Holland calls ROCKS IN HAT STORY “anti-Mormon lies”

[@Gideonslc]

I served in the Ohio Cleveland Mission from 1990-1992. There were plenty of questions I fielded, which I responded to, telling people they had been deceived by Anti-Mormon lies. When I found out about the Gospel Topics Essays and read them a lot crumbled but I still kept my shelf going. Watching Robert K Ritner's (RIP) interview with John Dehlin proved to be the det-cord for my shelf. I realized the extent the leaders were willing to go to willfully lie about the history of the Church while wanting to know if I am honest in my dealings with my fellow man. Thus my faith evaporated.

[@WilboBagg1ns]

Ritner’s interview is mandatory watching material. It was my final straw as well.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@WilboBagg1nsit was a strong explanation of how deceptive Joseph Smith was in his BoA translation : and thus putting all his translations in question!!!!

[@3thingsfishing427]

Well, you can worship the most high God now instead of some regional, fictional deity.

[@kentthalman4459]

I heard the same thing in Ohio in 1980. At that time it was labeled as "vicious lies". I would find out decades later that the Q15 read about the rock in the hat back in the 70's when they reviewed a draft of Vol1 of the 16 volume set planned by Church Historian Leonard Arrington. After reading the first volume, the Q15 canceled the project even though it had been announced. The leaders have known about the rock in the hat for a very long time.

[@marlenemeyer9841]

Yes, and they let all of us continue to believe everything was just anti-mormon lies. Honesty requires telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Telling the truth NOW only because of members new access to the internet does NOT excuse them from deceiving all of us for decades!!!!

[@bobocomments]

They knew about David whitmer claiming that he used a rock in a hat. Neither oliver nor joseph ever spoke of this methods. David whitmer is not a direct witness.

[@craiglaw7578]

What is Q15?

[@kentthalman4459]

@@craiglaw7578First presidency and quorum of the 12

[@grantpajohnson]

go ahead and trust in the great Leonard Arrington then, a "purist" historian that included even CONFLICTING accounts of the process by those who QUIT the church. Not very good sources, to run with an account by enemies of Joseph Smith even though they find a note or a letter or a statement, etc. So strange that they considered him a false prophet after ALL THEY SAW such as the plates of gold, the angel Moroni, and Moroni was there validating Joseph Smith in front of them, and then they turn against him??? They are not credible at that OLD OLD stage in their lives, on their deathbeds and stating that the Book of Mormon is true, but not the prophet God used to bring it forth. So so inconsistent.

[@sinisterhug1394]

The gas lighting that apostles do (like in this story) is still so amazing to me. It’s like when Susan Bednar’s husband came to my mission, and all the BS he said, just years later for “policy/rules” to change directly from then 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@micahcavanough6362]

I've met David Bednar, he's got intense lizard people vibes.

[@sinisterhug1394]

@@micahcavanough6362 lmao 🦎 So him & Zuckerberg are probably lizard cousins??? 😂

[@brooklynparkse]

How insulting it is to be lied to. For me it was the court documents versus what the church said around the Arizona abuse case. The church lies.

[@phariseeinrecovery7181]

Can you point me to a reference for those court documents please? Thx!

[@scandia67]

These uninspired Brethren have no long game. They lie to satisfy the moment when they're asked to answer an uncomfortable inquiry, never considering that the truth may come out in the future. And when it does, members leave.

[@grantpajohnson]

but its not a lie, there was no rock in a hat thing, that's what OLD OLD MEN who saw the gold plates said, who also apostatized, that's what THEY said. Oh yes, they also HATED Joseph Smith when they said it. Did you consider that bias? I did. That's why I stick with the words that Joseph and Oliver wrote, because they were the CHIEF participants in the translation process. They wrote about it in detail.

[@drbulbul]

You tell this very well!

