Horus Heresy 2.0 Tier List

So today we do something ive been avoiding for a while.... go through a tier list of the legions and other forces.
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And most importantly Enjoy!
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[@razalfraz6618]

I never got to play much 1.0 but so far I have thoroughly enjoyed the game system I know there are things they changed that seem downright criminal but in my opinion it’s still better then 9th edition 😅

[@BearfootMiniatures]

preach mate preach! couldnt agree more

[@14DEADSOUL]

A million miles ahead of 9th. I don't need to rewrite the game rules with house rules to enjoy a casual game for HH2 😅

[@Gutterman-tn2ry]

Little trick for Night Lords. Preferred enemy works with only a single model in the unit having it, so if you throw your praetor with his master crafted thunder hammer/paragon blade (whatever you chose) in with a terror squad he gets to reroll both 1's to hit and one hit from Master crafted, giving you a lot of consistency in smaller points value games for praetor dueling. My praetor is a standout from the Zone Mortalis I've played.

[@warpaintjj]

Thanks Gents, brilliant informative & good humoured discussion. More please 👌

[@Basskin]

❤

[@BearfootMiniatures]

cheers mate, will have to try and do more of these broad discussions rather than individual guide things!

[@treebongos4765]

1 thing with the deathshroud is they have 3 wounds and battle hardened so they arent going anywhere too quickly and they have fleshbane hand flamers + power scythe so they remove anything that isnt a terminator. in addition they all have melta bombs to remove tanks and terminators so they are quite good, they are in general great terminators but don't throw them into other terminators. Great video, I think you nailed pretty much everything!

[@Basskin]

Just wish they had a 4++ (personal view!)

[@treebongos4765]

@@Basskin yeah I'd like a 4++ but i think with what they seem to be build to take out the sweeping advance is more useful and my brother has a ridiculously hard time taking out 10 of them throughout an entire game, but ive started to see the use of a smaller squad as a retinue with a banner for line

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I actually like the fact theyre in tarty armour, I think it fits well with their weapon atleast (IMO the 6+ rend isnt going to smash through other termies and squads like that) so may aswell be able to finish off a lighter squad by the sweep

[@wallerl2896]

As a Raven guard player I think the reason why they are strong is because of the Ravens talons and also the decapitation strike rite of War.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Ye mate 100% on that, the talons rending value is great, and the extra VPs massive Cheap night vision aswell is spot on!

[@wallerl2896]

@@BearfootMiniatures yeah the extra vps is really good when combined with preferred enemy. Night vision is decent too along with +1 bs to the wearer. The rending claws are very good, to the point that if you went biomancy then you actually make them worse.

[@chrisgraham8368]

I agree Luke Waller, I’d also say the mobility is awesome

[@cymrodave]

Great video chaps, some really interesting perspectives. Maybe I’m biased but word bearers are great this edition. The rite of war combined with the characters and special units are so good. On paper the gal vorbak may seem a bit weak but you have so many attacks that you always rend plus combine that with the rite of war and they can do some super damage. Worth saying that the dark brethren rite of war has no restrictions and you can apply it to lots of different lists so it’s really versatile unlike some other restrictive rites of war. Also we are still waiting for the demon rules so that might mix up the force a bit given that Logan and Erebus can summon.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

That point on Dark bretheren is actually a massive bonus, I tend to take Hammer of Olympia in IW for similar thing, just throws into most lists easily for a bonus I maybe dont have enough experience tabletop wise with them but will be rectifying that a bit soon!

[@andrewmarrington5654]

Sunkillers are doing a lot of lifting for the 3rd Legion - I better finish building mine! Thanks for the video.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

No worries mate glad you enjoyed it!

[@princeofcrows9672]

Great Vod lads! As always so much can come into play with every game, gonna see what I can do with some Word bearers now!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Got a word bearers game early jan so won’t be too long!

[@neilkirkley1500]

Great content guys, I was really hoping for more discussion about Blood Angels, you chaps have decent insight, hoping for a Legion review.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Hey mate glad you enjoyed it! We did a legion review for BA a while ago actually, I can’t add it to the guide playlist off my phone for some reason but I’ll try to remember to add it tomorrow so it’s easier to find!

