Historical Evidence for the Exodus from Egypt (feat Bart Ehrman) (Titus Kennedy response)

[@ramigilneas9274]

Apologist logic: -We don’t expect to find much evidence for the Exodus. -We don’t find much evidence for the Exodus. -Exodus confirmed!

[@bdnnijs192]

Sean McDowell can one up that. On AI. Based on my worldview I predict artificial humanlike consiousness is not possible. But if humans do create artificial consiousness it proves consiousness was created according to my worldview.

[@martylawrence5532]

...and you use aggressive incuriosity in looking at your opponent's evidences to come to this ad hoc conclusion.

[@ramigilneas9274]

@@martylawrence5532 The important part is that Titus Kennedy openly admits that almost all experts disagree with his interpretation of the evidence.😉

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

Absence of evidence is... evidence of...no -absence! 🥴

[@70AD-user45]

The 2nd Exodus was a historical fact though, whatever you say about the 1st one.

[@tpog1]

I love how he says that we know the pharao‘s claims are false because he claims to have done things we know to be physically impossible but when it come to the claims in the bible the same logic doesn‘t apply for some reason. :D

[@autonomouscollective2599]

There’s a story about a guy who cured blindness, raised people from from the dead, and walked on water. And that’s _TRUE!_

[@frankwhelan1715]

@@autonomouscollective2599 Taken as read .because the Bible says so.

[@autonomouscollective2599]

@luca bertani Did you not even watch the video?

[@tpog1]

@luca bertani 13:34, I was talking about Amenhotep II, an actual pharaoh and his actual claims.

[@richardscottmills]

@luca bertani 🤣 nice self-own.

[@lizd2943]

One thing that never seems to get discussed here is what the actual effects of the Exodus on Egypt should have been. A massive chunk of their population gets up and walks out with all their portable wealth. Their crops are destroyed. Their herds are decimated. Their main water source is befouled. All the firstborn sons die. The army is wiped out. Egypt would have been absolutely wrecked. And yet all the archaeological evidence we have says they were doing fine all through this period and only went into a gradual decline centuries later.

[@stevekovoc3939]

Yep. And in a significant portion of media that portrays the Exodus, Egypt is decimated by all of this. And in some versions, the pharaoh himself is killed along with his charioteers. Bear in mind that chariots in the Bronze Age were very much prized possessions of the armies of their respective nations. If the Exodus as described had happened, Egypt would probably fall into a period that would probably be known by scholars if it happened as the Egyptian Dark Ages, only to emerge as a mere shadow of its former self centuries later. To top that off, the rest of the Bronze Age world, particularly the Near East and the Mycenaeans, would've been decimated themselves. It would be like the real life Bronze Age Collapse but far more destructive, since the Egyptians were actually one of the countries who came out relatively unscathed from the Bronze Age collapse compared to the rest of the Near East. It'd be like if the United States just one day collapsed in on itself.

[@adamesd3699]

Shhh, don’t use logic when people are talking mysticism.

[@janicehussock7735]

So true Records would be all over the place. The plagues would prprobably destroy the ecosystem and entire civilization.

[@anyazubova1518]

Actually, it's not true. First, to claim anything, you need to decide whether the Bible describes the events exactly as they happened. It has been proven gazillion times that it's not the case. So, the Bible lies then? Not exactly. Any propaganda, political or religious, or both, always uses the true core to surround it with lies and manipulations. The Bible did the same. It used the historical core and surrounded it with religious and political agendas to prove the great divinity of their god and their true religion. The real, and the most interesting question should be of the nature of the true exodus, stripped from propaganda and blind beliefs in its absolute truthfulness and divinity. Was there an exodus? Yes. Why? Because it is mentioned all over the Bible, in prophets, in psalms, in Qumran nonbiblical texts...Now, was it a big event that shattered Egypt's wellbeing? I personally think so, but it's generally arguable. If it was a big event why we don't see any sign of it in Egyptian historiography? Well, as I said, first we need to determine the nature and time of the Exodus. For example, some argue, even in antiquity that it was actually about Hyksos expulsion. If so, then we do have a huge impact on Egypt, for example. On the other hand, in the 17th dynasty, Nubia almost conquered Upper Egypt, destroying most of its cities including Thebes. But we don't find anything about it but the mention of such an event in one of this dynasty general's tomb and Josephus Flavius mentions something very similar. Why we didn't know about it until the 2003 tomb inscription discovery? Because Egyptians did everything they could to cover their defeats and shout out loud about their victories even the smallest of them. Local dictators in our time do just that literally. Now, in that case, what signs should we find in Egypt if they covered their faults? Well, we should seek weird things in the reigns of their kings. For example, why would Amenhotep III build a new capital, Malkata, and his son, Akhenaten, change the religion and build a completely new capital too? You don't do that just like that without any reason. Why in Amenhotep II times there's a huge wave of "damnatio memoriae" of his officials in different ranks, but mostly high officials? Dozens of people, not just a couple. Together with officials who "survived" from Thutmose III time. Hatshepsut's damnatio memories happened most likely in Amenhotep II's earlier years rather than his father's reign...Something should happen for such a wave to be so big. To compare, the big wave of damnatio memoriae was in the 4th dynasty after the assassination of King Teti. The coup in the time of Ramesses III included a wave of trials, damnatio memoriae of officials, and executions. And no, scholars don't have answers to this wave of cancel culture in Amenhotep II time. They just say: "Well, it's a common practice". And they're right, it's a normal practice after SOMETHING HAPPENS! Thutmose IV, the son of Amenhotep II says he "renews" the cult of Amun and also "exalts evil" from the temples in Heliopolis. You don't do "exaltation of evil" if there's no evil, right? Thutmose III purified a temple in Heliopolis when one of the walls fell down after the floods. But he didn't mention "evil". So, we can understand that by "purifying" Thutmose IV means he built something instead of something ruined, and not only that but there was something "Evil" inside, which usually means usurpation or another religious practice. But what was it? Why did Amenhotep III, his son, build over a thousand (if more than 700 were found there were many more) Sekhmet statues, with polished legs. Sekhmet, the goddess of pestilence and healing...You don't do that together with moving your capital to a brand new built from-scratch capital if nothing happens... I can go on and on...But the thing is there are signs of some massive events in the 18th dynasty, not in the 19th dynasty, exodus as written in the Bible didn't happen, but nevertheless, the historical exodus did happen and it takes courage and unbiased views to see it.

[@pancakepeak]

As far as I’m concerned, the Exodus is essentially the Israelite Aeneid. A fantastical foundational story for a culture-nation with heavy themes of divine intervention that portray a narrative of a people destined for greatness as they originate as a refugee people making their home in a faraway place, with inklings of the future already showing. For the Romans, the Aeneid establishes a mythic foundation for their struggle with Carthage, and for the Israelites, the other peoples of Canaan. In reality in both cases, the less than exhilarating truth is that both peoples arose gradually and peacefully as a culture from the local populations of their respective regions.

[@pansepot1490]

Agreed, a part from the “peacefully” bit. Maybe I am cynical but I am inclined to trust the myths when they describe constant warring with neighbors.😅

[@TheDizzleHawke]

Good point. It’s like King Arthur with England.

[@bartbannister394]

The Aeneid is based on a real event.There really was a trojan war. The exodus is bullshit from the word go.

[@blargblarg7875]

@Hitler was a conservative Christian MCU has better writing.

[@ResidentialEvil]

@@blargblarg7875 Better characters too.

