History-Makers: Quintus of Smyrna and the Fall of Troy

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Why is it that the Iliad and the Odyssey don't actually cover the Fall of Troy? Seems relevant to the narrative, no? Well as it happens that story was recounted in a series of smaller epic poems, but they were lost to time at the end of the Classical Period. Thankfully, one storyteller who actually gave a crap was able to preserve the story of Troy's final fall, so let's investigate the PostHomerica of Quintus Smyrnaeus.
SOURCES & Further Reading: Loeb Classical Library "PostHomerica" and supplemental notes as edited by Jeffrey Henderson, "Heroes and heroism in Quintus of Smyrna’s Posthomerica" by Tine Scheijnen, "Stuck in the Middle with You: Quintus of Smyrna’s Reception of Homer", Quote from page 731 of Easterling, Pat and Bernard Knox edd. 1985. "The Cambridge History of Classical Literature". Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
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[@OverlySarcasticProductions]

✨NEW PINS✨ - the FINAL gods in the Olympian pantheon! Round out the collection HERE: crowdmade.com/collections/overlysarcasticproductions/products/overly-sarcastic-productions-aphrodite-and-hephaestus-pin-pack

[@Fantasygod930]

Yay finally all the Olympians are pins now you have to do it to the Norse because Loki is lonely without Thor and Odin there and maybe his children

[@thehellenicneopagan]

Haven't covered full videos on all the Olympians yet though... 💁🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

[@foulplayer7812]

Hey Blue. Great video. I think you should do a video about Armenia. The country has a very extensive multicultural history dating all the way back to the Bronze Age, Persia, and Rome and is one of the oldest countries in the world. Armenia was also the first country in the world to adopt Christianity as a state religion in 301 A.D. There is so much you could discuss in a future video.

[@PheOfTheFae]

Now that you've done the Olympians, can we get some Tuatha De Dannans? :D

[@finnmurphyfilms]

NOOOOOOO I only discovered this channel a few weeks ago, I never got to get any :((

[@billywarren007]

Troy Story, giving us great lines like “There’s an arrow in my heel” and “YOU ARE A TROJAN!!!!”

[@h0m3st4r]

Don't forget "To Olympus and beyond!"

[@billywarren007]

@@h0m3st4r and of course “oh no no no… ACHILLES LOOK! A TROJAN!”

[@Thatoneguyinurwalls]

My favorite line in the Illiad is when Hector looks at the audience and says "Its Troyin' time"

[@pridelander06]

Patroclus: "Look! I'm Achilles! Stabby, stabby stabby!" Hector: "Ah ha, ah haaa..." *Kills*

[@altejoh]

"You are a sad, strange little Greek."

[@CS-dc3iq]

Yknow, writing a pagan book on basically the eve of christianisation has to be the most unlucky thing ive ever seen. No wonder it took 1600-ish years for it to resurface

[@DoveJS]

But that means it's also insanely lucky his book was still around in enough fashion to resurface at all! It's a little bit of both. XD

[@brya9681]

you should read the darkening age: the Christian destruction of the classical world. damn good book but very depressing

[@CS-dc3iq]

@@brya9681 that sounds amazing, i will definetly try to get my hands on it

[@jenstastic48]

One of the saddest things about the Christianisation of Europe is that many texts/stories were erased never to resurface again just because they were pagan or critical of Christianity. Also, The Darkening Age by Catherine Nixey is indeed a great and provocative book to read. It really gives a perspective of how pagans saw and experienced the decline of their religion and how the ''Triumph of Christianity'' played part in the destruction of the ancient world and how it practically started the dark ages.

[@aspetty]

Less do than you'd realize. Step forward another fine hundred years of yes you'd be right however at that point pagans and Christians often interacted and good would share works. It would unfortunately go down hill very quickly but when he was working on it it would just be seen as standard academics for the time

[@BlakeTheDrake]

Ah yes, Quintus of Smyrna... the Patron Saint of Fanfic-Writers. Like, the GOOD ones. The self-insert wish-fulfillment crew have to make do with Dante.

[@Amanda-C.]

Who gets Chretien de Troyes, originator of Lancelot du Lac? Not quite the aggressive shippers, because it's not like his OTP came from his predecessors' cast of characters; no, Lancey was an OC all the way. Shippers are sadly underrepresented in surviving fanfic from before the modern era.

[@danielstride198]

Surely Virgil is the Patron-Saint of Fanfiction?

[@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim]

@@danielstride198 They specified _good_ Fanfiction.

[@Amanda-C.]

@@danielstride198 His was government-mandated, though. So, not fanfiction, but tie-ins, reboots, and unplanned continuations.

[@glasscardproductions4736]

@@Amanda-C. Chrétien de Troyes = OC × Canon fic writers.

[@barleysixseventwo6665]

The very first recorded instance of everyone slagging some perfectly valid fan fiction

[@jelliefishr2336]

every master (My Immortal) has their teacher (The Posthomerica)

[@incognitoman3656]

If we ever invent time travel, Ima need a copy o’ that

[@loadeddice4696]

@@incognitoman3656 If I get a time machine my priorities are: Preserve the Epic of Gilgamesh, preserve Sappho's poetry and then push Hitler down the stairs.

[@incognitoman3656]

@@loadeddice4696 and then close that one beach and that one zoo down

[@griffenspellblade3563]

You mean everyone slagging a twist on someone else's fan fiction. The entire Trojan War cycle is a giant community driven work of collective art.

[@mutantmaster1]

'Aristotle's gang of nerds' sounds like a DnD group name made entirely of Wizards

[@alicerivierre]

I'm a history nerd myself! ♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️

[@incognitoman3656]

Oh, god, when my friends discovered Warlock….