[@neilkirkley1500]

@@BearfootMiniatures hi yeah I've actually seen it since I left the above message, great video, thanks. I do have a question though, you spoke briefly on Angels Tears, I've got a unit of 5 with the grenade launchers and it's like 200pts, that seems crazy expensive for 5 guys with 1W and a 3+ save, I know the grenade launchers seem pretty decent but am I missing something or are they just expensive?

[@Infernal_Puppet]

A White Scar recon company gets to roll four dice when going first or seizing. You have more than a 50% chance of winning each.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Ooooooh thats crazy!

[@Infernal_Puppet]

@@BearfootMiniatures I realized, your primary detachment doesn’t need to be the recon company either. You can take a minimal recon detachment with your chog bros and still get the four dice.

[@Basskin]

@@Infernal_Puppet Totally haven't been doing this.

[@americanshogun609]

Also, for Night Lords, Jago is probably the absolute best or second best challenge character in the game and he can deep strike with Terminators. That's absolutely deadly.

[@James-37]

How does sevatar get deepstrike?

[@americanshogun609]

@@James-37 I got the rule messed up now that I think about it. He can just give Terminators in a Detachment with him the deep strike rule. Still pretty good!

[@James-37]

@@americanshogun609 no worries thanks mate. As a nightlords player i thought there was a sneaky trick id somehow missed...

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Something I’d not factored in actually Sevs challenge power, definately a great boost to them! There’s no right answer to the tier list haha!

[@randyoverland7221]

He's good, but no non-primarch character beats Sigismund in a duel. He can't be instant killed, while his sword causes murderous strike and forces a re-roll of all saved invulnerable saves. It's ridiculous.

[@thedarkapostle6025]

Was a really enjoyable Batrep gents, thanks. I find it crazy how different you're seeing the Legions stack up vs each other. I'm seeing IW as an A to S tier army; you're correct about your opponents list being able to mitigate or Legion trait, but with the prevalence of Contemptors & Spartans on many lists we get a distinct advantage. Being able to mince the cover save of a piece of areas terrain & make it difficult + dangerous is huge and I think over looked a lot of the time. Getting to Fury of Olympia every turn while rerolling 1's with pinning bolters everywhere puts in a lot of work. Not to mention some of the best Legion units in the game with Iron Havoc's not necessarily as good with Lascannons as Sun Killers but Getting precision shot(6) and a bevy of weapon choices (free auto cannons). Tyrants aren't as good as Fulmentarus sure they can hide behind walls and shoot indirectly but we're IW we don't hide behind walls like cower children and get 48" range + Flakk missiles. Iron Circle are some of the sexiest models in 30k, but they're meh rules wise and Dominators are super points efficient 45 points/dude for the 1st 5 then 40 points/dude after four WS5 with a Thunder Hammer and either Hatred Automata or a 6+FNP with Perturabo (that's cheaper than WS4 Cataphractii with a Thunder Hammer 175 + (5×15)=250). Maybe not S tier but I think a strong A tier for the 4th.... don't get me wrong is rather go with yours cause if I'm winning with a B tier army I'm extra happy 🤪. Cheers 🍻

[@BearfootMiniatures]

cheers mate! Its entirely dependant on local meta I suppose! 100% agree on alot of the points unit wise though I tend to find a few things (and this is gonna sound negative but for the sake of discussion) Hammer of olympia i find is eclipsed (as its a ROW choice) by the fact deathguard get to move and fire by legion trait. I keep using them (cos its our IW thing) but never seem to find shrapnel bolters are worth it due to the 2pts and lesser range, where i see pinning coming off a lot is largely when it has shellshock or fear) Havoks I agree on when used with Autos (being cheaper) but the ignoring shroud from having a techie on a HSS with Las I find is invaluable (and a 10man las Heavy support + techie is cheaper than a 10man Las Havok squad, which seems crazy)

[@thedarkapostle6025]

@BearfootMiniatures I've gone Lascannon Havoc's as well as the autocannons but that's more to ease of only needing to remember the one set of rules lol. I agree HoO is eclipsed but it's still pretty good when looking at the game overall. I agree the 2 pts is steep for losing range and ap, if that also upgraded the pistol as well I'd be happier. Pinning is really a luck thing but getting to say oh, take a pinning check please over and over again is hilarious; and with reactions (broken but I'll use them to they're nerfed) letting me shoot a lot more often causing more checks does pay or over time.