[@lnsflare1]

I mean, even if there *were* a handful of chariot wheels at the bottom of a sea within walking distance of the headquarters of a major army that used chariots, how would that be evidence that *an entire army being led by 600ish chariots* were instantly crushed/drowned by divine fiat? It's like saying that finding a car at the bottom of the San Francisco Bay is proof that Magneto tore the Golden Gate Bridge up and moved it into position to become a walkway to Alkatraz as depicted in the holy work X-Men 3: The Last Stand.

[@stevenjohnson4190]

Only wheels ? No chariots, metal work , studs, rivets, armour, Skeltons... I'm convinced..not .

[@DesGardius-me7gf]

TBH, I actually cut Dr. Kennedy a break here, because he does say that evidence he has isn’t conclusive, and that the coral formations aren’t chariot parts.

[@lnsflare1]

@@DesGardius-me7gf I'm just speaking against that "argument" in general, not this particular apologist who doesn't hold to it.

[@Ponera-Sama]

A lot of what Titus argues are attempts to minimize the alleged events of Exodus (like saying there were less slaves at the time and so forth) specifically to excuse the lack of large-scale documentation of these events. He's kind of missing the point when he says that, because even if the amount of Hebrew slaves that escaped Egypt was small enough to not be recorded, the events of the Nile turning to blood, the entire kingdom being covered in darkness for several days, and every firstborn in Egypt dropping dead overnight definitely would have. Only by admitting that the supernatural claims in the book were embellishments can you get any mileage from this argument.

[@DesGardius-me7gf]

@@Ponera-Sama He _could_ use the Ipuwer Papyrus as evidence for the plagues, but the problem is that it’s a copy of an older piece of Egyptian apocalyptic literature from the time of the Middle Kingdom. Ironically, the Ipuwer Papyrus is proof of the Bible’s copying.

[@maxsalmon4980]

That 'having an anti-supernatural bias' is considered an unfair prejudice is all I really need to know about what's considered evidence by the church crowd.

[@TrejoDuneSea]

Yeah. If the supernatural exists, we could never tell one way or the other. It's annoying to be told the equivalent of "well you don't KNOW it doesn't exist." Well no shit, we can't tell if it's true or not. That's the whole problem!

[@djfrank68]

Yeah. I feel no need to apologize or try to hide my bias against the supernatural. My default position is that it doesn't exist.

[@drlegendre]

Whoever invented the notion of "anti-supernatural bias" was a genius propagandist.

[@Nymaz]

My question is do we get to turn around and accuse theists of having an "anti-supernatural bias" because they don't believe in the historicity of stories of Zeus coming down from Mt. Olympus and banging everything that moves?

[@ramigilneas9274]

You will hear that mostly from Apologists who have no qualifications whatsoever… But it’s always funny when they claim that Atheists are biased for not believing in miraculous stories that only exist in a single source, don’t fit anywhere into actual history, and contradict everything what we know about how reality works.😂 But the funniest part is that the vast majority of the people who reject the miracles of the Bible are people from other religions… who totally believe that miracles are possible and indeed actually happened. So this "you just have an anti-supernatural bias“ really only works against Atheists.

[@nathanjasper512]

It's crazy that I've been listening to your channel since you had like 50k followers and now you've got one of the top biblical scholars appearing on your show regularly. Wild.

[@Paulogia]

I concur. It's wild.

[@timhallas4275]

@@Paulogia It's well deserved recognition. Your work is important to the cause of truth.

[@aazhie]

It's very awesome, I think Bart is great for collaborative work with the younger youtubers. It's important to counter the insidious manipulation tactics of those who are trying to rule by religion.

[@olavikaukamieli1314]

Of course he does. V-tubers are big nowadays. ;)

[@chibbersthesquirrel6189]

The place I learned that the Exodus never happened was actually from a college professor who was Jewish. It was during a discussion about "cultural origin myths," in the vein of Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth, and he discussed the fact that even though the Exodus didn't happen, that doesn't make it any less important to his people. It was very powerful because there were definitely some Christians in the class who were uncomfortable, but given the fact that they were face-to-face with a Jewish man saying this, they couldn't simply dismiss it.

[@__Andrew]

Yeah its kinda funny but if you polled the two groups, you would almost certainly find that more Jews do not believe Exodus was real than Christians. Pretty much every Rabbi of any renowned does not hold to the Exodus story as being literal. Years ago i was talking to a guy about Exodus and i even said to him "go to your preacher, and ask him for evidence of the Exodus" because we had been debating it for weeks (old Yahoo news story comments i think lol). He actually _DID_ talk to his preacher where he was shocked to find out the preacher told him "Exodus probably did not really happen". Yet every spring it did not stop that priest from telling the Exodus story to his followers as evidence for their faith.

[@MrShriven]

never let facts get in the way of centuries of good victimhood

[@artemisia4718]

That's because Judaism allows for greater wiggle room when it comes to Mikrah interpretation. I am a Jew and I learned in Jewish school that the Tanach is not a historical account. It describes certain historical events, like the siege of Jerusalem, but it is not literally the infallible word of some god and therefore cannot err.

[@doomdimensiondweller5627]

I don't know if it didn't actually happen then the story about how oppresed they are means nothing in that case. Couldn't Christians say the same thing about the resurrection of Christ and how even if it didn't happen it still means something to them ?

[@AbandonedVoid]

@@doomdimensiondweller5627 Secular Jesusists, some Jeffersonians, and a few strains of Christian esotericism and Christian mysticism actually do this. They don't see the literal resurrection of Christ, or even the historicity of Jesus, as important at all, but instead care about the teachings and symbolism of the gospels.

[@nagranoth_]

3:30 It's hilarious that they're saying "Of course there's evidence, they're just not looking for it!" But then also say that you shouldn't expect any evidence, because they know there isn't actually any evidence. It's one or the other buddy.

[@harrycooper5231]

I was checking out Biola University's mission statement etc., and if Sean or Titus started questioning the bible, they would have to leave their jobs.

[@brianpeterson8908]

That's a major problem with many of these so called 'biblical' scholars. They work at religious institutions that demand they not follow the evidence but shoehorn the evidence into the bible. You also have the problem with biblical scholars that if they too are believers they aren't going to sabotage their own religious beliefs. A Christian isn't going to look at the story of Jesus and say "this has no archaeological or witness support so the chances of it being a myth are strong". He's would be saying his religion is a lie.

[@kosgoth]

Statements of faith are statements of intellectual dishonesty. WLC has signed it as well.

[@danielbond9755]

@@kosgoth It isn't like WLC has ever displayed intellectual honesty anyway.

[@havable]

Churches hate free speech and that is why they are trying to ban every book that doesn't promote white supremacy.

[@snooganslestat2030]

​@@danielbond9755 Haha, good point!

[@fepeerreview3150]

FIRST question for Dr. Kennedy. Biola University is a Christian university with a "statement of faith" required of its faculty. It also has clearly defined theological positions stated on its website. "The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are without error or misstatement in their moral and spiritual teaching and record of historical facts." My question - Dr. Kennedy, if you studied the evidence and came to the conclusion that the Old Testament account of Moses and the exodus was completely unsupported by evidence and that it was unlikely such evidence would come to light, and consequently could only conclude that the Bible account was extremely unlikely to be a correct account of history, would you lose your job and income?

[@13shadowwolf]

Dr Kennedy is openly working for an organization that is completely ok with ignoring any evidence that doesn't lead them back to their god-claim. The Discovery Institute is made up of propagandists, not historians or scientists. They are not honest people.

[@billcook4768]

The ancient Egyptians were really good at certain things. Building big stone monuments for one thing. And collecting taxes. They kept extensive and detailed tax records and there’s nothing in those records consistent with millions of Hebrew slaves living for generation after generation.