[@Faith.unraveled]

I appreciate that!❤

[@jameswines6589]

​@@Faith.unraveledPsalm 147:19-20, Amos 3:1-2, GOD can't lie but Joseph Smith did and Jesus warned us About false prophets like Joseph Smith ( Matthew 24:5,11 ) Mormons don't even know What the Gospel is just ask one them but don't laugh because they don't know better because the word of GOD was never taught to them by a Hebrew Israelite, In short everything the Mormon church teaches is nothing but lies everything

[@jameswines6589]

The Mormon church Is a pagan religion

[@jameswines6589]

​@@Faith.unraveledwhere the truth

[@mormonskeptic6836]

I first heard about the stone in a hat story in the MTC as part of a lesson about anti Mormon propaganda.

[@DS-tr2fh]

Then you dig a little deeper and discover Sally Chase instructed a young JS about seer stones. Then you realize that this all started by young frontier pre-teens playing with rocks. 😮

[@mtsaz100]

hahahahaha. Great.

[@randyjordan5521]

Personally, when I go looking for a good church to join, I try to find one that was founded by a convicted fraud artist.

[@rogerharris5515]

Does anybody know where can I get one of those profit seer and revelator starter kits at?

[@mylesmarkson1686]

I think I used to see them at my local K-Mart before it shut down.

[@craiglaw7578]

This is a truth is stranger than fiction story! You’d have to be high on crack to invent such a crazy story… It really is classic folk magic.

[@smallfairytales1231]

He is a master Gaslighter

[@trev9541]

Holland lied to his face

[@carolyearsley]

Holland is so creepy. Good for your friend, on getting out, and you, too.

[@Faith.unraveled]

Super crazy story! And either way you spin it it’s bad. he either knowingly lied or that’s how in the dark church leaders were about some of the most fundamental pillars of Mormon history. Wild!

[@carolyearsley]

@@Faith.unraveled Those so called GAs aren't dumb. They know exactly what they are doing.

[@terrylfluckiger9113]

@@Faith.unraveled I can't take the 'in the dark' idea very far, because if you search online you can find pictures of Joseph's seer stone. The Church published photos of it back in 2015 as part of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. So they have had it in storage the whole time. If Holland was simply in the dark, it was because he didn't bother to check. I totally agree though that any way you spin it, it sure looks bad.

[@jameswines6589]

​@@terrylfluckiger9113it's Called damage control, The Mormons are co-signing to lies ,

[@benjamindavis1130]

Over 20 years ago a colleague who was crazy for Cocoa Puffs was telling about the stone in the hat and I considered it anti Mormon and he was crazy. Fast forward to 2 years ago I read the Gospel topics essays and then I I think holy crap the crazy guy was right. Thanks you Mormon church for the gas lighting.

[@TonyandSusie-MillersontheMove]

So Powerfully stated!🙌The lies are disgusting!Thank you I hope everyone sees This!👀❤️

[@tawneenielsen4080]

This is the problem. You can't call it lies, and then truth then lies, then truth then lies, then truth, without getting completely dizzy.

[@GUAMANIANable]

It was one rock, not rocks. He called it a seer stone.

[@joetaylor8687]

And think of all those guys over a long time in history, each taking the time and effort to repeatedly carve "And it came to pass . . . " into metal plates. Over, and over, and over, and over. I think it was Mark Twain who said if you took out all the "And it came to pass . . . " stuff, you'd end up with just a small pamphlet.

[@psmith535]