[@IVIaskerade]

Dark Angels are a B tier army with A tier special units (maybe even S tier). Similarly, Salamanders are a D tier army with A tier special units. Scars are definitely C tier. They aren't actively bad, but both death guard and space wolves end up being faster in practice which just feels bad. Emperor's Children are a B tier army with A tier special units.

[@IVIaskerade]

TSons are C tier just because as good as their psychic stuff is, you have to pass your tests to do anything at all.

[@IVIaskerade]

Custodes are decent but suffer from people speccing to defeat other armies' elite terminators which also works pretty well against them.

[@Basskin]

I...would agree with some of what you said. Salamanders units being A tier... nah, B tier at best. Scars I guess people are just playing them against you wrong? If you're saying Deathguard are faster than them "in practice" I 100% believe you've not experienced the hell that Scars can offer.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

We sort of just had to make some tough calls on these mate! I mean it was like 2hours long as it was and we did this then talked on it while we were packing up and then a few hours on a christmas party about it! No perfect list I suppose so it all just comes down to having a laugh at what we got wrong!

[@thelostman88]

I will defend the nightlords terror squads get a twelve inch fear aura so with night fighting and shell shock from roter cannons that’s a minus 3 leadership when they do the pinning check

[@Basskin]

Indeed! It's why they're solidly in the A tier! They're an awesome legion and a terror (pun pun) to play against!!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

100% agree mate they’re super good this edition, especially with 10 dudes and an apothecary popping the legion bonus vs 10mans and tanks!

[@CloneDAnon]

Fists are SSS tier and RG is A tier. There is a thing that works against Scars is that reaction that makes their charge disordered.

[@taffeh]

regarding scars, thats 1 thing on golden keshig only, not the movement and shenanigans about the rest of the army. For the Keshig, their scatterbolt launcher can pin, but a stormseer with telepathy is an autotake.

[@fortheemperor8764]

I'd love to see a emperor's children guide from you guys

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Trying to rope Henry into it but if not with him it’s on the list to do soon!

[@bequakynskagroupie3751]

WAIT!!! Are you guys from Seattle?! I’m guessing not?

[@BearfootMiniatures]

No, Manchester UK but james is into his football (your kind)

[@nathanfee9644]

Really liked it!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

awesome to hear, cheers mate!

[@froghugger41]

This tier list looks wildly different from the other ones I've seen!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

We’ll there’s definately one errant one in there I’d stick by most of them though, I want to get another person on (who’s been the terror of our area, Chris with his Iron Hands) to see how it’s actually changed in the last months tbh Iron hands number 1…. We maybe need to do a vid on his list alone… One massive thing is IW normally to other lists I’ve seen We just don’t see many (any) tanks around here other than agreeing to take some from a coolness perspective

[@tomdudley5314]

Love to see the group debate!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

cheers mate! im waiting for the storm to hit aswell haha

[@sublyme1994]

Finally, a video acknowledging how strong SoH can be when playing around their strengths

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I think there was a fair bit of thinking they were bad at the start of h2 (as the setup of the army was so different to how they played in h1) They’re definitely better than they got credit for I just think you need to be conscious of getting in fast and with multiple units/pinning to soak up the hold the lines! After that it’s just letting them do work

[@절대블보해]

Great vid guys! can you part section by section for each legions? (or pin times)

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I’m away this weekend but I’ll set an alarm to do it when I get back!

[@davidwoolley4610]

Very fun and informative vid:)

[@BearfootMiniatures]

thanks mate! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@florianrappelt9568]

I think Salamanders should be C Tier. Their Special Units (better then most of the other C Tier Legions) and Primarch are good (not the best Duellist but one of the tankiest and killst Deathstar/Dreadnoughts with his instant kill and gives the hole army stubborn which is quite good). Their Legion Trait is good with Dreadnought (which are amazing). They have many units you can't charge because of the overwatch (Pyroclasts) or their Deathstar which the Salamanders Specific Reaction. They have 3++ Cataphractii and Praetors. All in all i think they are easily the same level as World eaters, Blood angels etc.