[@danielbond9755]

Much less suddenly leaving.

[@LisaAnn777]

It was all covered up because they wanted to hide the truth of GOD!

[@allangibson8494]

Actually even the Bible doesn’t say the Hebrew’s were slaves for generations. On the Egyptian side the only building sites with evidence of forced labour was Amarna - the new capital constructed by Akhenaten (Tutankhamen’s father) where multiple skeletons of youths showing signs of deaths from overwork. A the same time a Semitic city in the Nile Delta, Avaris was depopulated and abandoned (and much later replaced by Rameses II with a new city in the same location PiRameses). Akhenaten’s reign was blotted from the historical record starting with his son Tutankhamen (which was why Tutankhamen’s tomb wasn’t found - his simple existence was obliterated after his death). So things happened in 13th Century BC that are not well documented.

[@danielbond9755]

@@allangibson8494 OK, but that city didn't have a population of millions in the 13th century BCE, so the point stands. The sudden depopulation of roughly half of the entire Egyptian population would have left some kind of record. And Akhenaten wasn't completely blotted from the record, or else we wouldn't know anything about him, when we clearly do. Yes, there were frequent attempts by successors to erase the records of their predecessors, but in most cases the sheer number of records left something behind for us to find. The reason Tutankhamen was forgotten wasn't because his father was forgotten, but because he had a short reign (not as much time to create records), and was succeeded by someone outside his family line who needed to shore up his own support, and didn't want reminders of the dead dynasty.

[@allangibson8494]

@@danielbond9755 Avaris was the capital of lower Egypt under the Semitic Hyksos (1650 - 1550BC). The Hyksos were conquered by Ahmose I and driven out of Egypt… Josephus (a millennium and half later) referenced the Hyksos as being Jewish. So it depends on which timeline you uses. The Egyptians under Rameses did similar expulsions with the Peleset (proto Palestinians) in 1150BC into southern Canaan.

[@sirequinox4874]

Archaeologists have found the remains of prehistoric campfires. I think a large population wandering around a desert for forty years would have left considerable traces of their presence.

[@DesGardius-me7gf]

Precisely.

[@jeremypnet]

Not least, quite a lot of them would have died over a forty year period. Where are the burials?

[@InigoMontoya-]

@@jeremypnet they ate them. Manna was the original Soylent Green.

[@LisaAnn777]

If god made man out of dirt, then why is there still dirt?

[@808bigisland]

This area is traversed for 2 million years and wholly covered in campfireash and sabretooths dildoes and humanoid cummm.

[@blackismyfavoritecolor869]

You would think millions of people wandering around in a desert for 40 years they would leave some trace.

[@InigoMontoya-]

They practiced “pack it in, pack it out.”

[@jamesfarquhar8507]

God made them wander bc he wanted the generation that made a golden calf to die out, he said only their children would ever see the promised land, so they should have found over a million bodies.

[@JosephKano]

@@jamesfarquhar8507 deserts are really good at preserving things.

[@rayxav]

@@InigoMontoya- including with their feces, animal bones, unusable clothing and especially their dead! They carried grandma and grandpa around for 20 to 40 years so they wouldn’t “harm” the desert ecosystem!

[@SilverMKI]

Just a bunch of rubbish (stories) :P

[@ajaxwillis3962]

Even when I considered myself a Christian, the Moses story always throw me. This is a good manifestation of my thoughts.

[@VioletJoy]

Many stories threw me when I was a believer, including this one. Side note: One nagging question I had at the time was why God didn't choose to just *POOF* enemies out of existence, but instead chose a bloody way of doing it.

[@ajaxwillis3962]

@@VioletJoy that did always get me too.

[@stultusvenator3233]

Noah is worse

[@ajaxwillis3962]

@yeah ?

[@ajaxwillis3962]

@yeah I am confused as to what that statement has to do with my comment or the response to my comment.

[@InigoMontoya-]

Regardless of the historical accuracy of the story, I still refuse to wear cotton/poly blend clothing, eat a cheeseburger, eat shrimp, or let my menstruating wife sleep in the house. It’s just common sense.

[@ziploc2000]

Don't forget to poop away from where you cook, sleep and eat.

[@utubepunk]

That's just science!

[@johnnehrich9601]

Yes, and when I cook a kid in its mother's milk, I keep it to a simmer, never bringing it up to a boil.

[@lainiwakura1776]

@@johnnehrich9601 Sounds like the person who wrote that part just preferred slow cooked kid.

[@woollyrhinoceros6091]

Menstruating women can still live in the same room as their husband, just not the same bed btw But they can’t touch each other at all

[@markrothenbuhler6232]

The smartest thing the author of Exodus did was to never name the pharaoh of Egypt. That way, who can try to pin them down for the actual event?

[@InigoMontoya-]

It was “The Unknown Pharaoh.” He always wore a paper bag over his head, so his true identity was never known.

[@dawoifee]

@@InigoMontoya- A Papyrus Bag.

[@stefanlaskowski6660]

They may legitimately not known the name of the current pharaoh(s). He might have just been Ramses, or some other Egyptian dynastic name, or even simply known by some title such as Son of Ra. After all, can you name the current emperor of Japan?

[@michaelsommers2356]

I would guess that the author didn't name a particular pharaoh, because he didn't know any of their names.

[@InigoMontoya-]

@@michaelsommers2356 , Moses was the alleged author, and he met the man face to face on several occasions. If he couldn’t remember the name, can we trust his recollection of the other events?

[@Ponera-Sama]

A lot of what Titus argues are attempts to minimize the alleged events of Exodus (like saying there were less slaves at the time and so forth) specifically to excuse the lack of large-scale documentation of these events. He's kind of missing the point when he says that, because even if the amount of Hebrew slaves that escaped Egypt was small enough to not be recorded, the events of the Nile turning to blood, the entire kingdom being covered in darkness for several days, and every firstborn in Egypt dropping dead overnight definitely would have. Only by admitting that the supernatural claims in the book were embellishments can you get any mileage from this argument.

[@fre2725]

True. The point of the story we have is that Yahweh ruined Egypt, an event that their history would be unlikely to miss. I have heard some try to link the Santorini-Thera eruption with the Exodus to account for the ten plagues, but I don't know how you could make that work with the chronology.

[@ShinyAvalon]

Meh. The Hebrews wouldn't be the first to claim that a few perfectly natural disasters were actually acts from a vengeful God against their enemies. So maybe there's a bloom of red algae in the Nile, which drove out some frogs and killed some fish, and pretty soon there's diseases going round, and some children die (and maybe the Hebrews' dietary rules save _their_ kids from catching the same things). So a few hundred Hebrews decide to take advantage of all the confusion and beat feet away from Egypt. They make off with food and supplies, so they get chased. Maybe they cross some wetlands that chariots can't really traverse. A few generations later, it's a grand tale of Divine Retribution, with a stirring, dramatic conflict between two leaders, and a series of immense disasters (bumped up to the significant number Ten). Waters that go a bit reddish become a River of Blood; a sickness that kills those with immature immune systems becomes an Angel of Death; and the small party of Egyptians who got their wheels stuck in the mud have become a great army drowned in a vast sea by the Power of God. Edit: and the Plague of Darkness was just a sandstorm. _Booyah!_ I qualify as a Biblical scholar now, right...? LOL.

[@thehumanistisin9699]

What concerns me more than pseudoscience perpetuators is audiences that do not exhibit a healthy level of skepticism. Question any and all positive claims, no matter who is making it.

[@user-gk9lg5sp4y]

That's some World Class mental gymnastics right there

[@mr.zafner8295]

Man this was a really well-edited video. Super tight. Way to go bud

[@Paulogia]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@jonr9467]

It's always great to listen to what Bart has to say. He has a gift for teaching.