I’ve been going through deconstruction exactly a year now. This “rock in the hat” is such an important topic, it’s on the same level of importance as the topic of polygamy. It’s very interesting that the rock in the hat theory and polygamy in Joseph Smith’s life never actually happened. Neither one of them. But the church insists that they both did. President Nelson, a false prophet of God, teaches members clearly that Joseph put his face in a hat to translate, and that he was forced by an angel to practice polygamy. Both of these things are hogwash, and they helped me to understand that President Nelson is definitely not a true prophet. Thank you President Nelson for that clarification. That’s what helped me to start understanding how off track church leadership really is. It absolutely shows the complete disconnect between God and those men at the top that I always revered as true and living prophets, seers, and revelators. No wonder they are always screwing everything up and no wonder they have been caught in so many lies, they have no authority other than what they give themselves and they definitely don’t have a working relationship with God. The church is a massive corporation that controls an enormous amount of money, derived from humble people paying tithing. Yet, the corporation gives very little of that money to the poor. It’s clearly stated in the book of Mormon, by the prophet Moroni, that this exact thing would happen … For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. This abomination is clearly detailed in scripture, in the book of Mormon. The book of Mormon is true. It describes the pollution the LDS Church would become. It describes the fall of the church, and explains how it will tumble to the earth, It explains the cocky attitudes members would develop, the high heads, stiff necks, fancy apparel, etc. It describes the church as eventually becoming “polluted“. it also clearly states that the LDS Church would teach “false, vain and foolish doctrines“. How much more false, vain, and foolish doctrines can there be than pretty much everything that Brigham Young taught? Brigham was not a great leader, he was a horrific man that committed murder more than most LDS church members have strength to wrap their heads around. Brigham is the man behind blacks being denied full access to the church, Brigham was the man behind polygamy with 46 wives … but even more importantly, it’s important to understand that Brigham is the one that always tried to paint the picture that Joseph was into polygamy, marrying other men‘s wives, and having relations with teenage girls. None of that ever happened. It was all bullshit made up and lied about by Brigham Young. The rock in the hat never happened, in fact, it was such a rumor that was spreading so quickly that Joseph even included a disclaimer in the second edition of the book of Mormon, stating that the rock in the hat story was incorrect, and that the translation of the plates took place by using the Urim and Thummim. False teachers like President Nelson obviously don’t know the difference between truth and lies. The boat is headed in the wrong direction, it’s definitely time to disembark.

[@dr33776]

Time to wake up. Joseph smith was a conman and the Book of Mormon is a fraud along with the book of Abraham and Joseph did practice polygamy.

[@Hmcc0712]

How do you know the rock story didn’t happen? All these other people are saying it did?

[@QuinnPrice]

Questioning beliefs feels disconcerting. Jeffery Holland is a manipulator, who, like many LDS leaders, has no problem "lying for the Lord." The examples of this are endless.

[@michaeladams1523]

Directly lied to by an "apostle". Wow.

[@andycarrillo1477]

....Elder Holland admonishing this young missionary ALL THE WHILE KNOWING FULL WELL that the 'rocks in a hat' story was actually the way JS dictated the BoM....but continue recruiting tithe payers, Elder!

[@inChristalone1960]

Lies. So many lies...😢

[@Faith.unraveled]

Do you think Elder Holland knew? And is there any way he DIDN’T know?

[@lorawhitfield6995]

I think he most definitely knew! They hide the history until they can’t anymore, then they make excuses for it!

[@sinisterhug1394]

He must have known 😂 To me, this story is at a “hear-say” level (since I’m not this person,) but he’s actively tried to lie in interviews in the past, so it checks out.

[@kentthalman4459]

I know from a pretty direct source that the Q15 are pummeled by questions constantly. They also have Church historians at their fingertips so I think it would be unlikely that Holland was ignorant.

[@joanpearl7184]

Don't think it is ignorance, just think they make decisions over what people should know and what they can say at the time. Eg notice that they didn't say this is untrue, but the claim is what is your feelings about this.

[@whatsup3270]

Consider this a guy grows up only knowing the positive side of the Church for 50 years and he does well so they push him up the ranks. Almost like the guy in this story. Then he becomes a high ranking official and boom he learns the Church's actual history, now what? Call in the wife, semi adult children and tell them he has taught fraud his whole life? Or shut up and live it out as you wanted it to be?

[@JSandLDS]

I think there is a window of opportunity when someone feels like they have been duped, for them to wake up and make a change... But if left too long, 'HE COULDNT HAVE DONE THAT!' gets processed by the whole, 'God moves in mysterious ways' thought process, and becomes 'SO WHAT IF HE DID THAT?.'