[@Basskin]

Pretty sure we covered sallies in their entry. They want to be close, but when they're close they're not amazing they're just average. Vulkan doesn't Instant Death Dreads, as you can't Instant Death Dreads. They just take D3 wounds. Which is nice. But it's not amazing. And your hammer still gets shrugged off 50% of the time vs Cataphractii so you're not really killing Deathstars with him either.

[@Basskin]

I'd not be adverse to bumping them up a level though. I do like Sallies.

[@florianrappelt9568]

Yea i know He doesn't instant death but the multiwounds are nice. Should have made it clearer sorry. I don't say they are top Tier but are a the same Level as the other c Tier (if you build both as optimal as it gets) and you get better termis with 3++ than most legions. I personally think pyroclasts at your frontline are scaryier then rampager or Similiar units because there aren't many units who can take 2 shooting attacks from them. So i think they are a c Level. The other c Level don't really have much more then them in my opinion. At least i think its an interesting discussion :D

[@BearfootMiniatures]

potentially actually: I need to get more games in vs sallies tbh (against them all haha, what point is enough!)

[@Infernal_Puppet]

He should get brutal 2

[@newtpondskipper]

One thing that is disappointing about the Solar Auxilia is that with the massive nerfing of tanks, artillery and superheavy tanks they don't have the ability to threaten marines. Dracosan alone being nerfed drops them down.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

100% agree on this mate: having just expanded into them (with limited experience of playing with them in 1st) im struggling with getting enough Ap2 in there tbh!

[@UntiltedName]

Essentially as DG you treat heavy supp squads the same you would a special wep squad. It works well with heavy melta, flame and volkite. The others you wouldn't really need them to be that close. Though if you want all the terrain shenanigans you gotta give that up. Fortunately grave wardens as troops is a worthy trade off. Deathshrouds armor annoys me too. Lots of books claim they are in Cata. While others talk about how customized it is to the point where it falls into neither classification. I can't see FW updating the kit but it so desperately needs it. They're as big as plastic MK4 marines, lmao.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Hopefully we’ll get a bunch of the legion specifics updated once the generic range is fleshed out! How do you find grave wardens? I’ve not seen them much and when I was talking to leggy (in the legion guide for DG) he wasn’t a massive fan?!

[@UntiltedName]

@@BearfootMiniatures I like them for mulching power armor so the rest of my list can focus on other things. Good luck charging them, too. Typically I have Typhon with them (or Deathshrouds in the other Rite).

[@ThePGCVideo]

After playing scars at the last whw event, I must disagree with your reasoning for the scars. Just overall play, on paper your correct. After all the prep games and events I’ve used them they are so swingy. You either win turn 1 or lose turn 2.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

This is actually the one I was thinking of with the (There'll be atleast one) I need to get more experience playing them, so im actually playing pete whos been on the channel with them before on thursday!

[@ThePGCVideo]

@@BearfootMiniatures tbh the rest of the list I agreed with. I ran brotherhood at the November event at whw and went straight down the middle (2w, 1d, 2l). It was a fun army to learn but really hard to play. Both of my losses were turn 3 tables. The sheer firepower from most lists doubled me out constantly. In other words anti.-grav is painful. Other than that tho great content keep it up. :)

[@taffeh]

@@ThePGCVideo were you playing scars or played against?

[@ThePGCVideo]

@@taffeh played with.

[@taffeh]

@@ThePGCVideo I've not really suffered using them - only against Og on the channel and thats cause he stole the initiative. He and I played the same mission think you and I (if you had Alphas in the first WHW event).

[@zombyoli3681]

You should do a Primarch knockout tournament to decide the best one for 2.0!

[@Basskin]

Good Shout!!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Definitely a great shout, need to assemble the team!

[@zombyoli3681]

Could do a legion specific terminators face off too! Keep up the great content lads

[@Basskin]

@@zombyoli3681 Careful, Max'll have to start paying you if he steals all your ideas!!

[@zombyoli3681]

@@Basskin no worries mate, I’ll send over my PayPal details later 🤣😭 Keep up the great content!

[@papanurgle9015]

Still wish EC Phoenix terminators were any good. 6+ rending and murderous strike just doesn't work with the low number of attacks. I still run em cuz models gorgeous but they just never perform :(

[@BearfootMiniatures]

100%, I like what they’re going for but I’n a world of mass doubling out they just don’t perform up to the level of others in the legion

[@Road.To.Reikland]

A Tier? My arse!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Just cos you make them D tier on channel doesnt mean they are!