[@Mar-dk3mp]

Is it that another western godless and souless theory that Western godless and souless idiots believe in because a western godless and souless person who does not even believe in the Bible say so? Why you western godless and souless idiots are obsessed with the Bible??? Why do you even care if you do not believe in? Why you always talk about God (when you do not have God, we do)??? Are you the typical western godless and souless idiots that only wants follow your own intincts but they change all the time??? Are the western godless idiots who thinks he will be NOTHING once death??? Why only westerns say such things???? If it is yes, just shut up and start to believe in God. Why? Because you have no ashemed to deny God How to pity you? But May God bless you.

[@jonr9467]

@@Mar-dk3mp We care because a billion people do believe in it and it conditions the way they treat everyone else around them. Because it makes them feel justified to treat everyone else like trash (like you're doing right here). If your god exists let him defend himself, like when Joash challenged Baal to defend himself after Gideon destroyed his altar. He won't do anything though, cause he never did anything, the ones doing the work are always humans.

[@joe5959]

​@@jonr9467flag (remove the l) response

[@MythVisionPodcast]

This was epic Paul!

[@Paulogia]

Thank you, sir!

[@AJansenNL]

Back when I was a believer I said plenty of ignorant things like these. But boy, am I glad I was never caught on camera, exposing my shame for years to come and thousands and thousands to see.

[@michaelsommers2356]

In his book _The Long Range Desert Group_ W.B. Kennedy Shaw recounts exploring the Western Desert between the wars, and at one point tells of finding a Roman camp right on the surface of the desert. So finding a trace of an alleged exodus would not be impossible.

[@brandonwells1175]

Exodus/Shemot doesn't name the Pharaoh, which is our first clue.

[@Hgulf]

Bart Ehrman seems to be very happy every time. 😃👍

[@KaiHenningsen]

I think cartoon Bart would be much more recognizable if the ends of his mouth turned down instead of up - compare to the photo. Doesn't stop him from laughing.

[@ThEjOkErIsWiLd00]

Can yah blame him? It's rather difficult to not laugh at the claims of apologists.

[@davidcrowley1951]

Bart Ehrman is not happy. he chortles and mocks. He enjoys his feeling of intellectual superiority.

[@bencopeland3560]

I find his giggling insufferable and typically regard people who communicate that way to be covering for something

[@LindaLinda80Linda]

@@Hgulf He sure does giggle a lot! Nervous tic?

[@psyseraphim]

I love the interactions between yourself and professional academic scholars and yes I absolutely do include Dr Josh in the same category as Dr Ehrman IMO even though Dr Josh himself would probably baulk at the idea.

[@drlegendre]

I've never before seen "balk" spelled with a "u".. like "caulk" or something.

[@erictaylor5462]

I actually knew Moses. He was a guy who lived across the street and next door. He was a black guy and his wife was light skinned black. She liked coffee and always seemed to be drinking it. I asked her one time why she always drank coffee and she told me that she was white, like me when she got married but she wanted to be black like her husband. It must have been working because she was already much darker than me, but much lighter than her husband. The couple had all grown children but they had a swimming pool in the back yard that they sometimes let us kids play in. I really liked Moses and his wife. He was old, but he really didn't seem old enough to have lead the Exodus.

[@DesGardius-me7gf]

My view on the Exodus story is that it was probably based on the fact that the Land of Canaan (modern Israel, Syria and Lebanon) was an Egyptian province for 400 years.

[@stefanlaskowski6660]

I've always figured that the supposed slavery of the Israelites in Egypt was one Hebrew clan of a few hundred people who fell on hard times and sold themselves into slavery, not the entire tribe. And with tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of slaves in Egypt, the arrival or departure of a few hundred was insignificant.

[@dangouge5281]

This bit of it actually makes the Exodus account as we have it today pretty much impossible, the Israelites fled Egypt to settle in... another part of Egypt?

[@boogit9979]

The Hebrews escaped Egypt to Egypt?

[@DesGardius-me7gf]

@@boogit9979 Or as Holy Koolaid put it, “The escaped from Egypt into More Egypt.”

[@johnnydamon1612]

There should be a lot of archaeological evidence left behind over that 40 year wilderness journal.

[@stevendaddario8803]

Thanks!

[@Paulogia]

thank you, Steven!

[@lisaboban]

Every family has this kind of a story. Something funny or weird or extraordinary happens, and the details get exaggerated in the telling. And I'm not talking generational stories (though that certainly happens) but stories from my kids childhood. The fun is in the telling and the value is in the story. Nothing more supernatural than that. I expect these bible stories began similarly.

[@joshuastrobel6826]

It’s amazing how educated, motivated and brilliant people who are believers get so many things wrong because of their own confirmation bias. They want to believe so bad that they throw all of their critical thinking skills out the window when discussing matters that may contradict the beliefs of their faith.

[@johncena12366]

Becuase if there is no faith, nothing in the life matters and there is nothing to live for...

[@flolou8496]

When God is involved, the natural rules won't necessarily apply,

[@djfrank68]

The irony. He dismisses claims of Amenhottep II deeds and powers as crazy. Yet the miracles of Moses are totally legit. 🤔

[@NA-vz9ko]

Seems like he’s the one with an anti-supernatural bias. If you’re going to accept one claim of miracles despite no evidence, then you have to grant them all.

[@AbandonedVoid]

@@NA-vz9ko In fact, granting only unevidenced supernatural claims would be special pleading, so to be logically consistent you should just believe every claim other people make.

[@allangibson8494]

Look up the list of the North Korean Kim dynasty’s deed trumpeted by the North Korean media. Same thing at work.

[@luciferfernandez7094]

Well, you know, if it’s on your side it “miracle”, if it’s the other side it’s “sorcery”. An unbiased read of Exodus is cooler than Harry Potter, it has wizard stuff but like really epic.

[@richardscottmills]

Then they have the olympic level lack of self-awareness to talk about biases with a straight face. Wanting things to be true is one hell of a drug.

[@lewsouth1539]

Far from attempting to make the character “psychologically plausible”, the author(s) of Exodus repeatedly blamed God for the Pharaoh's behavior, saying that he “hardened his heart”; so the psychology of the Pharaoh is entirely irrelevant.

[@mitchellclark4377]

That jingle gives me life; bless you.

[@williamwatson4354]

If Exodus occurred as written, and Moses wrote the Pentateuch as many Christians and Jews believe, then why didn't Moses include Pharaoh's name. He was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter. Plus you would think Egyptian would be his native language.

[@samuelskinner7704]

The Egyptians believed names have power. If someone pisses you off, you erase their name. Welcome to the Bronze Age.

[@allangibson8494]

Akhenaten had his name erased… (Ditto his son Tutankhamen)…

[@samuelskinner7704]

@@allangibson8494 And Hatshepsut. There are probably others, but if you successfully erase someone from history, there is by definition not going to be any records.

[@InigoMontoya-]

His name was Voldemort, and no one was allowed to speak it.

[@rickscottisanasshole.5658]

@@allangibson8494 Except that he didn't. Even though they tried.

[@iseriver3982]

Funny how people who believe in magic are always desperate to show how their magic is verified by science and history.

[@vernonchitlen8958]

@@Lamster66 What’s claiming all matter and energy and the laws that govern them suddenly appearing uncaused from nothing that was something smaller than this sentences period? The order shown by the periodic table? The 95% missing mass-energy to explain the motion of the universe that’s labeled “dark” and that’s good enough?

