how to destroy your audience's trust

[@snakesandstones4252]

"You might as well have said 'goodbye poors' and moved along with your day" fucking got me.

[@planetaryray7119]

same!!

[@catsplat1272]

I thought she said wh0res 😭

[@solala1312]

I mean it is basically that. I can not afford another subscription

[@supersucks]

Right! I would’ve respected him for being honest 😂

[@DocBree13]

Yep - that’s why I stayed unsubscribed after that apology

[@Conformist138]

Their biggest mistake, really, was mixing two very different messages. "We need to do this to save our production. We might have had to shut down entirely if we didn't do this." Really doesn't play well right next to, "We want to make bigger content! We want to bring in more people! We want to jetset around the globe to show you amazing things!" They needed to pick one and stick to it. No way to please everyone, but their competing messages didn't end up pleasing anyone.

[@reed8712]

totally agree, the mixing of the two made them BOTH feel disingenuous

[@tastyneck]

So many people were pointing that out because it's so obviously such a bad move. And, yet, no one on their team picked up on it? Or they just ignored them, thought people were too stupid, and/or they were blinded by their ego? Because if you wrote that into a script people would say it was a stupid plot point to even have in because it's so ridiculous.

[@kevinandorsusie]

Yes exactly this, it made the whole message read as "we are failing to properly manage funds internally, by making content outside of our financial means. Instead of fixing these internal issues, consulting our audience on what alternate streams of income they'd be willing to contribute to to widen our budget, or lowering the budget on certain productions so we're producing within our means, we instead decided to pass the buck onto you the viewer, without addressing our financial mismanagement. We (an incredibly small media company) want to make the TV quality high production content that _you deserve_ (and also didn't ask for), so long as you pay us $6. You're welcome."

[@sophienah4654]

Even so. At the end of the day. It's not the audience's duty to save their failing business because they've been mishandling their company's money. No one wants to be the bad guy and fire people or downsize but when you're a company and you misuse your income, it's the people who work for you that suffer. And them glossing over that still irks me

[@longlivedodos]

What I think really happened is these people just have very little business management sense. When they moved their content off of buzzfeed, they didn’t think about the fact that both Worth It and Unsolved were big production projects that they would have to fund without buzzfeed’s support. At the same time, I don’t think any of these guys know how to pivot from these big projects, because that’s what they are known for. So if they’re thinking “people won’t want to keep watching if we don’t jetset around the world doing amazing things,” they probably believe it’s necessary for the company. Don’t get me wrong, it’s stupid and I’m not defending them. But they aren’t like uniquely evil or anything, this is just what happens when you start a company with no business sense.

[@EviePontecorvo]

I have friend in finance and she's like "this is because they have too many employees" and like... they do.

[@cassinipanini]

and all those employees are family and friends so they feel like they CANT let go of any of them

[@Kirasfox]

​@@cassinipaninithey should, if they want to financially survive

[@mia-fu9nd]

@@cassinipaninithat’s their own fault. Don’t hire people if you can’t afford them

[@BØØTYP0UNDER666]

Seriously it’s why their stuff feels so inauthentic and over produced because why are there 15+ people credited in their videos of them just playing a videogame.

[@ironglaciers1988]

And this is why you don't hire too many employees, and you definitely don't hire all your friends and family. Economics 101.

[@Kazzyrith]

watched buzzfeed unsolved religiously. When the moved to be Watcher i straight up just....couldnt get into it. And im realizing its 100% because they prioritized their production value at the cost of being entertaining. I want (wheeze) back, not 4k cameras and 17 editors.

[@maddie.bolland.7]

YES!! This exactly 💜

[@dannimoment1776]

exactly this! like i don’t care about the production value- just give us a black screen with text again

[@luancosta199]

My favorite series of their by far is "are you scared" bc its literally just ryan narrating a creepypasta with cool illustrations to go along with it. Also the fact that they kinda moved away from horror/paranormal 😔 that was literally what tied it all together

[@b7kerravon]

Yes!

[@aubriem1944]

EXACTLYYYYY!! also, I feel like having cheaper production actually helped with the overall vibe of the show. if we wanted tv quality, we'd watch one of the many ghost hunting tv shows

[@tjrune3432]

It really is a head-scratcher to me that creators assume I watch a free entertainment service because I have money to spare. Some live in an entirely separate reality.

[@j.yang7]

yeah I'm just here to watch people talk about movies I haven't watched and books I haven't read, or the occasionally controversy like this

[@KingOfGaymes]

Especially Steven in his Tesla

[@tjrune3432]

@@j.yang7 If wi-fi wasn't part of my rent, I probably couldn't afford it haha! But yeah, KZbin entertainment is a destress time. I don't want to have to get out my wallet every time I watch.

[@LeapThroughTheSky]

I have money to spend on streaming services and have literally several, I do not want to add another. There's already too many.

[@kgal1298]

Jack's skit about this entire mess was on point "we forgot about the poors" lol

[@dianm0]

"I shoot in 4k, I should have a million followers. Are you entertaining?" Reminded me of Bianca del Río asking "What do you do successfully? Quickly"

[@nicoler5713]

Oh my god you right though. I was thinking of those guys who think they deserve a girlfriend just because they have money.

[@AnnekeOosterink]

@@nicoler5713 Or Nice Guys (TM) who claim to be nice and deserve a reward in the form of a human being for doing the bare minimum. It's always the same question with situations like this, what do you bring to the table? What is it you can do?

[@AmethystEyes]

They had 25 employees and not one of those employees was a decent financial planner.

[@arghleblarghle]

TWENTY FIVE? That is. A lot more employees than I would have expected???

[@Kirasfox]

Some youtubers aren't very smart with their money...not realizing how quickly it can go AND their content can dry up lol

[@spacewinter]

25? That's more than the H3 podcast. What are all those pple doing

[@flatwhiskers]

I’m guessing a lot of those 25 people are employees thanks to nepotism.

[@DeadKraken]

BUT they have 10 directors of photography, so they look very nice and cute while making their "gimme money so I don't have to fire my cousin or my friends pls" video.

[@scoutlaceharding]

It is craaazy that so many people said, "This doesn't align with my idea of Shane or the things he's said are his values. Therefore, this decision wasn't his." I get that it's painful to see one of your faves be hypocritical but that is some twisty logic.

[@cardboard2night]

I mean, it is funny how he's like "it is morally okay to still from the rich" and then he does this stupid thing, like what he expects??? Also, turns out his wife is also tone deaf despite all the woke preaching, defending the decision on Tumblr XD

[@annnee6818]

​@@cardboard2night when people become too rich and successful, they lose touch... that's what happened

[@0Clewi0]

@@annnee6818 like, I forgot the name of the old late night host, but damn he doesn't even realize how right wing he's (or just lie about it) after becoming rich.

[@greyscaleadaven]

@@cardboard2night Even the original clips I saw about his anticapitalist beliefs seemed kind of strangely worded. He's assuming people want to steal from the rich, meaning he sees them as people who are inclined to do that. It also almost comes across as sarcastic, or just a weird joke. Not really that genuine or serious. I get making a joke about something like that, but pretending like it's your belief system while doing so is rough. It's giving shane dawson making poor jokes. Out of touch and forced at the very least. Virtue signaling and appealing to his college kid audience who likely are just realizing these things about the world if we look at it in a worse light. I am a college kid so I can say that lmao (almost done though after 5 years)

[@derp195]

I kind of agree with them. I think he looked a little uncomfortable and even a little ashamed. It’s not true that “he’s an adult, so he can just sabotage the whole thing” because it isn’t that simple. I’m not saying he’s necessarily a good guy here, but I think it’s pretty likely that he opposed this but was overruled.

[@wingdingdoes6687]

"Steven is spending all the money" "Shane is uncomfortable" "Ryan wouldnt d-" THEY ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE!! THEYRE ALL ADULTS!! Dunk on the expensive food shows as much as your heart desires, this descision was made by all of them.

[@Lucifersfursona]

“This adult man I don’t know would never betray the morals I projected onto them into crevices in personas they created for that purpose” fandom is celebrity but with different flavor options on the same food change my mind (impossible)

[@witcherye]

the way oompville talked about the general feeling of the fandom very much summed up: "shane is innocent, ryan is learning and steven is a villain" lol

[@hotsexyangel]

The expensive food show is dumb and no one wants it but yes, all 3 are guilty.

[@Shaqiliciouss]

It's easier to scapegoat the less popular guy than to accept your favorite ghoul boys are greedy hypocrites. They definitely all played their part in this. There was no way that it was just Steven.

[@Bjorksbackyard]

@@Shaqiliciousseven if it were entirely Steven and he’s this horrible greedy villain, Shane and Ryan have a choice. Just like they left Buzzfeed by choice. Yeah it’d be hard to leave the company they built, but their new direction is insane and going to flop, it actually would’ve been better to leave. But they haven’t, so it’s equally their fault.

[@xXHatsuneMikuFanXx]

"people who are artists who are not even watching this rn, i am being played as a podcast" hearing this literally made me look up from my sketchbook so fast 😭

[@MysteryGirlv]

lol I’m working right now and I was like true that

[@Twist3dDisast3r]

Same

[@Nerdological]

SAME

[@r.m.miller]

Same!!!

[@aimeedanart]

Was literally drawing when she said this haha, I mean hey sometimes I watch at lunch too!

[@yin9383]

They did tell Variety in an interview that they were going to delete their old videos off youtube too lol which makes it even obvious that they backtracked

[@sparrow4226]

Yeah, I was about to say - it's not a rumor, they confirmed it in their interview to Variety and backwalked it so fast in the first like 5 hours after they uploaded the initial "Goodbye KZbin" video because the backlash was so bad. Now they're pretending like they didn't say it because it was such a bad look and frankly kind of a dumb decision because like Swell says in the vid backlogs make a lot of passive income from KZbin.

[@kgal1298]

This is as bad as the Bon Appetite breakdown.

[@Bubeegirl]

Thank god I found this comment, I watched the Goodbye KZbin video within the first hour it was up (haven’t been back since). Then watched a bunch of other commentaries about it and was confused that people say Watcher isn’t taking their old content down. I thought I was imagining things. But it seems they backtracked and pretend it was never the case. If I had any ounce of respect left for them after the apology, it’s definitely gone now.

[@Kirasfox]

Wow...they're absolutely dumb guys 😅, I feel like they didn't wanna listen anyone who TRIED to stop them from this

[@enjolras_irl_1874]

​@sparrow4226 I think it was like the 1st hour actually because they already had the edited comment by the time I got to the video and I was pretty early cause I got the notification

[@Vulpix298]

They do not need 25 employees. I heard that their employees are made up of friends and family and that sucks, because obviously they need to cut some people off and firing people under normal circumstances will suck enough already, but imagine having to fire your cousin and now the rest of your family thinks you're an asshole? They dug themselves into a hole with that.

[@jnm2088]

Y’all arent getting it. When you have your family as employees, there is a tax they don’t pay in California. They aren’t doing it out of the goodness of their own hearts.

[@marocat4749]

Yeah, its not like family/friends and business cant work, but its a dangerous balance to handle and need really good communication and boundaries and that. Or it either ruins the relations or business easy. Its just , why family/friends and business, should be careful. God a that big family at work must be terrible as business or environment.

