audience prior or mentioned it before now. It felt like they couldn’t care less about what their audience wanted, and what was good for them.

[@joescott-tmi]

Yeah, all good points. I can say all day that I get their motivation but they went about it in ALL the wrong ways.

[@mebreevee1997]

@@joescott-tmi ❤️ Yep! I’m not one to criticize motivations, so long as it does not inadvertently hurt others. Heck, I started my masters program for counseling out of spite. Ended up loving it, but, my initial motivation was solely to prove my mother wrong! Lol.

[@joescott-tmi]

hehe, hey, sometimes spite works. Just look at the Space Race.

[@mebreevee1997]

@@joescott-tmi XD you’re right!

[@blanktom6049]

I know nothing about this stuff, but my first thought is... if you're going to ditch youtube and start your own streaming service - how do you attract new viewers? You're going to initially bring a certain number of people over, but after time people will start dropping out. Then how do you bring in new viewers/customers to take their place? The youtube algorithm, for what it's worth, is basically free advertisement.

[@petraw9792]

Not only does the YT algorithm seem to work for them. People shared and recommended their videos. But you can only do that if they are public.

[@joeyhoy1995]

They were going to release season premiere episodes on KZbin and then the rest of the episodes were exclusive to the service.

[@lucidmoses]

Music industry is a good example. Bands for sure can make music for themselves. That works. But if they change their style then that's the end of the band, like 99% of the time.

[@braingasim]

Love the Shirt! Buy 9 spatulas and get the 10th one for just 1 penny!!

[@joescott-tmi]

“And what better way to say, ‘I love you’ than with the gift of a spatula?”

[@DeltaDemon1]

@@joescott-tmi Spatula City! For all your spatula needs!

[@kennyleeyoung]

I was literally announcing "SPATULA CITY... Spatula City...spatula city" this morning". This was the 3rd KZbin video I watched today, and I had a mini freak out when I saw the shirt.

[@blabbotheastronaut]

next video’s shirt is from “Wheel of Fish”???

[@curtislindsey1736]

Never thought I'd see Joe make a reaction video to Watcher😂 Love both channels!

[@joescott-tmi]

Does this qualify as a reaction video?

[@curtislindsey1736]

@@joescott-tmi a reaction to everyone else's reaction??😂

[@joescott-tmi]

I should do a reaction video to this reaction video on other people's reactions to other reaction videos.

[@curtislindsey1736]

@@joescott-tmiI'd watch that

[@EinsteinsHair]

I had never heard of that channel. Think of all the free advertising they're getting!

[@Rena.anerev]

It's not just that 6 dollars is a lot for young college people. Americans sometimes forget that not everyone lives in the US and has US wage.

[@stohelit57]

Absolutely. One fan commented that the $6 USD is half of the monthly income in her country.

[@pancakesandbacon2567]

I don't blame anyone for trying to make more money for the work they do without oversite from a company that imposes their own arbitrary form of cencorship or monitization. The public will either support what you do or not. There are KZbin channels I love but I will survive nomatter who decides to pull the plug. That said, I do wish there was a better KZbin competitor that is content creator friendly and doesn't oppressivly beat down viewers with ads.

[@pikaziu]

I'm a fan of watcher and it was a bit shocking when that first video came out. I hope that they stick to what they said in the apology. Also liked your point of view of this situation!

[@robertburgman4958]

Thanks Joe, I really like your TMI’s. You’re still my favorite YT-er 😊

[@j4k3l3wi55]

Louis Rossman created an app to subscribe to creators irrelevant of the platforms they are on. This will allow you to keep track of the creators you like even if they or their videos get deplatformed on any single site due to whatever reasons; giving you control over what you can or not follow.

[@LoveLamp757]

Joe has a spatula city shirt!? Yooooooooo! As a 1989 baby I need one UHF is a cinematic masterpiece

[@SnarkNSass]

Puppet History was how I found them... Love that show 😍 ✌🏻😎

[@NickDusting]

I don't see any issue in a group changing how they present their content... I do see an issue in removing free content for "artistic freedom".

