"Bigger Caliber Advantage" Let's talk about it!

[@ronlowney4700]

🕵️‍♂️ In a Video of Jim Harmer's, He Showed His Hunting Partner Shooting an Audad at 350 Yards! Just As He Pulled The Trigger, It Moved 1 Step and He Shot It in The @ss! This Video is Yet Another Demonstration Why "Long Range Hunting" Should Not Be Attempted! Proper "Hunting Bullet Selection" is Something Else That Often Gets Overlooked By Inexperienced Hunters! So, It is More Than Just Cartridge Selection! We Need To Bring Ethics and Hunting Education Back Into Our Sport, To Save It! 😇👨‍🎓

[@hopefulballistics]

Agreed!

[@williamgaines9784]

Harmer also shot a deer pretty far back while using the 22 Creedmoor, which ran out of frame and no tracking recovery footage was included, yet touting it as "great".😶

[@NorthRiverGuide]

I don't think jim and his band of incompetent game shots should be an example of why long range hunting should not be attempted. IIRC that shot in question was 302yds on a ram facing almost directly away and he hit it in the ass and blamed it on the ram stepping forward. The blame should be placed squarely on the shooter attempting a bad shot.

[@davewinter2688]

71+ year old fud here. Started reloading for ‘03 Springfield 30-06 with the original Lee Loader when I was 16 years old. Good detailed episode. The correct answer for hunting is as large a bullet diameter with as much weight with as fast a velocity with the best accuracy in your rifle with as much recoil as you can handle. Sectional density and momentum are both important. More than BC until ranges get to where wind deflection can really make a difference. I definitely agree on the range limit. Most hunters, especially weekenders who don’t practice enough, can’t keep their shots in the kill zone much past 300 yards under real world hunting conditions. Cold, rain, wind, uncomfortable shooting positions, nerves (aka buck fever) etc. all take their toll. Over the last 50+ years I’ve taken more deer with my Ruger 270W with a 22” barrel running plain old Hornady 150 grain spitzers at around 2850 fps than with any other rifle I own but that’s because it’s the sporting rifle Ive had the longest. It’s only in the last 20 years that I began adding rifles with cartridges/calibers from large to small just because I wanted them including 300 H&H, 338-06, 35 Whelen and 9.3x62 Mauser. On my central Kansas farm I can have a shot across a bean field at 400 yards or 50 yards in the creek bottom timber. I’ve never had to take a shot much over 300 yards. Most closer. Modern optics and bullets have done a lot to level the playing field between smaller diameter high velocity cartridges and the slower, larger diameter, heavier bullet numbers. Elmer Keith wasn’t right about everything and neither was Roy Weatherby. Here’s some amazing numbers provided by the Big Game Hunting Blog comparing the 35 Whelen with a 225 grain bullet at 2700 fps to 30-06 with a 180 grain bullet at 2750 fps. Both the same high quality bullet sighted dead on at 200 yards. Muzzle energy for the Whelen at 3643 ft lbs vs 3023 for the ‘06. At 300 yards the Whelen still has 2,223 ft lbs and is down 8.7” while the ‘06 has 2003 ft lbs and is down 7.9”. 220 ft lbs more energy for the Whelen and less than one inch more drop. That will put the maximum effective point blank range for the Whelen at around 275-280 yards with a “Plain Jane” reticle scope. Even at 400 yards the Whelen is still carrying 1863 ft lbs with 25.2” drop and the ‘06 has 1731 ft lbs with 22.8” drop. The drop for either can be compensated for with a modern dial it in scope. At 500 yards the Whelen has 1551 ft lbs 29:38 energy which may or may not be enough for elk depending on who you believe regarding that number. Definitely more recoil for the Whelen but it’s manageable especially if the Whelen has a little more weight from a heavier profile barrel or scope. There’s a reason the 35 Whelen was called the “poor man’s magnum”. Close to 375 H&H performance with decidedly less recoil and cost. It’s the best example I can think of for the advantages of bigger diameter heavier bullets at moderate velocities. All hail the 30-06 case! Happy hunting boys and girls!😊

[@hopefulballistics]

Great comment, thanks!

