Hitchens on the death of meritocracy | SpectatorTV

Peter Hitchens and Adrian Wooldridge discuss the rise of the progressive aristocracy - where the notion of IQ is replaced with WQ, 'a woke quotient'. What could this mean for the future of meritocracy?
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[@brocktoon8]

It's not even a hierarchy of real virtue; it's a hierarchy of false virtue which is really self serving.

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@reinhardtburger7108]

@UP your argument is native and narcissistic. The problem I have with your argument is that your entire view is that an oppressed individual can't get into a position of power, instead of what the effects are of having an incompetant idiot in charge. So you would like a brain surgeon who can't do surgery to operate on you or an engineer who barely past their exams and can't really do the math to design the bridge that you drive on every day. Your problem is that you only think of how you would feel if you were the oppressed individual, not if you were the rest of society that had to deal with the effects of their incompetence.

[@amarissimus29]

@@Fuji_9.63 Good point. Lincoln was born in a log whitehouse. It's well known.

[@GStev-qf1zl]

SCRAMBOWLEDGEEZHASZTAZBAYCAJOOKOSHAPLEEEDZ!

[@GStev-qf1zl]

@@amarissimus29 lard

[@orkneyancestor2059]

Imagine an outsider now getting employment at the BBC on ability.

[@Fuji_9.63]

how do you define ability in a kids tv show ? answer me.

[@numbersix8919]

Who blew up the Nord Stream pipelines? I want to see if you would qualify at the BBC.

[@numbersix8919]

@@Fuji_9.63 What was your favorite kids' show when you were a kid?

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@numbersix8919 the banana splits. i'm quite old.

[@numbersix8919]

@springup24 In that case, what merit indeed is necessary?

[@keithrobert5117]

Perhaps we can all agree that, since 1945, Britain has hardly scaled the heights. On virtually every indicator, we have one of the most abysmal, sclerotic school systems anywhere. Europe, China, Asia, make us look remedial.

[@nerdimmunity7672]

I work in recruitment in the engineering sector, HR talk about DIE but the realisation hits when we can’t find female civil engineers

[@fredforsythe8310]

We have a stick insect as prime minister and a hawk faced turtle as chancellor. They control a pit of snakes with a few rabbits thrown in. Nature and natural selection favour meritocracy.

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@inglepropnoosegarm7801]

@@Fuji_9.63 I hope you don't mind flying on aircraft piloted by 'diversity hires'.

[@fredforsythe8310]

@@Fuji_9.63 Try fighting a top class kick boxer and then let me know how you get on with your 'circumstance' i can wait until after surgery my friend.

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@fredforsythe8310 I boxed at 75kg in the army in the 80's, unbeaten... okay soft boy.

[@fredforsythe8310]

@@Fuji_9.63 I taught Muhammad Ali when I gave up professional boxing, 120kg all muscle Never joined the army too many ladyboys. okay Mr Bullshit?

[@larrydugan1441]

I can assure you the fighter pilot business was merit based. The alternative is a smoking hole in the ground.

[@bengreen171]

You realise that the story of the Tuskegee squadron kinda highlights the flaw in your assertion, right?

[@Fuji_9.63]

to be a fighter pilot you have to be an officer, that requires academic qualifications for entry. there may be millions of people who are better instinctive pilots that simply aren't academic so are refused entry. oh dear, looks like I just destroyed your shallow logic fella.

[@stevemarshall4822]

These are dubious counter arguments. Intense technical training and retention is necessary for any advanced vocation. If you can't gain the skills, you can't do the job. In Wartime we needed pilots and so the various air forces would train anyone who COULD be capable of doing the job and learning the necessary skills - many were still rejected. In Peacetime we have the luxury of recruiting those who are deemed only the VERY BEST: technical abilities and qualifications, in a much more technologically based age, are a good indicator for this (as well as demonstrating the necessary degree of application). Do you want someone fixing your leg who feels he can do a good job or someone who is highly trained and qualified to? Get those chips off your shoulders.