[@merrittanimation7721]

"The minotaur faces you. What do you do?" "Explain to him the metaphysical nature of reality" "The minotaur eats you"

[@zachelkins1229]

@@merrittanimation7721 Just a fancy way of saying "I cast Maze" and "did you forget minotaurs are immune to Maze." I very much approve as both a student of philosophy and 3.5 DM.

[@DoveJS]

@@zachelkins1229 *slow claps* Excellent! 😂

[@arcticdino1650]

I love the "Equestrian War Crime" joke, OSP's jokes in general are great

[@minasthirith6314]

Imagine Princess Celestia banning Trotjan horses.

[@merrittanimation7721]

@@minasthirith6314 In this exciting episode of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, Princess Celestia attempts to warn her Trojan allies of the false horse. Unfortunately, she was eaten by serpents sent by Poseidon before she could warn them (alternate joke, she was cursed by Apollo so they wouldn't believe her)

[@magmasajerk]

There's a Hearts of Iron mod like that.

[@larquefausse3623]

@@minasthirith6314 I don't get it.

[@larquefausse3623]

It's only a war crime if the survivors could do anything about it.

[@TomLuTon]

So in other words, imagine in a thousand years after at least one apocalypse, trying to put together the story of Batman with only a handful of comics and prose stories and a few animated and live action DVDs

[@petertrudelljr]

You would at least know how his parents died, since EVERY telling has to include an origin story...

[@SerialElfYT]

@@petertrudelljr Only if that bit didn't somehow wind up damaged in every surviving copy...

[@VictoriaStarratt]

I remember that in “Broken Throne” By Victoria Aveyard, a companion book to the Red Queen series, the Scholarly mentor type Julian, is going through artifacts from the old world (which is our world, Red Queen is a post rebuild post Nuclear Apocalypse) and finds some Batman comics, and likes them, I just find that funny.

[@TheMosv]

I love the idea of going to IKEA and picking up a flat-pack Trojan Horse

[@OverlySarcasticProductions]

the Dödshäst was a best-seller in 1225 BC -B

[@aceazzameen9389]

This is the second fantastic flat-pack IKEA joke from a youtube channel in as many weeks. The first was Perun's commentary on Sweden's flirtation with a nuclear missile program during the cold war.

[@petertrudelljr]

@@aceazzameen9389 Yeah, that was pretty funny.

[@helenanilsson5666]

@@OverlySarcasticProductions Oh, well done picking up the naming convention! A lot of English speakers just write gibberish instead of translating an actual word.

[@Elenrai]

@@OverlySarcasticProductions Aaay! Respect for bein so accurate!

[@margaretwalters6757]

We did almost lose Shakespeare's works! From just after his death until the restoration of the monarchy, Shakespeare faded into history. It was only after the restoration that his works started to get read and produced again. This was a deliberate promotion of a monarch-funded/patronized playwrite to build patriotism and promote pro-monarch ideas. It wasn't so long of a gap that most of his plays couldn't be recovered, but if it had lasted a little while longer we probably would not have so many.

[@danielstride198]

What saved Shakespeare was the First Folio (1623). There was an organised compendium of his plays all ready to go.

[@rickpgriffin]

@@danielstride198 Honestly yes; there were some other publications that were... not quite so accurate, likely put out by some actors trying to recall the play by memory and looking to make a quick penny. For most playwrights of the day, these kinds of reproductions ARE all that we have left. The Folio was absurdly comprehensive for its time, and if all extant copies of it were lost then yeah

[@Sojoboscribe]

And we STILL may be missing at least one or two; "Love's Labors Won" (depending on whether it is or is not the same as one of the other plays) and Cardinio (if it could be proven that Shakespeare was involved with it).

[@Nostripe361]

@@Sojoboscribe Media is incredibly volatile. If no one even cares it will be gone. Just look at all the old media we have lost in the last century alone. I think the vast majority of Hollywood movies have been lost those who could hold on to them just letting them fall apart or be intentionally destroyed

[@griffenspellblade3563]

@@Nostripe361 To preserve means to keep copying them forward. We lose at least 50% of our popular media in under 40 years becasue why would anyone consume them? To preserve everything is unfeasible. Not even the Library of Congress preserves all the fiction that the US has produced.

[@SivakAurak]

Quintus managed to stitch together an old epic cycle and throw it far into the future right before the window closed on it forever. Absolutely insane clutch move.

[@gaelstrarai]

Agreed!

[@merrittanimation7721]

Adding onto why certain pieces of Greek literature survived, here's the answer for Greek tragedies. In the Hellenistic period certain plays for each of the major Attic tragedians were codified for the purposes of teaching rhetoric and such to students. Of these seven were selected for Aeschylus and Sophocles, and ten for Euripedes because I guess the Alexandrian scholars of the period liked him more. So these are the plays we have the most copies of because even when actually staging most of* these plays fell out of fashion there were still students using them into the Medieval period. Euripides also got an extra nine surviving plays because a volume of his collected works got copied in the Byzantine period. So that's basically why we only have tragedies for about three people from that period (depending on which ones may be falsely attributed at least) *three plays by Euripides; Orestes, the Phoenician Women, and Hecuba; were regularly staged during Byzantine times. This did not really affect how many plays we have because they were already with his codified works. I guess they weren't Sophocles fans

[@TheNaturalnuke]

So even back then the books teachers were using were around longer than the school they were being used in?

[@merrittanimation7721]

@@TheNaturalnuke I don't know the specific examples we have but I wouldn't doubt it.