[@45-70Guy]

The 35 whelen is a great example of when bigger heavier bullets equal better ballistics, but if it wasn’t for weatherby or Keith or whelen we wouldn’t have all those great books that drove at least myself to be drawn to the older cartridges. 30/06 case is one of my favorites because of so many variables you can utilize, 25/06 to a 35 whelen in the same case. Win win

[@davewinter2688]

@@45-70Guy Absolutely sir! My bookshelves are loaded down with those books. You left off Jack O’Connor from your list of prior day influencers. I have boxes with Outdoor Life, Field and Stream and Sports Afield going back to the early 1960’s or earlier. I don’t know how old I was when I first learned about the 35 Whelen, I just know I was fascinated by its description and apparent reputation among its old time fans. I’ve never owned any of Roy Weatherby’s creations but it is a matter of geographic home town pride that I live just a few miles from where he grew up here in central Kansas. I’ve known several of his contemporaries. One gentleman from our church was close to Roy and often regaled me with stories of their adventures growing up together before WWII. Sadly those folks are all gone now. To that end I do have both the 257 and 270 Weatherby Magnums on my want to own and shoot bucket list. Actually I like just about everything that goes bang. I’m an equal opportunity shooter/hunter but no suppressors or muzzle brakes needed. My smallest center fire at the moment is a .223/5.56 in of all things a Colt AR-15 Light Sporter with the markings saying Law Enforcement Export only. My other small is a Savage 99 in 250-3000. Currently have an already nicely sporterized Kar. 98 8x57 being re-barreled to .257 Roberts. Jack O’Connor, who wrote that his one favorite cartridge for use the world over was the 375 H&H Magnum, also wrote that the BOB was the perfect deer cartridge. On the other end of the scale, in recognition of your handle, I have two 45-70’s. A custom Remington Rolling Block built off a 43 Spanish. Black powder only with 400 grain cast lead alloy that I used for Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette shooting. Killed those 500 meter rams grave yard dead! My other 45-70 is a custom job built on a Siamese Mauser action. 400 grain jacketed bullets close to 2200 fps. I keep that on hand just in case the dinosaurs come back. Oh yeah, multiple shotguns in all gauges in all different actions. Some handguns in various styles too. Continued happy hunting for you!

[@45-70Guy]

@@davewinter2688options are always fun to mess around with. I’m much younger but those old books are what have driven my interest in the older calibers. Just the history of them, and the fact they worked. In my location a peep sight on a lever action is all that’s required but it’s fine to open new doors. I’d love to compare your 35 whelen loads, my current loads are a tsx going 2600 and a 250g of multiple brands going 2400. After that my accuracy drops. But some powders really can hop it up.

[@WillyK51]

@@davewinter2688 He, He, Back then Did the same. Keith loved the 333 OKH, 338-06. 👍 O'Connor and his 270 Win. Me, will get my old 1917 US Enfield rebarreled to 35 Wheelen and build a 7 Rem Mag for grandson( Still pondering if 280 AI or hot rod it to 28 Nosler?

[@michaellane4003]

I like your comments on practical hunting distance. Thank you sir 😊

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks for watching and commenting!

[@Paul-q3m7k]

I will say this . Elk drop with more authority when I hit them with my 35 whelen than they do with the same bullet weight out of my 300wsm . Saying that …. They are equally as dead and the 200 grain out of the 300wsm do a great job . I always opt for my 35 these days tho as I’m in thick grizzly country and I like having 225 to 250 grains of lead on hand for them . I now run 200 grain barns tsx , 225 accubonds or 250 partitions . I believe the 225 accubond is as close to perfect for the whelen as you can get . 2800 at the muzzle . I’m following the same velocity and trajectory out of a 3006 case as a 3006 shooting a 180 . Huge advantage

[@hopefulballistics]

I appreciate the comment!

[@Eye_Guard]