[@FlourEater]

I still love my Prospero nerd army!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Hahaha I think they’d be enjoyable the play, big risk but potentially reward on those psychic checks!

[@ortegaja0704]

IH Immortals + Company of Bitter Iron is ridiculously durable. Gaining line for a tasty 3+/5++/4+++ near objectives.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Pretty savage tbh, Chris the IH player in our area doesn’t have “enough” he says to do COBI yet but I think he’s currently painting about 80 or so the romper goes!

[@ortegaja0704]

@@BearfootMiniatures I have 40 and they do work. Pricy, but a TH and cyber familiar on the Sgt takes it up another notch

[@dasmas310]

My main disagreement is somewhat specific: death shroud are bloody amazing.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I get they’re massive tubs of wounds, I’m just skeptical on their output

[@dasmas310]

@@BearfootMiniatures it's all about context really. They have amazing output tbh with their cheeky scythes and can even hurt dreads in a pinch but it's a decent powerful potentially scoring unit in a shooty army. + Traitors have a bit more difficulty in getting line imo

[@hirmetrium1]

Raven guard just can't be S tier as they don't have a character like Sigismund or Kharn. It's a major deficiency in their army list building options. It's also why imperial fists and Ultramarines are S tier, as they have the full package. I'd argue an S tier has the most options and the most flexibility as well as strength. Just because Ferrus Manus is the best primarch in combat doesn't make Gorgon's less trash or give them an option in characters.

[@KnightsofTitan]

Funny thing is that they do have a character that could fill that role but gw/FW won't.make home a model

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I think they’re good enough despite that tbh mate, the strength of their talons, infravisors and mordeythan is just so good

[@BearfootMiniatures]

In the form of Sharrowkyn? He’s just not as prominent universe wide I suppose, have they stated they won’t make him?

[@tn00bz]

Don't world eaters get a +1 strength chain axe for free? That just makes them better blood angels

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Ye I agree with you tbh One thing doing this video has done is made me talk about it much more so it’s flagging up things all the time! do and WE are potentially better than BA tbh, I’d say it comes down to how cadre weapons are vs perdition and dawn breaker weapons: The chain axes makes the base legionaries better because it’s a second bonus over the +1A (wounding marginally better with 4+ rerolling vs 3+ rerolling) but the BA rules also effect axes and other truly killer weapons

[@andycmacp]

As soon as people realise that Raven Guard loose if they are not in combat by T2 then I think they might go down a tier!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I’d only half agree tbh mate, with the power of nightfighting now and access to infravisors. They can be great at shooting aswell!

[@notare]

Im so happy i picked Salamanders a month before the edition dropped 🥲

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Ahh, hopefully you’ll enjoy melting people with clasts regardless, they’re certainly not far off others (marines are still quite a tight group, certainly not in winnable) but I feel your pain (my solar army I made for 1.0 is feeling very weak atm in 2.0)

[@treydudley7966]

What makes the Porphyrion unkillable? AV14 without a flare shield isn't so much in a world of lascannons.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

A misread rule haha, we were referencing a (mistakenly read in our part) rule that it can only take 1 HP from one attack and how it interacted with multiple shots pooled by the same squad) BUT it’s not actually the case!

[@Orlunu]

"I don't rate them as highly, they're still S." Ultramarine special units in a nutshell lmao. 😂RG give them a run for their money on that, but nobody else does.

[@Basskin]

Amen!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Spot on mate!

[@olofbrundin296]