[@jayckal]

makes me wonder how is the try guys different in managing their team, and seemingly quite successful with it, when objectively speaking their content is no longer as good

[@Vulpix298]

@@jayckal “oBjEcTiVelY sPeAkInG” *proceeds to say an opinion*

[@jacquelynchin5513]

yepppp meanwhile 2nd Try announced their streamer shortly after them and had a much better reception because of how thoroughly they thought out the production timeline. the streamer is available as an app and on platforms like roku in addition to a website, they had a bunch of new content ready to launch early on the streamer, they're still uploading to YT as a primary audience fielder, the founders/owners even took pay cuts so they could pay their staff for the extra work they had to put in before the announcement w the new series. they have like 20ish full-time people and 2nd Try pumps out more content and has been around for longer, and their employee count only expands when they need freelancers for big livestream or bigger production-value videos that need it

[@TheGhostCheese]

I saw somebody saying "Maybe 6$ isn't expensive but what about the people that live in another country where the currency isn't dollars ?" And then the person explained that in their country 6$ was a 2 week of grocery

[@compout2]

​@@basicallyno1722 that's a silly thing to say

[@quadling3521]

@@basicallyno1722Nah, a ton of countries have free wifi everywhere. Some governments even have free wifi as a public service. The comment in question I think was about Thailand and how 6USD was about half a day’s pay for an average worker, which is more about currency conversion than an indicator of their living conditions because the cost of living is lower and based around Thai currency and not USD.

[@autumnssssss]

@@basicallyno1722it's sad that americans can't imagine a country providing a free service for their people and having affordable groceries

[@razzmothazz]

THIS!! 1$ is worth about 4.5 of my currency. this is far from affordable for people like myself, who not only have to deal with converting but also just not having much money in general. if it was 6 in my currency it would be affordable, but i doubt they want to make people pay a 1.50$ a month because atp its not worth it for them at all

[@Sky-pg8jm]

Yep, 6$ USD is 8$ CAD here which while that's not a massive difference, we're in a massive cost of living crisis and I personally am on disability

[@FlyingWonderGirl]

The whole “we want to go abroad on location” reason from them, is idiotic, as they HAVE gone internationally.

[@DANIcandii]

Not to mention them going to the UK for Ghost Files was also them doing live shows that should have helped finance that trip to begin with

[@dolphinloser6546]

They're in the beginnings of a tour right now, someone I know is booked to see them in London in a couple weeks... Is that not bringing in a ton of money??

[@haybale287]

@@dolphinloser6546 Hooooly shit, no way

[@dolphinloser6546]

@@haybale287 yeah, they were in the O2 in London on Wednesday this week! Literally less than a full week after their announcement. What were they THINKING.

[@Amy-G-Dala-]

I think it's wilder that they want to go international but Watcher TV is not available to international fans so those said fans will have to use a VPN and will be paying way higher fees for the website's subscription.

[@marianr.2155]

You forgot to mention that THERE WAS A COUNTDOWN TO THEIR FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT. As in, fans were excitedly waiting for news they’d been hyping up, only for it to be like “if you’re poor this is the last you’ll see of us”. The way this was handled was WILD.

[@Avendesora]

11:32

[@marianr.2155]

@@Avendesora ?

[@Avendesora]

@@marianr.2155 Sorry, I must have paused it later than I thought I did when I made the comment. Try 11:26. I am pointing out that she didn't forget to say this and you just missed it lol

[@quwandathornton]

wait so what's going on? T-T

[@homeiswonderland]

It was also... THE GOOFIEST announcement teasers. Tone deaf, indeed.

[@georgie1214]

The funniest part of Shane's wife's comments on tumblr was that directly under that post she shared a $100 tote bag she bought, yeah girl you're struggling to survive

[@cardboard2night]

They spend like hundred thousand dollars on their wedding too... So much financial struggle 😔

[@伏見猿比古-k8c]

Shane: Help me with this weeks budget. Video production $850 Costumes $700 Puppets $520 Wedding $150,000,000 Writers $12,000 Editors: $12,000

[@purlhaggard]

@@伏見猿比古-k8clol “Please help my family is starving”

[@jjay107]

$100 doesn't compare to the millions to employ their staff and benefits. It was never about them struggling individually, but as a company so that they don't have to fire any more of their staff and keep the lights on. Plus, it's his wife. Does she not work, do they not have savings, bfr this isn't about their families.

[@LostStarzOfTheSky]

@@jjay107 it was just, SO FUCKING UNSELFAWARE, complete let them eat cake sorta shit

[@astraynaught9343]

The people fighting the "they're ALL grown men who agreed to do this" fight are my heroes, truly

[@avalokiteshvara113]

Yeah the amount of babying I see people doing for these 3 idiots is crazy.

[@junkpool]

LITERALLY. pop the parasocial bubble!

[@petiteange08]

So true. The other two are main creators with major stake in this, I doubt they were just reluctantly brought into this by Steven.

[@thesyrupdude]

in the past 4 years ive seen way too many people defend ADULT content creators who make poor decisions and be like "oh they just didnt know" and baby them to no end. like those are grown ass men, if they are that stupid to not raise their discomfort or think "should i say this?" they are probably too irresponsible and shouldnt be getting your support in the first place

[@chaschuky999]

My best guess is they were attempting to transition to a model like what college humor did when they became dropout - the caveat being dropout was made from true necessity or the company would die. Watcher had a huge patreon already with 6,000 members, and wanted to add a subscription service on top? That’s wild.

[@Fallenemiko]

This is quite literally what I thought abt too.

[@thetruebadevil]

Yeah. Also, wasn’t CH a company long before they started the streaming service, while Watcher has existed for like 5 years? There is a pretty big different between them to my knowledge.

[@chaschuky999]

@@thetruebadevilyeah collegehumor started in 1999… and were never profitable afaik. Dropout started out as a very small service that was like $1/month for basically bonus content while the KZbin was still free and uploading , then when they lost their VC funding they transitioned to more money/month and pretty much all exclusive content.

[@SomeplaceScary]

Yeah i kept seeing people talking like it was the same thing, and these situations aren't even comparable.

[@ecodes8498]

What a lot of KZbinrs do not talk about, it is that Steven owns a Tesla. The rest of them have shown in the past that they do not struggle financially. They do not struggle to keep the business alive, they just cannot afford their lifestyle so the audience has to do it.

[@darecastor4995]

Thank you for the Ryan and Shane comment. Sick of people trying to pretend like they weren’t involved in this decision. They were

[@smoxthybweh]

Parasocial relationships, baby 😎👉👉

[@3possumsinatrenchcoat]

"but my Precious UwU Smol Bean would NEVER betray me like this! it must be that Evil Other Guy!" - literally like half their fans after the announcement

[@3possumsinatrenchcoat]

actually I take it back, feels like half the comments even on *this* video are doing the same thing. 'I'm gonna ignore the culpability of Anyone Else Involved Here and just blame the food guy' like? did we watch the same video?

[@sugarblunt]

How are they evil for this you guys need to touch grass the stuff is not evil

[@yingying_42]

​@@sugarbluntnobody in this comment chain is saying anyone is evil tho?

[@hobiwankenobi.666]

17:13 the person who commented "i skip every video that has you in it" made me choke

[@eremiss4771]

It's truly wild, and I don't understand how NO ONE in that office thought to poll the fans or patrons, or do a gradual rollout, or just something, ANYTHING, other than what they actually went with. Truly crazy. They really thought the comment about "the ghost episodes cost $100,000" would get a response of "let us give you money!" and not "how and why are they so expensive??? Why haven't you cut production costs???" Separately: I've heard, and agree with, the idea that people care more about sound quality than video quality with videos.High quality video is nice, but low quality video won't necessarily make people stop watching. High, or at least GOOD, quality sound, though? Required. People will drop a video with bad sound So Fast.

[@lilymulligan8180]

Agreed, they didn't do ANY market research or proof-of-concept work. They were so up their own asses that they really thought, "if we just announce this as an exciting surprise, then people will happily give us money, without question or pushback!" All that money they're spending on payroll, and it's all just on "yes" men, apparently. No one stood up to them and told them it was a bad idea. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@WolfCharmer]

They did poll their patreon ONCE and its inhrently biased because they already pay

[@bizziegrace]

plus ghost hunting is supposed to be low quality, thats how you see the ghosts!!!

[@jeffrey7282000]

Without a disclaimer bad audio gets around 2 minutes to clear up or I'm out

[@brinnabuns]

​@lilymulligan8180 they really used the same strategy I use when I have to give my cat a pill. "Oh a treat! An extra special treat!"

[@flourishingwithalex6470]

‘I’m being played as a podcast cos they want to hear me talk about something they barely care about’ called me out so much

[@Kiki-cs8xv]

Same. I'm literally doing data entry on a spreadsheet at work right now. I can listen to hours of KZbin in a day and watch virtually none of it.

[@laline_aaa]

same omg 😭 i was doing chores and making lunch while "watching" this video lmao

[@oliviatheeartist]

Real! On my lunch break at work and had no clue what this was about before watching 💀😭

[@kutabareproductions9917]

I was walking my dog lmao

[@vanessa4169]

I stopped my knitting to acknowledge how accurate this was

[@sarahwillacker4135]

In Steven's post, "for those who want to continue watching..." like bro??? I DO want to continue watching, YOU are preventing me from doing so

[@aubriem1944]

exactly omg

[@CherryBlossom3x3]

I dont, fuck them.

[@lizr.5977]

The biggest thing this "controversy" taught me was how little Watcher content I actually watched. Ghost Files in particularly, as a previous Unsolved: Paranormal fan, is just too bloated to hold my attention. They don't need a bunch of fancy ghost-hunting garbage, sets, and 1 hr+ runtimes, they just need tight editing and good banter. The "Road files" behind-the-scenes video that was on the Watcher TV platform was pretty illuminating as to their general lack of business sense and mismanagement of resources. They have waaay too many people for location scouting, too many days on location without shooting, etc. Watcher wasn't delivery TV-quality ideas like Dropout is, they don't need TV-level budgets, and even if they were, they don't seem to have the business sense to handle them.

[@emilymacdougall184]

Agreed! The only shows I watch from them is Mystery Files and Puppet History. Occasionally I will watch a top 5 beat down episode. Truly all of those things should not require big budgets and a half hour runtime is enough for most people

[@bloodmajesty414]

Plus they forgot the reason why Unsolved got so popular is not because they are ghost hunting channel -- they are ghost hunting PARODY channel. We don't need their tv level cinematography super advanced system stuff, we just want them to be funny.

[@SaruCharmed]

I pretty much only watch Puppet History and Are You Scared?

[@CoolMagmar]

@@emilymacdougall184 Same like not even going that dolar hits harder for international people like me, but still I only watch some of their shows and still like Pupper History I only watch with my sister and she doesn't have time so we still in the molasses episode lol And also I really liked their Are You Scared segment and it is like not posted anything for it over an year, so imagine you pay for a streaming service and still have higher chances that they will not make your fav segment

[@reaganb6173]

i’m the opposite and i only have ever watched ghost files. and that’s it. i’m not going to pay money every month to watch a ghost show and only a ghost show.