[@pyrosolboy]

I know it's not what you meant, but reading that third sentence I can't help but hear Galadriel's opening. "It began with the forging of the Greek Tragedies. Seven were given to Aeschylus, Father to all Tragedies and Conflict. Seven were given to Sophocles, Master of of the stage, celebrated throughout the land. And ten. Ten plays were given to Euripedes, who above all else, desired Drama..."

[@lolitbird7522]

@@pyrosolboy yes yes yes!! This! This is beautiful and I love it!!

[@merrittanimation7721]

@@pyrosolboy "Within in them was the skill to define western theatre for millennia. But they were all of them, deceived. For another volume was made... In the lands of Eastern Rome, in the halls of Constantinople, a Byzantine scribe copied another volume. In it he included Euripide's meter, his rhetoric, and his desire to define drama. Nine plays to rule them all."

[@danilooliveira6580]

this episode feels like a very strange overlap between red's and blue's work, I could imagine both of them talking about this

[@NotesFromTheVoid]

Plot twist: red's next myths video is a summary of the posthomerica

[@loug1016]

Loki approves

[@Valery0p5]

@@NotesFromTheVoid 🤔

[@reyonXIII]

I mean, i don't find it a coincidence that Red remakes her old Illiad video into a full on Trojan War video a week or two after Blue's Mycenean Greece and Bronze Age Collapse vid in the same month.

[@jinxcat90]

Homeric scholars are harsh to Quintus of Smyrna. "He was just a lousy aspiring wannabe." Me: "He tried! What do you think most writers start out as?" Now off to hunt this down to read

[@andrewtripp6837]

Honestly I was half hoping for Blue to make a Quintus Smirnoff joke.

[@HerculesMays]

Definitely worth a read! Sure he's not Homer, but he still weaves a gripping and really fun story. And if you've read the Iliad, you'll enjoy seeing the familiar characters return

[@Vespuchian]

I love the preamble about how the greatest threat to literary preservation is apathy, turning the phrase “who reads Sappho?” into “who _can_ read Sappho?” [edit] of course, it doesn’t help if you’re relying on Romans to preserve anything they don’t like or care about.

[@larquefausse3623]

You read like a salty Carthaginian, but we both know they don't exist.

[@EuelBall]

Agreed... Romans, great engineers, great military, not so good in originality, lousy preservationists.

[@Vespuchian]

@@EuelBall I've read enough about Rome to start wondering why we keep thinking of them as a 'great' civilization: Roman history is replete with the _status quo_ being enforced by genocide of non-citizens and repression of actual citizens (most people don't know it was flat-out illegal to get another job), all because the Roman economy was _COMPLETELY_ unsustainable without influxes of gold and slaves taken from the empire's neighbours. Utterly dominating Europe in order to fund a forever war against Persia isn't hard when you've murdered everyone who had more than three coins to rub together and enslaved their families. Sorry, this got ranty but man do I hate Rome. Ruined multiple religions while they were at it by putting Romans in charge... [angry huff noises]

[@patrickbohn5235]

@@Vespuchian To claim Rome wasnt a great civilization is just silly. When you have countries claiming to be a descendent state a full millenia and a half after you collapsed, your greatness is pretty much a given. Thats not saying they were a good nation or a benevolent hegemon, they objectively werent, but they absolutely were great. Something to also keep in mind is, you discount their conquests but they were far from easy. If you havent watched Blues coverage of the Roman Republic I strongly recommend it. At some point Rome did snowball a bit and get big enough that they could claim the mediterranean but that wasnt a quick or easy process.

[@DrakeCaliburn]

Maybe it was for the best. Do you know how strong we lesbians would be if we had Sappho's complete work? We would be unstoppable

[@otakuemi4676]

"Describing his work as an episodic retread of a better poet's work" So kinda like that thing Disney did with every fairy tale story they got their hands on?

[@carlosroo5460]

OOOOOOOOOH~~!!!

[@iwannareadforever8185]

Shots have been fired!!

[@errorcrj110]

Much the same, no matter how much we may spite them for it, they helped to revive and preserve the memories of these great tales, even if only by inspiring others to retell them.

[@utubrGaming]

Well, since the WDW always seems to both have critical and financial acclaim when they pull it off, something must be working.

[@PakBallandSami]

Quintus intends to close the chronological gap between the events that had been recounted in the Iliad and those described in the Odyssey. He therefore mimics Homer in terms of vocabulary, language, syntax, meter and rhythm, parables, narrative style and construction. Like Homer, Quintus also focuses on the people, their dialogues and actions. Evidence that would allow conclusions to be drawn about the topography of the city

[@PakBallandSami]

"Poseidon himself tore open The bowels of the earth and caused a great upward gush of water Together with slime and sand. With all his might he shook Sigeion, making the beaches rumble, and Dardania From its foundation. So that enormous fortress vanished Under the sea and sank down into the ground When it yawned asunder. Only sand could still be seen, When the sea had retreated" --Quintus,

[@PakBallandSami]

@The Philosoraptor true true

[@carlosroo5460]

I like it. Put it on a T-Shirt and give me a %50 discount.

[@grungeguy97]

"Long term preservation of knowledge is a function of our archiving standards and how much we care." As an archivist, so much YES to this comment! The historical record seems to exude a kind of authoritative mystique at times, but it's also incredibly partial and biased simply due to the fact that people need to appraise what is worthy of documenting and preserving in the first place. It is an enormous privilege to 1) have the capability to create a record, 2) have it recognized as something valuable by others, and 3) be identified as possessing enduring value and preserved accordingly. Resources that don't meet these standards consistently usually end up as archival "silences" that only resurface as a result of means like cross-references, inferences, pure coincidence, or deliberately reparative work.