[@JSandLDS]

But It's quite obvious when people that have gone through the 'God moves in mysterious ways' process, encounter a touchy subject that they don't like being discussed. They will say things like 'THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED A MILLION TIMES' or 'EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THIS' 'NOT THIS OLD STUFF AGAIN' 'THIS HAS BEEN DEBUNKED' etc. Any attempt to make it sound uncool and old hat (no pun intended) to be talking about this topic.

[@sarahpinho1114]

Just imagine all the people who were lied to for so long. I left at age 40.. at least I have the rest of my life.

[@Stittsy1963]

I first heard about the Stones in a hat translation back in 1986 while on a visa delay to Brazil for my mission. I went to South Carolina for a few months and it was then I had someone ask me about the Stone in the hat translation process. I too thought it was nonsense until I read it years later in the July 1993 Ensign. Russell M. Nelson wrote about Joseph Smith using a hat and seer stones to translate the Book of Mormon. The Church just brushed the story aside, but the leaders had to admit it was true. Back in the early 90's with the expansion of the internet, the LDS Church thought it would be a good idea to allow the public access to it's historical archives. Well, that didn't last long since many people started finding the truth about the translation process, the real reason Joseph Smith was in jail prior to being killed, and the Mountain Meadows Massacre to name a few things. The Church had to back track a bit and start apologizing or trying to explain things away. The Church then started limiting access to the archives after that. To this day, I don't think there's a single Ward or Stake building with a mural hanging in the hallway depicting Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon by sticking his head into a hat.

[@sjenson6694]

How about all the crappy art hanging everywhere showing plates that never existed?

[@nathanaeldavenport2251]

While I probably don’t have to point out that apologists for the church would also point out that this story has two levels of hearsay about what one of the apostles said… I also served a mission in the late 90s and had similar conversations with Christian pastors who tried to own us with our naïveté of the church’s history. I never encountered this specific bit of information, but I remember rejecting everything that I heard as “anti-Mormon lies.” Only to find out several years after the GTEs came out (I was slow to read them) that those “lies” were actually true, by the church’s admission. I was even told by my mission president - a religion professor at BYU specializing in church history - that those things were lies. Apparently he was lied to as well. (At least, that’s what I want to believe. I like my mission president.)

[@jaa10_86]

We had a giant meeting with all the missionaries in my mission and we were told specifically to not engage in talks about the rocks. We were told to lie and say it wasn't true.

[@IBNED]

What mission please and date of service....thanks

[@jaa10_86]

@@IBNED not sure why that matters lol. Plus I have no idea who you are. Why am I going to give you that kind of information?

[@IBNED]

​@@jaa10_86 I'm an active member who served as a 70 back in the day when the Church had 'local' 70's as a priesthood quorum. I'm familiar with how missions operate and have had several mission Presidents as friends....so I have never heard of this as mission policy. Ok...

[@jaa10_86]

@@IBNED that's the problem here. While it sure isn't policy... Some presidents aren't following it. If there's one there's more. This is why it is so confusing to understand what is true. An LDS prophet, Joseph F Smith, stated himself he thought the rock wasn't really used for translation. So why would the prophet be confused?

[@IBNED]

​@@jaa10_86That is a good question...you would think that all of this goes in a straight line with no detours but real life is full of twists and turns. The gospel is in the main lane and the institutional Church is in the second lane. Put your trust in the ever living God and your relationship with Him and allow the Church to be less than ideal will bring peace to your soul...

[@codyswan4918]

A very thoughtful video. Thanks so much.

[@kentthalman4459]

Technically, it was just one rock so clearly it's anti-Mormon lies.

[@HereForTheComments990]

No. Joseph Smith had at least 2.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@HereForTheComments990 one was used at a time. Not two at the bottom of the hat. This is a historical fact making it singular.

[@jameswines6589]

​@@devinhildebrandt2709Did the Rocks warn Joseph Smith he was a liar and burn forever in the lake of 🔥 🔥 😆😆😆😆 that's the Question

[@jameswines6589]

​@@HereForTheComments990the Rocks were like a flat screen TV 😆😆😆

[@zachgarver7922]

It wasn't rocks (plural) but a specific rock he passed off as a seer stone that he first used when conning people he could find treasure with it. Seems like it was a pretty useful rock, could find treasure and translate the word of God.