[@stormborn23]

One of the few things I found ridiculous in this whole debacle was how there are people so far up Shane's and/or Ryan's ass to immediately crucify Steven right away. Like, I'm also of the opinion that we don't need Steven in front of the camera with his weird quirks and highly questionable opinions but it's so parasocial and juvenile to think that Shane and Ryan were somehow forced to agree to their We-Have-Netflix-at-Home venture. Stop treating your content creators like they're not grown adults when they clearly are. They all fucked up in this situation, not just Steven and his expensive tongue.

[@MxchiefMaykr]

I think the reason a lot of people blame Steven mainly is because he's now sole CEO so he has a lot more say over things and that his focus on shows that are a lot more expensive just for the sake of them makes it feel like he's the one pushing higher costs for no reason. I do agree that people need to be spreading the blame a lot more evenly across the three of them and not just excusing Ryan and Shane because they're the presenters they like, but I can see why a lot of people would assume it's largely a problem caused by Steven. His content wasnt what most people checked into the channel for and compared to the more grounded premise for a lot of the other series which could easily be made with lower budgets, the luxury taste testing stuff just feels like an expense that should have been first on the chopping block if they were actually having money issues. The whole thing is just a major mess of all of them not bothering to ask their audience what they actually want because they thought they knew better

[@earthwormjim1125]

Hey I'm not super familiar with Steven, what are his questionable opinions?

[@MxchiefMaykr]

@@earthwormjim1125 I'm not super familiar with him either but from what I gather he's a bit like the community meme of 'ill accept racism but I draw the line at animal cruelty' where he'll happily forgive people being racist even when it's towards people and groups other than himself and it's not his place to decide how offensive or forgivable something was. Plus he's a Tesla shill maybe? Not 100% sure on that either but considering how much he focused on high priced stuff and needing to always be bigger and more expensive it would be more of a shock to me to learn he wasn't

[@notshardain]

@@earthwormjim1125 people recently found out the pastor he invited onto one of their shows is virulently homophobic (and is also HIS pastor at the church he attends), and have noticed homophobic books in the background in some of the videos filmed in Steven's house. And he has said openly he is friends with racists and homophobes. Also brags about having a tesla which is just obnoxious rich person behavior.

[@stardoogalaxie9314]

@@MxchiefMaykrsole CEOs do not realistically get 100 percent say over everything. This sort of decision had to be put to a vote. I speculate Shane, his Wife Ryan and Steven voted on it and the decision won 3 to 1. Based on the info, it was Steven and Maybe Shane's Wife. So now who's the tie breaker? I fucking hate it when "The Boys" are absolved of responsibility when it was either Ryan or Shane as a tie breaker in a major vote that could change the direction of their company.

[@traceacex]

I absolutely still reference the 'I've connected the dots' 'you didn't connect shit' thing from one of the unsolved episodes, they were SO FUNNY and it's like they didn't realize the fact the show was also kind of campy and funny made the show more than two dudes going into a haunted house.

[@riabouchinska]

I know like almost every episode is full of those extremely quotable moments, the banter was unequaled and I just haven’t seen the same thing in any of their Watcher content

[@ellie5995]

I still see that meme a lot, including other moments from unsolved but I rarely see any from watcher 😬

[@piepersm]

They were for sure trying to be Dropout. But the difference is CH's parent company went bankrupt, the CEO had to fire everyone, but like 5 people. They made a website to get all of the other people hired. Dropout took what little resources they had a built some really good but fairly cheap to produce stuff and have slowly gotten better and put more money back into it. As dropout subscriber since the beginning, what watcher did was so different and so much worse. They didn't need the money and didn't give the audience all of the information

[@williewonka9805]

And drawfee is independent from dropout and still on KZbin. Because it's just people bantering and drawing and doesn't need the higher production value, so it wouldn't make sense to move it to a premium platform.

[@MxchiefMaykr]

Not to mention that Sam Reich dropped a lot of his own money into getting Dropout afloat and to be able to hire people back on. Dropout works well because it has a pretty varied cast and a lot of different content, watcher has a much smaller selection of shows and releases content pretty slowly compared to a lot of productions with their crew size and budget, and only really has Ryan and Shane in front of the camera 90% of the time so there's no real variety of value for money in comparison. Dropout worked out of necessity and had a good couple years of barely scraping by before it turned enough of a profit to be viable in the long run, Watcher clearly had short sighted goals of cash grabbing with it without understanding what their audience wanted and how that situation isn't desirable if it's not absolutely necessary

[@furbyacolyte5604]

​@@williewonka9805 afaik that's because after the CH shutdown, drawfee chose to keep their own IP. most of the shows on dropout are new IPs for this reason, the CH exec team made sure all the creators had full control over their own work even after the company went down

[@kathylennerds750]

Yess this and the additional comments. I was floored by how obviously they were trying to do Dropout, including the whole ass interface of their website just without the app.

[@tb4546]

It smells to me less like dropout and more like Fine Bros. Remember React World?

[@aujeanrhee8632]

yoooo former Watcher subscriber, and no their apology didn’t win my trust back. I don’t think the streaming service launch was just about finance and creative control, I think there’s a TV-caliber ego rooted there. The melodramatic tone, semi-docu edits, a tech-pitch-like soap success story in the beginning of their goodbye youtube video convinced me that it is not just that they didn’t understand their audience, but they needed all those high-productions for self-importance.

[@saintgtx]

Spot on. They felt like they were bigger than the platform that made them.

[@Mistahhuntah]

Exactly. They saw 3 million subscribers and multiplied it by 6. That was the extent of their market research.

[@monroeriddell5822]

Exactly! That's what I was thinking. It came across like those guys in bands who get such an inflated ego that they quit the band to try and start a solo career, but just weren't as popular as they were when they were in the band!

[@AmethystEyes]

“More money will not solve bad business practices” -Swell That is such a great point!

[@maggiep6605]

That's what got me. I can afford the $6, but that hasn't always been easy to afford, and the whole situation has made me have questions about how they run their business. In what world do you make a change like this with seemingly no market research?! Cause here's the thing, I was leaning towards joining their patreon because of them adding the other worth it guys. Now? I'm going to wait and see, because that still is a lot of money to me.

[@Bjorksbackyard]

@@maggiep6605maybe they should branch out their dumb Worth It series to test their streaming platform against the 100 others out there. Sure I have $6 a month, but is it worth it for Watcher? Nope

[@Fyrelass542]

26:20 "A good amount of my audience are creatives. They aren't even watching, they've got me on in the background while they do something else." Me, looking down at my knitting project that I'm actively working on: well shit. She's got *my* number down.

[@madi7178]

This is hilarious, thanks for the laugh!

[@Tessq]

Same here, looked down at my sewing and felt called out :P

[@Elementalsight]

Absolutely looking for this comment, as I work on my next embroidery demo....

[@JadeReloaded]

Cross stitching as I listen...

[@emh.1178]

Same here- I'm working on an illustration commissionXD

[@jogreer7204]

In terms of the pinned comment thing: They literally say in their video that you will be able to view their back catalogue on KZbin for the launch period, but starting at the end of May, it would all move to their streaming service. Obviously, that's not a direct quote, but it's blatantly stated in the video. Their pinned comment comes off as "we never said that, you dummies! We don't know where you got that from!" It wasn't speculation, it was stated in the video, so that upset quite a lot of people. Nothing against what you said, I just wanted to clarify that it was not speculation or subtext, it was said in the video and they backpedalled so hard they called their fans dumb to their faces.

[@localtownwitch]

ty for saying this ! Ive been super bothered by this part bc imo they said it loud and clear

[@yourstruly9013]

Also it was in a Variety article the Watcher boys' interviewed for. Explicitly stated their series would become exclusive to the new site.

[@FukaiKokoro]

They literally were gaslighting us.

[@uhohspaghettios2391]

Fucking thank you! I knew I remembered them saying that in the video, but Swell and others saying it was rumored made me doubt myself.

[@belindagritter1572]

A lot of us remember hearing it. Denying it is just outright lying.

[@mimes6424]

"I am being played as a podcast" my phone says, buried underneath a layer of fabric scraps from where a face I would not recognise plays on a tiny screen

[@Karragh]

Just to clarify, they make EXTREMELY little crime based content on watcher. I get why you'd expect that based on what they became known for, but their closest equivalent series to Unsolved True Crime, Mystery Files, almost never covers crime mysteries. Their other series (Ghost Files, Are You Scared, Survival Mode, Puppet History, dish Granted, Too Many Spirits etc) never cover crimes at all. They shouldn't be hurting for sponsorship deals, and they do get a lot of them.

[@nicoler5713]

And tbh, I follow crime youtubers who do much more explicit content than even Unsolved TC. Plenty of them have a sponsor every video.

[@ia490]

I never realized that was because of sponsors. I thought it was because of the (often) exploitative nature of true crime content 😅

[@Karragh]

@@ia490 Their stated reason at the time of launching mystery files was, if I recall correctly, that true crime was just too dark and depressing. I suspect both things are true. They wanted to veer away from that content to have an easier time getting sponsors, but it also probably was a bummer to be researching and talking about horrible murders all the time.

[@naonao9528]

Except crime isn't the only content KZbin advertisers don't like. The only show I could see not having advertisers issues with is dish granted. Ghost files: usually people associate hauntings with tragedy/violence so when they are giving the backstory there is content advertisers don't like. Too many spirits there could be unfriendly content in the stories, but also advertisers on KZbin don't like drinking. I think depending on the game or historical event survival mode and puppet history could broach topics advertisers aren't super into as well.

[@Karragh]

@@naonao9528 They had significant brand deals on 12 out of their last 19 videos. Too Many Spirits has literally had special sponsorship episodes where they do a one off mini episode just for a brand deal.

[@TheStlouisnation]

They don't have a accountant. Same level as learning the Try Guys didn't have HR.

[@valkyriedarquese]

the cackle I let out at this hurt my stitches lmao

[@genericname2747]

We love the Ned slander

[@Emjay.d]

To be fair, having an HR department wouldn’t have stopped the affair from happening, it would have just meant they had internal employees to fix the liabilities. And it seems like they did reach out to an HR company to navigate the fallout of a bad business partner.

[@christalcavanaugh]

@@Emjay.dthey would have had someone an employee could go to if they felt like their boss was being inappropriate. Whether or not it was “consensual” in this case, if this had happened with someone who felt uncomfortable with Ned’s advances, HE was the only one available as “HR” to talk to

[@Nadia1989]

Or like Linus Tech Tips, where HR is the founder's wife

[@bennyhana97]

That phenomenon you mentioned about being background noise for artists like a podcast; I think some creators overvalue their content as "main monitor" content. Often, especially now in the slop algorithm feed era, people like content they can put on their second screen to absorb the audio or commentary while getting something else done. I haven't been a Watcher/Unsolved viewer in years, but their content always struck me as something to pop on and enjoy while eating lunch or something; not as a Media phenomenon like a Netflix show that fuels dialogue outside of their social media.