Hey, really good video, thank you. For me, I grew up born and raised here in the Inland Northwest of Idaho mountains, close to the border of Montana and Wyoming. My older brothers, dad and I are (were, my dad rest in peace since '82) not fair weather hunters, and outdoorsman. When we have opportunities to plan outdoor adventures, particularly with hunting, the weather does not effect us going or not. We go rain, snow or not, we just go. Most of my life's hunting has been in cold, rain and snow. And that means wind also. I gree up as a young boy reading and studying ballistics, my oldest brother tried keeping up with me. Him and I gravitated towards magnums very young in the '80s. At 10 years old I went from a 243 Win to a 270 Win to the 300 Win mag by the age of 14. My oldest brother at 17 years old ended up with the 338 Win mad and that was whet I gravitated towards also. We hunted Whitetail Deer but our pursuits were mainly Rocky Mountain Elk. In the 80s we were hunting in Grizzly country. We'd go deep in the mountains on foot and stay for a week. Hunting was more important to us than school. So I guess that my thoughts here are we hunted in foul weather deep in the mountains. From a 338 Win mag I went back down to the 300 Win mag and handloading with heavy bullets, the 230 grain was a favorite. Now, these days I really like the 300 PRC but it is also a bit much weight wise. So for a lighter weight rifle packing at 54 years old I am figuring on the 7 PRC with heavy bullets, like a 195 grain Berger. I have a 308 Win and a 5.56 223 and a 300 Win mag and some other that I might be able to dig out of the lake. I still like the 243 Win to flatten coyotes. And may trade my 22-250 for the 22 Creedmoor. I may even get the 6.5 Creedmoor, it's just a fun hobby. I love my 30-30 Win, and am planning on putting together a 35 Whelen. I don't just shoot across mountains but also a lot of thick forest and condensed brush. I pass up more shots that I'd usually take with my 300 Win mag and focus on getting closer. It is common to take off hunting from spike camp hunting and end up spending a night on a mountain because of closing the gap on a herd of elk. I really enjoy hunting, but if I want to go out shooting that's another sport for another adventure. I really enjoy successfully shooting game animals and love wild game meat. I don't enjoy dialing in a scope for a shot and many times am using iron sights. Though I do use rangefinders. Just not on every shot. The vast majority of my hunting and taking game has been without rangefinders. I think that this summer I'll start shooting a 35 Whelen for the upcoming fall season, or just use my 358 Win just for enjoyment once again. If it gets close to the end and still needing an elk, I'll grab my 300 Win mag. Or maybe a 7 PRC 😉

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks for sharing your hunting experiences and cartridge preferences!

[@Eye_Guard]

@hopefulballistics my pleasure 👍

[@anonymousf454]

Wish they made better bullets in the .358 caliber. One of my favorites as a do it all caliber as you can load pistol bullets, it has a large enough diamiter for cast bullets to perform well, and from what I read, hits harder and kills better than anything smaller.

[@hopefulballistics]

It’s a good caliber

[@darinbarber2922]

I'm building a 35 Whelen now and really wish there were commercial loads for the 338-06, because I'd like to have one of those built as well. I have traditionally used 30 calibers for hunting and I keep all my ranges well within reason.

[@trucka123]

Confirms my thoughts on these ideas. Real world hunting vs competition, there are different tools for the job . 30 cal is the sweet spot

[@hopefulballistics]

Sounds good

[@jrnbakken4348]

One of your best! Best from Norway.

[@hopefulballistics]

@@jrnbakken4348 thank you!

[@Freezer003]

I love what you did here. I went on this journey a while back, and to satisfy my curiosity I combined the powder efficiency with BC. I picked some bullets and cartridges and calculated how many FPE I had per grain of powder at 400 yards. To pick the most efficient cartridge for my needs. Good exercise!

[@hopefulballistics]

@@Freezer003 awesome, thanks

[@jasonacosta3860]

There's always a trade off. Great video with good information

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks!

[@rexking3698]

I completely understand. I love my 708 but recently picked up a 338 federal and started hand loading. I can squeeze 3400 foot pounds of energy out of the 338f without going over max load. It's awesome.

[@hopefulballistics]

Right on, that’s great!

[@theprfesssor]

I'm surprised the 338 federal isn't more popular

[@hopefulballistics]

@@theprfesssor I agree

[@dyouden]

@@theprfesssorsame with the 338-06. Both awesome cartridges that never really caught on.

[@anonymousf454]

​@@theprfesssorI remember reading how it did not offer much of an advantage over 30 cal. Bullet performance matters a lot and if you have a smaller bullet that performs well at a larger variety of ranges it is a better choice than a larger bullet that should, but in reality doesn't. I think just more research went into the 30, which has more to Do with it than actual potential. But I am a 35 fan, and really get snubbed because that caliber has also been largely neglected. 😂

[@jrhunt414]

Bigger hole, faster blood loss, more blood trail. The biggest wound I’ve seen is a power belt 245 aero tip with 150 grvol of black. Blood and organs everywhere. 2 big holes. Incredible expansion with full penetration. Significant recoil.

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks!

[@ryanglass3570]

Great video, you explained this really well.

[@hopefulballistics]

Thank you!