[@HereForTheComments990]

Joseph Smith had at least 2 seer stones.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@HereForTheComments990 only one was used at a time. This is a historical fact. There wasn’t a collection of them at the bottom of the hat. It was singular. This is a basic historical fact.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

“He passed off as a seer stone” where is your evidence?

[@kentthalman4459]

More accurately, "rock." Singular.

[@MormonNewsRoundup]

that’s a powerful story

[@maestrophil]

interesting - I read about it in the Ensign magazine the year I was baptized - 1977

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

Yeah! And Elder Nelson talked about it in a talk in 1993!

[@aldenebutton9066]

@@devinhildebrandt2709 When I was a member in the 70's & 80's 'seer' stones and polygamy were NEVER spoken of at church, the church changes its history to suit its own needs.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@aldenebutton9066 did you see what the fellow before me said? That he had read something in 1977. Maybe because you didn’t study enough.

[@advocate7643]

@@devinhildebrandt2709Yeah, you’re a lazy learner for missing two articles in the 1900’s!

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@advocate7643 there are dozens of other citations. Just look up FAIR specifically for these references and you’ll find plenty. And yes. If you combat or support an organization you better not be lazy and actually study. Do you oppose critical thinking and study? Because that appears to be sarcastic

[@MrFishface6]

I'm an exmo and it is crazy to me that people are ok with this. Or don't even know it

[@JIKOKALOL]

So my question begs an answer to why then can't Mormons step out of this historic deception, renounce the false works of Joseph Smith and make something right out of the ashes? The people and their love for God and family will stand....I think.

[@JIKOKALOL]

Mark Twain said it is easier to fool someone than to convince someone they were fooled. In another word.... Pride.

[@jpr9863]

Indoctrination is a b*tch!

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

Because it being a “historic deception” is your subjective feeling. Not a fact. Her story wasn’t objective it was speculative.

[@davisrand756]

​@@JIKOKALOLYou ask a valid question, and make a valid point. The reason that the truth is not told, the deception revealed, forgiveness asked, and a silk purse be made out of a sow's ear is because the brethren in charge do not want to do it. Pure and simple. The reason they are not interested in the truth is because they have become so enamored by the power and money. Why did they lie to the SEC, the church members (the common plebians), and to the rest of the investing public about their stock holdings? Because they valued deception, and the money, above truth and fairness. Devin is apparently still in the dark about that. Who can argue differently? There is no other reason. They simply would rather lie than be honest people. People (like me) are tired of it and would like to see a few changes, sooner rather than later. The leaders have lied their way from the very beginning. It's time for it to stop.

[@michelmehanna5655]

Revelation 2: 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. D&c 130: 10Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; 11And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

[@dubachatron4094]

I am not Mormon but is rocks in a hat so crazy when: Bread fell from the sky. People looked at a statue of a snake to be saved from snake bites. The Urim and Thumim. Just saying.

[@jameswines6589]

Where is the Mormon church in the Bible, have any Mormon show you

[@tylerhall95]

Well let me get this straight - Joseph Smith uses two stones attached to a bow that was buried in the earth for 1400 something years to translate ancient records. "Okie dokie that sounds great!" Joseph Smith uses his own rock (maybe some of the time), and a hat to darken out the surrounding light, to translate said ancient record - "This changes everything...?" I mean, I'm not sure who's less logical - you for focusing on this as your concern, or your supposed friend for feeling this undermined what he believed.

[@davisrand756]

I think you are missing the point entirely, Tyler. I think it went right over your head. BOTH methods of communication with the unseen world feel "off". Most rational, reasonable people today would take issue with that. But that is not the point she was trying to make here. The issue is the historical, pervasive, and unremitting lying by the church, since the very beginning. And although the brethren have now been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, STILL they admit to taking only two, when in fact they have been stealing them for years. GET IT?