[@Persewna4]

Yeah, honestly half the time youtube videos are "what I fall asleep to" content (sometimes intentionally, sometimes not), and the rest of it is stuff to watch while I eat meals or browse on my phone.

[@musicsinger365]

​@@Persewna4 I literally have a "Naptime Playlist" exactly for this, videos that I will have playing in the background as I do other things and potentially fall asleep to (intentionally or not). 😂

[@a.n.9800]

I enjoy long-form videoessays discussing my interests but unfortunately I just don’t have the time in my day to sit down and watch them with my full attention, but I do have to drive to and from work multiple days a week so I’ll just listen to the videos while I drive. I know I won’t need visuals for them anyway, and driving as an activity engages a different part of my attention than the audio so I can do both at the same time.

[@theYammy]

This is a super interesting comment to me because there was this article i remember reading about how showrunners (on netflix) are actually given notes about how their show isn't "second screen" enough. Mina Le mentions this quote in her recent video about streaming services, but I found the article and it's titled "Justine Bateman: Pulling AI Into the Arts Is “Absolutely the Wrong Direction”" on the hollywood reporter. Honestly, I don't want to discourage creators from wanting their work to be More, I think it's good to have goals and ideas for what you want to do with your work to be satisfied with it! but at the same time i do think the watcher needed a bit of a reality check in remembering that they don't need high production values for people to watch their stuff.

[@taliag09]

I love long form KZbin for this very reason. I can and will 'watch' 1-4 hr videos (or up to 10+! Thanks kitboga!) while commuting, cooking, cleaning etc and glance at my phone every so often if there is some cool editing or infographic or something but otherwise KZbin has become more of a listening platform for me

[@hoshi-15]

Everytime Amanda calls out her collection of art goblins listening to hear videos as podcasts is so funny. We all look up like meerkats wondering why we’ve been summoned by Amanda.

[@christinae]

I think starting on Buzzfeed made them uniquely vulnerable towards making a mistake like this. In a way they were never KZbinrs...they worked for content farm, and were more beholden to Buzzfeed than directly to their audience. They weren't required to hustle and advocate for themselves in the ways that independent creatives on KZbin have to. And they started out with a certain baseline production value expectation, and I think the desire to make TV is what kept them from making a good KZbin channel. They needed to hustle more for likes and subscribes and especially for their Patreon but you don't see that kind of stuff in a "tv show" so you're not gonna see it on an episode of Ghost Files (which I thought could have been as good or better than Unsolved, but was too long). I hope they can turn it around because I do like them and most of the Watcher content. But a turn as the Internet's Villain of the Week is pretty hard to claw your way back from.

[@BelieveInMyDaydreams]

This is such a good point.

[@izasolecka5843]

great comment

[@neuroseptember1020]

I think their buzzfeed start is also the reason they plan their business model as having so many employees. Buzzfeed was structured as a media company, not a youtube channel. That’s the way they know how to make content

[@rascal342]

Idk, I think being the Internet Villain for the Week can be good for business especially if you have a redemption moment. But burning the audience you already have is never good

[@ripwednesdayadams]

Idk even Shane Dawson managed to claw his way back.

[@kkuudandere]

I'm glad you went on a tangent about the beginnings of youtube really being "person talking to a camera", all the channels I watch the most are STILL that. Talking in their bedroom, talking in their living room, talking in THEIR BATHTUB to a camera.

[@erensalias]

My favorite podcast is filmed by two friends in a bathtub!! People talking to the camera is my Favorite content to watch on KZbin!! If I wanted high production I’d go to traditional media is my thought process

[@Caterpillar0fDoom]

​@erensalias what's the name of the podcast? It sounds interesting

[@janalemon8412]

⁠@@Caterpillar0fDoomI might be wrong but I’m pretty sure they’re talking about Nicole Rafiee’s podcast called talk nasty to me

[@NoiseDay]

Just thinking about how if I saw this stuff on Netflix, I'd tune out immediately. And when I see Netflix-level production on KZbin, I tune out immediately. I'm not here to watch a produced TV show. I'm here to chill with a stranger on the internet who's talking to me like we're friends.

[@Critter_Farm]

One of my favorite KZbin videos of all time is NakeyJakey laying in his bed while he talks about how playing Dark Souls dragged him out of a depressive episode.

[@maurinet2291]

RE: The only new show on Watcher is going to be an expensive travel show. You come across this with regular TV personalities too who suddenly have a travel show. We ALL would like to travel and get paid for it. But unless you have a pretty specific angle, the right skill set, or that IS the content you're known for (like travel or cruise vloggers), it's just going to be another would-be celeb on a paid vacation and we all see that.

[@Firsona]

Tbh, it's not really going to affect my enjoyment of it if they're in Italy or Georgia. I'm not at either place and will likely never go to them. They're going to all those places for themselves and trying to tell us how much we want to see it.

[@EloraChristine]

@@Firsona Will you sign up for Watcher?

[@Firsona]

@@EloraChristine Nah. They were buried in my subscribe list and I more or less stopped watching videos from them awhile back. Think the last one I saw was one of the puppet episodes.

[@samhayet4286]

Hell, that's the only reason Adam Sandler keeps making movies...

[@Firsona]

@@EloraChristine Don't think so. They were buried in my sub list a long time ago. Last thing I watched and really enjoyed by them was a puppet history episode.

[@procrasy]

Their biggest mistake was the way they handled patreon. Apparently they changed the tiers and raised them (the third tier went from 25$ to 100$) and didn’t give patreons heads up or offered the subscription free for them since they were pulling content (paying patreons get advanced view for all the Watcher videos, that wouldn’t have been the case anymore). They backtracked on that last part, but what fascinate me is that those people should have been their main focus if they wanted to transition from patreon to their own platform (which in a sense, is what they were doing) : those are the people who showed they could already afford a monthly subscription and were willing to pay it. But instead they raised the price of their tiers, removed privileges associated to them and didn’t discuss it before or at the announcement with their patreons. The biggest support, those who subscribed annually, were ironically the ones who came out the worst in that initial setup. You don’t need an MBA to understand that’s dumb.

[@justjoannak]

Ugh, that just gave the ick

[@Nadia1989]

25$ to 100$ is criminal. It's "I think my credit card was stolen" level of criminal

[@momota8067]

$25 to $100 is CRAZY.. If i was a patron and saw that amount be removed id assume my account got hacked

[@4lyeskas]

The email to patrons (I was on the lowest paid tier) was basically like, "In three (3) days we'll be completely gutting all the rewards you signed up for and making this space podcast only! We're giving a special patron discount code for the streamer but we only generated EXACTLY ENOUGH for the exact # of patrons we have so if it gets used up or you miss the deadline you're SOL. If you don't like this decision please jump through hoops to get your annual sub refunded. (Annual only!) Thxbye."

[@arashiuchiha1591]

Meanwhile Jenny Nicholson has 2 dollar patreon and you can eat all you want

[@yeahhmom]

it's in very poor taste for them to say they need the funds yada yada while having their only show announced at launch one where they eat luxury foods lmao

[@monwren]

Especially how there has been "food is a luxury statement" discourse with celebrities flaunting how they shop in Erewhon. They indeed should not do a show that requires taste, woof.

[@longlivedodos]

This definitely came across very poorly, but people are really overblowing the expensive food thing. Those videos are probably significantly cheaper to make than the on-location shoots for the ghost/true crime videos they want to be doing. People watch those videos because the food is expensive, and they get a good amount of views. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the only show where they are running a budget surplus, considering that it’s like their only show where they aren’t renting out a set.

[@EloraChristine]

@@longlivedodos It's a little deeper than the food being expensive on its own. I don't believe ppl are (just) upset about the food itself being expensive, just that on one hand the Watcher team "can't pay their employees" and on the other they are asking loyal fans to pay for them to film something with "luxury" foods when people can't afford bread and eggs right now in the States (context if you're not in America). So it feels disingenuous and grift-y for many, like adding insult to injury.

[@violetbeaumont4092]

People also got mad at Sara for her post on tumblr because it was clear that she was living a luxurious life where she could afford to buy and treat herself to expensive things (they spend $50K on the wedding venue, have 3 wedding dresses, and she flexed a $100 tote bag recently before the whole 'goodbye youtube' video). So, when she said 'livable wages', it sounds ignorant and kinda sounds as if she wants the fans to pay for watchertv, so she can benefit and continue living her luxurious life.

[@willd.4808]

I mean...content creators deserve to be paid for their labor, even if they already live comfortably. If you don't want to or can't afford to pay for entertainment, there's tons of free options available to you (I had no intention of shelling out for another streaming service either!) but it's not unfair for anyone to want to be paid a livable wage for their career even if they started their career creating free content. I have to say I'm baffled by all the "I'm entitled to free content from my favorite entertainers" responses. You're...not, actually.

[@bookkeeper8092]

@@willd.4808I think the ick is coming from the “livable wage” part. They’re well above livable wage.

[@violetbeaumont4092]

@@willd.4808 that's just it, livable wages implies that they need income that can covers basic necessities such as food, shelter, child care and healthcare. Someone who can afford to spend their money on multiple luxuries certainly earns more than 'livable' wages as she has stated on her post. It just comes off as dishonest and out of touch when you're an influencer who's salary is higher than what most people earn a year (even if the people have worked their ass for years) - and to turn around and say "hey, we actually need you guys to pay for our content, cause you know what? We don't have money to live, but please do ignore all of the expensive things that we have bought and paid for cause that is part of our basic necessities, teehee" that's just scummy as hell, so yes, people DO have a right to get angry at that. And no, it's not unfair that they want to diversify their income by putting their content behind a paywall, you don't see people get angry just because a creator is going down the patreon route or making a deal with a streaming site for their show - no, it's usually the opposite where fans give them support whenever their finances allows it. In short, NOBODY expects that a youtuber to stay and create their content on youtube ONLY. What Watcher has done is not diversifying their content, but instead cutting off one of the major platform (arguably, the most important one that supplies them with potential new fans and new deals with other businesses) and say "yeah, we've been spending a whole lot of money more than what's necessary, but it's all for you, cause you guys are the one who wants a TV production, right? You guys wants our shows to be just like what other TV shows are, so please pay us more money for that" when NO ONE ever asked for that. Again, it's scummy to be making financial decision that you know that you can't afford (hiring 25 people plus more now that they seems wanting to bring thee 'worth it' gang back, wanting to make a TV show, etc), then PUTTING it on the fans to pay for it when the fans never asked for that while clearly living a lavish lifestyle that they keep flexing to the fans (not to mention how manipulative it feels for them to create an emotional intro to just then ask for money from the fans afterwards in the 'goodbye youtube' video AND the fact that they always maintain this 'eat the rich' persona all these years, especially from Ryan and Shane). It's like that one rich friend of yours who invited you out for lunch at an expensive restaurant, order all of the expensive food for both of you and then expects you to pay the bill. So no, it's not unfair that they want their content to be paid for (which honestly already has by adsense, and sponsors that they regularly gets) but it is unfair to expect the fans to pay for their financial decision which again, nobody asked for. I'm baffled by how diehard you go defending their decision, without trying to understand from the fans' perspective and called them entitled, when there are a lot of justifiable reasons for a fan of theirs to get mad at them.