[@WillyK51]

It is very interestintg how big bore bullets (In a given cartridge)can be driven faster than the same weight bullet in a smaller one. My fav example is the 30-06 Vs the 35 Wheelen. A 30-06 200 grns bullet about 2700 Fps, A 35 Whelen 200 grns bullet 2950 Fps

[@hopefulballistics]

Good example

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Also a .338-06 A-square. Very uncommon and not well known "wildcat" but same principles.

[@cabochris100]

Energy really is not what kills. Energy and velocity factor more into bullet performance at range. The damage the bullet creates kills. Not in all cases, but in most. Just my opinions.

[@hopefulballistics]

I appreciate it!

[@WillyK51]

Back in the day. Elmer Keith swore by big bore hard cast bullets at std speed, frontal Dia the key Jack O'Connor by the very fast 270 Win(O'connor also had big bores for Africa). In my opinion a 225 grns 35 cal for whatever, but I'll build a light 7 REM Mag for granson

[@phild9813]

Yeah I’m with you. It’s the big hole that the bullet creates that ends up doing the killing work. Energy is confounded with caliber, bullet weight, and velocity, and most importantly perhaps, bullet construction. I love my 270wsm, but it’s hard to argue with the theoretical bigger hole size a 130 grain 308 would create. I need to compare velocities of the two at 300-400 yards, as i use copper bullets and need to maximize velocity for expansion purposes.

[@jasonshults368]

At practical ranges with pointed bullets and bottlenecked cases, velocity is just a number.

[@hopefulballistics]

@@jasonshults368 it’s how fast the bullet is going, that’s an important number

[@nikos6220]

The easiest example for the theory is 35 Whelen compared to 30-06. Pretty impressive. But in the end 100 ft/s are inconsequential in 99% of situations. The bigger hole through the animal with sufficient penetration has a way bigger effect. That’s why I stick to my .30s, a 6.5 has 27% less frontal area

[@hopefulballistics]

I appreciate it, thanks!

[@soundman2604]

You make a lot of sense!

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks!

[@edburash7656]

Compare a 200 grain TTSX in 35 whelen at 2850 fps vs a 30-06 with a 200 grain LRX at 2550 fps. Out at sensible hunting ranges like 350 yards and in I will take the 35 whelen every time. Puts big holes in elk.

[@hopefulballistics]

Yep!

[@Greyzonecompliant]

If you would take a air rifle with two barrels with different caliber, but the same max pressure in the tank. The bigger caliber bullet will go faster. But it will slow down faster from the air. The bigger area back of the bullet = speed. The bigger area in the front = drag.

[@hopefulballistics]

True

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Air drag isn't dramatic between similar designs in these compared calibers. When you really start dragging is when you compare even a blunt rifle projectile to your run of the mill pistol projectile. Now you're talking drag!

[@jaydurtsche2569]

Very interesting subject

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks! I appreciate it!

[@charlesburdette7497]

Fixing to try reload my own shells

[@tommyj7087]

I have been trying to figure out why my 7mm-08 struggle to throw a 175gr bullet the same speed as my 308 can. Thanks for the info!

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks for watching!

[@338Alphadog]

Heavier shorter bullets of the same grain weight will have a lower friction factor on barrel wall thus the higher velocity

[@hopefulballistics]

Absolutely

[@robertpetersson5655]

And you can have slower twist rate. You will better precision and lower pressure.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Internal, external, and terminal ballistics is a massive exercise in nuances and gradients of many factors.

[@sethperry1323]

This is why 6x45 is a bamf! It is such an underrated cartridge almost 3400fps with a 55gr nosler from only a 16" barrel... an 6mm-204 is even faster right there with a 22-24" 22-250 velocities but less powder less muzzle blast an a 16" barrel 🎉🎉

[@charlesburdette7497]

Hey just looking for a good flat shooting 3006 that’s good for a 300 yard with good nock down power plus play with plate shooting out to 600 yards been shooting 125 grain very accurate

[@hopefulballistics]

@@charlesburdette7497 right on

[@Murphy_13507]

Bigger caliber advantage. Look at 30-06. Then 338-06. More area for gas to push on in same weight bullet 338 is faster. Great video. Science baby !!!

[@hopefulballistics]

Indeed! Thanks!

[@Murphy_13507]

@@hopefulballistics light for caliber bullets in the 7-08. Barnes lightweights?

[@hopefulballistics]

@@Murphy_13507 I just bought 110 TTSX flat base for 7mm/08. Haven’t loaded it yet.