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@stevemarshall4822 if you knew any history you would know that academic qualifications into some professions were a DELIBERATE ploy to exclude the working class who didn't have access to education. it was designed to maintain the master servant system from feudalism.

[@larrydugan1441]

@@Fuji_9.63 actually I was a fighter pilot and barely made it out of high school but got their on merit. Oh dear ....you don't know what you are talking about.

[@izzyplant8428]

Keep exposing the dross. Thank you.

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@reinhardtburger7108]

@UP your argument is native and narcissistic. The problem i have is that you look at this from the view that someone who is oppressed can't get into a position of power. Instead of the fact that if an idiot is put in charge, everything goes to shit. Why would you want someone who can't do brain surgery to do brain surgery or an engineer who barely past and can't do the math design the bridge that you drive on every day. The fact that you can even suggest that getting the best person for the job is a bad idea just shows that your entire world view is feelings based and that you are incapable of any rational thought. otherwise, it would be clear to you that the outcome is more important than the person who drives this outcome.

[@nb6949]

Always good to see PH.

[@McFraneth]

Spain ignores the talented.

[@Melody-st4df]

First time I've heard the Brexit vote described in any real way. Adrian Wooldridge states that it was a vote of anger, I and many who voted with me to leave were making a 'protest vote' against the poverty trap. Not as has been described by the remainers a racist vote demanding all people of colour to leave our country!! Thank you for this intelligent conversation.

[@Geordiicus]

Unfortunately Hitchins is right, but we can't just lie back and get completely rolled over

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@frankyyaggabot6222]

@@Fuji_9.63 You seem hung up on this point. There is no merit in greed and oppressive circumstances often bring forward the best in people. Lazy/easy civilisations (the current state of the West) invariably fall. Meritocracy is upheld by civilisations that guarantee the best are given pathways to be the best in whatever their chosen profession. That benefits society and society functions best when that occurs. When you tilt the scales so that something other than merit is the mechanism by which people find their role in the world - rot sets in!

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@frankyyaggabot6222 the best evidence that you are 100% wrong is the fact that the greatest inventions around the time of the industrial revolution came from people who were financially secure and didn't need to work. they were bored so they experimented with chemicals and mechanisms that changed the world. if people have it easy THEY DO NOT GET LAZY THEY GET INVENTIVE !

[@deanodog3667]

​@@Fuji_9.63 it was good enough for napoleon!

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@deanodog3667 idk what that means.

[@martynspooner5822]

Equity is a weird woke concept. All things can never be equal, some people are smarter, some better looking etc. Should we have equity in music so someone who cannot play violin be in the orchestra for equity sake.

[@skymagenta8758]

it's a populist wrong interpretation? it's justice

[@martynspooner5822]

@@skymagenta8758 That is disengenuous, nowdays it goes way past justice. Most people, I would be confident in saying, want justice ie true justice.

[@vaska1999]

I don't see how what's being pushed as equity amounts to equity at all.

[@Fuji_9.63]

great strawman there buddy. tell me is jeff bezos ten thousand times better than you ?

[@martynspooner5822]

@@Fuji_9.63 Better or worse is subjective, therein lays a lot of the problems with this equity stuff. But equity for equitys sake is madness, I would like to see everyone with equal opportunity but that is very different to equity.

[@bath_neon_classical]

'the old system of meritocracy' ended when they invented GCSE coursework.

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@bath_neon_classical]

@@Fuji_9.63 the chat robot was trying to explain this to me, i got confused around that point of merit not being a significant thing, merit it seems has no merit and now the whole idea seems meaningless

[@killerrabbit2693]

You don't really understand how the world works. Coursework is expected in interviews for many roles.

[@bath_neon_classical]

@@killerrabbit2693 i don't like how the world works, and however it tranlates into modern requirements for recruitment, it doesn't negate what i see as the negative implications for coursework over examinations.

[@killerrabbit2693]

@@bath_neon_classical Which just shows you don't understand tech. Tech fields require skills which are outside theory or memorising formulas. You're stuck in the past.

[@ladydove5895]

This was a good discussion based on what i heard from Wooldridge and the moderator's questions. Wish I could hear what Hitchen has to say.