[@pathfindersavant3988]

Everyone always talks about "oh no Alexandria burning down was so terrible!" Yet no one ever mentions the sacking and destruction of other major repositories of knowledge, such as the annihilation of the archives at Ctesiphon during the fall of the Sasanid Empire. I mean, the Sasanids used to have Air Conditioning and central heating, then almost over night nearly all that knowledge was lost!

[@Passions5555]

I am intrigued. Who were they?

[@pathfindersavant3988]

@@Passions5555 The Sassanid Empire, also known as the Neo-Persian Empire, was the last of the great Iranian Empires to exist before they were destroyed by the invasion and conquest of the region by the Arabs of the Rashidun Caliphate in the late 7th century. Essentially they were the last form of the Persian Empire to exist, and were even able to regain much of the territroy and influence that had been lost by the previous Parthian Empire, and at its peak stretched from Western Anatolia into the Levant and even as far as modern day Pakistan. Further, despite being a predominately Zoroastrian nation, they allowed and tolerated the practice of Christians (especially Nestorians, who were persecuted and viewed as heretical in the newly Christianized Rome but were welcomed into the Sassanid Empire), Jews (who were even given their own semi-autonomous state in Mesopotamia), Bhuddists, and Hindus in their empire.

[@lightsabermadeofbees4924]

@@Passions5555 Persian Empire 2: Hormozdgan Boogaloo. They were the group that ate up the Parthians and basically re-established the Persian Empire for several centuries. (The Empire they were re-establishing being the Achaemenid Persian Empire)

[@pathfindersavant3988]

@@Passions5555 If you'd like to know a little more, the youtuber Epimetheus has a good video on them. Epimetheus is also a really good channel for ancient history overall, Highly recommend subscribing to them

[@CollinMcLean]

@@lightsabermadeofbees4924 Blue actually talks about the Sassanids in his video on the Persians.

[@scripsiabiete]

Everytime I see something about Troy, I keep thinking about my brother (who's name is Troy). "The ancient texts of Troy" sounds so funny when you can imagine it as some sort of grease-stained fan fiction/homework.

[@CaraiseLink]

Moral of the story: High-effort fan fiction is criminally underrated.

[@michaelscott6022]

So ya boi Quintus was basically playing Pokemon Marble, collecting all the Trojan War accounts in the Mediterranean region, under the guidance of Professor Homer.

[@Codebreakerblue]

Pokemon Greece/Pokemon Rome

[@incognitoman3656]

@@Codebreakerblue most Pokémon games were named after a precious stone, but I love the fact that this title would entail you picking up either a Roman or Grecian god Pokémon

[@shinsenshogun900]

@@Codebreakerblue This has been the worst bard hunting journey ever trekked - Quintus to his companions on their way to a musical hermit's hut / ol' abandoned ransacked Roman city sacked by barbarians, pretender rebels, or rival empires / proselytized philosophical lyceums or Christian churches refurnished out of now cleansed and partially smoldered academic libraries... (around the 3rd-5th centuries AD)

[@blackwingedheaven]

As a librarian who wrote his Master's dissertation on the loss of the Library of Alexandria, I love everything about this video's treatment of the subject.

[@bmyers7078]

I had an uncle once claim the Vatican library was mostly closed due to the fact that people do not properly handle books that belong to other people.

[@11Survivor]

He has a point.

[@joshuahunt3032]

Probably the most sensible conspiracy theory about the Vatican Library I’ve ever heard lol

[@octapusxft]

Sadly physical books have that limitation. What they can do however is to scan/digitize all the books

[@georgethompson1460]

@@octapusxft Which they have begun to do, you wouldn't believe how many Necromantic Grimoires the church actually kept!

[@BJGvideos]

@@georgethompson1460 do you know where one might find their digitized books?

[@thejudgmentalcat]

"Not till you update your sprinklers" what a great....buuurn 🔥

[@utubrGaming]

Lost literature is one of the things that keeps me up at night. And I put book-burning on a circle of hell beneath traitors.

[@BJGvideos]

There is exactly one valid reason to burn books and that's if they're infected with dangerous mold.

[@scottnunnemaker5209]

The Trojan War was like the MCU… each side told grand stories about their super hero’s, some individual tales, others in team ups, and then the big groups fights. To me it represents a completely fictional tale that was set in a real world setting like Avengers. People know that these groups existed and fought. They know at one point the ancient Greeks sent many ships over to attack a foreign power. And they know the men were away for multiple decades. Everything else is probably fiction.

[@akl2k7]

Jason and the Argonauts was like another Avengers movie. A bunch of the classic heroes were in that one. Alas, they were all being led by an OC and his sexy witch girlfriend for some reason. The Iliad and Odyssey were basically Avengers: Infinity War and Endgame.

[@CLNCJD94]

I’m always pleasantly surprised whenever I hear Jocat’s SMITE in one of your videos. Your precise use of it is always hilarious and somehow brings me more into the video I don’t know why

[@PatrickCervantez]

I just heard about a thread in a Tumblr video about what it'd be like if literary authors rewrote other writers' stories the same way musicians make cover songs. Hearing about the _PostHomerica_ kinda sounds like an unlikely answer to that possibility. It also reminds of that James Bond novel _Devil May Care_ by Sebastian Faulks. He's credited _writing as Ian Fleming_ on the cover since it was released on what would've been Fleming's 100th birthday back in 2008. TL:DR copyright law is detrimental artistic endeavors and we need to fight stricter IP laws. Free the public domain.