This would be my Marine list. Dont know enough about mech, solar or golden boys. Left strongest > weaker S tier Imperial fists and iron warriors. A tier Spacewolves, Dark Angels , Alpha Legion, iron hands, Deathguard, nightlords B tier Ultra Marines , blood angels, Emperors children, word bearers, world eaters, sons of horus, Raven guard. C tier White scars, Salamanders and thousand sons. Reasons: Imperial fists got all the candy. Got no downsides, best shooty army and strong and durable melee units. Not a single downside and even their wargear is amazing. Iron warriors are strong vs both tanks and dreads, in shooting and melee. Dreads are a main stable in most armies and so is atleast a few tanks for transports. Spacewolves best melee army and if not the best primarch. Darkangels are versatile and got strong units/characters/gear. Alpha legion are dodgy as hell if played properly and can have the best units in the game as choice. Iron hands tough vs shooting that is the main focus of 30k. Deathguard move and shoot heavy weapons and tanks decent gear and special units/characters. Nightlords a bit niched but would work if set up properly, relies to much on deepstrike/melee for it to be super scary. Ultramarines decent but best units in the game. Blood angels decent legiontrait and really good units. Emperors children +1 initiative is nice, shriekers works well in melee, bad legion units. Word bearers pretty meh all around, good advanced reaction thou. Can get better with demons of ruinstorm( maybe) World eaters really 1 sided, rampagers devestate everything but are a glasscannon. Butchers arent good enough and to expensive. Delivery problem. Sons of horus delivery problems and expensive meh units. Decent legiontrait but worse than iron hands since melee only. Raven guard seems like a mix between nightlords and Alpha legion but worse than both. A dull switchblade in most situations. White scards move fast........ got some tricks but not enough to impact much. Salamanders bad legion trait, good special units pyros and firedrakes that saves them from beeing utter trash. Short ranged and flamers are terrible this edition. Thousand sons, mindbullets just dont work in 30k. Once characters are gone have no legion trait at all. Special legion units arent anything to write home about either. Snipers/alpha legion could remove your legion trait round 1 if unlucky.

[@Sommeill]

Balance is a fucking joke in this half assed edition.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Its interesting hearing the different views on this tbh! I think scars and Iron warriors is where me and james think most differently than others! Could just be down to the local meta: tanks have massively dropped off in our area (most armies I now play have so few tanks now...) Its not that the actual benefit is bad, infact its great, but how I see the structure of armies now lascannons just deal with the armour without needing the +1 Scars aswell, I think the reaction is massive, and It triggering off any unit so cant really be shut down as well as bonuses to going first! I agree with alot of what your said at the bottom though!

[@olofbrundin8038]

Well the good thing is that opinoins differ. That points towards stuff beeing "balanced". The problem are the armies that have consensus in most communities/ KZbin videos aka fists sallys and thousand sons. If everyone says that a legion is op or bad..... it probably is.

[@DaddyWarCrimes78]

Telepathy is the only thing the XV have going for them to keep the army threatening. Blade Occult are terrible because they're so fragile. Sekmet are way too expensive for what they do. Osirons are overpriced. Any unit with no characters in it literally gets no legion trait. Any attempt to make use of the legion traits or any psychic powers has a chance of killing your unit, and a single opposing librarian or Esoterist or anyone else with a psychic hood cripples the entire army. They get three warlord traits, but only one of them is worth taking because you need to make your powers reliable for at least one unit. Crimson King is bad because Deep Strike is a death sentence with how easy it is to give your entire army Interceptor reactions, Achean configuration relies on overpriced Castellax Achea. And Magnus is limited to a single power, making him entirely mediocre.

[@Basskin]

All valid, which is why they're C tier. 👍

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Assassination of squad sergeants crippling the army aswell is one we missed! You know TS are actually one of the ones I'm unsure of, maybe should've put them lower; what propped them up a little is if you roll decently they could do work! (which i know cant put them much higher cos there'll be those times they just dont work...

[@amroth_painting8319]

@@BearfootMiniatures 1k sons can work amazingly and absolutely cripple the opposing army but pretty much no one has an army kitted out for it because while almost all factions have had a change in how they play thousand sons have changed completely, they play more like v1 ultramarines now.

[@DaddyWarCrimes78]

@@amroth_painting8319 Thousand Sons can spam Telepathy and deny their opponent the chance to play the game, but that's about the only strong option they have. And their legion trait being tied to sergeants also means artificer armor tanking (a trick the other 17 legions can use just fine) is a horrific gamble.

[@amroth_painting8319]

@@DaddyWarCrimes78 it’s definitely a strong and ready ability but you could always try taking advantage of the rest of the options that the army allows. A lot of them are risky and therefore you get an unfortunate buff to using msu and are mostly glass cannon instead of the old easy endurance build but it’s still fun and effective.