[@Murphy_13507]

@@hopefulballistics boom

[@ronlowney4700]

👨‍🏫 We Need To Look No Further Than The "Evolution of Jim Harmer" (Today's Backfire Video)! As He Has Gained More Experience, He is Now Identifying These 4 Cartridges (He Hasn't Given the 30-06 a "Fair Try" Yet) For Most People: The 270 Winchester, 280 AI, 7mm-08, and 6.5 prc (Which He Has Already Admitted is Not A Good Choice For Elk and Bigger Game)! Eric Cortina Went From a 7mm-08 to a 280 AI For His Hunting! I Could Name Many U-Tubers That Would Pick the 30-06 as Their First Choice! So, The 30-06 Case and Some Close "Derivative" (If Not the 30-06 Itself), Seems to Be The Best Choice For Most Experienced Hunters! 😯

[@lorcan2316]

I wonder, could the 6.8 western with like a 130-140gr load be chambered in an AR10? Talk about perfection in a gas gun

[@Accuracy1st]

While watching the video I started thinking about the calibers I've used which span from .243 to .338 in a variety of cartridges. I was thinking back of all the game I've taken. I have ONE cartridge that has dropped the animal where it stood 100% of the time, no matter what bullet, speed, shot angle and distance - the 6.5-284 Norma. Only bullets I've used in the 2 rifles I have in that cartridge include 130 Nosler Accubond, 127 Barnes LRX, and 140 grain Berger VLD Hunting. Not that this has meaning but I've taken a LOT of animals with a LOT of rifles and cartridges. I bought quite a few identical Tikka T3x rifles all in 30-06 with the intent on only keeping one of them, maybe 2, in factory configuration. The rest will be converted to 280AIs, but now I'm thinking another 6.5-284 Norma and a 270 O'Connor - which, is nearly the same thing as a 270 Ackley Improved. And, this is not keeping the 270 Win brass and changing the shoulder but rather necking down a 280AI to 0.277.

[@hopefulballistics]

Right on, I love the 6.5-284!

[@hopefulballistics]

Is the 270 win your favorite cartridge?

[@ronlowney4700]

👨‍🏫 Derek, Have You Though of Starting Your Own U-Tube Channel? Your Knowledge and Experience Would Be Valuable! 👴

[@Accuracy1st]

@@hopefulballistics Well yes and no. My first "deer" hunting rifle was a Ruger M77 right hand in 270. Had it just long enough to use one season. While perusing through the latest hunting magazine at the time I noticed the back page had the ALL NEW RUGER M77 MARK II. Pictured was a right and left hand. I shoot left hand. Called my favorite gun and pawn and they just unboxed a leftie to put on the sales rack. My hunting buddy's dad was the manager. I spoke with him and told him I was on my way. Traded it, they mounted my scope for me and charged me a whopping $20 in trade. Of course this was another 270. I had never heard of it but when I was 19 or 20 years old my boss showed me his Howa rifle chambered in 270. I knew of only a 30-06 and 308 at the time but found out 270 was the most popular in our area so I went with it. My 3rd and I think 4th rifles were also 270s. Next I got a 7RemMag and 300WinMag. I guess the answer to your question could be answered this way, I will NEVER be without a 270 Winchester. I've lost track but I am pretty sure I have at least 9 or 10 rifles chambered in 270 and only one is a custom build. Sold my other 2, one of which I really regret. I used that money to go down the 7PRC build road and now have too many of those.

[@Accuracy1st]