[@vernonchitlen8958]

Has anyone demonstrated how the 6 basic elements separated themselves from the 98 naturally occurring elements and arranged themselves into a cell capable of evolving? Miller Urey experiments didn’t come close. They didn’t even produce a single protein or more than 12 of the 20 specific amino acids that proteins consist of. They detected 23 total of 500+ kinds and no more than 12 of the specific ones. And they cheated, they didn’t start out with 98, they skipped that part an used 3 compounds and one element that provided only carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen, that they knew amino acids consist of that some perfectly dead, dumb as rock, warm little pond, prebiotic soup or whatever managed to do. Not only that, those 4 elements of the 6 managed to form and assemble 6.8 billion of only those specific 20, in their 100% left handed forms, specifically oriented and sequenced and arranged in the 42 million proteins found in the simplest cell. So when are atheists/naturalists going to prove how even one single relevant protein emerged from the 98 naturally occurring elements without the influence of intelligence?

[@petergaskin1811]

@@Lamster66 All I would say is, It's lucky that all this happened in the late Iron Age, if it happened today, every single thing would be uploaded to Tik-Tok in seconds.

[@petergaskin1811]

@@vernonchitlen8958 You have no concept of what could happen over the span of a billion years. Don't comment on what you clearly know nothing about.

[@LindaLinda80Linda]

@@iseriver3982 The man who wrote 2001 which became a hit movie said, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Arthur C. Clarke.

[@java97]

Wasn't Canaan under the Egyptian rule during 18th and 19th dynasties? So how could Israelites have "escaped" Egypt, by relocating to Canaan from Goshen ?

[@unumatochild]

My Egyptology loving soul is cringing at the way Titus is saying these names.

[@Paulogia]

😬

[@lnsflare1]

I don't recall Pharaoh Nameless the Whatevereth being depicted as being especially arrogant, especially since his subordinates could do magic that was arguably more impressive than anything Jesus did.

[@stevewebber707]

I seem to recall that God even had to harden his heart, so that he would follow the script, and not just release the slaves.

[@lnsflare1]

@@stevewebber707 Repeatedly, yeah, so that Yahweh would have an excuse to commit genocide in order to show off to people who already worshipped him.

[@stevewebber707]

@@lnsflare1 I sort of read it more as showing off to non worshippers. Mess with my tribe and you get a genocide! Either way, God doesn't look good. In the context of a polytheistic society, I guess he needs to distinguish himself somehow. What he distinguished himself to be, is quite the problem.

[@Vishanti]

Also, to Ehrman's comment that "moses" isn't a Hebrew name but an Egyptian one: the text calls him MOSHEH, and explains why (he was 'mashah' or 'drawn out' of the water, it's common Hebrew wordplay)

[@bipolarminddroppings]

Do you not think he knows more about the subject than you? Honestly, the guy is a world renowned biblical scholar...

[@Vishanti]

@@bipolarminddroppings before you jumped in these comments, did you read the text or do any etymology whatsoever

[@artemisia4718]

So my Jewish teacher in my Jewish school was wrong when she said that Moshe (משה) was an Egyptian name given to the Hebrew boy by his adoptive Egyptian mother?

[@Vishanti]

@@artemisia4718 did your teacher conjugate that root for you or discuss the etymology at all, or connect it to any egyptian whatsoever

[@Vishanti]

@@bipolarminddroppings p.s. Ehrman is a *new testament* scholar and expert, as he describes on his own website

[@LSSYLondon]

Bart is absolutely wonderful in his lectures.

[@kweassa6204]

An excellent way to determine whether the next 30 minutes of discussions would be worth it or not, would be to see if they begin off by some method to poison the well and basically set the premise, "the academia, all of those scholars, their peer-review process, source criticism is wrong." Unfortunately, as commonly seen, Mr. Titus does just that: Begin off with an explanation as to why "the scholars are stupid, but I'm not." At that point, I just categorize such arguments a type of conspiracy theory.

[@stevewebber707]

I agree. And at least his transparency concerning those views gives us that info from the beginning.

[@jursamaj]

I mean… it *is* possible for 1 person to be right and all the rest of academia to be wrong. It took almost 50 years for Alfred Wegener's plate tectonics to be generally accepted.

[@kosgoth]

@@jursamaj You aren't wrong there, I remember hearing it also wasn't until about 20/30 years ago the majority of scholars stopped thinking Moses was based on a real person. Basically it's the old Christians that are holding up the boat, as it were though. Paradigm shifts don't normally happen without good reason. For Moses we have good reason.

[@AbandonedVoid]

@@jursamaj Yeah, but he called methodological naturalism "anti-supernatural bias." That's not a fringe theory; that's crank methodology.

[@sunvalleydrivemusic]

I have to admit, Bart is my fave guest for sure. His newsletter/blog is great, and The Great Courses stuff he does (included with Audible subscriptions for those of you who are interested) is sooooo rich with content!! Thanks Paul for the hard work and turning me onto Bart!

[@ElleryPayne]

It's Barty Time!

[@Paulogia]

🤣

[@andrewbutton2039]

Why do they feel they need to justify their belief in wacky stuff, just say "I don't care about the truth or the facts or whatever, I just want to believe it" and we will all accept that and move on.

[@richardscottmills]

Right? I've never understood the desire to make poor attempts at grounding religious claims in science or history and push the "it was magic" bits into the corners and under the rug. If it was magic it was magic. Embrace it. Far more respectable and certainly less embarrassing. Anything else feels like an admission that they themselves aren't convinced.

[@stephenolan5539]

Because they want to determine who everyone can or cannot marry. Or what days they can shop and a lit if other things.

[@ronm3245]

@@stephenolan5539 Or, if you _don't_ believe it, they want to kill you.

[@RustyWalker]

The "Sun going dark" could coincide with a volcanic eruption over in Greece and the ensuing smoke and ash cloud.

[@stevewebber707]

I'm not sure I heard that right. In the defense of claiming the exodus happened as written in the bible, he says we don't know whether the biblical numbers are accurate. Isn't there supposed to be an accurate account he's supposed to be defending?

[@soonerarrow]

Yes but apparently, this alleged inspired word of god that is also allegedly inerrant, ol' Titus here is insinuating that everybody has mistranslated that number except of him. Christians. They have their conclusions already written in stone but no good evidence, so anything that might remotely have the connotation that it "could be" will be hijacked then have some manipulation added and then trotted out as evidence but it has to be done quickly and then move on, lest someone questions it.

[@THATGuy5654]

Am I confused? I thought God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh at one point, because the guy wasn't stubborn or arrogant enough to let God do all his plagues. What does the personality of any given pharaoh matter when mind control is involved?

[@j.kaimori3848]

I've heard it said that "Perhaps God isn't that mean and God simply allowed the Pharaoh to be as hard hearted as he naturally is." But of course that brings up many problems too from a theoretical perspective. As others pointed out they're reducing the evidence requirement by reducing the number of people but what about the supposed 10 supernatural plagues that occurred on all of Egypt?

[@JohnSmith-fz1ih]

@@j.kaimori3848 Interpreting “God hardened his heart” as “God didn’t do anything at all because there was no need as the Pharaoh’s heart was already hard” is a ridiculous stretch to me. That’s an interpretation that’s basically the exact opposite of what the text actually says. If someone needs to assume the text means something totally different in order for their theory to make sense then I would dismiss the person and their theory immediately. It amazes me that people on the one hand say this text is the perfect, unambiguous word of an all powerful God, then on the other they do all sorts of mental gymnastics so they can ignore what it very clearly says!

[@j.kaimori3848]

@@JohnSmith-fz1ih usually it's the vulnerable that can't tell, children or those in dire situations. And if you believe in hell, anything is believable if it helps you avoid it.