[@jonathangriffin1120]

I don't have a problem, I got use to 'Whispering Bob' on TOGWT in the seventies.........

[@anynimus1617]

Oh man, I just wrote something similar before scrolling down and seeing that I am not the only one having trouble with Hitchen's murmurings.

[@DavidA-ps1qr]

Race has been thrown into this equation because in the UK we have allowed uncontrolled immigration that has in turn allowed separate societies to form. I'm in favour of immigration as long as the immigrants accept the society they come into. Sadly, that's not happening.

[@skymagenta8758]

many patches of kosovo

[@mickymack1230]

I studied Photography at LCP in 1986 and I was subjected to "Woke" radical feminist ideas from tutors who had studied at the Polytechnic of Central London under the tutelage of Victor Burgin and were heavily influenced by his book "Thinking Photography".The "Woke" in the Universities in the U.K I suspect are the children of the generation I attended college with.The visual Arts and "Media studies" ( terrible term) is saturated with "Woke" ideas.

[@Fuji_9.63]

name one woke idea you think is bad.... just one.

[@jamesadey8744]

@@Fuji_9.63 Hating white people?

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@jamesadey8744 that's a strawman.

[@numbersix8919]

@@jamesadey8744 Maybe the term "hating whiteness" sounds too much like "hating white people"?

[@jamesadey8744]

@@numbersix8919 Sounds identical to me.

[@Ukepa]

good segment... enjoyed mediator and both experts

[@iluomobravo]

There is something immensely cute about that woman. I can’t explain it but she’s adorable

[@curiositycloset2359]

Yay nihilists are our judges of value! What can go wrong?

[@Fuji_9.63]

strawman.

[@curiositycloset2359]

@@Fuji_9.63 explain how that's a straw man. Sheeet, explain what you think a nihilist is?

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@curiositycloset2359 you are suggesting that the left are by definition nihilists, that is a strawman buddy boy.

[@kinorspielmann4649]

Hitchens (Eeyore)... "Moan. Complain. Nobody cares about me. Things ain't what they used to be. What's the point? Doom and gloom. No one listens to me. I've been saying this for years..." 💤💤💤💤

[@trevorandrade]

And suppose he is right? Its interesting that in your response you don't appear to care about that at all.

[@dissonantiacognitiva7438]

Some groups it's culture, some groups it's genetics Constant cousin on cousin action does yield problems which are quite well documented in the medical field

[@williammuk886]

11:55 - I agree 100%

[@terencefield3204]

Meritocracy is sadistic shit. As a quick visit to Britain amply demonstrates.

[@AsphodeliaD]

Ah! The tyranny of the weak. Envy as your guiding principle.

[@threethrushes]

Thankfully, there are pockets of civilisation still left in the world where one can flourish, irrespective of immutable phenotypical traits.

[@bastiat6865]

Presence does not equate to general shift in bigotry. You are not well-placed to make the determination that racism is over. You are not affected by the racism from which people of your class and less-melanated phenotype benefit.

[@anynimus1617]

Peter Hitchens : mumble mumble murmur LEFT mumble mumble mumble murmur JUSTICE, mumble mumble mumble murmur FOOLISHLY mumble murmur mumble ... I think I'll need to stick to reading his insights as my American brain cannot handle upper class British murmurings. Great discussion all the same.

[@Set-ri6rs]

Its sad to say that this is agreeable and why we are in such a mess.

[@killerrabbit2693]

What mess exactly?

[@chrisdunderdale]

Surely the other half of the meritocracy coin is wealth and ownership that is crowding out the best in society from making a meaningful impact? Much easier to go work for KPMG than change the world with new ideas.

[@PostcardsHome0723]

" best in society" as measured by who?

[@charlesoleary3066]

The French government very kindly put them on our phones as well 🤨 we should have a FOFF button

[@nuqwestr]

14:06 Agreed, having lived it as a schoolboy in the early 1960s, it became baked in then, the cake being eaten now, and what a tummy ache there is.