@@hopefulballistics What I should have done is not taken to heart all the 270 hater discussions I had while I was young. I had dreamed of hunting elk for a lot of years. I was pretty naive when I was 18, 19, 20 years old. I worked in a family owned gun and archery and shooting range store in Tucson back then and learned a lot. I watched some early hunting videos where the elk guide toted his trusty 243 and yet some customers were also hunting guides and a few would say, "don't ever ever take a 270 or smaller on an elk hunt, just ain't big enough." Granted, we didn't have the variety of bullets we have now but we did have the partition. Anyway, I got a great discount as an employee so I though to myself, what better way to blow an entire paycheck every 2 weeks than to spend every penny here at the store on more rifles scopes ammo? So I started collecting. My biggest cannon for the longest time was a 300RUM and I finally felt "prepared" for that rifle elk hunt but even by then my first elk was a 340 bull and I used my Matthews bow and gold tip arrows and a good ol 3 blade Muzzy on him. Haven't killed an elk since then but I did put in for cow elk Utah this year. Fingers crossed. Went to school with a buddy from Utah. Been hunting with him every chance I draw but that was when he lived in CO. Lots of mule deer under my belt now thanks to him. I built a 270 for him and his family, stainless Rem 700 with DBM, 24" #3 Lilja barrel, HS Precision stock and a Leupold scope. My way of thanking those that hook me up on hunts. Just recently when we were talking about me putting in for cow elk I asked his thoughts on using a 270 on a cow elk. The response was multiple pics of his daughters and all the cow elk they've killed over the years with that 270 at a wide range of distances using the Barnes 130 grain TTSX over H1000 powder his local friend loads for him. It was at that moment I thought of the thousands I've spent (all fun though) on all the cannons I was told were a must when it comes to killing elk, all the way up to the 338 Edge. I could part with every rifle I have and keep one 270 and it would do everything I want and need. And don't ever buy into the CRAP some spew that it is marginal at long range such as 800 yards. I watched a guy turn a pronghorn boiler room into a red running faucet with his 270 Win shooting 110 Barnes TTSX at roughly 900 yards. He did have a 26" barrel.

[@evanwindom]

If the surface area of the tail of the bullet is a deciding factor, then the shape of the bullet, and not just the diameter, would have a bearing on the result. By that reasoning, two bullets in a .30-06 would have different velocities if one of them was a boat tail and the other was not. So, there's more to it.

[@ronlowney4700]

🤠 I Am Glad That You Brought Up Barrel Life! This is Exactly Why The 308 Winchester and 30-06 Will Be Around For Generations To Come! Though Many People Don't Value That In Their Youth, They Will As They Get Older! Young People Like Fast Cars, Fast Women, and Fast Cartridges! But, The Mature (Smart) Adults Know Better and Value Reliability and Longevity As Their Lifrstyle! 👴

[@hopefulballistics]

It’s not the be all end all, but I do value barrel life.

[@ronlowney4700]

🙄 Having Owned Several Wildcats - That Have a Barrel Life of Between 300 to 600 Rounds - I Can Tell You, Joyfully, How Nice It is To Own Rifles With Longevity and Low Maintenance (And, One That Doesn't Cost $10/Shot 😬)! I Understand Both Sides of the Argument, But To Me, The Extra Juice Just Isn't Worth the Squeeze Anymore! 🍋🍹

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Monolithic copper projectiles have a reputation for penetration, because they simply cannot and do not disrupt fluid and tissue like expanded lead projectiles can, and do. Which creates the most ethical and lethal impact? Hands down, the lead one.

[@hopefulballistics]

It just comes down to meat damage potential

[@exothermal.sprocket]

@@hopefulballistics Every single shot will damage some meat. It's unavoidable. There's not much to harvest around the lung or high shoulder area in general. If a projectile functions like its supposed to, it will transfer its motion into the vitals, not the meat wall or bones, not the hide. People don't harvest vitals. Early expansion is failure. Late expansion is failure. Both shots are lethal but that doesn't disqualify failure. Proper terminal function is expansion in vitals, directly in the core of the animal. The motion will drastically slow and not blow a big hole out the back.

[@bryanbest5113]

Lawyers also neuter some calibers. Two notable I can think of, 7x57 vs 708 and 45-70 vs 450 Marlin

[@whitesturgeon]

I believe this is a dangerous myth.

[@Snailz5]

And if you’re talking about the loading manuals being slow, they have to stick to the spec pressures and overall lengths. Thems the rules. But the only fair point I will grant is that bullet manufacturers don’t typically give pressure and they give light max loads and that shit is indeed lame. That’s why I typically stick to Hodgdon or other sources that provide pressure data to determine max loads.

[@davewinter2688]

⁠@@Snailz5Lee publishes pressures provided by manufacturers except for Reliant. Both CUP and Piezo PSI readings.

[@texpatriot8462]

Lawyers didn't neuter the 45-70. There are a lot of older rifles which are not safe with the same loads that a Ruger No 1 will easily handle.

[@davewinter2688]

@@Snailz5 I forgot to say I don’t know why Aliant doesn’t provide their pressure numbers to Lee. I haven’t purchased a Hodgdon manual for many years so don’t know about pressure numbers in their publications.

[@ChronicalsofAl]

Where do you hunt? The answer will determine what is considered long range.