[@erikah5611]

You and Watcher are two of my favorite channels so worlds colliding here. :) There’s one thing I want to point out here and that’s if you read their fan comments you see the majority of them say they don’t want high production value, they watch for the chemistry between Ryan and Shane. If creators want to make money from something, they have to make something people want to buy. If they want to make something out of strong artistic desire, then that’s a passion project. Those two things don’t always overlap.

[@jeremyphillips7827]

OMG, I can't believe you have a Spatula City T-shirt! That cracked me up before you even started speaking. Love it!

[@LoveLamp757]

Someone else recognized it! Hello bröõthr

[@stohelit57]

One point that several people made was that they have 2 shows that are just Ryan and Shane reading viewer submitted stories. They actually put out a request for more stories last month. Imagine submitting a story to your favorite creators and then finding out that you have to pay to see if they read yours.

[@cslivestockllc138]

Just a few years ago I was like “it’s an original on a streaming platform, it HAS to be good!” Now I have one subscription to one platform, Max. I’m about to cancel that …. Streaming has gotten so out of hand.

[@melanieramey-pl4ih]

I LOVE you, Joe! You can objectively look at something and give great feedback. And there is this kindness and optimism behind all your videos that just lifts my spirits. You really are an amazing person!!!

[@AlexandreMS71]

Never heard of these people until now and I will remain ignorant about, thanx.

[@Andrew-zq3ip]

Joe, you're such a real dude. That's why I'm here for anything you do.

[@iandennis1]

Great perspective here. I see a lot of people who get big on you tube and then think they can monetize that either as in this case but also perhaps creating an App and charging for that. The facts in the real world is people don’t have unlimited cash to sign up to everything and have to decide which platforms if any to choose from. Or to hop from one to another for a month or two to binge a beloved show and back again.

[@oonis.aucoix]

They dang near pulled an illuminaughtii. Fully despised now, in the space of a few milliseconds

[@TheJAMF]

Yeah, when you "grandfathered" in on Max for 4$ a month, or have content like Netflix or Disney, 6$ for a single channel is not value for money. They did the calculations, but didn't know their market.

[@dainaali1303]

At Amazon, they have a concept called 1 way door and 2 way door. Watcher took their main business model and shift it with a 1 way door strategy. Massive decisions should always be 2 ways doors that can be back tracked without hurting the man business model. If research was done, a huge factor should have been app fatigue. Clearly artists and not business experts, or they hired really dumb consultants. This will be a case study for years to come.

[@EinsteinsHair]

At Amazon they have a concept called, sign everyone up for Prime. I understand having to decline Prime twice for Every Order! But eventually there was no "No Thanks" button the second time. They would say, "We're going to sign you up for Prime!" I doubted that would happen without my clicking "Yes." But I had to take them at their word. I would close the browser and try to order a month later. Finally, I deleted all my payment methods.

[@organicgrains]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate this video so much Joe, you're wonderful. They never said they were going to remove their existing content from KZbin, they even commented that fact after the video release. However, it's wonderful to hear something in defense of the guys. I'm unsure why people always assume that other's actions are malicious.

[@AammaK]