[@tylerhall95]

@@davisrand756 you mean her anecdotal story is proof of lying? Also what kind of communication with the unseen world wouldn’t feel off to you? I mean the Book of Mormon is right there to read and account for - that’s more than a small bit of evidence. I think a lot of people go from mindless dogmatic church members to mindless dogmatic exmormons. I read the documented history of the Church when I was young. It was written a long time ago. BH Robert’s wrote more about all of this than your favorite internet article on the topic. Those books were brutally honest and in depth and readily available. Most people just don’t have interest in that level of reading. They are signaling and protecting their axioms at all times.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@davisrand756 David, you are presupposing the story her friend told her, and then she told to us is correct. The chance of a pastor speaking only about this topic, and Elder Holland speaking only about this one topic is extremely small. Elder Nelson spoke of the rock in the hat in a talk in 1993. Around this time period. They aren’t lying about it.

[@davisrand756]

​@@devinhildebrandt2709 The story may have been told before, but a much different story has also been told, MANY more times than the "embarassing" narrative. Those alternate versions were not the truth. You are apparently arguing that because the correct story was told (on a very limited, even an obscure basis, maybe only once?), that the lies could not have therefore possibly have happened. The lies go back to the very beginning, starting with Joseph. He lied to Emma, he lied to the brethren, and he lied to the world (I am speaking mainly about Polygamy). He lied to gullible friends and neighbors and took their money, telling them that he could look into his rock and find buried treasure. This is all well documented, my friend. And surely you cannot tell me that you are aware of this. He lied about Polygamy not being a thing in writing (right in the Covenants & Commandments). Elder Holland has unfortunately lied, Elder Oaks has lied, and I can go on and on. Surely you are not so naive and uninformed as to be unaware of all this? Look up "Lying for the Lord Ken Clark" if you need further proof? Don't want this information out? Then you too are part of the problem!

[@aldenebutton9066]

@@devinhildebrandt2709 Many members have been excommunicated over the years for speaking the truth about the church's history, calling it anti-mormon and lies, the sad irony is that the church now (because of the power of the internet) admits those anti-mormon lies are actually true.

[@chasbee]

I'm amazed so many people come forward having never heard of this. I've known this since literally from 1980 or 81. Maybe I had better seminary teachers. Don't know what Holland's remark is all about - but then again, you are saying what someone said he said. That's hearsay and doesn't stand up as evidence except under specific rules. You really need to bring your friend in and have him state what happened to make it more credible. Not claiming Holland didn't say that, but what you have here is just a story you heard.

[@Faith.unraveled]

Spoiler: it was never correlated from what I can find. If you find the seer stone narrative within correlated materials (before 2021) feel free to share! The church hid it

[@chasbee]

@@Faith.unraveled Ya, I'm not surprised. I think I just took it for granted that members knew based on the experience of my youth. Like I mentioned before, I think I just had a really good teacher. He handed out a xeroxed copy of something with text and pictures of seer stones, which I gather was not an uncommon thing around the area back then (although using them to translate a book is probaly a claim singular to J. Smith I'm guessing). Wish I still had the handout, because I have no idea on the source, but ya, couldn't have been from correlated materials. He (our teacher) actually had a TON of knowledge along those lines and shared a boatload of those sort of facts without hesitation or rationalization - just the facts. Now you have me wondering how he knew so much!

[@danl6852]

I’m sure this story was accurately told 100 percent word by word

[@GaryGuill-qc6wn]

I know my king James bible says the oracles of God were given to the Jews! Were any Mormon founders Jewish? I don't know . But I don't believe the book of Mormon is gods word even if they were jewish

[@raulh7814]

Fuuuugh… 😂 elder holland is a devil

[@bobocomments]

1. You're not sitting down 2. This is hearsay several times removed 3. The church has always had a policy of not having elders engage in historical or deep theological debates. The point is to stick to the script, which is standard for anyone filling any kind if spokesperson role for any organization. 4. The early historical department had largely dismissed anything out if oliver and Joseph's account because there are conflicting testimonies and they decided those were the only ones that mattered and neither joseph or Oliver ever spoke of the hat or the seer stone.