[@ee822]

I would argue that Copyright itself is not a bad idea, as it is a necessary protection. While a lot of people focus on the modern abuse, if we had no copyright, then it would drastically hamper small timers because if something threatens to become a big deal, any corproation would be able to swoop in and steal it rather than being forced to license it. Hell, while Copyright issues can range in the millions range, Licensing is an industry in the tens of billions of dollars. And if you look at a graph of how humanity's technological progress is, we started taking off to the insane degree we have at the point that Copyright and Patent laws were put into place in the United States. This isn't to say that our current state is a bit fucked. A roughly ideal state would be about 30 years in my opinion, with licensing deals being much easier to undergo. 30 years because with a bit of room at the beginning for someone to find their feet, it roughly lands at retiring age for someone and thereby allows a person to build a career off their works without worrying about their livelihood.

[@PatrickCervantez]

@@ee822 I added the last part as sort of a joke. But considering how copyright law has been used to bully emerging artists over the last decade it wouldn't hurt to at least reexamine it.

[@petertrudelljr]

Another thing to blame Disney for (In addition to said rewriting of any fairy tale they get their hands on).

[@JenamDrag0n]

Ohhhhh, I have literally never heard of this guy before today, but I already love him because he had both the skill and passion to create a comprehensive midquel to a series he loved based on the already existing canon source material he had available to him.

[@Teackay]

Even before the Horse War Crime Athena had this nasty habit of impersonating people's loved ones to lead them to the slaughter.

[@CollinMcLean]

She also had a tendency to manipulate fights behind the scene (Like she did with Diomedes and Ares and later with Hector and Achilles) Tended to be indifferent to humans until it involved her directly (When the women of Troy prayed for their safety she ignored them but when Ajax the Lesser defaced one of her temples she had Zeus destroy the greek ships) And could also be incredibly unfair as far as goddesses go (Her competition with Arachne)

[@adlirez]

@@CollinMcLean I'll have to object on her competition with Arachne, you most likely read Ovid's version of that story, which is very explicitly "oh noooo the gods are such big manchilds who don't care about humans they're soooo unfaaaiiirrr even the most level-headed of the pantheon is a jerk even though it looks so OOC oh my gods look at Athena's injustice against a woman paying the price for her hubris isn't that sooooo unfair" Red has talked about it in her Arachne video, you oughta go check it out to see what I mean by that

[@CollinMcLean]

@@adlirez I did... it's why I came away with that conclusion... It feels like Red is being a bit too generous to Athena...

[@arandomcomment1092]

@@CollinMcLean Yeah, like no matter what beating someone over the head and turning them into a spider is fucked up

[@travisoliver6741]

@@CollinMcLean Athena was literally helping the Achaeans in a _massive war against Troy_ and thus had no obligation to help the Trojan Woman. Sure, she probably could have, and reading the accounts of what happened to them afterwards make me think she _should_ have, but she had no reason to do so. Ajax the Lesser, on the other hand, was on her chosen side, and had the audacity to besmirch her temple and _rape a girl that was clinging to a statue of Athena herself_ It was Ares and Aphrodite's (Because she appears at the same time as Ares, so she deserves mention) fault that Diomedes shanked them, considering they were helping the Trojans. Hell, it's Aphrodites fault that _this entire war is happening in the first place_

[@Kate-mj2qs]

So, in a shoddy attempt of an analogy, Quintus has written an extremely large fanfic worthy of praise and its own publishment for fleshing out pieces of plot the originals did not cover. But cancel culture has written the originals off and, with it, the fanfic itself. Now the fanfic is just sitting in its archive, only known by the fandom and sometimes only praised by certain fans.

[@ramoxfireleaderofgauntlets3554]

Yknow I’m both glad and disappointed that a fire can’t wipe out knowledge like that.

[@bara8928]

"I sit amid the dusty books, the dust invades my very soul It coats my heart with weariness and chokes it with despair My life lies beached and withered on a lonely, bleak, uncharted shoal There are no kindred spirits here to understand, or care When I was young, how often I would feed my hungry mind with tales And sought the fellowship in books I did not find in kin For one does not seek friends when every overture to others fails So all the company I carved I build from dreams within Those dreams - from all my books of lore I plucked the wonders one by one And waited for the day that I was certain was to come When some new hero would appear whose quest had only now begun With desperate need of lore and wisdom I alone could plumb And then, ah then, I'd ride away to join with legend and with song The trusted friend of heroes, figured in their words and deeds Until that day, among the books I'd dwell - but I have dwelt too long And like the books I sit alone, a relic no one needs I grow to old, I grow too old, my aching bones have made me lame And if my futile dream came true, I could not live it now The time is past, long past, when I could ride the wings of fleeting fame The dream is dead beneath the dust, as 'neath the dust I bow So, un-regarded and alone I tend these fragments of the past Poor fool who bartered life and soul on dreams and useless lore And as I watched despair and bitterness enclose my heart at last Within my soul's dark night I cry out, "Is there nothing more?" " The Archivist - Mercedes Lackey

[@jaojao1768]

Thank you for sharing this, it really is a great poem!

[@bara8928]

@@jaojao1768 Thank you! I try to find something for every OSP Video.

[@MarquisdeL3]

"Would all 37 of Shakespeare's play have made it through?" You say that as if there's not two Lost Plays: Love's Labours Won (also possibly an alternative title for a surviving play) and Cardenio. Also, specifically with Taming of the Shrew, there's a framing device that disappears after a little bit, so there's some discussion over whether that was lost or if the framing device was an addition.