[@JohnSmith-fz1ih]

@@j.kaimori3848 Exactly… motivated reasoning.

[@richardmooney383]

Could the "chariot wheel" corals in the Red Sea have been part of the inspiration for the Exodus story? Some might have been brought up in fishing nets, leading to a legend that Egyptian charioteers had been drowned in some supernatural event.

[@Julian0101]

@INDESTRUCTIBLE i think the coral things refers to a different hoax (the one where there is only a photo of a 'wheel' and therefore the whole moses' fable is true), not all hoaxes belong to wyatt.

[@idio-syncrasy]

If Titus takes his glasses off does he become Superman?

[@georgesparks7833]

If he takes his glasses off he becomes Wonder Woman...

[@pmtoner9852]

Dr. E is a great guest on this topic

[@ObjectiveZoomer]

I just like to say that I've been following Paul since around 2000 subscribers and I am tremendously pleased by his growth and am happy for him that he's well enough respected to get leading experts on his show like Bart. That to me is unbelievable. I've read a few of Bart's books and I've read other books that cite Bart as " the guy" on the subject of biblical historicity. I can't fully expressed how happy I am to see this

[@Paulogia]

Thank you, Phoebin

[@wesmahan4757]

Excellent. Coming from someone with a Bachelor of Theology from a bible college, and who was a missionary in Europe, and who is now an atheist.

[@witchypoo7353]

Thank you so much for making this. I have always loved Ancient Egyptian history & I always felt that this bible story made the Ancient Egyptians sound uncivilized & cruel. Which is unfortunately how Ancient Rome saw them Builders were paid & skilled workers. & most slaves were war captives. Most slaves wouldn’t have been Israelites & were not Christian. No research I’ve found has ever shown Israel & Egypt went to war in ancient times, excluding the one time y’all said Egypt conquered Israel. Meanwhile, Egypt went to war with other regions of Africa very often

[@brianpeterson8908]

I was wanting Ehrman to mention that even though we have that inscription about Israel it does not mean those were what we associate as Hebrews/Jews. Israel is named after the go El. It can be translated as Triumphant El. It would be centuries till EL and YHWH were merged in the Torah. Egypt went to war with El worshipers, not YHWH worshipers.

[@Omar-df3uk]

Not really the Bible portraits Egypt as the mapped world super power which is what it was

[@witchypoo7353]

@@brianpeterson8908 oh fascinating! I didn’t know that. Thank you for the information 😊

[@akmi1931]

Well, obviously there weren’t of been any Christians since this predated Christianity by over a 1000 years. But there’s much to this story that has been lost. The Egyptians did take slaves and some of this slaves were Semitic so the original story probably had some kernel of truth. That the Egyptians only (apparently) only conquered the Israelites once, we’re probably only talking a few thousand people at most in the reign of a single Pharaoh.

[@claudiadrew9250]

I enjoyed how you put this together. I’m pretty ignorant and am likely to get bored. But I didn’t get bored and even understood the points.

[@fred_derf]

Titus Kennedy works for Biola University, from their statement of faith we find the following: _"The Bible, consisting of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, is the Word of God, a supernaturally given revelation from God Himself, concerning Himself, His being, nature, character, will and purposes; and concerning man, his nature, need and duty and destiny. _*_The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are without error or misstatement_*_ in their moral and spiritual teaching _*_and record of historical facts._*_ They are without error or defect of any kind."_ Given that, I don't think you can take anything he says seriously.

[@stevewebber707]

Can we take it seriously biased? Funny thing I noticed in that statement of faith. "...They are without error or defect of any kind." He made a special point of disputing the accuracy of the numbers of the exodus. I mean technically he was trying to support an alternative translation, but if it's unclear how to translate something accurately, I would not describe that as without defect. So not only is he not doing serious scholarship, he's arguably running against that statement of faith as well.

[@michaelsbeverly]

@@stevewebber707 No, when Christians say, "The Bible is without error," they always mean the "real" Bible, you know, how it was originally written....so, yeah, the can never be wrong. If you find an error, well, sure, that was a human mistake, added later, don't cha know?

[@stevewebber707]

@@michaelsbeverly Yeah I've heard that approach. And a bible we don't have, and presumably could never have, is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure a lot of them don't claim that though. Come to think of it, that mythological book bears a lot of commonalities with their God. It can't be shown, or falsified for starters. Which means people can make up anything they want, without contradicting anything.

[@davidcrowley1951]

So please show some definite proof of an error in the Bible. Just one.

[@fred_derf]

​@@davidcrowley1951, writes _"So please show some definite proof of an error in the Bible. Just one."_ The Universe wasn't "created" in six days. The Eartha and plants weren't "created" before stars. Birds weren't "created" before land animals. No one can live for three days inside a fish. Staves can't become snakes. Donkeys can't talk. The world was not flooded. Moses wasn't a real person. There was no "exodus"... Oh, you said just one thing. Sorry.

[@ChryosSkathe]

Moooootivated reasoning. "Let's look for the best period the Exodus might have happened and then look for evidence, instead of just looking at the evidence."

[@fordprefect5304]

Except we have evidence. The evidence proves the Hebrews were just another Canaanite tribe living in the hills of Canaan. But you don't want to look there do you?

[@robsaxepga]

Purchased. Love Bart!

[@Paulogia]

awesome! see you there

[@j.obrien4990]

20:20 "the fif.... the 10 commandments" one my favorite movie lines.

[@alanclark639]

Yeh, and don't forget - those 10 biggies came with a stack of T's & C's if you wanna be Kosher - more like 408 - 460 depending on your translator. Personally, if this God guy can create the Universe that stretches 46.5 billion light-years anywhere you care to look and has more stars than grains of sand in a very sandy desert - yet he wants me to erect altars and worship him - I have two words for him - one beginning with F and the other O.

[@mattfischer1079]

It's hard to "date" the Exodus.....because it's always walking away. 😮‍💨😮‍💨😮‍💨

[@utubepunk]

*On this episode of Battle of the Bookshelves...*

[@terryhunt2659]

I haven't read through 1,300+ comments, but of those I have, everyone seems to be missing a major point. Exodus and Numbers were written in the 5th century BCE, about the origins of Israel some 700+ years earlier. The writers knew that the proto-Israelites had been Egyptian slaves, knew they later lived in Caanan, and had to come up with an explanation, which a (fictional) Exodus and Conquest does. What they _didn't_ know in the 6th century BCE was that prior to the Bronze Age Collapse in the 13th Century BCE, Egypt's territory stretched all the way up the Levant to the borders of the Anatolian Hittites (with Ugarit sandwiched in between). Caanan then was effectively _in_ Egypt and its inhabitants effectively slaves of the Pharoah, because Kings in that era regarded all their subjects as slaves, and referred to them as such in correspondence with each other and with subordinate administrators. Due to the Bronze Age Collapse, Egypt could no longer control the Levant and contracted back to the Nile Delta and Valley, so the former Caananite/Israelite 'slaves' in Caanan were no longer slaves and no longer in Egypt, despite not having moved at all. Doubtless some Israelites had been sent to Egypt now and then when a Pharoah had needed a workforce for a mining or other project, and after the collapse a few of them, or their descendents, likely returned to Caanan/Israel. It's interesting that of the 'Tribes of Israel' (more than 12 are known), only the Levites tended to have Egyptian-style names - perhaps they were the ones who returned from Egypt 'proper' with the idea of monotheism, leading to them gaining their monopoly on priesthood while lacking their own territory.