[@bipolarrambling242]

Does that mean that they are intentionally lying now, saying that he did use a rock in a hat, or are they just mistaken?

[@peterkennedy8011]

joseph said he did it by the gift and power of God the account you refer to is by some one else and you may have to look it i do not know how seer stones work or the Urim and Thummim work but its does not matter we have the book of mormon from that process the word of God

[@MoroniGivens-jq9mi]

he slow

[@user-ju5vh4wl9g]

I have a question. What does/did elder holland gain from lying or deceiving your friend? Like why would an elder/leader of the church stay in the church if the doctrine they grew up knowing is completely different from reality?

[@SteveSmith-os5bs]

Elder Holland is committed to protect the doctrine and the reputation of the church even if he has to lie his ass off to do it. In the 1970s there was a member of the first quorum of seventy. He was famous in the church for telling faith promoting inspiring stories at conferences about his life, he sold a lot of books and cassette tapes. His name was Paul H. Dunn. The problem was he was a compulsive liar all his faith promoting stories were pure fiction. People may have different motivations for lying. Hollands an apostle and politician. Dunn enjoyed being the center of everyone’s attention.

[@anitah2404]

They enjoy fame and fortune. Their families are set financially in perpetuity.

[@whatsup3270]

Most of them go up through the Church without knowing the truth. In their 50s they start to hear some truth and don't believe it. In their 60s they learn how much of it was Fraud, and then what? Most shut up and live the fraud as they don't want to fess up publicly they have lived and preached lies. The technique used in the story is common it is generally called " doubt your doubts, don't doubt your Church" And look in this story it worked for years.

[@spencersessions]

Rocks in a hat or not the Book of Mormon exists. If God can organize a world where complex organisms commingle and from such we can communicate with voice boxes through wireless internet on sheets of glass then why is something as simple as seeing words through rocks too far gone?? People 100 years ago would have been burned us at the stake for stating this is a possibility. God isn’t confined by our current perspective.

[@nordicexile7378]

What happened doesn't matter. It's that they LIED TO US about what happened. They are as corrupt as the Pharisees were in Jesus' day.

[@patriciafinn5717]

Bull...

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

Well, this story has a few points of stupidity. The main one, 1. In the early nineties it was common knowledge that the Seer Stone in a hat was used, there is a talk by Elder Nelson in 1993 that talks about this very subject. 2. It wasn’t “rocks in a hat” it was either rock(singular) or the interpreters. Which would not have been classified as rocks because it was a singular unit. 3. Your entire story relies on a “just trust me” source. The likelihood that they remembered perfectly what happened is very slim. Not only that, I’m sure the pastor brought up many more topics. Pastors don’t tend to just bring up one thing. So making it seem as though they only talked about that and that’s what Elder Holland called a lie is very improbable. Lastly, what’s your problem with a rock in a hat? If he could dictate the Book of Mormon through a rock and a hat, you’ll have to come up with a solution for your false paradigm to work.

[@advocate7643]

You’re entire religion is “trust me bro”

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@advocate7643 No. let’s just use an easy example. D&C is one of the best documented sources of inspiration or scripture in all of history. Try comparing that to the NT or OT. The events from D&C have hundreds of thousands of articles, journal entries, even information antagonistic to it. What makes you believe that my faith is just reliant on “trust me bro?” Also I believe in Jesus Christ, and his Church. Not based on any scripture, subjective experience, or testimony. I choose to believe. But I have plenty of evidence and experiences to back those ideas up.

[@advocate7643]

@@devinhildebrandt2709If you have evidence then you don’t believe. You know. There’s no point to faith if you have evidence.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@advocate7643 In the field of Theology having 100% defining evidence that can 100% prove a position is nearly impossible to find. Having that kind of evidence is a luxury. Evidence and critical thinking allow for faith to flourish. That is a dominant philosophical idea that is shared by most religious people. Did Peter waver even though he saw Jesus walk on water and also participated in this miracle? Yes. If you make a point like that while arguing under the a religious paradigm it doesn’t work very well.