[@15oClock]

So, Quintus is the Greco-Roman equivalent of Obsidian: Decently well-known, expands on popular stories, and is straight up cursed to have his work given the cold shoulder on its initial release.

[@guggelguggel7491]

Who's obsidian? All I got googling was the volcanic glass

[@gokbay3057]

@@guggelguggel7491 Game Studio, I think.

[@15oClock]

@@guggelguggel7491 Obsidian Entertainment.

[@woodswake]

@@guggelguggel7491 a video game developer who got their start following up on other western rpgs through contract work - knights of the old republic 2, fallout: new vegas, neverwinter nights 2. during this period they tended to get given impossible deadlines and therefore shipping with a lot of bugs and/or unfinished content (including a lost bonus for the staff due to a metacritic score that was under the target by one point), but these games are today widely praised over their 1.0 counterparts by bioware and bethesda for their stories and game design. today obsidian does original WRPGs, although you can definitely spot some "let's take [western rpg franchise] and make our own, better version" with pillars of eternity (baldur's gate), outer worlds (fallout plus mass effect), and the upcoming avowed (skyrim).

[@HerculesMays]

It's so surprising to see this video come out! I'm actually in the middle of reading through the Posthomerica (At book 5 currently) and I've been saying it's criminally underappreciated and unknown! Sure, it's not as good as Homer, but what epic writers were? For what it is, Quintus is a highly talented, and crucial writer who preserved the only cohesive narrative tying together the Iliad and Odyssey, and that's something I think most of us in the comments can really commend him for. If you're curious for my thoughts on the Posthomerica thus far, I'll share a bit: Pros: -Quintus is talented and fluent enough in the techniques of Homer, that you can jump from the Iliad over to the Posthomerica with no real whiplash from the change in authors, which is great! -It's so cool (to me at least) seeing more of the charaters like Ajax, Odysseus and Achilles. Quintus' work can hit some real high points of emotion and excitement such as when Achilles enters a DBZ-esque fight with Memnon, king of Ethiopia. Both Memnon and Achilles are well-honoured by Zeus, so he basically gives both of them superhuman levels of power and the earth is described as cracking around them and fierce storms flying all about. Then you have Achilles who,, after being mortally wounded by Apollo in the heel, continues to fend off the swarming Trojans as his body weakens and he finally falls in battle. -As you may have gathered from above, Quintus work rarely comes off as dry Cons: -Though his similes can be quite enjoyable, you **WILL** hear about the lions and the shepherds more times than you could imagine lol, so you've been warned. -I feel like Quintus isn't as bold or daring with what his characters say or do as you'll find in Homer's Iliad which *really surprised me at times. Like when Diomedes attacked Aphrodite and wounded Ares in the Iliad. Still, I feel like this is understandable since Quintus probably didn't want to stray too far from the public's consensus on what happened after the Iliad. -You **REALLY** should read the Iliad before this and have a good familiarity with the naming schemes for characters from the Iliad. You're rarely going to hear Nestor called by his name, you'll *much* more often hear something like "And then the famed son of Neleus (Nestor), gifted in oratory spoke to Thetis". Achilles himself is often referred to as the son of Peleus or the grandson of Aeacides (I think that's how you say it?). So it can get frustrating trying to know who is who when characters are rarely referred to by name. (Which strangely reminds me of the Tale of Genji where virtually no characters have names of their own) Overall. *Definitely give the Posthomerica a read if you have any interest in the Homeric epics and want to see the continuation of the Iliad and start of the Odyssey, you won't regret it. The easiest to find addition is probably the Loeb classical library edition of the Posthomerica for 35 dollars. It's the version I'm reading.

[@brianholmes1812]

The fact that this is the first I'm hearing of this book is the biggest tragedy of all, Quintus really got done dirty by history, his forgotten work should easily be just as important to the canon as Homer and virgil

[@taylor_green_9]

"Everyone's favourite equestrian war crime" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. Too accurate!

[@brennanruiz1803]

"Inadvertently burned down by Caesar" Ah I see, you're still trying to cover up for Cleo.

[@juls6210]

Could you please make a video about the history of Austria? It was such a huge european power and gets often times overlooked because its such a small state today.

[@incognitoman3656]

“Could you please come to Brazil? We really want you here and it is such a nice place” The problem here is that multiple already exist. Czechoslovakia, maybe?

[@buttpain171]

As an Austrian myself, I can only say Austrian history only becomes interesting after the Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867 with the occasional interesting Habsburg monarch before that. Essentially Austrian history is dominated by Habsburg history until the end of the empire in 1918 and creation of the 1st Austrian Republic, at which point the most interesting part of Austrian history begins.

[@CollinMcLean]

@@buttpain171 It's also one of the birthplaces of the Celtic Halstatt culture.

[@tompatterson1548]

Have you seen guy bloke’s video

[@buttpain171]

@@CollinMcLean I agree celtic culture is very interesting, but you can't really link it to Austrian history. It only was partly based in the geographic area, that is Austria today.

[@connorwilson2475]

The apparent unoriginality in such earlier story telling means there are probably tropes that we need to talk about…

[@loadeddice4696]

Are you familiar with the term "Deus Ex Machina"?