[@violetbeaumont4092]

@@willd.4808 That's just it, livable wage implies income that can cover their basic necessities such as food, shelter, child care and healthcare. And I assured you, someone who can afford to buy multiple luxuries earns more than what Sara has stated as 'livable wage'. What content creators earns per month is usually a whole lot more than an average person's income per year, even if that person has been working for years. So to turn around and say "hey, can you guys pay us more money, cause boohoo, we can't afford to just live on these wages, please do ignore all of the expensive things we have bought recently cause that's honestly what we considered as basic necessities, teehee" is just dishonest and scummy as h*ll (not to mention, the level of audacity to get mad and blocked those who have pointed these out). So yeah, it is justified for people who got mad at her for posting that. And no, it's not unfair for a content creator trying to diversifying their incomes by going down the patreon route or having their show on a streaming site, you don't see anyone getting mad at a youtuber for having a patreon and promoting it on youtube. Instead, you would see fans trying to support their favourite creator by buying the services that they provide (merch, streams, etc) whenever their finances allows it. What Watcher has done is not diversifying their income but cutting off one of their major platforms (arguably, the most important one that can potentially brings in a horde of new fans and new deals from other businesses), making irresponsible financial decision that nobody has ever asked for, and then saying "please give us more money, I understand that most of you are financially struggling, but hey only $6 per month! What a steal, right? And we're doing it for you guys, you did asked for shows that has TV production level, right?" while STILL living a lavish life that they keep flaunting to the viewers. It's like that one rich friend of yours who invited you to have a lunch at an expensive restaurant, and order all of the expensive food but then expected you to pay for the bills. So yeah, while it's fair for a content creator to go down multiple routes other than youtube to increase their income (which NOBODY expects a youtuber to make content ONLY on youtube), it's not fair for a content creator to be making decisions that none of their fans has asked for (increasing their production values and set) and then asking the fans to pay for it while pretending as if they don't have extra money that they would use on their next expensive purchase for themselves. It baffled me how diehard you go supporting their decision, while ignoring the viewers' perspective and calling them entitled, when there's countless and justifiable reasons for one to get mad at them for doing what they did.

[@violetbeaumont4092]

@@willd.4808 That's just it, livable wage implies income that can cover their basic necessities such as food, shelter, child care and healthcare. And I assured you, someone who can afford to buy multiple luxuries earns more than what Sara has stated as 'livable wage'. What content creators earns per month is usually a whole lot more than an average person's income per year, even if that person has been working for years. So to turn around and say "hey, can you guys pay us more money, cause boohoo, we can't afford to just live on these wages, please do ignore all of the expensive things we have bought recently cause that's honestly what we considered as basic necessities, teehee" is just dishonest and scummy as heck (not to mention, the level of audacity to get mad and blocked those who have pointed these out). So yeah, it is justified for people who got mad at her for posting that. And no, it's not unfair for a content creator trying to diversifying their incomes by going down the p*treon route or having their show on a streaming site, you don't see anyone getting mad at a youtuber for having a p*treon and promoting it on youtube. Instead, you would see fans trying to support their favourite creator by buying the services that they provide (merch, streams, etc) whenever their finances allows it. What Watcher has done is not diversifying their income but cutting off one of their major platforms (arguably, the most important one that can potentially brings in a horde of new fans and new deals from other businesses), making irresponsible financial decision that nobody has ever asked for, and then saying "please give us more money, I understand that most of you are financially struggling, but hey only $6 per month! What a steal, right? And we're doing it for you guys, you did asked for shows that has TV production level, right?" while STILL living a lavish life that they keep flaunting to the viewers. It's like that one rich friend of yours who invited you to have a lunch at an expensive restaurant, and order all of the expensive food but then expected you to pay for the bills. So yeah, while it's fair for a content creator to go down multiple routes other than youtube to increase their income (which NOBODY expects a youtuber to make content ONLY on youtube), it's not fair for a content creator to be making decisions that none of their fans has asked for (increasing their production values and set) and then asking the fans to pay for it while pretending as if they don't have extra money that they would use on their next expensive purchase for themselves. It baffled me how diehard you go supporting their decision, while ignoring the viewers' perspective and calling them entitled, when there's countless and justifiable reasons for one to get mad at them for doing what they did.

[@beth4107]

your comment on not needing a huge budget production for great videos is so right. their sort of content doesn’t NEED that huge budget. if they’re struggling financially with the huge amount of patreon contributions, that’s mismanagement, they’ve likely scaled too fast. while patreon isn’t perfect at all and alternatives need to get more traction, making their own streaming service is definitely not the move. if you can’t afford to run things right now what makes you think you can afford to run a streaming service?

[@j.yang7]

and are they planning to upload more over there, because even people who have money wouldn't want to pay the same price as netflix for a streaming service with only 4 or 5 new videos every month

[@Zectifin]

yeah if you're making youtube quality videos and have 25 staff members you're probably spending money poorly. They want people to pay a streaming service fee for videos that are of youtube quality? no shit meant on youtubers, but theres a reason this site is free.

[@linzbridge4495]

Jenna marbles was probably the cheapest and least thought out videos, but damn if I didn't watch every one because she was so entertaining! I didn't care what she did! She was th reason people watched, not the content itself.

[@RowdyProwdy]

This is the MOST BUSINESS ORIENTED review I’ve seen thus far. Business management, marketing, customer relations, financial planning, employee retention and management.. you killed this!!

[@damienb6184]

Yea they should hire her lol, except they already have too many employees 😂

[@RowdyProwdy]

@@damienb6184 🤣 when you hire the best, you don’t need to hire 5 of the mediocre..

[@RowdyProwdy]

@@damienb6184 but let’s be real, they hired their friends, most notably their friends who quit buzzfeed and came knocking for a job. I get it but at some point you gotta say… Love you but SEATS TAKEN lol

[@delusion5867]

I think the thing about not being able to get advertisers is bs. They get consistent high views, a golden ticket for sponsorships. It must boil down to terrible money handling and business practices

[@TheGhostofAbigailMills]

Yeah, that didn't sound right to me either. I was thinking along the lines of sponsorships fro things that are true crime or spooky-adjacent: like escape rooms, mystery solving games, etc. I've seen these sponsorships before. That could have been a slam dunk and I'm sure those kind of sponsors wouldn't ask them to water down the content.

[@delusion5867]

​@@TheGhostofAbigailMills I remember a company called Hunt a Killer, some sort of mystery puzzle subscription box, that did a bunch of sponsorships a few years ago. While there are definitely companies that don't venture into true crime/paranormal areas, there are still plenty willing to. While not a true crime KZbinr, TomSka has a steady sponsorship with Surfshark VPN and even made a video about it and how lenient they are with the nonsense he pulls in his sponsor segments and content. It just seems like a cop-out excuse to dump their money problems on the viewers.

[@ggomglol]

They also have an ad break/brand deal in almost every video

[@mhawang8204]

I think she was talking about Google Adsense specifically there. Sponsorship is another revenue stream.

[@delusion5867]

@@mhawang8204 I can see that, but they could easily bargain for a higher rate from sponsors to cover that

[@metamaus5701]

Preemptively gonna also say that I was so shocked (derogatory) to see how much Watcher fans apparently HATE Steven Lim, all while giving Shane an easy pass on the whole mess.

[@Clownbunnycosplay]

It’s insane, fans dog piled on Steven, when clearly it was a group decision, they should all take blame- the only thing I know is Steven wanted to do a more ‘expensive series’ and fans hated it.

[@ghostinajar9047]

​​@@Clownbunnycosplay I pretty much only watch puppet history and am not in the fandom but like Steven is both the CEO and the host of a show where he travels, sometimes out of country, and eats hundred dollar meals. Like I can see how that'd create some animosity when the company starts publically talking about money issues. I still think its parasocial but when the public appearances of the CEO have been him quitting a filming halfway through and the show where he eats hundred dollar food it's like understandable that he'd have a reputation.

[@quietlywandering]

not gonna defend the nasty and racist comments toward Steven at all, but I did see a fair amount of people also pointing out how Shane's whole 'capitalism sucks eat the rich' thing he's done throughout the years now felt... hypocritical at the very least

[@honeybee347]

My guess is from what I have seen of Steve, he has an naive bordering on toxic positivity on camera persona similar to Jimmy Fallon does. This can come off as insincere especially when compared against Ryan and Shane.

[@moonwatcher2877]

i haven't been in the fandom for a hot minute, but that kind of dynamic has been present even when watcher was newer. it's really unfortunate

[@StarSeeker1]

Not a single fan asked for "higher production" product, too. I am BAFFLED where they got the idea that anyone wanted that. If anything, it's the opposite!

[@caitlin8274]

They know we don’t care. But it would probably hurt their egos to be known only as that goofy ghost-hunting channel. Higher production and they can tell themselves “we’re basically making high quality television”

[@iheartacebear]

I literally just wanted more Buzzfeed unsolved. I just want them to give commentary on a story. I only listen most of the time. I barely ever watch it

[@Maglors_grief]

It's crazy that they said filming their ghost show costs about $100,000 each episode while also telling us that they need more money for higher production value 😭

[@longlivedodos]

This is what happens when you make a company but neglect marketing. It’s incredibly important to know what your consumers want, what the value of your product is, and what your profit margin is going to be. I’m not an avid watcher but I know that their fan base has been begging for more regular content schedules for years, yet they tunnel vision into high production quality every single time.

[@voidmatic]

I am absolutely LIVING for "if he's smart he deleted it... nOPE! STILL UP!" oml

[@mfuentes4961]

I feel like a lot of this could have been avoided if they had just conducted multiple surveys and livestreams with their viewers/supporters discussing what could be done to help the studio create more projects without the concern of financial strain on the company. That way, their company would have been able to find a good compromise that both benefits their company and their supporters. I’m also surprised that they didn’t think to collaborate with KZbin premium to create some exclusive series so they could be able to produce more high quality content while still staying on the platform.

[@lilymulligan8180]

This was my immediate thought too. Given how involved it would have been to make an entire streaming site, why didn't they do any proof-of-concept work first?? This whole thing could have been avoided if they just (gasp) asked their audience what they wanted!

[@yourstruly9013]

Right? A $6 a month "Join" channel membership with an exclusive series seems like a much smarter move! In the age of a dozen-or-so sites dominating the entire internet experience, why are we trying to go off-platform? How do you get more viewers to a new site without blowing tons of money on advertising? A member-exclusive series or two would have people who want ALL Watcher content to join, they would make memes and inside jokes and gifs that give the viewers not paying FOMO, and it would be an extra money stream for them. I know the answer of why they went with their own platform is to dodge KZbin's fickle censorship and algorithms and to take money directly and not w a cut off the top but I just can't see people this day-and-age willingly paying ANOTHER streaming service.

[@iniyama]

they could have easily asked their patreon supporters for input seeing as they are obviously already invested enough to pay for more content fans live that kind of stuff, being able to know what's going on behind the scenes and potentially helping the channel they enjoy grow into something bigger/better

[@bizziegrace]

I'm surprised they didnt at first attempt a crowdfund for something first, like as Ryan mentions a season of Ghost Files in the UK. I feel like people would much rather drop a 5-15$ one time thing to fund that season rather than a reoccurring fee theyll forget about without the promise of the show they want.