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@hieronymusbosch9421]

​@@Fuji_9.63 not illogical or nonsense. Does it overcome all barriers of class and snobbery? No it doesn't but what is your better alternative? The consequences of the current woke discriminatory policies will be terrible when they are fully revealed in time

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@hieronymusbosch9421 sorry I didn't realize I was talking to a person who can see the future.

[@weebrianful]

If only we had ever had real meritocracy. That would have been nice .

[@hejla4524]

Always a question of degree. The grammar schools were an important step forward.

[@georgewarner5496]

Well said guys. The eyes of the Lord preserve knowledge and he overthrows the words of the transgressor. Pray to God that He will get rid of those reprobates that run the ECHR. Weird effects stem from weird causes.

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@liberalmatt]

is this the same god that endorses rape, incest, slavery, genocide and infanticide? Just asking...

[@numbersix8919]

@@Fuji_9.63 Merit does exist and there are ways to test for it. Just saying, some people really do have exceptional or special abilities. Sometimes that can pair with a matching interest, sometimes not. These are basic principles of education. We want people to fulfill their nature, do we not?

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@numbersix8919 where did I say that merit doesn't exist ? you are a typical half truth speaker. try to get it through your thick head that being better at something does not mean you are someones master earning 500x as much.

[@FranciscoSa-ih9fe]

LIVE: Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. expected to announce presidential run Reuters

[@jkuhn6179]

I had to listen to This discussion 6 times before I could translate and comprehend Peter Hitchens contributions. When I realized he was a Columnist for his chosen niche to make his mark in this Career Field. Difficulty in linguistics and pronounced verbage really made me struggle to follow. Anyways, the area's where the American Experiment gives potential optimistic paths for Cutting Off and Getting the Locomotive back on the Rails without locking up the break's beyond a total rebuild. The wisdom contained within the Constitution by the Author's Will be Required to avoid an all out Destruction of Society as we know it on our side of the place pond. We have all the means, all the methods. I just Hope and Prey we have All The Will to Once Again Repeat the Process to Save America from Itself. Thank You So Much. Let's see if I can interpret the plan and put into action.

[@rpgbb]

This is nothing new, already F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote about it in the Great Gatsby. We are ruled by boys clubs from public schools and preps, their only merit is that they are “sons of”. Communist and Socialist countries like China or Vietnam are not any better, only the sons of cadres get positions of power, the WEF global leaders only selects people who haven’t achieved anything in life but were born in privilege and Singapore and Japan are ruled like family businesses. The only way is to put restrictions on family, personal connections, even the amount of positions giving to particular schools, university.

[@alistairmacrae4870]

The guy with the specs mentioned Tony Blair?

[@bradwalton3977]

2:50 -- he needs to define virtue here. Woke virtue, does not mean the same thing as classical virtue.

[@joeclarke7048]

Interesting post. Yes. The left confuse virtue with victimhood, (real or perceived). This is perfectly demonstrated by social housing allocation, whereby the need for housing is dictated by "points" of social disadvantage - a separate issue altogether.

[@samuelglover7685]

"Woke" virtue -- hey, is it fun being a self-parody? I figure it's got to be, given how often blowhards love whining about "woke" this and "woke" that and "woke" the other. Hell, the only people who even use the word are clueless twats who apparently never even suspect how ridiculous they sound.

[@Fuji_9.63]

you little fella are in no position to define virtue. meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@jameslabs1]

Stein's Law, "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop." - Fear not current problems. Yoda-ish haha

[@achipinthesugar]

Great, but there's only one "Hitchens". Let's return to calling this fine gentleman "Peter Hitchens".

[@sgordon8123]

Meritocracy is a flawed idea.

[@thehammer9599]

Making groundless assertions is far worse.

[@reddeserted13]

Is this any different from conservatives telling you that plumbers and mechanics know best about everything?

[@robertcross6834]

Hierarchy of self-righteousness

[@GStev-qf1zl]

MBtowszALfaBetChaR0me0xfordJerizAdSuMSop2dorquizTarDizK0baC6rol0MazERqueenParAGmustardGasChainENjrIpZoFax0lordyzHoystaaAZkookooNoLUcoZaRowC!