[@ThomasGilmore-fi6gb]

There is no evidence of the Hebrews having been enslaved in Egypt and no archeological evidence of any large population living in Sinai...ever. Isn't that born out by the fact that during hundreds of years of made up stories about Egypt the pyramids are never mentioned once.

[@bobbydobalina]

So Sean is open to possible mistranslations in Exodus; tens of thousands as opposed to hundreds of thousands…how does he feel about Isiah 7:14 and the word “virgin” argued as a mistranslation?

[@Kzam19-ux8wg]

The Quran says only a small band of israelites participated in exodus: 26: 52-56

[@mattschm5486]

Love the mel brooks take of moses presenting the 15…..aehm 10 commandments 😂

[@Paulogia]

glad someone caught that

[@WalterRMattfeld]

(09 December 2023) My understanding on the date for the Exodus? IT IS A CONFLATION OF EVENTS SPANNING A PERIOD OF TIME FROM CIRCA 5000 BC (Neolithic Times) to Late Iron Age II Times, circa the 6th century BC. (1) The Neolithic settlement (5000 BC) on the plain Er-Raha, in the shadow of Ras Safsafeh (discovered in the late 1980s), miss-dated 1446 BC by the Iron Age II Israelites and it was miss-identified as being Moses' settlement. Ras Safsafeh being Mount Sinai/Horeb (2) Early Bronze Age II settlements, ca. 2300 BC like Ai (Et_Tell, and Arad). miss-dated 1446 BC by the Iron Age II Israelites. (2) A recasting of the Hyksos Expulsion of circa 1530 BC, as noted by Professor Donald Bruce Redford (an Egyptologist). (3) The sudden appearance of Iron Age I settlements on both sides of the Jordan River (circa 1200-1100 BC), miss-dated 1446 BC by the Iron Age II Israelites (cf. 1 Kings 6:1). (4) Late Iron Age II Settlements (ca. the 7th/6th centuries BC) in Edom, Moab, and Ammon, as noted by Dr. Burton MacDonald. **THE ELUSIVE KEY* I STUMBLED UPON, TO *UNSCRAMBLE* THE EXODUS DATE? My "Ah-ha moment" came when I read the diary of a Christian Pilgrimess called Egeria (4th century AD). Her Christian guides, pointed out to her stone circles in the valley approach to Mount Sinai (today's Gebel Musa for some). Her guides said the large stone circles were the remains of hut foundations built by Moses' Israelites over the year spent at Mt. Sinai. Archaeologists have excavated some of these stone circles and determined Egeria's Christian Guides were WRONG, the pottery debris associated with the stone circles was that of Early Bronze Age II Times, ca. 2300 BC, not 1446 BC, not 1260 BC. I came to realize that IF EGERIA"S GUIDES HAD MISDATED THESE STONE CIRCLES WHY NOT THE IRON AGE II ISRAELITES? No one knew the age of any ancient site or artifact until Sir Flinders Petrie of England developed by 1890 AD Pottery Typologies to date sites and artifacts by! An ancient Iron Age Israelite would not be able to tell the difference between a Neolithic sherd and a Late Bronze Age Sherd, as to when it had been made! ***It is my assumption that the Iron Age Israelites who composed the Exodus account MISS-DATED EVERY ARTIFACT AND SITE IN THE SINAI AND NEGEV, AS CIRCA 1446-1406 BC, the World of Moses, according to 1 Kings 6:1.*** Ask any Iron Age Israelite (1200-562 BC) to show you the "physical proof" of Israel's presence in the Sinai and Negeb and he probably would have shown you the hundreds of stone circle nomadic goat-herder camps (camps from Neolithic to Iron Age Times). WHY did the archaeologists FAIL to find Mount Sinai? They were looking in the WRONG ERA! Either 1446-1406 BC (based on 1 Kings 6:1) or 1260 BC and the world of Ramesses II, ca. 1260 BC, neither of which, could be found! The archaeologists reported back that there was no archaeological evidence of Moses and Israel for those two dates. ***These archaeologists had failed to realize the Iron Age Israelites had no way to properly date any site or any artifact.*** Accordingly, my research has identified Mt. Sinai, and the remains of the Ten Commandments, and the Golden Calf, but not by searching for artifacts of either 1446-1406 BC or 1260 BC! If interested in my findings, google my papers posted at "Academia Profile, Walter R. Mattfeld." For me, the archaeologists FOUND MOSES' SHATTERED TEN COMMANDMENTS, BUT WERE UNAWARE THEY HAD DONE SO! TODAY THE TEN COMMADMENTS REST IN A EGYPTIAN MUSEUM, THE CURATORS UNAWARE OF WHAT THEY HAVE! MOSES' NAME ALSO HAS BEEN FOUND IN THE SOUTHERN SINAI, IN THE AREA OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS AND GOLDEN CALF!

[@timothymulholland7905]

Biola U profs do not dare contradict the literalist narrative. Thus they sweat and strain to find or invent “evidence” for it. It is pitiful.

[@theosib]

It seems more likely that something else happened. It could be entirely fictional, but there are too many egyptian words in Exodus for that to be the easiest solution. Another option is that some small group of people left Egypt at some point we can't pin down, they carried their stories with them orally, and through some game of telephone, their story was ultimately imported into the Hebrew canon. Something similar happened with the Noachian flood, where stories like Atra-Hasis were passed down, evolved through oral tradition, and then much later got fixed into Hebrew canon. In either case, there's some historical event that occurred, but the Biblical version only superficially resembles it.

[@Erimgard13]

Egypt controlled Canaan for 400 years. It's not terribly surprising that there are Egyptian words in the Hebrew language. What's a bit more surprising is so many Hebrew priests having Egyptian names in these stories

[@teleriferchnyfain]

Ah!!!! Someone who understands how folklore actually works!!!!

[@justinb864]

Nearly every civilization has a creation myth that probably didn’t happen the way it was told. The Israelites are no exception to that.

[@teleriferchnyfain]

@@justinb864 Whoever said they were an exception? You still laboring under the notion that I’m a Christian apologist? I’m a Pagan lol

[@justinb864]

@@teleriferchnyfain I wasn’t even replying to you. I was adding to the point, not arguing with anyone.

[@avi8r66]

Titus Kennedy, "a research fellow at Discovery Institute".. that alone means he isn't honest. They don't hire honest people. The Moses / Exodus story is a favorite of mine to use to show just how bad the fiction was written back then. To begin with, if God had wanted to free the hebrew slaves then he would not have waited 80 years for Moses to grow up. Moses brought nothing to the party, any idiot would have sufficed. Also, it followed the typical course of showing strength through brutality. In the story he forced Pharaoh to reject the freedom request. Not only does this mean Pharaoh might have approved such a request, it shows that God controlled the whole story. If he can harden the heart he can also soften it, and that would have been a much more amazing demonstration of power. Imagine if God had caused pharaoh to agree, and not only agree, dispatch his army to safeguard the freed slaves to their new promised land. Their former masters, their enemy, completely changing their stance and protecting them on their trip to freedom. That would have been an amazing show of power. But that form of power did not exist in those days, power to those writers was only shown through brutality. So instead they wrote the story to show just how brutal god could be. Another aspect that makes 0 sense is the whole 'pharaoh killed the male children' to 'control the population'. They knew how breeding worked. Removing the young sperm donors would not slow the population growth at all. If you want to do that you have to remove the females from the herd. So again, nonsense. It's a dumb story, end to end.