I agree with a lot you said. I somehow missed this entire drama so far and only heard about it after they were already apologizing. I understand wanting to do bigger things, I wholeheartedly understand needing to pay your staff (which is a massive blind spot for a large portion of audiences still stuck on the idea of self made lone youtubers in their rooms talking to a camera. Most successful channels today do not work like that, and that's not only okay, but incredibly cool for so many to get to do their own thing while offering jobs and all that comes with independent media as a job - insofar you can say so while counting in youtube as a company and the whole advertisement industry. I also understand the longing for that independence and all the frustrations that are caused by those aspects of the platform and the evident monopoly on the sort of content it has enabled and organically developed. Now, where I think part of the uproar also stems from, is the idea of streaming services, those huge companies that first come to mind, and all the connotations they hold in our understanding. The impression an announcement like that gives is so easily "we think we are as important as those streaming services you pay for". It feels absurd and presumptuous as hell. In reality, behind-paywall content is already reality for lots of channels with memberships models or collaborations with third party platforms like you talked about here. Or, say, organizing online events and shows with one time ticket access for example. None of it is phrased as having developed each their own streaming services. As you said, we understand it as extra, and it doesn't operate in the same category as those big powerful companies like Netflix and the alike. We've for the most part overcome the inicial (honestly quite similar) scepticism and reluctancy that those paywalled extra content things also brought up at the time of their establishment as part of commercial online streaming. A lot of people still dislike paywalls in the context of youtube and other online communication and entertainment, but we get it. There would have been options. Groud funding an existing project with reasonable transparency for example. With that in mind, the idea of going rogue to the point of abandoning the site and having the nerve to expect overwhelming or even sufficient support for a whole platform of their own is beyond pompous. It's fascinating to me how little they had apparently thought this through. I've followed Ryan and Shane from before the creation of their own channel with Steven. Gradually leaving Buzzfeed wasn't necessarily a surprise after the successful examples of individual creators and groups (a group tbh, Try Guys to be exact) before them. Buzzfeed evidently never intended to be a jumping-off point for creators, and the general dislike and notoriety of Buzzfeed as a company (while still having respected and loved shows like that of Shane and Ryan's) for sure fueled the sympathy for creators who left it, which carried over as excitement for their independent futures and assured these creators and groups an existing audience waiting for them. And while experience in the goings on of a media company the scale of Buzzfeed showed as methodological and calculated - nontheless passionate and genuine - approach to making content on their own, so did probably the athmosphere of perpetual growth. To me, ultimately, this too at least partially stems from just that. The message of Watcher itself from the very start is (and what their channel description says to this day) that they intend to make "Television-caliber" content online. One of Buzzfeeds original sins was in my personal opinion that while they ended up having some notable impact on online culture and youtube itself, it never genuinely operated as ingroup operation, but a media company with wide range of less than mediocre content with an attitude of being better than the amateaurish private people content on mainstream youtube. That idea of looking down at KZbin and modern media in comparison to legacy media, television, conventional news organizations and so forth, is similarly present here. Once again, I understand wanting to go bigger and make greater things, but it's tragic to me how we still compare high quality online content to traditional TV. I don't think we're at that kind of place anymore in our world where online content needs to emulate TV or where TV is the high point of success for creators. If one of these channels with a small scale production company behind them actually ends up reaching a position comparable to TV or the top streaming platforms, we're no longer talking about independent online video at all. That kind of support will not carry over, because it's a fundamental betrayal of the online audience. Why be here if you think this is not good enough or large enough to make big awasome things? How come so many other channels manage to make awesome "TV-caliber" things without needing to leave behind KZbin for some outrageously impropable larger income like they seemed to have expected?

[@ianlacey]

The algorithm is a new manifestation of an old principle. 20 years or so working creatively before algorithms were a thing, there was almost always someone influencing the income who had opinions about what should be done. I have witnessed this from producers and studio owners and managers. It has also been true since way before algorithms that large companies applied consistent economic principles that drove creativity into narrow, predictable channels, which is why I spent much of the 90s working on Disney DVD sequels. I can tell you that if we strayed too much from the formula, we would have to do things over. We were told that Michael Eisner personally insisted the studio reanimate the opening to Lion King 2 so that it was more like the first movie, in that case he and the corporate vision served the purpose of the algorithm. There was a slim chance you could find someone who can provide/secure money for a project that had the same taste or valuers as you as a creator (sounds like that is what you have found in Nebula Joe), but there would also be a small percentage of KZbin contributors who's creative intent aligns with the algorithm. That is being in the right place at the right time, and is a precious thing to find.

[@TheIronWaffle]

Not sure which I love more: the obscure Weird Al shirt from my favorite of his albums… or that you’re holding a “real” mic like TikTokkkkkkkers hold lavelier mics. Oh, and the content itself.

[@michellef1847]

When I was in college, I was scrounging to buy a 79-cent bean burrito from taco smell... Yeah, I'm old.😅

[@poorlyproducedcontent2230]

Ive been a huge fan of the ghoul boys since buzzfeed and immediately followed them over to watcher. I can afford 6$ a month, and have a subscription to the few big streamers plus youtube premium, I was a little more understanding at first. What made me think it was a sort of scummy move was the idea that, they were fully aware that they have people who pay 25-50 dollars a month on their patreon to willingly support their content. This money is payed to show support for the videos and show appreciation. There was a clear intent to try to make their most loyal fans pay MORE money. Instead of closing the patreon. Instead of giving them a free membership (which the did now thankfully) their first very clear and very intentional move was to tell these loyal paying fans. "Hey, all the early uploads, all the extra behind the scene content, all videos that you are currently choosing to give us money to produce, you need to give us money on this other platform to watch now. And we've decided that all the money you give us on patreon is to support our podcast now, instead of what you were originally paying to support." That is what made me think it was a very greedy move, it was either greed or extreme brainrot enducing hubris.