[@connorwilson2475]

@@loadeddice4696 Heard it, heard of it, little confused ngl lol

[@connorwilson2475]

So yeah, vaguely

[@loadeddice4696]

@@connorwilson2475 The name comes from Greek theatre, originally. It literally means "God from the machine", and it refers to points in Greek plays where Our Hero would be trapped and a god would descend from the heavens (or stage right, either or) to save him

[@connorwilson2475]

@@loadeddice4696 Interesting, thanks for the explanation, now I know

[@Sojoboscribe]

One of my favorite stories about lost literature is that of the Hill of the Books, which I learned about in a Ripley's Believe it or Not! book. Apparently, during the Islamic period (around 1500, I think), a noted noble and scholar was traveling in Egypt in a caravan accompanied by his personal library (which was very large) The caravan was attacked by Bedouins, who slaughtered everyone in it. When the Bedouins found the books, they simply ripped off the covers (to recycle the leather for saddles) and tossed the actual manuscripts in a huge pile in the desert, then rode off. That pile REMAINED in the desert for the next 400 years and actually became a way marker called appropriately, the Hill of the Books. It was on a MAJOR caravan route and people rode by it for centuries, until it finally disintegrated around 1900 and collapsed. So here was a pile of books sitting where MANY people could see it for centuries, and, as far as I can tell, NO ONE ever tried to dig up and recover any of the books. It's similar to what Caliph Omar said when he re-burned the Library of Alexandria for the last time in 640AD. He asserted "All of the books in the library either disagree with the Koran or they agree with it. If they disagree, they are heresy, if they agree they are superfluous"

[@thebeltcameback1553]

just saying, if there wasn't so much media nowadays, i'd totally do what quintus was doing. for my satisfaction.

[@brya9681]

it's why I'm actively into vide game preservation. no art form should be forgotten we gotta keep the sit we make, someone dow the line will want to seeing and use it as a link to us.

[@zimattack9994]

Troy or the case study on why we dont use dynamite for archeology

[@ZephLodwick]

I feel that Netflix should make a massive TV programme that adapts the whole Epic Cycle, from Paris's Judgement all the way to the returns of the various heroes.

[@tompatterson1548]

and Neoptolemus kills Priam on the altar of Thor,

[@qdHazen]

"...would all 37 [of Shakespeare's plays] made it through? Ehh..." **Glares in **_Love's Labour's Won_****

[@joeevans5770]

5:38 remakes: a tale as old as time

[@benjamincislowski3339]

Thank you, Blue! I studied classics, but from the history side instead of the literary side, so while I appreciate all the Caesar jokes, that was old hat for me. But I knew nothing about the Posthomerica! This is absolutely fascinating and I have a new rabbit hole to dive into now!

[@jakobraahauge7299]

Oh, Red! What a beautiful and captivating image of Sappho - that's genius applied! I was literally stunned and stopped listening when she appeared on my screen! Very lovely, lively, and amazing as always too Blue! But I believe we can agree that it's ok to fanboy when genius art appears before our very eyes!

[@jaojao1768]

2:10 however if you look at for example the Myriobiblos by Photius you can see that the Byzantines continued to read ancient literature in various genres. In fact I believe Islamic scholars were mostly interested in scientific and philosophical writing rather than classical poetry

[@mute1085]

Thank you, this was interesting! I'll admit I've never read Iliad or Odyssey, so I had no idea it was this limited in scope. But as a child I had a book that was a collection of adapted Ancient Greek myths, and a significant part of it was dedicated to the Epic Cycle. While some parts of it were obviously stitched together, the transition between the Iliad part and PostHomerica part was so seamless I didn't even notice it was there. And that book had all the sources properly listed, now I have to find it and verify Quintus got the credit where it's due.

[@uhhhscizo6531]

Oh my God, *I* live in Smyrna!!! Tennessee, but, still

[@etaIItheta]

I bought (and read) The Alexiad after your video on it, Blue. 10/10, definitely recommend.

[@incognitoman3656]

When was this, can you give me the link?

[@thomassaxon8254]

It's a good read. Anna Komnena does not get enough credit. Her style and prose is great in the original as well although more challenging than Psellos.

[@robopope7584]

Those book covers are so good. I would absolutely buy them

[@liamcoughlin4052]

Great vid! I loved how passionate you were in the subject matter while also being concise and clear. Something about this video in particular just felt like your style clicked into place really well.

[@LughUngol]

I just wanna say Thank you for making this video Blue. I've long since wondered where we got most of our information about what happens in the Epic Cycle if we only have the Illiad and the Odyssey, and now I have a much better idea along with a bunch more books to read! :D Thank you so much for making this video! I think you guys are the best history-makers around.

[@bobfrancis123]

Sounds like Quntus was doing the same kind of preservation/reimagining that a certain professor in Oxford would be famous for in the mid 20th Century.

[@Woodclaw]

True, although the work of said professor is now subject to same kind of reverential awe that put push past critics to disregard the work of Quintus.

[@thomassaxon8254]

Am I being dense and you're referencing Tolkien? Because he was Oxford no? Or is there another mid 20th century professor I'm completely forgetting?

[@bobfrancis123]

@@thomassaxon8254 oops. Yay edit button! Misremembered

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

I guarantee that St Jerome read this and had it in his collection. He loved his funny little classical books, and was a habitual hoarder of them.

[@amyr.7962]

Blue, this is *exceptionally* good work. Bravo!

[@GreatHylian]

I'm glad you didn't include Telegony as part of the Epic Cycle here. You know, since it's a bizarre fanfic sequel to the Odyssey based on a tiny handful of surviving lines of the text.

[@gautamvaze1101]

The "Equestrian War Crime" joke had me in stitches.

[@BeepBoopBee]

You keep making me wanna try to read these ancient teksts, but then I remember something every time. I got adhd and thus cannot understand the texts due to long and detailed sentences. Also I don't know Greek or Latin 😅 Which is a shame, cuz the stories sound quite interesting

[@kashana9925]

this is helping me understand a tiny bit of my classes more, thx keep up the good work, loved the vid :))

[@matthewwalton5536]

Thank you for the video, and I hope you folks have a beautiful day.