[@cher-bear88]

I was a Watcher fan until they suddenly and without notice flicked a match into their own dumpster. It’s difficult not to get emotionally attached to entertainers who tug at your heartstrings and get you through difficult times. Those of us who followed them from Buzzfeed saw their struggle and supported their move to their own channel because we know what it feels like to work hard for that dream job in college or make hard career choices. All of this happened during the pandemic, when many of us were emotionally and mentally exhausted, and sought comfort in keeping ourselves distracted on KZbin. Their story was an inspiration. So when they pulled this move-after they’d flaunted their newly acquired wealth on social media-it was hard not to feel… used and discarded. Legit like seeing some hero you’ve been cheering for turn around and say your presence isn’t wanted or needed anymore. The apology video almost got me to continue supporting them, but the damage was done. Supporting them would go against everything I stand for, because they’re no longer the people I thought they were.

[@splendidcyan]

Seconding your comment, it's perfectly said. I only watched PH and LOVED Mystery Files -- so their other shows, and the little one off things like gaming(?) and reading user submitted stories, I just figured were things to fill upload slots while they produced/researched/ect their higher-costing shows. So not a super fan, but enjoyed the shows that I liked. Now like, I don't think I want to come back if they were so quick to toss us aside without any thought. WE were the "filling time" viewers, I guess?

[@melissakivanakurniawan1495]

Me too. It seems ryan and steven already know and anticipated there will be backlash to their statement. Now, i don't feel like re sub to their channel. The apology video showed up like they are just crying,makes me cynical towards them. Why showing the cry face 🙄

[@belindagritter1572]

And maybe they never were. Eat the rich sounds good until you get rich.

[@plumbunnii]

@@melissakivanakurniawan1495 Don't forget the sad couch! significantly cheaper looking than the first announcement couch.

[@GamesFromSpace]

I could never hate you, Amanda. Unless you changed the intro.

[@jamie1602]

Change the intro and riots begin.

[@BigDickMark]

If I ever meet Amanda, I'm introducing myself by taking off my sunglasses and saying "that's it, that's my intro" and then hoping she thinks I'm cute UwU

[@jorrdan.]

That’s it, that’s my breaking point 🥸

[@saberthecoolest]

Petition for someone to use the “I’ve connected the dots”/“You didn’t connect s***”/“I’ve connected them” meme template for the Watcher controversy lol

[@KeyanCarlile]

I’ve been waiting for you to make your video about this. It was such a bizarre situation to watch unfold in real time as someone who’s been watching them for like 8 years.

[@Orangecatinahoodie]

Hi Keyan!

[@vaehtay]

Seeing that creator’s i love also like OTHEE creator’s I love is always wild. Pleasure to see you here

[@Draqua]

Keyan, please start a streaming service with Quinton with a show where the gimmick is you consistently make him weird scrambled eggs

[@_evenstar_]

I was such a Buzzfeed Unsolved too and tried to get into Watcher but just couldn't. The banter and "lower production value" was really part of the charm of Unsolved.

[@otterpoppin]

Hard agree.

[@PassTheMarmalade1957]

This whole thing has kind of made me wonder whether they thought they were too good for Buzzfeed - That their frustration wasn't about being poorly appreciated, having their ideas shot down, or being made to feel like a cog in a machine, but that they thought the "cheapness" of the production was beneath them. Like they were embarrassed not to have movie studio set-ups and bitterly wished they were on TV instead of the internet. I now can't escape the idea that they don't actually like being KZbinrs. In which case, why should I watch them? I like KZbin.

[@that_nao]

25 employees is crazyyyy. that’s bigger than every prod company and writers room i’ve ever worked in. it’s even bigger than most post teams for major network/streaming shows! obv they have to do multiple departments, but 25 feels v bloated.

[@Kayla_P99]

Particularly when they have like 2 "talent" people

[@imjustjk]

Apparently many, if not most, of their employees are friends and family members. (This is what I’ve seen in various comments sections, not sure of its veracity to be fair)

[@Kayla_P99]

a lot are professional contacts from buzzfeed/ friends which definitely makes their position harder from a business decision standpoint

[@madelinehutchinson]

I mean last I recall Smosh had 30ish full time employees (though that’s probably higher since the Ian Anthony merger) but Smosh has a dedicated studio, four channels, puts out content nearly every day and all they have is KZbin memberships for BTS and a handful of live shows

[@sanctuary_polaris]

From my friend who watched their channel its basically friends and family that would cause issues if they fired/let them go. Which again bad planning on their part

[@sailormarsrx]

17:15 LMAOOO "i skip every vid that has you in it" TOOK ME OUT BYE 😭😭😭😭😭

[@lmaowolf]

And with over 2500 likes! 🙈🙈🙈

[@SoManyRandomRamblings]

I can forgive the missteps. But it is the gaslighting that gives me the ick now. They clearly stated both in their video and the Variety interview that they were gonna delete the youtube backlog. To then later pretend they didn't say that at all, rather than just admit it was a bad choice, truly gives me the ick. They were already in apology mode....choosing then to cling to a lie erased the possibility of them being seen as genuine.

[@belindagritter1572]

I thought I heard them say that too. I think it was Ryan if I am not mistaken. I wonder if they deleted that from their original video right away? I lot of us remember hearing it. That’s gaslighting.

[@elijahosullivan1011]

The backlog claim was not speculation, it was fact, they stated it to Variety, and it was published in their Variety interview, and people stated they noticed backlog videos being unlisted (which I can't verify), and even the Variety article notes their original statement and then the updated statement and their immediate walking back, like glad some people found their second video genuine and feel like they can enjoy the content going forward, don't think that includes me, not only could I not afford the change, to make such a dramatic change with seemingly no foresight or warning to your audience, to lie about things like the backlog (and hide the existence of Patreon when promoting another more expensive premium service) and then ignore international audiences and costs, genuinely I hope Watcher enjoys the content they make at the costs and quality and staff scale they are making it at cause i never actively want good people to lose jobs especially in an expensive city like LA but man even a little heads up, consultation with their general audience and gradual shift would have been appreciated I think it would have made such a difference (also would have loved to know if they tried pitching to dropout or nebula the content feels perfect for those services in different ways, i think puppet history at least could have worked on dropout which is also LA based)

[@eaba1846]

they definitely back peddaled with deleting posts, people had said that they had unlisted stuff and then put them back up after everyone got upset

[@martha7157]

I’ve got a friend who didn’t know what Ryan and Shane looked like because she only listened to all of their shows. So, I guess good audio is the only higher production they’d need 😅

[@otterzrkuhl]

You're honestly the only channel i trust to talk about new internet drama cause you seem to have a level headed approach

[@fluffysharkdatazz9460]

3 buzzfeed guys on a couch giving some form of apology… Deja vu

[@craigjenkins5434]

At least it was for something they did rather than the actions of an ex friend/coworker

[@fluffysharkdatazz9460]

@@craigjenkins5434 purr

[@sfdko3291]

SOFIYA WOULD NEVER

[@deano8894]

This is like comparing a burning forest to a burning house lol

[@fluffysharkdatazz9460]

@@deano8894 I would argue the tri guys weren’t even on fire. They just had one bad egg they felt they needed to apologize for

[@bignatemcbc]

"Why did you think your video would do better on a platform that doesn't have a built-in audience?" What they're saying without saying it is, "whether you watch the video or not, we already got your money, so we don't have to care."

[@Blackjack1317]

What I hated most about their update-videos and subsequent statements was that they framed like "If you dont WANT to continue watching, thanks for everything". Like, guys, I do want to keep watching, I just can't afford to. Also the fact that they now have three shows that are basically just about expencive food. Dish Granted and Worth a Shot were formats where they'd cook a dish or mix a drink with no limit on how much money they could spend. So they're struggling to pay their staff propperly, so they hire two more guys and start a show that is literally about spending as much money as possible, and now they want us to pay for it? Someonce clearly lost sight of their fanbase...

[@harryfailsgaming1246]

I swear to god Safiya is staying the shining light post-Buzzfeed is great but also stressing me out

[@Purplefoxsoul]

meanwhile Quinta Brunson became the Beyoncé to Buzzfeed’s Destiny’s Child and is chilling with 2 Emmys and a Golden Globe

[@craigjenkins5434]

Some of the Try Guys are ok... and Quinta is doing really well

[@MangoMintMickey]

Kristen and Jen are doing well too! I watch a lot of their food reviews because they help me not buy food that I won’t like lol

[@standdownrobots_ihaveoldglory]

Quinta came from buzzfeed?!?! Safiya is infinitely likable but I would worry her content would be too repetitive. And, tbh,usually kinda pointless. Overall, it’s painful to watch ex buzzers as they ignore the value that production & marketing brought, and persist in their belief that the public clamors for them.

[@justalula7151]

There are a bunch of post-buzzfeed ppl who are doing great. I know Safiya is the prime example most people mention and she is the most popular, but shes rlly not the only one. The others are doing other projects too tho I do have to say most of the ones doing well are the women (with the slight exception of the current try guys tho YB who was also part of buzzfeed is also there).

[@najhoant]

You know what else has 25 employees (actually 26, but still)? Hello Games, and they alone made No Man's Sky and spent ages improving it and winning back trust when people were disappointed by the original version

[@hazelnuiit]

Honestly, hello games is such a good example of a company learning and growing from their past mistakes/terrible decisions and then continuing to be a better company. That's the kind of growth and apology communities want to see. It's easy to just apologize and say you're going to do better but to actually make good on those promises without relapsing back is rare.

[@allanpeter7700]

Presumably hello games never meant to create a bad game, it was just overhype and massively underdelivered within the time of the release

[@Levyathyn]

Hello Games is a shit example. They 100% meant to create a bad game, and if anyone ever tells you otherwise, just remember that 100% of the media PR leading up to the release of No Man's Sky was all fraud. Not doctored, not edited, no exaggerated--it was pure fabrication. Some of the 'gameplay' videos they showed during interviews with Sean Murray were, in fact, not even made in the game's engine or using it, featuring assets made exclusively for the showcase, and in some cases with features that are STILL not in the game eight years later. NMS has had defenders since day one, when half of the game's players couldn't get on and play and the other half were met with one of the worst, least finished games ever made, pushed out by a company with a track record of lies so massive if they had been headquartered in the US they would have been criminally liable for fraud, with a release so fucked up and provably malicious that it forced the seven biggest digital game retailers on the internet to literally redo their entire suite of refund policies just to host all of the people defrauded by Hello Games. These defenders have been trying to gaslight people about the game being fun and attempting to set it up as a maligned dark horse, an indie game scraping by however it can, and it took many years of heavy updates and complete overhauls to get to a place to where it's been a successful campaign--which leads us to these comments. Hello Games is an unfortunate, sinister company that never intended to get called out on under-developing their sole claim to fame, and if the company ever ever wanted to make money or push out future games fixing No Man's Sky was their only choice--they should not be lauded for crossing the finish line of a race they never even intended to enter, some nearly six years after it first went on sale, and they do not deserve the chance to be praised going forwards until they manage to do more than climb back up the drop into hell they created themselves to meet their biggest fans at what is, in the end, still a neutral position. Hello Games is not your friend; they will not make a better game if you cover up for them like this, nor will they reward you for your loyalty. They are a company who set out to screw people over, and did right by customers years later only once they failed to do so--being a smaller company doesn't change that. Lowering the bar to make Hello Games out to be anything close to a good example or a good company will only make such intentionally poor releases more possible in the future.