[@Goobersnobber47]

I hear the church still has this "seer stone". Maybe one of it's seers could have looked into it to verify Mark Hoffman's forgeries? Or maybe they could have used it to show how the book of abraham was translated from egyptian funeral texts. Or maybe they could have used it to show that the kinderhook plates were forgeries. Or maybe Joseph Smith could have used it more properly to "translate" the alleged plates (that nobody has ever seen except a handful of Joseph's cronies, but even they only saw it with their spiritual eyes...whatever that means) into the book of mormon as we have it today with all its grammatical polishing, and more clearly defined theology the original version doesn't have. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe God just works in mysterious ways and I'm too faithless to see past the evidence that this entire church is built on lies and deceit.

[@firmfoundation7421]

Wow. 99 year old Prophet who has served the Lord for 80 plus years, 12 apostles, the finest leaders on earth, The most united Church on earth who are united in doctrine, have faith like little children, love others and are obedient to God. and you expect this weak type of uneducated , ill spirited drivel to move who? Only the weak and on the fringes type of folks. The power of the Prophet compared to this type of rubbish is like a 5 year old trying to argue with Einstein over a math problem. It's a joke.

[@Telavian]

Honestly why should it matter how the Book of Mormon came to be? Today we are very clinical in everything. However God doesn't work like this.

[@Goobersnobber47]

Because the man that brought it into existence was a con artist and a sexual predator.

[@CMZIEBARTH]

New scholarship is showing the rock in the hat may have never happened.

[@OuttaMyMind911]

So, new scholarship that goes against what those who were involved in recording the dictation said? From the Church’s own Gospel Topics Essay “Book of Mormon Translation”: “The scribes who assisted with the translation unquestionably believed that Joseph translated by divine power. Joseph’s wife Emma explained that she “frequently wrote day after day” at a small table in their house in Harmony, Pennsylvania. She described Joseph “sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.” Are you making up the possibility of “new scholarship” just to satisfy your own uncomfortable feelings over the rock in a hat? Then how do you explain President Nelson, held up as a prophet, explaining on video, how Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat to dictate? Is he being fooled and can’t get the memo from a god that that isn’t what happened?

[@dr33776]

First you star denying the rock in a hat and then you end up in the path of denying Joseph practiced polygamy. He was a conman, wake up

[@CMZIEBARTH]

@@OuttaMyMind911 Yep, there's info that clears things up.

[@CMZIEBARTH]

@@dr33776 Thank you for the assertion. Which church should I join?

[@OuttaMyMind911]

@@CMZIEBARTH Ok, where? And are you going to call President Nelson to have him stop spreading lies?

[@deadlyvixen]

So, since you guys know the whole truth, what else do you know? Do you know exactly how Isaiah saw his visions? How do you know he didn't hide under a bush so he could concentrate? Do you know exactly how Moses divided the red sea? Do you know how the 10 commandments were written in stone? Maybe Moses used some hot rocks and wrote what he wanted. What else do you know, since you know the whole truth and you were there to witness it? You and I know nothing. It all depends on our Faith, and how obedient we want to be to the Lord. You know that story of Moses when he told the Israelites that all they need it to do was to LOOK AT THAT STUPID SERPENT to be saved, but the know it all's didn't want to look at the serpent, THEY KNEW that they would not be saved by some serpent on a stick. They would rather die than to listen, because they knew, just like you and your petty followers. It should make you question, if you are one of those Israelites? And this story "told by your friend", you are getting one side of it, and then you are retelling it as if its the boogey man.

[@nonitodonaire2971]

tu y tus mezquinos seguidores, eso es poco cristiano

[@inChristalone1960]

Nice try. Just because there is a fraud going on here doesn't mean everything is false. The Bible ia True.

[@korymangum3836]

WhAt aBoUt tHe cLiNtOnS!!

[@whatsup3270]

Hello Elder Holland

[@ZelphBallard-bg9mt]

Sorry who are you?