[@debaston7158]

Humanity is being captured Capture :- v. take prisoner, gain control over No is a beautiful word 🙏

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@houstonsam6163]

Interesting discussion. Unfortunately I think Hitchens is correct, conservatives have lost and there is likely no coming back. The people called "conservatives" haven't conserved anything, they've just been the last adapters of social change and the most reluctant to make the next leftward move - but they've made the leftward moves. The Jacksonian populist right here in the US is populist, it is not conservative. American "conservatives" maintain a belief in a "silent majority", a belief now borrowed by Trump's sycophants, but in reality the country is not conservative and there is no serious conservative voice. The battle now is between "progressive" leftism and pragmatism. Americans are fundamentally pragmatic people and if the new "progressive" hierarchy is to be toppled it will be from pragmatism, not conservatism.

[@susanwray6788]

And the rise of mediocrity by design

[@PapaEli-pz8ff]

It certainly seems to be the case

[@niknikmoore]

Don't forget to LIKE the video

[@Sinsteel]

Weren't you previously judged by merit *within one's group* ?

[@reddeserted13]

Pound shop Ed Abbey

[@chriswillsdon992]

Interesting and parallels some of Alexander Dugin's thinking on this matter. Would be interested to see Hitchens and Dugin have a good chat now the world is where it is at.

[@terryhand]

I have never a great deal of respect for Hitchens, but I hope he would never sink to those depths.

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@peterbettell1361]

Peter Hitchens is always so contrary with anyone he debates most of the time it’s because he has this very high opinion of himself I mean obviously when you are debating you will not agree on everything but he never seems to be able to find that ground, on which he can agree with anyone on anything, he mumbles his way through the conversation so it’s difficult enough hearing what he is saying, he is just an annoying pompous bloke , and another thing mr Hitchens please don’t compare yourself to Jordan Peterson he would run rings around you in a debate

[@paulgrieve7031]

Utterly

[@eddyk2016]

We have an Asian PM and now a Muslim in Scotland, before a woman, Truss, same with Scotland (Sturgon) we have an Asian London mayor, Black president before Trump, black people in both Labour and Tories, yet the media and society in the west, would make you'd believe we were all in the KKK.

[@thehammer9599]

There’s no end-point to cultural Marxism, it was never about equality, just revenge, envy and power.

[@johnjobs3027]

Merits and standards discriminate against blacks

[@thehammer9599]

But not orientals or Indians. Hmmm

[@ahartify]

Hitchens sounds like Putin to me. They'd probably get on very well together. I still haven't a clue as to what 'woke' means, though. Does anyone?

[@williammuk886]

Ignorant

[@Mr.Artude]

If you don’t have an idea of what “woke” may 15:51 16:20 15:34 15:39 17:38 stand for, then I would suggest that you have not thought deeply on the matter. I would propose that it is a broad category that contains certain signifiers including a belief in the usefulness of identity politics, a prioritising of equity over the goal of equality of opportunity, a desire to demonstrate ideological virtue, and a distinctly overdeveloped need to identify offence in social interactions whether intended or accidental…

[@thehammer9599]

Communism via fabricated oppression.

[@TheNemocharlie]

A throughly decent, interesting and knowledgeable well-moderated debate. (and normally I can't stand the woman....)

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@Libertariun]

You can follow what Hitchens is mumbling in the rolling auto-transcript, assuming you can guess mis-transcriptions like “…half the problem with the supposed rice in this country…”

[@TedATL1]

As usual, Hitchens would be worth listening to except he is mostly inaudible through mumbling and slurring, punctuated periodically by an explosive consonant.

[@coffeecat9854]

Is English your first language?

[@justgivemethetruth]

I hate these pointless aristocratic discussions about undefinably vague meaningless terms. Peter Hitchens has a great brain, and it seldom gets put to real positive use. The latest exception to that would be his discussions on Ukraine and Russia.