[@Mooshhyy]

​@@LevyathynSweetie, are you okay? I think you've spent way too much time on the internet to be holding this type of grudge against a game studio that made mistakes and rectified them over time...

[@avelynn5976]

​@@Levyathyn least deranged gamer rage moment lol

[@leesbianism]

"people who are artists who are not even watching this video right now, i am being used as a podcast" was a WILD sentence to hear while i was literally drawing and listening to this video as a podcast.

[@Rynekha]

My biggest confusion with this whole situation is that it could have been so easily avoided. With social media and KZbin content creation, you literally have a direct line to your audience. You can straight up ask them what they want. If they had just put out a poll or a tweet and said hey guys, what would you think about a new watcher streaming service, everyone would’ve said no and they could’ve looked into other options. They’re trying to be a tv show when the audience wants an authentic low production web series. They’re focusing on the wrong thing and alienating they’re audience because of it

[@rioiswright]

I loved buzzfeed unsolved because it felt like you were really there with them- I think something that Watchers’ “version” of unsolved (though it’s hard to compare since they’re just so different content wise) lacks is that feeling of it being relatable and more vlog-like. The videos where it had those cut-to-black gags and seemed like it was filmed on a shoestring budget was so charming and pulled people in so much cuz they really took you on the adventure with them, a feeling a high budget operation like theirs just can’t seem to replicate. I’ve never been super into Watcher, and if they don’t ever make actual unsolved-type true crime series, the it’ll probably stay that way

[@Weout-c6i]

I tot agree Buzzfeed felt more idk immersive like we were with them as explorers, I don’t really have the same vibe with the Watcher series on their ghost expeditions they probably went into more centralized mode where their public personalities were more defined, which was probably a bad idea they should have kept the same vibe and maybe tweaked it into more on creativity side where fans get to pick and choose where they investigate idk..just a example…whatever I still like them but vibe feels bad man

[@Cheddarcheese-]

They just enter the house and insult the "Ghosts". The chemistry feels almost scripted and Ryan goes crazy too often.

[@blueskybelyr]

@@Cheddarcheese- exactly like it started as a joke and became this weird parody of themselves. the episodes are waaaay too long as well

[@tjfm2456]

God I'm so glad you talked about people pinning it all on Steven. It's so weird how people have such a parasocial attachment to Shane/Ryan that they're willing to absolve them of all responsibility. Do you think they'd let Steven make this huge of a business decision FOR them? Steven is their CEO in title but they obviously still make decisions regarding their creative direction. Like you said, they are GROWN MEN. Steven has somewhat of a dubious reputation among even his own fanbase so it's easy to villainize him, but we don't actually know what went on behind the scenes.

[@PyxeledGenesis]

Definitely all their faults, but imo Steven deserves a (slight) majority of the blame. It's obvious he's blowing their money away, and I wouldn't be surprised if he convinced Shane and Ryan to do this. They're absolutely all responsible, but the reason people blame Steven more is that Shane and Ryan always had an anti capitalistic outlook on life, it's a complete 180 for them to ditch their less fortunate fans

[@buffoonery4649]

It just really rubs me the wrong way that they have series all about eating expensive food and travelling when they are supposedly struggling financially. It can't be cheap to send them all across America and in some cases internationally to eat these hundred to thousand cost meals. Am I a bit bias because I prefer the horror elements more on their channel? Yes, definitley. But I can't see a world where travelling to expensive places to buy expensive food is cheaper or more profitable than sitting in a basement talking about some strange UFO sightings.

[@buffoonery4649]

As an example; it would be a bit like if Amanda said "sorry guys I'm not really getting enough money and I don't wanna do more sponsorships even if I'm literally going bankrupt, so I'm setting up swellentertainment tv website for only $5 a month!" right after travelling to 30 different countries to watch F1 in person. Like yes, great content for us but if the only way you can do something like this is force subscribers to pay more then MAYBE something is off about your financial decisions lol.

[@semoremo9548]

The thing is, the only thing Steven has going for himself in terms of content is the luxury food stuff, and of course he's not going to want to give that up to save the company he's the literal CEO of. I'm guessing that's part of the reason why they're going with this approach.

[@katiehope2132]

13:21 to the whole trending page comment, I am on KZbin like every day. I never know what’s on the trending page. I exclusively stick to my homepage and my subscriptions. What a funny way to do analytics when your fan base is (was) very large and loyal

[@bi_cycle]

The worst part about the apology for me was that they clearly could of done the pay-for-early-viewing thing from the start. Makes them just seem greedy.

[@panda.with.a.pencil]

Right?? Like, I wouldn't pay, but I also know that other people LOVE that kind of stuff!

[@-xxMelissaxx-]

They said in another vid that the company almost went under during covid but Steven's decisions saved it btw. I don't think they did this out if greed, I think they did this out of desperation to try to save themselves from eventually having to fire people or possibly go under if they don't make changes to their business model. Everyone wants to immediately jump to greed instead of trying to understand other possible reasons for why they tried to do this.

[@Anngrl69]

@@-xxMelissaxx-I get where you’re coming from because that’s how I feel emotionally and I’m sympathetic to Watcher. But I believe the expectation is they make hard decisions and likely lay off staff if they can’t afford their current production.

[@plumbunnii]

@@-xxMelissaxx- I understand you, but people are also quick to pin the blame on Steven alone. They're all adults who are capable of thinking ahead, and instead of talking to their fanbase to get ideas, they went full steam ahead with their decision and only rolled it back when the backlash came out. With the ways they earn income, they're fine. They could have just reduced production costs and gone back to a simpler video format. But they made a bad decision, and they have to learn from it. I sympathize with making mistakes, but I don't sympathize with the way they handled this.

[@katrinathecatlady]

Honestly I didn’t realize that KZbin premium helps when videos are age restricted and demonitized. Makes me feel better about having it

[@Creampuf1977]

KZbin goes out of its way to unnecessarily age restrict and demonetize videos. How can anyone feel morally inclined to financially support these practices?

[@diethylmalonate]

​@@Creampuf1977 my convenience is more important than being morally pure in the eyes of people like you Also providing traffic to the site is financial support in itself

[@poot-poot]

@@Creampuf1977cannot cope with ads

[@Vulpix298]

@@Creampuf1977 KZbin premium is the only way I can watch ad-free on my tv, because I can't download adblockers there. Plus youtube/google's war on adblockers meaning they're constantly being shut down or needing updates to block some new code youtube have added to override them. It's a mess, but YT Premium is just easy even if it is overpriced.

[@dm2060]

Stop using YT altogether then ​@@Creampuf1977

[@antoninas.2491]

I loved Buzzfeed Unsolved. I tried watching Watcher and I didn't like it. Why? Because it was overproduced for me and I felt like so much is happening on the screen that I had to actively look at it every second of the video not to miss anything

[@SoManyRandomRamblings]

Agreed. I also felt the vibe wasn't as fun.

[@captainhope]

I dip in for Puppet History because I enjoy learning about that stuff and the vibe is enjoyable enough that I'm happy to stick around. But the rest of it lost the charm for me, can't pinpoint why but it just doesn't strike the same joy that BuzzFeed Unsolved did

[@littleowleyes]

@@captainhope Oh same for me! I watched Unsolved regularly, but the only thing I follow on watcher is Puppet History, and that's fully more for the history than anything else. I get the fun side plots and wild story line, but it's not my favorite.

[@ainsleyking7372]

Part of the problem from their confidence was that the fanbase didn't want to criticize it openly- we want the ghoul boys to succeed and we liked their personalities. Criticizing felt like a betrayal (this is a consensus on r/watchersnark) and so they felt confident (and were completely misled by whatever company/data convinced them it was possible) that they could move on. However, they clearly didn't do any quick tests or consultations with even the patrons because people quickly realized that they wouldn't pay for their content. Puppet history is so far the only consistently liked show I've seen people agree on.

[@ca-ke9493]

I agree...i only like Puppet History, all the other shows are boring but I dont comment negatively.

[@zabtesler]

This is exactly right. There was probably some dissatisfaction under the surface with Steven's presence in the shows and some of the other cooking shows he was in that was just bubbling under the surface. It happens a lot--while a lot of times people will invent reasons they "never liked" whatever person or channel gets into controversy, I'm willing to bet it happens much more often that people have negative opinions that the controversy then becomes the excuse to let out. I really loved Unsolved and even watched a lot of their shows starting out, especially Puppet History, but over time I've just fallen off. The series' started to feel samey and overly long and not very entertaining. But I never left a bad comment, or anything like that, I just slowly left. It seems a lot of people have been that way, either with a few of the shows, or the entire channel altogether. That is not to say a lot of the sudden vitriol is excusable, I just don't think the valid negative criticisms all came completely out of nowhere because people are mad; they simply felt, for whatever reason, that they couldn't or didn't want to express their issues.

[@aceof_frost]

I think the old saying is true here "trust is easy to lose and hard to regain" - personally, I think their apology was the best they could have done. But they have definitely lost the trust of so many of their fans and it'll take a long time - if ever - to regain it. I don't know if I want to watch their content again after this, it feels just gross all around.

[@haileybubs9851]

This exactly, coming from a long term fan I’m not sure I’ll ever trust them

[@-xxMelissaxx-]

They realized their mistake, reversed it and nothing changed. If you can't forgive them for a business and take it personal - that's on you.

[@STORMDAME]

@@-xxMelissaxx- They are a business. I am a customer. As a customer I need to be able to trust the business to provide their service going forward. It seems they are having some financial difficulties and have handled it terribly. That doesn't inspire me to invest my hard earned money in their subscription service. The trust issues aren't personal.

[@FefiBurgos]

The "apology", in other words, was "we didn't think so many of you were so poor or so tight with your dollars, so if you are not paying the new platform and unsubscribing from YT, we need to say something to bring you back". The "for you" repeated ad nauseam and that they just wanted to pay fair wages to their staff (as if there is no other way for that to happen that we paying them directly) is what feels so bad, that kind of manipulation, guilt tripping, and also gaslighting regarding what they said, is what makes me not going back to watch them. That's what has changed. There is a ton of other people and can go and support with my clicks, time and subscriptions, more transparent or at least straightforward.

[@bessofhardwick9311]

@@FefiBurgos Yes, exactly. Manipulation, guilt-tripping and gaslighting are three techniques used by narcissists and other types of abusers to get what they want. They aren't qualities that make me like show presenters.

[@zaraamir9165]

Not me literally packing up my house after being evicted, listening to Amanda in the background while she goes "I could be filming on a potato!" I've reached the point where I actively avoid videos that put anything up on the screen because I never watch video anymore, I just listen.