[@willbates2174]

Dropout is $5, and you get way, way, way more value out of Dropout.

[@csebesta84]

I think living in LA makes people delusional. I read on another video that one of the guys just spent $50K on his wedding venue. Just the venue.

[@joyl7842]

The worst thing about paywalls is that it's infested journalism. We need a new word for that, cause journalism is supposed to be unbiased.

[@Mr_NB628]

Unfortunately, another take or viewpoint on this is that it’s just going to foster pirating. People that were getting it for free are just going to torrent it for free.

[@eldredsashes]

I think I watch about 90% of your content. If a video you publish doesn't interest me, I pass and wait for the next one. I love your t-shirt; makes me want to go on a Spatula City run.

[@joescott-tmi]

Might be my new favorite shirt. 😄

[@KarlWitsman]

Good points, Mr. Scott. I know that myself I would like to do a program about psychological therapy, having been a counselor for many years before retiring. But KZbin will supposedly block or penalize my channel once I post the episode on crisis counseling because the word suic1de is not allowed. Believe me, nobody is going to commit that act just because they hear the word on YT, which I'd explain in the video, but you'd never see that episode, so I guess it doesn't matter. So I see where the Watcher guys are coming from on that front. The trouble I had is that I am only interested in two of their shows and I would not want to pay for all the other shows that their network does. On YT, I can easily ignore those shows.

[@fyerr]

That thumbnail is wild… imagine Joe in Watcher

[@garywatson3778]

Heh... Spatula City... the most underrated commercial on UHF television.

[@colin-nekritz]

It was how they did it Joe, not that they did it.

[@gracegomez4595]

I never thought these two channels would collide 😂

[@danielleoliver1734]

Slightly random question, is it better for you financially if I watch your content on you tube or nebula? I have nebula and will use it sometimes but I primarily watch content on KZbin

[@greghohensee4067]

"What better way to say 'i love you' than with a spatula"

[@godisfake78]

I loved watching Ryan and Shane when they were doing BuzzFeed unsolved it was wonderful. And then they went and did their own thing and it really wasn't my style and they tried to recreating the ghost files and unsolved but its not same.

[@djstraylight]

I've never heard of Watcher and sounds like I'm glad they never stole my attention.

[@jasondalaba3381]

Hey Joe, (lol), I've been a fan of the Watcher crew since BuzzFeed and honestly didn't see a problem with them launching their own thing. I get how putting up a paywall garnered this reaction, I mean I really didn't want another streaming service to manage, but I feel like this step was taken with good intentions and just terrible execution. That said, I love your work, and I look forward to your material each week. Keep it up, and keep on keepin' on with what you do!

[@acrazydurian]

i like the freedom you guys got on Nebula, i have been a member for a few years now. The only thing i dont like on that platform is the lack of comments/voting system to call out BS when BS occurs. People make mistakes, intentionally or not. A platform thats educational-biased needs to have a BS-ometer.

[@CaseyW491]

Glad youre covering this. I love these guys.

[@dwftube]

I love this channel - it's one of my most watched. But if Joe said he was going to do what watcher did, I would be disappointed, but not bitter, or resentful. Anyone has the right to run their business in a way that is most profitable for them. As for the Watcher guys wanting to take all their content with them - why not? It's their content - though I can't help thinking there was an element of guerilla marketing to that - I suspect they knew they'd roll it back -after all leaving all their stuff on here will create subscribers.. They want to grow in a way they can't on YT - that's their choice and their risk.

[@zxuiji]

I think the resolution to the problem is already on YT partially. In addition of their own channels they should group together on particular channels dedicated to particular kinds of content. So for example a channel for skits could be made then various creators would upload their skits to not just their own channel but also the skits channel. The views for their skits is the portion of the skit's channel income that they'd get. They can serve both kinds of viewers without restricting their own channels to specific kinds of content.