[@justgivemethetruth]

​@@elks_in_town​ Why ask why? Do you ever get an answer to stupid questions like that? Do you like wasting time?

[@vrkoven]

Quite an interesting discussion, but with the exception of some passing remarks Wooldridge made near the end it doesn't confront the handful of cogent arguments the left is making about success in meritocratic society. I take those arguments to be, first, that meritocracy is not inherently invalid but that it has succeeded so well that those who have benefited from it are now in a position to entrench themselves and their offspring through levering power and even genetics, thus subverting the aim of the meritocratic system; second, contra Hitchens, there is a pretty clear, if perhaps subliminal, and almost certainly wobbly, element of Christianity in the chosen method of "righting" things in a kind of handicapping exercise, namely statements of Jesus from Matt. 19 and 20 that "the first shall be last, and the last shall be first"; and third, the critique that if equality of opportunity were really on offer then you would expect comparable *proportions* of each social group to succeed, which has not been the case. Now, each of these critiques can and should be refuted (in some cases the analysis is wrong, in some cases the moral argument is wrong, and in some cases the problem is real but the solutions are wrong), but without sustained intellectual effort on the right the simple but wrong nostrums of the left will go unanswered. And if the battle really is lost, as HItchens has often proclaimed, why are we wasting out time talking about it?

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@Fuji_9.63]

please tell me the ''aim of the meritocratic system'' the goal, the end game ? seriously i'm going to laugh in your face when you give your answer. btw I know you haven't thought it through.

[@davidsphere]

Pseudo Intellectual aristocracts lamenting the death of meritocracy is like watching Kenneth Williams perform in Carry on Sergeant, innit!

[@henryburton6529]

Meritocracy hasnt even nearly been achieved in our country - what did the late duke of york say? The most reliable way to be rich in the UK is have a relative who was friends with William the Conqueror

[@justgivemethetruth]

Meritocracy is merely who merits the favor of the plutocrats by kissing their asses the best. This whole discussion is way out of line - but I do enjoy hearing Peter Hitchens' opinions about some things - for instance Ukraine. Not so much here, he is a defender of the status quo.

[@maltesetony9030]

Hitchens - anything for attention.

[@maltesetony9030]

@@elks_in_town No, if I wanted that I'd be making dumb-ass videos out of halitosic interviews.

[@daviovincenzobasile8736]

Kate Andrews Is The Best

[@Demosophist]

Something that never really existed can't die.

[@curtmayer1070]

Shocking how different Peter is from his far more astute late brother Christopher.

[@supportme123]

You mean that nasty little apologist for eternal warfare in the Middle East? No thank you

[@liberalmatt]

Is this the same Hitchens, P. who also supports the monarchy, yet argues in favour of merit? Just asking...

[@moltderenou]

Since you ask, yes. I presume you are a family man with children, and if not, will be. Who lays down the ground rules, you or the person who shouts the loudest ? If it’s you, then based on what ? Merit ?

[@liberalmatt]

@@moltderenou accepted authority by negotiated consensus, since you ask. Thanks for confirming this Hitchens is... a shameless hypocrite.

[@Mitchell_is_smart._You2bs_dumb]

awww the old man in the suspenders is up too late. time for bed, let the adults speak. sorry you are not paying attention to anything the conservatives have been doing except the ones that are doing nothing.

[@simonnorth-coombes]

Can you ask Hitchens to speak up! Or maybe he"s too unsure unlike his brother who was magnificent.

[@ladydove5895]

I didn't gain anything from what he said cause I couldn't hear him.

[@curiositycloset2359]

Do you not think this may be a microphone/sound man issue, not the speaker?

[@arthurdinucci]

I can hear him very well even without my hearing aids in.

[@simonnorth-coombes]

@@curiositycloset2359 His brother was magnificent and quite above in logic and understanding. Peter Hitchens mumbles his way through everything - much like Boris used to bumble his way!

[@curiositycloset2359]

@@simonnorth-coombes I'd say he was a better rhetorician, not logician.