[@justanotherhobbit7215]

My brain made me think something cursed so I'm gonna share this cursed thought ; The postHomerica was a fan fic explaining the time skip in cannon.

[@jean-paulaudette9246]

Wow, what a parade of gorgeous artwork. This is a real joy to look at.

[@here4thecatvids]

It's video's like these that really get me excited about old texts and also wanting to know more about how this in other area's of the world.

[@silverbullet1620]

Homer had the title of Rhapsode. He wad the first rapper. ... I'll see myself out.

[@merrittanimation7721]

To be fair hearing the Iliad rapped doesn't sound like a bad idea

[@incognitoman3656]

Who here thinks PostHomerica looks like an amazing book? PS, mentioning Islam was pretty nice of Blue, I just played AC revelations (up to the 5th sequence), I know it’s not really true, but it was nice making my own library of classics in Istanbul

[@incognitoman3656]

Oh, wait 6th sequence. Anyways,

[@NebulousAltair]

I know this is a weird comment but recently I've been re-watching these videos almost constantly, and now I've heard Blue's voice so much it doesn't even sound human anymore. It's got this weird metallic sound to it now. I don't know how to feel about that-

[@williammilhans5146]

Every time I finish one of Blue's videos the whole world seems brighter ~

[@maxschreck9988]

I would love to see Red cover and draw "Song of Achilles"

[@petertrudelljr]

Heh, and I'd like Red to cover the "Tales of Brave Ulysses".

[@iocatrix9871]

So, I recently started listening to the OSPod, and I am at episode 12, which contains a conversation about this topic, when I look at my notifications to see Blue has posted a full episode on the topic of lost epics. I just think that's so cool, so thank you Blue!

[@fangirl38]

“After our favourite speedy boy’s death” shouldn’t be so funny to me- 😂😂

[@mesektet5776]

I actually *just* finished re-reading the Iliad yesterday - so, this is good timing for me.

[@conrad4852]

I appreciate your love of all things Greek & Roman!

[@Endiiii]

I just found you lads randomly, you are wonderful at making ingo entertaining and the style of the art is wonderful!

[@thebeltcameback1553]

i remember this question on the podcast. neat that it got turned into a video.

[@morgangallowglass8668]

I wish you could see me giving you a standing ovation! Bravo, SIR, BRAVO!

[@Ilichburger]

Outstanding work as always, Blue. I think it would be really cool if you did an episode about other Ancient authors Historians like to dunk on. Xenophon is a clear example, Cassius Dio too, and I don't always think it's fair, although understanding way they were relegated in such a way would be interesting to explore!

[@danielmalinen6337]

This was new to me. Thanks for this great video and new info. I myself live in a country where there are some people who think and consider that the lost writings never existed is a much simpler and more direct explanation for the absence of missing writings and that they have not been found. They abuse Occam's razors to weed out the "more complex" explanation that the missing texts existed. However, I want to believe that there are numerous lost ancient writings that have been lost for one reason or another, instead of all the existing writings already being found. It is not the simplest but the most sensible conclusion, because it is impossible for all texts to cope for a number of reasons. I had never heard of Quintus' work about Troy and thought Iliad and Odyssey is the only account of this ancient event. But I’m glad to hear about Quintus' work, as it supports my idea that lost works existed but are now lost, and it’s great to hear that I’m not alone with my view.

[@hwithumlaut8288]

I have been waiting for this video for years

[@robbieliddle2462]

It's a small detail but I like how you made slightly different covers for the books, like at 4:57 the smaller ones have a slightly lighter colour and different detailing!

[@theboundlesshumanspirit7457]

I refuse to live in a world where Aeneas gets his own epic poem but ma boy Diomedes sentenced to getting attention only in lost poems

[@jtalle01]

Blue trying to downplay his burning of the Library of Alexandria.

[@MrZeyami]

Awesome, I had no idea about this work! Very exciting stuff from an anthropological perspective.

[@kipofthemany2213]

Wow! I had no idea that the history of ancient Greek epics was so complicated! Thanks Blue! This was neat!!

[@CactusJackIV]

BLUE!! I love the channel, you can see all the hard work that Red, and yourself put into cheat video.

[@00Linares00]

I'm at a reading classics "roadtrip", so thanks for bringing this to my attention

[@CacklingAntagonist]

I feel like what Stephen Fry is doing today with his Greek mythology books is just the same as Homer and Quintus of Smyrna

[@ejsmith7626]

Really love these disscusions of ancient literature. While I rarely get around to reading it. I love knowing it exists.

[@TheGreyTurtleEntertainment]

The Post Homerica: Romans doing fanfic of ancient Greek epics. I love this.

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Impossible! Perhaps the Ancient World's Archives are incomplete?

[@stevedonkers9087]

I bought the PostHomerica because of this video and I read it in one sitting on a Sunday. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm looking into Bibliotheca now, hoping to find a nice copy somewhere.

[@michaeljohnangel6359]

Brilliant, Blue! Thanks, man!!!!

So thank you for busting one of the most popular(if not the most popular) myths about knowledge preservation.

[@vividdaydream1516]

Quintus really is one of the OG *Good Fanfiction Writers.* He wrote a novel-length re-telling a well known story, but in a way that used the original as a foundation to build on. Settings got more worldbuilding, characters were fleshed out, and disjointed side-stories were neatly tied together to create a united continuity.

[@chrismahanna8101]

Lmao the Jocat smite sound effect was perfect

[@OverlySarcasticProductions]

Gotta pay respect to the classics -B