[@hopefulballistics]

I agree generally speaking

[@tacticalmattfoley]

I hunted whitetail almost exclusively with a 30-06 BAR Mk2 Safari for years......the difference in recoil between a 150 grain to 165 grain isn't noticeable.....the difference in recoil between 150 grain and 225 grain is so severe that the latter is almost intolerable. However, the recoil from a 225 grain fired from a 300Wby Mag (Accumark) is less noticeable than the 225 grain fired from a 30-06...and the BAR is heavier. I think the way magnum powder burns contributes to this.......

[@hopefulballistics]

Interesting, thanks

[@winstonskafte5505]

Guys that grew up using a 22 mag to hunt deer dont quite get it but to each his own I guess .

[@jonfarrar9666]

I am one of those guys. God bless

[@mr.mr.3301]

Have you played with suppressors yet?

[@hopefulballistics]

I haven’t

[@ronlowney4700]

I Hope That You Will Take The Time To Watched "Cliffed Out Adventures" Video On " Why I Stopped Hunting With the 308 Winchester!" TESTIMONY FROM TWO MONTANA ELK HUNTERS ABOUT THEIR "HANDS ON EXPERIENCES" USING THE 308 WIN. ON ELK! 😬

[@hopefulballistics]

@@ronlowney4700 why do you want me to watch it?

[@ronlowney4700]

It is a Great Topic of Discussion on What is Minimally Needed For ELK Hunting!

[@woodsman132]

Speed is not as important to me as S.D. I need it to penetrate.

[@Snailz5]

Copper. Done.

[@hopefulballistics]

I understand that

[@SaneAsylum]

@@Snailz5 Copper has a much more narrow window of acceptable expansion. Bonded lead commonly expands well between 1800-3000+fps (some down to 1600fps). Monos to get the same frontal surface area on the low end, need 2000fps (though they will advertise at a velocity/mushroom that most find unacceptable). That means that monos give up about 200 yards of usable range over bonded lead bullets.

[@Accuracy1st]

Light per cal all coppers great way to go despite low S.D. I've never recovered one on anything. 270 Win, 110 TSX, TTSX 308, 130 TTSX and so on. Hammer bullets McGuire Ballistics Barnes Fast, deep penetration, meaning also through the tree and dirt beyond the game animals lungs. You get the best of both worlds, speed and penetration

[@Snailz5]

@@SaneAsylum 2000 fps is by no means a hard and fast rule and there are plenty of bullets that expand well below that. Cutting edge maximus expand in the 1300s, certain hammer line bullets in the 1400s, Certain LRX and TTSX give good expansion 1600s and 1700s. Badlands bulldozers expand in the 1700s. Not advertising, in gels. The same standard that bonded bullets are held to. If I'm paying roughly the same price for roughly the same performance, I'll take the one that doesn't put lead in my food and won't be banned.

[@atairuy]

All benefits unless long range

[@hopefulballistics]

Yep

[@wcb5890]

All things being equal and achieving say 100-200fps more with the larger caliber, will lead to zero noticeable actual difference in effectiveness. There are ZERO definitive tests to make a conclusive statement that one is better than the other on game. Also the energy separation lessons as weight drops. So two projectiles say 120grs everything equal but the larger caliber pushed 200fps faster only produces about 300ftlbs more energy. Step that up to 200gr it is about 500ftlbs more energy. However, again, at normal hunting distances (300yds and under) in the real world animal is dead and won't notice the difference in 200-300ftlbs of energy difference. Now throw in all the different bullet constructions out there and this wholr argument is thrown out the window.

[@hopefulballistics]

Thanks for the comment. 100 to 200fps is exactly what it is. Would you rather not have the extra muzzle velocity? If you don’t think it is noticeable on game…that’s fine, but I’m not really understanding your point of view.

[@wcb5890]

@@hopefulballistics you keep sayimg there is a clear advantage...I guess that is true if you are just talking about velocity numbers. But when you talk about actual hunting situations at "normal" hunting distances there is not a clear advantage. For most bullets you are still well inside proper operating range, wind difference is fractions of and inch and distances are know and shoulf be accounted for so drop is irrelevant. Now wound channel/hole size will also be realistically negligable...I watched the video obviously and fail to see anything that would lead me to believe if you shot 100 deer at 200 yards with say a .284 140 Accubond @ 2850fps and the same with 6.5 (.264) 140 Accbond @ 2675fps, there would be a clear or obvious advatage to the .284. I have shot and guided 100s of kills most (90%+) 300yds and in...I have not seen a clear advantage of caliber with everything being equal like the example above. I have noticed bullet construction play a more critical role and actually reverse the larger caliber theory.