[@Instar_nine]

This should include all the factions not just astartes Meta or whatever you call it will shift once rebels cults daemons and more sola players are coming on board The table will be saturated in models and balance lists will be required Taking iron warriors with Las cannons and the missile Terminators will no longer be viable with hundreds of troops to kill Meta is now more lots of elite troops and dreads, no vehicles due to iron warriors and NLs penetrative bonus but it will shift to spamming models daemons cheap troops and countering that Reactions need to be fixed, interceptor fixed do flyers can be used Artillery is taken out by flyers etc so flyers have there place

[@Basskin]

You know those missile Termies also have anti-infantry rounds on them too? And to make a balanced list you'd need some anti-tank such as a unit of Lascannons?

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I actually 100% hope this happens on the cults/militia, didnt quite kick off as much into a mixed humans and marine meta in 1.0 as it couldve done but if theres support would be awesome to see (the basic humans giving all our marines "scale") Agreed on the flyers aswell!

[@DirtyMardi]

Any questimations about when balance updates would come out? I feel like the game is too unbalanced atm and leaves a room for “that guy” types, and IF, UM, RG are fairly overpowered, especially the first 2. I bought the starter box but haven’t decided on a legion yet, mainly because the ones I like are either OP or UP. Also SoH you can actually just delete their legion trait by hold the line reaction, no matter which player does it, and the same with rare multi-charging. Their units and characters are also super expensive for what they do and special weapons are sidegrades at best. Low C, high D imho from what I’ve seen from them. Edit. in Warhammer TV battle report the other guy used hold the line reaction with SoH and they still applied the -1 strenght so I guess that settles it. I was wrong. 😅

[@Basskin]

We've just had an FAQ so.... no idea. :D

[@Road.To.Reikland]

The SoH Legion Trait isn’t effected by Hold the Line. You just have to make a successful charge nothing states it can’t be disordered.

[@Basskin]

@@Road.To.Reikland Would make sense why they ranked them lower I'd they've been playing them incorrectly!

[@Infernal_Puppet]

@@Road.To.Reikland a disordered charge turns off any bonuses you get from a successful charge, such as rules like furious charge, sudden strike, and the soh trait. Other legion traits specifically say that they work even if the charge is disordered for that reason.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I wish I did mate, I don't know your group but id say just get stuck in with whichever legion you like (especially if your worried about one being OP, like fists are great but you could lean into the traits of them and dont take them so far)

[@Basskin]

And that 1 will be White Scars

[@BearfootMiniatures]

You took part! you cant spoil it! Regretting it yet? My voice id destroyed due to discussign it with chris so much on saturday....

[@Basskin]

@@BearfootMiniatures Nah, I'm still happy with it.

[@Virmie]

Interesting that you talk about how the game is a shooting dominant system and then dunk on mechanicum for their bad melee

[@Basskin]

Think we dunked mech for being bad in general.

[@Virmie]

@@Basskin There are some pretty stand out units, namely myrmidons, thanatars, vultarax and thallax. Very anecdotal but I've played like 20 games with my mech and haven't dropped any of them, even against two separate stone gauntlet players and several primarchs. Keep up the good work though, loved the vid

[@BearfootMiniatures]

On the mech and other things side we potentially need to do an extended thing on them: we sort of facetiously said they were all terrible (though I do think they’re way down from what they were and marines as a rule are the better armies in the game)

[@Basskin]

@@Virmie This is fair, I do rate Myrmidons quite highly tbh. Good shout. We should have probably put more effort into the non-marines bit.

[@aaronst.pierre3080]

Daemons of the Ruinstorm should be an F as they don't have rules yet. 🙄

[@BearfootMiniatures]

De-fault! The two sweetest words in the english language!

[@joaquinarias4915]

I play Salamanders. idk if I am lucky, my opponents are bad, or I am good at the game (idk ab this last one), or some combination of those 3, but I have managed to win like 75% of my games. I have played maybe 25 games, and lost 5 or 6.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Definately err on good at the game mate!! On this entire list I think every army is able to win, I don’t think any army just flat can’t beat any others (it’s why we stuck to the higher ranks at the start then had to spread them down in the middle) But that being said err on your doing good!