[@terrorizingtheturbine]

They did the right thing and that’s all you can ask for. Well said Joe. For what it’s worth, I watch both channels because I like the creators/ hosts. I’ll probably watch almost anything you create because the people keep me coming back for more. To many more years of both channels 🍻

[@davecahyo]

I never heard about them and I honestly thought you're gonna make a serious announcement based on your thumbnail 😂

[@TheCamo4000]

I think I prefer this channel to the original- just being able to speak about things without censoring or trying to satisfy the algorithm

[@victoru.9808]

I haven't heard about those watchers at all. But it was interesting to listen to Joe's thoughts on that topic.

[@rachelmiller4949]

I appreciate your point of view on this! KZbinrs be like: the algorithm is so dumb and I don’t know how to make more money on my videos. KZbinrs also be like: oMg ThEy ArE lEaViNg YoUtUbE tO mAkE mOrE mOnEy ElSeWhErE tHeY aRe SoOo GrEeDy!!! My initial reaction was that this is their content and they are free to distribute it however they like. I as the consumer have the freedom to pay or not. If I choose to go without, that’s a bummer for sure but it’s not like there aren’t ♾️ other sources of entertainment in the world. Plus all their old buzzfeed vids are still up and they are solid gold 🤌. Anyway, I appreciate the fact that they recognize how badly they stepped in it, apologized and reversed course. Constructive criticism on their video: they did spend the majority of the video essentially taking a dump on KZbin as a platform and saying this was the “only way” for them to stay afloat. No, dears. You can play the game and get paid, swallowing your pride along the way. Serious question: what was the benefit of their Patreon? Couldn’t they have been “more creative” there? I’m not a member so I truly don’t know what any of their patrons were getting for their money. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. And btw Joe your shirt rocks 📺

[@SashaHighsmith]

Paid $25 for Nebula only to find out you have you have to pay more for the exclusive content, which was the whole reason for signing up to begin with. All the plugs for Nebula didn’t say anything about that.

[@brentshinn1060]

Joe I gotta give you mad props for your objectivity . I'm a fan of Ryan and Shane n as mad as I was that they were double paywalling fans. I was equally upset that seemingly every commentary KZbinr n their mama was putting out hate videos calling em greedy and getting the facts jumbled.

[@Nefville]

Its amazing to me they didn't vet this with their audience first. I heard their Patreon was even more upset than the YT comments. There's a clear distinction and divide between a creator and the viewer where creators share absolutely nothing of the behind the scenes yet still somehow expect everyone to know what is going on and the viewers have no idea what a creator does apart from presented videos. Want to avoid mistakes like Watchers? Talk to your audience. They're the ones who are interested in your videos, watch them, bring in advertisers and ultimately pay the bills. A successful channel is NOT a one-way street.

[@mostlyvoid.partiallystars]

Lizzie Bennet Diaries proved “shows” could be done on KZbin

[@sunshine3914]

I’m old & haven’t had the patience to watch more than 30 minutes of anything in the last 44 years, but I consider Puppet History a masterpiece… it’s just hard to believe that it takes more than 4 people to produce their other stuff.

[@HansMilling]

Why doesn't Nebula offer a cheaper version with ads and a more expensive without?

[@TriteHexagon]

About the audience thing - what do you do if your audience just refuses to show up? I wrote a novel and put my heart (and lots of money) into it, and basically no one read it. Now my dilemma is whether to keep doing it for myself, and continue to be depressed (because for me a book no one reads is kinda pointless), or just give up and do one of the other thousand things I like to do?

[@185MDE]

If Buzzfeed was Rome, Watcher was the Ottomans.

[@finlandtaipan4454]

I subscribed to Nebula earlier bcause it was affordable and had many of my favorite content providers. But I was never able to watch a HD episode without buffering breaks. Ok, I could have downloaded the video ahead of time but I don't really pre-plan for entertainment that way. So I didn't renew. Last year, I got a new computer with a graphics card and upgraded my internet to 1G so I might give Spatula another try. Only I'm too busy to watch a lot of long form video content.

[@ktr7542]

I know I’m just one person, but I watch everything you put out. I appreciate your “art”.