[@hopefulballistics]

@@wcb5890 besides the bigger bullet hole that I very briefly mentioned I wasn’t talking about terminal performance. I was talking about added velocity. This is a ballistic advantage plain and simple.

[@greybone777]

I defer to Elmer Keith on this.

[@Snailz5]

I think you’re down a bad path with that 130gr TTSX load. You’re overpressure and seeing the velocity spike that TAC is known for once it gets there. Idc what the brass looks like, you’re pushing 100 fps faster than you should be seeing based on book data. You’re pushing a 130 faster than book data for a 125 with a 24” barrel and TAC. I’ve seen the same thing with that powder in various bullets and it’s not the number to hang your hat on. I’ve seen it group on those loads as well, but you’re on a razor edge and a 15 degree temp swing is going to significantly alter that loads behavior to the point I wouldn’t trust it. Load how you want, but holding that up as a comparison point to the 270 WSM without the optimal powder is not a great argument.

[@hopefulballistics]

2 loads after the 3300 fps is when I got pressure. You do realize every chamber is slightly different? My seating depth could be much different than SAAMI COAL. You shouldn’t just assume I have pressure and that I don’t know how to recognize it. Velocity can be a sign of pressure, but usually it’s a jump, not steady rises. I am always aware of the temperature when I’m shooting.

[@Snailz5]

@@hopefulballistics I assume that I've loaded with TAC and seen velocities way above where I should be without any other pressure signs. Upon looking into the issue, I've seen several reports of a velocity spike when getting over pressure. I decided that I'm not the owner of a magically fast barrel and that I shouldn't be 100 fps over pressure tested loads without being over pressure. You can decrease pressure with seating depth, but with a squat little bullet like the 130 ttsx, I strongly doubt you're gaining 100 fps. I think it's much more likely you're in the camp of people who aren't seeing pressure signs, but are operating at like 70k PSI. Why not send it into a pressure testing service and prove me wrong. You'll get a video out of it and I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong. Hell, I'll replicate the load myself and hunt with it if it proves to be safe and accurate.

[@hopefulballistics]

@@Snailz5 max pressure for 308 Winchester is 62,000 psi. I’m a half grain over Barnes Published data. I’m getting 50 fps more than their data. Yes it’s a 22 in barrel, so that adds a little to the difference. What if it’s 62,001? What about 65,000? Who cares? No over pressure signs. I shot this load in the Spring, not winter time. I don’t see why you can’t take that as a win.

[@Snailz5]

@@hopefulballistics You're a half grain over Barnes data. Barnes uses Winchester brass, which is notoriously spacious compared to most other 308 brass and the general consensus is to come down 0.7-1.0 gr from Win loads. With 2 less inches of barrel you should be about 40 fps down so you're 90 fps over book. You're likely playing around 65-70k psi.

[@ChronicalsofAl]

A lot of assumptions and generalizations to make a questionable and somewhat fuzzy point. I believe I understand the point but not really sure why you made it

[@hopefulballistics]

I made the point to show an inherent advantage when making comparisons.

[@ChronicalsofAl]

@@hopefulballistics advantage of what? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm asking for real. You are saying that…308 and.284 fall in a sweet spot, comparatively to the likes of .243, .264, .323, .338 etc... but your reference points are primarily short action cases. I don't see your comparisons holding much consistency when speaking about Long or Magnum actions - maybe that was the point?

[@hopefulballistics]

@@ChronicalsofAl watch it again, I made it clear. All things being equal, bigger caliber has advantage because of surface areas

[@cabochris100]

Barrel life is meaningless on a hunting rifle. I laugh when the effiency crowd whines. The same with complaining about ammunition costs. Compared the the costs of hunts, even expensive, inefficient ammo is cheap! Like the 28 Nosler. Who cares. It gets the job done. Again an advantage.😅

[@hopefulballistics]

Unless you want to hand it down to generations. The 28 Nosler might be burn out faster than you’d like for instance.

[@charlesburdette7497]

Hey just looking for a good flat shooting 3006 that’s good for a 300 yard with good nock down power plus play with plate shooting out to 600 yards been shooting 125 grain very accurate