[@markbriten6999]

I've always thought that I pharaoh had been that hard hearted, and his eldest son had been killed, how many Israelites would have lived to see the next day. Remember he had an army they didn't.mreminds me of Samson and his asses jaw bone. Total bollocks . Ok a few go in get killed the rest of you stand a bit off and all throw spears at him. How long is he going to last

[@artemisia4718]

That's just your opinion. I for one think it is a brilliant literary creation on par with the origin myths of the other ancient south Asian civilizations. The characters are relatable to this day. The struggles for freedom and self-identity are still part of the human experience. And the poetry is amazing. The sound and the cadence of the Song of the Sea is just breathtaking in the original Hebrew.

[@MrMild-sv7is]

The interesting thing with the Merneptah stele is that the hieroglyph for “people” is used when it mentions Israel instead of the hieroglyph that’s usually used when referring to land/territory.

[@bulwinkle]

So their argument is that their inerrant book of fable has its numbers wrong? So inerrant and wrong? And we're supposed to believe them?

[@jenna2431]

When I read this story as a Christian, my question was always "Why were they hungry? Why did they only have manna that had to be supplied to them? They had their livestock with them."

[@breakaleg10]

Like so many other myths and legends this is the result of smaller incidents and events, most likely not even related to each other, that has been passed down through generations and much later being written down as if they go together and when they wrote this became a series of happenings that happened together.

[@breakaleg10]

@S Gloval This is speculation on my part. Feel free to either dismiss it or expand on it

[@paulcooper1223]

@S Gloval How do you know it actually happened?

[@InigoMontoya-]

@@paulcooper1223 Da book told him.

[@paulcooper1223]

@@InigoMontoya- *Plays jingle*

[@NYCFenrir]

@S Gloval Myth: a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

[@bodricpriest8816]

What we're seeing here, in Paulogia amongst others online, is a democratization of access to facts and arguments, stripped of all the difficulty that previous generations, both social and technological, in getting access. It's really wild that we're seeing the secularization of so much of those in adolescence and young adulthood as a result, a real paradigm shift in human history just from access to internet argument.

[@BabbleCacophony]

Bart saying bye at the end, cracked me up.

[@billfaint6736]

Given that, at the supposed time of the exodus, Sinai and Canaan were at least under Egyptian influence, what did they escape?

[@MrApolkov]

Have you read a high school or university newspaper with overblown headlines like OUR SCHOOL FOOTBALL TEAM WIPED THE FIELD WITH ANOTHER SCHOOL'S TEAM! Then the realization dawns on you that the opposing team players are still alive and well? Their school still stands, too? Bummer.

[@stephenolan5539]

School papers claim to be divinely inspired? I didn't know that. Otherwise no comparison.

[@Yourghostuncle]

There were Gnomes in my basement last week, now they are extremely neat so they don't leave anything behind, so if my basement is empty, thats exactly what you would expect.

[@broski365]

How did the Hebrews smelt a golden calf in the middle of a desert? Was one blacksmith blacksmith like "I'm keeping my anvil and my furnace and I'm taking it with me"

[@druidriley3163]

If the story is even true, which I don't believe, the statue probably wasn't solid and just hammered gold plate over a wooden statue.

[@vjara94]

The historical Socio-cultural context is so much richer, exiting and fascinating than misrepresenting evidence and making up conclusion to fit a preconceived believe.

[@Lightman0359]

My favorite take on the whole Moses/Exodus thing is the one that says the Story of Moses is a telephone game version of AmenhotepIV/Akhenaten. This Pharaoh did move across the Nile from the Capital to establish a city in the middle of nowhere where only 1 god [the Aten, or disk of the sun] would be worshipped, with him as high priest. Amarna/Akhetateten only lasted a little over a decade, not 40 years, but things get exaggerated. I'm not saying this IS the case, but it is a story that rhymes and happens between the "new chronology" of 1500s BCE and traditional chronology of 1200s BCE, happening roughly a century before Rameses II

[@AbandonedVoid]

Akhenaten actually was in contact with Canaanites, even negatively impacting them and sending troops there, so he might have influenced some of the myths, but we really don't know for sure.

[@stephenolan5539]

@@AbandonedVoid Canaan was part of Egypt at that time.

[@MrMild-sv7is]

There’s also the problem of the fact that Canaan was a vassal state of Egypt at the time Exodus was supposed to have taken place. During the Armarna period, we have correspondence letters between the pharaoh and the Moabite king of Uru-Salem (Jerusalem) regarding the encroaching Hyksos.

[@fordprefect5304]

encroaching Habiru

[@MrMild-sv7is]

@@fordprefect5304 thanks for the correction

[@qcsorter4626]

Wow! So Amenhotep ll was .."extremely arrogant and stubborn . . . wrote that he was the greatest king ever . . . . talked about doing crazy deeds . . . . seemed to be compensating for something . . ." I'm trying to think of somebody modern who sounds like that . . . .

[@Rurike]

Never a sign of confidence when your opening argument for evidence of your claim is going into detail of why you dont expect to find evidence

[@kevincrady2831]

The ancient Egyptians believed in magic. They built temples with spells carved into the walls to ward off hostile magic from rival nations, Kush (Ethiopia) and Libya in particular. And yet, there is not a single record of--much less any response to--their entire country getting wrecked by a Hebrew wizard. No mass graves, no piles of bones from dead livestock, nothing. Not even any disruption of their rule over Canaan during the time when the Exodus and the supposed conquest of Canaan under Joshua took place.

[@petergaskin1811]

First question: when was Exodus written and incorporated into the Tanahk? Second question: who wrote the book of Exodus? Third question: what canonical status is normally given to the book of Exodus?

[@onlyme972]

Great civilisations all around but none noticed exodus

[@noname-by3qz]

Check out THE INVENTION OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE by Sholmo Sand, who was a Jewish history professor at Tel Aviv University.

[@davidpayne8413]

A Large number of people wandering in the desert for 40 years left no trace what so ever, come on it didn't happen.

[@InigoMontoya-]

One of the ways they hid their tracks was to not name their horses.

[@InigoMontoya-]

@Brandon Letzco men just won’t stop and ask for directions.

[@allangibson8494]

The Persians lost an entire army in the Egyptian desert…

[@ArthriticThumb]

This is ridiculous, have you ever heard of a leader saying they are smarter than their generals, how they are the chosen one, or brag about how good they are at golf, I mean a sport. 🙄

[@mjeh1]

I'd love to know what religious people think happened to all the people that lived before their cult of choice came into existence. There were people around long before any of the major religions came into being.

[@Azrael__]

Quite the presentation, but have you considered Letma?

[@DeludedOne]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Also our God is the only God that exists, the rest are fake." "There is evidence that Semites immigrated to Egypt at times of famine and that there is evidence of some Semites who also left or fled Egypt, therefore the story of Moses is a true story." There's not even any consideration that the Exodus was a story that described stuff that actually happened but it was itself an exaggerated fictional stories and not an actual historical record.

[@DeludedOne]

@Brandon Letzco Yeah but they cheerfully claim that they and all other Gods are fake simply because their religion is....true (so they think)? But they don't have actual evidence that those Gods are fake, mere absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence after all.

[@jerrypendergrass]

Note around 15th century BC Thera (Santorini) volcanic explosion, wiped out the minocians and likely had effect in egypt. This could explain the plagues.

[@ackbooh9032]

Hearing Evangelicals claim bias is rich.

[@akmi1931]

The story of the Exodus makes more sense if you remove the supernatural elements. And realize that the story it an exaggeration of possibility multiple separate events.

[@garrybooker]

I love Dr. Ehrman’s laugh about the Passover theory. 😂

[@anjaknatz7157]

If I need evidence for what I believe in, I need some evidence to get rid of my fear, that I could have got it all wrong and what I believe in is only a story I tell myself to feel save.