[@armynation31B5V5P]

Thank you Joe for sharing with us fans on this topic.

[@mistyjetter1196]

I cant tell you how many times ive watched the video with the Damascus goat, hilarious 😂!

[@mildsoup8978]

The Channel Watcher sounds like a Call of Cthulhu character

[@robertbe2520]

Very interesting show and perspective! Thanks.

[@skuzzernaut]

Speaking of Nebula... I need to resign up for it, u got a discount code??

[@anonymoose9315]

I agree with your opinion, that they are more artistic guys and wanted creative freedom. I used to watch anything that came from Critical Role, I liked them for what they were doing especially campaign 1. It was all them but since right around the first half of campaign 2 it has been more of them satisfying everyone and not their artistry. There has been a steep dive downward. I also am an avid fan of Friday Night Tights. They have been doing the same thing they have always done and have had a loyal base and a growing audience since the start. Nothing has changed and it’s always been about their core.

[@knaz7468]

Has anyone ever thought to use the KZbin API to just make a Netflix like browser interface for a user? Like just show all their subscriptions and latest videos from creators they want to see? Then one band can be "algorithm" stuff. Seems trivial actually.

[@kayakMike1000]

Intense desire is what most would call GREED, Joe.

[@antoniovillacci9930]

Joe you one of the best. I admire your laid back and honest approach to your topics and narrative. You are the standard that most you tubers should adopt. Thank you so much

[@phoebeslater8216]

With the streaming fatigue thing I’ve gone back to dvds as they’re just so great and reliable

[@NoWay1969]

Could they not look at their paid subscriber base on KZbin and get a fairly decent idea about how many people were willing to pay to watch them? Also, in addition to Nebula, there's LMG's Floatplane.

[@JohnBainbridge0]

One thing I'm wondering - do they really need a 25 person team? I worked at a co-op cafe for a while and everyone wanted to hire all their friends to work there, to the point that we had almost as many employees as we had shifts. That left everyone working one or two days a week and that's just not enough to cover living costs. I understand the urge to grow, but you have to be able to support that growth.

[@CaseyW491]

Well done, Joe. Im glad youre as lucid as can be regarding this whole thing.

[@psychedelliaMisthoX]

i see that penguinz0 video was fully watched, a man of culture i see.

[@dantennison1153]

Right on.

[@Isabelb]

As someone who subscribes to Nebula, I also have reached streaming fatigue. I like Nebula a lot! Not complaining.

[@PaulADAigle]

I like you. I'm a follower. I just can't get back on Nebula, because my trial's up and I am broker than broke. I like your stuff, and I'd follow you anywhere that's free.

[@chillpillology]

don’t know them or their work, but it strikes me as some guys that had a strong niche following, and confused that with being “something huge”. its bound to happen when non business people enter business, which youtube et al affords the masses. Another Ample Hills ice cream?

[@dun8410]

I always wondered where they went after BuzzFeed

[@andrewbrown6522]

Im half expecting joes shirt to magically turn into a hammer and sickle.

[@anonymousrex5207]

People keep forgetting that a business needs to make money to keep growing and there is nothing wrong with wanting to make more money doing whatever your business does. I feel if you can't afford $6 per month, then you need to take a look at what exactly you are spending money on. If you don't want to pay, then don't...but if you can't pay $6 per month on something, then you probably shouldn't be worried about streaming services in general as you need to prioritize your income on other things. I was a starving college student once so I get why people may be short on cash, but I'm old and that was before streaming existed (I had a Blockbuster membership instead of cable because it was cheaper to rent movies to occupy my free time).

[@epilz1978]

I'm not here for the tea. I just missed your Monday video and am happy to see you. 🙂

[@bradtravis2440]

The first thing to do when a company is struggling is 'trim the fat' and focus on the core of what made you a success in the first place. Not take on lots more 'fat' that hasn't been market researched, and pay for it off the backs of fans with less money than you have. Do they 'need' 25 staff? Do they 'need' a studio in Hollywood? Do they need to produce too many spin-off videos that don't get as many views? I'd start trimming a lot of fat before offloading costs onto loyal fans that put you where you are in the first place. An inefficient, mismanaged bloated business model fueled by ambition (I don't want to say ego) is not the fans responsiblilty.