[@wen33]

Same! It bothers me when videos have a significant amount of written/visual content that isn’t spoken out loud. I click off so fast

[@Kfroguar]

God, that sucks. I'm sorry you are going through that, it can be a horrible process. I hope things turn around for you. Hang in there ❤️

[@Hessed3712]

I’m so sorry that happened. You will get a better place and land on your feet soon. Sending a virtual hug.

[@085cur1ty]

yes same unless i’m sitting down to eat and watch a video i mostly listen to stuff. it’s like having the radio on while working. i also think from an accessibility pov it’s better to have all the information you need in audio for blind people/subtitles for the deaf

[@ChelseaCallahan]

@@wen33 this is super interesting! I've always assumed because youtube is a video platform that creators should cater their content to that.. otherwise why not just have a podcast? But if ppl just wanna listen then that's easier for everyone lol

[@diddles3383]

"people loved their low production videos" you hit the nail on the head, I quickly lost interest with their watcher content, it just feels too polished (also, the gall to ask for more money when they're so bad at budgeting)

[@watcherinthewings4093]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who gave it a shot and completely lost interest. I don't know what it is about the new style of ghost adventures, but there's something genuinely charming about the old stuff that doesn't translate to their new attempts towards polish. I tried two or three episodes and gave up.

[@perfectlyhopeless]

As someone who found Watcher via Puppet History, which is just a muppet with guests and some fancy graphics with delightful historical storytelling, and with so much of that show in particular made during lockdown so they literally just did some editing of a Zoom call, I care so little about high production value as long as I'm being entertained. I came for the chemistry of the characters (even if it's unscripted, they are putting on a performance for us) and to occasionally learn something! I'm not interested in a Travel Channel knockoff where they tour the globe, but it seems like they are and that's so wild to me

[@lildeadgirl1443]

I think it’s also important to mention the slap in the face that was the countdown. We had a week where we were given the url for the new site and it was a big countdown clock to something fun and exciting…and then it was this

[@DrawciaGleam02]

So...the hype backfired???

[@oxymoronman]

High production value doesn't automatically mean that the content is better. Substance and Style are exclusive to each other, they can gel magically, but they don't need one another.

[@arghleblarghle]

Okay Paul Hollywood 😂 (You're right though!)

[@faeriegraver]

For me a lot of their stuff was more charming and entertaining to me the lower budget it has been. The only thing I have kept up with to any degree is Puppet History. While the content has all been to a certain level of production values, I seem to have been keeping up with it less the less "amateur" it's been. I used to watch Unsolved frequently and I've stopped watching the replacement shows entirely. I didn't even know the new names were Ghost Files and... Mystery Files (?!) until this all happened. I absolutely have zero interest in the "Worth It" successor, or anything similar. I never watched Worth It in the first place. I think a lot of people who were actually fans, rather than just random subscribers like me, have realised that they don't actually like the direction the channel is taking, they aren't interested in any high budgets, but they just enjoy the banter. I would be seriously annoyed if I'd been paying money on Patreon or gone to see them on tour or brought an $80 hoodie. But it also seems there's a lot of more casual viewers like me who might not feel wronged in any way because they've not been spending money, but might also realise they've not been all that invested in the content for whatever reason.

[@EE-in7su]

Oh, I LOVED the black screen with just captions of them talking and wheezing! Thanks for that reminder! I used to watch them for that, but then I didn't see videos from them anymore and sorta forgot it existed; now I know why.

[@awk_spice]

I’ve been a fan of the ghoul boys for a long time. I happily followed them from Buzzfeed to Watcher but like most, can’t afford an $80 plushie of the Professor (host of puppet history) I pay for KZbin premium and rewatch all their existing content to support. I have a (wheeze) sticker on my laptop as a momento of the good ole days because that to me was their prime. We do not care about production value, we didn’t ask for it. We like the chemistry between two friends doing fun stuff. The first red flag to me was learning they paid a set designer to come in a create an old 80’s basement set for their Mystery Files show. Why did this need to be outsourced and paid for? Y’all can’t go thrifting for a Garfield phone and some Knick knacks? Come on. We don’t want television caliber production, we want ghoul boy shenanigans. I’m still subscribed but this felt very tone deaf to the current climate of the world and more like a spending problem than anything else.

[@MagisterialVoyager]

That’s definitely an overkill.

[@ChrisLam]

Ex BuzzFeed producer here. Love the video! Makes me sad to see that my ex co workers seem to be getting a little lost in the sauce it seems. I enjoyed them genuinely back then.

[@DrawciaGleam02]

Oh, hi!!! 😊

[@naurrr]

RIP Buzzfeed Unsolved Shane you would have hated Watcher Shane

[@antman5358]

"goodbye the poor" had me on the floor

[@franceswithane1123]

Smosh proves that a larger production/crew CAN work with just KZbin! They offer plenty of merch but also still have exclusive live streams/shows, and guess what? It works!

[@Katalina_K]

"My audience isn't even watching me" im so so sorry amanda, but i totally only looked up when you said that. You're my art buddy!

[@ramshaimam]

What gets me is with this announcement is the fact that Watcher has some of the most entertaining sponsor segments I've ever seen. Their latest season of Mystery Files had ads with a subplot where Shane played a weird professor trying to find love after his wife left him in the form of vhs personal ads. They're all perfectly capable of making funny and charming content for their channel.

[@beatrizvieira4466]

Frankly I think a good chunk of their audience doesn’t like the watcher that much, and only continues to watch due to goodwill they acquired through buzzfeed unsolved. I know that I personally was subscribed to them for years before I realized I didn’t really like their new stuff and unsubbed. I think this change towards the new streaming platform made a lot of people reevaluate the content and their conclusion was that they missed the old, cheaper videos from the buzzfeed era.

[@jam-toast-enjoyer]

Wild to release a streaming service when a lot of people are very vocally experiencing fatigue with streaming services.

[@guardiansoulblade2673]

It also costs one dollar cheaper than Netflix with ads, people are picking Netflix with ads over them.

[@chikzdigmohawkz]

Petition for Amanda to film on a potato as a 500k subscriber celebration.

[@grimmaulkin]

How about a 2001 nokia. That has worse quality than a potato

[@kellyfroehlich5166]

I LOVE your comment about how they portray that we, as fans, should pay for their bad business decisions! Especially related to having 25 employees WHAT?!?!

[@BerryGellatina]

Making a separate comment with my thoughts as a response to your question at the end; I subscribed to Buzzfeed Unsolved and followed Shane and Ryan over to Watcher. This is where I learned about Steven, and watched the show the 3 of them host together called 'Too Many Spirit's where Steven mixes drinks for Shane and Ryan while they kick back in their back yard and drink while reading fan submitted stories. Mystery Files had a cute, ghostbusters meets MST3K new aesthetic and fun new tools for the boys, and Puppet History was not only funny and interesting, but it was great seeing Shane and Ryan banter while having Shane tell stories. In fact, when I saw Puppet Theatre, I distinctly remember being like 'oh my gosh yes, this is where I want my money to go! This is why I followed them, this is so much fun!'. I purchased merch, my mom bought merch for me, me and my best friend spent $100s to attend live shows. The only part of Watcher I never really liked tbh was the Dish Granted series, it started out really sweet and genuine with Steven learning to cook and trying to make his friends happy, but quickly turned into Steven spending thousands on ingredients alone, bringing in expensive, highly qualified guests and famous KZbinrs and had nothing to do with Steven learning to cook or make people happy anymore. Their episode where Uncle Roger came as a guest, said he wanted something 'cheap and filling' and then was served the most ostentatious dish I've ever seen comes to mind. Even now, their food content performs worse than all of the things Shane and Ryan do, so I don't know why they keep feeling the need to shoehorn in new people and guests. It really feels disingenuous, like increasing their production value and bringing in famous people or going to expensive places will earn them views, as you put it, and that combined with Shane's wife posting on her tumblr about their "$250k wedding with 4 different dresses", Shane talking about "flying first class to Chicago for a $50k venue" in their podcasts, and Steven showing off Teslas and his wife's 2nd wedding on his Instagram, it feels like they've really grown out of touch with their fanbase and why people found them so sincere and relatable.

[@margierusnak8243]

About Shane and Sara - OMFG!! I can't believe Shane at this point 😭😭 He was alwayyyyys the kind of guy to take jabs at people who flaunted their wealth and praised ppl pirating content - now you're creating an exclusive streaming platform to profit off of, in addition to the $$$ from yt? it's insane how people get so disconnected from who they were after getting some cash

[@faultyfox669]

Exactly in the same boat, followed them from BuzzFeed to Watcher, all those different shows I loved, EXCEPT the cooking content. And only now that you mention it does it become clear that Too many spirits, Puppet history, and the scary stories one are super low budget! Like, one off expenses for set up and simple animations from one animator, not to mention fans doing the writing for them, so was all the money just going on the cooking??

[@margierusnak8243]

@faultyfox669 cooking AND expenses from hiring (likely) exclusively family and friends from their vastly oversized crew 😀

[@jackystar5099]

They have to know Steven's content isn't what ppl want. I also agree with the cooking content at the beginning feeling genuine. I liked the episodes where Steven would go to ppl's houses and he would learn to cook traditional foods. Liked those but now it just doesn't seem interesting. Really I only subscribed for Shane and Ryan. Hopefully this is the wake up call they needed

[@BØØTYP0UNDER666]

it is also VERY hard for me to care about anyone crying broke when just a couple months before they where showing off a wedding where one of your CEOs had a custom hand embroidered suit, his wife had 3 wedding dress changes and it was all set in a venue that cost more to rent for a single day than median annual us income.

[@gamingwithdoublea]

You are the only person I have come across that has commented on their remark about how “if something didn’t do well on KZbin it would do well on this platform” - it was truly a goofy statement that made no sense. Why would it do well on a platform with substantially less viewers? Anyways, great work Swell, this has been the best video I have seen so far discussing this situation.

[@caitlin8274]

It would “do well” in the sense that everyone watching it has already paid $6 for it and it no longer matters how many views it gets

[@stars444]

“I could be filming on a potato…” 😂 Absolute gold. Yukon gold.

[@katykatmasters9707]

Shane’s wife’s post comes off even worse when you find out that she wore multiple wedding dresses and her and Shane’s wedding venue cost 50k……

[@cambuck2231]

I saw her post and thought, she really should have stayed out of it. Then the update happened, and I thought wow now she REALLY should have stayed out of it.

[@otterpoppin]

Shane was also at LEAST middle class (maybe upper middle class) before Buzzfeed. He talked about it on the Bad With Money podcast years ago; he's never really had to struggle to pay his bills, much less worry about other expenses. Dude is living the high life now but he kinda always had it easy. :/ Explains the entitlement.

[@willd.4808]

Translation: "creators don't deserve to be paid for their effort if they're not poor"

[@jessicag6729]

I've always wondered what she does to make money. She has a print store but I can't tell how she makes money apart from that

[@MK-ophelia]

​@@willd.4808 Found Shanes' wife y'all!

[@_cyberthreads]

"im being played as a podcast" made me actually freeze for a minute as i cleaned, playing this as a podcast wont lie lol