[@erict.watson2460]

Don't think I agree with the claim here of what woke is, or what it's trying to be. Two old white right-wing males discuss, with no counter argument offered, the essence of the source of their latest pearl-clutching. Sounds like a strawman and leaves itself open to that criticism, so is it dishonest, or just providing an echo chamber for the usual audience? Could it be that 'woke' has as many different nuanced meanings as Brexit, and those presented here are none of them? If I wanted to know about the problems encountered by a person who lived in a jungle I'd seek a jungle dweller, not ask these two, then maybe an exchange could commence about what they had revealed, with Peter and Adrian joining in at that stage.

[@samuelglover7685]

I wonder how many of the Spectator's hacks got their sweet gigs via mommy and daddy's connections? If we really want to talk about "merit"......

[@brettburnside1457]

What if the US government gave every American over 20 years old as many thousands per year and increasing $1,000 with every birthday? That way, someone who is 80 is guaranteed 80K per year when they need it most for healthcare, housing, etc. Perhaps eliminate those who make over a certain amount along with other restrictions. AND adults get birthday's back!! 🎂😃💸

[@bengreen171]

quick question - in the last hundred years, how many British prime ministers went to Eton? Was it the Left that got rid of meritocracy? Are these folks under the impression that white males were somehow reaching high positions based on merit? It's a strawman to claim the Left has abandoned meritocracy - as even Hitchens seems to recognise. But we know that our society has not allowed true meritocracy thanks to our history of misogyny and racism. Why do libertarians find it so hard to accept that there can be no actual meritocracy without an equalisation of the playing field. And there is also the question of representation. It seems to me that there is a certain sector of society that latches onto a 'defence' of meritocracy purely to attack the call for representation. They deny the structural bias in society and dare to claim that those who are at the top of this imbalanced society must have got there on merit - and not because of how much money, land and influence they have. They need to pretend meritocracy was real so they can claim the Left has killed it - it's the same old 'they're the real racists' schtick we hear from the Right so much these days. This whole 'death of meritocracy' is built on a couple of lies. Firstly, that there was ever a real meritocracy. Secondly, that diversity hires promote less capable people.

[@thehammer9599]

Another example of why never to trust anyone who starts with ‘quick question’.

[@bengreen171]

@@thehammer9599 really? Can you point to anything I wrote that was innaccurate?

[@jrhemmerich]

I’m not sure that identitarianism should be identified as a virtue system. Isn’t virtue typically associated with moral virtue, which ties in with meritocracy. The merit of right action? Maybe it’s an American/English language thing.

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@jrhemmerich]

@@Fuji_9.63, time and chance happen to us all, that’s why we have a welfare system, but that’s not how you pick your dentist…

[@Fuji_9.63]

@@jrhemmerich so everyone goes to the best dentist ? wow he must be a busy guy hey.

[@Cornz38]

Peter Hitchens is the Poundland version of his sadly deceased better brother.

[@hieronymusbosch9421]

Listen to Mr Hitchins more and you may well change your mind about that. I think his views are much better considered than his late brothers. He is also more prescient.

[@Cornz38]

@@hieronymusbosch9421 Sorry, i've tried and THAT is why i have reached the conclusion i have. His stance on drugs, for example, shows you just how out of touch he is.

[@numbersix8919]