[@KnightsofTitan]

Looking at trying salamanders. Got any tips for a first time list builder for 30k

[@BearfootMiniatures]

@@KnightsofTitan James is actually trying his hand at coming up with a competitive list Just asking his initial thoughts he’s going: - Pyroclast as his scoring (as per the RoW) I’d be putting these in rhinos (just a small amount of points for protection from small arms/mobility) - Vulcan star, drakes and I imagine a Libby as that’s the new favourite star thing (for biomancy) I’m terms of main list building tips if definitely have a tactical squad to make 3 scoring troops (I think it’s actually really important to have atleast one scoring your not expecting anything from EXCEPT to score)

[@guilliman1990]

irons are A minimum ravens are D at best.

[@AirsoftAddicted]

I've lost any interest in watching anything further after A tier Sons of Horus. LOL. It's one of the weakest Legion in the whole game. It totally sucks. You can't get efficient in to combat with SoH - they are expensive as hell, so you are outnumbered. You can't get to combat efficiently as transports are MUCH worse in 2.0. Expensive as hell, Dreadclaw lost assault vehicle and the worse thing, after transport is destroyed anything inside (each model, no way to prevent test) is getting S8 hit. S8 kills SoH instantly. SoH are pure crap, outside pure "hobby" side co collecting and painting, they are just waste of time.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Ah mate I get it, one of the reasons I avoided a tier list for so long, but hopefully until then you had a good laugh!

[@AirsoftAddicted]

@@BearfootMiniatures The Heresy of Horus is an expensive game, requiring the player to assemble a lot of miniatures, the enormous effort is needed to paint them... And in the end, it turns out that the main legion in the game - the one named after the Primarch - is simply a cesspool. Sorry, nothing to laugh here.

[@Basskin]

Yeah, sorry that was just to Troll Phil. We didn't leave them in A.

[@myrar8708]

post your army list

[@AirsoftAddicted]

@@myrar8708 Nah, we can make an experiment instead - Find me a single battle report on YT, where SoH are victorious in 2.0 (outside single game, where enemy reserves did not appeared at all). A single one.

[@leonordiaz2371]

A combat legion trait > "if you can get into combat it's pretty good" you don't say?

[@BearfootMiniatures]

haha thats for the caveat that it it doesnt help you get there in and of itself!

[@benjaminbrenner745]

Yeah... no

[@lockeloeckchen]

Vulkan Lives! I absolutely disagree with salamanders on D. I already play my salamanders in 7 games against World Bearers (2x), Alpha Legion, Mechanicum, Death Guard, Sons of Horus and Space Wolfs and have only lost one game (Sons of Horus).

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Hey! I definately dont think any of the legions are out of the running by any stretch and theres some decent tricks in there, im gonna come down on your skill as a player!

[@lockeloeckchen]

@@BearfootMiniatures Thanks a lot

[@Kiickman]

Justaerin have one job smash other terminators and Drednoughts with thunder hammers. They will wreck everything. Abaddon with 10 Justaerin thunder hammers, 2 melta, and 8 with volkites. That's Deepstike in close to the enemy is what SoH is all about. Decapitated strike hard and fast.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

I like the idea of It mate, I jsut want them to be a bit scarier than they are! (and their axes to be great at that, maybe ap2 at I, cos if thats fine for suzies then surely for the warmasters best!)

[@guilliman1990]

lol what??? custodes roll every one in combat. they are straight disgusting. easily S for combat

[@BearfootMiniatures]

your prob right mate i mean i dont see how any legion takes them out in CC, I was glossing over them due to lack of my own data on them tbh (not played against them since 1st!)

[@guilliman1990]

@@BearfootMiniatures the shear amount of ap2 in combat is terrifying. An the t5 st5 2 wound base they run on makes them even more brutal.

[@Sommeill]

After some time playing 2.0, the new edition really feels like a downgrade.

[@guilliman1990]

In many ways it is. Heresy actually slowed vs first Ed now.

[@Basskin]

Basically approach it as a different game. It's not 2.0. It's 1.0 of a totally new game.

[@3v3rhard]

Agreed back to 1.0

[@newtpondskipper]

While there are some nice things for the most part I have to agree.

[@Infernal_Puppet]

The rules are generally have less flavour. I like the warlord traits and change to the psychic phase, I like the reactions with a few tweaks. The rest is rather meh.

[@guilliman1990]

legit you 2 have the most backwards views i have seen on this.

[@Basskin]

Yet somehow able to go undefeated at events.

[@taffeh]

who do you think has the most correct views and / or where are you getting your data from?