So Adrian is quite right that "woke" (the term is extraordinarily objectionable to me) offers mistaken solutions to "very real problems". As a real leftist myself -- a conservative, in other words -- I couldn't be more in agreement with him. What a shame that these "very real problems" couldn't have been discussed, or even mentioned. That would be the realm of actual left-right debate. In a nutshell, "wokeness" as social conservatives (I'm trying to be nice) perceive it, has always existed within the value-free universe of classical liberalism, in theory at least. This world of atomized individuals, making rational decisions based solely on self interest, is exactly what Thatcher prescribed for us in post-modernity, and it has become the dominant (hidden) ideology everywhere in the developed world today. This system in which people are treated even more like things than before, is, as before, ruled by a crew of old, white, male, mostly Protestant reactionaries, through force of arms and according (as needed) to a self-serving edifice of law and government. In such a system, why shouldn't a lesbian woman of color be a nation's chief drone-strike coordinator? There never was any reason to exclude her, and every reason to bring her in -- the more solidly the better. In fact most of these "woke" people, if you question them, really do tend toward pre-liberal beliefs, or even worse. They are therefore in no sense leftists. They are products of the world we have made, driven mad perhaps by our true religion, consumerism, where anything can be a choice or preference, based on feelings that may not even be real. See them clamoring for war, clapping and shouting their Jingoism. Why not? It's just another preference, right? You've never had better subjects than these. What, then, are you complaining about? A faux religion to replace the old one, according to Peter, for the best of all intentions. According Adrian, an attempt to right something that really has gone wrong. What then really is the source of these misguided "woke" concerns? It's difficult to imagine that a thoughtful person on the right (as it once was perhaps) can't plainly see what has been going on, since the Industrial Revolution at least. The tragedy has been repeated endlessly, it tore the world into two and now has torn it into shreds. It was always horribly misguided to slather Christianity over a fundamentally anti-Christian way of life. If only capitalism had been amenable to some form of moral regulation (Smith's actual Invisible Hand). Disappointingly, to me at least, it is not. Not at scale, anyway. Let's face the awful truth, gentlemen! Anything to do with "woke" is probably more of a consequence than a cause of our wholesale abandonment of meritocracy. That happened when merit was reduced to profit -- profit by any means, with any consequence, meritorious or not -- profit at any cost. It's probable that many people have become idiots (in the original meaning) under these conditions, and not just the "woke".

[@johndale1300]

White people are the state forming people in Britain you fool non whites are alien hence there alienation

[@thomastimms88]

Pretending we've ever had anything close to a meritocracy is quite frankly bizarre

[@edmondironside240]

Politics isn’t about meritocracy or pursuing what is optimal for the country. It’s about about handing out favours for your friends and punishing your enemies. That is what power is. The right still thinks we are on this 19th century plateau that the people in politics have the same morals and values and that the countries interests and the moral and physical well-being of are the interests of those near the levers of power. Politics today isn’t an argument about the best way of achieving the same goal; politics today is a power struggle between chaos and order and the only two parties in power are left wing ones - both tending to more chaos. The Tories are a liberal party. Labour is a leftist party. If you are vaguely conservative you have no representation because what used to be the “right” gave so much ground in the last few decades the Overton window has shifted to such an extent that basic things like the definition of a woman; protecting children from predators; whether a foreign terrorist who’s murdered people and joined an organisation that is at war with this countries interests should be allowed back into the country; all these things have become difficult complex conundrums to consider. The world has indeed gone mad and you can see this by how progressively more depressed Peter Hitchens gets. But I don’t see any one of these pundits actually thinking solutions…

[@nuqwestr]

Meritocracy is a construct of the Patriarchy.

[@thehammer9599]

Haha very good Millie Tant

[@doreenmusson4891]

How can you equate Woke with socialism? I must still find a Woker who can spell socialism let alone understand it!!

[@evolassunglasses4673]

What's interesting is International finance capitalism is funding the Woke agenda. Even Black Lives Matter was funded by Bank of America and PayPal

[@joeclarke7048]

I guess socialism has evolved into "Woke"? I'm remembering Douglas Murray's analogy of St George continuing to search out dragons to kill when the task had long been completed.

[@thehammer9599]

Wokism and socialism - two cheeks of the same arse.

[@Fuji_9.63]

meritocracy is an illogical nonsense that ignores the fact that circumstances are and always will be the greatest factor in ''success'' only greedy people kid themselves ''merit'' is a significant thing.

[@threethrushes]

Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt are beautiful, whilst I have a face like a bag of spanners.

[@thehammer9599]

Congrats, it’s not often you find a commie who is proud of it. Tell me, what cosmic injustice prevented you being successful in life?

[@joechiara]

Thomas Sowell address all these issues and more. Culture, and within a particular group, there can be several subcultures, some healthy others destructive. youtube thomas sowell for interviews and discussion of his books, he written more than 3 dozen, all very well researched, empirically based, and very substantive.